[SPEAKER_00]: Hi y'all, welcome or welcome back to Gilmour to read.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host Haley and I'm so glad to have you here today.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is the first of October, the week of the Gilmour girls 25th anniversary.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lauren Graham is getting a star on the Hollywood Rock of Fame on Friday if you didn't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's also a big week if you're a show girl.

[SPEAKER_00]: What a fun time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's also the first day of reading for our October pick for reading a sexy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mentioned last week that we'll be reading Love is a War song by Dan Canava, [SPEAKER_00]: which technically takes place during summer, but cowboy fall is a real thing in my opinion, and we will be partaking.

[SPEAKER_00]: But as for today's episode, I got to speak to the Darling Sangu Mandana, author of Set Timbers Pick for Reading a Sexy, as well as October 2024's pick for Reading a Sexy.

[SPEAKER_00]: This year we read a Witches Guide to Magical inkeeping and last year we read her other rather cozy witchy fantasy the very secret society of a regular witch is two books that I absolutely loved.

[SPEAKER_00]: Your regular witch is was one of my favorite books last year and that is the exact same for Witches Guide to Magical inkeeping.

[SPEAKER_00]: But before I get into my conversation with the ever charming [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to first offer some more book recommendations that feel like a more girls.

[SPEAKER_00]: I picked Witch's Guide to Magical inkeeping initially because Sarah, the main character, runs in in with a quirky community of people inhabiting it, which felt very much like a more girls with its setting of the independence in and more importantly, the Dragonfly in.

[SPEAKER_00]: More importantly, I don't know, but if this is a setting you really love as well, I have a few more suggestions for you in the vein of the dragonfly in being the setting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll also post this to our socials and our newsletter in the event that you don't currently have a pen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Looking for a pen, looking for a pen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Does anyone else remember that scene?

[SPEAKER_00]: Ten points to you if you do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, the first on my dragonfly in inspired reading list is one that I won't speak too much on, [SPEAKER_00]: The reason I'm not speaking too much on it is because Julia Livia will be my next guest on Gilmour True Read Next Week.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's talking all about her 90s, a terminal romance where the main character Michelle takes over her late mother's B&B, bird and breakfast, and a small New England town, and will dive into everything regarding that book next week.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a non-spoiler chat so you can just get to know the feel of it a little bit more before you dive in.

[SPEAKER_00]: My next recommendation is the Hartbreak Hotel by Ellen O.

Clover.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Hartbreak Hotel is a story of Lou who for the last six years has rented a house with her musician boyfriend who when he breaks up with her the only thing she wants out of their six-year relationship is to keep the lease on the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: She absolutely loves it but she cannot afford the rent on her own so with the permission of the landlord Henry.

[SPEAKER_00]: A too cute for his own good recluse of a veterinarian, who has unexplained feelings about the house, Lou turns the house into an oasis of sorts for the broken hearted to take some time out of their life and heal a bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is a complicated parental relationship in Dearing Oddballs who stayed at the house a strong sense of love and found family, and a brewing romance with the owner who seems to have a heartbreak of his own connected to the house as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Rolling Stone, named it one of the top 10 most anticipated books for fall, our friend of the podcast, B.K.

[SPEAKER_00]: Borsan called it lush romantic and devastatingly tender.

[SPEAKER_00]: There are so many moments in it that I feel my heart and my throat at what Lou is feeling, but it is so healing to go through it with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: It really reminds me what I love so much about soft romances like this one, and I really think you'll like it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lastly is a book that came out last year, and that is sex-lies sensibility by Nikki Payne.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually a retelling of Jane Austen's sense and sensibility.

[SPEAKER_00]: As two sisters will up their sleeves to run a dilapidated inn, but must learn to work with the locals to do so.

[SPEAKER_00]: Arming character Nora, her reputation is a bit in tatters after a viral video that ruined her.

[SPEAKER_00]: as well as finding out she is her father's love child.

[SPEAKER_00]: In his will he was left a dilapidated in that she's decided she can fix.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just have to say that Nicky's writing is fantastic.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is so tender, heart-wrenching, and absolutely downright hilarious.

[SPEAKER_00]: She can flip a line that has you laughing and will immediately switch you to tears.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of my favorite parts about recommending this book today is that it starts on October 1st.

[SPEAKER_00]: which I always love.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love when my life aligns with the dates that are used in a book, so it is a perfect date to get into it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nikki also uses the love interest of bear to explore his identity as a member of the Abanaki tribe in Maine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Her authors know on the subject is so purposeful explaining the dedication that went into her research to best represent bear as a unique individual that exists in a spectrum of experience.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was actually the [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to read a little bit of it to you here because she wrote that as a black woman in America, I could write for a century and still not scratch the surface of the vast spectrum of experiences and stories within the African American community and yet there are some who would recite the often touted wisdom to write what you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to agree on this, but we don't actually know that much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Empathy is largely an endeavor of imagination.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just that last line, I just got such chills from reading it, because not only is it just like a beautiful sentiment, it's such a gorgeously written, concise sentence that I knew that immediately I was going to love the way that Nikki Paint writes her approach to this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I knew that if we were kicking off the book with a thought like that that the book had of me was going to be such a gorgeous and worthwhile journey to go on which has proved true.

[SPEAKER_00]: So those are three books with an inn or a bee and bee at the center of all of them with their own take on the setting.

[SPEAKER_00]: We all deeply enjoy from Gilmore Girls and while all the ins and these books feel magical, the one in which is Guide to Magical and Keeping.

[SPEAKER_00]: is magical.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've heard me give a description of this book in past episodes, but very briefly it's a story of Sarah Swan, a self-described, certainly in keeper, who actually has such a warm heart for those around her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Loses her magic, bringing her aunt back from the dead, [SPEAKER_00]: an attempt to cast a spell to save it, she gets help from a stand-offish magical historian named appropriately for us Gilmore Lovers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And while this is definitely a fantasy because there is magic and she is a witch, it at the same time feels very contemporary because it takes place in present day and it just feels like one of those books that like, yeah, this is just about a woman who happens to be a witch and happens to be able to cast magic.

[SPEAKER_00]: but like that's completely normal and there is nothing to see here.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is a talking fox, of course, which singer when I talk about in this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is one of my favorite books of the year like I mentioned before.

[SPEAKER_00]: The cozyest book you could read right now and so perfectly aligned for readers who love Gamer Girls, which I assume is all of you.

[SPEAKER_00]: A bit about San Gu, San Gu Mandana was four years old when an elephant chased her down a forest road and she decided to write her first story about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: 17 years and many many men used to go to bed later, she signed her first book deal.

[SPEAKER_00]: San Gu now lives in Norwich, a city in the east of England with her husband and kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's written quite a few YA novels if you like the general feeling of her writing in her [SPEAKER_00]: This was such a fun conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know that it's like so typical of Americans to a door British people speaking, but I just loved getting to listen back to her voice a second time when I reviewed this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: She is such a fun, loving, charming individual who talks about.

[SPEAKER_00]: Her history of writing, her history of loving fantasy.

