[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the lower-hounds and our special coverage of the PBS mini-series the American Revolution.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is our podcast on episode three titled Times That Try Mines Souls.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm David, I'm one of the main hosts of the lower-hounds and with me for this special project as always is Loremaster Brian 863 Brian, are you doing today?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm good.

[SPEAKER_02]: How are you?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So as we learned, all episodes are available for streaming.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you are subscribed to the PBS system somehow, I did whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, these are airing terrestrially on on your local PBS station.

[SPEAKER_02]: from as of what was it the 16th of Sunday until Friday the 21st?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, unfortunately we can both watch the streamed episodes so we don't have to stay up to the wee hours to get that's podcast out and we're kind of following into a rhythm of [SPEAKER_02]: doing the sort of the day after reflections, which is good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, these are going to be a little bit more different.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're trying to turn these around a lot faster to get them out the door.

[SPEAKER_02]: And these are more reactions than analysis like we do for a lot of the shows in movies that we normally cover.

[SPEAKER_02]: Once the series concludes, Brian and I.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to get together for a special series wrap up with our dear friend and favorite Tolkien scholar, Marilyn R.

Pouquilav.

[SPEAKER_02]: Listeners to the Lorehouse community, and we'll have heard Marilyn on any number of podcasts.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the great thing is not only is she, uh, [SPEAKER_02]: Tolkien in mythology and in history scholar in a sense she was a research librarian.

[SPEAKER_02]: So she has a lot of access to a lot of information and she lived in the northeast.

[SPEAKER_02]: So she's grown up in and around this history.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it'll be really fun to talk to her.

[SPEAKER_02]: Feedback for us on this will just be our generic email address, LauraHounds at TheLoreHounds.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got a piece of feedback email today which is great.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll read that in a second.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's good.

[SPEAKER_02]: And always, yeah, as always, you're welcome to join us on our Discord server.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a channel set up just for the American Revolution.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of conversation happened and really great.

[SPEAKER_02]: A very surprise to see all of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: People are really engaging with the material.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we are now moving.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're in high gear.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: As always, if you appreciate the podcast and you want to support us and all of the creators in our network, please subscribe, you can subscribe either on Patreon or Supercast.

[SPEAKER_02]: You get ad free episodes, you get a lot of our bonus materials, sort of our inside the community, stuff, movie club, things, and other podcasts and bonus podcasts.

[SPEAKER_02]: and it just helps independent creators like us be able to continue do what we do.

[SPEAKER_02]: As always, please rate and review the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you've got anything nice to say, we love to see that on Apple podcasts.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have a huge affiliate network.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've got a lot of other podcasts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Links for all of that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: are in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a link tree you go there and it's a little web page that has links to all of the the various things.

[SPEAKER_02]: Brian is a professional historian if you want to hear more about his background.

[SPEAKER_02]: Check out the intro for episode one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then Brian also brought us a template which we're using every show to think about the episodes so that we're not just sort of flashing splashing splashing around, but we have some structure to it Brian now that we've got all that intro stuff out of the way I try to really minimize it, but there's a lot of stuff we want to say so yeah, sometimes I want to speed run it.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've kind of fallen in this pattern of reflecting when we watch the new episode what we are reflecting on for the series so far in the previous episodes.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now that we've finished episode three, what are your thoughts on the series so far and any new insights into episodes one or two?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, uh, thanks David for once again for letting me on here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Letting it on.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Brian, I guess who else could I do that?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to do?

[SPEAKER_02]: And we are for, you know, we are John and I originally came from a community, Alicia, it was also in the community, you know, so, [SPEAKER_02]: It's just part of our nature to include our community in our conversations and deliberations.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I just am really appreciative of the fact that you are keen on doing this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think it's adding a lot to our community and to the kinds of conversations that we're having.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just laser guns and dragons, you know, but because I think we're more on people in this community.

[SPEAKER_02]: are people who are intellectually inquisitive and want to spend time thinking and talking with other people about the ideas that they encounter in the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of times we do that through our fictional media, but it's great to talk about some real history from time to time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of the lasers, we've got muskets.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that I'm thinking about as we move into three and looking back on two is that Burns is definitely in his element and what I mean by that, you know, I read a interview with him and he admits that this is a military history, which [SPEAKER_02]: is stamped with Vietnam, his series that was only, you know, a few years ago, and this here, a little physical media, you can see this that dear listener, but I'm holding up my copy of the Vietnam War 10 disc DVD series.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, and it follows the same pattern that we're seeing in this series where it's bringing more voices to the Vietnam War.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're seeing now as a move into three, he has developed the rhythm of battles using CGI maps, those images, some documents, reenactors, that for people who are fans of burns and as work we can really relate to.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so he's kind of in his groove.

[SPEAKER_00]: I see on the second, I'm moving into the third one.

[SPEAKER_00]: Deja.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I also will say, thinking back on our great conversation that we've been having on discord and feedback, is that it's, [SPEAKER_00]: You're beginning to appreciate and we'll see how much, you know, what happened as we go forward, the, there has to be a connection between what's happening in the military, what's happening in Congress.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have the political and you have the military.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and you can't have, you know, you can't have one without the other.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, or beginning to see that in episode two, as Congress is trying to figure out what to do to clear independence, but [SPEAKER_00]: George Washington is walking around with his uniform, ambitious, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So you've got that connection that I'm kind of thinking about as we look back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Got it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's interesting to see some of the comments in the discord.

