So in the mid 90s, I was now a volunteer security officer and I had the opportunity to either walk him, drive him, spend time with him, minutes, hours, perhaps in a week.

And those interactions were fascinating.

Some of those events, by the way, in some of those years were very tense.

And I was young.

I didn't understand fully what was happening at the time, but there was there were definitely stressful moments and he didn't hide his stress from me.

And then there were times when we might sit in AVIP area that was cordoned off, perhaps at the airport.

I'm waiting for him to be the last to board a plane or the 1st to go through somewhere and I had to make sure I always had good questions lined up.

She said to me, look in future publications, can you take a look at them as well, just to cast an eye over them?

You're not there to check the grammar, although frequently I did.

And from then on all the way through, not only through the rest of the Chief Rabiner and even when he left the Chief Rabiner.

So I think in 2013, I carry on doing that till he passed away tragically so early.

But I think, I mean, I think, I think you'd want us to be very proud of our Yiddish guys and not shy away from it at all.

Salma Aikham and welcome to start Take Stark Tank is a podcast by the challenges and opportunities of being a mentor in the workforce.

This is our 99th episode.

Please keep a look out for our 100th episode, a very special conversation which will be coming to you next week.

This week is the yard set of Rabbi Jonathan Sacks and Honolulu Verja.

Last year we had a very special series in his memory and remembering his legacy with regards to being a mentor in the workforce.

And this year we have one mega episode with two fascinating conversations coming your way.

You're going to hear from Mr.

David Fry who worked with her by Sacks doing editing on his books as well as other things as well.

But for now, we're joined by Joe Himes.

Joe has been a leader in Jewish leadership in the world of tech and media as well.

Joe, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the show.

Thank you Arko for having me.

So first I need to express our car.

Satov The first time I had anything close to a job is when I was an intern at a place called Honest Reporting.

And Joe believed in me and fed me wonderful lunches and took me on trips and it was a lot of fun.

I even once almost stole your iPad.

I don't remember that.

But I thank you, Joe for giving me a start in the professional world.

And I really appreciate that.

But the reason why we're talking to you today is because well before you were leader in these fields of media and nonprofit work and stuff like that, you had a very close relationship with Ray Sacks.

So let me tell us about the origins of that.

Yeah, for sure.

I did have a close relationship and it's one that I, I worked hard to try and to get close to him.

As a teenager, I was a student at JFS Jews Free School in London.

As in, in senior year, I had the opportunity to go and meet the Chief Rabbi.

And Rob Sacks was a very impressive person from my very first experience meeting him.

And yeah, or inspiring in the sense of stepping into his home with a, with a few of my few fellow students and having prepped some questions, none of which I remember.

But this was certainly an opportunity presented to us as to meet the leader of the leader of the Jewish community at home and abroad.

And I just remember being nervous.

I don't remember what I asked.

I just remember the, the, the, the sense of that sense, like a regal sense of stepping into someone's home was very princely in the way he addressed us and welcomed us, but very warm and inviting once that conversation got flying.

And after that one connection, as I continue to in my own Jewish studies, wanting to spend a year right in yeshiva, not being sure where to do that and looking for some pocket money.

I guess in that last summer or the summer before the last year of high school, I started thinking to myself about going into Jewish studies, perhaps academically, professionally, I wasn't sure.

But I wanted to spend more time with his great personality, this great man, this great leader that I bumped into, and books were being published and his name was all over the Jewish news.

I was just impressed and enchanted in a way that I wanted to try and connect further.

And Little Joe Himes wasn't really going to have a shot at that unless I could find an excuse to be rounding about him in the course of his ongoing weekly and monthly events, which always attending, be it dinners, be it shivers, be it giving lectures, be it book signings.

And an opportunity arose to join a volunteer network of, of security providers, those that would escort him to events, who would drive him, who would train to drive him efficiently and securely in tandem with the with the London police.

And I was accepted into that program.

And by my late teens, we're speaking now, oh, what was it, mid 90s.

So in the mid 90s, I was now a volunteer security officer and I had the opportunity to either walk him, drive him, spend time with him, minutes, hours, perhaps in a week.

And those interactions were fascinating.

I could begin with any one of many, but if there's any in particular you want me to zoom in on, what kind of what kind of experience can I can I flesh out for you?

So maybe we'll start with this.

It's interesting you're going back to the to the mid 90s.

He was still very much a rising star.

He had not yet gain the world renowned that he has today.

And but you also mentioned that even back then, your first meeting with him was something so royal about him.

So maybe you could talk about how he saw himself and how he viewed himself as someone who, on the one hand, seems to be so gracious and so humble, but also so majestic.

Yeah, so there's definitely something in the way he carried himself, in the way he, he was always so thoughtful and pensive.

He almost spoke with his facial expressions, as in once a question was put to him that thinking, those eyebrows, that the beard, the the sense of being fully present in your question and the answer that flowed being so well developed and sincere.

There was there was an aura of presence that was which was belied by the very humble and honest grandfatherly conversation that would flow always with a smile, always serious, always sincere.

And I think that in I think that the community, the community gives in a positive way, a veneer of cover to its leader.

And that leader can either can either magnify it to their own, to their own sense of self, or they can deflect it and be self deprecating.

And somewhere in between was a very sincere, appropriate walking with that cover that was afforded him and he earned it and then some.

But nonetheless, approaching a front door, it would be rough sacks who would hold the door open for the person who he was with.

And there could be some very confusing moments, at least for the person on the receiving end of that gesture to not allow covered the rough to to walk through that door first.

So there was a, there's a very real person, I think wrapped in a, in a community veneer of cover that we all gave him and it was Julianne and, and where else do we get to experience such a sense of sense of cover?

I'm not sure that we have any other examples, perhaps laughter with ministers, MPs, members of parliament and and and business leaders, but that's much more out of a sense of to my mind that would always be a sense of intimidation or fear of saying the wrong thing.

I don't think I was ever fearful of saying the wrong thing or asking the wrong question with rough sacks.

It was more just being aware that I'm about to take a few seconds of someone signed with this question it better counter because he earned it being time well spent.

I don't know if I've answered the question, but that was definitely my take away.

And I love the fact that you sort of balance the fact that his, this aura around him along with the fact he was a very real person.

And I'm wondering like I've always imagined, like to be someone in his position, to be in the spotlight on show so often in such an intense way with such scrutiny, Not bad scrutiny, but just always being looked at.

And then he finishes this event, he gets into the car, he's with you.

Does he let his guard down?

Is he a different person?

He's the same person?

Is he still that have to put on a show for Joe Himes?

There's no show, I'll say it like this, that the journey to the event was always more awkward for me.

And not not nothing that he did that made it awkward.

Just it was my own take on the situation where the protocol would always be, I guess, another regal veneer.

So you don't speak until spoken to.

Perhaps we should practice them more with our kids.

I mean, that was certainly wasn't something that he imposed.

That was just the understanding.

When you're driving someone of importance, you drive and you keep your mouth shut and if someone asks you a question, you engage.

