[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lorhound's podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: We are the Lorhound's Your Guides to Psycho History.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm John.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Marilyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is our coverage of Foundation on Apple TV+.

[SPEAKER_02]: Season three episode four, the stress of her regard.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get in touch with us, send an email to Empire at thelorhounds.com or head to our discord server from the link tree in the show notes and meet some really fabulous people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely and do you want to become an even more integral part to our community and support us and get ad free and bonus content check the same link tree for our Patreon and supercast subscription options [SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn, we're here almost to the midpoint of the season season three episode four.

[SPEAKER_00]: What do you think?

[SPEAKER_02]: What I think is, wow, wow, wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is just, I really enjoyed this episode.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was fun to see some of this by stuff in the noir, lurking around in the lower levels and callbacks in that respect.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that this episode had a few excellent reveals and a couple of unexpected turns.

[SPEAKER_02]: things keep getting revealed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes resolve that some questions are created at the same time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it's really a nice mixture of not making mystery boxes go on too long, but always offering more.

[SPEAKER_00]: Agreed.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is a nice thing of this format.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were jumping in a couple centuries or a century, each season.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so you kind of have to wrap up a lot of things every season.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's been a nice treat.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, it has.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, as always, the visuals are stunning.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're just amazing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the use of camera technology technique and things that I really know nothing about, but there was one in particular that even caught my untooter detention that I'll mention, further on down the line.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and a question here in our episode in episode two.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think you mentioned Don possibly being the emperor under whom the empire will dissolve.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the last statue in the line up of the opening sequence looks like dude day to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm wondering if that's a hint that this Don will never become a day.

[SPEAKER_02]: Approaching ascension, not the standing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's right, especially now that we see that there, that he's going out of town, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't coordinate him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the right verb?

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, you can't coordinate them.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's an interesting thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a long day.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's been a long day.

[SPEAKER_00]: How about crown?

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't put a crown.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't crown.

[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Crowned a new day if he's not there.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess, I guess, Denver's all could decant a new one.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that's what she's going to have to do if she's going to maintain the ongoing current situation.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's about all she can do, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: What about you?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I will say this was my least favorite of the episodes this season.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I know, I'm surprised you have to tell me more or us more.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there was a little bit of the rom-com thing that was developing love triangle perhaps that I'm not a huge fan of.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, just eating the same way episode one had a lot of exposition for setting things up.

[SPEAKER_00]: This one felt like setting up phase two of the season, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so this felt like we are [SPEAKER_00]: sort of splitting off into different directions.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's fine, but it's not as good TV as when we're actually living the events, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not faulting the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that it's honestly a good way to set up the second part of the season.

[SPEAKER_00]: But just from a strict, my least favorite of four good episodes, I think this is my least favorite.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's totally fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not every episode can be my favorite.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's kind of tough, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, although sometimes I feel that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we get the recency bias, don't we?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely, not to mention, you know, knowledge of the series as a whole and all that sort of thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm interested that you think there may be a love triangle.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not getting that, but I have to wait and see what it is you're looking at before I can say for sure whether or not this is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think they're absolutely pulling towards Dawn having a crush on Gale, who is [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit in love with Han, but Han's like super head over heels over her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are absolutely pointing to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I could see that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just think that Gayle is in a position of, I'm sorry, I can't have any relationships.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's sort of, you know, when you're when you're being that has the capacity to quote unquote lift forever, the thought of forming those kinds of relationships, [SPEAKER_02]: aside from just being scary is is kind of depressing right because you know they're all gonna die on you so so what right yeah it was what's gonna happen with dawn what what his long-term it all along a seek and a hold on yeah and I think you know you know if the mule were dealt with she might be like all right I'll take my reward now [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, that's a thought.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a thought.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think that she's ready to at this point.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's fair and Han.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just never really like the whole, oh, but we should be together now, even if it's inconvenient.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, all right, you know, I'm focused up.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that kind of, that kind of rank false to me too.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, let's remember that the showmaners are going to be doing their own thing here.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so who knows what they have in mind?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that could be.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, well, why don't we get right into the episode, starting with a confession?

[SPEAKER_00]: Demosil confesses to Vorellus as she orchestrated the destruction of the Star Bridge by an accrionant Thespis to save Harry Selden from execution.

[SPEAKER_00]: She did so to save the foundation and extend the life of Empire.

[SPEAKER_00]: She questions whether she can be reborn and Vorellus tells her she already has and will be again after Empire's end.

[SPEAKER_00]: Demosil lashes out at Vorellus and expels her from Eden.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love the way you put that at the very end, expels her from being that hadn't occurred to me, but it's definitely a resonant image isn't it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And she almost kisses at her, don't you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like a snitch?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I mean, see what I'm getting out of here?

[SPEAKER_02]: I do.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see where you're going with this.

[SPEAKER_00]: The way she pulls back, you know, it was so funny I was on Reddit the other day and I was, you know, again, we're ahead of the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just lurk on Foundation Reddit.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to speculate and accidentally spoil something for somebody.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I saw somebody say, I feel like they haven't shown demos.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll be threatening enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I had already seen this and I'm thinking, oh boy, wait till next week.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because of what you asked for, you might just get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: This demo result was terrifying.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know about you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, when she pulls the whole, he was my real face trick.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the [SPEAKER_02]: And I find that really interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: It fits into some degree with some some stuff from the original sources, but yeah, I just, I find it very interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I loved the way they opened with the chant of the luminists.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was just beautiful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't, I didn't put that in the outline, but really in full tone setting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, they set the whole thing very nicely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And my, my first thoughts about Dorellis.

