1 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,519 [MUSIC] 2 01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:08,800 He's taught generations of photographers, 3 01:00:09,239 --> 01:00:11,119 published over 40 books, and 4 01:00:11,199 --> 01:00:12,119 still says the best 5 01:00:12,119 --> 01:00:13,960 advice is shoot what you love. 6 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:15,760 Welcome to this episode 7 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:16,679 of All of Your Stories. 8 01:00:17,079 --> 01:00:19,719 I'm your host, Hava Gurvic, and today I'm 9 01:00:19,719 --> 01:00:20,800 joined by my good friend, 10 01:00:21,039 --> 01:00:24,119 the legendary photographer, author, and 11 01:00:24,119 --> 01:00:26,000 educator, Henry Hornstein. 12 01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:28,840 For five decades, Henry has documented 13 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,960 the world with wit, honesty, and 14 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:31,920 deep curiosity. 15 01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,960 A self-described historian with a camera, 16 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:36,880 his work captures the soul of 17 01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:37,960 disappearing cultures, 18 01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:39,760 eccentric characters, and 19 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:41,960 the quiet poetry of everyday life. 20 01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,440 In our conversation, Henry reflects on 21 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:47,119 his early calling to photography, 22 01:00:47,599 --> 01:00:49,679 what it was like to study with giants 23 01:00:49,679 --> 01:00:52,360 like Minor White, Harry Callahan, and 24 01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,360 Aaron Siskind, and how the 70s became a 25 01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:56,639 turning point for photography, 26 01:00:57,039 --> 01:00:59,400 as both an art form and a career path. 27 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,360 He shares stories behind his newest book, 28 01:01:03,039 --> 01:01:04,119 Miles and Miles of Texas, 29 01:01:04,599 --> 01:01:08,000 which is out now, why he's turned to 30 01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:09,280 self-publishing, and 31 01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:09,920 offers his 32 01:01:09,920 --> 01:01:11,679 down-to-earth definition of success, 33 01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:13,039 doing what you love 34 01:01:13,039 --> 01:01:14,280 for as long as you can. 35 01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:16,719 Welcome to the podcast, Henry. 36 01:01:17,519 --> 01:01:19,480 Now, quick word from our sponsor, and 37 01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:21,119 then we'll get right back to the show. 38 01:01:21,239 --> 01:01:23,079 When I started selling my art, I had 39 01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:25,360 absolutely no idea how to actually turn 40 01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:26,920 it into a business, a 41 01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,039 professional business. 42 01:01:28,719 --> 01:01:31,159 And then I came across art storefronts, 43 01:01:31,159 --> 01:01:32,920 and that was a game changer. 44 01:01:33,199 --> 01:01:36,119 I've been a customer now for years, and 45 01:01:36,119 --> 01:01:38,280 they've been instrumental every step of 46 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,079 the way of helping me succeed. 47 01:01:40,599 --> 01:01:42,000 I have a gorgeous, 48 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:43,760 powerful commerce website. 49 01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,599 I have marketing tools and a membership 50 01:01:47,599 --> 01:01:50,800 to a community that is very supportive, 51 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:53,559 and teaches me how to 52 01:01:53,559 --> 01:01:54,880 succeed as an artist. 53 01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:58,239 Check them out, artstorefronts.com, and 54 01:01:58,239 --> 01:01:59,280 tell them how I sent you. 55 01:01:59,920 --> 01:02:02,840 Henry, welcome to the podcast. 56 01:02:04,239 --> 01:02:04,440 And- 57 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:06,360 Just see you, Abba. 58 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:07,599 It's been a long time 59 01:02:07,599 --> 01:02:10,960 since I've seen you, but yeah. 60 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:11,920 Yeah, yeah. 61 01:02:12,119 --> 01:02:15,000 I think the last time we saw each other 62 01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,239 in person was in Manhattan, 63 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,480 when you came into the city for that 64 01:02:19,480 --> 01:02:22,880 documentary demo that we did. 65 01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,320 You remember that? 66 01:02:25,239 --> 01:02:25,719 And I was- 67 01:02:25,719 --> 01:02:27,079 I've been, you know, yeah. 68 01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:30,119 And I was interviewing you and trying to 69 01:02:30,119 --> 01:02:32,519 get you, trying very hard to get you to 70 01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:34,360 say that you do portraiture, which you 71 01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:38,199 just absolutely would not have it. 72 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,320 I wouldn't have it, sorry about that. 73 01:02:40,679 --> 01:02:41,679 No, that was great. 74 01:02:41,679 --> 01:02:42,440 It was really great. 75 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,239 Anyway, Henry, you've been an educator 76 01:02:47,239 --> 01:02:49,119 for a big part of 77 01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:52,000 your life and an author. 78 01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:56,039 So why don't you just tell us a little 79 01:02:56,039 --> 01:03:01,480 bit about your journey, like 80 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,239 who you are, what you've done? 81 01:03:05,079 --> 01:03:07,079 Well, it's been a long 82 01:03:07,079 --> 01:03:10,199 journey, but it's been a great one. 83 01:03:10,679 --> 01:03:11,599 I got to say that. 84 01:03:12,519 --> 01:03:14,199 Not every moment was great. 85 01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:16,880 There are always, for all of us, 86 01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:18,760 difficult times, but 87 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,159 overall, I'd say pretty good. 88 01:03:22,079 --> 01:03:24,639 I grew up in New Bedford, Massachusetts, 89 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,360 which is probably 90 01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:29,000 best known for Moby Dick. 91 01:03:29,719 --> 01:03:32,400 It's where Herman Melville started Moby 92 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:33,880 Dick, and it's the longest 93 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,199 story than that, of course. 94 01:03:35,239 --> 01:03:39,639 But I moved to Chicago to go to college, 95 01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:44,000 got thrown out of college my senior year. 96 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:46,119 You knew that, didn't you? 97 01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:47,159 I did not know that. 98 01:03:47,159 --> 01:03:50,280 It's a little about me that you don't 99 01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:53,599 know, but that's one thing, I guess. 100 01:03:55,239 --> 01:03:56,159 But I was getting into 101 01:03:56,159 --> 01:03:57,400 photography at the time. 102 01:03:57,800 --> 01:03:59,679 I was studying history and kind of 103 01:03:59,679 --> 01:04:00,559 getting bored with it. 104 01:04:01,119 --> 01:04:04,920 And so I went to Rhode Island School of 105 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,199 Design, which is where I teach now. 106 01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,800 And I got two degrees there and started 107 01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:16,000 my journey, trying to be a photographer. 108 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,800 But in those days, it was the 70s, and 109 01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:23,519 people, it's so different than it is now. 110 01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:28,400 The idea that you could be a photographer 111 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,960 on your own, kind of a freelance, 112 01:04:31,559 --> 01:04:35,960 and have one foot in photojournalism, one 113 01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:37,880 foot in fine art, whatever that is, 114 01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:41,000 one foot in documentary, and somehow make 115 01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,159 a living or let it... 116 01:04:43,199 --> 01:04:44,840 It's hard now, God knows. 117 01:04:45,239 --> 01:04:50,000 But then it was just like, we didn't 118 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,199 really know what that 119 01:04:51,199 --> 01:04:52,559 career could even look like, 120 01:04:52,599 --> 01:04:54,719 even if it was successful, because there 121 01:04:54,719 --> 01:05:00,599 were so few mentors, so few people for us 122 01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:01,880 who led the way. 123 01:05:02,159 --> 01:05:05,280 And for me, I was really lucky because I 124 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:07,840 met up with, well, at 125 01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:09,239 least three, maybe four of 126 01:05:09,239 --> 01:05:11,320 those people who had led the way. 127 01:05:11,679 --> 01:05:14,960 My two teachers at RISD, Harry Callahan 128 01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,599 and Aaron Siskin, soon 129 01:05:18,599 --> 01:05:20,199 after I met Ansel Adams. 130 01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,239 And my first teacher was Minor White. 131 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:30,119 So all of these people were people who 132 01:05:30,119 --> 01:05:32,599 set up the idea that you 133 01:05:32,599 --> 01:05:36,800 could be an artist as a 134 01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:37,280 photographer. 135 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,039 And when I say artist, I don't mean it is 136 01:05:40,039 --> 01:05:43,239 pejorative or positive or anything, just 137 01:05:43,239 --> 01:05:44,719 that's your career. 138 01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:46,440 They're a good artist 139 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:47,519 and bad artist, God knows. 