1 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,541 [MUSIC] 2 01:00:07,666 --> 01:00:09,333 What happens when you follow your 3 01:00:09,333 --> 01:00:10,833 creative vision before 4 01:00:10,833 --> 01:00:12,208 you know where it will lead? 5 01:00:13,041 --> 01:00:14,208 Welcome to this episode 6 01:00:14,208 --> 01:00:15,208 of All of Your Stories. 7 01:00:15,625 --> 01:00:18,500 I'm your host, Hava Gurvic, and today I'm 8 01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:19,083 joined by 9 01:00:19,083 --> 01:00:21,416 Ukrainian-born conceptual portrait 10 01:00:21,500 --> 01:00:24,333 artist, Anya Aunty, who moved to New York 11 01:00:24,333 --> 01:00:25,708 with her husband, two 12 01:00:25,708 --> 01:00:27,125 suitcases, and no plan, 13 01:00:27,416 --> 01:00:28,166 just a dream. 14 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,791 Known for her surreal, meticulously 15 01:00:30,791 --> 01:00:32,250 crafted portraits of 16 01:00:32,250 --> 01:00:34,666 women, Anya shares how she found 17 01:00:34,666 --> 01:00:37,541 her artistic niche and the self-portrait 18 01:00:37,541 --> 01:00:38,875 that went viral during 19 01:00:38,875 --> 01:00:40,291 one of her darkest moments, 20 01:00:40,666 --> 01:00:42,708 and how she brings her fantastic vision 21 01:00:42,708 --> 01:00:43,958 to life through 22 01:00:43,958 --> 01:00:46,666 costumes, props, on-location 23 01:00:46,791 --> 01:00:49,625 shoots, and hours of digital compositing. 24 01:00:50,250 --> 01:00:52,416 Join us as we go behind the scenes of her 25 01:00:52,416 --> 01:00:54,083 creative process, the 26 01:00:54,083 --> 01:00:55,166 power of trusting your 27 01:00:55,208 --> 01:00:57,875 voice, and how she's navigating the rise 28 01:00:57,875 --> 01:00:59,625 of AI-generated art 29 01:00:59,625 --> 01:01:01,250 that may mimic the look, 30 01:01:01,666 --> 01:01:03,958 but not the heart, of her work. 31 01:01:04,791 --> 01:01:06,166 Welcome to the podcast, Anya. 32 01:01:07,291 --> 01:01:09,416 Now quick word from our sponsor, and then 33 01:01:09,416 --> 01:01:10,708 we'll get right back to the show. 34 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:12,791 When I started selling my art, I had 35 01:01:12,791 --> 01:01:14,333 absolutely no idea how to 36 01:01:14,333 --> 01:01:16,000 actually turn it into a business, 37 01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:17,708 a professional business. 38 01:01:18,291 --> 01:01:20,916 And then I came across art storefronts, 39 01:01:20,916 --> 01:01:22,791 and that was a game changer. 40 01:01:22,958 --> 01:01:25,875 I've been a customer now for years, and 41 01:01:25,875 --> 01:01:27,000 they've been instrumental 42 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:28,875 every step of the way of 43 01:01:28,875 --> 01:01:29,875 helping me succeed. 44 01:01:30,375 --> 01:01:31,875 I have a gorgeous, 45 01:01:31,875 --> 01:01:33,500 powerful commerce website. 46 01:01:34,125 --> 01:01:37,375 I have marketing tools and a membership 47 01:01:37,375 --> 01:01:39,875 to a community that is 48 01:01:39,875 --> 01:01:42,000 very supportive and teaches 49 01:01:42,041 --> 01:01:44,583 me how to succeed as an artist. 50 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,000 Check them out, artstorefronts.com, and 51 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:49,000 tell them how I sent you. 52 01:01:50,833 --> 01:01:53,000 So Anya, welcome, and thank 53 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,000 you for being on my podcast. 54 01:01:57,291 --> 01:01:57,583 Yes. 55 01:01:57,833 --> 01:01:58,250 Hi, everyone. 56 01:01:58,458 --> 01:01:59,958 Thank you so much for having me. 57 01:02:00,500 --> 01:02:04,125 And I'd like to start by maybe you can 58 01:02:04,125 --> 01:02:06,333 just tell us a little 59 01:02:06,333 --> 01:02:07,500 bit about your background 60 01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:12,958 and how you got to photography, whatever 61 01:02:12,958 --> 01:02:14,291 you feel comfortable sharing. 62 01:02:15,625 --> 01:02:17,250 Well, I've always been a creative kid. 63 01:02:17,291 --> 01:02:19,291 I was always good in paintings and 64 01:02:19,291 --> 01:02:21,208 drawings and all sorts of crafts. 65 01:02:22,750 --> 01:02:25,291 But unfortunately, I've never went to an 66 01:02:25,291 --> 01:02:26,250 art school, even though 67 01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:27,666 I wanted to, but it was 68 01:02:27,958 --> 01:02:28,541 kind of expensive. 69 01:02:28,791 --> 01:02:29,666 I couldn't afford it. 70 01:02:29,666 --> 01:02:31,416 I had just a little bit of classes in my 71 01:02:31,416 --> 01:02:32,708 high school, like 72 01:02:32,708 --> 01:02:35,291 ethnic kind of painting. 73 01:02:35,625 --> 01:02:36,041 That's it. 74 01:02:36,958 --> 01:02:38,541 But I was always like this creative 75 01:02:38,541 --> 01:02:40,583 person, and I needed my creative outlet. 76 01:02:40,916 --> 01:02:42,541 And that's when photography, digital 77 01:02:42,541 --> 01:02:44,333 photography became a big thing. 78 01:02:46,541 --> 01:02:47,291 I discovered it for 79 01:02:47,291 --> 01:02:48,500 myself, and I fell in love. 80 01:02:48,708 --> 01:02:51,166 And also, about the same time, I started 81 01:02:51,166 --> 01:02:52,416 to explore Photoshop 82 01:02:52,416 --> 01:02:54,500 because I was still in college. 83 01:02:55,916 --> 01:02:57,500 And I was figuring out 84 01:02:57,500 --> 01:02:58,666 what to do with my life. 85 01:02:59,166 --> 01:03:01,000 And again, because I was a creative kid, 86 01:03:01,625 --> 01:03:02,541 I wanted to do 87 01:03:02,541 --> 01:03:03,750 something more creative with 88 01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:04,291 my career. 89 01:03:04,625 --> 01:03:08,458 So I was exploring, maybe becoming like a 90 01:03:08,458 --> 01:03:09,958 digital, not a designer, 91 01:03:10,250 --> 01:03:11,250 but like a web designer 92 01:03:11,291 --> 01:03:13,666 maybe, or something to do with design, 93 01:03:13,666 --> 01:03:14,833 like illustration maybe. 94 01:03:14,833 --> 01:03:15,875 So I started to learn 95 01:03:15,875 --> 01:03:17,750 Photoshop and Illustrator. 96 01:03:18,458 --> 01:03:19,625 So for me, Photoshop even 97 01:03:19,625 --> 01:03:21,625 came earlier than photography. 98 01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,875 I started learning Photoshop even before 99 01:03:24,875 --> 01:03:25,875 I got into photography. 100 01:03:27,250 --> 01:03:28,958 I already had a digital camera, but like 101 01:03:28,958 --> 01:03:30,166 a little one back in 102 01:03:30,166 --> 01:03:31,000 the day when everybody 103 01:03:31,041 --> 01:03:31,750 had it. 104 01:03:33,916 --> 01:03:35,500 It was around 2008. 105 01:03:37,541 --> 01:03:40,375 So I started to learn how to remove 106 01:03:40,375 --> 01:03:42,708 pimples and dark circles 107 01:03:42,708 --> 01:03:44,583 under eyes to just make 108 01:03:45,250 --> 01:03:48,583 my home photos more pretty, how to 109 01:03:48,583 --> 01:03:49,708 increase contrast and 110 01:03:49,708 --> 01:03:51,416 maybe boost saturation just to 111 01:03:51,416 --> 01:03:52,500 make my photographs a 112 01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:53,500 little bit prettier. 113 01:03:55,208 --> 01:03:56,791 So yeah, and that's when 114 01:03:56,791 --> 01:03:57,875 I discovered photography. 115 01:03:58,166 --> 01:04:01,541 Around 2009, I got my first DSLR camera 116 01:04:01,541 --> 01:04:03,416 with all of my savings. 117 01:04:03,416 --> 01:04:04,083 It was like $400. 118 01:04:06,500 --> 01:04:08,500 So yeah, I've been doing photography for, 119 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,541 oh my god, 15 years now, I guess. 120 01:04:11,833 --> 01:04:12,833 Like everybody else, I 121 01:04:12,833 --> 01:04:15,583 started, I didn't know what to do. 122 01:04:15,583 --> 01:04:17,958 I just photographed everything around me, 123 01:04:18,583 --> 01:04:20,958 like my friends, city landscapes. 124 01:04:21,458 --> 01:04:22,708 I was experimenting with different 125 01:04:22,708 --> 01:04:24,708 genres, but what I was 126 01:04:24,708 --> 01:04:26,708 pretty certain of that I wanted 127 01:04:26,708 --> 01:04:28,375 to create something that was different 128 01:04:28,375 --> 01:04:29,500 than everybody else. 129 01:04:31,166 --> 01:04:33,875 So that's why I started to experiment a 130 01:04:33,875 --> 01:04:35,333 long way, not just learn 131 01:04:35,333 --> 01:04:37,375 how to take pictures and 132 01:04:37,416 --> 01:04:40,166 work with my camera, but also how to 133 01:04:40,166 --> 01:04:42,166 enhance them with 134 01:04:42,166 --> 01:04:43,791 editing, with post-production. 135 01:04:44,333 --> 01:04:45,250 So you know, Photoshop. 136 01:04:47,041 --> 01:04:49,291 Let me, before, just kind of back up. 137 01:04:49,541 --> 01:04:51,916 So a little bit about your background. 138 01:04:52,291 --> 01:04:56,708 So where are you from and when, where 139 01:04:56,708 --> 01:04:57,541 were you when you 140 01:04:57,541 --> 01:04:59,041 started doing photography and 141 01:04:59,041 --> 01:04:59,708 where are you now? 142 01:05:00,208 --> 01:05:02,291 I'm originally from Ukraine, so that's 143 01:05:02,291 --> 01:05:04,625 where I started and 144 01:05:04,625 --> 01:05:06,916 spent the first years of my 145 01:05:06,916 --> 01:05:07,458 career. 146 01:05:08,583 --> 01:05:12,833 But in 2014, I moved to United States and 147 01:05:12,833 --> 01:05:13,958 it was a big pivotal 148 01:05:13,958 --> 01:05:15,500 moment for me, not just 149 01:05:15,625 --> 01:05:17,000 in terms of career, but just life, 150 01:05:17,333 --> 01:05:18,416 because it was just me, 151 01:05:18,916 --> 01:05:20,500 my husband, we didn't have 152 01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:22,375 any friends, no family, 153 01:05:22,375 --> 01:05:23,375 everybody's back there. 154 01:05:24,250 --> 01:05:25,458 Still most of our families 155 01:05:25,458 --> 01:05:26,458 are still back in Ukraine. 156 01:05:27,208 --> 01:05:28,916 So it was just two of us and we only had 157 01:05:28,916 --> 01:05:30,250 like two suitcases of 158 01:05:30,250 --> 01:05:32,500 stuff and my camera bag and 159 01:05:32,500 --> 01:05:34,458 that's it and my laptop and that's it. 160 01:05:36,041 --> 01:05:40,541 Did you have some destination or some job 161 01:05:40,541 --> 01:05:41,958 or something that you were coming to? 162 01:05:42,375 --> 01:05:42,875 No, nothing. 163 01:05:43,125 --> 01:05:45,125 So basically I won green card lottery. 164 01:05:47,291 --> 01:05:50,208 Yes, and we just decided to take a sleep 165 01:05:50,208 --> 01:05:51,583 and to move across the 166 01:05:51,583 --> 01:05:52,708 ocean to a completely new 167 01:05:52,708 --> 01:05:53,125 country. 168 01:05:54,750 --> 01:05:57,000 It was, I think it was my husband's first 169 01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:58,666 time abroad, like at all. 170 01:05:59,833 --> 01:06:02,083 It was my first time living by myself. 171 01:06:04,750 --> 01:06:06,583 So we didn't have any job offers, no 172 01:06:06,583 --> 01:06:07,875 opportunities, no, we 173 01:06:07,875 --> 01:06:08,583 didn't have an apartment. 174 01:06:08,875 --> 01:06:11,208 So the first week we lived with a friend 175 01:06:11,208 --> 01:06:12,375 that I never met 176 01:06:12,375 --> 01:06:13,833 before, we only met online. 177 01:06:15,750 --> 01:06:18,875 So that was a little scary, like coming 178 01:06:18,875 --> 01:06:20,500 to some of these places, 179 01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:21,708 some of these apartments 180 01:06:22,125 --> 01:06:23,333 on the Upper East Side, 181 01:06:24,250 --> 01:06:26,083 having no idea what to expect. 