Warning.

The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers, Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a disastrous late night pizza party.

Also, astrology.

Sensitive listeners, keep your TUMS handy.

Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show, and this time it's about Hulk Hogan.

This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling.

As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan.

And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan.

But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on.

This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember.

The President wants to speak with you.

Yes, Sir.

Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down.

In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes.

The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired not long after the Challenger disaster.

Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler in space?

I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than the combat one.

I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan can pry open a cargo bay door?

Because I mean, I know he's strong.

But even in cartoon form, this seemed dumb.

And I was seven at the time.

But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they were doing something to help calm kids nerves.

And I want to say something to the school children of America.

I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes painful things like this happen.

That's the actual Ronald Reagan.

The day after the Challenger exploded, our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom so the President could talk to us directly.

It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.

It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons.

The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted.

It belongs to the brave.

The future belongs to the brave.

Those words embody America right?

And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating, so visible...

Anyway, what does any of this have to do with us?

Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future.

That's right, I'm talking about astrology.

And it turns out, in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal in the Reagan White House.

I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it.

Do you believe in it?

What?

Do YOU believe in it.

From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur.

Welcome to Skyline Drive CHAPTER ONE: WHEN GOD'S POWERFUL WORD CAME

Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.

A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages.

My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.

The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable.

Like, frustratingly unknowable.

When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen years interviewing and shadowing Reagan.

But when he turned in his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.

And when he was asked why he did that with his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly one of the strangest men who ever lived.

Nobody around him understood him.

Every person I interviewed, almost without exception, eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure him out." Think about that.

Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't figure out how to accurately write about the man and what he stood for.

And maybe that's why my mom and dad had such different opinions of Reagan.

To my dad, a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could make it in America-- an actor becoming president.

I mean, that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed his son's potential was limitless in this new land.

But to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies, Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more, because it made him more like us.

And Reagan's interest in astrology was just this thing I always knew about growing up.

But as I grew older, I began to question it.

Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to be true.

So I asked my pal Mary if she could find anything more concrete about this whole story.

Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted to ask you.

I feel really lucky to have you in this project, but I'm curious why you did it because you don't believe in astrology.

Um, well, you're very persuasive.

I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and I'm laughing because it's true.

Mary was not convinced when I pitched this to her.

But I can, I can learn about things without believing in them.

I figured it's an opportunity to go down a path I would not ordinarily go down.

Do you know what your sign is?

I found out, I'm a Cancer.

I thought I was a Gemini.

Turns out I'm a Cancer.

So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and then I said, hey, I really want to look into Ronald Reagan.

You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much as I like astrology.

I grew up being terrified of Ronald Reagan.

I remember being like three years old and seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened.

Um.

My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during the eighties, so I had a very different experience.

Um, so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology.

That didn't really make any sense.

And so that was why I figured it would be really interesting to find out what actually happened.

So like, what was the sort of controversy that that made everyone suddenly start talking about it?

So this is really juicy.

There's this guy, Don Regan who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan.

And he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a long time.

He was Treasury Secretary.

He was like the architect of Reaganomics.

And then he became chief of staff and he left the White House.

He got kicked out and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.

And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book called For the Record.

And apparently he got a million dollar advance, which was huge money at the time.

Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from a friend.

Quote quote.

He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this.

And the press went crazy when they found this out.

Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat?

Or is it all a load of Taurus?

With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was "I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it was more like, "I am not a nut." Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon as a story like that?

Yeah, [laughs] it is.

I consider that-- it's just it's too good, too good to be true.

There's a Reagan library.

They have archives, and I thought, well, maybe there's something in there about astrology.

Turns out they actually have a finding aid labeled astrology.

Oh really?

Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch on the scandal.

I asked them if I could see them, and they said that they would have to take some time to take all the staples out, but then they could scan them and send them to me.

And a lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons from when it came out.

Really?

Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed.

All the reporters wanted to talk about was astrology.

What is the deal?

What you know?

Are they just deciding everything based on this?

You know?

What can you tell us?

And they didn't want to answer.

But what I thought was really fascinating was they had saved all of this correspondence from the religious right.

Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.

Mmhhh.

Evangelical Christians do not like astrology.

This is at the height of the controversy.

From Don Regan's book, this radio preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans, wrote directly to the White House.

"Dear Mr President, You've been a great chief of State.

You will recall how in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself there in your Sacramento home.

When God's powerful word came you were to become president of the United States.

This may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord of any president in history.

You were handpicked for leadership in one of our nation's most pivotal hours." No pressure, right?

And so he was saying, "I beg you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House.

To make a statement now would be an act of courage and pleasing to God.

But if you fail to do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set our nation on a collision course with God."

I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle when I hear things like this.

There is such hypocrisy in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as a country.

Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because God told him, that is totally okay.