140 01:05:48,159 --> 01:05:51,840 But you could just do that and maybe 141 01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:52,960 teach to make a 142 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:55,559 living, as all of them did. 143 01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,679 And so I didn't know that at the time, 144 01:06:00,039 --> 01:06:01,000 that that's what I was 145 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:02,280 doing, but I was really 146 01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:06,239 following in those footsteps as a lot of 147 01:06:06,239 --> 01:06:07,559 people in the 70s were. 148 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:10,960 And I started teaching in 1970. 149 01:06:11,239 --> 01:06:12,519 I was 23 years old. 150 01:06:13,239 --> 01:06:14,320 I didn't have a degree. 151 01:06:15,239 --> 01:06:17,280 And how did I get a teaching job then? 152 01:06:17,519 --> 01:06:18,559 Well, today would be impossible. 153 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:20,760 But in those days, there just weren't 154 01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:21,679 that many people 155 01:06:21,679 --> 01:06:24,719 interested in teaching or able 156 01:06:24,719 --> 01:06:25,280 to teach. 157 01:06:25,519 --> 01:06:26,239 And I don't know if I was 158 01:06:26,239 --> 01:06:27,559 able to, but I was interested. 159 01:06:28,519 --> 01:06:31,280 And suddenly there was a great deal, a 160 01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,519 swell of interest from people to have 161 01:06:33,519 --> 01:06:34,519 photographer classes. 162 01:06:35,159 --> 01:06:37,239 And universities and colleges did not 163 01:06:37,239 --> 01:06:38,840 have many classes, very 164 01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:40,840 few did in those days. 165 01:06:41,239 --> 01:06:42,639 That happened very soon after. 166 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:48,400 But 1970, and I taught for, you know, 167 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:49,599 there were little ship 168 01:06:49,599 --> 01:06:51,239 places, basically, little 169 01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:54,000 storefront art spaces. 170 01:06:55,639 --> 01:06:57,679 And then I went to school and then I got 171 01:06:57,679 --> 01:06:58,840 some adjunct jobs 172 01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,079 teaching and I did freelance 173 01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:02,960 work and I wrote a couple of textbooks 174 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:06,280 and I painted houses, you 175 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:07,039 know, and I moved people 176 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,280 and I, you know, went to hear music, 177 01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:12,400 drank a lot of beer 178 01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,320 and been on the horses. 179 01:07:15,719 --> 01:07:16,719 I like horse racing. 180 01:07:18,599 --> 01:07:21,440 And so I actually like gambling, I guess 181 01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:22,719 I should say, but I 182 01:07:22,719 --> 01:07:23,800 like gambling on horses. 183 01:07:24,079 --> 01:07:25,840 But anyway, so that's 184 01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:27,320 what I did through my 70s. 185 01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:28,039 I had, you know, 186 01:07:28,239 --> 01:07:29,719 adventures and, you know, fun. 187 01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:34,559 And I was not making much money, but my 188 01:07:34,559 --> 01:07:35,920 rent was $40 a month. 189 01:07:36,519 --> 01:07:38,960 And I had a 10 year old Ford Fairlane and 190 01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,519 my dog was my biggest expense other than 191 01:07:44,519 --> 01:07:48,400 photographer. And she was, she ate a lot, 192 01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,679 you know, but so that was that. 193 01:07:51,239 --> 01:07:54,519 And then the whole time I wanted to 194 01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:57,159 basically make books, that 195 01:07:57,159 --> 01:08:00,000 was my, you know, my goal. 196 01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:03,840 And it's, I want to 197 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,000 make books of my work. 198 01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:07,320 And the problem was I 199 01:08:07,320 --> 01:08:08,679 didn't really have any work. 200 01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:11,239 It's certainly not that was book worthy. 201 01:08:11,519 --> 01:08:16,039 And so I made these books, instructional 202 01:08:16,039 --> 01:08:17,119 books on photography, 203 01:08:17,119 --> 01:08:19,039 which were very successful. 204 01:08:19,359 --> 01:08:21,359 Still even sell a little bit. 205 01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,000 But at one time that was, that was my 206 01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,720 income royalties from the books. 207 01:08:28,279 --> 01:08:30,000 And then occasionally this and that. 208 01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:32,560 And then I had to spend some money to buy 209 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:35,039 a camera or film or whatever I had to do. 210 01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:38,960 And that went on for a long time. 211 01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:43,000 And then about 1979, actually exactly 212 01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,840 1979, I was offered a job at 213 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:48,600 Polaroid to work at Polaroid. 214 01:08:49,159 --> 01:08:50,439 You didn't know this part of me. 215 01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:52,399 You get big out for it. 216 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,079 This is so fascinating. 217 01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:56,880 I'm sure there's a lot about you. 218 01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:57,600 I don't know too. 219 01:08:58,479 --> 01:08:59,000 That's right. 220 01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:00,600 I worked for, I had a job. 221 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,880 It was my only, I'd say 222 01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:05,319 normal job that I ever had. 223 01:09:05,319 --> 01:09:07,720 My teaching wasn't the same. 224 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:08,359 I mean, I have taught 225 01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:09,840 a lot in their jobs. 226 01:09:10,039 --> 01:09:10,399 Like Amy. 227 01:09:11,119 --> 01:09:12,199 What did you do for Polaroid? 228 01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:13,880 Ah, well, that's a good question. 229 01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:15,399 Because in those days 230 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:16,399 they had a lot of money. 231 01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,319 They were really writing it. 232 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:20,680 And so I could almost 233 01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:21,960 do what I wanted to do. 234 01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:23,800 I mean, weirdly, I 235 01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:24,840 worked in communications, 236 01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:27,319 PR, that kind of thing. 237 01:09:28,039 --> 01:09:30,399 And a lot of people know that you see 238 01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:31,279 Polaroid, you see that. 239 01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,399 Make a picture of the film comes out of 240 01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:34,800 the camera and you 241 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:36,000 get a print or an image. 242 01:09:37,159 --> 01:09:39,640 But they had, at that time, 5% of their 243 01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,199 business was actually business, 244 01:09:42,199 --> 01:09:44,720 industrial, professional 245 01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:47,000 applications. 246 01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:49,399 Like medical 247 01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:53,760 applications, IDs for license plates. 248 01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:55,960 But also studio 249 01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,640 photographers use Polaroids as proof. 250 01:09:59,279 --> 01:10:00,000 Before you made your 251 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,319 picture, you took the Polaroid. 252 01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:03,800 That's what you used to say. 253 01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:05,600 Let's do a Polaroid of that. 254 01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:10,079 So they needed someone on staff in PR 255 01:10:10,079 --> 01:10:13,399 communications who was a photographer. 256 01:10:15,159 --> 01:10:16,640 And that was me. 257 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:18,600 So I wrote press releases. 258 01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:19,279 I did shows. 259 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:20,439 I edited a magazine. 260 01:10:21,319 --> 01:10:24,840 I assisted Elliot Erwitt, Gary Winogrand, 261 01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:25,520 some of the great 262 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:27,159 photographers of the era. 263 01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:28,640 Ansel Adams, that's 264 01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:29,640 how I met Ansel Adams. 265 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:31,399 It's just their 266 01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:33,159 assistance for a Polaroid thing. 267 01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:35,880 Because they all wanted to work for 268 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:37,319 Polaroid because there's good money. 269 01:10:38,159 --> 01:10:40,399 Where galleries barely existed. 270 01:10:41,239 --> 01:10:42,319 There was no money there. 271 01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:43,960 So the money was in 272 01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:46,760 teaching and commercial work. 273 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:48,159 And Polaroid was commercial. 