182 01:06:26,916 --> 01:06:28,291 So we slept on the mattress on 183 01:06:28,291 --> 01:06:29,458 the floor for the first week. 184 01:06:29,666 --> 01:06:31,458 We only got our first apartment. 185 01:06:32,875 --> 01:06:34,541 And it was also quite challenging because 186 01:06:34,541 --> 01:06:37,125 you probably know you 187 01:06:37,125 --> 01:06:39,333 have, in order to rent 188 01:06:39,333 --> 01:06:40,875 an apartment in the United States, you 189 01:06:40,875 --> 01:06:42,208 have to have like a tax 190 01:06:42,208 --> 01:06:44,083 return and credit score. 191 01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:46,083 We didn't have any of that obviously. 192 01:06:47,416 --> 01:06:50,250 So we had to pay three months deposit for 193 01:06:50,250 --> 01:06:51,333 the first apartment. 194 01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:53,666 We got it back, luckily, but it was all 195 01:06:53,666 --> 01:06:57,083 like, wow, because it was not just 196 01:06:57,083 --> 01:07:00,000 completely life-changing. 197 01:07:00,208 --> 01:07:01,250 It was also really hard. 198 01:07:01,291 --> 01:07:02,916 It was very non-difficult. 199 01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:05,875 Did you both speak English when you came? 200 01:07:06,833 --> 01:07:07,791 Yes, we spoke. 201 01:07:09,125 --> 01:07:11,125 I spoke a lot of American and my husband, 202 01:07:11,416 --> 01:07:13,166 but I've been 203 01:07:13,166 --> 01:07:14,291 studying English since I was 204 01:07:14,291 --> 01:07:17,750 six, and I've had a private tutor and 205 01:07:17,750 --> 01:07:19,750 English was like a 206 01:07:19,750 --> 01:07:22,416 mandatory class in my high school. 207 01:07:23,875 --> 01:07:26,000 But still, it's completely different when 208 01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:26,833 you learn language 209 01:07:26,833 --> 01:07:28,791 back in another country 210 01:07:28,791 --> 01:07:30,500 and you only speak it in class. 211 01:07:30,708 --> 01:07:32,458 It's like completely different when you 212 01:07:32,458 --> 01:07:34,375 land in a country when 213 01:07:34,375 --> 01:07:36,000 suddenly everybody speaks 214 01:07:36,166 --> 01:07:39,458 around you and you struggle to understand 215 01:07:39,458 --> 01:07:42,791 all the accents and 216 01:07:42,791 --> 01:07:44,125 all the slang words and 217 01:07:44,125 --> 01:07:44,958 all the phrases that 218 01:07:44,958 --> 01:07:46,083 you've never heard before. 219 01:07:46,916 --> 01:07:47,708 It was really hard. 220 01:07:47,958 --> 01:07:50,166 And also psychologically, it was really 221 01:07:50,166 --> 01:07:51,500 hard to speak for some 222 01:07:51,500 --> 01:07:53,875 reason because hearing and 223 01:07:53,875 --> 01:07:55,750 understanding is so much different than 224 01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:57,791 speaking because you struggle. 225 01:07:58,333 --> 01:07:59,500 You understand everything, but you 226 01:07:59,500 --> 01:08:00,791 struggle to find words. 227 01:08:01,291 --> 01:08:02,000 And you get really 228 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:03,791 self-conscious about pronouncing. 229 01:08:04,208 --> 01:08:04,625 Exactly. 230 01:08:05,166 --> 01:08:07,166 But yeah, psychologically, it's hard to 231 01:08:07,166 --> 01:08:09,166 go outside your comfort zone. 232 01:08:10,625 --> 01:08:12,541 It very much improved because it's been 233 01:08:12,541 --> 01:08:14,708 like 11 years now, but 234 01:08:14,708 --> 01:08:15,666 for the first couple of 235 01:08:15,666 --> 01:08:17,791 years, it was very difficult. 236 01:08:18,625 --> 01:08:21,166 So you were already doing photography and 237 01:08:21,166 --> 01:08:22,541 so you were already 238 01:08:22,541 --> 01:08:24,666 playing with Photoshop. 239 01:08:26,458 --> 01:08:30,041 You focus on portraiture and it's 240 01:08:30,041 --> 01:08:34,416 primarily women and it's a kind of 241 01:08:34,416 --> 01:08:39,291 surreal fantasy kind 242 01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:40,625 of portraiture. 243 01:08:40,875 --> 01:08:41,833 It's not just your 244 01:08:41,833 --> 01:08:44,125 regular straight photography. 245 01:08:45,083 --> 01:08:46,208 And I say surreal 246 01:08:46,208 --> 01:08:50,166 because you play with scale. 247 01:08:50,958 --> 01:08:53,000 You play with metaphors. 248 01:08:54,458 --> 01:08:54,875 Metaphors? 249 01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:55,416 Metaphors. Metaphors. 250 01:08:55,458 --> 01:08:56,000 Metaphors. 251 01:08:56,541 --> 01:08:59,500 Yes, there's always a story. 252 01:09:00,291 --> 01:09:03,500 It always feels like 253 01:09:03,500 --> 01:09:06,833 a still from a movie. 254 01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,791 Some kind of surreal 255 01:09:10,791 --> 01:09:12,125 like Alice in Wonderland. 256 01:09:12,500 --> 01:09:13,541 I love it. 257 01:09:14,833 --> 01:09:18,041 And very, very strong colors. 258 01:09:18,041 --> 01:09:19,875 Your palette, there's a lot of blue. 259 01:09:21,291 --> 01:09:23,625 And then you use color very selectively 260 01:09:23,625 --> 01:09:25,125 and very intentionally. 261 01:09:26,416 --> 01:09:29,583 And they're stunning. 262 01:09:29,583 --> 01:09:30,666 They're stunning photographs. 263 01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:31,666 How did you... 264 01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:32,583 Thank you so much. 265 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,416 How did you get there? 266 01:09:37,416 --> 01:09:40,375 And also, if you want to talk about your 267 01:09:40,375 --> 01:09:42,125 first break, your first big break. 268 01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:45,166 Well that's exactly what it is. 269 01:09:45,166 --> 01:09:45,875 You're absolutely right. 270 01:09:47,041 --> 01:09:48,541 I describe myself as a 271 01:09:48,541 --> 01:09:50,583 serious conceptual photographer. 272 01:09:51,333 --> 01:09:53,791 So I specialize in female portraiture. 273 01:09:53,791 --> 01:09:56,083 It's not because I'm against men. 274 01:09:57,083 --> 01:09:59,708 It's just that I like to think about my 275 01:09:59,708 --> 01:10:01,958 subjects as my alter-ingos. 276 01:10:03,708 --> 01:10:04,666 So I gravitate 277 01:10:04,666 --> 01:10:06,458 towards female photography. 278 01:10:08,291 --> 01:10:09,833 But yeah, how I got into the genre. 279 01:10:10,291 --> 01:10:11,541 So like I mentioned 280 01:10:11,541 --> 01:10:12,916 earlier, I got into photography. 281 01:10:13,166 --> 01:10:14,333 It was around 2009. 282 01:10:14,916 --> 01:10:15,666 That's when I first 283 01:10:15,666 --> 01:10:19,291 got my first DSLR camera. 284 01:10:20,875 --> 01:10:22,750 And for the first year and a half, maybe, 285 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:23,833 I was like, you know, 286 01:10:23,833 --> 01:10:24,750 I'm still finding myself 287 01:10:24,875 --> 01:10:26,416 trying to figure out even 288 01:10:26,416 --> 01:10:27,958 if I like photography at all. 289 01:10:28,375 --> 01:10:29,833 I was not shooting that much. 290 01:10:29,833 --> 01:10:31,250 I was like trying different genres. 291 01:10:31,250 --> 01:10:32,291 They're trying different things. 292 01:10:33,875 --> 01:10:34,958 For some reason, I wasn't into 293 01:10:34,958 --> 01:10:36,541 portraiture like at all at first. 294 01:10:36,541 --> 01:10:37,041 I was like, I don't 295 01:10:37,041 --> 01:10:38,000 want to photograph people. 296 01:10:38,500 --> 01:10:39,958 Maybe because everybody were 297 01:10:39,958 --> 01:10:40,833 photographing people. 298 01:10:41,041 --> 01:10:42,166 And like I said, I wanted to do something 299 01:10:42,166 --> 01:10:43,500 that would be different from everybody. 300 01:10:43,541 --> 01:10:44,291 I wanted to be different 301 01:10:44,291 --> 01:10:45,833 because I was always an outsider. 302 01:10:47,333 --> 01:10:48,166 I wanted to be different. 303 01:10:48,166 --> 01:10:48,791 So I was like, no, I'm 304 01:10:48,791 --> 01:10:50,125 not going to do portraiture. 305 01:10:50,625 --> 01:10:52,333 But then I met a girl 306 01:10:52,333 --> 01:10:53,541 that we later became friends. 307 01:10:54,041 --> 01:10:57,333 And she wasn't like a model, not in a 308 01:10:57,333 --> 01:10:58,208 professional way, but 309 01:10:58,208 --> 01:10:59,041 she was like a hobby. 310 01:10:59,250 --> 01:11:01,541 She just liked to take pictures. 311 01:11:03,125 --> 01:11:05,041 And she reached out to me and she said 312 01:11:05,041 --> 01:11:05,958 like, well, you know, I 313 01:11:05,958 --> 01:11:07,208 have a lot of cute outfits. 314 01:11:07,208 --> 01:11:07,916 I have some props. 315 01:11:08,416 --> 01:11:09,666 Let's do a photoshoot together. 316 01:11:09,666 --> 01:11:11,333 I'm like, sure, why not? 317 01:11:12,666 --> 01:11:14,125 Oh my God, it was so cliche. 318 01:11:15,250 --> 01:11:17,041 We went to the rail station, of course, 319 01:11:17,250 --> 01:11:17,958 and we took some 320 01:11:17,958 --> 01:11:19,166 pictures on the railroads. 321 01:11:20,625 --> 01:11:22,000 She was wearing a vintage 322 01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:23,875 outfit with high heel pumps. 323 01:11:24,458 --> 01:11:26,541 Don't ask me why we wear on the rails. 324 01:11:27,458 --> 01:11:28,625 It was also vintage. 325 01:11:28,833 --> 01:11:30,208 Like it was vintage inspired. 326 01:11:30,458 --> 01:11:32,875 She had like a little vintage suitcase. 327 01:11:33,625 --> 01:11:36,291 She had a vintage telephone, you know, 328 01:11:36,291 --> 01:11:38,083 with the handle, with the... 329 01:11:39,083 --> 01:11:39,291 Rovary. 330 01:11:40,041 --> 01:11:40,250 Yeah. 331 01:11:40,791 --> 01:11:41,083 Rovary dial. 332 01:11:42,416 --> 01:11:43,458 Don't ask me why. 333 01:11:43,458 --> 01:11:44,541 There was no concept. 334 01:11:44,541 --> 01:11:44,916 It was a... 335 01:11:44,916 --> 01:11:46,000 We were just having fun. 336 01:11:46,500 --> 01:11:47,500 It was good picture. 337 01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:49,083 So I really enjoyed it. 338 01:11:49,083 --> 01:11:50,916 And from there I got 339 01:11:50,916 --> 01:11:51,750 into a portrait shirt. 340 01:11:52,125 --> 01:11:54,375 And with this girl, we made a few more 341 01:11:54,375 --> 01:11:55,166 photoshoots together. 342 01:11:55,416 --> 01:11:56,166 Wait, wait. 343 01:11:56,250 --> 01:11:59,666 So this was a pivotal photoshoot. 344 01:12:00,541 --> 01:12:01,125 I think so. 345 01:12:01,125 --> 01:12:02,958 Maybe not this one, but the next one. 346 01:12:03,166 --> 01:12:04,083 And I wanted to put it up. 347 01:12:04,083 --> 01:12:05,666 But you liked it enough that you're like, 348 01:12:05,666 --> 01:12:06,708 okay, let's do this again. 349 01:12:07,041 --> 01:12:07,416 Yeah. 350 01:12:07,416 --> 01:12:09,000 And I was like, yeah, maybe I 351 01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:10,041 will do a portrait shirt now. 352 01:12:10,250 --> 01:12:10,708 Yeah, exactly. 353 01:12:11,500 --> 01:12:13,541 So we did another photoshoot together. 354 01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:14,750 And I remember very 355 01:12:14,750 --> 01:12:16,166 clearly it was summer. 356 01:12:16,458 --> 01:12:18,416 It was, I think it was August or July, 357 01:12:18,916 --> 01:12:20,041 but it was like the 358 01:12:20,041 --> 01:12:22,208 hottest day of summer. 359 01:12:22,208 --> 01:12:24,250 It was like 30 something degrees Celsius. 360 01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,791 And we went to local park and again, she 361 01:12:28,791 --> 01:12:29,541 grabbed a few props. 362 01:12:29,875 --> 01:12:31,583 She brought this beautiful book, like 363 01:12:31,583 --> 01:12:33,833 vintage also inspired like a scrapbook. 