[SPEAKER_02]: As people are catching up with watching, the nice thing about having an available is that people can watch it in their own time, which works in modern context.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do miss the mono event, you know, mono cultural event, kind of thing, all coming together.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of what we thought.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was going to be, so there's some flexibility for life.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's interesting to see what people are saying as they catch up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a bunch of the comments were about episode one, people were just like, [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, whoa, like man, like I didn't realize we're gonna speedrun that, but it was sort of necessary because as we talked about, this is about the American Revolutionary War, right, and not the seven years war or about any other topics social or, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: whatever, whatever topics you want.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is really, we're really now in it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as we see, the episodes are slowing down, the time frames that they're covering are compressing to tell coherent parts of the story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's like a mad sprint in the beginning.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then you slow down for a walk.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And interestingly enough, I was thinking about that, how much story was packed in.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then in the first episode, then in even in episode two, and episode three, there's show the density of material, and when we read this feedback, there's so much stuff that's left on the table.

[SPEAKER_02]: that they had to make editorial choices about what's important to the story that we're telling and what's important to that story, that moves us forward and boy, I can't imagine how hard it was for them to make those editorial decisions.

[SPEAKER_00]: That must have been extremely painful, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's her baby and no wonder it took 10 years.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you're recovering stuff from the where are the primary sources for this and how do you extract that information I was again looking I was thinking about the Vietnam War documentary I don't think I've seen the whole thing and now that I think about it I don't know that I've watched a Ken Burns documentary in quite a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean I know him I remember watching the Revolutionary War one all long time ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I can't think of the last time I actually engaged in fully engaged in a Ken Burns documentary.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I grabbed my physical media, I grabbed my DVD box, looking at it and I was wondering, how long is it?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I did a quick internet check.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's an 18 hour.

[SPEAKER_02]: uh...

documentary across ten parts ten minutes of staying entry and they had video uh...

you know they have you know they've uh...

photographic and film archives as well as contemporary newspapers and people who were still alive to talk about [SPEAKER_02]: those events and and triangulate on on what the circumstances and facts were of a number of different things that they would would have covered in there where this story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Man, like, you know, how do you do that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's what you do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, you're frying on your day job.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right, that's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're trying to constantly think about what you're reading, how it fits into the big picture of a story or a hypothesis, an argument.

[SPEAKER_00]: and in my case, I'm actually creating those documents doing oral histories.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we're basically creating those primary documents for people to go back years later to use for whatever they're working on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we want to get to the wrap-up.

[SPEAKER_02]: We should talk to you a little bit more about what your day job looks like on a day-to-day basis.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't I just [SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't make any sense to be set driven to quarterly sales, it's not, you know, it's not necessarily connected to how many widgets did we, you know, oh, we got to set up the new widget factory and so that like that's a whole thing, yeah, or delivering lines of code or what have you or this television show or, you know, these commercials that we have to put out.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'd be really curious to.

[SPEAKER_02]: learn a little bit more at what it's like to be a historian on a on a on a day-to-day basis.

[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe we'll do that in the wrap up pot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we did get a piece of feedback.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was really excited when I went at land of this morning.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is from Mama Chris.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how she signed off her email.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Mama Chris says, Good morning and thank you so much for covering the American Revolution.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also, [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having on one of my fellow historic interpreter professionals on your podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a low-paying low-things specialized skill job that doesn't get enough credit.

[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Momma Chris.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm right there with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: So continuing back in the spring, a PBS North Carolina and America 250 hosted Ken Burns in Raleigh.

[SPEAKER_02]: Raleigh Revolutionary War, Historic Site, oh I see what she's saying here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sites were also invited to show up in costume, do a small living history demonstration and be there for photos of [SPEAKER_02]: it was a very cool experience for us.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really disappointed that he has not that he is completely left out North Carolina's contributions to the revolutions and I think this goes into what we were just saying just now.

[SPEAKER_02]: The editorial process must have been excruciating.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, I wonder how much of North Carolina was on the cutting room floor.

[SPEAKER_02]: So continuing her email, he did not mention the Edmonton Tea Party.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: uh...

the first documented organized protest by women in north america he also left out the battle of mors creek a skirmish between loyalist recruited by florida McDonald to fight against the sons of liberty [SPEAKER_02]: And the big one, the Halifax Results, passed on the Results of Halifax Results, passed on April 12, 1776 by the Fourth Provincial Congress.

[SPEAKER_02]: The first of these actions authorizing their delegates in Philadelphia to vote for independence.

[SPEAKER_02]: The Halifax Results started the Domino effect that led to the Declaration of Independence.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is the reason why when you drive around North Carolina, you see signs and license plates that say, first and freedom.

[SPEAKER_02]: She goes on to say a couple more things and said I just, you know, sorry that this is the, well, let me read her email.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is a long and you don't have to read it on air anything like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course I do.

[SPEAKER_02]: We try to make sure we read everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just needed to get it off my chest.

[SPEAKER_02]: She says, I'm attaching a picture of me and my 18th century dress.

[SPEAKER_02]: I won't say which historic site I work at.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll let you guess Mama Chris.

[SPEAKER_02]: Mama Chris, thank you so much for writing in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and anyone else who wants to share just anything even just a snippet or a half-form thought don't worry about polish or co- you know the Spelling punctuation doesn't matter just you know sending a voicemail send in an email.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's absolutely great Brian.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can you guess where she works?

[SPEAKER_00]: My guess would be, I wonder if she works at in Halifax somewhere.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I only know Halifax.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a Halifax for Mont, and then there's a Halifax Nova Scotia.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, I didn't know there was another Halifax.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It must be a Halifax in the UK somewhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: I bet you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would not be surprised.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where is Hallot?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because a lot of those these names.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to are going to coming coming from.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so that we don't get they don't come for us with pitchforks and torches.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to look up the word Halifax really quick to see what I can find why don't you tell us a little bit more about the end to tea party, the battle of Morse Creek and the Halifax results.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, David.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mama Chris, you raised up such an important thing that I think we just speed-raced past.

[SPEAKER_00]: I vaguely remember Bern's saying a little bit about North Carolina, it's about all or two, and then they gave up.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the Edington Tea Party, October 25, 1774, [SPEAKER_00]: Mrs.