274 01:10:48,199 --> 01:10:53,159 So I did that for two years as a job. 275 01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:54,760 And freelance there for 276 01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:56,760 probably the rest of the 80s. 277 01:10:57,199 --> 01:10:58,720 People I knew who were doing that were 278 01:10:58,720 --> 01:10:59,680 starting communication 279 01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,439 companies and PR companies and this 280 01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:02,880 and that. 281 01:11:03,159 --> 01:11:04,319 I don't want to do that. 282 01:11:05,039 --> 01:11:08,039 So I just let the work dribble away. 283 01:11:09,399 --> 01:11:11,760 And I got a job at RISD, Rhode Island 284 01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:12,520 School of Design, for 285 01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:13,399 those who don't know. 286 01:11:15,079 --> 01:11:16,239 Teaching photography 287 01:11:16,239 --> 01:11:17,600 where I started, really. 288 01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:18,439 As a photographer. 289 01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:20,279 And it was part-time for a 290 01:11:20,279 --> 01:11:21,399 while and then it was full-time. 291 01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,720 And now it's full-time. 292 01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:27,039 But teaching jobs are not 293 01:11:27,039 --> 01:11:28,840 full-time jobs in the way. 294 01:11:29,319 --> 01:11:30,840 My partner works with kids. 295 01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,079 Preschool and early 296 01:11:35,079 --> 01:11:36,399 education and all that. 297 01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:39,840 She comes home and she is wasted. 298 01:11:42,279 --> 01:11:43,319 And I come home and I 299 01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:44,760 have a beer and I watch TV. 300 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:46,720 I don't actually do that. 301 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:52,600 But my work life is less strenuous. 302 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:55,399 I have this whole part of me where I do 303 01:11:55,399 --> 01:11:56,520 individual projects. 304 01:11:57,119 --> 01:11:58,720 I won't go through all of them. 305 01:11:59,159 --> 01:12:00,560 I'm an Infinigones interested. 306 01:12:01,199 --> 01:12:03,399 I've got a website obviously. 307 01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:05,840 So you can look that over. 308 01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:07,199 Or my Instagram. 309 01:12:07,439 --> 01:12:09,319 I do not have dogs and cats on my 310 01:12:09,319 --> 01:12:10,359 Instagram or babies. 311 01:12:11,279 --> 01:12:12,720 It's a professional work. 312 01:12:13,119 --> 01:12:17,279 So if you want to check that out. 313 01:12:17,720 --> 01:12:19,600 And anybody can email me, by the way. 314 01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,560 I like email, actually. 315 01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:23,920 I know it's old school, 316 01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:25,760 but you can attach things. 317 01:12:26,199 --> 01:12:27,640 And it's one place you can look. 318 01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:29,119 And it's just my name, 319 01:12:29,119 --> 01:12:30,520 Henry of Harnstein.com. 320 01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:32,159 So feel free to put it. 321 01:12:32,359 --> 01:12:33,279 Yeah, we will have all 322 01:12:33,279 --> 01:12:36,239 that info linked in summary, 323 01:12:36,239 --> 01:12:37,000 whatever it's called, 324 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:38,239 the notes for the show. 325 01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:39,760 Wow. 326 01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:40,520 So, okay. 327 01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:45,760 So I thought I had some questions to ask. 328 01:12:46,359 --> 01:12:50,720 But before I do, I guess maybe I knew. 329 01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,840 But hearing this again all at once, it 330 01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,960 just occurred to me that you... 331 01:13:01,399 --> 01:13:03,920 Your mentors were the 332 01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:05,960 giants of photography. 333 01:13:07,119 --> 01:13:08,000 Where photography 334 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,600 really came into its own. 335 01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:14,000 And then in the 70s, as far as... 336 01:13:14,279 --> 01:13:15,399 That's my understanding. 337 01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:18,479 Before then, photography really wasn't 338 01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,199 accepted into the art world. 339 01:13:21,439 --> 01:13:21,760 It wasn't... 340 01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:22,840 No. 341 01:13:23,319 --> 01:13:23,399 No. 342 01:13:23,399 --> 01:13:24,720 There are some places. 343 01:13:25,039 --> 01:13:25,279 Yeah. 344 01:13:26,319 --> 01:13:32,119 So not only did you study with and work 345 01:13:32,119 --> 01:13:34,720 with giants of photography, 346 01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:38,159 you also lived through that transition 347 01:13:38,159 --> 01:13:40,399 where photography came into its own. 348 01:13:40,399 --> 01:13:42,760 And suddenly there were photo galleries 349 01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,560 and photography started to be 350 01:13:47,039 --> 01:13:51,560 purchased and elevated as an art form. 351 01:13:53,079 --> 01:13:53,399 Yeah. 352 01:13:54,239 --> 01:13:58,000 And through all of that, you had a 353 01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,520 connection with Polaroid, 354 01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,159 which was just pivotal in all of that. 355 01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:04,840 And Risty, which continues 356 01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:06,439 to be pivotal in all of that. 357 01:14:08,079 --> 01:14:09,479 So you're like a living legend. 358 01:14:12,119 --> 01:14:13,720 No, I'm living so far. 359 01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:16,159 Anyway, but I actually wrote a book, 360 01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,279 which I think it's so like eight copies, 361 01:14:20,399 --> 01:14:21,439 which a memoir... 362 01:14:24,399 --> 01:14:26,000 It was about five years ago. 363 01:14:26,359 --> 01:14:27,680 It was called Shoot What You Love. 364 01:14:28,159 --> 01:14:28,880 I know that book. 365 01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:29,840 You sent me that book. 366 01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:30,000 I love it. 367 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:30,680 Sure, I sent it. 368 01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:31,159 Yeah. 369 01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,319 But it's a history of that time. 370 01:14:34,319 --> 01:14:35,880 It's exactly what you just described, 371 01:14:37,079 --> 01:14:38,279 because I was a history student. 372 01:14:38,279 --> 01:14:40,319 By the way, I still read history and 373 01:14:40,319 --> 01:14:45,000 history podcasts and the whole shebang. 374 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:53,039 And I speak to like in March, I'm 375 01:14:53,039 --> 01:14:59,600 speaking to the Texas Historical Society. 376 01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:01,760 I think that's what it's called, 377 01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:02,920 Association, whatever. 378 01:15:04,119 --> 01:15:05,119 I'm speaking to them. 379 01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:10,439 In Amsterdam, I spoke to the University 380 01:15:10,439 --> 01:15:12,319 of Amsterdam to an 381 01:15:12,319 --> 01:15:14,960 American studies program there. 382 01:15:15,359 --> 01:15:18,520 So I see myself as kind 383 01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:22,359 of a wanna-be historian. 384 01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:24,399 And my work is much 385 01:15:24,399 --> 01:15:26,119 about history and history. 386 01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:30,640 So, but obviously I really am not a 387 01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,319 historian and don't know what I'm talking 388 01:15:32,319 --> 01:15:33,159 about half the time. 389 01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:36,399 But I did live through that time. 390 01:15:36,399 --> 01:15:37,920 You described it really well. 391 01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:40,399 It changed a lot and 392 01:15:40,399 --> 01:15:41,840 it continues to change. 393 01:15:44,079 --> 01:15:45,560 And I can only guess at 394 01:15:45,560 --> 01:15:47,680 what the next stage might be. 395 01:15:48,399 --> 01:15:52,199 But photography came out of the Bauhaus, 396 01:15:52,199 --> 01:15:53,319 the school in Germany in 397 01:15:53,319 --> 01:15:55,199 the 20s and into the 30s. 398 01:15:55,239 --> 01:15:59,399 I think that was a school of design and 399 01:15:59,399 --> 01:16:01,880 photography creeped into the Bauhaus. 400 01:16:02,640 --> 01:16:04,079 I mean, a lot of people there, I think, 401 01:16:04,079 --> 01:16:06,000 didn't pay much attention. 402 01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:08,560 Inside is only a way to document their 403 01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,800 architecture, their 404 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:14,960 industrial design, their real art. 405 01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:18,960 But there were creative photographers who 406 01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:19,640 worked in the Bauhaus. 407 01:16:20,119 --> 01:16:23,319 They came to America fleeing the Nazis 408 01:16:23,319 --> 01:16:30,000 and they landed in Chicago in Boston, in 409 01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:32,880 Cambridge rather, at Harvard and all. 410 01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:35,880 And I think, Lesanne, I'm not a historian 411 01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:37,319 of this stuff, but I 412 01:16:37,319 --> 01:16:39,039 do know that the biggest 413 01:16:40,319 --> 01:16:44,640 Bauhaus intrusion was in Chicago where 414 01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:46,079 Tallahansists can talk. 415 01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,039 And that's where photography came in, I 416 01:16:49,039 --> 01:16:52,000 believe, to academia, 417 01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:53,600 to higher education, 418 01:16:54,359 --> 01:16:58,119 to being accepted at least by schools. 419 01:17:00,079 --> 01:17:02,640 Minor White taught photography at MIT, 420 01:17:03,119 --> 01:17:03,960 but he taught it in 421 01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:05,159 the architecture school. 422 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:09,600 MIT had a very distinguished, as you can 423 01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:10,960 imagine, architecture school. 