364 01:12:34,333 --> 01:12:34,666 It was really... 365 01:12:35,041 --> 01:12:36,166 It had a beautiful cover. 366 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:38,041 And we took a few portraits. 367 01:12:38,416 --> 01:12:39,500 Again, like just, you know, regular 368 01:12:39,500 --> 01:12:40,666 portraits in the park. 369 01:12:41,250 --> 01:12:43,791 I had a vintage manual lens, like Helios 370 01:12:43,791 --> 01:12:44,791 lens that I purchased 371 01:12:44,791 --> 01:12:46,000 on Smee market for like 372 01:12:46,166 --> 01:12:47,000 $30 maybe. 373 01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:49,083 And it produced like 374 01:12:49,083 --> 01:12:50,666 beautiful swirly bow case. 375 01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:53,333 I was like really into that at the time. 376 01:12:54,291 --> 01:12:55,750 But I remember like social 377 01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:57,208 media wasn't a thing yet. 378 01:12:57,666 --> 01:12:59,166 Like it was only starting out. 379 01:12:59,500 --> 01:13:01,458 So their photography forums were really 380 01:13:01,458 --> 01:13:02,500 big where we'd post 381 01:13:02,500 --> 01:13:04,208 your work and people would 382 01:13:04,291 --> 01:13:05,041 discuss it. 383 01:13:05,041 --> 01:13:05,750 So that's what I did. 384 01:13:06,166 --> 01:13:07,625 And I remember my photography wasn't 385 01:13:07,625 --> 01:13:09,000 really getting a lot of 386 01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,125 attention because I'm assuming 387 01:13:11,166 --> 01:13:13,791 it was pretty mediocre. 388 01:13:14,166 --> 01:13:15,333 It was like, you know, just 389 01:13:15,333 --> 01:13:16,416 portraits, nothing special. 390 01:13:17,083 --> 01:13:17,833 It wasn't bad. 391 01:13:17,833 --> 01:13:19,416 It was just not standing out. 392 01:13:21,208 --> 01:13:22,541 And I was really frustrated about that 393 01:13:22,541 --> 01:13:23,583 because you remember I 394 01:13:23,583 --> 01:13:25,375 wanted to be different from 395 01:13:25,375 --> 01:13:25,958 everyone else. 396 01:13:25,958 --> 01:13:26,833 I wanted to stand up. 397 01:13:28,458 --> 01:13:29,375 So I remember... 398 01:13:29,708 --> 01:13:31,208 So remember double photoshoot was in 399 01:13:31,208 --> 01:13:32,583 summer and I remember it was winter. 400 01:13:32,833 --> 01:13:34,833 So like six months maybe after that. 401 01:13:35,541 --> 01:13:36,541 I was sitting at home and I 402 01:13:36,541 --> 01:13:37,958 was bored and I was like... 403 01:13:39,541 --> 01:13:42,375 I was analyzing other people's work, what 404 01:13:42,375 --> 01:13:44,666 I liked about them and what was different 405 01:13:44,666 --> 01:13:45,208 about it. 406 01:13:45,208 --> 01:13:46,916 And I figured out that people use 407 01:13:46,916 --> 01:13:48,250 Photoshop but not in a 408 01:13:48,250 --> 01:13:49,500 way that I was using it. 409 01:13:49,500 --> 01:13:51,458 You know, clearing up maybe like skin a 410 01:13:51,458 --> 01:13:52,166 little bit and doing 411 01:13:52,166 --> 01:13:53,750 color and contrast maybe like 412 01:13:53,875 --> 01:13:54,666 cropping and rotating. 413 01:13:54,958 --> 01:13:55,250 That's it. 414 01:13:55,666 --> 01:13:57,333 I figured out that people used it heavily 415 01:13:57,333 --> 01:13:58,291 to like manipulate 416 01:13:58,291 --> 01:14:00,416 images to create something 417 01:14:00,583 --> 01:14:02,375 that wasn't captured in camera. 418 01:14:03,333 --> 01:14:04,833 And that's when it clicked to me and I 419 01:14:04,833 --> 01:14:06,458 was like, huh, maybe 420 01:14:06,458 --> 01:14:08,000 this is something I can do. 421 01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:09,583 And I remember I took one of the images 422 01:14:09,583 --> 01:14:11,000 from that photoshoot in 423 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,875 the summer and I, you know, 424 01:14:13,875 --> 01:14:14,750 I expanded the frame. 425 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,500 I created a square for the first time and 426 01:14:17,500 --> 01:14:18,708 that's what I'm still 427 01:14:18,708 --> 01:14:19,791 doing it to this day. 428 01:14:20,041 --> 01:14:20,875 All my work is square. 429 01:14:21,541 --> 01:14:24,541 I stretched the edges of the picture. 430 01:14:24,791 --> 01:14:25,583 I created square. 431 01:14:25,583 --> 01:14:26,666 I also stretched the bokeh. 432 01:14:26,958 --> 01:14:30,041 I made it even like bigger and swirlier. 433 01:14:30,833 --> 01:14:33,500 And I took, there was a picture where she 434 01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:34,750 was holding a buck but 435 01:14:34,750 --> 01:14:35,625 she was looking down. 436 01:14:35,875 --> 01:14:37,666 Then I took the eyes from another picture 437 01:14:37,666 --> 01:14:38,666 and I put them onto 438 01:14:38,666 --> 01:14:40,333 the frame to look to her. 439 01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:40,958 So I took them into the 440 01:14:40,958 --> 01:14:42,208 camera, straight into the camera. 441 01:14:42,750 --> 01:14:43,791 So I did all sorts of 442 01:14:43,791 --> 01:14:45,375 manipulation like compositing. 443 01:14:46,333 --> 01:14:48,083 I played with different, you know, film, 444 01:14:48,500 --> 01:14:50,250 emulated color presets. 445 01:14:50,708 --> 01:14:51,500 I put film grain. 446 01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:54,500 And that's when this photograph was worn. 447 01:14:54,708 --> 01:14:56,291 And if you like go to my website and 448 01:14:56,291 --> 01:14:57,458 scroll all the way to 449 01:14:57,458 --> 01:14:58,375 the down, it's still there. 450 01:14:58,583 --> 01:14:59,166 It's still there. 451 01:14:59,541 --> 01:15:00,500 It's still in my portfolio. 452 01:15:00,833 --> 01:15:03,875 And I remember when I first posted it on 453 01:15:03,875 --> 01:15:04,875 my, on the photography 454 01:15:04,875 --> 01:15:05,958 forum that I was active 455 01:15:05,958 --> 01:15:07,166 at, it like blew up. 456 01:15:07,458 --> 01:15:08,666 Everybody absolutely loved it. 457 01:15:09,625 --> 01:15:12,000 And I like to think that this was the 458 01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:12,958 pivotal moment in my 459 01:15:12,958 --> 01:15:15,041 career because it defined the 460 01:15:15,041 --> 01:15:17,500 genre of surrealistic kind of like 461 01:15:17,500 --> 01:15:19,250 storytelling, female 462 01:15:19,250 --> 01:15:22,000 portraiture, which I still do now to 463 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:22,416 this day. 464 01:15:22,750 --> 01:15:25,750 And I like to think about this moment as 465 01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:26,708 a start on my career. 466 01:15:27,583 --> 01:15:31,000 So it was like winter, 2000 and 11. 467 01:15:31,583 --> 01:15:31,791 Yeah. 468 01:15:32,416 --> 01:15:36,083 So being on photography forums and seeing 469 01:15:36,083 --> 01:15:37,041 what other people were 470 01:15:37,041 --> 01:15:39,958 doing was a big influence 471 01:15:39,958 --> 01:15:43,458 for you in that it was kind of like a big 472 01:15:43,458 --> 01:15:44,791 classroom, seeing what 473 01:15:44,791 --> 01:15:45,916 other people are doing. 474 01:15:46,291 --> 01:15:46,750 And that'd be a 475 01:15:46,750 --> 01:15:47,791 really good way to put it. 476 01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:48,166 Right. 477 01:15:48,625 --> 01:15:48,791 Yeah. 478 01:15:48,791 --> 01:15:49,875 And so it's like, you know, it's like 479 01:15:49,875 --> 01:15:50,916 some things you see, it's 480 01:15:50,916 --> 01:15:52,041 like, okay, that's nice. 481 01:15:52,041 --> 01:15:52,750 That's not for me. 482 01:15:52,750 --> 01:15:53,333 That's not for me. 483 01:15:54,458 --> 01:15:57,916 You saw something and it spoke to you as 484 01:15:57,916 --> 01:16:01,000 this, this is, this is 485 01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:02,041 the direction I want. 486 01:16:02,958 --> 01:16:04,416 And then you had this 487 01:16:04,416 --> 01:16:06,791 like immediate confirmation. 488 01:16:08,208 --> 01:16:08,291 Absolutely. 489 01:16:08,291 --> 01:16:09,750 I was searching for my 490 01:16:09,750 --> 01:16:12,125 style that would speak to me. 491 01:16:12,125 --> 01:16:14,750 And I think because I've always been, you 492 01:16:14,750 --> 01:16:16,541 know, artistic and I 493 01:16:16,541 --> 01:16:18,375 couldn't create paintings 494 01:16:18,375 --> 01:16:19,375 in a traditional way 495 01:16:19,375 --> 01:16:21,000 because I never learned how to. 496 01:16:22,250 --> 01:16:24,000 Photography gave me that kind of outlet 497 01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:25,958 and manipulation was my 498 01:16:25,958 --> 01:16:27,583 way of, you know, taking 499 01:16:27,583 --> 01:16:30,375 a brush and creating these worlds, but 500 01:16:30,375 --> 01:16:32,125 with the means of my 501 01:16:32,125 --> 01:16:33,291 camera and my computer. 502 01:16:34,708 --> 01:16:37,666 I always say that I use photography kind 503 01:16:37,666 --> 01:16:38,833 of like in a way to 504 01:16:38,833 --> 01:16:40,000 collect materials to create 505 01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:41,625 something that is impossible to capture. 506 01:16:42,583 --> 01:16:46,000 So from my shooting process is very 507 01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:48,416 different from like traditional, how 508 01:16:48,416 --> 01:16:49,250 people take pictures 509 01:16:49,375 --> 01:16:51,500 traditionally because when you look at my 510 01:16:51,500 --> 01:16:52,416 raw files, they 511 01:16:52,416 --> 01:16:53,666 sometimes I'm very chaotic 512 01:16:53,666 --> 01:16:57,125 because I take multiple frames. 513 01:16:57,500 --> 01:17:00,208 I take separate shots of different 514 01:17:00,208 --> 01:17:01,916 elements that I would like to add later. 515 01:17:02,125 --> 01:17:03,416 And then I stitch them all 516 01:17:03,416 --> 01:17:05,375 together into a final artwork. 517 01:17:05,708 --> 01:17:08,125 And my goal is yes, to create something 518 01:17:08,125 --> 01:17:10,000 that is a part of my 519 01:17:10,000 --> 01:17:11,500 imagination, something that 520 01:17:11,500 --> 01:17:12,333 does not exist. 521 01:17:13,416 --> 01:17:17,875 And I like to make these pictures as 522 01:17:17,875 --> 01:17:19,541 believable as possible that 523 01:17:19,541 --> 01:17:22,041 kind of like make them come 524 01:17:22,041 --> 01:17:22,666 to life. 525 01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:25,875 And so you posted this 526 01:17:25,875 --> 01:17:27,500 image and it kind of blew up. 527 01:17:28,625 --> 01:17:29,416 What happened next? 528 01:17:30,750 --> 01:17:33,583 For me, it was like an "oh" moment. 529 01:17:34,125 --> 01:17:36,000 I was like, "Oh, this is 530 01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:38,416 first of all, I achieved my goal. 531 01:17:38,875 --> 01:17:41,458 I drew attention to my work. 532 01:17:41,625 --> 01:17:44,500 Second of all, I realized that this is 533 01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:47,000 what I would love to do now. 534 01:17:47,916 --> 01:17:48,708 I love it. 535 01:17:48,708 --> 01:17:49,291 I love it. 536 01:17:49,583 --> 01:17:50,791 I'm passionate about it. 537 01:17:51,958 --> 01:17:53,333 I think I'm good at it. 538 01:17:53,583 --> 01:17:58,583 So 14 years later, I'm still doing it. 539 01:18:00,166 --> 01:18:04,125 So we've never met, but 540 01:18:04,125 --> 01:18:05,083 we have a friend in common. 541 01:18:05,333 --> 01:18:07,166 So I've known about you for a long time. 542 01:18:08,333 --> 01:18:11,458 And I always heard that there's actually, 543 01:18:11,458 --> 01:18:12,916 I'm seeing that photo 544 01:18:12,916 --> 01:18:16,708 behind you, the butterflies. 