And I was always very aware of those moments where, and it could be just minutes, it could be half an hour on a longer journey.

I know that he's using that time to write his drasha, to collect his thoughts, to remind himself of the event.

Some of those events, by the way, in some of those years were very tense.

There was a lot of, I think around the time of publishing, Dignity of Difference.

There was a lot of blowback from, from many, from many corners about that book.

And I was young.

I didn't understand fully what was happening at the time, but there was there were definitely stressful moments and he didn't hide perhaps his his stress from me in the sense that he just wanted quiet time.

He wanted to think he might have to take a phone call.

But there are other times that when he spoke he would be very sincere and very honest.

And there was certainly on the approach to an event.

I was aware that his mind was in where we were heading and on the way home there would be a relaxed reflection.

I don't recall ever discussing post event with him.

It really again was under my business.

My job was to get him home safely, but nonetheless, it was always a very good, warm, good night.

And he always tried to, I don't want to say always.

I was aware that he was uncomfortable taking my time 10/30, 11:00 at night, that I should walk him all the way to his front door.

As in Joe, go home already like your wife's waiting.

Well, my wife and my family were waiting.

It was the year after, I think I was working with him that I was newly married.

But he was always very aware that my time was precious as well.

So there would be a bit of a jostle.

No, no, I'm going to walk you to the front door.

That's my job.

So he was very true.

He was very real, beginning to end.

There were some tough years, but even at those, even in those times when I think there was stress around around the book and there were one or two other communal events he had, I want to say magic arms.

He had the widest embrace of the community left to right where he just about or he most certainly did manage what others couldn't or hadn't in keeping the left and right.

And I'm using those terms with small L&R really keeping the broad spectrum, the Jewish community under the umbrella of having covered for him, even if at the edges they were in disagreement.

It's not a small thing to say that.

And I'm not sure that I'm not sure that in 2025 things would or could be the same.

But in those years, he did a phenomenal job of making sure that there was a unified community and congregation under his auspices.

And everyone loved him from all angles for being that broad.

But being true to himself.

He was a true broad centrist.

And I'm saying that in as far as he was uncompromising as a strong, as a, as a strong religious leader without compromise and nonetheless fully embrace with full heart and love and adoration those subjects of his community, of his Kahila, which existed to the left of himself or others that were making life maybe half him at the time.

And I'm just trying to imagine you in that front seat of that car and the the dual pressures.

On the one hand, you have this generational leader that you're sitting just a few feet away from and you want to give them the respect and the space, but also take advantage of any moments of opportunity on the one hand.

On the other hand, you're also in charge of getting him from point A to point B safely, securely on the roads with other drivers.

And I guess maybe London back then wasn't as hostile as it is now.

We're not going to that conversation, but you still have a public figure who could have.

We had people in the in the vicinity.

So this was like for you having that double pressure from both sides.

Yeah, it was, it was stressful, not least because sometimes the car wasn't always familiar to me.

Maybe whoever drove it last to put the seat higher or lower, like small things.

And you want, you want the experience to be comfortable and smooth.

And there's always the what ifs and you're never working alone.

There's there are always people in the chain of commands and concern and care for him from beginning to end.

And on arrival, there would always be a very there'll be the pomp and ceremony of receiving the Chief Rabbi.

And I was just a little Joe at his side as but I felt safe once I got there because I knew there was a there was an event waiting to receive him.

It was pressurized.

I mean, it's, it goes with the training that if you have to use anything that you learned, then something went wrong, as in the the true measure of of having trained well is that you anticipated and nothing went wrong.

And I was very fortunate, thank God, in those years to be free of any trouble.

Any trouble was anticipated and known bypass.

If anything, I was more worried about the car breaking down.

I wouldn't want to be stuck at the side of the on the way to Hitler airport, the chief Rabbi, you know, by the crash barriers with the thumb out waiting for service.

So I think I was just more like I was plotting about what would I do if like that kind of thing went wrong.

And then there were times when we might sit in in a VIP area that was cordoned off perhaps at the airport.

I won't go into too many details, but there were times where we were face to face and waiting perhaps for him to be the last to board a plane or the 1st to go through somewhere.

And I had to make sure I always had good questions lined up because you can't sit opposite someone and not speak.

And he was very thoughtful in, in, in allowing me to ask questions.

And he, despite having lots on his minds, he gave me some guidance that even though I can't remember the words, I was inspired to go ahead and, for example, to get into community service.

Perhaps he famously was not headed for the rabbinate.

I mean, he speaks of his time meeting the rabbi and in New York and being told against his own internal judgement that you're not going to do this.

You're going to go ahead and be a community rabbi back in Cambridge.

He almost allowed me to not have to worry about what track my high school and then university in Korea would be, but to rather go with what I sensed would allow me to give most to the community and perhaps my ending up in Israel.

And some of my nonprofit years of service came from that as well.

So I want to get into some of the big effects that he had on your life and your decisions.

But before that, any other any other small anecdotal stories that you want to share with our listeners from those behind the scenes moments?

I would say that in So when I would escort him to an event, I would be a very different person than one perhaps a few years later.

I was a student at London School of Jewish Studies my first year of undergrad and I would then be effectively a student in in a program that he was the head of.

And and that dynamic was it was strange.

There was a dichotomy there.

Going through a door as someone's security detail would always be.

I would be the one to go through a door 1st.

And it felt very uncomfortable to not say after you have because who who walks through a door before or you're rough, let alone sacks.

But he understood that that was my job.

I walked through the door.

I make sure there's no trouble the other side and he would follow me through.

But yet I had to remind myself when it came to any other circumstance of deference as a student going to lunch to choose College London School of Jewish Studies after you.

I had to remind myself that after you was now my default, but he was such a Mensch he would always go for the after you as his default and that didn't matter where I went.

So in effect he was allowing me to just do my job when I was on detail with him.

At least that's what I thought.

But no, he would always want to have allowed someone else to step through the door before him and as as regal as a persona as he would carry into the room, he would still hold the door open for you.

And that was that really endured it was.

He was very down to earth the way he would speak to anyone from airline staff to catering the people, anyone who would bump into on the way.

There was a sincere how are you?

Thank you so much and goodnight no less than he didn't want me to have to walk him down the driveway to his front door.

He'd rather save me those few seconds.

So he's very much a true a truly humble.

He was very real.

He was very real in in the sense that when you read his, when you through all of his books, you read him speaking as an, and I'm saying it with the greatest cupboard as a as a, as a 20 something thoughtful young man having an outlook on life, never imagining himself to have become a 304050 superstar in the communal sense.

He was always that young man on the inside who wanted to just do good and keep building.

I don't know if he was ever really comfortable having grown and emerged through his own efforts into the huge persona that he was bumped into him in New York.

I think it was New York, perhaps Washington, one of the Jewish assemblies, and I forget which year, but he was just riding an escalator, reading a book, and I saw heads turning in the other direction.

I mean, he's a, he's a, he's a face and a character that you can't miss.

Like you think he could never be in disguise.

And he was just, he was, I'm imagining from his own thoughts.