Penelope Barker organized a boycott of tea in response to the T Act of 1773.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in fact, this tea party was actually on the website.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did some Google's myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's on the Boston Tea Party.

[SPEAKER_00]: website.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So people know apparently know about this and because there is a strong tradition, a culture of tradition, even stronger than the middle states in New England in the South with Britain and the social structure of North Carolina and South Carolina, tea was a big deal.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's the kind of tea you had, the amount of tea, the higher the quality, so you want that [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so she, British tea, British tea imported by Britain.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, no, it's grown or hard to get the data packaged by British.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's, that's like, water.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll know, no, I mean, like, [SPEAKER_02]: It's British, the Britain doesn't grow tea.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're the mercantile aspect of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thumbs from somewhere else.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so true, right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the British, shall we say maybe the British Empire tea?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, the tea of the British Empire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, that was, you know, I guess the English kind of mocked the boycott, but the Americans, [SPEAKER_00]: call on us new about this boycott throughout all the colonies.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's very cool, very important there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we think too, when we talk about mythology and history, or the mythologization of history, when we think about what is one of the most high-profile civil rights moments that we have is Rosa Parks on the bus.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I believe there was another woman there and I believe that there had been all kinds of other protests.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this was not a spontaneous, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not not not saying anything about Rosa Parks or displacing her in a little bit, but there's a whole bunch of other instances of other kinds of protests and other people involved.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what happens is, [SPEAKER_02]: through the course of history, I'm not being authoritative about this statement.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying it's a downstream recipient of history.

[SPEAKER_02]: What did I get taught?

[SPEAKER_02]: I got taught one element of one part of the story.

[SPEAKER_02]: So somehow, somewhere through the process, there was an editing down of, and then presentation, [SPEAKER_02]: about one element of a very complex history.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then that's the totemic case that is used to, whenever we leverage story, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: This is the one leverage point of a part of the story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is one example, this is a powerful example, but it's only one example of maybe 20 or 50 things that we're going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and we could talk like an hour and a half on the history education in this country and the power of textbooks.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if you choose something in this area, Boston Tea Party usually makes the cut, but not the one in North Carolina.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe we'll talk a little bit about that with Marilyn as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn is listening and she's fiercely making a note.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's like, Oh, God.

[SPEAKER_02]: We gotta talk about another thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're loading up that podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: That might be our podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: That might be.

[SPEAKER_00]: That might be.

[SPEAKER_00]: That might be.

[SPEAKER_00]: We move on, doing this, we build up to the battle of Moore's Creek Bridge.

[SPEAKER_00]: This was February 27, 1776, and in the south, there are more loyalists than in the middle kingdom in middle kingdom in the middle.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the middle of the land in the middle of the east.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sounds like there were many loyalists in the northeast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: there was much stronger connection, less popular.

[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if that has to do to with, could be there could be some climate things, but it's also closer to the Caribbean and to the slave trade and the trade and enslaved peoples as well as that's where a lot of the commodities are being grown processed and shipped from.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you really have they were very dependent on the British trade more even more than up north.

[SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this there was like over 1800 forces.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's big.

[SPEAKER_00]: That actually fought in this battle and the British royal governor wanted to reassert troll the North Carolina so we got help from the British and got more loyalists and they they basically fought on that particular day.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: The Patriot commander opened fire with rifle and artillery and just blew the loyalists right out of the water out of that bridge.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a Patriot victory.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And because of that, it really kind of lit a fire for the second continental congress to say, hey, this we could do this.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is of actual pretty big victory.

[SPEAKER_00]: Gotcha.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm kind of reminded of Lincoln right trying to do the emancipation proclamation here to victory, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's like, Oh, well, let's see if we can get a victory and then I'll do this emancipation blockclamation.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, kind of a echo.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's kind of a a proof of concept.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's evidence that it's possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You got it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well said.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And finally, the Halifax resolves the local state legislature, the provincial congress convened in April after the Moore's Creek Bridge.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we have one thing on top of another.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: and they create a committee.

[SPEAKER_00]: They wrote the document and they handed it off to the North Carolina representative at the continental Congress.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that also helped spark debate about, yes, we can actually [SPEAKER_00]: create a declaration of independence.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can imagine it's definitely something that Jefferson probably would have read.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's part of that ether that he was reading and thinking about as he sat down in June of 1776 to write the Declaration of Independence.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a huge, important document [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and you talked, yes, in the previous episode about the power of written ideas.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And how they spread and how they were able to, it makes sense in a way, if you have a purely oral tradition, there's a fixed, not a fixed, there's a percentage number.

[SPEAKER_02]: of people who are interested, willing and capable of going out and reciting history, singing the songs, traveling the countryside to share the news, so to speak.

[SPEAKER_02]: But with a piece of paper, a pamphlet, [SPEAKER_02]: You can distribute and then people can read it in their own time, they don't have to go somewhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It is accessible.

[SPEAKER_02]: The information and the ideas are accessible in more, in exponentially more possibilities.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this spread of the idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can read it privately, you know, maybe it's safer to read it at a pamphlet point, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Instead of showing up and and you're walking by and there's a speaker on a soapbox and you stop to listen and there's agents of the, you know, of the king or whoever, yeah, sort of secretly writing down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Who's there?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, oh, you know, maybe you're going to get stitched up by, you know, later on, whereas you could find this pamphlet laying on the ground or, you know, in a coffee shop or something like that, you put it in your pocket and read it at home.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: you kind of like listening to jazz at night in, you know, communist countries during the Cold War.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, listening to radio, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: That was broadcast voice of America, poor one out.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it's interesting this spread of ideas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had a note later on and we can talk about it more a bit later.

[SPEAKER_02]: But pamphlets has the social media of the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember you writing that in our notes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's really well said.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was exactly that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we talked about it yet.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think I had it in my notes yesterday, but I don't think we talked about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't remember where it's all the blur right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I've got it again in my notes today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Perfect.