[SPEAKER_00]: We also talk about who might be a witch and stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hollow, she saw Gilmore girls once a few years back and remembered much more than she thought she would.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, we dive into a spoiler chat of the book at the end if you have read it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if not, maybe the conversation leading up to it when ties you to head straight to the bookstore, which is always my goal.

[SPEAKER_00]: I loved getting to know more about Sango and I hope you do too.

[SPEAKER_00]: So without further ado, here is Sango Mandana.

[SPEAKER_00]: Congratulations on hitting the New York Times bestseller list.

[SPEAKER_00]: How does it feel to have a book as gentle and cozy as this one amidst thrillers and high drama books?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to be honest, I feel like I'm still in denial.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been writing books, publishing books since 2012, and this is the first book I had that hit the New York Times.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think part of [SPEAKER_01]: I really definitely did, it did, I can confirm.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was incredible, I was on tour when it happened and on my one hand it was really nice to be able to celebrate with other industry people and my publisher and my editor and my publicist and it was amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And on the other it was like, what even what's happening?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that I would say it's wild to me that cozy gentle fantasies on these lists because I think that I understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the last few years post-COVID been this resurgence of, I mean, I guess us as readers, valuing softness and gentleness a lot more.

[SPEAKER_01]: Just not to say we don't still love the dark fantasies and the fears.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just the fact that the sort of like cozy software fiction was kind of an afterthought before and now is something people are actively looking for.

[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it makes total sense that a book like that would be on the list.

[SPEAKER_01]: My brain can't quite compete with my book.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was your book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that you feel like you need to like process alone because you said you were on tour You were with all of these industry professionals with your peers with your readers even but I feel like for me I like need to go lay on my bat and be by myself Yeah, it is fat.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it is sort of like you just let me fly on my bed Which weirdly enough which might explain it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't really had a chance to do yet should we get off here and you can go lay on your bat instead [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's just been a lot of go-go-go, which has been amazing and exciting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've done a lot of events, I did the tour, I had a short window, I went on holiday with my family, but when you travel with more kids, it feels more like it's their holiday, not yours.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think I haven't actually had a chance to really sit with them, and I think that might be part of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It might be that I do need to lie in my bed for like three hours [SPEAKER_00]: Just think, that sounds like a dream to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it hard for you to define success in that capacity, like having your name on the New York Times by Seller Lace, is that something that you reached for, or was that something that you put out of your mind in order to not torture yourself with it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not going to lie.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think no matter how many times, or which has got to magical in keeping, was my tenth published book.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, ten books in, you kind of think, it's never going to happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time, you absolutely hope each time that it will happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, I don't know that I would necessarily say that when you write a book or publish a book of the goal, is to be on the New York Times bestseller list, but it is a big deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is a huge part of what we, as authors, include in our kind of, it's, I wouldn't say it's the goal, but it's part of the goal, just because it's [SPEAKER_01]: it's a big deal and I say this as somebody who's been on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't necessarily translate to ongoing success or success beforehand.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean the very secret society of irregular witches has never hit the New York Times but it's sold half a million copies.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean I kind of feel like there's different measures of success and so I've never considered it sort of like [SPEAKER_01]: the goal that I've always wanted to aim for, but it's always been a part of just kind of like that checklist of things you want to do at some point.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it's on there it might not be at the top if it's on the top it's probably some conversations need to be happening for your expectations for yourself but it's it's always great I think that when I look at it especially with authors I'm gonna talk to [SPEAKER_00]: I see it as like wow, look at how many readers they were able to reach and how many more they will be able to give in that like a lot of the lists like determine like placement and bookstores, etc.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so whenever I see that I'm always like wow, Singus books are going to be like in so many more places and reach so many more people just by being there.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, again, that's the bit that just the brain does not, but you know, I mean, I've kind of been feeling like that for a couple of years now because irregular witches were such a surprise sleeper hit and it has been so consistently selling for three years, like it's really unusual for a book.

[SPEAKER_01]: to just think that as well as it did at the beginning three years on and so that just it that bubbles my brain because I'm kind of like it astonishes me that I mean I think when we first sort of like hit 10,000 copies I was like it but it [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely blows my mind the 10,000 people have potentially read this book and then it was a hundred and it was like this no it's just it's not going in yeah and I've always been a reader so I grew up being that person who saw you know the multimillion copy bestseller on books and I don't think you quite conceptualize how many people that is until you know you're [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially when you go on something like a book tour and you're like, okay, well, there's there's 40 people here Okay, if we times out by like thousands and thousands, like that's how many people would have to be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, to Contact like that and I mean I could promise you I still go on to events and Live in terror that won't come like your birthday party in elementary school anyone come This goes back to like the childhood horror of like [SPEAKER_01]: Studying there alone.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I feel like as a mom it's kind of too full now because you're like you are all so the child Because you wrote the book, but there's like a part of you that's like oh, no Is anyone gonna show up for like that person inside of me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like yeah, I feel like that's a little bit of double-edged sword now It is yeah, you were talking about going up being a reader what books were you reading when you were growing up?

[SPEAKER_00]: Were they magically inclined?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah [SPEAKER_01]: Not only magically implied, I will say that, I mean, I read just about everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I grew up in, like, my childhood was the 90s, you know, ebooks, one thing, uncle, I was a teenager, I mean, they were, but not in the way that they are now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, the Kindle, I think the first Kindle came out when I was sort of like in my late teens, early teens maybe.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I also remember thinking for a very long time, oh, I'm never going to use that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to read my books on a screen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now that's almost the only time I actually have time to read is on a screen while I'm doing things.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I read anything I could get my hands on, because I mean, I was very fortunate.

[SPEAKER_01]: My parents were big readers.

[SPEAKER_01]: We had lots of books in the house.

[SPEAKER_01]: but you know they were a lot of them were books that were probably a bit older and so I remember reading a lot of mysteries, Agatha Christie was a huge favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember reading some very inappropriate mills and boon, like you know like the old harlequin, like yeah, I remember reading a lot of those and then of course there were a lot of magical more child-appropriate books like I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend them now because a lot of things don't necessarily hold [SPEAKER_01]: but like I read a lot in a blighten, both the mysteries and the magical ones, I read a lot of, so like the fantasy that was coming out and popular around the time, I just like, I loved the magic.

[SPEAKER_01]: I read a lot of, how's the other thing that I read?

[SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't really think of it because it's not books to me, but like mythology.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Lots of that, both kind of like stories told to me, [SPEAKER_01]: stories in other media and other books.

[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of mythology and folklore.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just loved it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can feel it in your writing that you like kind of have that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It feels really natural in the world because of course this is like fantasy but I'm like no no no no these are just witches and they live in the regular one and this is contemporary of course that fox talks but this is normal.

[SPEAKER_01]: and i think that's kind of because that's kind of like the fiction that imprinted on me that sort of that mixture of the real world that i was living in and the fantasy world that i was reading about and so i tried to make them a work as naturally together.