545 01:18:17,666 --> 01:18:21,500 And that particular image also was a 546 01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:23,333 pivotal moment for you, right? 547 01:18:25,083 --> 01:18:27,083 In a way, yes, I think so because it came 548 01:18:27,083 --> 01:18:29,041 around the time after 549 01:18:29,041 --> 01:18:29,791 I moved to the United 550 01:18:29,791 --> 01:18:30,166 States. 551 01:18:30,958 --> 01:18:33,500 And like I said, moving across the ocean 552 01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:34,750 to another country where 553 01:18:34,750 --> 01:18:36,166 we didn't have anybody, 554 01:18:36,208 --> 01:18:38,333 no friends, no family, no offers. 555 01:18:40,166 --> 01:18:41,791 And it's like completely different 556 01:18:41,791 --> 01:18:43,291 language and everything. 557 01:18:43,666 --> 01:18:45,541 So it was really hard. 558 01:18:45,750 --> 01:18:46,250 It was really 559 01:18:46,250 --> 01:18:48,458 challenging and I struggled a lot. 560 01:18:48,458 --> 01:18:49,833 I'm also a little introverted. 561 01:18:51,041 --> 01:18:53,333 So for me, it's really hard to reach out 562 01:18:53,333 --> 01:18:54,208 to people, make new 563 01:18:54,208 --> 01:18:55,750 friends and just be social. 564 01:18:57,083 --> 01:18:59,291 And obviously I struggle with it because 565 01:18:59,291 --> 01:19:00,666 I'm a new country and I 566 01:19:00,666 --> 01:19:01,500 have many friends here. 567 01:19:02,208 --> 01:19:05,208 This language barrier, mentality barrier, 568 01:19:05,458 --> 01:19:06,875 it all affected me 569 01:19:06,875 --> 01:19:09,041 how easy it was to me to 570 01:19:09,208 --> 01:19:10,958 go out there and photograph people. 571 01:19:10,958 --> 01:19:12,791 Because before moving to United States, I 572 01:19:12,791 --> 01:19:14,791 never took so far just before. 573 01:19:15,041 --> 01:19:17,625 I was not even considering, I was like, I 574 01:19:17,625 --> 01:19:18,875 want to be behind the camera. 575 01:19:18,875 --> 01:19:19,833 I want to have full control. 576 01:19:20,041 --> 01:19:23,666 I want to have a model and be responsible 577 01:19:23,666 --> 01:19:25,041 for one part of the 578 01:19:25,041 --> 01:19:26,083 image, which is taking 579 01:19:26,125 --> 01:19:26,458 pictures. 580 01:19:28,083 --> 01:19:29,750 But when I moved to the United States, I 581 01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:30,458 realized, well, first 582 01:19:30,458 --> 01:19:31,500 of all, it's really hard. 583 01:19:31,541 --> 01:19:33,000 I'm a new country and I have many friends 584 01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:33,708 and it's really hard 585 01:19:33,708 --> 01:19:35,000 for me to reach out to 586 01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:35,291 people. 587 01:19:37,208 --> 01:19:39,500 So that was probably the main reason why 588 01:19:39,500 --> 01:19:40,583 I started to do self-portrait. 589 01:19:40,916 --> 01:19:43,375 And when I first did a self-portrait, I 590 01:19:43,375 --> 01:19:45,791 realized that it's not just about me 591 01:19:45,791 --> 01:19:46,666 being more comfortable. 592 01:19:46,875 --> 01:19:52,166 It's also being even more intimate with 593 01:19:52,166 --> 01:19:52,916 my work in a way 594 01:19:52,916 --> 01:19:54,708 because now suddenly I am the 595 01:19:54,750 --> 01:19:57,875 subject of my own dream worlds and my own 596 01:19:57,875 --> 01:19:59,458 concepts and my own ideas. 597 01:20:02,958 --> 01:20:05,791 Plus it's convenient when we travel with 598 01:20:05,791 --> 01:20:07,166 my husband because if 599 01:20:07,166 --> 01:20:07,875 you look at my portfolio, 600 01:20:08,083 --> 01:20:11,250 a lot of images are on locations and all 601 01:20:11,250 --> 01:20:12,333 of those locations are real. 602 01:20:12,541 --> 01:20:14,166 I never do background swaps. 603 01:20:14,666 --> 01:20:20,000 I never shoot on a gray seamless backdrop 604 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,791 and change the background, which is fine, 605 01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:24,166 but it's just not for 606 01:20:24,166 --> 01:20:25,500 me, but I don't do that. 607 01:20:26,208 --> 01:20:26,916 All the locations you 608 01:20:26,916 --> 01:20:28,291 see are real locations. 609 01:20:28,291 --> 01:20:31,000 So I travel, I go out there and when we 610 01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,833 travel, it's convenient, 611 01:20:32,833 --> 01:20:33,625 just me and my husband. 612 01:20:33,916 --> 01:20:37,000 So I can be the subject of my own images. 613 01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,041 I don't have to find a 614 01:20:39,041 --> 01:20:40,583 model and hire somebody. 615 01:20:42,458 --> 01:20:45,166 So it has a lot of perks, but that's when 616 01:20:45,166 --> 01:20:47,500 I started to do self-portraiture a lot. 617 01:20:48,208 --> 01:20:50,875 And that's when I shifted to a more like 618 01:20:50,875 --> 01:20:53,250 cooler blue tones, I think. 619 01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:56,375 But this image that you can see behind 620 01:20:56,375 --> 01:20:57,291 me, the butterflies in 621 01:20:57,291 --> 01:21:00,208 my stomach, I think it 622 01:21:00,208 --> 01:21:03,958 was kind of like a climax of that process 623 01:21:03,958 --> 01:21:05,041 of me moving to 624 01:21:05,041 --> 01:21:06,958 another country because it's 625 01:21:06,958 --> 01:21:07,625 about anxiety. 626 01:21:08,250 --> 01:21:10,125 When people, the phrase butterflies in my 627 01:21:10,125 --> 01:21:10,708 stomach, people 628 01:21:10,708 --> 01:21:12,458 usually like it to use when 629 01:21:12,458 --> 01:21:14,166 you're like in love and you have this 630 01:21:14,166 --> 01:21:14,708 anxious feeling 631 01:21:14,708 --> 01:21:17,166 butterflies in your stomach, but any 632 01:21:17,666 --> 01:21:19,250 anxious feeling can give you butterflies 633 01:21:19,250 --> 01:21:20,166 in your stomach when 634 01:21:20,166 --> 01:21:21,333 you're nervous or whatever 635 01:21:21,458 --> 01:21:21,750 reason. 636 01:21:22,500 --> 01:21:25,083 So for me, it was kind of like very 637 01:21:25,083 --> 01:21:29,041 symbolic of that difficult 638 01:21:29,041 --> 01:21:30,500 and dark period in my life 639 01:21:30,625 --> 01:21:34,333 and it symbolizes me being reborn, like 640 01:21:34,333 --> 01:21:36,416 letting out all the bugs and 641 01:21:36,416 --> 01:21:38,791 being reborn is an integrant 642 01:21:38,791 --> 01:21:39,875 in your country, I guess. 643 01:21:40,416 --> 01:21:44,000 So yeah, that that photograph went viral. 644 01:21:44,875 --> 01:21:46,000 It was all over the internet. 645 01:21:47,583 --> 01:21:49,083 And for me, it was a big surprise because 646 01:21:49,083 --> 01:21:50,500 I did not expect it. 647 01:21:50,833 --> 01:21:52,125 I thought it was too dark. 648 01:21:52,416 --> 01:21:57,833 It was too dark, too deep, too creepy for 649 01:21:57,833 --> 01:22:01,125 masses, I guess, but 650 01:22:01,125 --> 01:22:03,750 people loved it and I'm 651 01:22:03,750 --> 01:22:04,875 grateful for it. 652 01:22:05,666 --> 01:22:08,708 It's something, one of the few lessons 653 01:22:08,708 --> 01:22:10,000 from art school that I 654 01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,416 have kept is that when you 655 01:22:13,875 --> 01:22:17,625 do something that's deeply personal and 656 01:22:17,625 --> 01:22:20,666 vulnerable, you are most 657 01:22:20,666 --> 01:22:22,833 likely going to hit a nerve that 658 01:22:22,833 --> 01:22:25,166 everybody can, it resonates with everyone 659 01:22:25,166 --> 01:22:27,250 because it's so schmoozapic. 660 01:22:27,708 --> 01:22:28,416 Yeah, I think so. 661 01:22:28,666 --> 01:22:28,875 Yeah. 662 01:22:29,500 --> 01:22:36,250 And so now you're, I've seen your work, 663 01:22:36,250 --> 01:22:39,375 you've traveled, you do workshops. 664 01:22:40,958 --> 01:22:43,333 Sometimes I do workshops, I do lectures, 665 01:22:44,041 --> 01:22:44,916 speaking engagements. 666 01:22:45,333 --> 01:22:46,166 How did that come? 667 01:22:46,166 --> 01:22:51,041 Is that just work that came to you from 668 01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:52,541 the exposure of being a 669 01:22:52,541 --> 01:22:54,625 photographer, of having 670 01:22:54,625 --> 01:22:56,208 that viral content? 671 01:22:57,208 --> 01:22:59,208 I've actually done a few workshops before 672 01:22:59,208 --> 01:23:00,166 I moved to the United States. 673 01:23:00,166 --> 01:23:00,708 I've done a few 674 01:23:00,708 --> 01:23:02,041 workshops in Ukraine and Russia. 675 01:23:02,750 --> 01:23:04,291 So it wasn't something new to me. 676 01:23:04,791 --> 01:23:07,375 I know just everybody did it back then. 677 01:23:07,416 --> 01:23:10,750 Like everybody who would be a little bit 678 01:23:10,750 --> 01:23:12,375 of popular online would 679 01:23:12,375 --> 01:23:13,666 do photography workshops 680 01:23:13,875 --> 01:23:16,416 and then I thought, why not do? 681 01:23:16,416 --> 01:23:19,208 The first viral photograph of your 682 01:23:19,208 --> 01:23:20,791 friend, that was still in Ukraine? 683 01:23:22,208 --> 01:23:24,291 Yes, it was 2011. 684 01:23:25,208 --> 01:23:25,583 So I moved to... 685 01:23:25,583 --> 01:23:25,791 That's right. 686 01:23:26,041 --> 01:23:27,041 Yeah, so you moved in 14. 687 01:23:27,375 --> 01:23:28,958 Yeah, so okay. 688 01:23:30,041 --> 01:23:30,500 Because... 689 01:23:30,500 --> 01:23:34,000 I had a few years to, you know, I was a 690 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:35,708 few years into my career already. 691 01:23:36,541 --> 01:23:38,083 What would you say is something that 692 01:23:38,083 --> 01:23:39,208 you're really proud of 693 01:23:39,208 --> 01:23:41,625 that feels like a made it 694 01:23:41,625 --> 01:23:43,333 kind of moment for you? 695 01:23:46,833 --> 01:23:49,083 There were a few different moments in my 696 01:23:49,083 --> 01:23:50,416 career that I'm absolutely 697 01:23:50,416 --> 01:23:52,541 grateful and I'm so proud. 698 01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:55,125 I've done it like a few different 699 01:23:55,125 --> 01:23:56,500 speaking engagements. 700 01:23:57,125 --> 01:24:00,625 For example, I was a WMAX speaker at one 701 01:24:00,625 --> 01:24:01,916 point and I was really 702 01:24:01,916 --> 01:24:04,583 big, I think, in terms of 703 01:24:04,583 --> 01:24:05,000 my career. 704 01:24:05,416 --> 01:24:09,583 But what I can think of is probably my 705 01:24:09,583 --> 01:24:11,041 project that I did a few 706 01:24:11,041 --> 01:24:12,500 years ago called Two and 707 01:24:12,500 --> 01:24:13,000 a Half Seconds. 708 01:24:13,541 --> 01:24:17,958 It wasn't really pivotal in terms of like 709 01:24:17,958 --> 01:24:19,083 success or career, 710 01:24:19,083 --> 01:24:20,166 but this is the project 711 01:24:20,166 --> 01:24:22,291 that I'm very, very 712 01:24:22,291 --> 01:24:24,083 proud of that I did it. 713 01:24:24,416 --> 01:24:26,083 And it was very deep and personal and 714 01:24:26,083 --> 01:24:27,416 meaningful to me because it 715 01:24:27,416 --> 01:24:28,375 was the first project that 716 01:24:28,416 --> 01:24:31,833 was not just, oh, you know, just pretty 717 01:24:31,833 --> 01:24:33,041 girls and pretty 718 01:24:33,041 --> 01:24:34,958 dresses in pretty locations. 719 01:24:34,958 --> 01:24:37,750 It had some meaning that I wanted to 720 01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:40,208 address to my followers 721 01:24:40,208 --> 01:24:42,541 and to people out there. 722 01:24:43,916 --> 01:24:44,708 This is the environmental... 723 01:24:45,458 --> 01:24:46,375 Yes, so yes. 724 01:24:47,208 --> 01:24:48,375 So yeah, and the Two and a Half Seconds 725 01:24:48,375 --> 01:24:50,125 is a project about 726 01:24:50,125 --> 01:24:51,000 climate change awareness. 