[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Halifax says it turns out that Halifax is a town in West Yorkshire, England, Yorkshire.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Yorkshire.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hi.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm an American.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, everybody.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, of course, there's a, it's a British banking brand and Halifax, Nova Scotia, and then there's Halifax for a month as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, well, let's move it along.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we're here to talk about episode three.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is entitled The Times That Try Minnes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I didn't copy it all off.

[SPEAKER_02]: It must've been, uh, where did it go?

[SPEAKER_02]: So it must've been souls, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: My cut and taste.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was short, I'm like cut and paste.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is covering the period of July 1776 to January 1777.

[SPEAKER_02]: over 20 years of history in episode one slow motion yeah so this is covering the battle of Sullivan's Creek the war in Cherokee country the Battle of Long Island Brooklyn sorry I'm just I'm being silly everybody the Battle of Kipps Bay the Battle of White Plains the Battle of Fort Washington Washington crossing the Delaware and then the Battle of Trenton [SPEAKER_02]: I want to share one thing really quick.

[SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, Sunday night, we were busy.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had a lot of stuff going on in the Monday night.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was on that business trip to Boston.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, tonight last night was the first night that I and my family, [SPEAKER_02]: were sort of in one place for dinner time, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I started watching it just because I was going to.

[SPEAKER_02]: My daughter was on the couch playing on her iPad playing her, you know, during her, she's a little a couple hours a day to do some screen time stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, I'll just watch it in the background, because I know nobody's going to object.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then we suddenly decided, well, let's have dinner in front of the TV.

[SPEAKER_02]: We only do that like one or two nights a week.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so let's watch tonight.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we watch as a family in my daughter stuck with the thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: The whole way through, she didn't get bored or something else.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it was kind of cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think we're going to do that again tonight for episode four.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exxon, that tells you something about how burns storytelling.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and she kept looking for references for Hamilton.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: So another thing that cropped up for me, too, was the the etymology of the word America.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is new to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is new to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have, you know, I haven't really dug in the weeds.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: As soon as you said that, it's like, okay, let me Google that as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what did you find?

[SPEAKER_02]: So this is based on internet searching only.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if other people have more authoritative or validated information, please let us know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the quick answer is that it probably, because it sounds like there may be some discussion about actually what happened, but that it's probably originates from the Latinized version of the name of an Italian explorer, Amerigo Vespucci, also known as America's Vesputius in Latin.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so it's a derivation of his name, a merry-go.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know I didn't dig much further than that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it seemed like there was some, it's not contradictory, but there's some other possibilities that exist that people have brought up.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it sounds like it might be related to this Italian explorer.

[SPEAKER_00]: nice yeah and looking at the internet's quickly he was he took on numerous voyages into yeah like Brazil and Central America okay some of the yeah some of the Caribbean even so okay he's early okay interesting all right so yeah if you if anyone has more information about that we'd write in and we can put that on our next episode [SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask you a question, David, because you lived in New York City for a while, and as you lived there, did you ever run across museums or exhibits, markers, statues of the revolution?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Hamilton of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: We last night, as we were watching the episode, my wife and I kept looking at each other because they would mention a location or a name.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my wife lived in your, for much long, we lived in Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: She was there much longer than I was.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was only there for a few years, but I felt very at home there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, [SPEAKER_02]: We were just constantly like, oh, oh, oh, like that name.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, kids.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was it was really The Goannas.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, do you make a play?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, oh, and yeah, it was very I had no idea where you just live with these place names.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, this is what the space is called.

[SPEAKER_02]: Goannas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Goannas can out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: No idea that it's a major about a revolutionary battle.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do remember when my daughter was young and I was in Prospect Park on a dad walk with our strollers or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: There was this one, part of the loop we'd always go by and there was like, there's like a big rock outcropping and there's a plaque there.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember stopping and reading the plaque one day that there was something about some battle that happened at this spot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was just like, oh, that's interesting and kept walking.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is amazing that if where you live, you know, the history's all around you, but you don't necessarily soak it up A lot of times until you leave.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah Yeah, or like I said yesterday when I was walking around Boston the other day I was seeing all these statues and all this other kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, hmm, who's that?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, it really made me question.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah [SPEAKER_02]: Great, great, thanks.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, well, why don't you run us through our questions for the episode?

[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect, all right, let's start it off.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what things stood out?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I think one of the things that stood out for me well, definitely the place names of Brooklyn and now I just as we talked about the idea why we're the colonizers so [SPEAKER_02]: And if I, you know, thinking about it, there's no open land in Europe left for anyone so they show up there and it's just open land and as far as they perceive.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's uninhabited, because they're looking for cultivation.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're looking for structure, mills, and bakeries, and roads, and farmlands, and orchards, and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas Native American populations had a whole different different pattern of living on the land.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not to say that it wasn't used, but they didn't see the evidence in the way that their framework would allow them to see it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they were like, this is open for the taking.

[SPEAKER_02]: There is no way back home I would have ever had this opportunity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that really stood out to me in this story is like, why are people so riled up?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I am always amazed.

[SPEAKER_00]: don't get too off track, but I'm always amazed.

[SPEAKER_00]: I always try to imagine the first generation for us that these colonies saw as they moved into these territories.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even, I guess, read the workwood trees maybe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, California.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, you'd have to go for old growth for us in the Pacific Northwest and on the west coast.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, some red woods, Olympics, and I don't know how much is really left of any old growth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have very few remnants of the of that all the entire eastern seaboard was logged flattened completely totally totally yeah yeah trees that you can't wrap your arms around yeah that's why here on these coast and it's like wow and it was used for firewood it was used for shipping shipping yeah you know timbers for building homes yes yeah they [SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's a really great, yeah, mind blowing, mind blowing, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I something that I think we both had in our notes was a done Kirk situation in Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking this same thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, people just coming out with their boats, whatever sizes, whatever shapes, just come on and get these soldiers, it's like, this is Dunkirk.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever you can float is down here and let's move us.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you think about moving field pieces and horses and all these soldiers with their rifles and their packs and everything canons.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, heavy canons.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I just, you know, across the Manhattan Bridge, across the Brooklyn Bridge or take the subway, you're just like, what, it's no big deal.