[SPEAKER_01]: as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I love second world fantasy but these cozy contemporary books where it feels like out in the real world you could stumble across a magical inn that really speaks to me right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah that's exactly where I would want to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: What draws you to writing magical fantasy over just contemporary where we just have Sarah running an inn that just happens to be really cozy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have an endless amount of admiration and all for contemporary romance writers and contemporary fiction writers, because I'm like, okay, but without the magic, how do you do so many words?

[SPEAKER_01]: But where do the words come from?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's ridiculous, obviously I get where you're at, but for me it's magic such an intrinsic part of everything I write and have written that I feel like I wouldn't even know how to separate it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm not saying that I can't construct a story with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: and maybe I don't know maybe I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: You definitely can.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I just feel like there's a certain magic to a contemporary romance that has to exist.

[SPEAKER_00]: That feeling of love, but in yours, it's just, it's just real magic.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can totally see how you could write a contemporary romance from this.

[SPEAKER_00]: 100% maybe Luke works in a terrible corporate job, but it's just more fun that he's a community which who is a historian.

[SPEAKER_01]: is I think just for me I especially I think as a parent and as an adult.

[SPEAKER_01]: So much of the magic is kind of leached out of the world as we get older and we're expected to be more grown-up, we're expected to be more you know grounded and in a way that's great we are supposed to be grown up and [SPEAKER_01]: that sort of that childlike joy and wonder and that capacity to believe that maybe I mean okay I know it's unlikely but maybe these things are possible and I think that's what I love to write about I love to write things that make me feel and hopefully readers feel like this is something they could actually find just out and about yeah what feels magical in your own life [SPEAKER_01]: That's a very good question.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I feel like the world right now is so egregiously unmagical and uncozy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It gets me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it gets all of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: It really drags us down and so I feel like for me personally it's been harder than ever to kind of find that magic.

[SPEAKER_01]: in everyday life when you know you're so swept up in the horrible things happening around you and around the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the only thing I've really been able to do because I think we do, we do have to find things that can get us through.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think silliness is downright magical because it has a way of making just [SPEAKER_01]: horrible things just feel just slightly more bearable because you're able to laugh about something else.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, to small, simple things, a hot drink when it's cold or a cold drink when it's hot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, it's like a silly joke.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it just just look for like silly things to entertain and amuse you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, things that kids will tell me or something like, even a funny meme.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think sometimes speaking is somebody who is online too much.

[SPEAKER_01]: and probably shouldn't have been in the final line.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was just, it's the small things that make you laugh, I think.

[SPEAKER_01]: That the magic that I'm relying on right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: To get through.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like your books really reflect that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like your books are a perfect place for anyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: who is struggling with the state of the world, which I don't know anyone who isn't, that to dive into your books and feel that silliness, but acceptance and just this cozy world, where there really is always a hot drink and a cinnamon bun.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, cinnamon buns.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like literally through this whole book.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was, that's all I wanted to like at some point, I was like probably like 75% of the way through.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I'm done.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm making cinnamon rolls.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't, I can't deal with this anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I often say that because it's so funny that like some books are like a time capsule of those weeks months.

[SPEAKER_01]: years sometimes of an author's life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I can always tell, looking back at my books, what I was specifically, because that's the other thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've had ADHD, so I have very specific, but short-lived hyper-fixations before I get bored and move on to the next thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it's like this time capsule, each book of what I was obsessed with.

[SPEAKER_01]: And clearly I was [SPEAKER_01]: a lot when I wrote this one yeah do you have a hyperfixation right now that you're like invested in crochet oh okay I'm actually really proud of myself for this one because it's one of the most wholesome and not internet based hyperfixations I've had in a long time I usually end up hyperfixating on like a TV show [SPEAKER_01]: or just some random thing I discovered on the internet.

[SPEAKER_01]: A fanfiction is one that often gets me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's just sucks me in for a while and then I'm out again.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, at the moment it's like crocheting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I never thought I could and then I did this like tutorial and now I can and I'm like yay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are we gonna have magical crocheting in your next book?

[SPEAKER_01]: They might be because like I said it's almost impossible for me not to like funnel my current obsessions into the books.

[SPEAKER_00]: I right you talked about a time cap So I do want a time travel to a little bit because Gilmour girls came out in October 2000.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's 25th anniversary this year.

[SPEAKER_00]: What were you writing in the year 2000?

[SPEAKER_00]: I was 12.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay in the year 2000 [SPEAKER_01]: Really?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now I have to...

Now bear with me while I tell you about this absolutely horrible awful epic fantasy that I wrote.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, the premise...

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything about it and again, I was 12.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything about it was so derivative and so crap.

[SPEAKER_01]: But obviously it was my first big, big, like full-sized fantasy novel.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's impressive though, at 11-12, to be committing to that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Less impressive if you've read it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The idea was, there was a chosen one who was born on the 21st day of the 21st month.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, this was a world with 21 months.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the 21st day of this 21st month, and so she's this special chosen one who has been prophesied to destroy the great evil looming over her kingdom.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course she's a princess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course she falls in love with [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say a knight.

[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that there was nothing original about my, you know, princess knight chosen one story, but yeah, that's that is what I was working on in 2000.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's pretty impressive.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm impressed with 11 year old yo.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was trash.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was filming.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was probably like a lot of the rings mashed up with.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fairly certain that at some point there was talk of like, you know, a last alliance of like me and my nose.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't, like I will never let, I don't even know where it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: But even if I could find it, it will never see the light of day.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when you're next book is about a chosen one, born on the 21st day of the 21st month, we'll know the ordinary story.

[SPEAKER_00]: It will never be, but you'll never be that.

[SPEAKER_00]: of course I asked beforehand that I told you what your level of Gilmore Girls knowledge interests wise and your public says said she could carry on a conversation about it and I was like okay this is this is where we're going in but what's your history with Gilmore Girls like did you watch it when it first came out all those 25 years ago?

[SPEAKER_01]: at definitely not because I wasn't at all at least two of my kids were born if not all of them when I first I mean I don't want to say discovered because obviously I knew it exists yeah but it I don't think it occurred to me that it was something I think when you kind of grow up with the awareness of something as as a known entity you know like a pop culture phenomenon [SPEAKER_01]: a cultural thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't experience it at the time, you kind of don't feel like it's your thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like you missed out on it, and it's like you missed the train.

[SPEAKER_00]: You've moved back home.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of like, well, fine, I don't really know any, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I was, yeah, I want to say fully and adult, probably about eight years ago.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think when it was all on Netflix.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it came out on Netflix in the 2014 [SPEAKER_01]: might have been around then, probably a little bit later, I think my husband and I were just doing that thing of looking for something to watch and, you know, being like, oh, I'm on the mood for that, so that's not it, non-mood for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll look this in Gilmore Girls and, oh, well, you know, we're looking, we can try it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we kind of like binge the first two seasons together that are like over the course of a week.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I watched, [SPEAKER_01]: I think most of the rest of it, now I will admit I don't remember all of the ins and outs of it but I think quite a lot of it sticks with you I think stars hollow in particular is very memorable.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember a part of it that like you gravitated towards or if there was a part of it that you were like I don't like this?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean I think what stuck with me the most and so it was the town and so I think that was probably the bit I loved the most.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really liked Melissa McCarthy's cookie.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so keep there we go.

