You don't have to love your job, but you can't hate your job.

And I'd say in the first one, 2-3 years of your experience at big law, you will have no problem keeping Torah U mitzvahs.

However, your expectation should be going in that you will be spending many, many, if not most of your waking hours at the law firm.

You have to create a system for yourself that will allow you to continue to be successful in terms of in terms of keeping tour mitzvahs.

And also, it's not about maintaining, it's about growing.

One way to look at it or look at certain developments is you're slipping.

Another way to look at it is you have very high standards, maybe unrealistic high standards.

So the.

Difference between slipping and reassessing and then reassessing again because after six months you say, OK, look, am I able to do this now to have things change?

Shalom Alaissam and welcome to Start Tank.

Start Tank is a podcast by the challenges and opportunities of being a mentor in the workforce.

This week we're joined by Rabbi Yehuda Halpert is a Sholrov, a lawyer and an author.

We're going to talk about all those things in this conversation, so thank you for being here with us.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm very honored to be amongst those who have been who have joined you on this podcast.

It's a very esteemed group.

So let's get into it.

You're a lawyer and a rabbi.

Which one came first?

How did that come about?

Take us through the story.

Sure.

So, you know, I think a lot of times folks think that they they have a plan and they're going to follow the plan and everything just going to go A through ZI guess that oftentimes does not happen.

I am I am a lawyer first, so I graduated to college.

I knew I was going to go to law school and I you know, so I started off in law school and while I was in law school, I was, you know, I was learning and one of the ways that I think a lot of the guys in Yu, one of the ways to keep your Saddam when you're in law school is to be in a program.

So I was actually in I did some Smitha, some of the Smitha classes while I was in Yu, but I did Smitha be I was in Smitha before law school and then I went to went to law school and then when I graduated law school, I went straight into law.

I was at a firm called wild Gotcha mangies and I was there for three years and with no intentions of being a shore Rob and and Smitha was was not on the not on the horizon.

After three years actually went to my family and I went we came back to we came to Israel and we were in gross for the year and by being in gross.

And that's when I kind of pivoted a little and kind of had a little bit of a awakening and I decided I wanted to go back and try to do something in Rob on us on some way, shape or form.

And I ended up finishing Smeecha.

I went back when I went back to the states, I actually went back to a law firm full time for a year or two, but was not in the cards at that point in time.

I was, I was looking around.

I, I had my eyes on trying to do, trying to do something in Ribonis.

I was getting sure, I'm on the side.

I was doing different types of things.

But at that point I, I was looking around.

And so then I actually switched from from the law firm, I was out to another law firm.

And then I was, I was at Debbie Boys and Clinton.

And while I was at Debbie Boys and working as an attorney, an opportunity came up for what they call a court of book Chavez only shul, which is what Congregation ABBA Chalam is.

Congregation ABBA Chalam is a, it's a community in Teaneck, NJ.

Teaneck, NJ is kind of split on terms of different sections.

And one section has a lot of apartments, has a lot of different apartment complexes.

And they have a shul there that's in the high school and it's right over there.

So there are many, many shules in Teaneck and there's really no need for another fully functioning shul right there where those apartments are.

But in terms of a Shabbos shul, people choosing not to walk so far and just having like a nice more communal shul.

So there's a shul there that meets on Shabbos only.

So my thinking at the time was that I would dip my toe in and I figured I could do a type of pulpit, a Stella that was only that only had the Shabbos obligations.

And because of the demographic of the community, I'd say a lot of the pastoral needs of a full time rabbanos, a full time community, we're certainly much less.

As I'd like to say to people I have, I really focus on sham's offers and braces.

Those are the main rabbinic riveting things that that I'm able to focus on.

And because of that, I was, I was able to balance that while while being a lawyer.

And you know, over the years, things kind of shift back and forth in here, but as long as you're flexible, you can kind of get things to work.

And can you take us back to that time in gross, you mentioned there was some sort of awakening.

Was that like a certain revenue you had an influence on you, a certain experience that you were able to draw?

And I wonder what more like made you see things differently.

That's an interesting question.

I don't know if the year in gross was an awakening in the sense of like this epiphany or if it was just a little bit of a moment of transition in our lives.

I think certainly when you're most of the people who are in gross, for people who are not familiar gross cola, that's the chief university's coal in Israel and kind of the folks in gross are break into kind of two categories.

I think they're actually, I haven't been there in a very long time, at least when I was there, there was there were folks who kind of using it as a stepping stone to making Alia.

There were folks who wanted to go into Robanus and we're using it as part of this makeup program and there were folks who just wanted to learn and they were not really sure.

So I think when you're surrounded with a cyber like that and a group of people who are very focused on kind of responsibility to to call you to all Tommy's role and really very idealistic people.

And obviously W Miller, who runs the coal and Rob Cathette and and Robert Danny Mann, who was there at the time.

These are all people who who influence you both by their words, but also by their actions, and you see the impact that they were able to have on people.

And I think it stirs something inside of you to say, you know what?

Hey, look, I you know, I think I can do that.

Also.

I think also coming off of not going straight from Yu into Griz Cola, but kind of having been in the workforce for three years, I think you really kind of like you see the contrast between a very kind of all in full time focus on work and career and professionalism.