[SPEAKER_02]: That, the Mount that waterway, that is a fast flowing body of water right there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, is there's no easy feet, it is big, it is deep, it has a incredible flow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I can only imagine the effort that it took to actually cross that in a rowboat as it was.

[SPEAKER_02]: You stand on the down there, Brooklyn Bridge Park now, and you see the volume of water that's flowing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Man, I have no idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: what that would have been like.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, and they did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Some of these robots you did it back and forth, back and forth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's, it's really hard to imagine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think the other thing that stood out for me was the, you know, so many decisive moments were lost or wasted.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, the, that, oh, I forget the British General's name on the Battle of Long Island in Brooklyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: where they're like, how?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's okay, you know, let them run, we're gonna catch up to them eventually.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, you could have smashed them right there, same, I think on Manhattan, there was a couple of times where they could have just decapitated the loyal or the patriotic forces.

[SPEAKER_02]: And ended the thing, you know, in an instant, or maybe it was on the battle of Lake Champlain, there was, we'll talk about this again later.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they didn't pursue them.

[SPEAKER_02]: They were like, oh, it's night, it's foggy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we'll just have dinner.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then people slipped away.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's so many decisive moments that in the moment, somebody makes a decision that seems rational to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then on history and hindsight, we look and go, gosh, you could have finished the whole thing right here, right there and then.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and it's in part, it's, I think, a belief, at least by the British side, that they will fall apart on their own, they're done for, you know, they're going to be scared, they're going to be hungry, we will get them later, or they'll just fall apart.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting you mention that because for the thing that stood out, one of the things that stood out for me is a thought experiment.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's imagine that we're General Howell, so we're Commander of the British troops in Colonial America and, along with my brother, our brother, Admiral Howell, who runs the [SPEAKER_00]: How is that going to affect your strategy if you're both a general and a peace commissioner?

[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Am I going to go out and totally wipe out this force?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you've got to...

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think your mentality is like you're going to argue with yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Should I stop?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, don't stop.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got them on the run.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I should stop.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we, because we got to get a piece negotiation going.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's a good point.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a reason, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason there's diplomats, civilians versus the military.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just watching a house of dynamite on Netflix the other day, which is a very interesting film.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did you watch it?

[SPEAKER_02]: I did.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and the general is like, okay, you're the civilian.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're supposed to be thinking these thoughts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you need to make you're just, but I'm the general.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my job is to launch the missiles.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you're either going to tell me to launch the missiles or not launch the missiles.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not my job to think about the peace options.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not my job to second-guess what's really going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And think through the various, I'm just the guy that actually gives the, that make sure that the orders are dispersed and are being followed.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's my job.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if I try to get into a second guessing game about who did what and who or maybe who instigated something to blame somebody else or whatever, then I'm going to be ineffective at my job, which is to kill the enemy.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's what the military's job is.

[SPEAKER_02]: Kill the enemy, period.

[SPEAKER_02]: Go.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if you get into the easy more complex, then I think you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a really [SPEAKER_02]: ambassadors for the king as much as the the troop commanders that's a conflicting and then you bind it up with [SPEAKER_02]: aristocracy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Officers are parole.

[SPEAKER_02]: Then you treat them like gentleman and you have been Franklin and a couple of other folks come and sit down for a beautiful candlelight dinner that's probably very sumptuous and it's all very civilized and normal with wine.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this but this is the enemy, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're supposed to, you know, so it's interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't talk about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I've got a myth-bust myth-busting.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about mythology, what stands out for this myth is that George Washington is staying as it washt as a general on a very high pedestal and in this episode you really see that actually he's not a perfect [SPEAKER_00]: general, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he split his armies twice in New York.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, once but twice, which is a big no-no, and, of course, you mentioned that you make a pass, which is like, wow, that is huge.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you even have a little a picket line out there, or a little forward observation poster or something, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: So that you can see deploy, you know, if you saw a forces coming.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because there's all kinds of roses happening in these battles.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a normal part of what they would have studied in practice.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he should have been aware of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: History is our judgment.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were so lucky.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were so lucky in that battle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, smokes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then what had like I was saying before a missed opportunity, once they got across the Manhattan, they're like, it will get them.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's cool.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could smash them.

[SPEAKER_02]: You could have brought up a, here we are, really, to getting the war.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure this has been plenty of times, you know, brought up some ships to block off Brooklyn Heights and then you would have had [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think if the one of those things you'll mention later about luck, you know, there was just storm that delayed Apple Auto.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's on my notes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he could have done it just like maybe a day later.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot about the.

[SPEAKER_02]: I forgot that that's what was going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was that storm.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, what else?

[SPEAKER_00]: And finally, uh, a new generation of Native Americans.

[SPEAKER_00]: What a fight in this war compared to their elders.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you begin to see that little civil war of thought of a really difficult decision making in these tribes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do we fight?

[SPEAKER_00]: Do we negotiate?

[SPEAKER_00]: What do we do?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: Great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's dive into what did you like?

[SPEAKER_02]: I two things that I liked a lot in this were I'm really digging the CGI maps and the CGI representations.

[SPEAKER_00]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_02]: It it helps so especially that watching the battle of Brooklyn [SPEAKER_02]: seeing the terrain, but seeing the little town, seeing the all the way down the fields, it's very video gamey in some regards, but I think it just really works to display the end and like I said, I haven't engaged with the Ken Burns documentary in quite a while.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't remember what they did in the past or what he's done recently.