[SPEAKER_01]: I loved her.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really liked her friendship with Laura Ly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think I remember there were multiple times where I wanted to like throw something at them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was just the Rory Lorelei and like their kind of, it's a very dysfunctional relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, very codependent.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Emily, is it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing great.

[SPEAKER_01]: See if that you did.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you only wanted to throw a book at at least once.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's another sort.

[SPEAKER_00]: She does her, there's sometimes that she deserved it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's like a...

I think she redeems herself a lot every now and then.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think the inclusion of her emotional perspective because it's for sure kind of like, oh, she's kind of her evil mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then you get her insight and you're like, oh, she's hurting too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like everyone has feelings, oh no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I actually was thinking about because like the curse of me is that when I'm raining a book, I'm always like, how does this feel like go more girls are like, then I like project it backwards and like, how does this book like where does it fit into stars hollow?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was thinking like, [SPEAKER_00]: who would be most likely to be a secret wedge in Star's Hollow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I think Suki, like, she gets so hurt in the kitchen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she is like the most fantastic food that I feel like when there's some sort of magic happening in those, in those pots.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think another like raid candidate would be the guy at the hotel who'd like is either Michelle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, he has the vibe of somebody who is concealing hidden magical depths 100% and he's not going to tell you and he's going to like drop hints to like yes and he will be you know sarcastic and snide and but then when you need him he will he will sneakily be there with some kind of [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, probably you'd have to really squint to see the magical bit, but it just meant that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm convinced.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can totally say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can actually see, like, Laura, I have no magic in both of her friends secretly being witches.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because, like, Suge and Michelle kind of famously have a little bit of, like, attention between them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they fight a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I could totally see the both of them being secret witches and Laura, like, just being like, a lot at all, at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they kind of like, and their magic is sort of what helps her kind of like, you know, carries her along sometimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's face it.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are times when you genuinely ask yourself how she achieves anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so many times that when we're watching, we're like, it's the middle of the day.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you with the diner eating burgers?

[SPEAKER_00]: You're with friends, you're back at the work, doing all the work.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they're actually real people and now they're having to do everything while you're over here, having to be plot conversation with a different character.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even if you don't feel like you remember it, it does feel like you you have retained quite a bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a fandom or book movie that is like comfort media to you that you feel similarly about?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that there are things that I loved in the moment in that phase of my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I absolutely loved them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're a multiple huge fandoms out there, like Twilight.

[SPEAKER_01]: That I loved when I was growing up, but that I wouldn't consider a comfort thing now, that I'd go back to.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is not to say that I don't enjoy some of it in a nostalgic way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I said, the movie's on and I'm gonna, I'm gonna send Marchet.

[SPEAKER_01]: but I don't necessarily seek it out, and then there are some things where I'm just, I just don't.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're doesn't bring me comfort, so I don't go back to it at all, actively avoid it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But a few things do hold up, I think, in one of them is, I mean, [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just I feel like anyone who's ever heard me talk about this is probably bored to death of me saying it But how is moving parcel so many people have said that really there's no I mean there's there's no two ways about it It's there's the studio diggibli version which I love actually the book I love it even more it is just so charming so nostalgic so comforting it makes me endlessly sad that it's [SPEAKER_01]: when there are three books, but like that one is just one book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, you know, like it eight seas in TV show.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's what I come back to, and it's I think it's been a huge impact on my writing on the way I use whimsy and magic and silliness.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just comforting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I come back to it again and again.

[SPEAKER_01]: I reread it at least once a year.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no too many when it's your favorite.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've never really been a person who collects lots of different editions of books.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have my favorites and then I just tend to just am a particularly bothered which version of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But this one, I have every time I see a new pretty version, I must have it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I really love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people have said that recently.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've never actually read it, but it has been coming up a lot in my life recently that I feel like it's time for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I really think you will, and I think you've seen the movie.

[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't.

[SPEAKER_01]: I would say read it first.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: because the movie and the book are quite different.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're both really good on their own terms.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're both amazing, but the book is a lot cozier and a lot softer.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would say read the book first because it is just so charming.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I could just go on forever.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, off to, off to go find one of the special editions that you have to read it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I always do find the book as cozier.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it's, it's just the nature of reading a story like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That like, you just fall into it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, even if we, which, like, fingers crossed, or which is guide would make an excellent movie, I just still feel like the book, like, just like that story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just like, there's just something that can't be coesified.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the huge part of it is the way we as readers sort of imprint a little bit of ourselves on the story as we're reading.

[SPEAKER_01]: We imagine things the way, because that's the other thing about cozy is that it's so subjective.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yes, there are obviously some what seems to be universal elements of like, you know, cozy blankets and soft textures and kindness, but what we find [SPEAKER_01]: can change from person to person and so I think that the way we interpret the things we read, lends itself so much better to coosiness than having a very specific image on a screen.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it can work, but it doesn't necessarily work for everybody all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like a lot of the times do it like it takes a rewatch to like really like feel the cozy because it's like of course you're watching first for the story and like if you're picking up on the vibe of it, but it really is like I feel like a second watch is where you have to get that worse.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe a book gives it to you, gives it to you the first time around.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but speaking of cozy vibes, I think that you write, despite having experienced it a while ago, I think you write books that are really well suited to Gilmore Girls fans, because your books give what people come to stars all over for.

[SPEAKER_00]: A place that's cozy, we're nothing all that bad happens, we're the cinnamon buns never run out.

[SPEAKER_00]: and the community is quirky and always have a shoulder to lean on and ear to lend your woes, filled with nothing but love and found family from family that doesn't always understand you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like when I heard a witch's guide to magical in keeping was the name of your next book, because we of course read the secret society of regular witches last year and then I heard about your next book.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, we're done, like an innkeeper, someone who works at it in, which he's like a witch.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing that next fall, absolutely, of course.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when I started to read it, recognizing that Sarah accidentally cast this spell on the inn.

[SPEAKER_00]: that draws people in to get what they need from it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, that's exactly what happened to Lorely when she went to Star's Hollow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it drew her in and gave her what she needed.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also the audience that like you're pulled back to this town when the world is crazy or your life is being turned upside down or something's going on where you need that comfort.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you returned to Star's Hollow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just felt like what was drawing people to the baddie hole was.

[SPEAKER_00]: go more girls, though, not magic.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there's something magical about the power some media has to create those feelings of comfort and home.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you feel like you're coming home, you feel like there's community.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that, like you said, when something's going on, when you're [SPEAKER_01]: what you turn to is this comfort read or this comfort watch and I think there is something inherently magical about the power that art has over us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely and I just feel like as I was reading it it's one of those things that you say cozy fantasy sometimes you expect things to move along.