I'm just another attendee at this event of, of Jews coming to watch and learn and live and breathe everything that we care about.

And there was never a grandeur about it.

He seemed very comfortable in America, I have to say.

There was a sense of perhaps he felt there was a measure of anonymity that he didn't enjoy in the much smaller closed community of London.

And he just always a smile on his face, just very down to earth.

You spoke of him as a real person and this is maybe a technical detail.

I'm just fascinated by it.

Like you would walk through a a door.

Would you have to like nod or have a certain protocol with him to allow him to come in?

And maybe broadly speaking, did everybody Sacks have to participate in any sort of like security training for various scenarios that might come up with him in in distress or in danger?

I won't say too much about it, but he understood full well that what the security detail would do advise there wasn't going to be a conversation and he had enormous trust.

We were not.

We were never a pain or an annoyance.

He understood full well why we were there and we understood full well why, why measuring and maintaining as much privacy and distance as we as we could was important.

I remember being very mindful of perhaps his dinner time.

And there was there were there were things going on in the kitchen and I could smell that dinner was almost ready.

And I was conscious of not taking up more time than I needed to get in or to get out as I have my home time and back.

And I watched real family life in these small vignettes, you know, from inside his home and Elaine always just so warm and welcome.

Hi, Joe, how are you?

And it was sincere.

I wasn't just a doorman or a driver.

In those few moments, I felt like a guest.

I wasn't a guest.

I was there working, but I was a guest and they meant it.

And they were a very warm and real family in that sense.

So the protocols themselves were known and trusted and but I never felt for a moment that he resented or felt uncomfortable with what was going on around him.

He wore it very well, very well.

It's really special just to hear another angle, a more intimate angle.

And I know that not everything is for a public, public discussion.

We can also speak after the recording and and make our listeners tell us.

Yeah.

Thank you.

But so let's just transition for the last part of this conversation to tell us a little bit about how you know you've had a career with a few different stages and transitions.

So let me tell you a little bit about everybody Sax's influence that you can look back on in retrospect, about how your conversations or even just his ideas LED you to make your big life decisions in your career.

Yeah, for sure.

And the two big decisions that were coming into, which had taken shape at the time I was working with him or learning alongside him, were heading to yeshiva, potential marriage and then potential career.

As in, if I was to continue my Jewish studies, which I'd become more serious about in the years prior as a late teenager, that would mean a year in yeshiva.

And I headed off to Hamita.

And then it was a question of right, well, now do I head to some professional career in business medicine, whatever it might have been, or do I just focus on continuing Jewish studies?

And at the time a second year in yeshiva wasn't an option.

I was also very much into the creative arts.

Photography was I went on to study later on, but I wanted to to come back and and do something more serious in, in the in the in the sense of limb wood.

And I was at Jews college only for a year before I switched out to photography.

But his guidance and his conversations and his writings, I realized.

He was someone who was set on a very formal professional path, who understood that the world was a bigger place and the need was greater than the than the look or the expectation.

And even though I had no firm expectations coming upon me from my family, I'd done very well at school.

I was the head boy at JFS.

It was a given that I would head to a top university and choose a top flight professional career.

But I wasn't done learning and I wasn't done deciding.

And I'd already met my now wife of 28 years, almost Sharon at high school.

She'd switched from has been into JFS.

She also spent a year in Israel tribe in a kiva, and I was, and I don't remember exactly how, I asked him about when's the right time and who's the right person.

I wasn't asking him, I wasn't asking dating advice.

But it was very clear there was tension between all of these events and interests that were happening sooner than perhaps the ordinary Anglo British, that the Anglo world would expect succeeding young man to go ahead and continue his career.

The expectation would be another few years at least a formal study and who knows what.

Anyway, he allowed me in the same way that he'd listened to a wider voice or he'd listened or he was open to a broader call from the community.

He allowed me to feel comfortable not knowing where I might go professionally and yet give some time to Jewish studies and that in time moved on to Aaliyah, getting married younger than we may have, honest reporting, teaching.

I was involved with the sun time.

I really enjoyed teaching and that helped pay the bills in the early years of marriage.

And he just signaled to me that even from the very top in the professional sense, as I saw him and recognized in him that, you know, his Cambridge career, his accolades, everything about him suggested a professional top flight direction, as we would describe it from the outside.

And along had come the Rebbe and said, not so fast.

Like look around you don't think what it is you're supposed to become.

Ask what it is that you can become.

And I'd value.

And that has gave me a sense of permission, reassurance, comfort, knowing that whatever my presents itself doesn't have to be measured by what should be, rather what could be and what is needed in the now.

And that led on so everything from advertising to honest reporting to media, to Israel.

And none of those things were traditional or to be expected.

But the gummy shook the flexibility to read the room of the situation, which was very much his.

That was his magic measure if anything.

He could read a room and he knew what needed to be said, what needed to be heard and what needed to not be said.

And I think that I'm just saying this out loud with you now.

Reimagining or remembering that it was his ability to look a room in the eye and it know that he understood them wherever they were, that they felt heard, they felt that he was a real person for them in that moment and anything could become of it.

It didn't matter the subject and it didn't matter the consequence of that meeting.

So I think he gave me that sense of read each day as it comes.

Make plans, but don't be so wedded to them and just be down to earth, however high you may end up flying, which he certainly did and he sorely missed.

I was actually very, I was shocked actually to hear of his hear of his past.

And when he was nifter, I was not really in touch with the community on news.

And it was a long shadow, a long shadow that you know, that morphs into a warm, a warm, a warm set of memories that I'm sharing with you now.

I've not really explored them in a long time.

So thank you for giving me this chance to share them with you.

Thank you for coming on and thank you for sharing them and it is really, really quite touching.

Any other war memories that you want to share with our listeners before we let?

You go nothing, nothing in particular stands out.

But I I can't get over just the majestic look of his face, the way that he could speak to you without speaking.

When I say to, I don't remember.

I've said a few times I don't remember the questions and often I don't remember the answers.

But his face would give you a response that often was, was all you needed.

The words wouldn't have mattered.

And I think that glowing warmth, that radiance that he gave off and his smile, and it was a serious smile.

It was a, it was a piercing smile.

It was like the IT was a, it was a sharp love.

I don't even, I, you know, there aren't really words to describe it.

But there was a, there was an engagement and intensity of his just giving you his attention that mattered more than the answer you'd hoped for.

And I just think that's going to be my, my lifelong memory of, of rough sacks I love.

Jo Hines, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for sharing these really, really precious memories.

And now we're going to transition to our conversation with Mr.

David Frye.

We're joined by Mr.

David Frye, who has a background in law as well as Jewish communal work and also worked very closely with Rabbi Sacks.

So it's an honor to have you here, David, and thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you.

So before we get into your relationship with Henry Sachs and your collaborations, your work with him, maybe let's start with a little bit of personal and professional background about yourself.

Right.

So I was born in London.

I'm a first generation written in other words, both parents were born abroad.

Some was Holocaust survivors.

My mother arrived in this country about two weeks before the Second World War with our parents.