424 01:17:11,479 --> 01:17:12,960 And he was a small part of that. 425 01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:15,920 But because the Bauhaus did it, I guess, 426 01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:17,680 I don't know how he ended 427 01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:19,520 up there, but I can imagine. 428 01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:24,800 And Callahan and Siskin, but keeping in 429 01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:26,039 mind that none of those 430 01:17:26,039 --> 01:17:27,399 people I mentioned had a 431 01:17:27,399 --> 01:17:29,399 degree in photography of any sort. 432 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:30,720 There was no degree in 433 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:32,000 photography at the time. 434 01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:32,439 No degrees. 435 01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:34,520 In fact, I don't think 436 01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:35,840 Callahan ever went to college. 437 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:41,680 I could be Ron Slarry, Howard Sirmly, if 438 01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:44,159 I've misspoke, but he 439 01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:45,520 was a factory worker. 440 01:17:46,319 --> 01:17:48,840 And it was discovered in Detroit by Ansel 441 01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:51,079 Adams, really, and brought 442 01:17:51,079 --> 01:17:53,199 to Museum of Modern Art and 443 01:17:53,199 --> 01:17:54,560 eventually to his job 444 01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:56,239 in Chicago and greatness. 445 01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:59,680 But today, of course, 446 01:17:59,920 --> 01:18:01,439 there are PhDs in photography. 447 01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:02,720 God knows what they're talking about. 448 01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:08,760 You know, Henry, what in all of that from 449 01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:09,680 the beginning, so you 450 01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,399 started school like when you 451 01:18:12,399 --> 01:18:14,840 were in college, you were in history, but 452 01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:16,039 you started doing photography. 453 01:18:16,399 --> 01:18:20,079 What got you interested in 454 01:18:20,079 --> 01:18:22,039 photography in the first place? 455 01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:25,600 Well, truthfully, or should I give? 456 01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:26,439 I know. 457 01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:31,560 Well, I was getting a little bored with 458 01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,560 my life in the libraries, 459 01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:35,880 which is what, you know, 460 01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:37,239 being a historian meant. 461 01:18:39,279 --> 01:18:40,960 Though I still like the subject, I didn't 462 01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:42,920 like the what we would 463 01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:44,439 call today lifestyle. 464 01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:48,920 And I liked getting out and working and 465 01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:50,279 having little adventures. 466 01:18:51,079 --> 01:18:53,439 And honestly, if you were photographer, 467 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:55,399 you're a lot cooler than if you were 468 01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:56,800 historian, which meant 469 01:18:56,800 --> 01:18:57,800 I got a lot more dates. 470 01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:01,039 You asked. 471 01:19:02,319 --> 01:19:05,199 Tell you why I'm laughing. 472 01:19:08,199 --> 01:19:13,560 When I started college, I was premed 473 01:19:13,560 --> 01:19:16,279 because that's, you know, 474 01:19:16,279 --> 01:19:17,560 I had to choose something 475 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:20,000 like real like my parents wouldn't let me 476 01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,520 just, you know, do what I wanted. 477 01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:27,079 But I took a figure drawing class and 478 01:19:27,079 --> 01:19:30,159 they were like large, 479 01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:32,039 you know, we drew on these 480 01:19:32,039 --> 01:19:33,399 large sheets of newsprint. 481 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:36,279 And so I had to get one of those large 482 01:19:36,279 --> 01:19:39,319 portfolios, those like zip black 483 01:19:39,319 --> 01:19:40,680 portfolios with a handle 484 01:19:40,720 --> 01:19:41,760 that was large, like 485 01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:44,760 24 by 36 size portfolio. 486 01:19:45,600 --> 01:19:47,760 And so I'd walk around campus with a 487 01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:51,239 portfolio and I loved 488 01:19:51,239 --> 01:19:53,399 carrying that portfolio around 489 01:19:53,399 --> 01:19:54,720 because that told 490 01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:56,800 everybody that I was an artist. 491 01:19:58,119 --> 01:20:01,159 And I would I'd have to say that my 492 01:20:01,159 --> 01:20:03,279 decision to apply to like to 493 01:20:03,279 --> 01:20:04,520 to switch to the art school 494 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:07,520 and become an artist had a lot to do with 495 01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,319 wanting to look like an artist. 496 01:20:11,119 --> 01:20:14,159 Understandably, I mean, I, you know, I 497 01:20:14,159 --> 01:20:16,359 couldn't wear a tweed sports coat. 498 01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:21,800 Was required dressed story of the day. 499 01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:25,279 But, you know, I mean, the thing is, this 500 01:20:25,279 --> 01:20:27,199 is this is my brain thinking about it. 501 01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:29,439 Now we look back and we come up with 502 01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:31,319 these like silly, silly, 503 01:20:31,319 --> 01:20:33,199 like true, but kind of like 504 01:20:33,199 --> 01:20:35,920 ridiculous reasons that that pushed us 505 01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:37,680 into the field that became our passion. 506 01:20:38,159 --> 01:20:43,800 But the reality is that maybe something 507 01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:45,159 else was pushing you 508 01:20:45,159 --> 01:20:46,800 there, but that something else 509 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:48,079 wasn't something that you could 510 01:20:48,079 --> 01:20:50,560 articulate even then to yourself. 511 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,680 Like your passion, like something that 512 01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:54,159 you're passionate 513 01:20:54,159 --> 01:20:56,840 about is going to pull you. 514 01:20:57,479 --> 01:21:00,159 But if you don't have the language to 515 01:21:00,159 --> 01:21:01,520 describe that it's pulling 516 01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:03,359 you, you are going to look at 517 01:21:03,399 --> 01:21:06,920 at the sort of the circumstances or like 518 01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:08,800 the side effects of that pool. 519 01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:13,159 So feeling like when when one says or 520 01:21:13,159 --> 01:21:14,279 like when I say like, I 521 01:21:14,279 --> 01:21:15,920 liked that when I walked 522 01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:17,920 through campus, people knew that I was an 523 01:21:17,920 --> 01:21:19,439 artist, or you're saying 524 01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:20,920 like it was cooler to be a 525 01:21:20,920 --> 01:21:22,840 photographer, you liked that image of 526 01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:24,279 yourself. What that was 527 01:21:24,279 --> 01:21:26,560 really saying on the deep down is 528 01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:30,920 that that felt authentic. That felt like 529 01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:34,279 your path. And to like an 530 01:21:34,279 --> 01:21:36,720 18 year old shit who was like 531 01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:40,079 concerned with outward appearances and 532 01:21:40,079 --> 01:21:41,720 how people see them, you 533 01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:44,520 know, that's what registered. 534 01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:47,119 But the reality is that, you know, you 535 01:21:47,119 --> 01:21:50,159 were that was always your 536 01:21:50,159 --> 01:21:52,079 passion and it was great that it 537 01:21:52,079 --> 01:21:55,600 felt good. Yeah, totally. And I think, 538 01:21:55,600 --> 01:21:58,159 you know, as an 18 year 539 01:21:58,159 --> 01:21:59,600 old or 20 year old, you know, 540 01:21:59,960 --> 01:22:02,279 you do tend to be maybe a little more 541 01:22:02,279 --> 01:22:05,279 idealistic before life 542 01:22:05,279 --> 01:22:08,119 really smacks you across the face. 543 01:22:09,119 --> 01:22:13,800 Gives you some reality checks. But, you 544 01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:14,840 know, so you're drawn to 545 01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:15,800 the things that you really 546 01:22:16,279 --> 01:22:19,319 care about, you know, a lot of people end 547 01:22:19,319 --> 01:22:20,159 up doing what they're 548 01:22:20,159 --> 01:22:21,680 doing, because they need 549 01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:23,560 and I did too, you know, because they 550 01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:24,720 needed a job or they 551 01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,680 needed this side. And, you know, 552 01:22:29,399 --> 01:22:31,760 what we do is what you do, what I do, 553 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:35,800 what artists do is a job 554 01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:37,720 and in its own way, you know, 555 01:22:38,039 --> 01:22:43,399 this idea of like work life balance is a 556 01:22:43,399 --> 01:22:44,119 real thing for 557 01:22:44,119 --> 01:22:46,640 everyone. And but as an artist, 558 01:22:47,399 --> 01:22:50,920 that for a long time in my life, I had 559 01:22:50,920 --> 01:22:53,159 like the career, like the 560 01:22:53,159 --> 01:22:55,960 day job. And then there was my 561 01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,079 life. And then there was also the art 562 01:22:58,079 --> 01:22:59,520 that I wanted to do and 563 01:22:59,520 --> 01:23:00,920 trying to balance all of them. 564 01:23:02,239 --> 01:23:04,520 And then when you become a full time 565 01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:06,600 artist, and suddenly have to like 566 01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:08,319 reconfigure and realize 567 01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:12,680 that like everything I do is my job. You 568 01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:13,399 know, like that 569 01:23:13,399 --> 01:23:17,960 separation becomes a bit hard to 570 01:23:17,960 --> 01:23:20,920 distinguish. I wanted to go back in time 571 01:23:20,920 --> 01:23:23,159 a little bit. So because this 572 01:23:23,159 --> 01:23:29,439 is this is so fun for me. So 573 01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:33,359 you and I met 20 years ago, I was living 574 01:23:33,359 --> 01:23:34,560 in Manhattan, and I was 575 01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:37,600 working at Tom Gittemann's 576 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:40,399 gallery. And you were an artist, you were 577 01:23:40,399 --> 01:23:40,960 friends, you're good 578 01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:43,680 friends with Tom. And I heard your 579 01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:45,479 name. And I thought, like, why does that 580 01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:47,039 name sound so familiar? 