[SPEAKER_00]: quite slow, like it's meandering, but I felt like the pacing of this was so perfect compared to like the cozy nature of it that every chapter ends and you have to turn the next page, you have to figure out what's happening, you have to figure out what's going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was just like the most divine fall read that I just really feel like if any book that someone picks up this fall [SPEAKER_00]: but you want to be an English country side in a diverse group of people who all find home in an inn that feels quite familiar but magical that you have to read, which is guide to magical and keeping.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in your words, what is the book about?

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for saying all that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that you, you know so many people have responded to this book in such an incredible way.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is fundamentally a story about a bunch of people who have never really found their place in the world, who've never felt like they belong or fit in anywhere, [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a safe place, it's a welcoming place, it's a refuge, and the people there are quirky and silly and sometimes downright, obnoxious, but I think much like family, found family, any family, it's, there are people that, you know, sometimes you think, I don't know why I put up with you and yet here you are.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a story about a witch who is incredibly powerful, loses that power, and then spends a long time struggling with the question of who she is without this hugely defining part of her identity and trying to get it back.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I think it's spoke to me because a lot of the things I've struggled with over the past ten fifteen years have been those questions of who did I used to be before depression before anxiety will I ever be that younger version of myself again I mean and I don't mean younger and the sense of literally younger because of course I know why I don't know [SPEAKER_01]: Because you have this way of looking at your past self and thinking, you know, she was spy, she was, could do things, she was, you know, brave, she was adventurous, and by my, you know, tired, I just want to sit at home and do nothing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of it is about coming to terms with recognizing that who you are is valid at any stage.

[SPEAKER_01]: To be a different version of yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a love story in the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is a romance He's called Luke He's a comagini guy He is he is a Grumpy comes across as cold magical historian who Sarah needs his help to translate a spell and he needs her help [SPEAKER_01]: finding a safe place for him and his sister to kind of be for a little while.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he has no intention of staying and, you know, spoiler alert, he does stay because the the the in kind of pulls him in the charm and the the acceptance and the love of the people who live there kind of draw him in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about before there was an accidental spell that Sarah put something in and the part of that is that people who come there, they come there, seeking something that the end gives them something that they need.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just I love that part of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I feel like that is [SPEAKER_00]: Some places a lot of people want to find, and I love that at the center of it is Sarah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But you mentioned spoilers.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have a little bit of a spoiler chat for our book club, so that if anyone who has not read it, give it a pause, give that episode a pause, but do read the book and come right back and press play.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was on say on pause, which is play.

[SPEAKER_00]: And join us for a little spoiler chat, but if you've already read the book, thanks for sticking with us.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much to be said about this book and how absolutely excellent it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: My copy is full of just underlined highlights, just like beautiful turns of phrases and emotions that just like you have this way of like just completely decimating me with like nine words that's just like Jeff's kiss amazing and I really want to know like what was your first idea that you had for this story and then what did you do with it once you had that idea?

[SPEAKER_01]: Ooh, you know, that's a really, like, you think that that would be a simple question to answer, but if for me it's tricky because I almost never started book with just one thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's a thing that's been in my head for like 15 years, just never really percolated or kind of like, [SPEAKER_01]: coalesced into something that I can use and sometimes it's something that just happens in the moment with this one I think I think what came first was the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know it came before the characters because I feel like I always knew it was going to be centered at and around this end and that was going to be a magical end and that was going to be a witch in keeper.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in writing it, the idea evolved, I mean, as they do, but in the first draft, the end, I sort of scaled down the magic in the end, that yes, some weird things happened, but Sarah was mostly, that the magic was centered around people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it didn't feel right to me, it didn't feel like it told the story I wanted to tell.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I keep coming back to this in that one of my favorite things in other fiction is like the concept of the sentient house, like a cottage or castle or whatever it is but like the fact that the home almost has a personality that can be the squabbling or the sibling you can be really interfering grandmother it can be you're kind of like a family member that's constantly in your [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I wanted this interview like.

[SPEAKER_01]: This welcoming, wonderful place, but that is simultaneously for Sarah, a reminder of all the things that she doesn't necessarily want to confront.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like this library or repository of memories.

[SPEAKER_01]: and it keeps them safe and then throws them out at her to deal with at times that she considers most inconvenient but for the house's perspective it's you need this now.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is when you should address this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes this is the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really loved that inclusion because there's a line in the beginning of her feeling echoes of herself and I was like oh that makes a lot of sense if you're in a place it's familiar of course you're going to feel [SPEAKER_00]: like the memories of you, but then to realize this is like actually something she's seeing and experiencing is the past versions of herself sort of haunting her.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit of Sarah's haunted house in some regards because it's so many past versions of herself.

[SPEAKER_00]: What made you pull that into, I guess, into her reality that it wasn't just something she was thinking about, that it was like actually the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: as much as it was pouring tea into Luke's room which like I'm gonna get my mug on Sundays that sounds amazing but what made you want to pull that into her reality rather than just keep it in her inner monologue.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I wanted it to feel like [SPEAKER_01]: because I think it's for her, it's such an interior thing, it's in her head, this sense, and also I think it is a huge part of that, and there's this sort of like overarching themes throughout the book of the way we see ourselves versus the way the people who love us see us, [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I needed those ghosts to be something that were visible to her and occasionally to other people because they would sort of capture that in a very visceral sense and she has this very fixed idea of what she thinks they are of these past versions and she sort of idealizes the version of herself as a teenager before she lost her magic.

[SPEAKER_01]: And absolutely sort of [SPEAKER_01]: Villanises, the version of herself that was extremely angry and depressed from a few years before the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: And her having these feelings about these versions of herself could have worked if it had been just in her head.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I wanted them to be out there, to confront her, because I think that was playing a huge part.

[SPEAKER_01]: They could sort of like, [SPEAKER_01]: a literal, like the opposite, opposite words, like a literal metaphor for the way she is so hard on herself, that she is constantly comparing herself to her past selves and constantly struggling with the fact that each time something happens to her, whether it's big or small, it chips away [SPEAKER_01]: she is lost, or that version of herself is lost each time, and there's a moment kind of later in the book where Luke sees, the version of herself that she considers to be the worst version [SPEAKER_01]: and he has this unconditional understanding and acceptance of that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That transforms the way she feels about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it like all her shame at that depression and that anger, kind of goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like I wanted to kind of see these things manifest in a physical sense as opposed to just in her head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I really loved that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I loved how much she really disliked that they were around and then comes around that they were like always there for her almost like band in her, but they were like, yeah, almost like it's really right here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's the complete sort of like it's like like the complete opposite perspective.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think so much of the book is about the way you look at things like you look at it one way and it's one thing and then if you [SPEAKER_01]: just change your perspective slightly.

[SPEAKER_01]: It becomes something completely different.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for her, she spends a long time thinking those ghosts exist because they're a constant reminder that she's not though that person anymore, but she's haunted by these versions of herself that are abandoned her.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she comes to understand that they're not there to say we left and you know, [SPEAKER_01]: they're there to say, we'd never left.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're here.

[SPEAKER_01]: We've been here all along.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you've never been alone.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are all of us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the most like, I wouldn't even call it necessarily romantic.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, I guess like building the romance between her and Luke is when he like reaches out to touch the ghost.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she almost has this reflection of like, I don't know if like, I can feel him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All of those emotions.

[SPEAKER_01]: It shouldn't be possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but she like wants that to be true and like I like pride through that whole scene just because I was like How beautiful that like he's going into what should be for anyone else falling in love in the regular world is Being vulnerable and showing so himself, but like he sees it before she like really allows him to Or almost maybe knowing that he was there anyway, and he just that's just more of her yeah, and it's quite simply beautiful.

[SPEAKER_00]: I loved it [SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to Sarah, losing her magic, she loses her magic in the first chapter, did you always know that by the end of the book, she was going to have given up her magic to protect everyone?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I did, that was always going to happen and I think it's potentially quite a divisive ending and I think [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of people won't like that she loses it again after spending most of the book trying to get it back.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think for me, there was a question of agency when she's 15 and she loses her magic.

[SPEAKER_01]: She loses it by accident.

[SPEAKER_01]: She makes a choice to resurrect her great arm from the dead, but she doesn't know what that choice will cost her.

[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't know that it means her magic will go and then in the end she makes a choice to protect the people she loves by giving up her magic And she knows what it's going to cost her and she does it anyway and I wanted to give her back that sense of agency that choice because [SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the day, I think there were other things she could have done.

[SPEAKER_01]: She may not have been able to kind of stop Albert in his tracks the way she did.

[SPEAKER_01]: She may not have been able to take away the thing that made him so powerful and threatening.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she could have done other things.

[SPEAKER_01]: She could have found another way.

[SPEAKER_01]: But she chose the way that to her.

[SPEAKER_01]: was fair and right and final, even if it meant that it cost her something as well, and it's a choice, it's a choice that she makes partly because she's backed into a corner, but also because she is choosing in that moment that the magic of all the other things that she has in her life over the magic that she thought was the most important thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I'll admit when she wouldn't be realized that like, she calls to Luke for the spell to steal people's magic.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, no, this is her giving everything up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, don't do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is what you've been wanting.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in like the reflection of it, it's like this whole book was building that she has so much other magic in her life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was really where we were going.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I could totally get how someone might not like that ending, and might want it to end differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in a different story, it might have, like, I'm a big fan of books where, you know, main characters, especially female characters, regain a huge amount of power and keep it.

[SPEAKER_01]: In this particular story, like you said, it was so much of it was about her discovering all the other kinds of magic out there, [SPEAKER_01]: True to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not end it that way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love a full circle moment.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love something like that where she First doesn't like you said she's making she's paying the cost of bringing Jasmine back Which like I think that even if she had known that that's what that was gonna do she probably would have done it anyway [SPEAKER_00]: because like what is her magic-filled life without Jasmine, like without the real magic in her life, and so much of this book was just building, like maybe it was for some people, it was building up to getting her magic back was the core of it, but it was, it was everyone else reminding her that like Nicholas in the beginning when he says, when she's talking about the in draws people in, and he said no, it's not the end of to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that you have to recognize that that's what's important to her but it's pretty so much of it is about recognizing that she is loved and enough with or without that magic it does like that does not make her who she is oh yeah that makes me want to cry what made Luke the Tin Man the perfect love interest for Sarah [SPEAKER_01]: she needed somebody who could kind of cut through a lot of her bullshit, but I think so much of the kind of her narrative kind of arc is recognizing that for all that she talks about the legend that the guild built up around her.

[SPEAKER_01]: like the way they mythologised her for having so much power.

[SPEAKER_01]: She brought into that too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she now considers herself significantly smaller and less than.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because she isn't that person anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she needed somebody like Luke who has this incredible way of just cutting to the heart of what's really going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who just, like, I mean, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he does that throughout the book.

[SPEAKER_01]: He kind of, he doesn't really stand for any of her, [SPEAKER_01]: even herself doubt with so much as like he does not accept.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we kind of see it with him and Jasmine, that Jasmine rightly or wrongly lets Sarah get away with thinking less of herself.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she calls her out on it but doesn't fundamentally change it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas Luke from the moment he gets there just has no.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like his opinion of her isn't even particularly great to start with, but he has a sort of a very keen way of looking at it that makes him recognize.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even when he realizes he was wrong about who she thought he was.

[SPEAKER_01]: He recognizes that so is she.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's wrong about who she thinks she is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she needed that and [SPEAKER_01]: I also really love the idea that on a superficial level I loved the grumpy grumpy Yeah, I love grumpy sunshine, but I loved grumpy grumpy I think just because I feel like I am double grumpy I'd like double grumpy grumpy era Yeah, but I loved that, but also unlike a slightly less superficial level I think I loved that they were both the source of people who were so [SPEAKER_01]: able to recognize the good and wonderful things about other people, but not about themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they needed kind of see each other through the other ones eyes to really come to terms with those things about themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I love that that's kind of this imperfectly matched on that level.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is funny that I love a grumpy coming.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love grumpy sunshine, but I love two people who are just exasperated with each other, but also very attracted to each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: One of my favorite parts is like you were saying that he's not particularly taken with her immediately, but I love that she's self-described as being cranky and he was like, oh yeah, but you're the one that's taking care of everyone.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're the one that's magically making Matilda's plants grow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, you sound really like [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he absolutely calls her out on that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the scene where she's sort of like why it's when her friend leaves his baby with her and she's like why I'm not nurturing it all and looks like that's yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that is literally you literally the most nurturing person who ever nurtured but sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I'm you're holding their baby very very very happily But baby loves you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's she's very yeah, I think a huge part of her thinking she's grumpy is her thinking She's grumpy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, necessarily grumpy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just almost this shield she uses to be really prickly Yeah, and bristle at any kind of challenge where is she's actually just a softy underneath [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's like fake grumpy, it's like Luke is actually because he's been described as like cold-hearted, aren't you?

[SPEAKER_00]: When he talks to people, he was described as the 10-man with no heart, but like boys that wrong, especially because of his sister, Posi, who is yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: a book club favorite with posey I will maybe it's because I am an ant now like I love children characters more now especially when they're really authentic like I feel like posey is really just like an authentic version of an autistic child who like is so taken by this in because it accepts her completely [SPEAKER_00]: and she comes here and she's so at home and I love so much that the strand of sunset when she's trying to show everyone that she cracked the code and everyone's like oh that's a great picture and she's like absolutely not.

[SPEAKER_00]: You guys don't understand how smart and wonderful I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's just livid at that point.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like I've given up on all adults.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are full.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are useless.

[SPEAKER_01]: You are useless and so she immediately tells [SPEAKER_01]: to Theo, the other child, and he understands her in making it look like the way they do.

[SPEAKER_00]: So cute genius.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's like, of course, you know, yes, there it is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so he translates for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's just like, if you roll just...