And not that there's anything wrong with that.

I think it's very important.

But you know that that kind of focus.

And you see people who are, you're always looking kind of people who are five, 1015 years ahead of you.

And you see all those people, you know, where, where do they end up?

Kind of what's their focus?

What are their priorities?

What have they accomplished?

And sometimes you look at yourself and say, OK, look, if in 15 years from now, if that's what I've accomplished, is that really what I want?

Can I do something else?

Can I do something different?

And I think kind of so taking that year and kind of looking around saying like, you know what, I don't necessarily want to see myself at a law firm in 20 years from now having accomplished those types of things without boss also having given back on some of these other areas.

So I get, I don't know if that's an epiphany.

I don't know.

I don't know what's if there's an exact, there's very rarely that like kind of that moment in time.

But I think that experience definitely led me when I, when we went back to the States and we were back in the law firm to kind of be continuously looking around for it to be able to do more.

And when you were looking at these people who are five years, 10 years, 15 years ahead of you, you, you, the way you formulated it, it was a more of a sur mera.

There was a certain something there that you didn't want to be that you said people were all in, were there people who you looked at and said, wow, that person is someone who I want to take after someone who was already balancing Kodesh and Hall and and professionalism and and rabbinics that you said, maybe I want to be like him.

Or it's more just like you wanted a new pass and it was a little bit different than what you were seeing amongst your sort of peers and see.

Yeah.

So I just want to clarify one thing I don't obviously there's it's the expression kind of rolls off the tongue.

So you know, so I don't, I just want to clarify.

It wasn't that I was in an area of, of, of RAW in the sense that the folks who were fully focused on their careers in any way, shape or form were, were pursuing RAW.

But I think it was more an issue of kind of priorities and goal oriented.

So, and especially at a law firm, if you're once you're there for a bunch of years and you're on a like a more of a partner track, you are all in in that sense.

And it's very, it's very hard to create space and make room for, for other areas.

So and against.

I don't think it's an issue of raw.

I think it's an issue of issue of priorities and kind of ordering, ordering kind of life, what life goals and objectives in terms of folks who are inspiring, you know, there there were actually, there were, there were definitely folks at the law firm that I was at who were balancing, I'd say kind of commitment to Torah and and a full legal life quite a bit.

One of one of the partners who I was there was getting a full time Daphne share in Brooklyn.

Absolutely.

I think a few years ago he retired and I think he's learning full time.

There are other folks in the, in the firm who were very, you know, who were, who were very, very committed and, you know, Orthodox Jews.

Again, a lot of the folks in the firm were truly committed to the correct their, their legal craft.

And that was an all-encompassing pursuit.

And they were, they were very good at it.

They were excellent at it and they were leaders in their fields.

But I just felt that there was more that I wanted to do than just professionalism and just to be successful professionally in terms of what I was looking to accomplish.

I want to maybe like go deeper.

You are talking about a very important point here and I I'm not meaning to call anybody specific or by name or not by name.

But if you have to take someone coming to you for advice.

He's coming out of you know, learns of the issue of a system the the year in Israel you should be university.

He wants to become a lawyer.

Do you think there's something wrong if he will say to you, I want to be one of those lawyers who is really at the top of my legal craft, even though that's going to come all in, I'll hush bone my other things.

Is that saying that you view as something wrong for someone from our higher, for lack of a better term that we should objectively, is there are the two good paths here or for many to guys like me and you, they should really be thinking about maybe more more of your mindset versus other mindset, which maybe comes from more of the secular world.

That's a very, that's a very deep question and I can only give you my, my personal opinion on it.

So to be clear, I think if someone begins down the path of their legal profession and feels that they want to be that this is their calling, this is their passion and they feel that they can be successful in it.

And they can be at the top of their at the top of their profession or even not in the top of the profession.

They can be as good as they can be in that in their legal path and they pursue it.

And they are traumat or mitzvos and they are making a kiddush A sham and they are acting professionally and ethically and morally.

I think 100% that's a total less akilo.

I think if that individual has come to the conclusion that this is their top kid, this is what they're good at, this drives them and they're able to and they're doing it in a proper a proper way.

And they're making a kid as a sham.

And they're showing up to work every day and people are looking at them and saying, wow, you know, this is this is he's knows doing it.

He's doing well.

I think 100% if that's if that's your calling and that's your tough kid, then I think that's great.

And at that same time, would I say to somebody, OK, look, I think you need to make time within that within a hunt within you going in all in to be the best bankruptcy lawyer in New York City or to be the best MNA lawyer in New York City, You need to make time for, for family and for Torah and from exposed and professed and, and to build that in.

And I think you can, I think, you know, you know, from in big law, I, I think it's hard to do many, it'll be hard to do many, many hours of that just because there are so many hours that you're going to be at the law firm.

But I know many people who are highly successful attorneys who are, who are highly successful Jews, who are highly success, highly successful Strawberry Torrem exposed.

And I think I would never say that that they have not pursued A Lacula path.

And I think for them, they have, they have done a tremendous job.

They've they've and they've demonstrated to the world and kind of look, I'm a product of why you, I'm a product of Torremada.