My father came to England in 1947, having gone through every day of the war.

He arrived in England in early 47.

I was brought up in a Jewish district still I'm still there in Hendon, it's called in northwest London.

I studied at I studied law at University College London, got a law degree there.

I was acting as a lawyer, a listener for those who are English Americans, just known as an attorney or a lawyer, which lies in property litigation for about 20 years in the center of London in the West End.

And then I had a massive career change and I took on a job at the london-based in which is the oldest actually, I said probably second orders basin in England, certainly the primary one that there.

This Fardim actually arrived in England when Jews were allowed back in England having been expelled at the 12-9 in 1290.

This Fardim got here first, but the Ashkenazim didn't take that much longer to come here and communities might much lower than the Spartic, the Spanish and Portuguese community.

And I became the administrator of that based in, I still am there, but I've got an additional job which I took on a number of years after being in position, which was to be the legal director of the United Synagogue, which is a very large charities, the largest synagogue charity in England.

It's has about 57 Shoals, mainly in the London area but some in in regions as well.

The Chief Rabbi sits on top of all this actually isn't technically normally they had a London basin as well.

Although on a functional basis we have our rush based in Dangeli.

So my function is to administer that based in but I'm on involved in the side of getting of gay rusts of Jewish status issues of Eruvin or all things like that and dinaitura.

So all the all the miscellaneous bits and pieces which are better than das and potty din are these communal potty din are much more comprehensive than the average based in, for example, in Israel or in America, which may specialize only in divorce, such as net Israel or only dinitura with many potty din.

Both America and Israel just do dinitura only.

We do virtually everything for the community, run the whole gamut of a ravinic boss, anything you can think of to do with Jewish religious life, and we service a very large community.

Well, so before we get into your relationship with everybody, Sax, I always try to plug Karimbiavina.

You went to Karimbiavina way before it was cool, way before my father was there.

So we tell us a little bit about your experiences there and how you decided, but way back before the year in Israel was like a popular and accepted thing to go to Shiva in Israel and to go to Karimbiavina and how that experience shaped your life long term.

And so I, I arrived in 1972 and I stayed for two years.

But in the middle of all that was this catastrophic war, the 1973 war.

Now we look back on the recent war and the terror tragedy.

The contrast is so great.

There were more casualties in three weeks in that war in 1973 than there were in the whole war that we've just been through.

I mean actual fatalities and injured, injured and Cambiovner itself was devastating with about at least seven or eight people killed.

I mean, I I knew all the people killed.

That was a seven rate because they wanted to illuminate whom I didn't know.

There was still bog grim of Cambiovner, but of my colleagues.

I mean, I, I knew 7 people that still, my name is, are still in my young Cuba.

Massa tilted this day and, and the effect on Cambiovner was massive, not only because of the fatalities, but also because the Shiva was almost in, in an empty mode for almost the whole of the winter's months.

So you talk about the end of from October 73 all the way through to Pesa, the only people in Yeshiva because all the boys were being called up mainly in occupation of the other side of the Suez Canal, the Egyptian side of the Suez Canal, which which they captured in the war.

And they remained there in tanks waiting for disengagement talks which took place that Henry Kissinger was involved with to and from diplomacy.

And he was only a close to Pesa in 1974.

So the whole that winter's man that the issue was during the whole time the issue was virtually MD apart from obviously the first few boys who hadn't yet started there.

Hezda, the Hodzlares boys who weren't in the army and some of the older boys were what they called kaflamadim.

They were not able to do combat and so they weren't called up.

So I was there.

The issue was totally empty, but the soul of it was missing because so many people were in Sinai.

And in fact many of them run in there, would go on a weekly basis to Sinai to give them Shurim because they're long zoo and they were in occupied territory.

They had occupied it and until the disengagement was enacted, they had nothing to do with themselves other than to learn.

And they did learn.

And the the the boys were learning because he Shiva there and the rummy would go down from time to time to give them Shuria.

It's a long drive from Kerb Miami.

This was Kalaba.

I'm sure those were very special experiences for everyone involved and powerful to hear the echoes of the current reality.

I started the first year of the war in Karen Biovana and here how it's history somewhat is circular and cyclical in that way is very interesting.

So let's get into Rabbi Sax.

Maybe tell us about the first time you ever met Rabbi Sax.

What was your first impressions of him?

And now we can get into how you guys work together.

So my first contact with him was that wasn't actually within the context of my job at all.

It was some years before I started my job and I'm trying to remember the year.

I don't remember which year it was.

It was either in the late 80s or early 90s when he wearing his London School of Jewish Study or Jewish college hat, because he was before he became Chief Rabbi, he was out of Jewish college.

He ran a series of Modern Orthodoxy lectures on a Sunday morning.

At the time I was working in the centre of London in law.

I haven't absolutely no idea why I was invited to participate in in this particular series, but it was very, very interesting.

It was a monthly series.

Every month he would bring in, almost always from abroad.

It helped up the lectures himself.

Some scholars, chiefly from the United States as advised from Israel, to speak on topics to do with Modern Orthodoxy.

And that's really the first time I came across him.

But it wasn't really a personal contact as Saatchi.

We was the person who was convening this series and gave one of the lectures himself.

When I first got to know him was when I was being interviewed for the job which I still occupy today, and that was in the sort of summer and autumn of 1999 when I went through a whole series of interviews.

I'd been approached by Diane Entrez, Franzer Gibracha, who was the head of the business at the time, to take over a position as administrator, they call it here, the registrar of the london-based inn and I've been through any number of interviews.

I met him, I met the his colleague Dionnim at the time.

I met the presence of the United Synagogue, who is the novel head, the lay head of the charity, the United Synagogue, which employs the Diameter based Inn.

I met the chief executive United Synagogue and I'd be the chief rabbi.

So I I think you can probably come president United States with less of a rational hearings that I had to go through.

And I went to my interview with that with Robbie Sacks to his house.

He lived in a house which Chief Rabbi has always lived in at the time.

They've since sold it and the current chief rabbi has moved to a more Jewish area with him.

The house was in Saint John's Wood in a very, very large building in a street court, Hamilton Terrace, and we sat at this small table in the middle of the large house and had a chat.

He was very, very genial.

I think he was basically he had to interview me.

But when Diane and Troy recommended me in the day and said they're happy with me and the other people were happy with me, he wasn't going to veto it.

So it was a pleasant conversation where he didn't come very far.

He didn't take very long either.

This was really my first one-on-one with with Robbie Sacks.

I saw quite a lot of them, obviously in the ensuing years.

So what was the working relationship like with him?

What types of things were you're interacting with him about?

And I want to specifically get to your editing, which you did, I don't know if that's an official part of the registrar's job.

I, I doubt that.

So how did that become that relationship of you are helping out with natural Torah content?

Yeah, so the story.

So first of all, I would say Rabbi Sacks as a chief Rabe did not spend that much time in the office.

We're, we're, we're in office in, in suburb of London, northwest London, called North Finchley and he was living in Saint John's Wood, which is 6-7 miles down the road.