581 01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:49,680 Like, I've never met you, 582 01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:51,520 but I that the name sounded so familiar 583 01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:54,560 to me. And then I found out that, you 584 01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:55,600 know, you've written 585 01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,199 all these books. And I was like, Oh, 586 01:23:57,199 --> 01:23:59,279 shit, back when I was in 587 01:23:59,279 --> 01:24:01,920 college, and was taking photography, 588 01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:07,159 we had your book as our textbook for 589 01:24:07,159 --> 01:24:08,520 black and white photography. 590 01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:11,720 And that I just thought that 591 01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:13,840 was incredible. But that didn't end 592 01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:15,520 there. When I was in grad 593 01:24:15,520 --> 01:24:19,680 school, in the 90s, I was teaching 594 01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:23,279 photo 101. And that was the textbook that 595 01:24:23,279 --> 01:24:24,880 I had my students get. 596 01:24:26,159 --> 01:24:26,319 I owe you some royalties. 597 01:24:26,359 --> 01:24:34,560 You know, it's, it's just kind of 598 01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:37,560 amazing, then we meet and became friends. 599 01:24:38,039 --> 01:24:40,439 And, and we ended up 600 01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:43,800 working together like after I left Tom's 601 01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,439 gallery and started the art to art 602 01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:50,880 business. And you became 603 01:24:51,159 --> 01:24:54,680 artist that I represented. And I actually 604 01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:59,279 we toured three of your 605 01:24:59,279 --> 01:25:00,840 exhibitions, the animals 606 01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:04,079 on Emalia, and looking at animals, I 607 01:25:04,079 --> 01:25:05,520 think that's how we called it, right? 608 01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:06,920 Looking at animals. And 609 01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:09,840 then there was the honky tonk show. And 610 01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:15,560 on committee was just those two. Now I 611 01:25:15,560 --> 01:25:16,079 feel like there was a 612 01:25:16,079 --> 01:25:18,359 third but anyway, but those two I know 613 01:25:18,359 --> 01:25:20,920 traveled. And I know that like when the 614 01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:22,399 the animal show went 615 01:25:22,399 --> 01:25:28,159 to this art academy slash museum, I 616 01:25:28,159 --> 01:25:30,039 forgot what the venue was in 617 01:25:30,039 --> 01:25:33,640 Philadelphia. They actually 618 01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:36,920 invited me to give a talk, a curator talk 619 01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,000 about you, which was, 620 01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:41,520 which was really, really fun. 621 01:25:41,960 --> 01:25:44,520 And then in another chapter of my life, 622 01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:46,640 where I was working on a 623 01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:49,000 demo for a documentary film on 624 01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:54,359 portraiture, and we invited you to come 625 01:25:54,359 --> 01:25:55,800 to Manhattan to be 626 01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:59,079 interviewed for that. So like our 627 01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:04,039 past have crossed several times. And they 628 01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:07,920 continue and here we are again. So 629 01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:09,920 that's, that's really, 630 01:26:10,159 --> 01:26:12,600 really fun. And so and I have I have 631 01:26:12,600 --> 01:26:13,720 quite a few of your books. 632 01:26:16,199 --> 01:26:18,000 And you'll be getting getting a new one 633 01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:20,479 soon. Yeah. So I yes, 634 01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:22,000 okay. So that's something that 635 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:23,239 I definitely want to talk to you about 636 01:26:23,239 --> 01:26:24,319 you have a new book. How 637 01:26:24,319 --> 01:26:25,560 many books have you published? 638 01:26:26,279 --> 01:26:29,680 You know, it's funny because I a lot. 639 01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:33,800 I've done different kinds of books, you 640 01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:34,359 know, the textbooks, 641 01:26:35,119 --> 01:26:37,279 I even did some children's books. Did you 642 01:26:37,279 --> 01:26:41,279 really? Yeah, yeah. Only 643 01:26:41,279 --> 01:26:42,680 two I liked, but whatever. 644 01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,439 And I've done, you know, the monographs 645 01:26:47,439 --> 01:26:50,000 of what you really I'm in it for 646 01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:51,479 everyone's in it for 647 01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:55,399 photographs are your own work. And so 648 01:26:55,399 --> 01:26:58,720 I've gone through different gyrations 649 01:26:58,720 --> 01:26:59,920 with all of this and 650 01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:05,039 I have bodies of work. I could do another 651 01:27:05,039 --> 01:27:07,399 five books, six books with 652 01:27:07,399 --> 01:27:08,640 what I've got in the basement, 653 01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:13,279 my studio basement. But because I just 654 01:27:13,279 --> 01:27:16,399 would shoot subjects I was interested in. 655 01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:18,560 And one subject I've 656 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:20,159 been interested in for a long time is 657 01:27:20,159 --> 01:27:23,439 Texas. And for a lot of 658 01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:25,039 reasons. But the main reason, 659 01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:28,199 honestly, is music. I love Texas music. 660 01:27:29,000 --> 01:27:30,560 So that's what really got me involved. 661 01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:32,840 And I went down there 662 01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:35,439 several times for different things and 663 01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,800 photographed a bit as I usually do. And 664 01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:39,640 then I thought, well, 665 01:27:40,319 --> 01:27:45,000 COVID had come in 19, 19, 20, 20 or so. 666 01:27:45,399 --> 01:27:48,279 And I wanted a project I 667 01:27:48,279 --> 01:27:50,520 could do that's felt safe and 668 01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:53,479 contained. And while I photographed a lot 669 01:27:53,479 --> 01:27:54,840 in Texas, I didn't have 670 01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:57,640 an idea in mind. I just 671 01:27:57,640 --> 01:28:01,880 was shooting. So I started shooting with 672 01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:03,760 the intent of doing a book 673 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:06,800 on Texas. And I didn't have a 674 01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:09,399 controversial subject. You know, a lot of 675 01:28:09,399 --> 01:28:11,079 people have opinions about 676 01:28:11,079 --> 01:28:12,880 the politics and so forth and 677 01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,159 so on. I do too. But I decided not to 678 01:28:16,159 --> 01:28:17,000 make that a part of the 679 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:18,880 book. I'm really not a political 680 01:28:19,159 --> 01:28:22,119 scientist, expert in history or anything. 681 01:28:22,399 --> 01:28:23,439 I'm a photographer, you 682 01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:26,560 know, and a big time music 683 01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,319 lover of that kind of music. And I'd like 684 01:28:29,319 --> 01:28:31,039 to drink beer. It was 685 01:28:31,039 --> 01:28:32,720 barbecue, really barbecue. So, 686 01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:34,800 you know, I was there. So for about three 687 01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:36,199 years I went to Texas 688 01:28:36,199 --> 01:28:37,399 quite often and photographed 689 01:28:38,159 --> 01:28:40,640 and came out with this book. It's called 690 01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,319 Miles and Miles of Texas. And I 691 01:28:43,319 --> 01:28:44,640 self-published it for a 692 01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:47,840 number of reasons. Number one, I doubted 693 01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:48,960 that I could find a 694 01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:50,920 traditional publisher for it. 695 01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:53,760 It's not a big market kind of thing 696 01:28:53,760 --> 01:28:58,920 except maybe Texas maybe. And also, I 697 01:28:58,920 --> 01:29:00,680 don't mean this to sound 698 01:29:04,399 --> 01:29:07,439 horrible in any way, but I am old. So 699 01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:10,560 getting a book published through a 700 01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:11,640 traditional means takes 701 01:29:11,720 --> 01:29:14,119 a long time usually. By the time they 702 01:29:14,119 --> 01:29:15,399 turn you down eight times 703 01:29:15,399 --> 01:29:17,039 and you finally find someone. 