[SPEAKER_02]: This third time around, it was just so consistent that she seems fairly monophacial and expression to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: But on the other hand, since that facial expression is as composed of people who are in fear, I suppose that's appropriate.

[SPEAKER_02]: She must be shaking her boots, talk about devotion to your your calling and your [SPEAKER_02]: You know, your ordination or whatever processes they use.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure she'd rather be at least sixteen of her places than this, but Illuminist who is recognized as Illuminist has called for this and she's someone that was asked to fill, and so there she is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, exactly.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she's brave enough to offer her counsel.

[SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of Demisels and growing annoyance, which wow, I mean, talk about commitment to what people leave.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even when Demisels says, cut it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: She goes forward with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: She keeps running.

[SPEAKER_02]: She keeps right on going.

[SPEAKER_02]: And says that Demisels behavior sounds like a woman who wants her freedom at any cost.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we're talking about, you know, home truths that demresologists can't quite bring yourself to acceptance, so she lashes out of course.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that could be true.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we also did reveal the cause of a star bridge collapse, which was a mystery since season one that it didn't seem like it made sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: The motivations didn't seem like they totally made sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: But now we know that it was this underlying principle.

[SPEAKER_02]: It could be interesting to go back and watch those episodes from season one and just see if there were any sort of [SPEAKER_02]: hints that we might not have picked up on that they dropped in there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think Demerzill has her tells all together though.

[SPEAKER_02]: Probably.

[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, I think that works for a robot, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like if it was a human, maybe they lose control a little bit and you see them tilt their hand.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it makes sense for Demerzill to have covered all her bases.

[SPEAKER_00]: And nobody doubt unless you want some.

[SPEAKER_02]: Particularly, you know, how many hundred of years ago is that now?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, nobody even cares anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why they did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: They just care that it happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Demerzell's whole process of slowly coming to realism, then suddenly, the meal comes along.

[SPEAKER_02]: And all of her numericals keep telling her, you know, this is gonna end in four months.

[SPEAKER_02]: So how does she work that into her equations?

[SPEAKER_02]: But Vorellus is using Demerzell's own words to try and bring her to see what Vorellus proceeds to be the truth.

[SPEAKER_02]: that Demerzel has called her here, that Demerzel doubts that she's in the mother's grace, because she cannot die.

[SPEAKER_02]: In addition to the existential question of, um, what am I, if there's no more empire?

[SPEAKER_02]: What am I, what am I going to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I going to be?

[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I love this tension that she points out, the verella's points out.

[SPEAKER_00]: With Demorselle, seeing only the facial value of the foundation at first, she saves the foundation in Harry Sullivan, thinking that that will extend the life of Empire in the short term.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yet, she actually helped bring down Empire by saving the foundation, because the foundation is a major cause of the fall of Empire.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and they have a wonderful line about the plans [SPEAKER_02]: don't listen to strong arguments, they listen to strong emotions or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have it in many other words, but I'm not seeing it right now.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the Vorellus' idea is kind of turning in Demerzel's understanding of events completely on its head because she thinks Vorellus does that it may be that Demerzel has died with each new iteration of herself.

[SPEAKER_02]: from Demers of the General to Demers of the last robot, as far as she knows, to Demers of being reprogrammed to serve the clans and not the ero with law.

[SPEAKER_02]: And to Vorellus, these things represent a death every time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Certainly a transformation of personhood, personality, whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she picks her words very carefully, but nonetheless, [SPEAKER_02]: Demresel tells her, look, the general, would have destroyed me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And still, Ferrell's press is on saying that Demresel is now an entirely different person.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's when Demresel literally rips off her face.

[SPEAKER_02]: Rips off the mask.

[SPEAKER_02]: And says that Ferrell is mistaking her for a human and sending her away.

[SPEAKER_02]: Every question that Demresel has asked has been a human question.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Existential dread.

[SPEAKER_02]: Identity crisis.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, religious questions, spiritual questions.

[SPEAKER_02]: How can, dimmers, oh, not see, unless she doesn't want to see.

[SPEAKER_02]: That she is becoming more and more human.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, as a human, she has to take responsibility for her actions, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: She's not just following programming.

[SPEAKER_02]: You don't think that there's a choice point in how you follow your programming?

[SPEAKER_00]: I do, but a human doesn't, you know, theoretically, you can doesn't have the directive to begin with, right, you can choose.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're an exact regardless, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really interesting, this idea of like, this demo Zell has become such a threat to the survival of humanity with the ero-thlaw that the general demo Zell would have destroyed her.

[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is Demosel such a big threat does Harry know?

[SPEAKER_00]: Does Valt Harry at least know how big a threat Demosel is?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just thought Harry think of her as a threat or as a tool to be used.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why not both?

[SPEAKER_02]: She's a run up both, sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Why not both?

[SPEAKER_02]: But she's asking for human insight and wisdom.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Varella has this.

[SPEAKER_02]: But Demorzell just doesn't seem to comprehend it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if she even understands how very human her questions are.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And how else can borrows respond to them except as a human?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't know what it feels like to be a robot.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, and I'm, spec she's probably pretty glad that she doesn't help.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So without even realizing it, it's Demousel who's put her locked her in this conundrum box, locked herself in this conundrum box.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: By on the one hand, responding to all these urges within her, which are certainly, I don't think full of eros and ones, [SPEAKER_02]: You're not, you know, analog or whatever, you know, they're not computer binary.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the word I want.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're not binary.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are existential questions.

[SPEAKER_02]: Who am I?

[SPEAKER_02]: What am I?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, why wasn't she thinking these things way back when she became a luminous?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it needed time to cook.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's an advanced luminous now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and it's true, you know, if one stays with a spirituality, one grows in it over time and you get a deeper understanding and perhaps that deeper, deeper level was more and more likely to come into conflict with her basic binary nature.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, it's, I find it fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, for people who aren't interested in these things, I suppose it could have been, yeah, yeah, let's carry out of the action.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do a moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just think it's wonderful and I love that they're doing it and I love the way they're doing it and I hope that we haven't seen a last of relis.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's also this aspect of [SPEAKER_00]: You know, her, her missions demise is imminent now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that really refrains, you know, people, you know, no, no atheist and foxholes, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that the, that's the expression I'm thinking of here.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's her circumstances have materially changed and it does make her reevaluate her life and her programming and her faith.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think this all makes sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: This all tracks.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so now I find myself thinking of that famous episode from the very first iteration of Star Trek, the original series of, I think it's feature.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of the ones where you have a robotic creature who is determined to, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: rid the galaxy, oh, all these delicious human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they use the function of computer logic because VJR has confused Captain Kirk as VJR's creator.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so VJR's journey, VJR's programming, which has been damaged sometime in this one space, is to eliminate all that is not perfect.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so Kirk finally confronts him and says, so I am the Kirk, the creator.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we just as you are the Kirk, you are the creator.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Kirk says, you're wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your creator died hundreds of years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not him.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are flawed.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are faulty, execute your prime function.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it just, it sends them into this loop.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, and he starts to burn out and so forth.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love Spock's response.

[SPEAKER_02]: your logic was flawless cap.

[SPEAKER_02]: We are in grave danger.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now I'm wondering if they were thinking about that episode and what happens when you present binary computers with very human conundra?

[SPEAKER_00]: Every time you see a binary, I want to do the doctor who binary binary binary binary binary.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I, that's the only word I know for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you're, I know, you're right.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's just I have brain rot for watching too much Doctor Who.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there were things to get brain rot for my think.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go to Ignis.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's go to Ignis.

[SPEAKER_00]: Onegness, Han pressure reunites with his friend Prim and his love interest gal.

[SPEAKER_00]: The latter two view Han's memories of the mule and Prim determines that the music amplifies the mule's influence.

[SPEAKER_00]: Han admits that the mule got gal's name out of him, but not the location of the second foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Later, Gail and Han discussed the upcoming crisis of a civil war between the foundation and the traders.

[SPEAKER_00]: After indulging in their romance, Han suggests marriage to Gail, but she refuses and sends them away.

[SPEAKER_02]: So first off, I'm delighted to find out that my suspicion that Han is a second validator.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good.

[SPEAKER_02]: True.

[SPEAKER_02]: So ten points to my house.

[SPEAKER_00]: I did not call that at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very impressed with you, Marilyn.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's nice to be impressed.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's great to impress you, John.

[SPEAKER_00]: I value that very much.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I'm impressed, I'm impressed.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't see how it's secretive perceived the mules effect.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what it was?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if nobody else could.

[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody else did.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we had a whole dance for people who just thought they were grooving out to the music.

[SPEAKER_02]: He knew something was happening and he knew that the meal knew that he knew.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that to me, you can only be a mentalist to have that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think some people in chat and discord suggested that well, maybe he had the ability, but he didn't know that he had all that kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think the fact that he was resisting it and then we had to get out.

[SPEAKER_02]: said to me, okay, he's got some kind of training here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, um, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't until the second viewing of the second episode that I finally recognized that pendant around her neck, which it's very prominent in that second episode, then the real point of showing it to us a number of times, hello.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, and so when earlier on, we had seen, you know, when the woman tries to make some moves on honey says, I have a commitment and the holds of this thing and everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: What is it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Now we know, which is, you know, satisfying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's interesting to that, Han, even kind of risks blowing his cover because he has a mysterious girlfriend who lives in Canada.

[SPEAKER_00]: But he does risk blow his cover, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is this fact that he's like, I have mysterious of mysterious lover and [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're trying to hide that you're in the second foundation, I guess maybe I'm overthinking this because the book, I think you are finding the second foundation is like a thing, like, you know, you might be suspicious of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: But here, the first foundation is completely oblivious of the second foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Unlike the books where, and I know we've gotten some comments, maybe don't talk about the books of the book, but I'm gonna say it here, the fact that the first foundation knew about the second foundation from the beginning in the books.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a big difference.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that didn't buy me at all because, hey, you know, he's clearly a player.

[SPEAKER_02]: He gets around.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's in, in, um, secret service and security and all this kind of stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, you know, come in with out of how many thousands of women right or end men.

[SPEAKER_02]: that he knew or encountered it, whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he couldn't even have been something religious or, you know, some kind of a vow he took as part of his secret service or, you know, he could have been.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's the descendant of brother constant and he doesn't, he doesn't feel like he should have it.

[SPEAKER_00]: He ties.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was a speculation, of course, listeners.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't have any notion if he's related to consent or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I found it interesting that Prem, the current for speaker, could hear the music from Hans Transmission of his encounter with him.

[SPEAKER_02]: Even in his deafness.

[SPEAKER_02]: And recognize it's important immediately.

[SPEAKER_02]: And right, could you kill the music I feel right as I understand it, uh, deaf persons can can hear music through vibrations or sense it through vibrations or of course.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Beethoven wrote the whole mind symphony with his ear to the piano, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Right, though he had had previous however many decades to [SPEAKER_02]: We're hearing should be able to sort of sort of this out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, he actually according to one thing that I'm actually put his teeth on the piano to really get the vibration.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, because do you know why they they think that they figured out why?

[SPEAKER_00]: He went deaf and it was that he was using they would use I think it was a lead compound.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Playing your wine to get the acid to the bottom of it spoiled.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So they were just drinking lead.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not going to be helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not going to be helpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do that kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just don't do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you're a kid, why are you drinking wine?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hello.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I wondered if there was some analog with us for how preem could be hearing magnificos music.

[SPEAKER_02]: Or possibly he was hearing it as Han actually had heard it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd be fascinated if we have any deaf folks in the community who would care to write in and often hear there are notions about this because I'd really be interested to know what with experiential knowledge might have to say about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, our podcast is transcribed.

[SPEAKER_00]: So maybe we do have some death [SPEAKER_00]: There we go.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're here, please contribute.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I found it interesting that the coercive aspect of the music comes through regardless of the perception or otherwise of the quote-unquote doubts of the music.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, maybe, maybe, preembs understanding is entirely experiential through Hans' own experience, and that's what they're sharing.

[SPEAKER_02]: That might be a way, a way to describe it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I just, it raised some interesting questions for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's sort of feeling what Hans felt while hearing the music.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, my two favorite lines.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hans says assassination is a failure, a spycraft.

[SPEAKER_02]: Gail response.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, where?

[SPEAKER_02]: Violence is the last resort of the incompetent.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: I heard that while I said.

[SPEAKER_00]: I said Maryland is going to be so pleased with this line.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know me so well done.

[SPEAKER_02]: Interestingly, this is the first time that this happened for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: The musical theme with the two of them by the link side.

[SPEAKER_02]: is quite reminiscent of not quite similar to Galatheville's theme from rings of power.

[SPEAKER_00]: Interesting, I'll have to go back and listen to that because I didn't pick up on that, but I believe you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's mostly in the seventh jumps, so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was the same thing as opening two.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a unique jump, you know, not a lot of people do those.

[SPEAKER_02]: So also confirmed my suspicions that Toran and Beta are second foundation as well as for a foundation.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think they are?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it was confirmed.

[SPEAKER_02]: They were talking about them and we saw their images flashed up at one point in this state.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you better rain in your two.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was I over-interpreting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that they're part of the second foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are just first foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because otherwise, why would Toran have been able to go up to the mill?

[SPEAKER_02]: Fair point.

[SPEAKER_02]: Fair point.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I think they were, they were discussing like they're useful, and I basically, Han and Gal were discussing their usefulness.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think they're second foundation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they called them his, they had a second, they had a specific thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: The companions or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Stan and there's something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: He did kind of recruit them to write.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that he could be his plus, he could be their plus one to get into the party and so.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, you're probably right.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're probably right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I find it interesting, you know, over the course of Hans life, he and Gail have had exactly thirty-two days together.

[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of puts things in, and interesting perspective.

[SPEAKER_00]: And even with that stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe that's not enough for a marriage.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it wouldn't be for me, but, you know, I can't speak for other people on that one.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, I'll speak for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what to judge.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I'm just joking around.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But even with that small amount of contact, thirty-two days, the meal detects Gale through home because Gale says he is holding her too closely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know what?

[SPEAKER_02]: That kind of disappointing me because the last here we have the usual trope of the downfall of a hero through his love.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I, again, asked us by now.

[SPEAKER_02]: Come on, people, we can do better than this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm totally with the Maryland.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that this, this is a very silly [SPEAKER_00]: relationship that they're building here.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just hope they do something unexpected with it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't imagine the fact that relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, the way they're handling it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the way, you know, the fact that it's dangerous, you know, oh, no, for being in love and all that, yeah, come on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Come on.

[SPEAKER_02]: We can do making more interesting in that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's take a quick break.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we are going to prime the radiant.

[SPEAKER_00]: or back to discuss the prime radiant to think that started at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ebbling Miss visits Mayor Inber and confesses he is woken, seldom, and that the vault will open in seventy-five hours.

[SPEAKER_00]: He tells Inber that seldom gave the prime radiant to Empire, and they call Ambassador Quent, upon learning this, Quent confronts dusk who relents and allows her to view and hold it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now I just thought this was really [SPEAKER_02]: very bad politicking, or not politicking.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I thought it was very bad practice that she's walking into public square, holding in her hand this visual image with it and everybody, anybody close by can hear him saying, oh, yeah, and I told him the degree of the private.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yep, she's like, what?

[SPEAKER_02]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody's like, it's just a secure line.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's, uh, what are those, I mean, in our current government and, and I don't know, like our current federal government from what I've heard from people in like national security.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've never dealt with anything like that, but they are, they even are supposed to like go into these, I forgot what they're called, but these like call booths basically, where it's also, you're like, you're not supposed to take it on your personal cell phone.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, some people like to use signal.

[SPEAKER_00]: But we found this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like that's the kind of security I would expect even in that time is is something at least you know, put your AirPods on.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so what does she do?

[SPEAKER_02]: She puts your phones on and she sits in the public square.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody around her can hear what she's saying and I mean, come on people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe she thinks plebians.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't matter.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's what she thinks.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that she's an excellent representation of the foundation.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so well.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so well.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's undertaking.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that's part of the rot of the foundation, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You see Mayor Inber, this incompetent, feckless mayor.

[SPEAKER_00]: You see her just drinking wine with dust can never really get anything useful out of him and never really coming to any kind of agreement.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just kind of, you know, it's exactly what people hate about politics, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just rich people in rooms, swishing wine and getting nothing done.

[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose, I suppose, but I just, I just kind of thought, yeah, silly, silliness.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did enjoy this this whole, you know, used the primary day and it was nice to see sort of the religious experience of it, it reminds you of of why this is such a magical thing and I mean, beautiful animation.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love when she does confront both dusk and dim resale with the knowledge that we now know that Empire has the Prime Radiant.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the image between dusk and quint.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the lines they use, you know, he's trying to make it work and it doesn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: She says, I understand.

[SPEAKER_02]: It happens sometimes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe if you wait a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then dusk response, oh, calm down.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know what got it now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this confirms my suspicions that the two of them are an item.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to be an ongoing theme for all of the dusks that they certainly enjoy engaging at intimacy with with women.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, presumably some of the engagement that you're seeing with men, but we never see the women.

[SPEAKER_00]: But at least you need to appropriate.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just thought they were such a cute couple.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm rooting for them as far as, you know, an evil person and an incompetent person.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would absolutely call this dusty people, by the way, with the Death Star, I mean, come on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, you're right, you're absolutely right, but even even people can have their cute sides.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody's complex.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying he's he's viewing on the side of evil here because we're going to tip the scale a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I think he's on a deal with and the vehicle.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no doubt about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, as you say, complexity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And please, Demiselle Bailey concealed herself.

[SPEAKER_02]: when she turned her back.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that that was just silly.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was kind of, that was kind of.

[SPEAKER_02]: However, take three more steps and walk behind a screen that is between her and quit before she grips up on your chest.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just have her pretend to go get it from another room, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Seriously.

[SPEAKER_02]: What were they thinking?

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I will say this in this world of technology where there's a lot of like, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, nanotechnology, maybe it would be more assumed that they had something to like conceal it in plain sight than it would be that Denver's also robot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just, it just, it seemed off to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I, I agree.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, huh?

[SPEAKER_00]: What are you doing there?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, oh, did we really have to see this again?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But something I was very glad to see was Cleon versus Cleon.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was fascinating, wasn't it?

[SPEAKER_02]: Tell us more, John.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see.

[SPEAKER_00]: Day visits the original Clion's projection to ask about his activity on Micogen in the twenty-six year of his reign.

[SPEAKER_00]: Clion one tells day that Emperor Abarana's read Micogen of most of the inheritance, but others escaped underground.

[SPEAKER_00]: Clion one's mission was to destroy the remnant [SPEAKER_00]: There he took tools that were holy relics to the inheritance and gave them to them herself.

[SPEAKER_00]: They spits on his creator and goes to see them result.

[SPEAKER_00]: He muses with her about her perfection and steals one of the tools she uses for her maintenance.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course we have a very important note here that Michael Jinn is big for the food supply so do not mess with them so much.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, watch that space I think.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can't think of any direct analog.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the second time it's been alluded to.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there was, oh, they grew yeast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was, there's, there's been a couple, a couple of references to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they are seeding that for a later disaster.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if you can't feed, you can't feed trend or it's done, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, of course.

[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, because being an entire city planet, there's there are no spaces with crops to [SPEAKER_02]: You know, feed even a small community never mind the massive one that they're dealing with.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was very interested, again, Lee Pace, chef, all the way.

[SPEAKER_02]: He seemed to be behaving with such gravitas and formality and almost even a touch of humility.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yet there was this sort of tension and I thought, okay, he's teeth through our niche because he knows if he doesn't do it this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's not going to get anybody to come out of the stasis and talk.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Also interesting was that the desk form of the Clion handed over to the day form.

[SPEAKER_02]: He said, Oh, that was before my time.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you talked to this dude, which if they're also supposed to share it all the same memories of whatever, what's the point of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it was interesting to see and be reminded.

[SPEAKER_02]: of how much the drift has occurred between the original day and this day.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, just the visuals, you know, here's this Roman centurion type with the crop tearing elusive.

[SPEAKER_02]: And here's this, you know, John, John the Baptist, I put the long air and the word gown and all the rest of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a nice visual reminder of just how much things have slipped.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting, you know, not just the drift, but [SPEAKER_00]: watching, I actually liked that they put lee pace instead of I can't remember the name of the older dusk, but I enjoy that they went that because it reminds you that this wasn't just his old man who pulled himself, this was the emperor, this was empire, and watching him [SPEAKER_00]: sort of, hey, you know, wish him good luck.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll do better than I did on the inheritance.

[SPEAKER_00]: Keep the dream alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Keep the dream alive.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the last thing that Clio on one said before, day spat on him.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a violent shock, a violent shock.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because up until that point, as I say, my reading of him was, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: respectful, grudious and all that kind of thing, but he just couldn't take it anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, exactly what he thought of him, which was, which was kind of fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the dynamic between day and death result at this point, she's really pulled back.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think she realized that she made a mistake by trying to stroke day's face and knows that he is some distributor.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think she would have been wiser to just wipe the memory of her being a robot and let him keep song.

[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that would have kept implicated enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: I see something slightly different, but we'll get there when we get there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Her line that I am compelled to protect you even when it causes pain.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think that was causing her a lot more pain than it was causing day.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think this whole rising fury of day has been cooking for a really long time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do too.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, he's just openly mocking her now.

[SPEAKER_02]: You see, he responds and a very robotic voice that was very well done.

[SPEAKER_02]: I almost believed in your humanity kind of thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oddly, very painful scene for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And again, such a human situation for Demorsel, it's like, what happens when the guy you love just throws it back in your face.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, as this me, just projecting too much of my human experience upon this robot, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, and Tim herself is a weird spot because she's acted as mother, advisor, sister, lover to this being that is almost immortal, but yet so chained to humanity.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the very names of these emperors signal their humanity, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Dawn, day, dusk is that they are constantly going through the cycle that you will never go through.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, that's exactly what Vorella said she had done.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just over a much longer period of time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe that's why it's done.

[SPEAKER_02]: Demersel so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because she's thinking in those terms of the cycle of the day is enough for Elsa saying, Oh, but you've been cycling too.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I suppose if you tell a robot that they're not, you know, universally and always what they are, that could be a threatening thought.

[SPEAKER_02]: And yet, [SPEAKER_02]: If they're acquiring more information and updating their programming and, you know, repairing themselves and all these things, surely they recognize that they're subject to the ravages of time.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, just in a different way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something else I wanted to talk about with the magazine, Food Supply is, this is such a great world-building detail that the food supply and the chain is the same under the year on the first and clear on the twenty, what are with the twenty-sixth, we're almost at the twenty-fourth, just centuries later.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that empire, this this colon empire has led the stagnation of development, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: There is there is still the same food supply.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are still the same weaknesses.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is still the same, you know, the same stress points that they were under the first emperor.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and I'm assuming, but I guess it's wrong because, you know, when they were a vast empire and they had all theirs, [SPEAKER_02]: stargate jumps in place and they could travel and you know that equivalent of the early Roman Empire the Roman Empire it's height when it was drawing in resources from all the places that it conquered over time I think Trent or had to be doing that too that's probably true but but it seems like Micogen [SPEAKER_00]: But Micogen has been the official bread basket, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And all the more so now when they've lost all those connections and planet after planet has been breaking away and you know, maybe the trade networks are starting to threaten the food trucks with food ships a few will and all kinds of things.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, well, let's track these two emperors as they flee.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've got two escapes, Dawn goes to see Gail, who appears in person this time and he's like, oh, no, we're in trouble now.

[SPEAKER_00]: They are followed and narrowly escape with Gail's metallic abilities.

[SPEAKER_00]: She reveals the second foundation as they enter space.

[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, Dave convinces the commander to help him escape [SPEAKER_00]: Outside the barriers, they remove his aura and extracts his nanites, sensing betrayal, they shoots the commander, saying he was loyal, but to someone else.

[SPEAKER_00]: Injects the nanites into the commander's body, and hides it for Demorzell to find.

[SPEAKER_00]: Both Cleans Escape, leaving behind the fading dusk of Empire.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that is such a poetic way of putting it, John.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that would be great though to have, especially this, this, this, this does really want to live outlive his lifespan.

[SPEAKER_00]: You betcha is, is Demer's all gonna let him because he's only left somebody's gonna rule this thing?

[SPEAKER_02]: She's just gonna just can't do more, isn't she?

[SPEAKER_00]: You're right, you're right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Unless that technology falls apart, which is, you know, a possibility.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what if, what if this, um, this does destroy the, the replacements?

[SPEAKER_02]: uh, would be a way of ensuring that he lasted out as long as he could until his brain when I suppose.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if he does that, and they're, and they lose the existing dawn and day, will that be, and he dies?

[SPEAKER_00]: Will that be the end of the dynasty, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Could will be, I mean, unless Demerzel has enough knowledge of generating new beings from genetic whatever's and, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But even so you have to wait for them to be born and grow, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: you can't just have a client out the next day.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought you could.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought, you know, in terms of the mature client.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe.

[SPEAKER_02]: My impression was that, you know, in the end of season two, when we saw one of them, the one of the days drift off into the space.

[SPEAKER_02]: That dimmer's, I'll just got a ship went home and decanted a new day.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, yeah, I think that's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess in my head, and I think that I think I'm wrong, actually.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I guess in my head, I was like, there's a couple copies of each one.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they are tracking, they were made at the same age at the same time.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were all born at the same time as their appropriate age.

[SPEAKER_02]: But maybe I'm not sure how that squares with the whole concept of the genetic drift over time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Seems to imply they're all still coming from the same source.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think they are.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't the way you think that hard about this one.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: We gotta let this go.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll leave while we time you wind me stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Pay no attention to the person to the robot behind the curtain.

[SPEAKER_00]: To the bathroom.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: So tell me, John, do you still think that day is the confession at what?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which is what you said last time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's very interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also think that he was correct and he's smarter than we even credit for.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's compassionate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he's also smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: He saw that that there was an impending betrayal and so he shot first.

[SPEAKER_02]: But he plant, he said this whole thing up way back when he was dicing and drinking with the bros.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think he did.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I do.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do because of his line where he says, [SPEAKER_02]: I can play the sucker, but only when necessary.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the clabbinger is saying, we all thought you were a sucker because of your bets and whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: They said, no, I was watching how clabbingers work and when they're certain they tap their cards.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was in his mind all along.

[SPEAKER_00]: See, I don't think so.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he made up his mind when the sick don't happen, when the lights flashed off at arm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I saw that signal and that seemed like a turning point.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because he says, my nanides go to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were always going, go to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was going to go to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: They were never going to go to her daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think I think he meant possession.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this was always you're gonna be your end of the bargain, but I do think he was genuinely going to give them to his daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he was gonna give them in a vile, hand them to him, therefore they go to him, and he was gonna go on his merry way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that this was planned from the beginning.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that this was improvised.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was improvised, and I think that day was [SPEAKER_00]: hurt, honestly.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he was genuinely hurt that the clavager, which we never got an aim for him, did we?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, he was always the clavager.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think he was, he was always just, he was genuinely hurt that that didn't work out, that this was not a true friend.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think this day has got a loyal supporter in you, John, and I hope you appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just looking at the whole track of his behavior, the cruelty to Demosel.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's bidding at the feet of his ancestor, going to his ancestor to find it, all right, so what did you get in my kitchen?

[SPEAKER_02]: The subtext here being, what do I need to get in there?

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why he steals, oh yeah, one of the tools from the results kit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: All of this suggests forethought to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think maybe I think he could have had this plan in mind from the beginning when song was still alive.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's when song was not altered, I guess, when her memory was not altered.

[SPEAKER_02]: But once that happened, I think all of a compassion without the window, and he was furious.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he was going to go down there, and he was going to, and the very last line, and he says, no one can escape empire, not even empire, but I'm going to see how far I can go.

[SPEAKER_02]: He's checking out.

[SPEAKER_02]: By whatever means necessary, and [SPEAKER_02]: I think he is full of rage and doesn't care who gets hurt in the process and was planning all along.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because in his sense, at some level, I think he knew that the clavager could never permit him to escape.

[SPEAKER_02]: Even if, you know, he had the keys to the house where his family was going to live and saved either rest of their lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't think there was that much trust between them because at the end of the day it was an entirely transactional relationship.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they could be paly and broy and all the rest of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But practically the first thing that the Clavinger says after day shoots him is, well, we thought you were the sucker, which says they were looking at him in a very different light.

[SPEAKER_02]: from the way the Clavinger was presenting it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Clavinger was paying a very difficult game here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think he did the best he could.

[SPEAKER_02]: He just wasn't counting on day being so observant.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not knowing that all along, you know, his death warrant had already been written.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how I interpret the date.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then I go to you, the man that's going to you, they were always going to go to you.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I could see where you had interpreted that as I'm going to go to you and you'll give him your daughter.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's just not what I heard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they were in a mile.

[SPEAKER_00]: He could have, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: If he let him walk away, you could have [SPEAKER_02]: He had to take him out of his arm.

[SPEAKER_02]: He stuck the thing in his vein and he drained it into a container.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but he was he was going to hand it in.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I guess that's where we're disagreeing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think that if he could have let the clavager go for he would have.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, I can see it that far.

[SPEAKER_02]: I can see it that far.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I would still say I don't see compassion in [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, if I can't, I will, but if I can't, you know, tough beans.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, he was a rival.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was a survival note, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I will use these tools to my advantage.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's not compassion in my mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think he was compassionate.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he, I think he wanted, he wanted those planets to go to the daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: But now he has no way to get them to, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think he wanted it as the tool to convince the cloud and jerk to go ahead and risk everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I don't think that completely negates his compassion, though.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's got more than we're given him credit for.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, then I'm getting credit for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're giving credit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Listen, you're the one who defended the, who is the villain, Joe, Jude Laws character on skill and group.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I, I say that there's, you know, there's arguably more compassion here than in Jude Laws character.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: We shall see, of course, maybe we won't see, maybe they're just leaving it to us to figure it out for ourselves.

[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was really funny that day announced his entrance to the family with his spirit.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, he looked fair in the house first and recently.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh.

[SPEAKER_02]: Day is coming.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll find a little fun fact here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I looked up the word capitalists, which is the name of the favorite C.A.P.

[SPEAKER_02]: I.L.O.

[SPEAKER_02]: US.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's Latin for hair.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, especially for hair on the head or hair on animals.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would say this is a very hairy parrot.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's the connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also think it's very funny that it's also the name of a contemporary company, which makes wait for it, laser caps, for hairy recovery.

[SPEAKER_00]: Good for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we all need some treatment sometime.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Once I saw a day determined, of course, of the action, I really saw Empire in him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that all of his behavior before with the Dragon and whatever could very well have been a means of masking this underlying plot, because it seems to me that the theme of this episode is all iterations of Empire were looking for a way out.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think I found sound and having known that, you know, she's not the kind of person who would go away with him to wherever, that the going to Micogen was part of his hope to escape and so on and so on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I honestly though, I think that the drugs were his escape for a while.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think he wanted escape, but I think that this whole plan hatched with the, you know, the disappearing of song.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, that could be.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's very well could be.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I mostly take him out as word so far.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I agree absolutely that the disappearing of song was a training point.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, all of the masks were torn off as far as his interaction with Tim herself from that point on.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: He just did not care anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's the point at which no, it's right before them when he starts calling diversity on it, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_02]: The amazing camera work scene that I referred to at the beginning was it's, you see the very, very still body of water.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then [SPEAKER_02]: the bodies, probably not intended, slips into the water and delights on it and everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what it was, but I just found that a really beautiful construction of that scene.

[SPEAKER_00]: Great camera work.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't love Dawn being a, first of all, it's a go-toe's terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: But second, the second.

[SPEAKER_02]: It looks kind of, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just just the whole scruffy.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the color.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's the second foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, a little bit, a little bit cringe dialogue, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It was not a huge fan of those dialogue that dialogue.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was kind of theatrical.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and I just thought what he was going in for the second time in the lower level.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it just, it's very funny how some technology just doesn't change.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're all using umbrellas.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just like so.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't know why.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even have like a levitating umbrella that you don't have to hold.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, or just a force field to cast over your head.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they did once and now they've had to revert to umbrellas isn't a further sign of the, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we should get umbrella hats back in fashion, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that could be fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we should do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: That could be fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: At the Lord Moot will all be wearing them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking forward to the Lord Moot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Whenever and how whatever it happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now all of the days, all of the iterations of Empire are trying to escape their fate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, dusk is just not geographically doing that.

