Hey, everyone.

Welcome to the podcast.

It's so good to have all of you here today.

Before we get started on today's interview, I have two announcements.

The first is that I will be teaching a how to stop procrastinating class this fall.

And this is the class I needed, oh, maybe 25 years ago, actually, maybe about 40 years ago.

I'm really excited to teach the class.

And if you want to hear more about that, go to barbradling.com slash course, and just sign up to receive emails for when, you know, when I have a new class out.

I'm working on planning that now.

So I don't have any particular details on the class at that moment.

And the second announcement is kind of tied into this first one.

I was going to teach a class on how to renew your mind this fall.

And what I decided is just to leave my class available on the master class on transformation.

I'm just going to keep that up and running all the time.

So you can purchase that at any time.

And you can also find out about that class at barbraveling.com slash course.

That class does teach you how to renew your mind.

It teaches you how to go to God for help with life and just kind of process life with him.

And so I have both those classes available.

And Whitney's interview, I think I interviewed her, I don't know, a month or two ago, a long time ago, but I'm actually still using some of the tips that she gave in her new book and in this interview in my own life.

So I hope you really enjoy today's interview.

Let's get started with that.

Hello, everyone.

Welcome to the podcast.

I am excited to have Whitney English on my podcast talking about one of my favorite topics.

We'll be talking about organization a bit.

Welcome to the podcast, Whitney.

Thank you, Barb, so much for having me.

I'm excited to talk to you guys today.

Good.

I'm excited to have you here.

And why don't you start out by just telling us a little bit about you.

Okay.

Name is Whitney English.

I live in Oklahoma with my husband and our three kids.

They are 15, 14, and 12.

I am historically an entrepreneur.

This year, I started trying to introduce myself as an author and artist.

Which is a little bit new for me.

My second book just came out on April 29th.

So if you can't call yourself an author by book two, there's other like mental, there are probably some mental gymnastics that I need to be practicing.

So author and artist and yeah.

Yeah, and really beautiful.

I don't know, do you do the art that's on your blog?

Like those...

Do you do that?

I do, yeah.

Now, some of it I have used AI to generate more recently, which has been...

I didn't even know you could do that.

That's interesting.

Yeah, it's been really fascinating.

I'm a bit of a tech nerd.

My dad was a computer engineer, so we always grew up with computers, you know, kind of before anybody else, before friends had them kind of thing.

And I was always, as the oldest kid, like trying to, you know, find pictures of unicorns on the internet or something.

And so it's definitely like me to be a bit of an early adopter.

But it's also, as an artist, I think that it's also very interesting to use AI to sort of like prototype my own ideas.

Because I also paint that that's primarily that's primarily what what I do is paint on.

Canvas yeah okay well anyway you guys should you should check out her website and her blog because it is very beautiful and and your book is called organize first decorate second how to go from clutter to creativity and I feel like you know if you have a decor decorating book usually people aren't talking about organization.

So I'm curious to ask, you know, why did you add organization to a book on decorating?

Because my editors told me to.

No, no, not.

Yeah, not, not really.

They, they did.

When I said I wanted to write a book about home, they always, they said we were always looking for a great organizing book.

Apparently there's a good lifespan or sell through on organization books and uh but I I am interested in organization and the title actually came from I was just puttering around the house one day trying to probably hang pictures or something I don't remember exactly what I was doing but in sort of talking to myself in my head I I said Whitney come on organize first decorate second like there's an order to do in you know there's a good order in which we can do these things and I thought that would be a good book title and so So then whenever I was talking to my editors about what the book should be, they they picked that one as sort of the subject to focus on.

So then I dove into the writing part of it and started trying to figure out how do I how do I.

Take the, you know, you have to get really analytical.

Sometimes you, you sort of have to like unravel your own habits in order to be able to share with other people.

Like the stuff that is instinctive to me is what other people want to read about.

So it was kind of like, how do I structure my life?

How do we order this?

How do we get things done around our house?

Um, and it's not all just about making sure your your drawers or you know the junk drawers are organized that in the book I talk about systems and seasons and rituals and all different kinds of things that can add structure not just to our homes but to our days and then the decorate part of it is more like, you get into to meaning when things are beautiful you get into when you that that's where you so that's that layer of story that really can add meaning to our lives.

And I think that's something that we're all looking for these days.