704 01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:21,159 But even more important to me was I 705 01:29:21,159 --> 01:29:22,640 wanted the book to look 706 01:29:22,640 --> 01:29:24,359 like I wanted it to look. 707 01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,600 And the last two books I did, although 708 01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:30,039 I'm proud of them with publishers, I 709 01:29:30,039 --> 01:29:30,960 didn't like the way they 710 01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:32,680 were. I wouldn't have done it that way, I 711 01:29:32,680 --> 01:29:33,560 should say. They did it 712 01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:35,760 their way and it's good, but it 713 01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:40,399 wasn't my way. So I hired a designer, I 714 01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:42,520 know. Anyway, we went 715 01:29:42,520 --> 01:29:43,760 through quite a bit, raised some 716 01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:45,920 money, but it still ended up I wrote a 717 01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:49,000 big check just yesterday. And 718 01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:50,800 I'm headed on the road to try 719 01:29:50,800 --> 01:29:53,600 to sell some books and make that money 720 01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:56,960 back. So that's my plan. 721 01:29:58,119 --> 01:30:00,079 It's at the racetrack, the 722 01:30:00,079 --> 01:30:02,279 gamblers say, "I hope I pray to even I 723 01:30:02,279 --> 01:30:03,760 can use the money." And 724 01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:05,960 that's kind of the way artists, 725 01:30:06,399 --> 01:30:08,600 I think, whether they say it, but that 726 01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,520 you don't make money 727 01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:12,720 on what you do, you make 728 01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:20,880 heart, I guess. So there was a practical 729 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:21,640 sign, and I'm a 730 01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:23,079 practical person, even though 731 01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:25,159 I'm basically throwing away my money on 732 01:30:25,159 --> 01:30:26,920 these projects. But 733 01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:28,359 generally, I'm a practical person 734 01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:31,960 and I want to, but I know at a certain 735 01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:33,159 point I can't, I won't be 736 01:30:33,159 --> 01:30:34,079 able to do this anymore. 737 01:30:35,239 --> 01:30:39,680 Drive around, I'd go to different places, 738 01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:41,399 even the airport becomes a little 739 01:30:41,399 --> 01:30:42,520 difficult these days, 740 01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:46,279 especially. But I'm still doing it, and 741 01:30:46,279 --> 01:30:48,159 I'm going to do it as 742 01:30:48,159 --> 01:30:49,720 long as I can. So that's 743 01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:52,520 a big reason for wanting to self-publish. 744 01:30:52,520 --> 01:30:52,920 The problem with 745 01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:54,560 self-publishing, you have to find 746 01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,880 a place to put the books. You have to get 747 01:30:57,880 --> 01:30:58,880 them out there if anyone 748 01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:00,239 wants them, you have to get 749 01:31:00,239 --> 01:31:02,920 them to them. And all of that, I'm not 750 01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:04,159 really that good at any 751 01:31:04,159 --> 01:31:06,159 of that, but I'm trying. 752 01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:11,600 But what I've done is, because I do like 753 01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:13,520 music, I've kind of taken the model of 754 01:31:14,319 --> 01:31:16,159 trying to take the model of musicians 755 01:31:16,159 --> 01:31:20,520 these days, which is they don't have 756 01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:21,680 copyright protection the 757 01:31:21,720 --> 01:31:24,720 way they did, Spotify, etc., which is 758 01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:26,560 basically not paying them for 759 01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:29,840 their work. So what happens? 760 01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:31,520 You go out on the road, you tour more, 761 01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:34,520 and you try to get a little 762 01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:35,880 more money for your shows. 763 01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:42,039 But you know, you sell vinyl or 764 01:31:42,039 --> 01:31:44,079 merchandise, whatever it is. 765 01:31:45,319 --> 01:31:48,800 And you just take it on the 766 01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,239 road, and that's what I've decided to do 767 01:31:51,239 --> 01:31:53,000 with this. And I'm having 768 01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:55,560 a good time with it. It's 769 01:31:55,560 --> 01:31:59,159 a challenge, and I don't know how it's 770 01:31:59,159 --> 01:32:00,439 going to work out, but in 771 01:32:00,439 --> 01:32:01,800 fact, I think I even emailed. 772 01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:03,960 I emailed all my friends, and I said, 773 01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:05,479 "You know any place I can 774 01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:07,680 go in an arbor or whatever?" 775 01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:09,039 Come to an arbor. There 776 01:32:09,039 --> 01:32:10,279 are some good brickstores. 777 01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:11,600 Well, I actually think 778 01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:12,239 one's out to you, but... 779 01:32:12,279 --> 01:32:14,439 [laughter] 780 01:32:16,399 --> 01:32:18,159 But you have to take it yourself. You 781 01:32:18,159 --> 01:32:18,640 have to do it 782 01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:21,039 yourself. And it's a challenge, 783 01:32:21,039 --> 01:32:22,439 but it's also the 784 01:32:22,439 --> 01:32:24,079 ability to control what you do. 785 01:32:25,399 --> 01:32:27,720 I didn't expect to have a conversation 786 01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:28,399 about book 787 01:32:28,399 --> 01:32:29,960 publishing, but that's actually, 788 01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:32,399 you know, now it occurred to me. Like you 789 01:32:32,399 --> 01:32:33,600 are as much of an 790 01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:35,319 expert on publishing books, 791 01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:39,000 specifically monographs of your own work, 792 01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:41,159 you know, art books. 793 01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:44,960 You've done many of them, 794 01:32:45,279 --> 01:32:47,279 and that's the scientific number you've 795 01:32:47,279 --> 01:32:48,279 given me, many of 796 01:32:48,279 --> 01:32:51,359 them. And you've done them 797 01:32:51,359 --> 01:32:55,520 with publishers and now self-publishing. 798 01:32:56,159 --> 01:32:59,279 And I'm wondering if just 799 01:32:59,279 --> 01:33:00,720 for those who are listening, 800 01:33:00,720 --> 01:33:02,279 who are also artists and have been 801 01:33:02,279 --> 01:33:03,680 thinking about it, like, 802 01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:07,680 what advice would you give 803 01:33:08,720 --> 01:33:12,159 an artist that is dreaming about 804 01:33:12,159 --> 01:33:15,439 publishing a book, which, you know, I'm 805 01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:16,560 one of those artists. 806 01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:21,760 And it seems, I mean, it feels like 807 01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:23,600 self-publishing is the 808 01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:25,439 way to go. And you've just, 809 01:33:26,079 --> 01:33:30,840 you know, said some of those reasons. But 810 01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:34,359 also, are books to you, are 811 01:33:34,359 --> 01:33:35,720 they still relevant? Like the 812 01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:38,319 actual physical books? What place do they 813 01:33:38,319 --> 01:33:40,600 have? Like, can you talk about all that? 814 01:33:42,039 --> 01:33:44,199 Well, I mean, you're a visual artist, as 815 01:33:44,199 --> 01:33:49,199 am I. I do write. I'm not a real writer. 816 01:33:49,199 --> 01:33:52,039 Not a writer. 817 01:33:52,399 --> 01:33:54,319 But I do write because I like to, and I 818 01:33:54,319 --> 01:33:56,840 think what I do helps 819 01:33:56,840 --> 01:34:00,520 explain, is helped by the 820 01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:03,560 explanations and the captions and all of 821 01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:06,479 that. But yeah, I mean, my 822 01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:07,920 advice to all you artists 823 01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:09,960 out there, you know, if you want a book, 824 01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:13,279 don't do it. Well, how to 825 01:34:13,279 --> 01:34:15,199 work. No, it isn't my advice. 826 01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:18,359 You know, but music is the same thing. I 827 01:34:18,359 --> 01:34:21,079 mean, at time, you know, you were a 828 01:34:21,079 --> 01:34:21,880 musician, you were a 829 01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:23,600 band, you wanted to get signed to a 830 01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:25,880 label. That was what, you 831 01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:27,119 know, signed to a label. That's 832 01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:29,119 what everyone wants to do. There are 833 01:34:29,119 --> 01:34:30,640 labels out there, and some 834 01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:32,159 people still have that goal. 835 01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:34,600 It's part of what they do. But the 836 01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:36,319 reality is there are no 837 01:34:36,319 --> 01:34:40,239 labels out there. Very few. Same 838 01:34:40,279 --> 01:34:43,560 book publishing. Random House does not 839 01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:45,600 publish photo books, and 840 01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:46,960 they don't do it because they 841 01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:53,960 don't make money. And so that's a, you 842 01:34:53,960 --> 01:34:55,680 know, that's a challenge. 