727 01:24:52,291 --> 01:24:53,750 And I created it a few 728 01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:55,791 years ago in Iceland in 2019. 729 01:24:57,125 --> 01:24:59,375 But it was like a few years ago. 730 01:24:59,375 --> 01:25:01,000 It was a three-year-long project. 731 01:25:01,666 --> 01:25:02,958 And it's a series of 732 01:25:02,958 --> 01:25:03,583 different photographs. 733 01:25:03,875 --> 01:25:06,916 I think it's like nine or ten in total. 734 01:25:07,208 --> 01:25:08,958 And each photograph represents and 735 01:25:08,958 --> 01:25:10,083 illustrates a very 736 01:25:10,083 --> 01:25:12,750 specific environmental issue by me 737 01:25:12,750 --> 01:25:14,833 using photography medium, subjects, 738 01:25:15,125 --> 01:25:17,416 locations, symbolism and metaphors. 739 01:25:18,875 --> 01:25:21,375 What are you most 740 01:25:21,375 --> 01:25:22,708 passionate about right now? 741 01:25:25,750 --> 01:25:28,791 I don't know. 742 01:25:29,083 --> 01:25:30,041 I'm going to be honest. 743 01:25:30,458 --> 01:25:33,041 I'm kind of having a rough period right 744 01:25:33,041 --> 01:25:35,166 now in terms of my photography journey. 745 01:25:36,916 --> 01:25:38,416 The past few years have been really hard 746 01:25:38,416 --> 01:25:41,916 with all different sorts of things. 747 01:25:42,875 --> 01:25:45,166 War in Ukraine has definitely been a hit. 748 01:25:47,791 --> 01:25:49,666 All the social media 749 01:25:49,666 --> 01:25:51,250 algorithms are not helping. 750 01:25:51,625 --> 01:25:53,958 And now the boom of the 751 01:25:53,958 --> 01:25:56,916 AI also contributing of... 752 01:25:58,083 --> 01:25:59,875 Maybe not just me, but a lot of people 753 01:25:59,875 --> 01:26:00,833 are struggling with 754 01:26:00,833 --> 01:26:02,791 motivation and inspiration. 755 01:26:03,583 --> 01:26:04,833 So right now I'm trying to 756 01:26:04,833 --> 01:26:07,375 figure out what's next for me. 757 01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,500 If I should evolve as a photographer 758 01:26:10,500 --> 01:26:14,041 altogether and maybe take a little bit of 759 01:26:14,041 --> 01:26:15,041 different direction, 760 01:26:15,041 --> 01:26:16,291 maybe explore different mediums. 761 01:26:16,291 --> 01:26:17,541 I honestly don't know. 762 01:26:19,083 --> 01:26:21,458 I know it feels like a very frustrating 763 01:26:21,458 --> 01:26:23,041 place to be and I don't 764 01:26:23,041 --> 01:26:24,166 want to make light of it. 765 01:26:24,166 --> 01:26:26,833 But it's also in a sense kind of exciting 766 01:26:26,833 --> 01:26:29,875 because you think 767 01:26:29,875 --> 01:26:32,750 about your butterflies in 768 01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:33,791 your stomach photograph. 769 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:38,416 It came from a very dark place and the 770 01:26:38,416 --> 01:26:42,083 authenticity of that emotion is what 771 01:26:42,083 --> 01:26:43,166 propelled it forward. 772 01:26:44,125 --> 01:26:46,791 So it almost feels like you're going 773 01:26:46,791 --> 01:26:48,041 through another metamorphosis. 774 01:26:49,750 --> 01:26:57,458 So you touched on an AI and this was 775 01:26:57,458 --> 01:26:58,875 something that I thought 776 01:26:58,875 --> 01:27:01,291 about because I've known your 777 01:27:01,291 --> 01:27:04,625 work and the thing that really stood out 778 01:27:04,625 --> 01:27:06,000 to me is just how 779 01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:09,833 seamless and believable your 780 01:27:09,833 --> 01:27:11,000 images are. 781 01:27:13,583 --> 01:27:16,791 In a time where Photoshop wasn't even all 782 01:27:16,791 --> 01:27:18,583 that sophisticated 783 01:27:18,583 --> 01:27:21,833 and that's probably why 784 01:27:21,833 --> 01:27:25,250 you get selected to give workshops 785 01:27:25,250 --> 01:27:29,750 because it's so well 786 01:27:29,750 --> 01:27:33,541 thought out and it's interesting 787 01:27:33,666 --> 01:27:35,625 to see because you sort of have like 788 01:27:35,625 --> 01:27:37,708 behind the scenes images 789 01:27:37,708 --> 01:27:40,500 that show what objects are 790 01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:42,958 small and you enlarge then what objects 791 01:27:42,958 --> 01:27:46,625 you sort of like created large versions. 792 01:27:47,250 --> 01:27:50,750 So there's a lot of set design and 793 01:27:50,750 --> 01:27:52,083 there's a lot that goes 794 01:27:52,083 --> 01:27:54,500 into your photographs and 795 01:27:54,500 --> 01:27:56,750 in the end what the result is this 796 01:27:56,750 --> 01:27:59,375 surrealness of like this 797 01:27:59,375 --> 01:28:02,916 feels like it's real but it can't 798 01:28:02,916 --> 01:28:03,666 possibly be. 799 01:28:03,666 --> 01:28:04,333 No it's not. 800 01:28:05,500 --> 01:28:09,125 And now it feels like there's a part of 801 01:28:09,125 --> 01:28:10,500 you that might have to 802 01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:13,416 be like I actually go on 803 01:28:13,416 --> 01:28:15,416 location I don't have AI 804 01:28:15,416 --> 01:28:17,875 generate the location for me. 805 01:28:17,958 --> 01:28:20,791 I actually have props I actually 806 01:28:20,791 --> 01:28:22,125 photograph the props or and 807 01:28:22,125 --> 01:28:24,083 make my props and I meticulously 808 01:28:25,125 --> 01:28:32,125 put everything together and it shifts the 809 01:28:32,125 --> 01:28:34,625 part of the conceptual 810 01:28:34,625 --> 01:28:36,708 part of your photographs 811 01:28:37,166 --> 01:28:38,625 because the 812 01:28:38,625 --> 01:28:41,208 believability of the unbelievable. 813 01:28:42,875 --> 01:28:47,500 It's not make sense but like you make it 814 01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:49,250 you made it you made it make sense. 815 01:28:49,500 --> 01:28:49,666 Yes. 816 01:28:50,833 --> 01:28:53,500 And so it's like it can't be true but but 817 01:28:53,500 --> 01:28:54,916 but it looks so real 818 01:28:54,916 --> 01:28:58,000 and I does that you know 819 01:28:58,208 --> 01:29:03,541 like just so I'm I'm very curious what 820 01:29:03,541 --> 01:29:05,208 your sort of how you feel 821 01:29:05,208 --> 01:29:08,916 about the fact that anybody 822 01:29:08,916 --> 01:29:12,333 now can just dream up some surreal 823 01:29:12,333 --> 01:29:15,666 situation and create an 824 01:29:15,666 --> 01:29:19,708 image just by with a few prompts. 825 01:29:20,500 --> 01:29:23,708 How do you how do you like how does that 826 01:29:23,708 --> 01:29:27,708 make you feel and are 827 01:29:27,708 --> 01:29:30,875 you on any level embracing 828 01:29:31,208 --> 01:29:36,083 AI as a tool because you are somebody who 829 01:29:36,083 --> 01:29:37,625 was embracing the 830 01:29:37,625 --> 01:29:39,833 technology from the get-go 831 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,458 so I'm really curious I'm sure there's a 832 01:29:43,458 --> 01:29:44,666 lot of like complicated 833 01:29:44,666 --> 01:29:45,666 love-hate relationships 834 01:29:46,041 --> 01:29:49,416 here and I would love for you to just you 835 01:29:49,416 --> 01:29:50,083 know whatever you're 836 01:29:50,083 --> 01:29:51,958 comfortable discussing. 837 01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:57,916 So well first of all thank you the secret 838 01:29:57,916 --> 01:29:58,833 of my photography is 839 01:29:58,833 --> 01:30:01,083 that I do use a lot of 840 01:30:01,291 --> 01:30:03,458 props and set design and installations 841 01:30:03,458 --> 01:30:04,833 and I you know I travel 842 01:30:04,833 --> 01:30:06,333 I go out there to a real 843 01:30:06,333 --> 01:30:08,583 location and it's funny to me because 844 01:30:08,583 --> 01:30:09,708 like you said from the 845 01:30:09,708 --> 01:30:10,875 very beginning I've been 846 01:30:10,958 --> 01:30:14,625 using Photoshop pretty heavily especially 847 01:30:14,625 --> 01:30:16,000 compared to you know 848 01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:17,083 traditional photographers 849 01:30:18,750 --> 01:30:21,041 and my whole career I've been defending 850 01:30:21,041 --> 01:30:22,333 myself people would say 851 01:30:22,333 --> 01:30:23,416 me oh you know it's all for 852 01:30:23,416 --> 01:30:24,875 a shop like this missily oh it's all 853 01:30:24,875 --> 01:30:25,625 photoshop it's not a real 854 01:30:25,625 --> 01:30:27,791 photography and I would have 855 01:30:27,791 --> 01:30:30,708 to you know defend myself and tell them 856 01:30:30,708 --> 01:30:33,458 that yes and no well yes I 857 01:30:33,458 --> 01:30:34,750 do use a lot of compositing 858 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:38,250 and you know photoshop editing but I also 859 01:30:38,250 --> 01:30:40,250 I go out there I take 860 01:30:40,250 --> 01:30:41,625 pictures myself I do 861 01:30:41,625 --> 01:30:44,750 use sets and props and I shoot as much as 862 01:30:44,750 --> 01:30:46,583 possible on set and 863 01:30:46,583 --> 01:30:48,333 that's what makes that's 864 01:30:48,333 --> 01:30:50,208 what helps me create my images you know 865 01:30:50,208 --> 01:30:52,458 believable with less effort 866 01:30:52,458 --> 01:30:56,125 and now suddenly I have not 867 01:30:56,125 --> 01:30:58,916 only photoshop is cool oh yes photoshop 868 01:30:58,916 --> 01:30:59,875 it's all made by hand 869 01:30:59,875 --> 01:31:01,041 suddenly I have to defend 870 01:31:01,250 --> 01:31:04,000 myself that it's not AI yeah and I've 871 01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:05,166 already had that reaction 872 01:31:05,166 --> 01:31:06,791 from people who would see my 873 01:31:07,625 --> 01:31:09,750 let's say Instagram account that I use as 874 01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:11,000 a portfolio and was like 875 01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:15,041 is it AI and I get very 876 01:31:15,041 --> 01:31:17,083 frustrated frustrated obviously because 877 01:31:17,083 --> 01:31:22,291 no I you know I I spend so much time 878 01:31:22,291 --> 01:31:23,500 coming up with concept 879 01:31:23,625 --> 01:31:26,916 developing concepts doing research doing 880 01:31:26,916 --> 01:31:28,500 locations counting reaching 881 01:31:28,500 --> 01:31:30,083 out to people models or whatever 882 01:31:30,208 --> 01:31:32,958 shooting myself creating props sourcing 883 01:31:32,958 --> 01:31:34,875 props me you know buying 884 01:31:34,875 --> 01:31:36,208 props then putting everything 885 01:31:36,208 --> 01:31:38,041 together and spending hours in photoshop 886 01:31:38,041 --> 01:31:40,375 making that final image 887 01:31:40,375 --> 01:31:42,791 and I've been doing this for 888 01:31:42,791 --> 01:31:44,958 15 years of my career you know evolving 889 01:31:44,958 --> 01:31:46,916 perfecting my skills learning 890 01:31:46,916 --> 01:31:49,625 becoming a different person in 891 01:31:49,625 --> 01:31:51,625 the process and then for somebody to come 892 01:31:51,625 --> 01:31:53,666 and tell me oh it's all AI 893 01:31:53,666 --> 01:31:56,166 with just you know click of a 894 01:31:56,375 --> 01:32:02,416 button basically um yeah it's it's very 895 01:32:02,416 --> 01:32:03,458 it's very frustrating 896 01:32:03,458 --> 01:32:06,666 because now we have the social 897 01:32:06,666 --> 01:32:08,541 media algorithm haven't been helping at 898 01:32:08,541 --> 01:32:09,708 all you know to get your 899 01:32:09,708 --> 01:32:11,708 work out there for it to be seen 900 01:32:11,708 --> 01:32:14,083 and appreciated now the internet is 901 01:32:14,083 --> 01:32:17,500 filled with all this AI slop that just 902 01:32:17,500 --> 01:32:20,375 devalues people keep 903 01:32:20,375 --> 01:32:22,625 telling me that yes people no don't worry 904 01:32:22,625 --> 01:32:23,500 people are going to 905 01:32:23,500 --> 01:32:25,041 appreciate people are going to you 906 01:32:25,083 --> 01:32:27,833 know appreciate more because it's all 907 01:32:27,833 --> 01:32:29,375 human made and like sure a 908 01:32:29,375 --> 01:32:30,541 certain amount of people but the 909 01:32:30,541 --> 01:32:32,541 rest are not going to care they're just 910 01:32:32,541 --> 01:32:34,291 going to you know scrollish 911 01:32:34,291 --> 01:32:35,666 social media whatever and just 912 01:32:35,666 --> 01:32:37,416 go see pictures and they won't see a 913 01:32:37,416 --> 01:32:39,208 difference and that is just 914 01:32:39,208 --> 01:32:41,916 devalues everything we as an 915 01:32:41,916 --> 01:32:44,541 artist do all our skills and experiences 916 01:32:44,541 --> 01:32:47,625 and you know years of work 917 01:32:47,625 --> 01:32:49,958 and effort and it just makes me 918 01:32:50,916 --> 01:32:53,833 sad and angry and frustrated and 919 01:32:53,833 --> 01:32:57,416 uncertain what's going to be next because 920 01:32:57,416 --> 01:32:59,666 suddenly my skills as a 921 01:32:59,666 --> 01:33:02,041 photoshop educator which i do i do 922 01:33:02,041 --> 01:33:03,666 tutorials i do workshops i do 923 01:33:03,666 --> 01:33:05,916 presentations are suddenly less 924 01:33:05,916 --> 01:33:08,791 required but that is fine you know it's 925 01:33:08,791 --> 01:33:11,375 just you know my way of 926 01:33:11,375 --> 01:33:12,833 making a little bit of living but 927 01:33:13,291 --> 01:33:15,958 as an artist it's also hurts because 928 01:33:15,958 --> 01:33:20,625 suddenly suddenly somebody who didn't 929 01:33:20,625 --> 01:33:21,666 spend that many years 930 01:33:21,791 --> 01:33:24,416 or who didn't you know get required 931 01:33:24,416 --> 01:33:27,666 skills talent whatever 932 01:33:27,666 --> 01:33:29,708 suddenly with just a few prompts 933 01:33:30,208 --> 01:33:32,916 they create an image and call it art and 934 01:33:32,916 --> 01:33:35,000 i'm like sorry no this is 935 01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:36,833 not art this is just a machine 936 01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:39,375 creating an image for you using 937 01:33:39,375 --> 01:33:42,000 everything we artists already create 938 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:44,416 scraped scraped images 939 01:33:44,458 --> 01:33:46,791 to teach a little bit of everything from 940 01:33:46,791 --> 01:33:49,208 we already created and generated 941 01:33:49,208 --> 01:33:50,375 something new for you 942 01:33:51,958 --> 01:33:55,208 so yes and you know it's just like it 943 01:33:55,208 --> 01:33:56,625 always gets me also 944 01:33:56,625 --> 01:33:58,541 frustrated the fact when all these like 945 01:33:58,541 --> 01:34:02,083 tech people who do you know develop all 946 01:34:02,083 --> 01:34:03,083 these tools and they're 947 01:34:03,083 --> 01:34:04,083 like oh we've developed these 948 01:34:04,125 --> 01:34:06,416 tools for you to make the process easier 949 01:34:06,416 --> 01:34:09,000 i'm like yes but you guess 950 01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:11,000 guess what we like the process 951 01:34:11,166 --> 01:34:13,166 we as artists we actually enjoy the 952 01:34:13,166 --> 01:34:15,333 process that's why we do it we like the 953 01:34:15,333 --> 01:34:16,333 challenge we like a little 954 01:34:16,333 --> 01:34:20,333 bit of challenge you know to you know 955 01:34:20,333 --> 01:34:23,500 achieve the goal and then spend you know 956 01:34:23,500 --> 01:34:25,250 time effort struggle 957 01:34:26,666 --> 01:34:28,791 and then be proud of what we achieved 958 01:34:28,791 --> 01:34:30,333 because if it's just a 959 01:34:30,333 --> 01:34:31,291 click on a button then it's just 960 01:34:31,333 --> 01:34:33,083 it's not interesting anymore it's not 961 01:34:33,083 --> 01:34:35,958 exciting anymore and my 962 01:34:35,958 --> 01:34:37,583 hope is that's going to happen 963 01:34:37,583 --> 01:34:39,083 in the future that people are just going 964 01:34:39,083 --> 01:34:41,291 to get bored and tired of 965 01:34:41,291 --> 01:34:42,958 it and that's when the human 966 01:34:43,625 --> 01:34:45,666 but again i'm like i'm a little skeptical 967 01:34:45,666 --> 01:34:48,916 i'm so i don't know one one 968 01:34:48,916 --> 01:34:50,416 way to think about it because 969 01:34:50,916 --> 01:34:54,375 and and and it gets um more and more 970 01:34:54,375 --> 01:34:57,166 realistic just exponentially 971 01:34:57,166 --> 01:34:58,791 it because it teaches itself 972 01:34:58,875 --> 01:35:02,041 it's it's just right right it's um but 973 01:35:02,041 --> 01:35:05,833 what happens um that if 974 01:35:05,833 --> 01:35:07,916 everybody can generate 975 01:35:08,041 --> 01:35:10,833 the perfect image with a click of a 976 01:35:10,833 --> 01:35:15,166 button um the the the 977 01:35:15,166 --> 01:35:17,250 value of a perfect image 978 01:35:18,333 --> 01:35:20,333 exactly that's what i'm saying like my 979 01:35:20,333 --> 01:35:22,208 images are suddenly not 980 01:35:22,208 --> 01:35:24,916 unique in a way anymore they're not 981 01:35:24,916 --> 01:35:28,666 there are hubs though but i hope you know 982 01:35:28,666 --> 01:35:30,000 a regular person who 983 01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:31,208 just scrolls and they don't 984 01:35:31,333 --> 01:35:32,750 they won't probably see a difference 985 01:35:32,750 --> 01:35:34,541 between ai generated and 986 01:35:34,541 --> 01:35:35,916 my work if suddenly my work 987 01:35:36,375 --> 01:35:39,166 doesn't have any value or me or interest 988 01:35:39,166 --> 01:35:40,666 and suddenly it's not oh 989 01:35:40,666 --> 01:35:41,916 how you made it it's suddenly 990 01:35:41,916 --> 01:35:44,500 oh it's probably ai and people won't go 991 01:35:44,500 --> 01:35:46,458 any deeper than that and 992 01:35:46,458 --> 01:35:48,041 won't look at my behind the scenes 993 01:35:48,125 --> 01:35:52,500 videos or and it's for me it's i don't 994 01:35:52,500 --> 01:35:54,541 know i hate it yeah no i 995 01:35:54,541 --> 01:35:55,958 can hear the i can hear the 996 01:35:55,958 --> 01:35:58,041 frustration i can i can only imagine 997 01:35:58,041 --> 01:36:01,000 because this is this this was something 998 01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:02,791 that and when you were 999 01:36:02,791 --> 01:36:05,666 doing this 15 years ago we could not have 1000 01:36:05,666 --> 01:36:09,250 predicted yeah i always thought like 1001 01:36:09,250 --> 01:36:10,416 addicted because it's 1002 01:36:10,750 --> 01:36:14,291 creative process that machines cannot 1003 01:36:14,291 --> 01:36:17,083 replicate i'm safe it's 1004 01:36:17,083 --> 01:36:18,958 really i'm not very safe i mean i 1005 01:36:18,958 --> 01:36:21,000 think that's i think that's kind of one 1006 01:36:21,000 --> 01:36:23,375 of the lessons here but i i 1007 01:36:23,375 --> 01:36:26,916 think um and you know i don't 1008 01:36:26,916 --> 01:36:30,083 know if this is a direction to go but um 1009 01:36:30,083 --> 01:36:32,000 i think you're selling 1010 01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:35,208 yourself short when um when you're 1011 01:36:35,333 --> 01:36:38,125 comparing like when you're when you're 1012 01:36:38,125 --> 01:36:39,958 letting that comparison get 1013 01:36:39,958 --> 01:36:41,958 to you so much because that 1014 01:36:41,958 --> 01:36:45,541 is just like one superficial layer you 1015 01:36:45,541 --> 01:36:47,750 know so yes so somebody's scrolling 1016 01:36:47,750 --> 01:36:49,125 through instagram and seeing 1017 01:36:49,500 --> 01:36:52,416 your surreal images you know and and then 1018 01:36:52,416 --> 01:36:56,583 seeing uh ai images um one 1019 01:36:56,583 --> 01:36:58,083 thing and ai is getting a 1020 01:36:58,125 --> 01:37:02,500 little better but ai uh what's going to 1021 01:37:02,500 --> 01:37:05,291 become very clear is that 1022 01:37:05,291 --> 01:37:09,125 when everybody can uh generate 1023 01:37:09,250 --> 01:37:11,250 whatever image they want with a click of 1024 01:37:11,250 --> 01:37:13,958 a button and that becomes something 1025 01:37:13,958 --> 01:37:15,333 that's sort of normalized 1026 01:37:16,125 --> 01:37:19,041 what's going to stand out again is the 1027 01:37:19,041 --> 01:37:23,625 aesthetic of an artist your eye you know 1028 01:37:23,625 --> 01:37:25,375 your your sensitivity 1029 01:37:25,833 --> 01:37:31,125 to color your talent of storytelling um 1030 01:37:31,125 --> 01:37:33,750 of of having a concept an 1031 01:37:33,750 --> 01:37:37,000 idea and um you know and and 1032 01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:39,041 that there's something about like the 1033 01:37:39,041 --> 01:37:41,416 physicality of the props and there's 1034 01:37:41,416 --> 01:37:42,500 something about the fact 1035 01:37:42,500 --> 01:37:44,333 that it's a real location and a real 1036 01:37:44,333 --> 01:37:45,333 human being that you're 1037 01:37:45,333 --> 01:37:49,791 working with that um right now it's 1038 01:37:49,958 --> 01:37:53,416 it's something that was always part of 1039 01:37:53,416 --> 01:37:56,208 the image but i think that 1040 01:37:56,208 --> 01:37:58,333 might start to bubble up to the 1041 01:37:58,333 --> 01:38:05,291 surface because the the surreal um you 1042 01:38:05,291 --> 01:38:07,416 know seamless integration 1043 01:38:07,416 --> 01:38:08,916 that photoshop allowed you to do 1044 01:38:08,916 --> 01:38:11,416 that's that's going to start to like not 1045 01:38:11,416 --> 01:38:13,625 be as important but some of 1046 01:38:13,625 --> 01:38:14,833 the other things are always 1047 01:38:14,916 --> 01:38:19,166 going to be there and um ai is a great 1048 01:38:19,166 --> 01:38:21,208 tool but it can't replace human 1049 01:38:21,208 --> 01:38:23,375 imagination and creativity 1050 01:38:23,500 --> 01:38:25,708 i hope so i hope you're right but this is 1051 01:38:25,708 --> 01:38:26,458 the struggle and 1052 01:38:26,458 --> 01:38:28,250 frustration i'm going through right 1053 01:38:28,291 --> 01:38:31,583 now and struggling a lot with 1054 01:38:31,583 --> 01:38:34,333 inspirations and moving forward and 1055 01:38:34,333 --> 01:38:36,375 that's you know i i didn't 1056 01:38:36,458 --> 01:38:40,750 intend to like go there but i was curious 1057 01:38:40,750 --> 01:38:42,208 because your image 1058 01:38:42,208 --> 01:38:45,041 your images like the um 1059 01:38:45,416 --> 01:38:48,041 what what i get from the images like once 1060 01:38:48,041 --> 01:38:49,666 you get over there like wow 1061 01:38:49,666 --> 01:38:51,541 how did she do that like once 1062 01:38:51,541 --> 01:38:53,833 you get over that and people in the 1063 01:38:53,833 --> 01:38:55,791 future are not going to be stuck with 1064 01:38:55,791 --> 01:38:57,333 that wow how did she do 1065 01:38:57,333 --> 01:38:59,916 that because you know they they will 1066 01:38:59,916 --> 01:39:01,541 probably assume it's ai but 1067 01:39:01,541 --> 01:39:03,875 when when you get past that 1068 01:39:04,666 --> 01:39:08,458 you still have an incredible image and an 1069 01:39:08,458 --> 01:39:10,416 incredible body of work and an incredible 1070 01:39:10,458 --> 01:39:12,958 like storytelling and and everything else 1071 01:39:12,958 --> 01:39:14,083 and you are using real 1072 01:39:14,083 --> 01:39:19,083 people so um i think your art 1073 01:39:19,458 --> 01:39:22,458 is still there and i hope i get to talk 1074 01:39:22,458 --> 01:39:24,125 to you again in however 1075 01:39:24,125 --> 01:39:25,750 long it takes for you to sort 1076 