And so, and I love how beauty points us towards greater things.

So I wanted to write about that too.

Yeah, I love that.

And I, and I like your approach too, where you don't say, Hey, you know, go out and spend a bunch of money and you'll make everything beautiful but you start out with you know taking what you have and maybe you might want to change things around in your house or you know get stuff from the thrift shop or whatever so it just seems like it's a real approachable method I

Hope so because we do not we have been through a very tight budget season you know um, I don't think anybody writes a book to make money.

No.

But so I hope that people, I hope that people realize that I do try to, I mean, just because that's where we've been and writing about it.

I hope that a lot of it does come across as practical, practical tips, inspiring tips.

I hope there's enough stories in the book to kind of keep people interested in, you know, I don't know.

Yeah, I would say yes to all those because I feel like it's very readable, fun to read, but also super organized because I can even go through each room in the house and say, you know, how would you organize that room?

What kind of systems could you use?

So it's just very practical.

And one thing I like because I think my problem when I when I approach any project including homerization writing a book making a class anything is like I like okay what's the perfect way to do this and I want to find this bright shiny wonderful system and it's so intimidating I give up but you you have a different approach and you you ask a question um What question you ask in the book?

Because that's the question that's changing my life over here.

If you remember what it is.

Well, I do remember the question that I started asking.

I mean, I start, I opened the book by telling the story of how I read the life changing magic of tidying up.

And this idea of her question, Marie Kondo's question was, does it spark joy?

and um, To sort of build off of that, I think what you're saying is, has this served its purpose for me?

Is that, nope, that's not it?

No, actually, no, the question I was asking, or the question in your book that changed my life is starting with what's not working.

Oh.

Although I was curious to see the direction you were going there.

Yeah.

So, no, I think, so now we have two questions to talk about, the what's not working and then, which I could, it's so interesting that that one stood out to you um I have a friend one time who told me one time that she started asking herself what would this look like if it was easy and I don't talk about that in the book but that's that's sort of the question that I ask myself when I am looking at a project is you know it's this big project I want to get to Z and I'm at A and how what's What would it look like if it was easy?

And I think that the magic in asking any of these questions is that it makes you reverse engineer.

It kind of takes you out of this goal that you're trying to achieve, this end objective, and it puts you back in a little bit of the present moment.

So you can kind of look around and say yeah this isn't working like this isn't I mean that I think that's I think the questions all serve the same the same purpose um the idea of something sparking joy I mean I'm this is just my phone I'm holding you know does my phone spark joy no it doesn't let me find something that does spark joy you know here's my dog let me pet my dog for a second um, You know, if you were working on a project and, you know, I'm just going to use like painting, for example, if I stop in the middle of my painting and look around me and say, okay, what's not working?

It's probably, I've probably built up some clutter around.

Me that just

A little bit of order could restore clarity to, you know?

Um so I think that I think that anytime we step outside ourselves not that it's almost like sometimes we are just blinders on so bent on getting to the end destination that we forget about being in the present moment and and I think that's what all those questions do is they pull us back into the present moment and help us gain clarity because we can look around and actually see what's going on instead of just having their eyes, you know, fixed on the horizon.

I think both are important.

Yeah.

And the way they're opposite questions, because what's not working, because just say, I mean, you can use that in any area of life.

Like, let's just say somebody's having struggles in their marriage.

They might say, oh, let's just throw out the whole marriage.

But you could just say, no, what's not working?

Okay.

Is there any way with this one area that's not working that we could tweak it and make it better, you know, make it spark more joy?

Or you mentioned like you know the entrance of the house everybody just throws their shoes in the ground okay what's not working this isn't working so how can we change things and create a system so we don't have all that mess there or our work day what's not working if afternoons don't work okay what can I change to make afternoons work for me now right and so how does the flip side work on that and sparking joy on that

Well, I mean, just to, if afternoons, afternoons are hard for me.

So, and I realized that a couple, I mean, just to piggyback off of the example you just mentioned, I realized that a few years ago that, you know, the kids are coming home from school.

I'm tired.

I'm at my low point.

And so we started this ritual.

I don't even talk about this in the book.

And we didn't maintain it.

sometimes I feel like I'll go make muffins, but we started this ritual of having tea in the afternoons, like good old fashioned three o'clock British, you know, have the queen over whatever, you know, tea.

And, and it, it did something to restore us and make the afternoon work for us.

Um and i think that so i i read this is my second book my first book was called a more beautiful life, and in that book i talk a little bit about goal setting and this idea that to ride a bike in order to keep our balance we have to keep our eyes focused on the horizon like we do have to have that end point in mind.

We have to have, I have, I have a vision of what I want my life to be like when I'm 85 and the conversations I want to be having with my kids and my family and their spouses, their kids when I'm 85, you know?

So.

So to if if something happened in my marriage and I used the if I used the vision of the this is where I'm trying to go, this is the point on the horizon I'm trying to shoot for.

And then the question, what's not working to combine those two things?

Yeah, it helps you keep from throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I think, you know, what?

Like, let's just get rid of the parts that's not not working, you know, like you said.

Yeah I like that and I think one of the things you said in the book to make things work is a system and that you have one chart in the book I really like and the chart is you know is there do you need to create a system or you do you just need to finish what you started so can you

Tell us a little bit about.

That chart oh yeah I thought it was good it was really interesting chart even to evaluate you know are you having both of these problems or what but tell us a little bit about that chart.

Yeah.

You know, the funny thing about writing a book is you end up putting all that stuff on paper that, I mean, I feel like there were times I'm like, I don't even know if this is going to make sense to people, but you have to sort of trust the reader.

That's what all the writing coaches say is you have to, you do have to just kind of put it out there and see how people receive it.

So I love hearing, you know, your takes on it and thank you for reading it.

But But I love complicating things.

I just, I do.

My mom said growing up that I always knew how to gild a lily, you know, like take something that's already beautiful and like, let's just add yards of purple polyester lace to it.

What could not be delightful about, I mean, I just was always like playing dress up and just always trying to make things fancier than they were.

And I think that there's this analytical side of my creative mind that really loves being in process.

Like, I don't like finishing things.

I really like the messy middle.

Like, that's where the magic happens.

And the longer I stay there...

You know, almost like the more I stew in it, the more discovery I feel like I make.

So for me, the hard part is actually pressing publish, putting the thing out there, it's putting the paintbrush away, it's putting the pen down.

And in order to keep me, I recognize this about myself.

And even as I am telling you this story, I sort of realized I haven't exactly talked about this, But I had to recognize that I loved putting a plan in place.

Like, I could just get so analytical and so creative with the plan, but I wouldn't actually go set out and live it.

You know, I would have a whole, in college, I made this whole calendar and it was like, I will rollerblade at this time.

And I will study at this time and I will go to work at this time.

And I took this whole piece of paper to this real estate office where I work one semester and showed it to one of the real estate agents there.

And she looked at it and she was like, aren't you supposed to be rollerblading right now?

I was like, give back to me, you know, like, because I had put all the work and all the creativity into making this plan, but I wasn't actually getting out there and doing it.

And I think a lot of us do that.

We spend all our time planning or thinking up, like, how could, you know, how could this work and then not actually executing it?

And so while systems are very important, systems keep so much order in our lives.

I mean, we all have systems, you know, even just your morning routine, like, what do you do?

You wake up and you know if I do not have my coffee in the morning something is broken I mean for the rest of the day something is broken so we all have those things that we those creature comforts those things that we fall into and it's good to recognize those because when you recognize what's happening you can decide what you want to change about it so I really wanted to talk about systems but I also need I also wanted to share with the reader that it's important, to get out there and live life, to press publish, to, you know, focus on finishing things.

And I think I say that in the book, focus on, that was another thing that kind of came to my mind that sort of become an ism, like an operating principle, just focus on finishing things and momentum will take care of itself.

And there are days whenever I wake up and I'll just be like, okay, I don't want to do anything today, but I'll just look around and say, okay, let's finish something.

What can we start with?

Like, what can I finish today?

And so for anybody who feels like you're just frustrated and not making progress in life, I would say just finish things.

I don't know if anybody else is like that.

Do you ever feel like that, where you feel like you just have a lot of projects you've started and then none that you've finished?

Oh, yes.

In fact, I mean, I have this quote written down from your book, and it says, I've tried every system under the sun.

The thing is, my mind doesn't work in neat little boxes.

It's more like a beehive, buzzing with activity, ideas flying in all directions and no clear path forward.

Somehow progress happens, though how it is is anyone's guess.

I'll sit down to write, and suddenly I'm researching the mating habits of sea slugs or alphabetizing my spice rack.

And by the time I remember my original task is 3 a.m.

and I've managed to write exactly two sentences.

The result, a nagging sense of guilt, suffocating relentless that another day I sit by with nothing tangible to show for it.

Another planner abandoned, another to-do list half finished.

And as I read that, I'm like, okay, I totally get that because I'm such a distractible person.

And if you're a distractible person, it's hard to finish.

I love starting things.

I probably had 10 books started and half finished before I finished one.

And I

Think part of.

It is I get bored halfway through or like halfway through, I start thinking, oh, this is just terrible.

It's not working.

And so I abandoned it and start some new shiny project.

But I, yeah, I guess the question.

I mean, one thing that's helped me work wise is just say, okay, I'm going to do two hours on my main project for the week, then one hour on podcasting, one hour on admin, and just trying to stick to those three time slots.

But yeah, I'd love to know how you talk about being an ADHD person in the book.

I'm that way.

You know,

How do you.

Make yourself follow your routines when you're that type of personality?

Right.

I mean, I definitely lean into the things that I already do.

So I, I call those hinge habits.

I like that.

If I drink my coffee every morning and I am, I mean, unless something goes really wrong or I'm not in my own house, like if I'm traveling for work, I will find a cup of coffee in the morning.

And I realized a few years ago, like I wasn't washing my face in the morning and I was starting, I had always had pretty decent skin, but I was really starting to fight with it.

I was like, okay, when am I going to remember to wash my face?

I started doing it when I was drinking my coffee.

You know, so I, I try to find something that I do always do if there's something else I want to add to that.

And that way I can kind of build the routine.

There's a book called Atomic Habits.

That kind of helped me.

I'm probably borrowing some of that language.

I don't know if it's all of it, but, but just this idea of like, let's start with the one habit that's already in place and let's just build on top of that.

Um but I also think and let me let me chase this wrap this rabbit backwards you said, you were talking about oh I was going to talk I was you said books that you've started whenever I am looking around me looking for that like I'm just in finishing things I'm just trying to build momentum.

I'm just trying to pack the dopamine in my brain.

And I really do think that you can be in the middle of a book and be like, this book is not working for me.

But then what drives me crazy is sticking that book on the shelf, because I still know I have never finished it.

I'm still not going to get that, that dopamine hit off of it, that it's going to propel me forward to do other things.

So yeah, So I'll ask myself, what would it look like if this is easy?

And then you just read the first paragraph and the last paragraph of every chapter and you've read the book.

Close it.

I should clarify, I was talking about writing books rather than reading books.

Because with reading books, if I don't like it, I just stop reading it and I don't feel a bit guilty and I put it in the pile that goes back to all the little libraries in the neighborhood.

So I don't have any qualms about not finishing books, but it's the writing books.

If you already spend all that time writing half a book, it feels like you should finish it.

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way when you're writing books.

It only works that way when you're reading it.

But like, what would it look like if it was easy to write a book?

I thought the book is definitely, have you written a book?

Yeah, yeah, I've actually published nine books and I have, I don't know how many more half finished.

But I think, you know, perfectionism, I feel like you have to let go of perfectionism.

Even like podcasting, I found out, and because of your book, and it was on this podcast, and so I was just reading your book, and you said, you know, make it easy, what's not working.

And I think one of the things that stresses me out about podcasting is coming up with questions, because I always have to reinvent the wheel, even though every author has their own questions.

So I actually made a template for it after reading your book.

I wrote down, look at the author's questions, cross all any I don't like, and add a few more until I get to six and ask AI if I need more help with questions.

So just this simple, simple process.

But I think from now on, I will use that.

And then

Podcasting is going to.

Be so much easier.

And all I had to do was tweak it.

Yes.

So, okay, now I feel like I need to ask you some questions out.

Tell me what books you, are you, you write fiction or self-help?

What, tell me what your genre is.

No, no, I write nonfiction.

So I have books on overcoming procrastination,

Interestingly enough, emotional eating.

Letting go of negative emotions, renewing of the mind, Bible studies, that sort of thing.

Okay.

So one thing, and I do talk about this a little bit in the book but one thing that I'm fascinated with is the idea of narrative and story and so this is just sort of like a a hack I've adopted and sort of navigating through life and I and I I talk about this and I talk about this in the book like in in terms of how does it apply to our homes but, a story is the same thing.

It's a character who has a problem, meets a guide that has a plan that results in success or failure.

I learned that from Donald Miller, another great author.

But.

And so I'll start looking for those points anytime I'm trying to, uh, like if I'm stuck at a party and I, I, I'm an introvert most of the time and I can turn on that extrovert, but it doesn't always stay on.

And, and anytime I start to get, get tired, I start looking for those things.

Like, so like, who's the character?

I just kind of wonder if this is a framework to kind of like apply to your podcast, you You know, like, you know, characters always have a good ambition and they always have a struggle, you know?

And so when I was writing, it was like, okay, the struggle was organization.

I mean, that was, the desire was decoration and the struggle was organization.

And so as a nonfiction writer, you sort of put yourself into that character role.

And Miller also said that the character has to be relatable.

Thankfully I tend to be self-deprecating but he says that like I'm you know someplace in the first five pages of every book like the character has to wet the bed or something like that so when you're writing memoir you have to be the one who's willing to admit your flaws and your foibles in order for people to be able to relate to you and um and then I start looking for so character problem guide.

And so what I tried to do in the book was introduce each chapter, I tried to introduce, the solution as the guide or like, you know, maybe it was a person in the story who was pointing me in the right direction or something I had picked up along the way.

And then the plan is, of course, because it's a self-help book, like the actionable tips at the very end.

But when I started looking, looking for story everywhere I went, I started finding it.

And, and one of my favorite things is one, it's a one sentence story.

You're going to love this.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.

You've got a character.

Character is the wretch.

That's also the problem.

The guide is amazing grace.

And the plan for us that resulted in success is the grace that saved us.

It's it's it's it's a story in one sentence which also just goes to show you like how powerful story can actually can actually be so anyway I say all that because I'm sitting here going I wonder if you could apply story to your podcast yeah.

I wonder and also to you know people's house so whoever's listening that's struggling with the organization of their house or struggling with their afternoons where you're wrecked by afternoon and you just let go remember we are in the middle of the story.

We do have God walking with us.

We have the Holy Spirit counseling us, but you know, there's some practical things we can do too, to change life.

Like I also, after reading your book, I did create, or wait, that might've been somebody else's book.

I can't remember.

It might've been yours.

A Morning, Afternoon, and Late Afternoon Routine.

I can't remember if you talked about those books.

I know you talked about routines in your books.

And one of the parts of the late afternoon routine was a 10 minute cleanup.

So I just set the buzzer for 10 minutes I go around tidy the house I

Can't remember that.

In your book but I couldn't believe what a huge difference it makes and those are really they're already tied in

So the hard part for me I think is and just be totally honest it's like it's just actually doing it I mean afternoon, slump time like I I you know it's funny because we're recording this in the afternoon because I miss the time slot we scheduled in the morning.

And typically I try not to record in the afternoons just because I kind of feel like everything slows, like my brain slows down a little bit.

You know, just that after lunch, we should bring back the siesta, you know, like the idea of napping.

I love the nap.

I am naps are holy.

Um but it's hard to sometimes in the middle of the day to find you just need that perspective shift that change and the hardest part is actually standing up and it's just me and standing up and doing it you know setting the time and doing it and sometimes I just have to turn off the overthinking part of my brain but just do it just stand up like all you have to do is put one, but forward.

So anyway, those are some of the battles that I feel like I have faced and you could blame it on ADHD.

You could blame it on social media and screens or I, you know, I mean all the things that are distracting us these days.

Um.

But sometimes that's the biggest battle is like actually putting one foot on the ground, you know?

Well, right.

And sometimes I think we have to just be sensitive to ourselves and kind to ourselves.

And for me, like afternoons recognize, okay, what do I need in the afternoons?

And I feel like sometimes my life is all about having fun, having it be easy, having exciting.

But that's not in the Bible.

It was about loving God, loving others and serving others.

Right.

So I thought, okay, in the afternoons, you know, I could really use some people time.

And I can't do any really hard tasks.

And if I was working for somebody and I was going into a job, I could do that.

But at home, I have to make myself do it.