[SPEAKER_02]: So coming to a little bit fresh, I'm really, it's just a really helpful aid.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is, it is so, it's so good, so helpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: I, when I'm watching the series, I have an Atlas that the American Revolution in front of me, but those maps are just so much better.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that I found really, that I really like about this is in the, [SPEAKER_02]: in the voiceover narrations, and now it's like a little bit of a game if we can guess who was that actor?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that was Keith David.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that was, who are we here the other day?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we do bodies reading somebody else differently or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we watch the credits a little bit to see if we could pick some of the names.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just the eloquence of some of the [SPEAKER_02]: the word choices, the turn of phrase.

[SPEAKER_02]: They, not obviously not everybody, but the stuff that they're giving us, there's just an eloquence in the language we, we don't have anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, we don't, and that's really a great point that that was their main communication.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a skill that they lived right from the beginning as soon as they were writing and people would write letters, and that's just one of the joys of doing research in that time period of seven, you know, all the way until the modern era, these beautiful letters, just so, so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, you don't send an email with, without any punctuation, just one line of whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then emoji.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got it totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: What about you?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I enjoyed the story at the end about the boy returning to Boston to see his family.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, was it the fiverr?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he talked all the way back to me and I thought he walked all the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, kind of a cold mountain kind of experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know it's just amazing that I had to do a double take.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, let me rewind.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he did walk.

[SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was really a kind of a heartwarming story, really like that, and then I love the framing of the continental Congress on the main floor and the Pennsylvania delegates upstairs with a radical constitution.

[SPEAKER_00]: Scared Jesus out of the people downstairs, but that's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Freaks John Adams out.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like what what do you what are you talking about?

[SPEAKER_00]: So that was just you know using the picture the the window in the staircase I just all came together really really well.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that cool [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and the final myth-busting for me was the Hessians were not drunk at Trenton.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a pretty common myth that they were drinking and partnering because it was Christmas.

[SPEAKER_00]: But actually that was not true, which makes the attack even more impressive that they weren't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't realize that that was something that was out there as a belief about that, so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I'll put that down to my surprise.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm going to add a note there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, carry on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so to balance things out, what did you dislike?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can kind of go first while you're typing.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I didn't have anything [SPEAKER_00]: really in the beginning actually is we're doing our notes together but then I remember the excellent discussion on discord and I was talking I think with Marilyn about the fringes of the colonial uh the colonies so people places like out west but also in some of the Spanish colonies [SPEAKER_00]: like Florida, New Orleans, there's these little fringe places and one of the talking heads actually wrote an excellent book.

[SPEAKER_00]: The lost independence, I believe it's called, and I want to, you know, it's like, oh, I want, I want more of that, why don't you just kind of spread the, the picture out a little bit, and it's a little bit more would be even better.

[SPEAKER_02]: Got it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have much either, um, just that he hasn't mentioned Hamilton at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and I know he knows Lin Manuel Miranda, because in an interview that I heard with him, he said he was, you know, somewhere with him, and they're doing a big thing for our school kids around this, the show, and my daughter is sitting there in the couch and she's like, [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this is when Hamilton should have done this, he should have taken the cannons, you know, he should have saved the cannons in Manhattan, and then when he was with him there, he should have been, you know, doing the logistics and letter writing, and where's Lafayette, and on, and it's amazing to me that he has been able to lift out of the salient fax, [SPEAKER_02]: And she is now actively applying them to a software-rific documentary, like in Burns, but that's tracking it and going, okay, this is this point and I know this from this other source and I'm not getting that light, you know, I'm not seeing the connection between the two.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just again, editorial choices that they made, but I'm really surprised that there is zero mention of Hamilton because it would be [SPEAKER_02]: a great even just a little mention or a nod.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, would take all the Hamilton musical fans and light them up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You got pull them in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the magic of Hamilton.

[SPEAKER_00]: It really is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So shifting gears a bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: What surprised what would you want to know more about?

[SPEAKER_02]: There's this is where my list has grown a little bit and I think on the top of my list is the loyalist purges and tribunals that they were having.

[SPEAKER_02]: That sounds very scary.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: There are these.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we've seen this in other countries and in other times in the French Revolution, into China, in China, Russia, you know, all over the places that I didn't realize [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, I was kind of surprised and shocked by that, that the, you know, Patriots and the oil, like this would go down, that, you know, people were suspicious of each other and they were trying to purge and hold these tribunals to identify them and then ostracize them.

[SPEAKER_00]: was that the time they throw someone in the mind?

[SPEAKER_02]: That too, that's a prisoning, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then there are other times where they were just trying to find them and then purge them from society.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: It would run them out or imprison them or allow you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's part of that revolutionary element right where you have everything as those ideas are absolute and you could not have anything outside of that to threaten the revolutions.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to act and unfortunately, right, it becomes very violent and cruel and, uh, [SPEAKER_02]: And we see this tendency over and over again.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just thinking now about the camps that were set up for Japanese American citizens during World War II.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're like, oh, you know, we got a box.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's this tendency to purge [SPEAKER_02]: anything that might be a threat from within, whether that is from an intellectual concept or from a physiological outward appearance, well, you look like this, therefore, you're part of that culture, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: However, you do your assessment, this idea that you're trying to isolate and box up and remove from your midst.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_02]: The first rich scare or the MacArthur hearing you know, maybe there's a little pattern here, Brian.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's a pattern happening.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is.

[SPEAKER_02]: uh...

another thing that uh...

i was curious about was all the other activity that was happening on the west coast they there's a mention of rush uh...

and there was a mention of you know stuff on the west coast and in in in Mexico and in spain i was like okay so there's a lot of activity on the eastern seaboard and then suddenly there's a whole bunch of activity on the west and then he didn't say anything more about it i was like you know what yeah yeah yeah i [SPEAKER_00]: the Russians, I think, were moving around, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: They were, he all last.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he there's an, I remember seeing him and they're all in a map and moving across towards the West.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, wait a bit, wait, what, what?