And his office was there and they worked five days a week in this office, but he rarely was there.

He would either meet people at home or he would work from home.

He would come at the office maybe once or twice a week.

He'd prefer to work from home.

He was very, very much a person who would like the quiet and who liked to study as well.

In terms of he was very into meeting major personalities of the non Jewish and Jewish world.

And he would prefer to invite them to a place in Saint John's which was quite near the center of London but more convenient for them.

And it was to drag them out to some humble set of offices.

Then was in North Fitchley.

So I didn't see that much of him.

And when he was in the office, our officers were very close to each other geographically.

And they still are.

I mean, I'm still just a few yards down the corridor from the current Chief Rabbi.

The obviously we're doing different things.

The, the Chief Rabbi is doing mainly outreach stuff.

I mean, in the terms of interacting with the wider community.

He's visiting schools, he's he's speaking at charity events to put all the different charities gamut of the Jewish community.

He is obviously in contact with the rabbis of the synagogues of which he is chief rabbi.

And that's his function is really to be the rabbi of the rabbis, to help in selecting them, to be a mentor for them, to induct them when they join a new community and to generally be there for them and for the community.

And he's clearly a person who's expected to do a lot of speaking, a lot of writing and this era of work we didn't cross with our era work at all.

We are doing everyday nuts and bolts of halafic processes where there's gay Ruswell, where there's a Jewish status issues allowing people for marriage and you know, looking people's personal status, mum zeros issues.

There's DNA Torah there.

There were get in, of course, very, very major issue.

So these were the everyday activities which you didn't get involved with.

However, you would meet with the Dionan usually on a weekly basis and we would discuss issues, not individual cases, because that wasn't the point, but any issues which had halachic or policy considerations, what were going on in the shul, going in the community generally, relationship with other synagogue bodies, those sort of things we did to discuss with him.

And that's where I saw him in action, so to speak, but not so much on a personal level, other than the part of a group of people meeting with him in a meeting.

But there weren't.

It wasn't a large group.

And then you also were responsible for reviewing some of his writings and helped to prepare those for print.

How did that come to be?

So I I came to the best in 1999 and my role here started in 2002.

So what happened is a book called The Dignity of Difference, which he had written.

But in this book I think he wanted to bring it out on the anniversary of 911, which had happened in 2001.

And he wanted to show the world that religions don't have to be in great conflict with each other, not to blow yourself up in order to achieve spiritual refinement.

He wanted to show there's another way.

It's always of toleration, the voice of moderation.

And that's what this book was intended to do.

It wasn't a book contended specifically.

The Jewish community was certainly aiming for a much wider audience.

And this book, as I say, he wanted to get out with a particular anniversary in mind.

And he had proofreaders at the time who would look over his writings, colleagues, people to check for the grammar, people to check for the content.

And I don't, you know, the summer of, of the problem is, as you know, September was the month in which the anniversary fell, and preceding September, you've got summer holidays when hardly anybody's around.

And I don't know who did proofread this book or who who had reviewed it, but the book was a bit of a public relations disaster when it first came out.

In the first few weeks there, there was no comment at all, generally speaking.

Then a group of rabbis, I think in the Manchester area and the north of England decided that they had seen things in the book which they believed to be sacrilegious, almost blasphemous and suggestion that other when no religion has a monopoly on the truth and there are there's truth in all religions.

Various comments such as that which offended them greatly.

And they gave this quite a lot of publicity as a result of which he felt constrained to sit down with one other on him and actually rewrite only the fewer so-called offending passages which had caused so much grievance to these rabbis in North Manchester.

What then happened is that the left wing thought this was quite ridiculous, that he's cow tying to the right wing fanatics and extremists.

So he got stick from them as well.

And that really wasn't a very pleasant situation.

This came at the end of a poor summer for him because this wasn't the only incident which really gave him a knock.

I mean, this has nothing to do with my proofreading anymore.

But earlier in that summer he had also given a an interview to a major British newspaper, a national newspaper called The Guardian, which is a left wing.

So it started as a liberal, became quite a left wing newspaper and they were never sympathetic towards Israel.

The last 20-30 years and they till today, they are more obstructive and more oppositional than ever.

But they gave him an interview and I've never heard the whole interview, seen bits of it in an article which was written.

But the main point was at some stage during the interview, he must have said something like doesn't necessarily agree with everything that the Israeli army does.

And they turn that into the salacious headline they were looking for.

Chief Rabbi doesn't like or or criticizes Israeli army.

And this didn't go well.

It didn't go down well at all in Israel, as you can well imagine, where the army is the sacred cow.

You cannot do that.

The security of difference and came about a month or back, about a month or two after the incident of the Guardian article and in the autumn of 2/20/21, it was his worst time ever.

There's no question he was very, very depressed about it.

You know, pondering the future, wondering where she carry on or not.

Anyway, during this time, Chief executive wonderful woman called Sima Weinberg, She now she lives in Israel now in her retirement, she said to me, look.

In future publications, can you take a look at them as well just to cast an eye over them?

You're not there to check the grammar, although frequently I did because that's what I do on a proofreading anything of a final thing which I find doesn't quite fit in.

I noticed this mistakes very that's something about very quick read and I I don't miss a word.

And from then on all the way through, not only through the rest of the Chief Robin because remember it wasn't part of my job description.

She asked me to do it and wasn't saying I was doing that at the very beginning, as you've heard.

And even when he left the Chief Ramana, So I think in 2013, I carry on doing that till he passed away tragically so early.

So I continued to do this job and almost where every book he wrote after that time, every article he wrote and he was writing every week for covenant compensation for a number of years now, some of them being put into books.

I was reading those regularly weeks and weeks ahead and checking them.

And my role was to really make sure that no trouble is going to come out of this, that you should avoid controversy.

There should be no more knocking down the doors and saying whatever you talking about, So was that was my role.

Well, and were there any other, were there any times where you guys like disagreed where there are some of that you thought one way and he thought the other way and was he like receptive to the feedback in general?

Was he humble or very insistent on his ideas?

You know, firstly, he's a humble person.

He really was a humble person.

And, and many of the things I pointed out were not major things.

There were suggestions, advice about how you might want to put this, for example, when in one particular book I kind of read where she talked about evolution and the age of the universe.

And and I said, look, it's all very well.

You can put that, but have an appendix at the back, which he did do to show what the rabbinic basis is for evolution.

There are a lot of minds who have actually accepted this and have written on it.

Just do that so that you're covered.

And he accepted it and, and introduced that in the main, most of my there was very little wrong with with what he wrote.

I have to say this, but occasionally when there was some factual mistakes or or better ways of putting things, you know, citing a particular because it's not a midrashic and this is Drush, there's suddenly comes the conversations are Drush and in Drush, it's never necessarily a an absolute truth Midrash him themselves argue about all sorts of things this week said rather said Rose.

You will find different Midrash, but that's if you are going down a particular line and plugging a particular line, you sometimes have to just point out to the to the reader that there are other views on the way this passage is looked that that was a main.

Those are the main points I would raise and he would always take these on board.

Well, one of the occasions when I just didn't agree and, and he we agreed to disagree.

I mean, I can give you an example is it's quite funny.

I was looking back in preparation for today and some of my emails going back a decade or so, but this e-mail actually was more only from four years ago, 2021 when you had really passed away.

Colin were working on the format, which has actually just been published in the last few weeks.

And then of course, trying to put together a commentary on the homage based on his comments conversations, because it was the work he had started off to do.

And unfortunately, his tragic illness at the end cut short his his work on that homage.

So they've had to do the work themselves, gleaning it from various extracts from Covenant conversation and comments he'd made in Drashot and and his Drashot were a pleasure to read.

Of course.

They were a delight to me.

So funny enough, they they sent me just simply a sample of one of his commentaries, which I'd seen many times before when I'm reading his and it was from Pasha Toledot the two weeks time I wrote back and these are these sort of words in my emails in 2000.

Anyway, I wrote back to his staff saying I personally always felt a little uncomfortable.

But this I, I said prompt the one e-mail, the one article you're going to show me, the one extract you're going to show me is the one which makes me least comfortable.

I said I've always personally felt a little uncomfortable about the the Lords.

That was actually his thesis that Jacob had a complex about wishing to be his brother and then he realized his potential after the clash with the Angel representing Asaph in part of the Isla.

And I said to I've made similar comments in the past when reviewing covenant conversation.

Well, I made that point.

It went ahead anyway.

And another one another area I didn't agree, but you know, you can have views on this was his view on slavery.

He he wanted, he was writing for an audience which was not necessarily religious.

Sometimes even Namjoos were reading this as well.

And he wanted to stress that the Torah is against slavery and he drawn certain aspects of the way in which you treat a slave.

I mean, first of all, he didn't always make the distinction in every, every, every Kanani.

That's one point.

But secondly, even with ever Kanani and he, he was really making out as if the world wasn't yet ready to emancipate all its slaves.

But it was, it had that intention and it was going along that and in that direction.

I'm just trying to get you ready for it.

And I didn't see any indication of that in the Torah.

It's sort of the owner by entire voto that you mustn't even free your slave.

And the Kumar talks about various instances where people did free their slaves and ask how could they do so.

I didn't see that indication of it.

He thought he was writing for an audience that wanted to hear this sort of thing, but I didn't agree.

And, and I made that, I made that point and and he went ahead anyway.

And you didn't get into trouble, right?

There was 2 points, by the way, so there were occasions when we disagreed.

For the vast majority of the time, there's absolutely nothing to disagree about, just just to make helpful comments.

And I, I, I am fascinated that you mentioned the appendix to the Book of the Great Partnership, mainly because I remember reading it specifically in the Plaza dormitory of Karen B Ave.

and being blown away by that particular section.

So I guess I can now have the chance to say I can talk to you for making that suggestion.

And it was certainly a really mind blowing experience.

So thank you.

And that's very, very interesting.

I just want to go back a little bit.

You mentioned the, the, the genesis of your role being this summer of 2002 where there are these two crises that, that, that rocked by Saks and his office and his, and his stature in the community, which is fascinating.

You know, now he's revered by so many, many people in the Jewish world and the non Jewish world.

And yeah, it's interesting to think how going back, you know, 20 year before his passing, there was this real crossword crossroads.

Can you talk a little more about how he handled that controversy and how he was able to find the resilience to move forward despite what seemed to have been a very difficult period?

Well, I think initially it did knock him, but he got back onto his feet and he continued writing, continued preaching and he has so much to offer.

That's it's he just healed itself.

It it he has, he grew a following and I think he grew that following through his writing, through his speaking.

I mean, you don't find many better orators in the world today.

Then he was an outstanding orator and he was a standing writer, which is such a rarity to find both those qualities in one person.

You can hear fantastic orators who can't put pen to paper at all and vice versa, people who written books but you, they stand up and they stammer and all over the place.

And he was absolutely articulate.

He's work perfect.

He was really a fantastic speaker and writer.

You know, truth without people see quality when they're confronted.

There was also a point that he left the chief laminate in 2013 that seven years before he passed away.

At that stage he had far more time.

He was, he was freed from the bother, if you like, of going to these tiny communities dying on their feet in, in little parts of Rural England.

And he was able just to simply write and teach and appear at places and study at teach at university.

And he gained a much wider audience than just immediate the parochial audience of, of, of the UK, which was big in itself.

I mean, in the UK he became a major personality.

I mean, it was quite extraordinary.

If you look now, I've been to a few tributes to him in the last few years since his passing away.

There have been three of them that have attended.

One involved a conversation between Tony Blair, who was Prime Minister of this country for umpteen years.

And he had a conversation with some Uncle Matthew, Dan Kona, who is a major journalist in memory of Raleigh Sacks.

And this was hoax about the late Jacob Roschard, the Lord aristocrat to the highest order, not religious at all.

And he was in a stately home in Britain called Spencer House related in some ways to the family of King Charles's first wife Dana Spencer brand building of just of Piccadilly beautiful venue.

And you have, you know, a non Jewish Prime Minister talking in terms of just absolute admiration of of of our rabbi.

And then two years ago, in 2004, I went to a a lecture just before a pass I've given by that Tony Blair's successor as Prime Minister.

And I called Gordon Brown, brilliant speaker as well.

He spoke throughout an hour and a quarter without a note in front of him, pacing up and down the stage.

But his admiration for Jonathan Sacks, for whom, for who's one of his books, he actually wrote the foreword was extraordinary.

And this year, just before Passoff.

Yeah.

And at King's College London, there's another memorial lecture, this time given by a former Archbishop of Canterbury.

This is head of the Church of England, guy called Rowan Williams.

And I mean, this was just unbelievable just to hear the respect that he had for Jonathan Sacks and his knowledge as well of Jewish theology.

I mean, to hear Ronald Williams quoting Robert Soloveitchik a few times, just mind blowing.

I mean, you know, this is the head, the gulf, the head of the Church of England.

And if you see the sorts of places where, which Jonathan Sacks attended during his lifetime, both as chief rabbi and afterwards, it is absolutely extraordinary.

You, you are somewhere about his impact on the public square.

You can't begin to imagine how influential he was.

Very shortly after I joined the Bath Inn in June 2000, I was invited by Sima Weinberg, the chief executive's office, to a meeting at Windsor Castle, the home of the royal family, for a meeting.

It was called the Saint George's Lecture.

Now there is a society called St.

George's House.

It's, it's based on the Chapel, a grand beautiful Chapel at Windsor Castle, the grounds of Windsor Castle.

And this is a group of Christian laymen, not priests, but professors of theology and people who run, run cathedrals and churches up and down the country.

And they have a retreat every year.

That's Windsor.

And they always asked for a star speaker and they invited him.

And of course, he said, I can't speak.

They knew they normally speak in Saint George's Chapel where he said, well, we can't do that, sorry.

So instead they did it in some, of course, in George's Hall, which is the longest room in winter Castle ring, long narrow room going was the width of the castle and sort of the length of the castle, I should say.

I mean, the chief, the Duke of Edinburgh was the husband of the Queen was presiding over this event.

He was half a mile away from me and and right in the front of October, Jonathan Sacks.

And he gave a speech about an hour and 15 minutes.

It was fluent.

It was full of stories, anecdotes, humor.

And the guys around me actually mainly go him around me were absolutely spellbound by and this was his reach.

This was his rage.

It was amazing.

And you, you just saw people in the public domain, they regarded him, especially his later years, even after he finished with the chief rabbit as as the power example of, of brilliant Speaking of, of the ability to sell God.

I mean, there was a, there was a guy, I, I wrote this down.

I've been looking back at I remember reading it.

There's a guy called William Reese Mogg who was he's not alive anymore.

He was the an editor of the Times, which is the quality paper of record of England.

He had been chair of the governors of the BBC.

So he's a a very, very prominent Catholic layman.

And he wrote some years ago, the voice of moral and spiritual leadership in Britain passes between different religion, religion leaders in different generations today.

Robbie Sachs was the one who's best made the case for God.

This is a capital who doesn't look to the Ashford of Westminster, who is the man in charge of the Catholic Church in England, the Pope's representative.

He doesn't look to the Ashford of Canterbury.

He looks to Rabbi Sacks, the head of a tiny community compared to the sort of numbers that they number among their followers.

And that's what he was saying about about our brother.

The the influence he had was absolutely extraordinary.

So I want to jump in with another question here because as you said, his light on the nation's was so bright, so remarkable, so unique.

But for people like us who are baitora in the workforce, how can, what can we take from his legacy and his thought that we can actually apply without being Rabbi Sachs?

But to be on our own very micro level, someone who represents God and spreads the light of God and Torah values in the public square where we find ourselves on a day-to-day basis in our careers and our professions.

So it is very difficult because we don't have a we don't have his erudition.

We certainly don't have what what his his great advantage in life was.

He was one of them.

He was brought up within the British educational system.

He didn't go to Jewish schools and he went to the top universities in England, Cambridge and Oxford, Cambridge.

And he spoke like them, sounded like them, talked like them, had the same educational background.

I don't we who perhaps came from sideways she wish backgrounds have the erudition that he had to represent and and certainly in a way that he was able to do.

I mean there are very very few rabbis today that I can think of who would be invited to any of the forum that I just suggested.

Whether it's the Saint George's Society at at Windsor Castle, whether it's the Lambeth Conference of of Anglicans, very, very few robbers who have that grasp and is possibly because he wasn't brought up Yeshivish and he wasn't brought up learning Gomorrah.

I mean, you certainly the first one I ever learned was when at university with with another student who had beat yeshiva.

So we don't have the Calum, so to speak, other than to as if you say he's been a terror, then we have Calum only to first of all be a Kadisha Sherman.

Everything we do in honesty and integrity to obviously treat people with utter respect, everybody we meet with.

But much more than that, we don't really have the the forum in which to spread the word, so to speak.

But it is enough for us, I think, for, for people in the outside world to gain a kiddo show.

No, to make a kiddo show simply by acting in the best possible to show that even though we do very crazy things to them or we switch all, all electoral things on Shabbat and all this sort of thing which they generally can't understand.

But we do have a part to play.

We don't swear in public.

We, we dress in, in sneezed it manner.

We don't womanize in public, all these sort of things which goes on in the workplace.

Religious Jews have certainly an ability to be mikharishim shamayim, simply by doing what they're supposed to be doing and not doing well.

They're not supposed to be, more importantly.

Oh, you transitioned at a certain point from being a a lawyer to working in these Jewish communal bodies.

Now, these institutions, they exist in in different shapes and forms in America and England and Israel.

But the various community institutions are so important, so critical.

They also get criticized a lot and they get a lot of Flack from different people.

So can you talk a bit about how our vice acts, thought about the role, what they should be playing, where their limitations are, what they shouldn't be involved in as far as these big Jewish institutions?

Well, the main decisions he was interested in was schools.

I mean, he wrote a lot about will we have Jewish grandchildren.

He was very into the fact that Jewish children should be in Jewish schools.

And to be fair, during his chief Rabinet, a much larger section of the Jewish population.

And I'm not about the formal population now I'm talking about people are normally Orthodox butts and even Reform who wouldn't dream of having gone sending his children to Jewish schools 50 years ago.

Then the parents haven't got to Jewish schools, but they did send their children to Jewish schools.

And this was what he was always aiming for.

How much was that was due to his propaganda on this point.

How much it was due to the fact that London was being swamped by immigrants and you know, of all shapes and sizes and it was perhaps safer from bullying, from racism to be in a Jewish school.

Also Jewish schools, because public exam records are are made public, the Jewish schools were performing very, very well as against the state schools and which were taking in anybody.

I mean, obviously there were other schools in this country, private schools, which was on Anomaly England schools, public schools.

But when a public school didn't ignore anything but public it's it's, it's a private school, very high fees paid for them.

So Jews were always sending to those schools and some do continue to do so to get the best education possibly for their children.

But so there was a great increase in the Jewish population in Jewish schools.

How much of a difference that was made in terms of observance?

We're now hitting a new generation.

There are two problems #1 some of these so-called Jewish schools are Jewish in name.

And yes, they'll get a little bit of deafening and a bit of this and a bit of that.

But in the main, the Jewish studies provision in not the ones for the Khalidi community or the even the Right Being World Norfolk's community.

I'm talking about the mainstream community, which in England is not famous Shabbas.

These schools, even though they've got Jew in their name, they have very, very little Jewish studies provision.

The kids who come out of there are not Jewishly illiterate in any sense of the term that we would regard to Jewishly illiterate in terms of being fluent and being able to pick up a coarse rush and understand it.

And so I think if rather sex would come back now, and I, I think he would, he would be disappointed in a way that the community hadn't moved along more than it should have.

It's all very well in Jewish schools, but how Jewish are those Jewish school?

Got it.

And so for people who are in the workforce, they're baitora.

What are the other central ideas?

We spoke a little bit about being a manager making.

What are other central ideas that everybody Sax would want to impart on us as we embark on these careers of living lives that are significant and completely aligned with our values, but also successful in the career professional sense as well?

But I think, I mean, I think, I think you'd want us to be very proud of our Yiddish night and not shy away from it at all.

I think at the moment the massive challenge, the biggest challenge of any Jew anywhere in in outside Israel is to defend Israel because 1/2 the population Jewish population of the world lives in Israel and and B Israel is under attack like never before.

I think he would be appalled, absolutely appalled to see where it's gone to.

And he, it was bad enough, even when he's alive, he wrote enough times about anti-Semitism being the virus which mutates the whole time.

And he, he would be appalled to the lengths at which is gone in, in the last two years, how, how Amitism has proliferated and become mainstream and how you can repeat the libels and the jibes of genocide and colonialism and apartheid enough times and it's just become mainstream.

You know, you repeat enough times, the lie sticks.