They've demonstrated to the world that you can succeed at the highest levels of in the secular workplace and still maintain Torah values and not only maintain Torah values.

You can be a, a role model in or lagoon and you can be successful in both areas.

It's, it's hard, it's tough, it's a challenge.

It's you know, but So what that's your life is supposed to be a challenge, But I don't know.

I don't know you let.

So no, I, I don't think I don't.

I think that's 100% of the I feel a path.

I think the question is for each individual.

I say to people all the time, you don't have to love your job.

They're, you know, one out of 102 out of 103 out of 100 people get lucky and they love their job.

You know, they play center field for the New York Yankees.

They love their job.

Or alternatively, some people are deeply passionate about what they do and they love their job and that's great.

And they're lucky.

You don't have to love your job, but you can't hate your job.

You can't.

Or at least we live in, you know, we are, we are very lucky that we live in a world where for the most part, if you hate your job, you can switch careers.

And that that always wasn't always the case for a lot of people is just you didn't, you didn't get to think about whether you liked your job.

You didn't like your job.

You just needed a job and you need to put food on the table.

And that was it.

But thank God, we live in now a society and in a culture where you can kind of choose.

So you don't have to love your job, but you can't hate your job.

So if you come to the law firm every day and you enjoy what you're doing and you're interacting and you get a super kind of fish and you're good at it and you and you feel like you are really contributing to you Shabba Olam, then I I think that's great.

If you do it in Israel, then the rest of my comments, but you should ours.

But if you're doing it in the States, you have the opportunity to make a kiddush Hashem and to support your family, which is is a mitzvah.

If you look at your Khashoggon, Khushan says the Ferish, you leave shul and then you go to work because going to work is a mitzvah because it allows you to support your family and allows you to do positive things in the community.

So I think that's all 100% with Hafila.

But for whatever reason, for me personally, I don't know if it was I always had a paycheck for for Finos or again, maybe it was that exposure engrossed to seeing people who were so excited about a different path, a different pursuit.

Somewhere in my mind I always had some, I always had a face that just being.

I shouldn't say yes, but being a successful lawyer was not how I saw myself, is not where I wanted to see.

And again, not in any way, shape or form negating the value of doing that for somebody who sees themselves as that is their calling.

So you touched on so many important points there.

One, the one I want to follow up on is the experience of being a lawyer at a big law firm.

It's actually a topic that a bunch of listeners have reached out and requested that we talk about here.

I'll give a shout.

I believe the first person to ask me way back when was my friend Avi Ash and others as well.

And it's taken us a while.

You're the first big law lawyer I believe we've had on the podcast.

So tell us a little bit of what that's like.

Is it a very challenging place to be a mentor?

Is it an easy place to be a mentora or certain stereotypes of being very very intense and very cutthroat?

So tell us what your experience has been as being a person who keeps TAR values primary but also has spent many many days, months and years in big law.

So we talked about big law and I'd say for on one hand, you can, you can stereotype and you can can kind of paint with a broad brush all be law firms.

And then at the same time, every firm is a little different, every individual's path is a little different.

But I'll just talk about big Law generally, I don't think so.

And for kind of folks who have not been through the system for big law, what I think defines big law.

So I'll define it for 30 seconds and then I'll go into a little bit more.

But I think defines big law is a little bit of a machine where every year 75 to 100 new lawyers are going to come into a law firm.

And that law firm is going to do a range of five to seven different types of legal work for very large clients.

And you start at year 1 and you kind of go through the system and there's a system and there's your first year, your second year, your third year, and you become a mid level, then you become a senior, then you become a counselor and become a partner, whatever.

And there is this system here.

And in that system, I think stop stage 1.

You absolutely as a shomer shabba, shomer, Toro mitzvos Jew living in New York City in 2025 and go into big law and be successful as a lawyer and be successful as a Torah observatory.

I think there's no doubt of that.

You know, people talk about, oh, we live in a Medina, shellhassad and everything.

And it is so true.

Like it's not even you.

It's not even a question anymore that if you're, again, if you're wearing a Yamaha, people assume that you're going to be Sabbath observers.

There are so many Sabbath observers in Big Law.

There are so many people who so many people who keep kosher in big Law.

There's kosher food and there are other partners who have been successful in big Law who have paved the way.

As long as you are consistent and stand by your by your Torah values from day one and you consistently project that these things are important to you, the people at the law firm will respect that.

And I'd say in the first one, 2-3 years of your experience at big law, you will have no problem keeping Torah U mitzvos.

However, and this is not necessarily unique to big law, you will be spending.

Your expectation should be going in that you will be spending many, many, if not most of your waking hours at the law firm working and billing.

And look, there's no doubt that you know you.

So you have to know that going in and you have to create a system for yourself that will allow you to continue to be successful in terms of in terms of keeping tour mates West.

And also it's not, you know, we, I think a lot of people talk about when they go to the year in Israel, it's not about maintaining, it's about growing or, you know, it's not.

And obviously they're at different points in your life.

There are different you, you have different priorities.

But so like, again, like if you can build into your system, big law usually starts a little later.

You know, bankers get in early, brokers get in early.

Big law in New York usually starts closer to 915 nine 3945.