843 01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:58,520 But it's also a positive thing, 844 01:34:58,520 --> 01:35:02,640 because you then are able to put a lot of 845 01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:04,119 energy and a lot of 846 01:35:04,119 --> 01:35:08,399 control, take a lot of control over 847 01:35:08,399 --> 01:35:12,000 your project. Johnny Cash was being 848 01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:14,439 interviewed in this, what's it been, 849 01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:15,520 YouTube, which I wasted 850 01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:18,199 a lot of time on. So if you're on YouTube 851 01:35:18,199 --> 01:35:20,800 now, got a friend, but 852 01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:23,159 Johnny Cash is saying, 853 01:35:24,079 --> 01:35:27,199 they were talking about song swaps, that 854 01:35:27,199 --> 01:35:29,640 a lot of musicians write 855 01:35:29,640 --> 01:35:31,600 together, or they share 856 01:35:32,279 --> 01:35:34,000 and help each other. We don't do that 857 01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:35,119 enough as artists, I don't 858 01:35:35,119 --> 01:35:37,520 think, but, you know, there's 859 01:35:37,560 --> 01:35:39,439 a lot of co-writing and this kind of 860 01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,359 thing. He said one time 861 01:35:41,359 --> 01:35:45,560 early on in his living room, 862 01:35:46,119 --> 01:35:48,319 there was Bob Dylan, Chris 863 01:35:48,319 --> 01:35:53,640 Christofferson, Willie Nelson, Wayling 864 01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:55,399 Jen. There were like five or six 865 01:35:55,399 --> 01:35:57,840 people became huge stars and was starting 866 01:35:57,840 --> 01:35:59,680 to be stars at that time. 867 01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:03,560 And they played each other 868 01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:06,520 their newest songs to try to get some 869 01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:09,039 feedback or convince the 870 01:36:09,039 --> 01:36:10,840 other one to record it maybe or 871 01:36:11,079 --> 01:36:14,840 something. And incredible, you know, all 872 01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:15,960 these people are in one 873 01:36:15,960 --> 01:36:18,560 room and they're all in, you 874 01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:23,319 know, basically controlling their work. 875 01:36:23,319 --> 01:36:25,319 You know, controlling their 876 01:36:25,319 --> 01:36:26,520 work. They were the people who 877 01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:28,560 did it. Wayling Jennings nearly got 878 01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:29,840 kicked out of Nashville, kind 879 01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:31,760 of did for a while, because he 880 01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:35,199 insisted on his own producer. His early 881 01:36:35,199 --> 01:36:37,439 record sought. And when he 882 01:36:37,439 --> 01:36:40,359 got a chance, and he had, 883 01:36:40,560 --> 01:36:43,319 you know, A-list producers and, you know, 884 01:36:43,319 --> 01:36:44,079 they were good, but they 885 01:36:44,079 --> 01:36:46,600 weren't him. And I think if, 886 01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:49,079 you know, if there's a message I have 887 01:36:49,079 --> 01:36:51,680 for, you know, students, I 888 01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:53,199 try to make this a part of it 889 01:36:53,199 --> 01:36:57,960 without sounding too sanctimonious. But, 890 01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:01,359 you know, you can read, you 891 01:37:01,359 --> 01:37:03,640 can look at work, you can talk, 892 01:37:03,640 --> 01:37:06,600 and you can, you know, you can do that 893 01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:10,279 all day and that's fine. But it's the 894 01:37:10,279 --> 01:37:12,279 heart of it. You've got 895 01:37:12,279 --> 01:37:14,159 to be you, you know, it's the most 896 01:37:14,159 --> 01:37:17,159 obvious lesson in the world. But it's one 897 01:37:17,159 --> 01:37:18,239 that I think a lot of 898 01:37:18,279 --> 01:37:22,600 students have trouble. I had a lot of 899 01:37:22,600 --> 01:37:24,600 trouble, you know, for years. I didn't 900 01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:27,640 get that. But that's 901 01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:30,600 what you got that's different than what 902 01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:33,840 all the rest have. Now, you 903 01:37:33,840 --> 01:37:35,279 might bring you great fame 904 01:37:35,279 --> 01:37:37,880 and fortune or might get you, you know, 905 01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:39,359 get your buy and a half-time 906 01:37:39,359 --> 01:37:42,479 job in your art. But you can't 907 01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:45,399 worry about that. Right. You have to live 908 01:37:45,399 --> 01:37:47,920 your truth. Yeah, you can. 909 01:37:48,359 --> 01:37:49,640 I mean, if it comes great, 910 01:37:51,239 --> 01:37:54,399 if it doesn't come great, it's not 911 01:37:54,399 --> 01:37:56,960 following your own, you know, following 912 01:37:56,960 --> 01:37:58,359 your own. That's right. 913 01:37:59,199 --> 01:38:02,520 I think that leads very neatly into a 914 01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:04,000 question that I like to ask 915 01:38:04,000 --> 01:38:07,279 all my guests is how would 916 01:38:07,319 --> 01:38:12,159 you define success for yourself now and 917 01:38:12,159 --> 01:38:13,640 how has it changed over 918 01:38:13,640 --> 01:38:16,159 time? Yeah, it's a really good 919 01:38:16,159 --> 01:38:22,520 question. It has changed. And but also it 920 01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:23,600 depends a little on who you 921 01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:25,279 are. I had a back and forth, 922 01:38:25,279 --> 01:38:27,920 I won't mention names here, but and they 923 01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:28,680 said, you know, you're 924 01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:30,439 just trying to propagate your 925 01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:38,840 legacy. And I looked at this person and I 926 01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:40,279 said, you know, and I 927 01:38:40,279 --> 01:38:41,560 knew this person pretty well. 928 01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:47,159 We dated once. But anyway, and I said, 929 01:38:47,159 --> 01:38:49,920 you know, you grew up in Manhattan and 930 01:38:49,920 --> 01:38:51,279 all your friends and 931 01:38:51,319 --> 01:38:57,119 your friends family were doctors and 932 01:38:57,119 --> 01:38:59,640 lawyers and professors and 933 01:38:59,640 --> 01:39:02,840 politicians and, you know, and, 934 01:39:04,039 --> 01:39:05,279 you know, if they were a lawyer, they 935 01:39:05,279 --> 01:39:06,199 wanted to be on the Supreme 936 01:39:06,199 --> 01:39:08,039 Court. If they were a doctor, 937 01:39:08,039 --> 01:39:10,920 they wanted to invent a vaccine of some 938 01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:12,640 kind. Sorry, RFTA Junior 939 01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:14,800 will cancel that out. But 940 01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:19,159 anyway, so they all were very, very 941 01:39:19,159 --> 01:39:21,079 ambitious as well. I'm saying, and that's 942 01:39:21,079 --> 01:39:22,119 where you came from. 943 01:39:22,520 --> 01:39:24,760 You came from that background of great 944 01:39:24,760 --> 01:39:29,079 ambition, not to mention wealth. And I 945 01:39:29,079 --> 01:39:29,760 grew up in New Bedford, 946 01:39:30,079 --> 01:39:33,199 Massachusetts. We weren't broke. I mean, 947 01:39:33,199 --> 01:39:35,960 my father was did very well for us, 948 01:39:35,960 --> 01:39:37,520 actually. And I got to 949 01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:39,560 go to good schools and, you know, I 950 01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:43,159 didn't miss a meal and blah, blah. But 951 01:39:43,159 --> 01:39:44,359 that kind of, but he was 952 01:39:44,359 --> 01:39:47,199 a salesman. That kind of ambition was 953 01:39:47,199 --> 01:39:48,840 not, I didn't know anybody 954 01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:50,119 who had that kind of ambition 955 01:39:50,279 --> 01:39:53,479 going up. I do now a lot of people. But 956 01:39:53,479 --> 01:39:55,039 in, you know, growing up, 957 01:39:55,039 --> 01:39:56,720 that wasn't my background. So 958 01:39:57,079 --> 01:40:04,720 for me, for me, success is just getting 959 01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:06,920 to do it, you know, 960 01:40:06,920 --> 01:40:08,279 getting to do it and doing okay. 961 01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:13,960 I mean, I do okay. But I had this Aunt 962 01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:16,439 Marcia, and she was my 963 01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:18,920 father's sister. She was married 964 01:40:19,199 --> 01:40:22,199 for long enough to have her to get 965 01:40:22,199 --> 01:40:24,239 pregnant and then was 966 01:40:24,239 --> 01:40:27,079 unmarried. And her whole life, she was 967 01:40:27,439 --> 01:40:31,079 single mom. And she worked in a factory. 968 01:40:31,319 --> 01:40:33,319 She was a bookteacher in a 969 01:40:33,319 --> 01:40:35,720 factory that made rubber things. 970 01:40:36,039 --> 01:40:38,399 I don't know what exactly we get. But, 971 01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:41,840 and so she didn't have any 972 01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:44,800 money. She was okay. It wasn't 973 01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:48,279 expensive to live back then. But, and she 974 01:40:48,279 --> 01:40:49,239 certainly didn't have any 975 01:40:49,239 --> 01:40:51,119 ambition except for her son to do 976 01:40:51,119 --> 01:40:54,279 well. That was her only ambition. Anyway, 977 01:40:54,680 --> 01:40:57,039 so when Aunt Marcia got very 978 01:40:57,039 --> 01:40:58,399 sick at the end and went to 979 01:40:58,399 --> 01:41:01,079 the nursing home, I went to visit her one 980 01:41:01,079 --> 01:41:05,000 time. And she said to me, 981 01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:08,000 she said, "Look at you, Henry. 