[SPEAKER_02]: No.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, his escape is to keep living as long as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I think that his [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely vile idea of a gift for what he thinks the ascending dawn is just a pride to you living as long as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that's probably what he was saying.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't think he cares anymore about the survival of Empire in the broad context.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think he only cares about the side of Empire in his own person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I was going to carry on regardless.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's probably right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And see, getting back to the day again, I think he was seeking a way to bring down Denver so, because he's so furious that she interfered with his life extent.

[SPEAKER_02]: And her expression of caring for him just absolutely appalled him.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that was just the last straw.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a hard time imagining that he actually loves song.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_01]: You think?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, [SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing in his life that would lead him to that kind of instinct or behavior.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was clearly intended to be eradicated every time they visited the Gossom or Palace.

[SPEAKER_02]: Gossom or Cortix, excuse me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Demerza was his mother.

[SPEAKER_02]: Clearly, that just doesn't work anymore if it ever did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a sort of a fraternal fellowship between the three iterations, but there's also, [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of attention and conflicted, you know, I knew you're me, you know, the middle throne says, no, I just, yeah, where would he learn the love in that fashion?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's true possessiveness, but I, I just think he's more furious at being afforded.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, his his possession got taken away more than, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is love.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're got taken away.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're just toys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, [SPEAKER_02]: So I had a question, we've been told that Selden's plan only works with large masses of people and not with individuals.

[SPEAKER_02]: But of course Selden is an individual, and he thought Harry did that as an individual, he could keep the plan on trap.

[SPEAKER_02]: And another anomalous individual, the meal, has started off entirely, and now Selden expects a third individual jail to save it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm beginning to wonder at the end of the day aren't all individuals anomalous?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're moving away from the book representation to some degree.

[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, I won't go any further than that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're right, but I also think that the book even had certain people because they were outside of the regular predictability.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Could you mess up with the player?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also, Tinker with it to keep it on track.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you said certain groups of people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're not talking again about individuals.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, certain individuals could mess up the plan and get it back on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, again, this interesting tension between fate and free will.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: You will.

[SPEAKER_02]: To oversimplify it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I can't remember if I mentioned this on a previous recording, but you did mention the collay primorating of the collay thing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what in the world does that mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_02]: And also thinking back to that again, when Harry says to her self or said someone wanted me to have skin in the game, why and collay says, because we can't.

[SPEAKER_02]: So who's we?

[SPEAKER_02]: who is Kalei, which again we've been thinking about talking about before.

[SPEAKER_02]: Some people thought that Kalei looked very much like her as former wife, but I don't think her as wife wrote Kalei's ninth proof of folding.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think she used it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that's kind of a misunderstanding.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd be curious if there are any mathematicians listening [SPEAKER_02]: Does this name, Collie's ninth proof of folding sound like the sort of names that people give to mathematical formulas and other mathematical nomenclature for such things?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm just wondering, I mean, obviously proof.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's, yeah, I've heard of, you know, different proofs in mathematics before, but it sounds like the ninth piece in a series of origami art pieces.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right, right.

[SPEAKER_00]: The ninth proof that I folded something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I already mentioned all the iterations of Empire doing your best to escape their current fate, but maybe this is what leads to the downfall of Empire that they all run away and suddenly I'm run away, run away!

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, none of the Empire's Emperor.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so weird to say Empire's as people, so I always refer to Emperor, but none of the iterations of Empire seem to want to deal with the consequences of anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: Not at this point, I mean, I think that's supposed to show the, you know, the, both the decay of empire, but also the genetic drift and all the rest of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, although this dawn does seem to have some level of, I want to preserve humanity.

[SPEAKER_02]: I agree, which again is why I think if we're going to give any awards for compassion, he should be first in the line.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was also wondering, [SPEAKER_02]: you know, who is the we as I mentioned above.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now I'm wondering if it's other cognizant elements within the prime radiant, who are sending a warning about the coming of the mule, you know, that this why the sudden appearance of the mule tale would be the prime radiant.

[SPEAKER_02]: Where did that come from?

[SPEAKER_02]: It certainly didn't come from the mathematics.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that that's interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now that you're saying that, I mean, Harry's vault can make things real, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Big things.

[SPEAKER_00]: physically real can Harry's vault created a personification of a mathematical equation or a mathematical proof.

[UNKNOWN]: Hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because the Kelly's ninth proof was used in the primary date, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That was that was something stated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Some point.

[SPEAKER_02]: It way back in season one, I think it was, but Harry's way of drawing in other people who had his level of mathematical understanding.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, Colley's proof of folding had existed for quite a long time, but it posed a query or an anomaly that no one had been able to solve.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, Gale was able to solve, Colley's ninth proof of folding.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that was what brought her to her.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's attention and led to her invitation to leave Synex and go to Tran Torren.

[SPEAKER_02]: Basically, that's what kicked off the story.

[SPEAKER_02]: As I remember.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Any other speculation you have here?

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, that's it for now.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm here at a speculation for the time being, but I mean, what a rich episode that there's so many things that they have that are leading me to speculate in all kinds of directions.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: very cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well Marilyn it's always a pleasure to talk foundation to you because of my schedule like I'm going to do the housekeeping when I edit this but I will see you on the next episode of foundation.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, everyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am back to talk about the outro.

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