So you know, you can build in time to learn in the morning.

And if you want to have caboose as you want to be Kabua Kobe E Tim, you can do that in the morning.

If you wait to set up a cabrusa

at 8:00 PM and then, you know, three months later, say, Oh my, you know, I'm so sorry.

I've canceled 85% of my cabrusa's because at 8 PMI wasn't home then like you're you're, you're you're setting yourself up for failure.

So, you know, it really is it is something that can be achieved, but you have to realize two things.

As I said, the vast majority of your time is going to be spent in this profession and you are going to be surrounded with people who are very focused on being successful in that profession.

And success means success often times translates into financial success.

While financial success is is an important part of again, supporting your family and then being a productive member of society, productive member of the Jewish community, should that be your absolute priority.

And when you're surrounded by people who, who, who will put making money as priority #1 you have to be careful that that that perspective, which is not necessarily consistent with all of your other values, is not, does not overtake you.

And, you know, I think there are people who are successful at that.

I think there are people who are, who stray.

Some people see that and go 180% the other way.

Some people see it and it slowly seeps in some people.

You know, it has a subtle effect and you don't know.

But I think the key in big law, just like in any other job is surrounding yourself with people who are who are good people.

And good people doesn't mean good Jews.

Good people just means good people.

There are plenty of plenty of non Jews in the OR or non or non mitzvos, observant Jews in big law who are good people and they value family and they value doing the right thing and they value they take their career seriously and they're ethical and about that.

And there are lots of other people who lots of people in big law, just like in every other profession who are not.

And if you end up surrounding yourself with people who, who are living values that are not consistent with you, it will be very, very tough.

Either you'll constantly be in a battle or you'll start to slip to the other side or you know, so that's what I was saying before is that like not all big law is the same because it really, a law firm could have 56700 lawyers.

Your experience in one department could be diametrically opposed to someone's experience in a different department.

And it's just because people matter.

So if the 20 people that you work with are really, really good people and you're at a firm that has a reputation of being a really crummy firm, but you work with 20 good people, you can have a very good experience and you could be at a great firm where the reputation is good people, family driven, family values, ethical, moral, they won't, you know, they won't cut corners, etcetera, etcetera.

But you're a group of four people are four tough, difficult people.

You will have a, you have a very bad experience and you have to, you know, to learn how to, how to navigate that.

And so you you we're referring to a number of challenges.

You spoke about service, halaha, Kashra Shabbos, you spoke about time management and scheduling and how much time.

And then you mentioned the third thing, which I guess encompasses those two and and many other factors, which is sort of peer pressure and your own set of values versus the values of people around you.

Would you say that the peer pressure when you seem to emphasize that it was that one of the.

The biggest challenges that you've experienced that you see people experience as sort of part A of the question and Part B is has your rabbinic hat helped you in this regard or been more challenging for you in this regard?

So how what are your main coping mechanisms with the with the challenges that that these that these situations bring to you?

So on the peer pressure point, I, I think the peer pressure point has a tremendous impact on individuals and it can really go both ways.

I've seen folks who kind of when they graduated law school or came into the firm would not in 1000 years have thought that they would ever eat kind of eat dairy, eat out, eat out dairy at a, at a client meeting or go to a restaurant and order something.

And then at some point in time, you know, something slips or someone, you know, they're surrounded by people who are maybe a little less careful on some of these things.

And at first they're, you know, they're only ordering salad and then, you know, then they're ordering other things and kind of that that can start a slide or you have, if you're around people who you know, are, are, are working till, you know, if

she is at 5:15 on a, on a winter week, they're working till 5:15 and then they're walking home.

You know, all thing that next, next thing you know, you're working till 5:30 and walking home, then you're working till 6:00.

And you know, and like that kind of thing slips.

And if you were with other people who are kind of doing that same type of thing, it can become very easy for that to be your new normal.

And then all of a sudden, two or three-year, two or three years later, you look back at what you're doing today versus what you would have thought you would have been doing.

You're like, you can't believe that you're there.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have witnessed first hand someone who was at the firm who was Miss Guyer because he saw kind of he really was.

I this was not the sole impetus, but you know, he was really impacted by the way the other Shoma Chavez lawyers at the firm were and interacted and kind of their their focus on other important things.

And I've witnessed people who came into the firm less religious, who became more religious over time.

And I one thing I will say to people, I it's kind of funny because because very important, it's a mitzvah, right?

You have to, you know, it's a miserized and suit to abandon to Davi Minnesota with a minion at big law.

I think can be a career and a life religious life altering aspect.

Because if you're with everything going on in big law, and this is true for investment banking or anything like to stop in the middle of your day and spend that 10 or 15 minutes domining with a minion.

And therefore seeing other people who are even more senior to you or more successful than you, who are also stopping and taking that 10 or 15 minutes and even that 30 seconds of conversation after Mincha or before.

Like it just it makes a difference.

It changes your whole day.

And then you're continuously interacting with people, at least for a few minutes a day, who have a similar set of values with you and who are who are prioritizing dominating Minco with a minion in the middle of everything that's going on.

Now, look, there's no doubt that over the course of a career in big law, there are going to be days that you're not going to make it make a minion.