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that he speaks on behalf of both of them and it's like before I tell you this we're all getting extra cinnamon buns but I want to confirm before this is explained but I love that and to consider that Luke is heartless when really he's doing all this for his sister who he's reminded that he doesn't have to do that it's a sister but of course he's going to [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he is absolutely the, and you don't let my Flexera, he doesn't recognize what he's doing, because he doesn't think of it as anything particularly extraordinary.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as far as he's concerned, all he's doing is keeping his sister safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: from the same kind of judgment and restrictions and limitations that made him in his view what he is and he doesn't think a whole lot of himself.

[SPEAKER_01]: He thinks that he was changed in ways that weren't good and in some ways that's true that he was not allowed to be himself growing up the way and he wants different for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: and he in a lot of ways is far more willing to fight on her behalf than he ever was on his own.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that everybody sees that straight away, especially Sarah and just like the fact that you have bought into other people calling you cold and heartless is just outrageous to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about it already, but like one of the things that I wanted to mention was like one of my favorite themes throughout was how much the people who love you see you in a much brighter light than you see yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that exists in positively every character except for Albert, which we can talk about him in a minute.

[SPEAKER_00]: If ever there was a man who did not see himself the way he really is, oh gosh, he was absolutely Is there anything else like in the book that like thematically or just a detail that you really felt was important beyond that that you really wanted people to get from the book?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I mean more than anything what I want to be able to get from this book was that sense of welcome and comfort because I think we are, you know, again, to sort of deby down the situation where we're living in an extraordinarily intolerant time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: unwelcoming time and I think I wanted people to feel like there is a place for them in this book in this inn where the nomads who they are and that this is a place where they will feel welcome.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also really wanted to create characters who reflected the people I know and love, not necessarily, you know, like directly translating a character to another, but like drawing inspiration from them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, posey, I drew a lot of inspiration from one of my kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Theo, I drew a lot of inspiration.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another one of my...

Jasmine is very loosely based on but inspired by a great aunt of mine who isn't with us anymore but you know I adored her and I think part of the reason I wanted to do that was because I wanted to capture some of the things that still bring me joy or still bringing me joy at a time that doesn't feel joyful.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: and so I think joy is another thing that I hope people get out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's sort of thematically I think in a lot of ways it's a book about finding and not necessarily find a bit fighting for your right to be happy to be joyful even when you know the world or your family or your environment might be telling you that you can't and you shouldn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a bit fighting for your right to live the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: you want to.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and like that's I feel like that's everything that the in represents right there, especially when you're talking about Sarah herself identifying its grumpy and I think that like my brain is fighting against that because every person that leaves her feels more joy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like all of her friends keep coming back to her, like Malik, one of my favorite characters.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just a little side friend who shows up in several scenes, but like one of my favorites just because he just keeps coming back to her because she fills his life with so much joy, so much understanding.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that is so true of just like what the Inn is bringing to people, like the spell that was cast pulls people in who need to be seen, who need to be understood, who need to find a family who understands them when the world and many families are not understanding of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it also, you know, I mean, and this is probably, this is the bit where it's less kind of realistic.

[SPEAKER_01]: It also repels people who would do them harm.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is like such a fundamental part of Sarah's character, that even when grumpy, even when angry, [SPEAKER_01]: her instinct is to defend what she loves not to attack, what she like, you know, like I think Luke is the one who sort of says that even when you were in a rage, the spell you cast by accident, it was a shield not a sword.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that's a bit short of the book as well, that idea that, I mean, I don't get me wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: There are absolutely times when we need a sword, but sometimes what we need is protection.

[SPEAKER_01]: Someone who will fight to defend us, not fight to harm.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we have in this, in this, at the end.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think what's interesting about Shield versus Sword is that a lot of the people who are attracted to the inn probably exist in that state of maybe needing a sword, but not even one strong enough, just finally finding someone who has a shield that can stand behind as probably you're very relaxing, very nice feeling to have.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anyone in the inn that like you love to write in particular or that you were most proud of the way that they came out on page?

[SPEAKER_01]: I loved, I think I was really proud of Posey, because she was very, very hard to write.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to sort of speak, look at at no point in the book, does anyone kind of speak for?

[SPEAKER_01]: We don't try and get in her head, we don't try to imagine what she might be thinking, we just sort of interpret based on the way.

[SPEAKER_01]: the best you can.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was very mindful of the fact that I don't know because I don't know what a pre-verbal autistic child is thinking.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what my son is thinking and I don't try to speak for him just to interpret what he is saying based on the way he is behaving.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they try to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was quite proud of the fact that Posey came out onto the page so happy and lovely and vivid and I very much hope feels true to not by no means not to every autistic person because that's not possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a spectrum for a reason, but to some and so it was I was, you know, I'm proud of the way she turned out.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also I love I love writing Matilda.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I loved the writing clever too to be honest like many different ways because Matilda's very the both very opinionated one of them is perhaps more obnoxious than the other but they were both very fun to write [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's hard to be more obnoxious than the other when like, you're a fox, so like that's already pretty obnoxious.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my favorite thing about Matilda is like, she kind of just accepts the magic.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, yeah, this is happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is fine, Nicholas.

[SPEAKER_01]: They both very, I think that's the fundamental reason, the kind of the way they stay, the reason they stay is because they are at heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: people who are willing to accept things beyond their can.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're just fundamentally open, hearted, welcoming people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why they're in works because everybody there is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: In that sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: And...

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's kind of just rolls with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's not much that really phases her.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's seen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was a seed where she sees Pozy levitating and she's just like, it's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can accept this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I will take it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can take it.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one needs to explain it's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've got it, no worries.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the same vein of the in accepting people, if you know where the end is, you can find it, unfortunately, in the case of Albert Gray.

[SPEAKER_00]: We just talked about him briefly, but I want to talk about him in the sense of, is it fun for you to write someone who is just a villain?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is just a villainous man.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how someone can come on the page and [SPEAKER_00]: and feel empathetic for him like feel sympathy like you're in the wrong book if you've read this and like he has a point So I'm a big most of the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am a big fan of villains with more nuance vines with sort of you know shades of gray There are absolutely villains that are irredeemable and then there are villains who are redeemable [SPEAKER_01]: but I before both of these books I wrote a sort of a space opera trilogy that had a lot of villains who were many shades of gray and I really enjoyed that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in this particular book and Albert in particular he was very much meant to stand for the quintessential wealthy [SPEAKER_01]: powerful white man who is unsatisfied with the power he already has.

[SPEAKER_01]: Constantly once more comes from an extremely privileged background, has never really had to question his place in the world and sort of falls upwards, constantly.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say question is placed in the world until he comes across a child, and yes, in which case he's like, actually, I'm going to put this child down as a result of feeling threatened.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that that is there are far too many people in positions of power today in the real world who behave in exactly the same way, who are constantly seeking more power and [SPEAKER_01]: view is a threat, usually punching down.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never see because these people are at the apex of power and so they never punching up.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are constantly punching down and I very much want to kind of represent that with Albert and I don't really think that there's anything redeemable.

[SPEAKER_01]: about somebody who is so intrinsically certain of his own superiority, so bigoted, so determined to crush any resistance, and so I didn't feel like giving, I don't think he was not the character I wanted to give any new ones to, because I don't feel particularly forgiving or generous of characters like him in real life.