01:39:25,750 --> 01:39:28,208 of like have the next breakthrough 1077 01:39:28,208 --> 01:39:29,666 because i know it's coming 1078 01:39:29,666 --> 01:39:33,416 like you took a leap of faith 1079 01:39:33,666 --> 01:39:38,166 and the cards were stacked against you so 1080 01:39:38,166 --> 01:39:41,916 much more in 2014 when you 1081 01:39:41,916 --> 01:39:43,250 you know just packed your 1082 01:39:43,250 --> 01:39:46,125 bags and moved to new york without a job 1083 01:39:46,125 --> 01:39:47,833 without a clue of what 1084 01:39:47,833 --> 01:39:53,000 happens next and um so i'm i'm 1085 01:39:53,000 --> 01:39:56,500 really excited to see what comes next for 1086 01:39:56,500 --> 01:39:59,791 you even though it feels really dark 1087 01:39:59,791 --> 01:40:02,416 right now um so and i 1088 01:40:02,458 --> 01:40:05,458 i hope i'm not like overstepping here but 1089 01:40:05,458 --> 01:40:07,000 no it's fine thank you so 1090 01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:10,458 much my my usual sort of like 1091 01:40:10,583 --> 01:40:14,125 question that i would ask is how would 1092 01:40:14,125 --> 01:40:16,458 you define success um and 1093 01:40:16,458 --> 01:40:18,625 it just feels maybe a little 1094 01:40:19,500 --> 01:40:23,041 not the right question to ask um in a 1095 01:40:23,041 --> 01:40:24,333 time when you're sort of 1096 01:40:24,333 --> 01:40:26,250 like trying to figure out what's 1097 01:40:26,291 --> 01:40:30,250 next um but maybe a different question i 1098 01:40:30,250 --> 01:40:33,416 can ask is as as a person who's creative 1099 01:40:34,500 --> 01:40:39,000 who has searched for a creative um form 1100 01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:41,791 of expression and you 1101 01:40:41,791 --> 01:40:44,083 know strongly embraced one 1102 01:40:44,125 --> 01:40:47,458 and has been producing a creative body of 1103 01:40:47,458 --> 01:40:51,125 work that's meaningful all these years um 1104 01:40:51,625 --> 01:40:55,875 how do you stay how do you stay creative 1105 01:40:55,875 --> 01:40:56,583 how do you stay 1106 01:40:56,583 --> 01:41:01,583 inspired even now it's hard 1107 01:41:02,125 --> 01:41:07,541 i'm gonna be honest it's hard um i don't 1108 01:41:07,541 --> 01:41:08,833 know i guess it's just 1109 01:41:08,916 --> 01:41:12,458 at this point when i'm you know trying to 1110 01:41:12,458 --> 01:41:13,541 figure out what's next 1111 01:41:13,541 --> 01:41:16,750 for me um the thought that 1112 01:41:17,250 --> 01:41:23,333 that this is now such a big huge part of 1113 01:41:23,333 --> 01:41:25,500 my life this is who i am 1114 01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:28,375 um i'm a photographer uh 1115 01:41:29,125 --> 01:41:31,125 i'm a digital artist whatever you want to 1116 01:41:31,125 --> 01:41:34,291 call it i've been doing 1117 01:41:34,291 --> 01:41:37,000 this for 15 years now almost 1118 01:41:37,875 --> 01:41:41,791 i can't just throw it all away i can't 1119 01:41:41,791 --> 01:41:42,958 it's just i can't even 1120 01:41:42,958 --> 01:41:44,000 think about it like how 1121 01:41:44,500 --> 01:41:48,375 let's just imagine that i would like to 1122 01:41:48,375 --> 01:41:50,916 quit for a second right i can't imagine 1123 01:41:50,916 --> 01:41:52,083 like what am i going 1124 01:41:52,083 --> 01:41:55,041 to do then like what what what else what 1125 01:41:55,041 --> 01:41:56,291 else because this is me 1126 01:41:56,291 --> 01:41:58,958 you know so i think this 1127 01:41:58,958 --> 01:42:02,333 thought keeps what keeps me going um and 1128 01:42:02,333 --> 01:42:03,750 i'm just trying to you know 1129 01:42:03,750 --> 01:42:06,000 like process that everything 1130 01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:08,625 has been going on the fast the last 1131 01:42:08,625 --> 01:42:10,000 couple of years and just 1132 01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:12,083 you know like think about like 1133 01:42:12,333 --> 01:42:14,500 think about like maybe i should you know 1134 01:42:14,500 --> 01:42:15,583 take a little bit of 1135 01:42:15,583 --> 01:42:17,791 different direction or maybe i just 1136 01:42:17,791 --> 01:42:23,083 you know like stay and like i said 1137 01:42:23,083 --> 01:42:25,208 photoshop was always like looked like 1138 01:42:25,208 --> 01:42:26,375 frowned upon and suddenly 1139 01:42:26,375 --> 01:42:29,833 it's cool again or like maybe you're as a 1140 01:42:29,833 --> 01:42:30,833 traditional painter 1141 01:42:30,833 --> 01:42:32,625 you were like oh nobody's 1142 01:42:32,625 --> 01:42:34,625 interested everybody went digital but now 1143 01:42:34,625 --> 01:42:36,208 suddenly traditional painters 1144 01:42:36,208 --> 01:42:38,250 what's the most valuable now 1145 01:42:38,916 --> 01:42:42,208 so maybe we just have to like wait and 1146 01:42:42,208 --> 01:42:43,875 see where it takes us and 1147 01:42:43,875 --> 01:42:46,375 not not give up in the process 1148 01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:49,333 so i think that's what keeps me going and 1149 01:42:49,333 --> 01:42:51,500 um just having these 1150 01:42:51,500 --> 01:42:53,125 conversations help you know 1151 01:42:53,541 --> 01:42:58,541 meaning among creatives and be among your 1152 01:42:58,541 --> 01:43:00,250 colleagues gives me a big 1153 01:43:00,250 --> 01:43:01,833 boost on motivations usually 1154 01:43:01,958 --> 01:43:08,875 okay same same and um i it's yeah the 1155 01:43:08,875 --> 01:43:09,708 thought that you're not 1156 01:43:09,708 --> 01:43:10,916 alone i'm not the only crazy 1157 01:43:10,916 --> 01:43:13,083 person in the room that everybody else is 1158 01:43:13,083 --> 01:43:14,958 that really helps yeah 1159 01:43:14,958 --> 01:43:17,083 yeah absolutely and and and 1160 01:43:17,083 --> 01:43:19,500 it keeps happening you know i think 1161 01:43:19,500 --> 01:43:23,333 that's um the example i 1162 01:43:23,333 --> 01:43:26,166 like to give is how photography 1163 01:43:26,833 --> 01:43:29,500 when photography became sort of 1164 01:43:29,500 --> 01:43:30,958 democratized everybody could have a 1165 01:43:30,958 --> 01:43:33,916 camera how it changed 1166 01:43:34,041 --> 01:43:36,833 portraiture yeah because that's actually 1167 01:43:36,833 --> 01:43:38,208 true artists who like 1168 01:43:38,208 --> 01:43:40,750 made a living painting maybe 1169 01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,666 people looked back at me back then as now 1170 01:43:43,666 --> 01:43:45,458 people look at ai oh now you can 1171 01:43:45,458 --> 01:43:46,500 photoshop everything 1172 01:43:46,500 --> 01:43:47,791 you know have to be a good photographer 1173 01:43:47,791 --> 01:43:49,583 anymore maybe you know and 1174 01:43:49,583 --> 01:43:52,333 and and those you know every 1175 01:43:52,750 --> 01:43:57,000 time there is this advance technological 1176 01:43:57,000 --> 01:44:02,375 advance in the art it and 1177 01:44:02,375 --> 01:44:03,916 it you know it will replace 1178 01:44:04,208 --> 01:44:07,166 some things and it will replace some jobs 1179 01:44:07,166 --> 01:44:12,000 you know i i think that when photoshop 1180 01:44:13,541 --> 01:44:16,666 became something a tool because before 1181 01:44:16,666 --> 01:44:18,041 that there were people 1182 01:44:18,041 --> 01:44:19,958 whose entire career was 1183 01:44:20,583 --> 01:44:24,375 retouching photos right in the lab yeah 1184 01:44:24,375 --> 01:44:27,333 it used to be you know 1185 01:44:27,333 --> 01:44:29,541 the norm for commercial 1186 01:44:29,541 --> 01:44:31,208 photography and fashion photography 1187 01:44:31,208 --> 01:44:32,750 things got retouched 1188 01:44:32,750 --> 01:44:37,083 suddenly you know you didn't 1189 01:44:37,083 --> 01:44:39,416 and i feel like we're going through 1190 01:44:39,416 --> 01:44:42,833 another big paradigm shift in 1191 01:44:42,833 --> 01:44:46,666 terms of um a skill set that 1192 01:44:47,166 --> 01:44:50,500 um but it's it's a skill set and in your 1193 01:44:50,500 --> 01:44:52,333 case it's a skill set 1194 01:44:52,333 --> 01:44:55,583 that you have perfected and 1195 01:44:56,375 --> 01:44:59,791 has has been such an important part of 1196 01:44:59,791 --> 01:45:02,708 how your art is made and how how you 1197 01:45:02,708 --> 01:45:04,125 think of yourself as 1198 01:45:04,125 --> 01:45:10,291 an artist um um you know it's i i can't 1199 01:45:10,291 --> 01:45:11,541 imagine how hard it must 1200 01:45:11,541 --> 01:45:13,208 be to suddenly be replaced 1201 01:45:13,875 --> 01:45:16,291 so i'm not i'm gonna i'm not gonna you 1202 01:45:16,291 --> 01:45:18,416 know put myself above everything i 1203 01:45:18,416 --> 01:45:19,791 usually i'm not gonna 1204 01:45:19,791 --> 01:45:22,833 lie i use it like i use general as well 1205 01:45:22,833 --> 01:45:24,500 it's here to stay it's 1206 01:45:24,500 --> 01:45:25,875 here to stay and it's like 1207 01:45:26,041 --> 01:45:28,333 and it's let's be honest it's incredible 1208 01:45:28,333 --> 01:45:29,333 like if you think about 1209 01:45:29,333 --> 01:45:30,625 the technology is absolutely 1210 01:45:30,666 --> 01:45:34,458 incredible and i i can't fight it like if 1211 01:45:34,458 --> 01:45:36,625 i can make my editing 1212 01:45:36,625 --> 01:45:40,416 easier faster and better than i 1213 01:45:40,458 --> 01:45:44,041 would probably do it exactly and i i use 1214 01:45:44,041 --> 01:45:45,708 it i use generative film ai 1215 01:45:45,708 --> 01:45:48,458 and photoshop i sometimes i 1216 01:45:48,458 --> 01:45:50,500 would even use me journey to create like 1217 01:45:50,500 --> 01:45:52,250 mood boards or references 1218 01:45:52,250 --> 01:45:55,625 or some inspirations i use 1219 01:45:55,625 --> 01:45:58,083 chat dpt to help me with emails because i 1220 01:45:58,083 --> 01:45:59,875 suck at emails i i'm not a 1221 01:45:59,875 --> 01:46:01,916 writer i i suck at writing so 1222 01:46:02,375 --> 01:46:05,375 that's been a game changer for me and my 1223 01:46:05,375 --> 01:46:07,166 process hasn't changed so 1224 01:46:07,166 --> 01:46:09,541 i'm using ai not to generate 1225 01:46:09,708 --> 01:46:12,208 but to complement my process so my 1226 01:46:12,208 --> 01:46:13,416 process hasn't changed i 1227 01:46:13,416 --> 01:46:15,583 still go out there i still go on 1228 01:46:15,583 --> 01:46:18,583 location i bring my props my gear i take 1229 01:46:18,583 --> 01:46:21,500 a picture i come back to my computer i 1230 01:46:21,500 --> 01:46:22,750 open photoshop and i 1231 01:46:22,750 --> 01:46:25,208 spend our photoshop just now instead of 1232 01:46:25,208 --> 01:46:26,958 you know there's a good 1233 01:46:26,958 --> 01:46:29,083 example i talk about all the time 1234 01:46:29,416 --> 01:46:32,791 i had a photoshoot where i um put a model 1235 01:46:32,791 --> 01:46:35,375 in a costume of a deer she 1236 01:46:35,375 --> 01:46:37,333 had like antlers a little 1237 01:46:37,416 --> 01:46:39,875 ears the hoof shoes and she was wearing a 1238 01:46:39,875 --> 01:46:42,291 wig beautiful long curly 1239 01:46:42,291 --> 01:46:44,833 wig and um it had like a 1240 01:46:44,833 --> 01:46:46,875 fake hairline obviously it was pretty 1241 01:46:46,875 --> 01:46:49,458 obvious that was a wig so before that i 1242 01:46:49,458 --> 01:46:52,166 would spend i don't know 1243 01:46:52,375 --> 01:46:56,583 15 20 minutes needy retouching it now i 1244 01:46:56,583 --> 01:46:57,833 just circle it and i 1245 01:46:57,833 --> 01:47:00,083 type in natural hairline 1246 01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:03,208 and it makes me in a second and i'm like 1247 01:47:03,208 --> 01:47:05,041 i'm blown away and of course 1248 01:47:05,041 --> 01:47:06,333 i'm going to use it i'm not 1249 01:47:06,375 --> 01:47:09,583 going to be