Like it's just, you know, you could be at a meeting that starts at 11 and doesn't end

till 9:00 PM like that that happens.

You know, it sounds crazy.

You sell that to people like what do you mean?

You can't step out?

You can't step out, right.

So like, OK, you know, speak to your local authorized rabbi about the denim of touch lumen in that case.

But that's if that's the outlier and you're able to put a Minika minion into your big law life.

It happens to be that at different points and times when I was on the east side in our old building downstairs from us with Schulte, Russ and Zabel, they had a minion at Schulte.

So again, so you, you know, you, you were able to get a million in the building, but you know, sometimes you have to walk a block or two, the Citibank or two or there.

But the last few years we've actually had a minion at the firm, which again, is, is a really, it kind of, it changes your, your whole day.

And in terms of just being impacted by your surroundings, I strongly, strongly encourage somebody, even if you weren't a, a die hard, seven days a week, three, 365 days a year, Minco with a minion goer before you start working, when you're thinking of different things that are going to anchor you, I would strongly advise that.

And then I also throw this out as from a networking perspective, go and MIMCA is a, is a great network in perspective.

It's like if you're a second year associate, you're not hanging out with a lot of partners on a regular basis or a lot of senior associates.

But at MIMCA, everyone's there and there'll be like 3 partners and two senior associates and one junior associate.

And it's just an opportunity to meet and interact with people who are more senior to you, who your, your peers and colleagues at the firm are not hanging out with.

And you have this, this additional connection.

So that's a Mashallah lishma balashma idea.

But I I think Mincha is is from a peer pressure perspective is one of those things that can tip you one way or the other.

I'll just mention that I work here at a nonprofit in the negative called Adi Negev Nahat Iran.

And I have a Carusa quote, UN quote with a gardener, part of our gardening staff on the campus here, who is one of the biggest home I've ever met.

And we have like a little rooster shop.

We walk down the stairs together, we'll share of war, we'll ask a question, we'll switch for a few minutes.

And I really cherish that and it really does have a big impact on my day.

So, so I appreciate that a lot.

You were talking about slips, people who start with a certain standard and then it's a little bit lower, a little bit lower.

And there are obviously different types of slips, whether it's talking about a holic idea or a Homer that you had and didn't have.

And I've actually been thinking about that a lot recently because there's certainly this idea of a slippery slope.

And you know, you start out as a young idealistic Yeshua Bahar, you're engrossed and whatever and you start working and life comes at you.

So one way to look at it or look at certain developments is you're slipping.

Another way to look at it is you have very high standards, maybe unrealistic high standards coming out of your, you know, you're single, you don't have kids, you don't have a job, you don't have this and that.

So you develop certain standards, which maybe you shouldn't be there or not really fair to hold yourself to.

And therefore it's not necessarily a slip in all areas.

It could just be coming to a little more of a realistic routine or habits or standards that that actually, you know, Taurus, Taurus time.

It's supposed to be relevant for us and realistic for us.

So I just you have any thoughts about that, about defining good standards, because not every slip is necessarily a bad slip based on what I've been thinking about.

So I'm wondering what your take is.

Sure.

So I'm going to respond to that, I think with a with an anecdote outside of the outside of outside a big law, but kind of the big finance.

I have a friend who was at Goldman Sachs and he had twins.

Thank God they were healthy, great.

And he went to his rub and he said said to his, I'm at Goldman Sachs, I'm working a lot.

I've got twins at home.

He said it can't, I don't have any time to learn.

I just don't like there's no time.

And it was like, what about on the bus?

Because like I fall asleep the second I'm on the bus, I'm up all night.

Like what about here?

What about the guy?

Like I'm like, I'm a serious guy.

Like I'm not trying.

There's that famous must reward.

If I only have 5 minutes a day, what should I learn?

I should learn most because then you realize you have more than 5 minutes.

He's like, they're like, no, no, I don't.

I don't.

The other response was was that's a very honest assessment of where you are.

And you have to realize that at different points in life, you have different, different top kids.

And right now with, you know, you're pursuing this, this profession, we can discuss whether this is where you should be or not, but you're pursuing this and you're pursuing it well and you're doing it well.

And you have two little babies at home.

Said learning tort is not your top kid right now.

And he said to him goes, listen, come back in six months or come back in a year and let's talk about your schedule again.

And I think that's a very different way to think about slipping or hum rows, etcetera, which is, you know, you start big law and you say, look, I'm going to take a Ned there that I'm going to do daffy yomi in the morning and I'm going to do Alaka Yomi at night and I'm going to do da da da da.

And six months later it's not working.

So is that a slip?

Well, if you just kind of let it go, it's a slip.

But if after six months you say, let me take stock and reassess as to what's going on over here and say, you know what, the Dafiomi in the morning at Big Law, I can do that.

I actually know somebody who had a Caruso with a non religious Jew because he was doing Dafiomi in the morning and he started coming into the office earlier and that guy saw him and they started and you know, it was an amazing cure of moment.

But anyway, so I could do the Dafio in the morning, but I can't do that.

So you know what, right now I'm going to reassess and I'm going to say this is where I am and I can do this.

I can't do that.

And you can kind of go down the line.