[SPEAKER_02]: And then he's like West Coast and then Spain, Mexico, and then we go flick back and we're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we go back, go back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, rewind.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, hit the pause button, I was like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's the Revolutionary War, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not, it's not global history of the 1700s.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's, you know, this is a Revolutionary War documentary.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a couple more things, but why don't you go with a couple of others?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I want to learn more about women fighting as men.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just kind of knew there was some interesting picture of it, you know, a portrait and we moved on.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like that's really interesting because it happens as a civil war as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, really?

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, I want to learn more.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn more.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's we think of L and from Lord of the Rings.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Marilyn speaking to you here.

[SPEAKER_02]: Through the podcast, through the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_00]: Some vibes.

[SPEAKER_02]: That interesting on a note that I had to was sort of the when they did talk about and women were more present in the story of episode three.

[SPEAKER_02]: and talking about what was going on for them away from the battlefields, and having all the men gone, and I just had popped into my head, Rosie, the riveter of the revolution, right there, all women, women constantly step up and have to take on all of these, [SPEAKER_02]: chores and activities and processes that are normally coded as, you know, min's jobs, and suddenly nobody's around, no min around to do it, so we got to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's normal.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's fine.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're just people.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just do the things that need to be done, and then the min come back and then it's, you know, social strife there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm again reminded of, because I just saw this not that long ago, the movie Cold Mountain.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where do I think I've seen it ever?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, with Nicole Kimman and Jude Law, and she is kind of a, you know, elite person that, you know, test father dies and she has to run the farm and she didn't know how to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So she, she learns and is quite good at it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, when the Ben soldiers walk off, and literally walk off, it's just amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: How much territory they cover to watch wild, wild.

[SPEAKER_00]: They have to spend for themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a challenge, but they rise to that challenge.

[SPEAKER_02]: move out of Africa's on our list of movies that are being voted on by subscribers right now for our next 11th season movie club.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a case of a woman who has to take on a running a farm when she was equipped for that to stay off with.

[SPEAKER_00]: So.

[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What else you got?

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's it for learning more about.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any couple.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's like, what's this marble head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm going to forget the marble head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to learn more about the marble heads.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know about them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the group in I believe Massachusetts.

[SPEAKER_00]: John Glover, I think, is the Colonel 14th Regiment, and they were just amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were just amazing group of, you know, their skills were called upon.

[SPEAKER_02]: And oh, is this the forces that went out and yeah, okay, I mean, I missed part of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they worked, they were the ones who worked in Brooklyn and then the ones in trend.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, and that was a point that they made in the documentaries that anywhere there's water is where there's going to be battles basically.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's so much more efficient to load up your troops on ships for the British, the French later to bring them on in.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's just amazing story.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I definitely want to learn more about them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: A couple of things that we talked a little bit about this, but we talked about more pamphlets as social media of the day.

[SPEAKER_02]: There must be some scholarship and or documentaries out there about pamphlets.

[SPEAKER_02]: how they rose, but it tells me that there's no matter the form, the medium, the format, human beings want to communicate.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a magazine, it's a tweet, it's whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever the technology is that allows us to do it, we're going to communicate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And at that day, in that time, pamphlets were the thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there were printing presses, and pamphlet, great pamphlet wars apparently, between people, somebody would make a pamphlet, and somebody would write back, again, even in the Hamilton musical, there's some mention of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just can't imagine, [SPEAKER_02]: you know, there must be libraries full of pamphlets is as great research material.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, the sure is and the words are some ways you feel that in social media today, their weapons.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, use them against someone or a group and you find a lot of times [SPEAKER_00]: pamphleteers, printing presses are the primary object that mobs go after and destroy and burn.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, later it would be a radio station or TV station.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's one of the questions that you do if you're going to have a coup, say, is you take over the broadcast facilities?

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Communications is so just ingrained and just so social in us that it's just part of our DNA.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you just need to do mass communications.

[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: One, no, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this time period, uh, before the telegraph is just, it's just amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: How they could, uh, move these pamphlets and and complex ideas and I know that touch the hearts of men.

[SPEAKER_02]: So to speak, you know, to be eloquent.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I was as eloquent.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that they were inspiring and seditious if you were on the other side, you know, they were powerful things.

[SPEAKER_00]: They are extremely powerful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what's with what the pen is stronger.

[SPEAKER_02]: You might use the sword or yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, so true, so true.

[SPEAKER_02]: The last thing on my list was Abigail Adams.

[SPEAKER_02]: They dropped a couple of quotes from her in there and I was like, oh, you know, I kind of know the name, but I don't know anything about her.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that would be something fun to learn about is her a little bit more.

[SPEAKER_02]: She sounds interesting, but whenever I think of, so she's the wife of John Adams, but whenever I hear, [SPEAKER_02]: The name John Adams, this is what I think of.

[SPEAKER_02]: John Adams!

[SPEAKER_01]: I know him.

[SPEAKER_01]: If that come to be, that's that little guy who spoke to me, all those years and go.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a clip from the musical Hamilton if you haven't already seen it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just the way he says is, John Adams is just stuck in my head, so I had to play it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I had to fish that out real quick.

[SPEAKER_00]: Love it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But Abigail, Adam seems like a very interesting person.

[SPEAKER_00]: So she has, she has, she's one of the most, it's political and sightful person in the era.

[SPEAKER_00]: So really.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Go great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to shift our gears a little bit and talk about what surprised you most.

[SPEAKER_00]: and I'll start and so for this one I was really surprised by the Haitians prisoner of war treatment and I see you mentioned it as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's it I didn't know much about it all and the fact that they [SPEAKER_00]: we're living, you know, they were willing to give them lighter treatment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the fact that they were then going back home and then coming back, bringing their families.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were all my whole family and I was surprised by that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that was totally surprising.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this idea that their victims of tyranny as well.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was this motivating thought.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, [SPEAKER_02]: These four bastards, they got shipped halfway around the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're fighting for in some fight that they don't have any connection to.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so maybe, you know, maybe we'll change the way that we treat them and, you know, turn them an enemy into an ally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I had no idea to the level of hashtion involvement.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was something that I, you know, picked up from before was like, wow, this is actually like a really big deal.

