Welcome to Complicated Kids, a podcast about why raising kids can feel like an extreme sport.

Sometimes we'll talk about quirky kids, highly sensitive kids or kid kids, kids with disabilities and disorders.

We'll talk about therapies and the different kinds of professionals you might interact with, but we'll also talk about general child development, brain development, parenting tips.

Keeping people sane and how to understand the child you brought home with you and agreed to house, clothe, feed, and raise until their adulthood.

Parenting is an adventure anyway.

If you've got complicated kids you already know you're in for the ride of your life, join me to unpack all of it.

Figure out who needs what and help your family thrive.

I'm your host, toddler whisperer, speech therapist, parent and parent coach, Gabriele Nicolet.

Let's get started.

Hey there.

Welcome back to the Complicated Kids Podcast.

I'm your host, Gabriele Nicolet.

I am a toddler whisperer, a speech therapist, and a parent coach.

And today I'm joined by Matthew Fishleder.

Matthew, welcome.

Thanks for having me.

We are gonna talk and I'm very excited about this, all, about regulation today.

Before we do that, tell the good people a little bit about yourself, where you are and what you do.

Sure.

I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.

I work in Germantown Maryland and the surrounding areas.

I work with individual adults, parents throughout Maryland.

I'm also licensed in California.

I see people there as well.

I do help a lot of parents to talk about these kinds of things with the, the importance of self-regulation and understanding how they can support their kids with difficult moments.

Yeah.

And, and that is people who listen to the podcast will know, like, that's what juices me up.

I'm like, yeah, how do we do that?

So the, the thing you said before we hit record, and I, I usually ask, what do people most need to know that they don't know?

And you said, we can't teach kids to be regulated.

If adults can't get regulated or something like that.

Do you want, do you wanna explain a little bit about how you think about that concept?

Sure.

I mean, I'm, I'm also a parent myself, and so that's something else that comes to mind for me and that I share with folks a lot.

The kids are still developing these emerging skills.

Of self-regulation and the way that that shows up is dysregulation when they don't know how to do it themselves, when when our kids get dysregulated.

It has the impact, the impact on us as caregivers of dysregulating us.

And so we experience that normal chaos that our kids experiencing.

It's.

The, it's the invisible labor of getting attuned to ourselves and realizing I'm dysregulated, I'm emotional right now.

I feel anxious 'cause my kid is pulling on my shirt and saying my name again and again and again.

And realizing that we're dysregulated ourselves is the step toward finding the centeredness.

We need to identify what can I say to this kid?

What can I say to this kid on purpose that acknowledges not just where we are ourselves, but where how we can attune tune in to what's going on for a kiddo.

You're saying all my favorite words.

My favorite words too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The first one was normal.

It's normal to be dysregulated or to become dysregulated when your child is poking and pulling and saying your name.

Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy.

Daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy.

Why is that normal?

And how does that work?

It's something that one psychiatrist named Louis Cono talks about as the idea of a social synapse.

We regulate one another.

Through our interactions and through our perceptions of one another.

We regulate each other's brains.

It's not unlike with when, when a baby's born, they encourage parents and caregivers to hold the baby on their, on their skin, on their chest, to have that skin to skin contact.

We regulate each other's bodies.

It's a similar kind of concept when we think about across this gap between one person and another, between a kid and ourselves that a kid's emotional arousal or psychological arousal will impact us.

Just like we're hoping that we can find a place of calm so we can help our kid to slow themselves down.

It's about identifying the presence of that gap and the impact that one that we have on each other.

And so it's what I love about this concept, and Stuart Schenker talks about it in his book, self Reg, right?

This is like the umbilical cord on wifi, or you know, a similar notion of this gap, and yet you're still connected.

And so.

Even just knowing that that's true.

I think like I actually, as I'm thinking about it right now, it's like helping be like, oh yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Of course we're connected.

Of course, your emotional state, particularly of your own child, is having an effect.

My child's nervous system state is having an effect on my nervous system.

Of course it is.

But we don't, to your point earlier, we don't often think about it that way.

We think this is an emergency.

It has to be fixed.

Yeah.

I mean, I, we can even add to the idea that it's normal.

We can add that it's important.

Because it's the, it's the wavelength at which we can tune into what's going on for our kids.

If, if I'm feeling dysregulated, can be assigned to me, that my kid's feeling dysregulated.

It's, it's an invitation to connect that that, that icky feeling we get when when, when our kid is poking at us.

Okay.

This is such a great reframe.

And I sometimes, more and more these days, I'm thinking about lots of things as a kaleidoscope.

So life is just a kaleidoscope.

And if you want a different perspective, just give it a little, a little nudge to the right or the left.

Okay?

Yeah.

And so this is one of them.

What if that icky feeling is just like a very strong signal to connect?

What?

That's good.

I'll say most of us, and hopefully this is changing now that we know more about the brain and how it works and emotions and all that, but most of us lean out from an icky feeling, not into an icky feeling.

Mm-hmm.

When you work with people, I imagine that part of what you're doing is building this capacity.

Are there are, are there any tricks?

Are there any tips?

Are there, like how do we do that?

That's a very good question.

How do we lean in?

We, we can kind of notice and name it.

Dan Segal who you and I talked about a little bit earlier talks about this idea of, name it to tame it when we are experiencing something.

It's kind of floating around in different parts of our brains and when we, when we name it, when we try to apply some kind of language to that oftentimes when we're talking about dysregulation that like, sort of beehive kind of stinging us all around kind of feeling when we, when we name it it actually.

Consolidates some of the activity in the brain around those linguistic centers that we can start to become aware of the different pieces of the feeling, the different pieces of our own dysregulation such that we can more easily make choices based on that awareness, that understanding we can accept.

I'm feeling nervous that my kid is gonna escalate if I don't turn on the TV right now, even though we're about to sit time, sit down for dinner.

When we can recognize that and identify it and name it, we tame it and we can move from that centeredness toward a choice.

And caveat I'm talking about ideal circumstances, I'm talking about when, when the kid is not starting to grab at your at your, at your jewelry instead of your shirt.

When the kid is not starting to kick and scream on the floor and that we, we move toward.

That goal of tuning in to ourselves, tuning into our kids.

It's a good point.

There's a therapist in Texas named Katie Molinsky, whose work I quite like.

She has something called the arc of the tantrum, which I would rename as the arc of the meltdown.

That's fine.

But there is this like sign curve, right?

The crest of which at the, when kids are at the peak of a meltdown.

Ain't nobody talking, please.

We're not trying to negotiate out of peak meltdown.

What you are talking about is kind of a ramp up situation and maybe even right before a ramp up situation where you start to get those prickles of awareness that like, oh, something might be happening here.

So, but let's maybe talk about when kid is in peak meltdown, what.

What, well, what, what do we do?

So Bruce Perry is another psychologist who, who talks about really extensively about the, the what's happening in the brain.

This is what I read.

I know you're talking about it too, but this, this is what I, what I read when I'm not working.

I'm like, I wanna find something really interesting about the brain.

Yeah.

He talks about this three step process of regulating.

Relating and then reasoning.

So even I would add to that, before we regulate our kids, we regulate ourselves.

We can't reason with a kid that's outta 10.

Outta 10 in part because the areas of their brain that do the reasoning.

Don't have the blood flow in them.

The blood is going to their arms and their legs so they can kick and scream.

And and it's tightening their throat so they can be as loud as they need to be to get what they need to survive.

They need that TV to be on.

They need ice cream for dinner.

Can we pause here for just a second because I, I do think, parents and, and teachers and clinicians should really understand this.

It to the child in the moment, it is real.

We can say all day long, objectively, we don't need ice cream for dinner.

But that's, we're not having an objective experience.

None of us is first.

It won't matter to the kid.

It's the survival it feels.

Like a survival thing.

Yeah.

In that moment that ice cream for dinner is the nail on which we are hanging.

They are hanging their very being and.

Once I, I, I have this conversation all the time.

Once parents understand that or start to maybe just open the door a little bit to the possibility that that could be true, then we have like access to all of this other stuff.

Okay.

I totally interrupted your point.

You were talking about Bruce Perry.

Three things.

Keep going.

No, that's okay.

Yeah, my, my point was exactly that, that it's, it's a real lived experience.

If someone were to say, we're taking your house away in an hour, in, in 10 minutes.

We might not go into into really, we can't go directly into reasoning like, well, what happened?

What's going on?

How can we prevent it?

But we need to first get regulated somehow.

It's this basic survival need, and that's the experience of these kiddos is, and the, these survival mechanisms in the brain start to fire.

And when I was talking earlier, I mentioned in, in passing that we don't have the blood flow to the reasoning parts of the brain.

That's the, that's that survival response that you're talking about.

That's firing in these cato's brains.

So we have to first regulate ourselves to get connected to them and help them to regulate from there, I.

It's, it's very tempting to go from, okay, you're regulated, my kiddo, you're regulated.

Let's go to reasoning.

But the, the intermediary is actually to relate.

The, the relating is to validate their experience is to validate.

You really, really wanted ice cream for dinner.

I really hear that.

And it's so frustrating.

It's so frustrating that you could hit me.

Pause.

You are saying my favorite word again, one of my favorite words, which is validation, and I just want everybody to like hit the 15 second back button on your podcast listener because.

It's so easy, the way that you just said it is exactly how you would say it to a child .

It doesn't cost anything.

Doesn't cost a thing.

It's, it's, and it's not a delay and it's not an excuse and it's not permission for any bad behavior.

What it is, is an acknowledgement that you are having an experience and I understand.

You're having an experience.

Not that I agree.

Not that I'm having the same experience.

This is your experience.

This is your experience, and because you're a child, this is my like one of my soapbox, you can tell I'm getting all agitated because you are a child and you don't know how to explain your experiences.

You are just having them all the time, which think about how much of a trip that is I the adult.

I'm going to help you explain your experience to yourself.

Like, anyway, keep talking, please.

Well, that's fine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's so, it's so right on.

That it's, it, it can feel so much like we're like we're feeding.

The, like, we're feeding the beast.

Like we're telling a kid by saying, I know it's sad that you can't have ice cream for dinner.

That we're, that we're hinting at, we're gonna give them ice cream for dinner.

That they have the power over us to make that happen.

And what we're, what we're really trying to show them is that that we, we can acknowledge as their parent can acknowledge just how desperate they're feeling for this thing to happen.

Just, just the intensity of the, of the survival strategy.

Which to them it feels like ice cream for dinner is kind of like the standard the standard metaphor that I use 'cause it's just so out there for us as parents, but it's so completely normal and like reasonable for a 4-year-old to like and when, when we take that moment to once we've regulated them, slowed them down a little bit, and we can and we can relate with a kid.

Then not only are we providing that to use one of your favorite words to valid that validation that we can see what their reality is, but we're actually further regulating them.

Yeah.

The, the validation is like, okay, so I had for the kid it's like, so I had a kind of a, like, it's okay that I had such a big feeling.

It's okay that I had that rollercoaster right now.

Mom sees it, dad sees it.

Okay, so what do I, and then they can look to us, what do I do now?

And that's when we can talk to them about that.

It's dinner time that dinner's ready.

It's on the plate.

It's not time to watch tv.

We don't have ice cream on the plate for dinner.

And then as a parent, we can, we can look at what is the next opportunity to say, to have some ice cream.

That's another piece that I like to go to.

Is that like to say no without it being a complete no.

I just went through with this, a, a, a parent yesterday about like a script to use that didn't involve a no.

And this was an autistic child who as soon as he hears not, or no, like those two words or don't it, it, he, he is in full meltdown.

And so it was a, a yes.

And which sounds like an improv game that you don't really wanna play, but Yeah.

But it was like, yes.

And I'm so excited to have ice cream with you after dinner.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Like it's as simple as that at some level, right?

Yeah.

Right, right.

I hear that you're so, I once, once a kid gets regulated somewhat.

Yeah.

I hear it's so, it makes you so mad that we're not having ice cream for dinner, so angry and that you really want ice cream for dinner.

And what about tomorrow after such and such thing?

Let's go get ice cream together.

Right, the, the, and at that point, the question of ice cream for dinner, what we're sort of going for there is that, like the ice cream for dinner is no longer the conversation, but it's like the next ice cream is the conversation.

We're looking at the future together.

And that's a big piece of, of even getting through a meltdown is not just acknowledging the feeling and and setting the limit, but also finding some alternatives.

That that it's, it's ice cream for dinner is not happening today.

Let's find another time or it's not okay for you to hit me.

You can we can use the, the pillow that we got for our calm down corner.

This is interesting because.

I've the rest of these feelings.

Yeah.

I think sometimes we get stuck in the loop of, of in the loop of validation or in the loop of right re re reflecting back what kiddo is feeling and we get kind of stuck.

We, we get stuck in the loop rather than moving it forward.

And so I wonder if you have, you start, you are starting to talk about it here, but sort of this, I appreciate what you're saying about like.

Okay.

Yes, we have validated the heck out of this now and, and now we're moving.

Now we're moving.

We're moving.

'Cause a, a kid, especially in a dysregulated state, when a kid is in a meltdown or coming, coming through a meltdown even, even at a fairly regulated state, a kid is a kid's capacity to develop.

Problem solving strategies and follow through on them is still emerging.

The brain is still organizing itself, and so when we say, don't do this or We're not gonna do this, we have to provide some sort of alternative to them.

It really helps when we say, to provide some kind of alternative.

To I, you know, I'm not for hitting.

There's a pillow on the couch.

If you really need to hit something, you can hit the pillow.

I know that's even, that can be controversial, but let's find something I'm not for hitting.

You can use a word from this list.

You can choose one of these pictures to tell me about how you feel.

You can if you need to have some time.

If, if it's, if what you're needing is some time by yourself in the other room, that's totally fine.

Right.

I think we have to give them a couple of options for, for some alternatives.

Yeah.

Themselves.

I just thinking maybe two, maybe three.

Maybe two.

Maybe two.

Yeah.

Because also too much choice.

Too many.

And it's overwhelming.

And it's overwhelming.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Two, maybe three.

Yeah.

You know, your kid.

If you think that three is gonna be an experiment with it, start with two.

If they're like, that's not enough choices, think about offering a third one, cap it at three.

Who else?

The it's just occurring to me now when you, so sometimes parents feel like we gotta offer choices, which we definitely should.

And so like, maybe what I would do in that scenario also is say, what about the, you know, just kind of offer one thing, even if you get a no.

You've got information.

So what's interesting to me, just again right now is like, how about some deep breaths?

No, thank you for telling me that that is not what you need.

That is not what you're needing right now.

That's not what you need.

Okay?

And by the way, let's not have a conversation about tone at that moment.

You talk about that a little bit.

That goes back to reasoning with a kid when they're still in an elevated state.

It's.

Not gonna happen.

And in, in, for a lot of parents, when, when we hear that tone, it feels threatening to us because it's, it's intended to be threatening.

It's a, it's this little animal that's like, I'm big and you do what I say.

And it can feel threatening to us.

And when we can notice that.

Somehow self-regulate through it.

Take our breath and and recognize for our kid that deep breath is not what you're needing right now.

Let's come up with some other ideas.

Yeah, right.

It's true that when it feels like it's that we are being attacked makes it even harder to.

Stay calm, to stay in the moment to offer the next choice and to take that, that response as data instead of an attack.

And I imagine that's something that you work with people on a lot.

We can even say to a kid, that was a big voice that surprised me.

So deep breath is not what you're needing.

I just took a deep breath that helped me.

It's not what you're needing.

Let's think of something else.

Yeah.

Right.

That we're there with them to find some, to help them through this question of, well, if not that, then what?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Matthew, this is a lot of work.

Sure is.

Do you wanna normalize that a little bit?

It's a lot of work, it's a lot of emotional labor for us as parents, psychological labor to recognize, you know, you're feeling, you're feeling threatened because, and this is, Dan Siegel talks about this too, that you're feeling threatened because people would raise their voice in, in the family that you grew up in.

And so it.

We, it can, our kids' behavior towards us as parents can somehow transport us back to being children ourselves.

And it's kind of trip trippy and paradoxical that way.

But it's a lot of work.

It's a lot of work and it's exhausting.

And so having people that we can, like having someplace like listening to this podcast, having someone that we can go to to talk about just how much work it is, just how tiring it is about the things that we don't get to say to our kids that that we need somewhere to say, whether it's to another parent, whether it's to a therapist, a friend, a family member.

Yeah.

To to, to share, to, to share the burden, to be able to talk about and, and make a reality.

Just how much work this really is because it, it takes, it takes work and it takes a village.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You are one of those people.

Would you tell people how to find you and, Yeah.

How they, how do they find you?

Sure.

Yeah.

So my website is growingpresent.com.

I I'm also on Psychology Today.

I'm on, I use a couple of platforms to to do the virtual telehealth work.

Right now I'm seeing people primarily through telehealth virtually.

But people can learn more about my practice about what I do and my availability at growingpresent.com.

I love it.

We will link to that in the show notes.

Matthew, Matthew, Fishleder, thank you so much for coming.

This was really fun.

Thank you so much for having me, Gabriele.

This was great.

This was a lot of fun.

If you have a complicated kid in your life, you do not have to go it alone.

As a parent coach and child development consultant, I work with families individually and in groups to help them calm the chaos, spot the wins and celebrate, rather than fight the child they have.

If that sounds good, there's a link to schedule a free 15 minute conversation with me in the show notes.

We can talk about what's going on and see whether we're a fit to work together.

Talk soon.

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