There's the difference between slipping and reassessing and then reassessing again, because after six months you say, OK, look, am I able to do this now to have things changed?

And also maybe two years later, you said yourself, OK, look, the reality is that I'm never going to be able to have a caboose in the morning and a caboose at night.

What does that mean for me spiritually and religiously in terms of what my goals are, what my objectives are?

Can I maintain a positive kind of religious growth with a caboose only in the morning and not at night?

Or maybe when I'm more senior, things will change and I'll be able to do this.

So that that's constantly reassessment and in constant, that's a positive growth outlook as opposed to what, what kind of describe slipping, which is I want to do this, I want to do this.

I didn't do that.

And you know, I used to be mocked it on ABC and I'm not mocked it on that XYZ where this is kind of this gradual descent where, you know, the classic slippery slope where you're not even aware that is necessarily happening.

And then it's only like 5 years later, you look back and like, wow, how did I get here?

So I think your, your point is a fairpoint, which is a lot of people come into the work on day one and they've been so loaded with the idea, rightfully so, that you need to buttress yourself and you need to strengthen yourself and therefore do a BCDEFG.

And three or four months later or a year later, they realized that's not possible.

So as long as you're honest with yourself and you're saying to yourself, these are the things I can and can't do, you know, and now I'm going to reassess, that's something different.

So another example.

So there's obviously a lot of Hellenic literature about shaking hands with with, with, with women or people of the opposite gender.

You know, a lot of times people come into the law firm be like, this is something I'm going to mock near on and you know, no matter what.

And then as their career progresses, they realize that, you know, there's something that they want to, they want to, they want to take on if they want to change their approach to this issue.

And you know, again, there's, there's valid Hellenic basis on all sides of that.

My focus.

But the question is, why are you changing your approach?

Are you changing your approach because you realize that you know the holistic that that in terms of how your career is, it's very important for you to shake hands and holistically you think it's OK because it's not an issue of Dareciba?

Or do you just not care about that issue anymore?

Like you, you become so calcifies the wrong word.

You become so accustomed to the very physical interactions that take place in a lot of out of secular workplaces that you just don't even think about that as being a Holocaust issue because everyone shake hands.

As a matter of fact, everyone does much more than shaking hands.

So like, what's wrong with me that I'm like, those are two.

So you have a you have two people who walked into the law firm not shaking hands with women.

And two years later, they're both shaking hands with women, but they're in two very different places.

One person has come to the conclusion that it's holically OK and the other person is their whole just their whole world outlook has changed.

So, you know, I think that's that's AI think that's an important way to to analyze and think about cut a quick slipping, right.

I'm just programming note we have 13 more minutes left, so we're going to maybe try to hit on some of these other topics on maybe slightly briefer if we can, if if possible.

So so we're going to do the book and COVID and then the war in Israel and the rapid fire satyr.

Just say it.

OK, obviously came out with a.

Here we go.

I add it, don't worry, the great, the OK.

So we've covered so many important topics and I really appreciate all of the experiences that you bring to this, to these to these issues.

You recently came out with a book.

So Miles on that.

It's about COVID, which we, you know, recently, around half a year ago now, we're we're, we're in the five year anniversary of various milestones.

And I remember the Rosh Hashanah of COVID and the Yom Kippur of COVID and the circus of COVID obviously brings back a lot of, of mixed memories.

So tell us a little about the book, why you decided to write it, and what the what the goal was in in putting this together.

OK, great.

Thank you.

So first of all, I'll take I'll take issue on one hand, it is definitely a book a safer about COVID.

You can't escape that.

But I like to tell people it's not a COVID book.

What it is is is a safer that describes how we as a community struggled and overcame with adversity.

It happens to be that the adversity of the topic was Kovid.

But the lessons and those interactions, I think, apply in all sorts of different situations going forward.

Which is why although I fought with the editor, I won.

At least I think I won.

And the title is speaking to an empty shul, timeless lessons from unprecedented times.

So on one hand, we thought that was going on in COVID was unprecedented.

But at the same time, the lessons and the takeaways from those experiences, I think really are timeless and can help a person going count.

The book is a combination, I'd say history book and a safer.

So if you're into history, I think it'll be very interesting because what it really does is it tracks right from the week before the shutdown.

That's the first Russia in the book.

And then after that, after the shutdown, what started happening was that I, the community really had no way to interact.

So I started sending out voice notes and emails before Shabbos and saying to people, listen, you know, usually we have the draw show when you're in Shabbos.

Here's the draw show, print it out and you can read it or Chavez, you know, if you really want to be, you know, mock, but you can read it before most of when you're dominating in your apartment.

And I have for those first three or four months, I had all of these rushes that I was sending out.

And what I did is so before, in the book before each Russia, there's like four or five sentences of a historical blurb is kind of like this is what was going on.

You know, we just shut down or you mentioned before Shoshanna, you know, before Shibuyas, we were about to open up or like the the Drusha on the week that we first started outdoor mignon.

But the drush on the week where we, you know, you don't care what we had outside.

So there's always a blurb as to what was going on historically.

And many more thing.

It was actually a crazy year.

I mean, COVID was crazy, but it was a crazy year.

Like January 6th, you had George Floyd, you had the Supreme Court, a nomination.

You know, there was so much stuff going on and people forget and people so many times people stopped me and said, oh, I saw you, I saw your safer, I saw your book.

I didn't remember that that had happened.

I didn't remember that we were actually shut down for that long, etcetera.

So that's what the safer does.

It kind of tracks 1 full year from the week before the shutdown till the one year anniversary of the shutdown.

And you'll see kind of you get the feeling the first few weeks you really get the feet.

You kind of the goal is to kind of put you back into that, into that place.

And then as we open up the, the dresses open up and kind of it addresses a whole bunch of a whole slew of different issues.

But that's, that's the goal and the objective of the safer.

And so if you like history could be good for you.

If you like, if you just need a dresser for a bar mitzvah, we could also be good because there's lots of, lots of dresses in there.

But that that's kind of the overview of the safer.

Yeah, So we will post a link in the show notes.

And it sounds very interesting.

And the way you framed it is also very important.

It's, you know, lessons about adversity, lessons about community, lessons about change and, and, and adapting.

So I'm wondering, you know, you also have been a rabbi through the last two years of October 7th and the aftermath.

So what were the main sort of things that you learned during COVID that helped you as a leader and a rabbi navigate this other very adverse times with its own differences, its own challenges.

But you know, especially with your framing, the the goal was to to learn those lessons that can be applied in future crises, crises.

So you definitely got a chance to do that again.

So wondering what were some of the main lessons that you applied?

I think one important lesson that I gleaned out of the COVID experience, especially kind of in the rub on us, is that so many people, you think there's going to be a standard response to a certain type of adversity.

And what we saw in COVID was that people reacted diametrically opposed to the exact same stimuli.

Some people were, you know, that kind of mentally dealt with COVID by saying, I'm going to take control of the situation and I'm going to wipe down everything.

And other people said, you know, after we can never control this, we can never save this.

And therefore I'm not going to do anything.

It's like you saw how people really responded differently to the exact same stimuli.

And as a rub and as a community, the the key to keeping our community together is to make space for different people to react to different to these different situations differently and still within the framework of a community.

And if that means each person being sensitive to how the other person is going to react and somehow changing their behavior, etcetera.

You know, you'll see in a bunch of the different dresses, especially at the most severe times when people were really stressed and there was not a lot of information and you saw people reacting very differently from a communal perspective.

There was tension around those issues.

And we addressed that in the safer and I think October 7th had a lot of that as well.

Obviously it was a, it was a extremely traumatic event.

It was a physically traumatic event in Israel, but it was emotionally traumatic event and includes Lawrence.

And because of social media and people and the social media aspect of the war, people really, really do you have people who had very similar PTSD type responses in the United States who were not there, but who had were so involved and had family there, etcetera.

And to see different people reacting and different people wanting to take action or not take action.

And then in the United States, there was a lot of issues of anti-Semitism.

All of a sudden, like you had all these protests and people who who had been wearing their yarmulkes to work forever.

We're thinking about taking their yarmulkes off.

Should we protest publicly?

Should we not protest publicly?

All those types of issues, which was so on one hand it was it was great to see the community coalesce about the fact that something needed to be done.

But it was obvious very soon that different people had felt very, very strongly as to what the different things should be done.

And even just take something in terms of we were all giving money.

Who should be giving money to?

How do you prioritize the different stuff that she'd be giving it to the soldiers should be giving it to the widow, she'd be giving it to the country.

She'd be giving like, and these are all there were great debates to have because it meant that everyone in the community wanted to do something.

But people felt very strongly that there were different best ways forward and as a community, as a community of I think one of the challenges was to bring people together and to get them to acknowledge that different people had valid opinions and that it was important as a community that we act together and figure out what the best way forward is.

That was kind of just off the top of my head.

That's kind of like one example of that, of a timeless lesson, which unfortunately got applied very quickly.

A second thing also is kind of like the tension between the individual and the community.

We mentioned that we were just five years out, if anyone's very interested in the five year passage.

So with by doctor Jeffrey Sachs was the editor of tradition.

We put together an online panel of six or seven Jewish professionals who were reacting to what what happened, how you view COVID five years later.

There were some pulpit rabbis, there were some educators, there were some mental health professionals in that suppose even if you're interested, you could just check it out on tradition online.

But one of the people there is a woman by the name of Gila Muskan, who's the executive director of of the HT Kabat, which is an organization that deals with infertility.

And in both COVID and October 7th, you had this parallel where there was this huge communal disruption and there was mass issues.

And then at the same time, you had individuals who were dealing with a very important but totally personal issue in terms of their building their own family lives.

So in the midst of COVID, all infertility treatment stopped.

So here you had somebody who was saying, look, the world's coming to an end.

Am I supposed to be upset about the fact that my fertility struggle is part of that?

Like, how can you compare that?

There are millions of people dying, but at the same time you have an individual who's truly struggling with that issue.

It's still a live issue for them.

It's just an individual issue.

And you had that exact same thing on October 7th where you had people were like, you have all sorts of people who have individual issues and they're like, how can I even talk about my issue because of the because Omni Swell is going through this.

And the answer to that is there is room for both, There has to be space for both and you have to learn how to manage, manage both of those.

So I think that was also another another lesson that we that we kind of were able to take forward and we saw from.

That is fascinating.

Last question before I go to our lightning round, I'm wondering for you personally, October 7th, how is it change you change your approach?

You also told me that your son is now serving in the Army, which is very exciting and very important.

So how's that experience been for you?

Being a a father of a Hayal Hailbo dead from a distance?

Even harder in a certain sense.

So I wonder if you could just reflect personally on your journey over the last two years?

Well, this is this is Shark Tank Shark Tank.

So I will I will take that question and revert, bring it back to the law firm.

October 7th had a unintended consequence, which is that many very unaffiliated Jews all of a sudden became affiliated again.

And there was great opportunity in the law firm and in any secular setting to allow.

Unaffiliated Jews or minimally affiliated Jews to come back and connect in whatever way they wanted to connect.

So we have a Jewish affinity group in the law firm.

Law firms have these affinity groups.

They're like for all sorts of different things that we have a Jewish affinity group, The Jewish affinity group and the minical group used to be the same, or the Jewish affinity group and the kosher group used to be identical.

After October 7th, the Jewish affinity group became huge because there were so many Jews who wanted to somehow reach out and be part of it.

And there's great opportunity for kiruv and not even for kiruv, but just kind of opening up and allowing other non religious Jews to see what it is to be a religious Jew.

And I think that immediately after October 7th it was palpable.

Obviously, I thank God as the ceasefire now and as kind of things are, I think that will it will go away a little, but to not let that opportunity slip by.

And if there are people out there who have the opportunity to interact with secular Jews or less affiliated Jews who have expressed an interest, don't let that don't let that slip away.

I think that I think that's something that the Jewish identity which has come out of October 7th, which was a result of the anti-Semitism and you can have all those rushes about how you know, then it's civil, why anti-Semitism, etcetera.

So I think that that's that's one very palpable and powerful reaction that we can take with us in the secular workforce out of October 7th.

OK, let's go to our lightning.

Our lightning round rapid fire.

3 short questions, three hopefully short answers.

We're all the clock change, but we still have a little bit of time left in Chavez afternoons.

So what's your favorite use of the time on Chavez afternoons when it's not super short?

Yeah.

Oh, you saying not, not, not Air Chavez afternoon.

Chavez afternoon is when I is when I read, I would say kind of pleasure reading, which in for me is kind of Jewish history or history of halacha or those types of those types of sperm that you know.

So that's usually a good period of time where you can carve out like an hour or two.

It's relatively quiet depending on what's going on with the kids or what happened that child is etcetera.

And you can kind of get that kind of reading done, which I don't usually get a chance to do during the week.

And I also especially will do sometimes reads forum in, in not sperm, but academic books in Hebrew, which requires much more concentration.

I can't usually do that quickly.

So on a Shabbos afternoon when it's quiet, I could sit down and kind of do that type of that type of learning slash reading.

That's what I I really enjoy on Shabbos.

Theft.

And when you're preparing a share, preparing A drusha parsa savoir other topics that you are teaching about, speaking about what's your go to safer to get inspiration, to get ideas to get their action.

So my family has a little bit of an affinity to rub Diskin because my grandfather was at the Diskin orphanage and rub Diskin has a few different sperm on parsha.

So usually as a car Satov to rub Diskin for for helping my grandfather so many years ago.

I usually will try to go there first and pull something off the shelf and see if he if he has something, something relevant.

If not after that, after that, you know, it's not withstanding the emotional connection.

I'm not able to find what I'm looking for.

Then I'm a big Tortue fan.

I think there's a lot of a lot of Nuggets there that you can usually the whole, it can't be a Tars Mima piece, but the Tars mima can bring you to something else that can eventually get you a tarshi.

The tars mima Tarsh Lima.

That's like, that's what we go to.

OK, we'll remind our listeners about a very fascinating episode that we did about the Tars Mima.

We can link to that in the show as well.

But thank you for that.

Those are all very interesting, Storm.

And finally, if you had to choose a new job in a new industry, something you've never done before, maybe something you dream of doing as a kid, what would that be?

OK, so I don't know if this is allowed, but just to go back to the Tars Mima for a moment.

I also have an affinity to the Torres move because my other grandfather on my mother's side wrote an index to the Torres Mima, which my mother edited.

So I, I need to give a shout out to to that as well.

So it's actually you look at the index that you like to the Torres Mima.

So I don't know if you could splice that back in.

But that's, you know, I do want to be on record there for both both sides of the both sides of the family are disc in the Torres Mima.

In terms of if I had to, if I wanted to do a different profession, I always say I would like to be an architect.

There is something very appealing to be able to design something and then see it concrete and built.

I think both as a rabbi and a lawyer, we very much deal in the abstract.

So I don't know if I would actually enjoy it, but it seems like it would just be great.

It's like build something and have it like be there with, with rocks and steel and and, you know, screws and bolts.

So I may be an architect.

Good to help her.

Thank you so much for joining us.

And I really appreciate learning from you from all your experiences as a rabbi and as a lawyer, and we really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for the time, this has been fascinating, very much enjoyable.