Western miracles don't bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction, that's blasphemy.

It just feels silly that a president should be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but threatened for believing in the other.

It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid, totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was allowed to be president.

The fact that I was born brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable.

It seemingly crippled my chances from the start.

I mean, the Indian kids who were ten years older than me and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's, they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their names along the way.

You know, I wish I could tell you I had the sun to epiphany.

There was no moment on that road to Damascus where it was that easy for me.

Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed a connection, and so no political pressure should never change a person.

I am my parents daughter.

Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan.

Because even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American mascot

For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make America great again.

By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that doesn't feel American at all.

So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden.

Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir?

[boos] Knock it off, man!

This is not the man I watched in first grade

You asked for it.

I can’t, because I never did.

reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is always progress.

I mean, this man is struggling.

Like, listen to this from May seventeenth.

This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our lives to this.

And I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it.

So right there, he takes a moment to make sure he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology.

And then a reporter pounces.

Do you believe in it?

What?

Do YOU believe in it.

I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not.

Belief is hard to talk about.

It's confusing.

Sometimes belief is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence.

Like it's not some hard and fast tenets.

I mean, you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians.

Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore.

Except Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely played a role in his daily and his political life.

And you don't have to take our word for it, you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography.

So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break.

CHAPTER TWO: WHAT WOULD NANCY DO?

The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest in astrology was an open secret.

Or at least it had been.

Astrology was this California thing.

And it was also a showbiz thing.

And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter.

Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right.

Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal.

His odiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season.

Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.” As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine.

They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture.

Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice.

Then came the election.

In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967.

The timing of this did not make any sense unless you were looking at the stars.

It turns out that exact time corresponded to Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous.

When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story, he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately went into spin mode.

Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology.

The staffer even took it further.

He said Reagan was so averse to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope by accident, which obviously wasn't true.

But the craziest part of all this, like the reason we're talking about this?

It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's first astrology-related scandal.

But let's talk about Nancy.

When I started looking into this, the first place I looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear her side of the story.

It's called My Turn, and it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book the year prior.

And she basically disputed everything he said and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in the President's life, in her life, in everything.

And she said it was only minor schedule changes and it only came about because she was so worried for her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981.

And that she was driven to do this out of a sense of duty and guilt.

If you really want to trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help.

And it was her friend MERV Griffin--

Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune.

I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess..

Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to Joan Quigley.

Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate.

She was very smart.

She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family.

Initially, Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's lives because Nancy had asked her to do that.

As all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck to the party line that: well, no, I didn't have that much influence.

But when Nancy's book came out, I think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy." You know?

"It's me time, now!" She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right?

She was going to take advantage of it.

And so she started telling the story that in fact she had controlled everything.

It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing the Cold War.

But the question emerged: just how influential was she and how much did she have the president's ear on foreign policy?

But before we talk about Nancy's friend...

CHAPTER THREE: A SHORT AND INCOMPLETE LIST OF MODERN POLITICIANS WHO USE ASTROLOGY If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues, how would you feel?

Would you vote for an astrology believer?

We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask that very same question.

It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions.

Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise.

Absolutely not.

For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars.

It's just not politically correct.

But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not make him an outlier.

Here's a list of modern politicians who read their horoscope and checked it twice.

One!

Richard Nixon

Nixon was a quirky guy.

Not only did he ban soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup, but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who, to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK and the Reagans.

But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House, but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.

In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter terrorism unit.

Two!

Boris Yeltsin.

The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused this international incident because he left the White House grounds drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late night pizza.

This is true, which I can respect.

But Yelson was also an astrology head.

During his presidency, a naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a secret institute that employed "military astrologers."

Three!

Francois Mitterand

When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship.

And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia.

Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War.

Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think.

CHAPTER FOUR: WHAT WOULD JOAN DO?

If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment.

She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev.

As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev.

As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement.

The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt.

And so I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to go anywhere.

That, you know, for safety's sake, you might not want to fly on that day.

Maybe fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later, and that will be safer for you.

And nobody really had a problem with that.

Then it kind of shades into this thing of like, well, if he's not making a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right?

Because that affects what he's able to do as president.

And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart, that they should sit down and talk.

I mean that's really explosive.

Well, especially at the the time, right?

Like we are at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people are worried that someone will hit a button and cause the end of the earth.

Like that's-- the idea of talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.

People were very upset at the idea that this random astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so much at stake.

Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice?

Was this just going to his wife?

What was the deal here?

So that was sort of the other question.

Was this Nancy's fault?

Because everything back then was Nancy's fault.

She had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her helpless husband who loved her so much he would just do whatever she wanted

[static sound] Just a quick aside: Nancy Reagan was indeed ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious.

Jimmy Stewart once said that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would have won an Academy award.

And Reagan's aides admit this too.

They say that without Nancy there would have been no Governor Reagan, no President Reagan.

She absolutely took a lot of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne.

And so when this came out?

That it was Nancy's friend making these calls?

That was more evidence that she was actually controlling him.

CHAPTER FIVE: SYMPATHY FOR THE DEVIL Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan.

As he was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it six times in less than two seconds.

[News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire]

The first five shots missed their mark.

One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head.

Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line.

But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart.

Few people would know just how close he'd come to death

This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel.

Mrs.

Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital.

It happened early in his presidency on March, and the truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over.

In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph.

So in the scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much.

But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different.

Right, This was something she could ever ever forget.

As I was trying to sort through all of this and put Nancy in context, Mary sent me one more clip.

Ye, Nancy's appearance on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.

Can I ask you about the astrology?

You get tired of answering that question?

No.

That's one of the things, you know that, uh, when it hit the papers, wow.

I know.

If you're looking at the video, Nancy so clearly doesn't want to talk about this, but she will.

I know she's a trained actor.

I know she's good at playing the role of first lady.

But still hearing her say why she put faith in astrology, why she needed to put faith in it, Well, it breaks your heart where it breaks mine.

You can't, you can't really describe what you go through.

Uh, when your husband is shot and almost dies.

And most people didn't know that.

There were...

there were two times that they came to me and said they couldn't find his pulse.

Um, he was very close to going in the shock.

And if he had, then, that would have been it.

And not everybody has their way of of handling that particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma is...

it's, is very special.

And I talked to my minister, I talked to friends.

And then I had a friend called me and say, gee, they she he had talked to this girl and woman and, uh, she could have told me that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.

Right.

And I thought, my Lord, I could have prevented if you know, and um, so I called her.

I didn't think I was doing anything so wrong, and I still don't think I did anything so wrong.

It helped me through a very...

really, a very rough time, very tough time.

There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell their story-- the way they talk about astrology-- that doesn't really add up.

From the governor's oath to the idea that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident, to dozens of other inconsistencies.

Quigley had met the Reagan's before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign.

But none of that stops this part from being true.

Nancy was desperately trying to keep her husband safe.

That same year, there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II's life, Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed, and world leaders really were under threat.

Nancy's guilt?

It kicked in because of all this.

Like why wouldn't she try everything in her power to do that?

But there's changes that were made were things like, uh, would be better to leave at two o'clock or two-thirty?

I mean, you know, there wasn't any great and there were no political decisions ever made on astrology.

I didn't hurt anybody except I embarrassed Ronnie.

I was sorry for that.

It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore.

Because faced with the option to do nothing, or do something-- Nancy picked up the phones and worked them.

She found the best astrologer she could.

She color-coated her husband's calendar.

She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her husband out of harm's way.

And seeing the love she poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because I didn't do everything I could for my dad.

I really didn't.

Sure, I raced to see him, I tussled his hair, I kissed his head.

I dressed and shaved him.

I walked him to him from the bathroom when he was too weak to lift himself up from his chair.

I helped his frail body in and out of bed, and stuffed a pillow under his knees.

I pulled his socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm when he napped.

And I fetched his pulp mystery books and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachoes.

I sat in the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans, and I put chips of ice into his mouth just to watch him crunch at it and then smile.

And when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working, I signed his life away.

I ordered the morphine and brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe his last breaths at home.

I tried, I really did.

I didn't do enough.

I didn't pray, not the way my mom and sister did.

I didn't hunt for an Ayurvedic cure or research alternative medicines.

I didn't place a bet on the magical because my belief is limited to what I understand.

And I live with that guilt, not that there's any logic to it.

Because even if I didn't believe, my dad did.

And couldn't I have put aside my pride to give him everything because everything is what he gave me.

Next week on Skyline Drive, no more being sad!

Next week is 100% fun.

We are talking to Moneyball statisticians who use astrology, CNN's house astrologer.

They used to have a house astrologer, astrology and law school, and BTS.

That's right!

We're going to use astrology to figure out Korean Supergroup BTS's next steps.

Maybe?

I don't know.

I can't see into the future, but I can promise it will be fun.

Thank you so much for listening.

This show was written by Taffy Brodesser-Akner Executive crews Brodesser-Akner.

Based on a book by Taffy Brodesser...

I'm so sorry.

Thoese are credits for Fleischman's in Trouble.

I'm reading the wrong credits.

That's a fantastic show.

Go stream it after this.

This show: Skyline Drive, is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcast.

It’s hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur.

But you would not have made it to the third episode if all of these lovely people: Mary Phillips-Sandy is our congee-loving Supervising Producer!

And she’s now read every book in the world about the Reagans.

Go quiz her!

to my Amma and my Dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur, who I have to thank my lucky stars for.

Thank you so much for listening.