And and I think the other issue, which you would really, I probably want to grapple with other I don't know how you do it is the social media, because he wasn't from the social media generation.

None of us were.

And social media is having a massive effect on the Jewish youth who are getting their views from places which they shouldn't be.

I mean, we, we, we know even the United Synagogue are just looking at a recent survey attitude was Israel are far more negative from the under 30s in under 40s.

And the older you get, the more people are pro Israel.

That's nothing to do with religion as such.

It's to do with what they're even exposed to.

And the Tik Toks and the Instagrams and all the others they are peddling the filth of and, and, and the propaganda and the lies and the anti-Semitism and these and our kids are absorbing it.

And I think you'll be very, very concerned about that what we can do about in Nepali square.

I mean, it's more than what he's doing in our homes.

It's our children, it's our children.

Forget about trying to make the goyim understand.

Although there is a role in that as well.

And it was got non Jewish friends and I think quite a lot of people there is a private support for Judaism or for Jews in the Israel matter.

It's very, very difficult for them if if they're exposed to the national broadcaster here, the BBC and others in this war over the last two years.

If you weren't and died in the war, Jew.

And Israeli supporter, you would be anti Israel.

I would also be Andrew if the only diet I had of viewing would be the BBC every night broadcasting from Gaza where they're not even allowed in so they just take whatever footage they're sent by the Gazans.

And quoting the casualty figures from the Gaza health ministry without saying this is actually a propaganda organ of the of the Hamas government.

Therefore why are you quoting it at all?

You would also be anti Israel.

It would be very difficult not to be so I I think the royal house would want us to support Israel as much as possible and, and to and to clarify the facts.

But it has to start at home as well, because it's our kids who have to be convinced of this, not just the lunges around us, because we we can see our.

But surely you'll find it similar.

People of university age and beyond in America, those going to college are going to be less sympathetic to Israel than those who were in college for 20 years ago.

There's something maybe between the lines of what you're saying that I just wanted to to point out and maybe ask you to go a little deeper on is that a lot of things that you're talking about and you're focusing on are issues that when you talk about the Jewish communities much the Jewish community is not what we would call the Orthodox or Chamatara mitzvos or yeshiva community.

So it seems that Rebbe Sacks was very much focused and poured a lot of energy into making sure that those Jews are engaged and educated and inspired.

So is that also something that we should maybe be a little more careful about?

And, and, you know, realize that we have a responsibility not just for the the kind of our own children who are going to want to send to yeshiva and make into Gdola and urban.

And that's all very important.

But really make sure that we're thinking about the Jewish education of all Jews.

Even those are a little bit different.

For sure, for sure.

I mean, Kirov is absolutely essential.

It is.

It's absolutely essential.

There are so many Jews out there who have no fault on their own, have been abandoned by their parents and their grandparents, and they know so little.

And so for sure.

And that's why he was writing for lots of these people.

And he was trying to bring them back, not by shoving Torah down their necks, but by, you know, why I, why should I be Jewish?

So there's some wonderful little pamphlets.

So he wrote for Rush M Kapoor about, you know, the questions you may want to ask and what you should be teaching your children.

He was trying to draw people in.

And I think he has had a certain degree of influence, but there's so much more we can all do.

I mean, if we, if we have the opportunity.

I mean, I, I don't live in that sort of area in one, I'm not the age to be interacting with kids of that age.

But if somebody has access to children of the mainstream in, in your, in your, you're in Israel anyway.

So it's a bit difficult.

But if you meet, meet with Phil on him, and I think there is in Israel, certainly, certainly as a result of this war, there are people on him who are coming back or realizing, you know, it's, it's the hatred that comes towards us which is inspiring somebody.

But as well, we're on our own now.

We want to stick together and perhaps look at our own culture and our own heritage there.

There's so much to be said for that.

OK, so let's go to our rapid fire round 3 Short questions, three hopefully short answers.

We've now transitioned to the winter.

We have nice long Friday nights.

So what do you like to do at that time?

Well, I spent a lot of my time learning not, not kind of a great person, but simply because I I during the week, I have two little time to learn.

I mean, I do learn every day, but not with the same clear head as you have on a Friday.

And I've even better on the shop this morning.

I mean, I, I go to a very early media shop this morning and I spent two or three hours and just sitting and learning.

When your head is so clear and there's no distractions through the week, it is difficult to learn.

I mean, whatever you're doing, even if you do get up early and learn or at the end of the day, but you know your emails are flying there in subconscious, there's things going on.

Many of my distractions are in a Jewish interest because I'm honey get based in, but it's not the same as terrible.

You're you're working for a based in and I will work for a Jewish charity as well, giving legal advice to a Jewish charity.

And so I think you're doing this in Shamaya and for the Jewish public, but it's not for your own personal growth and and learning.

There's something better than to learn actually, I mean, and those are the times.

Friday, Friday nights, not so easy.

We often have social you have people friends around to me invited friends, in which case Friday nights doesn't get spent in the most positive way.

If I'm at home are those lonely.

Finance was just the two of us with my wife and he's really early in that because here shops comes in ridiculously early times in midwinter.

Then I would go to sleep about 10 minutes for a power nap and then you carry on.

Amazing learning is the best thing, but they're not everybody's for learning.

I understand not everybody's got the zits flash.

I've been blessed with the business.

I'm not a great learner but but I have got the ability to at least concentrate.

Beautiful, beautiful.

So you've been through so many Ever Sachs's writing before they satellite a day.

Do you have a favorite book or essay or idea from Every Sachs?

Probably not their favorite ideas.

I mean he writes brilliantly and I mean he's kind of conversations of beautiful nugget sized Debray turtle.

I'm brought up in slightly different tradition where the director are not full of, you know, non Jewish philosophers and bits of history, but it's still it was also delights to read.

I mean, they are the light to read and I enjoy all his books.

I mean, you know something, if you don't have a classical education to read his books is a bit of a compensation because you can learn so much about what you've missed.

Not going to a top class university and not not spending your youthful years starting second subjects because there's so much there.

You'll teach about psychological experiences which you'd never organize, know about, you know, you teach about philosophical trends.

I, I like so much of his stuff.

He is from Zorim in particular, but it's fantastic introduction sees the fuck in which are really really well for others.

Favorite of mine, yes.

Amazing, amazing, beautiful.

So now final question.

If you were forced today to leave your job, leave the legal profession, leave the Jewish community work that you've been doing, and choose a new job in a new industry, anything that you are in the world, maybe something you dream of doing as a kid or have an itch to do, what would that be?

All right, I'm good.

I've done.

I'm well passed retirement age.

A travel guide may meet with me.

I've got, I love travel, I love Jewish history.

I can take people through Europe and give me quite a good go at explaining what happened in these particular places who lived there.

I mean, I've done a lot of Europe as in terms of Jewish history and there is a lot there.

So probably travel guide.

Amazing.

Mr.

David Fry, thank you so much for joining us.

OnStar Tank.

We really appreciate you coming on and sharing all these experiences, memories and thoughts of our by Sax and his legacy.

Thank you.

Thank you.