982 01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,520 You're a photographer." And I still don't 983 01:41:12,520 --> 01:41:14,359 know whether she meant 984 01:41:14,359 --> 01:41:16,119 I'm doing really well or I'm 985 01:41:16,119 --> 01:41:19,520 a failure. Because I didn't know what 986 01:41:19,520 --> 01:41:20,680 that meant to her, you 987 01:41:20,680 --> 01:41:22,960 know, because we didn't know. 988 01:41:23,159 --> 01:41:26,560 It's kind of, you know, those kinds of 989 01:41:26,560 --> 01:41:28,680 ambitions growing up. But 990 01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:30,520 once I started to see, you know, 991 01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:32,600 people who did, even the graduate school, 992 01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:33,439 I didn't really have a lot 993 01:41:33,439 --> 01:41:36,399 of ambition, I wouldn't say a 994 01:41:36,439 --> 01:41:38,359 little bit. I mean, ambition for my work, 995 01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:41,159 but it shows for success 996 01:41:41,159 --> 01:41:42,800 and so forth and so on. 997 01:41:43,199 --> 01:41:45,560 Not many people had that in those days. 998 01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:49,680 But I kind of, you know, kind of got 999 01:41:49,680 --> 01:41:51,680 interested in it as I 1000 01:41:51,680 --> 01:41:54,039 went along and tried to get more shows 1001 01:41:54,039 --> 01:41:56,399 and tried to get, you know, more 1002 01:41:56,399 --> 01:42:01,199 connected. But I think now 1003 01:42:01,199 --> 01:42:05,760 I'm back to successes that I, I mean, I 1004 01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:09,319 look at friends of mine who 1005 01:42:09,319 --> 01:42:13,640 have real jobs and, you know, 1006 01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:15,920 and I look and I don't see any of them 1007 01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:17,399 who's, and some of them 1008 01:42:17,399 --> 01:42:19,800 done very well. I look at them, 1009 01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:23,159 I don't envy them for a minute, you know, 1010 01:42:23,840 --> 01:42:25,359 having getting to do what you 1011 01:42:25,359 --> 01:42:26,880 do, getting to do what I do. 1012 01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:30,880 That's amazing. Chuck Close gave the 1013 01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:35,680 graduating speech, commencement speech, 1014 01:42:36,039 --> 01:42:38,560 Ed Rizzi many years ago. And I remember 1015 01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:39,800 this so well, you know, he 1016 01:42:39,800 --> 01:42:41,319 didn't speak to the graduating 1017 01:42:41,319 --> 01:42:43,840 class, to the students. He spoke to the 1018 01:42:43,840 --> 01:42:45,680 parents and he said, I 1019 01:42:45,680 --> 01:42:46,880 know a lot of you are worried 1020 01:42:47,840 --> 01:42:51,039 children becoming an artist and how they 1021 01:42:51,039 --> 01:42:52,720 make a living and all of that. He said, 1022 01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:57,359 you've given your children the chance to 1023 01:42:57,359 --> 01:42:58,239 have the greatest life 1024 01:42:58,239 --> 01:43:01,439 imaginable, their own life. 1025 01:43:02,279 --> 01:43:05,439 And he's very, very happy for that. I 1026 01:43:05,439 --> 01:43:07,920 think there's this full circle here. And 1027 01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:09,880 we talk about us as, 1028 01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:13,880 you know, 18 year old kids who gravitate 1029 01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:16,800 towards a form of art. And 1030 01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:19,439 because, like, it's a passion 1031 01:43:19,920 --> 01:43:24,119 and you feel cool, you look cool doing it 1032 01:43:24,119 --> 01:43:26,439 and all that. And then, you 1033 01:43:26,439 --> 01:43:28,159 know, getting to this point 1034 01:43:28,159 --> 01:43:32,319 now and saying that your definition of 1035 01:43:32,319 --> 01:43:35,039 success is to just be able to 1036 01:43:35,039 --> 01:43:37,840 keep doing that thing that you 1037 01:43:37,840 --> 01:43:40,760 gravitated towards all those years ago. 1038 01:43:41,319 --> 01:43:44,119 And I can't imagine a 1039 01:43:44,119 --> 01:43:45,840 better way to say that's a life 1040 01:43:46,199 --> 01:43:50,119 or well lived. That's absolutely. And, 1041 01:43:50,119 --> 01:43:53,640 you know, a lot of I said it jokingly 1042 01:43:53,640 --> 01:43:54,920 before, but I mean it, 1043 01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,680 a lot of people in our field who are able 1044 01:43:57,680 --> 01:43:58,920 to do their own work, 1045 01:43:58,920 --> 01:44:01,279 they have they have something 1046 01:44:01,319 --> 01:44:04,319 behind them. A partner with a lot of 1047 01:44:04,319 --> 01:44:05,520 money, a family with a lot 1048 01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:07,840 of money. So I don't know. 1049 01:44:08,279 --> 01:44:13,359 Sadly, that's but you have something. I 1050 01:44:13,359 --> 01:44:17,560 mean, being able to live the life that 1051 01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:19,319 you have always wanted 1052 01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:22,800 and happy with what you're doing, like be 1053 01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:24,720 excited about waking up 1054 01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:26,119 every day and getting to do what 1055 01:44:26,119 --> 01:44:31,439 you want to do. That's that's that's more 1056 01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:32,840 than all the Teslas in the 1057 01:44:32,840 --> 01:44:36,399 world. So I could keep talking 1058 01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:41,439 to you forever. You know, I was I was 1059 01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:42,920 hoping to touch on a whole 1060 01:44:42,920 --> 01:44:44,600 bunch of other subjects with so 1061 01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:46,239 maybe we'll do a second part at some 1062 01:44:46,239 --> 01:44:50,920 point. But one final time, you have a 1063 01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:52,039 book that's coming out. 1064 01:44:52,640 --> 01:44:54,680 The book is called Miles and Miles of 1065 01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:57,560 Texas. Right. It's self 1066 01:44:57,560 --> 01:44:59,920 published. How can people find it? 1067 01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:01,720 Where can they find it 1068 01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:03,079 and how can they find it? 1069 01:45:03,319 --> 01:45:06,119 It's out. It's out by the time this comes 1070 01:45:06,119 --> 01:45:08,920 out, I'm sure. And I 1071 01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:11,680 it's on my website, which 1072 01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:16,119 we'll link to that.com. And we're trying 1073 01:45:16,119 --> 01:45:18,159 to get onto Amazon. They're 1074 01:45:18,159 --> 01:45:19,399 giving us a lot of trouble. 1075 01:45:19,399 --> 01:45:21,239 I don't know why, but eventually it'll be 1076 01:45:21,239 --> 01:45:23,560 on Amazon. And I'm touring 1077 01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:25,359 for the book. I really am. 1078 01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:29,199 I'll be in a lot of places and you can 1079 01:45:29,199 --> 01:45:32,199 check my website's got the tour updated, 1080 01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:35,880 try to update it frequently, but I'll be 1081 01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:38,319 in Texas a lot. I'll be at the Texas Book 1082 01:45:38,640 --> 01:45:41,119 Festival in November, which is actually 1083 01:45:41,119 --> 01:45:42,960 quite a large festival. 1084 01:45:43,239 --> 01:45:44,079 People come from all over. 1085 01:45:45,199 --> 01:45:48,960 And so, you know, in various bookstores, 1086 01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:51,439 but I'm not doing a lot of 1087 01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:52,720 that because it's too much work. 1088 01:45:53,079 --> 01:45:57,479 But also, if you have New York people 1089 01:45:57,479 --> 01:45:58,319 listening, I'm sure you 1090 01:45:58,319 --> 01:46:00,680 do. There's going to be a 1091 01:46:01,319 --> 01:46:04,039 book signing November 4th that resolutely 1092 01:46:04,039 --> 01:46:06,600 bookstore, which is, you know, 1093 01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:07,920 the bookstore. Rizzoli. 1094 01:46:08,239 --> 01:46:09,760 Rizzoli. Rizzoli. Yeah. 1095 01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:12,319 Which is, I don't even know where they 1096 01:46:12,319 --> 01:46:14,319 are. Fifth Avenue, something. But, 1097 01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:18,039 and along the way, they have these in 1098 01:46:18,039 --> 01:46:20,720 conversation things you probably know 1099 01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:22,159 about, but they'll put 1100 01:46:22,159 --> 01:46:24,319 somebody else with you. Can't have a 1101 01:46:24,319 --> 01:46:27,159 talk. And so we're going to have a woman 1102 01:46:27,159 --> 01:46:28,279 named Laura Cantrell, 1103 01:46:28,680 --> 01:46:31,119 who's a country singer from New York and 1104 01:46:31,119 --> 01:46:33,880 a DJ and all of that. So 1105 01:46:33,880 --> 01:46:34,880 that's going to be fun. 1106 01:46:35,439 --> 01:46:39,079 Kind of a fun event, I think. And come to 1107 01:46:39,079 --> 01:46:41,439 Rizzoli bookstore. Follow 1108 01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:43,520 me. Do all the, you know, 1109 01:46:44,159 --> 01:46:47,000 I meant it if you have anything to say or 1110 01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:48,319 want to email is best for me. 1111 01:46:48,359 --> 01:46:51,039 So I'm taking it on the road. That's the 1112 01:46:51,039 --> 01:46:52,680 other way. If you want me to sign it, 1113 01:46:54,199 --> 01:46:55,960 get it directly from me. If you don't 1114 01:46:55,960 --> 01:46:58,880 care, then, you know, go 1115 01:46:58,880 --> 01:47:00,680 to Amazon or, you know, 1116 01:47:01,479 --> 01:47:03,640 bookstore or whatever. Thank you for that 1117 01:47:03,640 --> 01:47:06,640 plug. Yes. Thank you so, so 1118 01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:08,239 much, Henry. This has been 1119 01:47:08,279 --> 01:47:12,720 so fun. Oh, and yeah, definitely. Let's, 1120 01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:13,680 let's schedule to have 1121 01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:17,279 a chat. Off, off life.