And so I thought the more things I could have in place where, okay, every Tuesday I do this, every Wednesday I do this, and try and involve people in my afternoon since I'm an extrovert and my morning's all introvert-y, right?

So I just feel like um again it's like what's not working and then see what you can make

Work you.

Give that try maybe it doesn't work so you tweak the system so you just keep tweaking it until you find some of your works so just like you know what you talked about in the

Book yeah you do have to just kind of keep and I I talk about in the book I talk about seasons and I think we are in my kids age where we have been through the baby season and where we've been through the toddler season and now we're kind of in the teenage season so anyway definitely.

If I look at my house I've seen the way structure changes I'm you know I mean just anybody who's had kids like you raise that baby season like it's just filled with plastic everywhere and anytime you go on a trip like it's comical stuff you are cramming into a car for tiny infants um and so we've I've had but I think that that's the interesting part about a home is just how can it serve you and the easiest way to make your home serve you is to go sit in one of its corners and say, what do I need in this corner?

You know, or what's not working for me in this corner?

It's one of the most basic things I think.

So this is a, this is a sort of a hack that I do.

Um, but when I'm looking at a living room or just any room where there is a chair, I need a place to set my drink.

That's it.

Like it's the simplest thing.

I just, and it needs to be a table that is.

Yay high, you know, 18 to 20 inches.

It can't be too tall.

It doesn't need to be taller than the arm of the chair.

It just needs to be right there, you know, just so that my cup of coffee, my iced tea, whatever can go right there.

So, and I think that's part of the analytical side of my brain that asks like, what's working or what's not working.

If there's not a place to sent my drink, there's something not working here.

All of a sudden, I have a shopping list, you know, let's go to the Goodwill until we find a little table or a garden stool or just something.

You know.

Yeah.

And I remember too, I think it was probably around the same part of the book, you were talking about that sort of thing.

I thought, well, one of the things that's not working for me is I'm always searching for either my billfold or my glasses.

And I have a specific place in my house to put both my billfold and my glasses.

So I, what I recognize is every time I walk into the house I immediately before I sit down have put my billful away and my glasses away I can't leave them in the pocket and my keys I usually always put my keys away but and then as I started doing that like that's so easy to do and then I'm never searching for things and even if we we go someplace we go to somebody's house and stay for a few days right away find a place for my billfold and my glasses things that I'm gonna have to get again and

Then I think that's That's like one of those things that you just build off of that because pretty soon that becomes second nature intuition.

You're just going to put your belt pulled away and put your glasses away because you already put your keys away.

Right.

And then you can be like, okay, well, what else do I need to do?

You know, mine would probably be like, put your shoes away.

I don't like having cold feet.

So it also might be like a comfort thing, like put on socks, you know?

Right.

I don't know.

Depending on if you're.

I always put my shoes away because I got a little tray for shoes by the, my shoes go by the front door, my husband's shoes go by the back door.

And then I put my slippers in the tray too.

So right away, as soon as I put off my shoes, I put my slippers on.

So that works.

I mean, yeah, it's these very small things that I think.

Make a difference in our lives.

And I think she could bring little, you know, that's just, that's just joyful, you know?

It does.

It helps create peace and joy when you're not stressed out.

You're not, when you're not having bad afternoons, when you're not running around finding things and when your house works.

And there is a blog post, I'll put these in the show notes, you guys, but Whitney has a blog post that has like a whole bunch of organization things that you can get to organize your cupboards.

Like I even noticed with Lazy Susans that you can get organizations trays that are pie shaped that fit in a,

Or even, oh yeah.

So, but anyways, there's organizing stuff.

Yeah, all kinds of tools.

You guys can find that.

And anyway, there's all kinds of practical things in her book for both decorating, which we didn't talk that much about and organization.

And for me, I found that I applied it to other areas of my life, like work.

I love that.

Yeah, it's really changing my life.

So I could talk all afternoon, but I guess we better try and keep it to a manageable listening link.

So where can people find you, Whitney?

Where can they find your book?

My website is WhitneyEnglish.com.

The book is available wherever fine books are sold.

And I'm on Instagram at WhitneyEnglish.

and then I'm also on the Substack at Whitney English, which is something I'm trying to do a little bit more of.

And I'm really liking that over there.

Oh, good.

Yeah, I haven't even tried that out, but I'll put all those links in our show notes, guys.

You can find those.

Well, thank you so much for writing