here like i mean i mean i 1250 01:47:09,583 --> 01:47:11,833 respect photographers who 1251 01:47:11,833 --> 01:47:14,125 are like no ai like zero i 1252 01:47:14,125 --> 01:47:18,375 respect that i mean good for you but um 1253 01:47:18,375 --> 01:47:21,375 well i image image 1254 01:47:21,375 --> 01:47:25,083 manipulation is part of your artistic 1255 01:47:25,333 --> 01:47:29,125 form of expression and i guess one way to 1256 01:47:29,125 --> 01:47:30,125 think about it like you 1257 01:47:30,125 --> 01:47:32,083 wouldn't use photoshop for 1258 01:47:32,458 --> 01:47:34,166 you know like you wouldn't use photoshop 1259 01:47:34,166 --> 01:47:36,333 from 10 years ago now the 1260 01:47:36,333 --> 01:47:37,500 tools have gotten better 1261 01:47:38,208 --> 01:47:41,833 and so in a sense like your tool set has 1262 01:47:41,833 --> 01:47:44,375 gotten better i think i 1263 01:47:44,375 --> 01:47:46,708 think it's the optics that's 1264 01:47:46,958 --> 01:47:48,708 that's the problem right now it's the 1265 01:47:48,708 --> 01:47:52,500 optics and for us artists who rely on 1266 01:47:52,500 --> 01:47:54,291 social media especially 1267 01:47:54,958 --> 01:47:59,208 instagram to uh showcase our art and and 1268 01:47:59,208 --> 01:48:03,291 so yeah we're fighting 1269 01:48:03,291 --> 01:48:06,708 with this plethora of 1270 01:48:06,916 --> 01:48:09,750 of ai generated images and in your case 1271 01:48:09,750 --> 01:48:12,166 it's it it really butts 1272 01:48:12,166 --> 01:48:14,291 into like the the look of your 1273 01:48:14,291 --> 01:48:18,000 heart but yeah um i i i feel like 1274 01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:19,666 something really amazing 1275 01:48:19,666 --> 01:48:22,416 is going to emerge from this 1276 01:48:23,250 --> 01:48:25,833 because you know i like your optimism 1277 01:48:28,041 --> 01:48:31,000 it has to because you have the drive to 1278 01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:32,375 keep making art you have 1279 01:48:32,375 --> 01:48:33,458 the drive to keep telling 1280 01:48:33,458 --> 01:48:36,750 your stories and creating your images and 1281 01:48:36,750 --> 01:48:39,958 um so before you're like 1282 01:48:39,958 --> 01:48:41,250 you want to be you wanted to 1283 01:48:41,250 --> 01:48:44,166 make art that like looked like nobody 1284 01:48:44,166 --> 01:48:46,458 else's well here you are 1285 01:48:46,458 --> 01:48:49,500 again you know you wanted to look 1286 01:48:49,666 --> 01:48:52,000 like nobody else's in this case though 1287 01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:54,666 you know that everybody else 1288 01:48:54,666 --> 01:48:58,500 is ai not my my hope is this 1289 01:48:58,500 --> 01:49:01,000 whole such situation is also what keeps 1290 01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:03,125 me going is that after a 1291 01:49:03,125 --> 01:49:05,625 while all ai starts to look the 1292 01:49:05,625 --> 01:49:08,958 same exactly all the same after a little 1293 01:49:08,958 --> 01:49:10,416 while that you like i 1294 01:49:10,416 --> 01:49:11,500 played with me journey a little 1295 01:49:11,500 --> 01:49:13,416 bit after a little bit it's just all the 1296 01:49:13,416 --> 01:49:15,250 same no matter what you do 1297 01:49:15,250 --> 01:49:19,000 plus i try to you know oh maybe 1298 01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:21,250 i can use it for like inspiration and 1299 01:49:21,250 --> 01:49:22,291 like you know like creative 1300 01:49:22,291 --> 01:49:23,541 direction so i would type in 1301 01:49:23,541 --> 01:49:27,375 something like create a surreal scene 1302 01:49:27,375 --> 01:49:29,666 with like girl and a huge cat 1303 01:49:29,666 --> 01:49:32,708 something crazy it never it's 1304 01:49:32,708 --> 01:49:35,458 not because it can only it is it does not 1305 01:49:35,458 --> 01:49:37,916 have imagination it creates 1306 01:49:37,916 --> 01:49:40,083 beautiful women in beautiful 1307 01:49:40,375 --> 01:49:43,083 settings but it never it's not it's not 1308 01:49:43,083 --> 01:49:45,125 storytelling it does not help me with 1309 01:49:45,125 --> 01:49:46,083 coming up with ideas 1310 01:49:46,750 --> 01:49:50,125 it might help me with like the look i 1311 01:49:50,125 --> 01:49:52,375 want to achieve but not 1312 01:49:52,375 --> 01:49:55,125 the story behind it exactly 1313 01:49:55,166 --> 01:49:58,041 that's that's exactly it like it doesn't 1314 01:49:58,041 --> 01:49:59,333 have imagination of its 1315 01:49:59,333 --> 01:50:01,291 own and it's in you know 1316 01:50:01,708 --> 01:50:04,458 yes it has this vast library of images it 1317 01:50:04,458 --> 01:50:06,541 can pull from but um 1318 01:50:06,541 --> 01:50:09,458 it's not a match for human 1319 01:50:09,708 --> 01:50:12,166 creativity and human i i really hope so 1320 01:50:12,166 --> 01:50:16,125 yeah but you know pulling 1321 01:50:16,125 --> 01:50:18,708 back and looking at the arc 1322 01:50:19,833 --> 01:50:22,000 of photography and the arc of image 1323 01:50:22,000 --> 01:50:26,291 making um i'm really curious how the 1324 01:50:26,291 --> 01:50:27,833 introduction of ai and the 1325 01:50:27,833 --> 01:50:30,666 fact that it like automates so many 1326 01:50:30,666 --> 01:50:34,208 things that we use to value 1327 01:50:34,208 --> 01:50:36,583 and they just lose their value 1328 01:50:36,791 --> 01:50:38,625 because you know that there's no effort 1329 01:50:38,625 --> 01:50:42,041 in it anymore but it 1330 01:50:42,041 --> 01:50:44,500 brings out it will bring out 1331 01:50:44,583 --> 01:50:49,375 other things that ai can't do at the end 1332 01:50:49,375 --> 01:50:54,000 of the day it it it can't create art it 1333 01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:55,208 can't replace the art 1334 01:50:56,583 --> 01:51:02,000 well i wish you luck i know it's it's 1335 01:51:02,000 --> 01:51:04,083 it's been a tough couple years three 1336 01:51:04,083 --> 01:51:04,916 years it's been it's 1337 01:51:05,250 --> 01:51:10,041 been tough it's been tough but um i'm 1338 01:51:10,041 --> 01:51:11,166 wishing you all the success 1339 01:51:11,166 --> 01:51:13,000 thank you so much thank you 1340 01:51:13,333 --> 01:51:16,375 and thank you so much for uh coming and 1341 01:51:16,375 --> 01:51:19,333 talking and being so honest 1342 01:51:19,333 --> 01:51:21,500 about your process and where 1343 01:51:21,500 --> 01:51:24,333 you are i think it's very important to 1344 01:51:24,333 --> 01:51:26,458 share to be honest and to 1345 01:51:26,458 --> 01:51:29,000 share what's on your mind not just 1346 01:51:29,166 --> 01:51:31,375 oh look at me i'm so talented and 1347 01:51:31,375 --> 01:51:33,000 successful because that 1348 01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:35,041 doesn't help anybody like no i 1349 01:51:35,083 --> 01:51:37,125 i want to know that i'm not the only one 1350 01:51:37,125 --> 01:51:39,583 who struggled who goes 1351 01:51:39,583 --> 01:51:42,333 through these things and 1352 01:51:42,750 --> 01:51:46,291 it really helps so i think for me like i 1353 01:51:46,291 --> 01:51:48,208 i like highlighting uh 1354 01:51:48,208 --> 01:51:50,208 successes and you know like the 1355 01:51:50,208 --> 01:51:53,333 pivotal points where like you find your 1356 01:51:53,333 --> 01:51:54,916 success you find your voice 1357 01:51:54,916 --> 01:51:57,000 you find a direction i like 1358 01:51:57,000 --> 01:51:59,500 highlighting those because that kind of 1359 01:51:59,500 --> 01:52:01,708 optimism is something that drives me 1360 01:52:01,708 --> 01:52:02,833 forward and i feel it's 1361 01:52:03,500 --> 01:52:06,125 you know you hear stories and each story 1362 01:52:06,125 --> 01:52:10,750 is so so unique um and my 1363 01:52:10,750 --> 01:52:12,583 hope is what it what it says 1364 01:52:12,583 --> 01:52:16,250 is that there isn't just one way to do 1365 01:52:16,250 --> 01:52:19,125 things um and you know 1366 01:52:19,125 --> 01:52:20,583 you have to trust yourself 1367 01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:23,916 but in at the same time uh the other the 1368 01:52:23,916 --> 01:52:26,625 flip side of it is that uh 1369 01:52:26,625 --> 01:52:28,500 being a creative being an 1370 01:52:28,541 --> 01:52:31,750 artist you're there's also those times 1371 01:52:31,750 --> 01:52:36,041 when you're blocked when um 1372 01:52:36,041 --> 01:52:38,458 what you're doing is no longer 1373 01:52:38,458 --> 01:52:41,375 relevant or in the life choices yes 1374 01:52:41,375 --> 01:52:44,458 questioning everything and um 1375 01:52:44,458 --> 01:52:49,125 and that is such part of the 1376 01:52:49,125 --> 01:52:52,666 creative journey it really is it's always 1377 01:52:52,666 --> 01:52:53,458 part of the creative 1378 01:52:53,458 --> 01:52:56,375 journey and um yeah i feel like 1379 01:52:56,500 --> 01:52:59,125 the creative journey looks like exactly 1380 01:52:59,125 --> 01:53:01,250 ups and downs ups and downs 1381 01:53:01,250 --> 01:53:03,583 yeah yeah but it's you know at 1382 01:53:03,583 --> 01:53:05,416 the end of the day it's your it's your 1383 01:53:05,416 --> 01:53:11,291 story and it's your art and maybe uh how 1384 01:53:11,291 --> 01:53:12,916 you make it will have 1385 01:53:13,708 --> 01:53:17,583 change we will all have to adopt i guess 1386 01:53:17,583 --> 01:53:20,583 we do we do and um 1387 01:53:20,583 --> 01:53:24,333 yeah so thank you so much 1388 01:53:25,000 --> 01:53:27,291 yeah thank you so much for having me and 1389 01:53:27,291 --> 01:53:29,958 for this conversation thanks again for 1390 01:53:29,958 --> 01:53:31,083 tuning in that's our 1391 01:53:31,083 --> 01:53:33,416 episode i hope you enjoyed it and if you 1392 01:53:33,416 --> 01:53:35,250 did please help us out by 1393 01:53:35,250 --> 01:53:37,166 leaving a review a comment 1394 01:53:37,333 --> 01:53:39,958 subscribing sharing it with your friends 1395 01:53:39,958 --> 01:53:41,166 every little bit helps 1396 01:53:41,166 --> 01:53:42,666 and i really appreciate it 1397 01:53:43,000 --> 01:53:45,583 and before we go i want to give a huge 1398 01:53:45,583 --> 01:53:47,458 shout out to our sponsor and 1399 01:53:47,458 --> 01:53:49,791 producer art storefronts if 1400 01:53:49,875 --> 01:53:51,416 you've been thinking about turning your 1401 01:53:51,416 --> 01:53:53,791 art into a real business or just want to 1402 01:53:53,791 --> 01:53:54,708 level up your online 1403 01:53:54,750 --> 01:53:57,416 presence now is honestly the best time 1404 01:53:57,416 --> 01:53:59,541 especially with the holiday selling 1405 01:53:59,541 --> 01:54:01,250 season coming up in q4 1406 01:54:01,875 --> 01:54:03,958 i can't stress this enough art 1407 01:54:03,958 --> 01:54:06,458 storefronts isn't just a website builder 1408 01:54:06,458 --> 01:54:08,250 they're a full-blown partner 1409 01:54:08,250 --> 01:54:10,458 for your art business they give you the 1410 01:54:10,458 --> 01:54:11,750 tools education and 1411 01:54:11,750 --> 01:54:13,666 marketing support to actually make 1412 01:54:13,666 --> 01:54:16,416 sales not just sit online and hope and if 1413 01:54:16,416 --> 01:54:17,208 you're unsure whether 1414 01:54:17,208 --> 01:54:18,625 your art will sell no worries 1415 01:54:19,250 --> 01:54:21,625 just head to artstorefronts.com and sign 1416 01:54:21,625 --> 01:54:23,208 up for a demo they'll give 1417 01:54:23,208 --> 01:54:24,875 you a free art review and a 1418 01:54:24,875 --> 01:54:26,916 marketing assessment of your art to show 1419 01:54:26,916 --> 01:54:28,291 you exactly what's possible 1420 01:54:28,291 --> 01:54:30,500 so go to artstorefronts.com 1421 01:54:30,916 --> 01:54:32,958 tell them java sent you and i'll catch 1422 01:54:32,958 --> 01:54:34,166 you on the next episode