[SPEAKER_00]: What I find very interesting and like not in any way for giving of him, maybe more so of Sarah, is that one of her best friends growing up naturally was his daughter, Francesca, and that it just made sense that she would of course gravitate towards the nearest.

[SPEAKER_00]: Child and it's of course his and I think one of the things that shocked me the most was early in the book when she comes because of course Theo and glummy went to steal the book and she comes if she finds her way coming to get it back and she apologizes Very early in the book and I was like whoa Okay, yeah, was this Sarah's effect was this how did how did this person not turn to her father?

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things about a book like this is that there's a lot of side stories you could tell and you can't go into all of them and I think Francesca's story would be interesting because it does take a lot to unlearn and separate yourself from a lifetime of privilege and indoctrination and like Nicholas does it, Nicholas does the same thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: He breaks away because he recognizes [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't quite as far along the road as he is, but she is able to recognize, if not necessarily the fundamental problems with the system, but with her own father, because she is not exempt from his borderline abusive behavior, either, she feels it too, and I don't think it's a coincidence that [SPEAKER_01]: She starts to stand up to him after she's had children of her own because I think she recognizes that the way he treats them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Much like Luke she is far more willing to fight for somebody she loves than she is for herself.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's one more able to recognize the harm when she sees it directly at her children.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so she does, she does apologize for what she did.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think in that moment sort of Sarah, who has carried understandably a grudge for a very long time, recognizes that they were both kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were both 15 and maybe it wasn't what Francesca did [SPEAKER_01]: This was her dad and she'd been effectively indoctrinated into this cult of great superiority.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she had a very muddy understanding that was clear to someone.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, it's right and wrong about what she should do with information that Sarah gave her.

[SPEAKER_00]: So she's persuaded the bathroom and then her dad suddenly shows up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, how, how could you do this to her?

[SPEAKER_01]: How could you do that to your best friend?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah does carry that with her for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, again, I think it's like it is worth noting.

[SPEAKER_01]: The French aspect could have apologized at any point.

[SPEAKER_01]: but she doesn't until she's finally sort of in a position where she has to deal with Sarah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of what gives her that final nudge to do so.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she's not, I wouldn't say she's completely, it's completely blameless.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's absolutely part of the system.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think she is one of the few who is willing to reassess the system.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it probably takes that long to come out of it like if you have been spent your whole childhood with a father like that to like reach even early adulthood that you're like trying to figure out how to question it but it's not until you have your own people to protect.

[SPEAKER_00]: But ultimately she's the one who kind of kicks off what Sarah's journey is by letting her do this.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of see at the end that while it's not fixed, there is a possibility that they will regain some of their friendship and build it again.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that that's just why I feel like this is so perfectly suited for Gilmore Girls fans, because like, there is the Hydroma where they're fighting, there's like the problems that Emily and Laura, I have, mother and daughter, but then it's just like that cozy town that pulls you in, that makes you feel safe, and you can be the corkiest person in town, and you probably still won't be the weirdest.

[SPEAKER_00]: the the last thing is what do you think is the hardest thing for you about this book to get right and what was maybe the proudest that you were about something, it was could be the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh I mean I think both, I think they're both the same on so which is sort of Sarah's kind of journey with [SPEAKER_01]: sense of identity and mental health.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think just writing that was incredibly hard kind of like diving deep into the many ways in which she has struggled over time and like a mental illness is not something that just goes away and about dealing with that and how she comes out of it at the end.

[SPEAKER_01]: Understanding that she's not fixed and she might always feel a little bit [SPEAKER_01]: not right, not hat, not be a little depressed, maybe a little anxious, maybe a little angry, just something that doesn't feel right, but that she can deal with it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think more than anything it's that, as she comes out with an understanding that it's okay, she has, she has felt worse and survived it, she has felt bad and survived it and maybe she'll feel bad again and she'll [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that was what I was hardest to write, but definitely a theme that meant a lot to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think you nailed it, I think this is the perfect book for anyone right now who's feeling that way that like you can move through this magical world that ultimately feels a lot more real than it does not in my opinion.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I did want to read to you one of my favorite quotes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I like truly like every time I talk about it, I even know exactly what page it's on because I love it so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's Nicholas and Sarah, they're talking about Luke and whether or not he's going to stay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if he is like Luke and she says, trust me, Nicholas, Luke's not like you.

[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't have to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have a way about you and makes us want to stay.

[SPEAKER_00]: The intends to do that Sarah said without thinking, no, Nicholas said earnestly, not the in you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I was thinking about that earlier today, I really realized just how much that I feel like encapsulates you as a writer, at least to me in our book club, because having read the very secret society of a regular witch is Austria.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then hearing that your next book was about an inn.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, this is perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: The dragonfly inn, this is gonna align so magically.

[SPEAKER_00]: Every book can have an inn in it, but it was you and you're writing and what you brought to your last book that really made me want to read this next one.

[SPEAKER_00]: So in the end it is the end, but it is really about you and the world that you create and the words that you used to write that world.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we just knew glad to have you here.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm so glad to be here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for saying that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, speaking of next books.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there an next book?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you a book a year person or are we just not talking about it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, I mean, we have not, there is no release date.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I would not go.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's a book a year person.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's a three a gap between these and I will not be that long.

[SPEAKER_01]: I very much.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do have.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is another book and I it is another cozy which you romantic book.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's poopy like I'm saying, but it's, it's happening, it's, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's, that's really all we need to know because I'm willing to wait patiently.

[SPEAKER_00]: For whatever it is, you have magically brewing up for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine we'll see some magical crocheting to be determined.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, I mean, the odds are very high.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I love it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the last question I have for you is one that actually the answer to is often your books.

[SPEAKER_00]: But the question is, what is a book you would recommend for Gilmour Girls fans?

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like there is, I have to admit, I haven't read it, but there is a book called, it's called the Pumpkin Spice Cafe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it feels like it was written 4 Gilmour Girls fans, 4 Gilmour Girls fan.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a very good chance that that one would be right up your street.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for one I've actually a have read, I mean of course I highly recommend house-moving castle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but I don't know that it's necessarily Gilmore Girls-ish.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great rack.

[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't read it yet either, but it gets recommended to me a lot, so.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's on my list.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just haven't really yet, yeah, but it does and it does look like it would absolutely be a Gilmore Girls-esque book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just the coffee shop, the cafe, that's that's perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you do, if you did love or would just guide magical and keeping go back and read the very secret society of regular witches, you will love that one just as much as you loved this one.

[SPEAKER_00]: But thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining us today.

[SPEAKER_00]: This was an absolute magical treat.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER_00]: My book Loving Besties, thank you so much for joining me today for another episode of Gilmour to Read.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to join the Book Club conversation, head over to Patreon where you can join for free.

[SPEAKER_00]: For October, we are reading Love Is A Worsung by Danica Navra.

[SPEAKER_00]: My next guest will be Julie Olivia, followed by some other spectacular authors.

[SPEAKER_00]: But until then, happy reading friends!