[SPEAKER_00]: it is it is you know there's there's historians who talk about that even though [SPEAKER_00]: the British Empire had the strongest navy, and but actually their army was not that huge, and they needed, they needed help.

[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why they turned to them to bolster their roster, because they were pretty small, pretty small army.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and you know, you have marines on a ship [SPEAKER_02]: you have a certain, so you have a certain number of soldiery there, but you have a lot of ships.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that's a lot of able-bodied teamen that are not ground forces.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you have a small country.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have these competing interests on how many people, and you know, they used to have the press gangs and people weren't, it wasn't a, it wasn't a, not an all-volunteer navy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So the idea, yeah, you just didn't have enough able-bodied men to go around to serve both army forces in naval forces.

[SPEAKER_02]: So.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and that leads us to your other surprising moment, which is specifically in the Americans fighting for the British.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and and the Caribbean uprising.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: you had to take because you need a men, you had to take them away from the Caribbean islands, and that gives slaves opportunity to see what they could try to do and create some kind of freedom.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then this is one of my parts of the, what stories are, is Burns telling and what he's telling, [SPEAKER_02]: I know that I have here is just the fortunes of history turn on so many bizarre little twists.

[SPEAKER_02]: A young boy, a young enslaved boy emptying the pistol of his master is the thing that tips off the [SPEAKER_02]: the slavers that there's a rebellion fomenting.

[SPEAKER_02]: That could as altered the balance of power in there.

[SPEAKER_02]: So suddenly the British are fighting two fronts so to speak, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: There's two, you know, they have another major engagement that they have to deal with.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or [SPEAKER_02]: a storm that's right, you know, a storm that allows Washington to escape or fog on Lake Champlain.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's just so many little bizarre twists that could completely change the course of history.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all those little moments, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, so I think he's telling a really good story in that regard that there's these little things that could just, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: that we're here is very lucky or that Montreal is not an American city is a trick of a fate again, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And so all of that I think for me is coming through really well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nice, nice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, the kind of looking at it, episode is a whole, it's a great story of American [SPEAKER_00]: persistence, and like what you're saying, luck, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That they happen to be like in their Trenton, they happen to, you know, the fact that the British were just as strong out with lack of troops that [SPEAKER_00]: they were able to attack Trenton and get a major victory, which will help boost the morale of the continent army.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just luck.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's persistence.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's really just, I think, one of the hearts of our American Revolution.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to add to that, which was also on my list, is that our national heroes are both just [SPEAKER_02]: And we can seriously question them and have, like, oh, my God, I can't believe that about that person, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they're just people, but they're also just people who rose to the occasion.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what how or why you know those those things, but it's people who committed to an idea or a set of values or something, but they're still just people at the end of the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And flaws and all and what kind of inspiration those ideas could bring to a [SPEAKER_00]: just one person, finally volunteers, what time, and another one, and another one.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's contagious, I think we mentioned it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, you're, you're, you're caught, your troops are about to all leave in the middle of the war.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's just I can't not fathom that because we have a yeah our our military works in a different way now yeah for obvious reasons yeah no I gotta go I gotta go back to my corporate cubicle job sorry I'm gonna here's my rifle and I'm gonna go now buy that's right what I got the project report that's due yeah yeah my quarterly reports yeah my shift manager the subway [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you have one final thing about the material.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I, I kind of took it off.

[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think it was not really germane, but, is this what he's, I don't know that he's telling, maybe this should have been in the surprise.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's so many little variances here.

[SPEAKER_02]: But just that war consumes so much material.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, you know, you need food, you need water, you need ammunition, you know, they're talking about 7,000 cannon ball 50,000 shot whatever it's just like, [SPEAKER_02]: Right, and all of that, once that a lot of that material is consumed, it's gone.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you need to understand the steady supply of things.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I always, you know, when in our current situation, there's this weird chatter about civil war or is that where we're coming to another civil war, whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know, because modern firearms consume ammunition at a much greater rate than a musket back in the day.

[SPEAKER_02]: So to stand up an army is one thing, but to equip and supply an army.

[SPEAKER_02]: Matt, you're talking about a massive amount of resources and material that would be needed to sustain and actually achieve a victory of any kind.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm just talking in war in general, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you need to dedicate it in industry.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: To be able to feed an army.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that just feed an army food, but you know, in all of its consumption needs.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really important thing to not to forget in this story and then going forward.

[SPEAKER_00]: You see it throughout all history of warfare.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what was one of the things that made Napoleon so successful so early on is he understood the logistics?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm being very tried in simplifying that, but that is something that seen, well, it's received wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody can write in a challenge.

[SPEAKER_02]: not a fight that I'm going to try to win, but that's what I've been told is that he understood logistics very well.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what the modern American military is also very good at, is logistics and operations.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: You underestimate the importance of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anything else, Brian?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this has been fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will be back tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll figure out our Recrucording schedule.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think this is kind of one of those podcasts that's going to be a little bit evergreen people are going to catch up to winning as they can.

[SPEAKER_02]: But stay tuned for when we pick a date for a wrap up with Marilyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, lorhounds at thelorhounds.com.

[SPEAKER_02]: Again, rate and review and subscribe to all of our Discord server boosters.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for making our Discord a better place for our community.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to all of our subscribers and especially our lor masters, thank you all so very much for your subscriptions.

[SPEAKER_02]: We literally could not do these kinds of things without you.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, Brian, until tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_02]: And until tomorrow.

[SPEAKER_02]: The Laura Hound podcast is produced and published by the Laura Hounds.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can send questions and comments to Laurahounds at thewarhounds.com.

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[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening!