This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio.

My guest today is a journalist, author, and news anchor, widely recognized for his sharp political interviews and moderating recent US presidential debates.

Jake Tapper is currently the Washington anchor for CNN and weekday host of the Lead with Jake Tapper.

He is also co host of the Sunday morning political roundtable State of the Union.

Tapper's work as a broadcast journalist has earned him two Emmy Awards.

He is also a recipient of the prestigious Edward R.

Murrow Award for Outstanding Achievements in Broadcast and Digital Journalism.

In addition to his work as a reporter, Jake Tapper is also a best selling author of political thrillers and nonfiction, known for his directness and tough critique.

Curious how Jake Tapper would critique himself?

Yeah, brutally.

There's no one that I'm tougher on than me, is the truth.

I'm a flagellator, a self flagellator, Like as if it's one of those scenes that you see in Iran every now and then where Shia are flagellating themselves.

It is.

It is a daily event.

No one is tougher on me than me.

Your career is so vast, all the writing and the work you did before you landed it to ABC first we were on camera first with ABC or somebody else.

Full time ABC?

Yeah, I mean there was there's little things here and there, but full time job, yes, ABC News.

Do you go back to look at your work and evaluate yourself to try to fix it?

Well, I'm lucky enough that I have a daily show so that every possible mistake I could make is pointed out to me in real time.

By do they really give you a direction?

By the no, by I'm talking about like the masses on.

So I tend to think that my flaws as a broadcaster are more in holding back than in going in too much.

There there are times that I think I went too far, but generally speaking, there is the imperative in broadcasting that you know and you know this, but like, okay, we got to take a commercial break, Okay, we got on to the next.

Like it's almost as if you as soon as you have a guest, even if it's a huge guest, there's almost like an excitement for it to be over.

That's just like cable news.

So sometimes I get too wrapped up in what I'm being told and not focused enough on what I'm experiencing and what the interviewee is saying.

And there are times that I wish that I had plunged in more.

The mistakes I make tend to be one of three or four that I make over and over and over again.

So when you're doing the lead your show, your signature show with CNN, are there producers or who work with you they shaped the program or is the content of the program essentially your call.

It's a combination of both, but it's I mean, it's without question, it's a huge team effort, like right now.

So I had my first call at eight thirty in the morning with my two top producers, my executive producer and my senior broadcast producer, and then we talk about what we want to be in the show, and we discuss things that we think need to be in the show today.

Obviously, as we're in the midst of this presidential decision about whether or not to drop a massive bomb on a mountain or a facility in Iran, and so it's a little different than the average day, and we talk about the guests that we already have lined up, and we talk about what we want to ask them or what I want to ask them, and then it gets assigned to producers.

And we have a producing team of about twenty or so, and each person gets their own assignment or two for a block or two, and then we go over it all at roughly two hours before the show, so three o'clock for a five o'clock show.

And sometimes I'm weighing in the whole time, and sometimes I'm talking to people about what I want in there.

And obviously we adjust as the day goes on because of news developing, such as a Supreme Court decision or whatever.

It's my show.

But like with a team of smart people who push back on me, who offer their ideas, and in that conflict and tens, I think we get to a good place.

Obviously, the show and your staff, your producers, and people who do the show with you, they have bosses as well.

Do they leave you alone?

When do you?

I mean you see what happened to Terry Moran?

Are you left alone by the powers that be?

At Wanner Discovery?

Pretty much every now and David Zaslov would be the big cheese sure, and then we have a new one for the split that doing Gunner, but I don't talk to them on a regular basis.

It's more it would be more Sir Mark Thompson, who's the head of CNN, but even he is pretty hands off.

And then there's a layer of executives there too.

It's more, here is what we have, Here is what we have been putting together with our reporters, and here's where we have reporters on the scene, and this is what we think.

But you guys do your own shows, and that people might suggest something like if I were leading today with a story about the New York Mets or something, I'm sure if people would say, what what are you doing?

But as a general rule, they leave us pretty much alone.

In terms of the Terry Moran thing, I don't get a lot of feedback on my social media.

I tend to not opine as much.

I tend to think that if I have some thought, that it's better that I do it on TV than if I do it on social media.

And that is a I think it's a healthy way to do it, because A it means that you can do it with the whole context and proving the point you want with clips and with evidence.

And also it means that other people can have their eyeballs on it and it can be the best presentation.

And I happen to think a good like four or five minute piece that you might do or a tell or like we're preparing one today for the decision that President Trump has in front of him right now.

And I think that that would be better.

I think that will be better than if I just kind of just shared my random thoughts on my own and put it on social media.

Right right, Well, I mean, of course, people would go to CNN for the news, yeah, and they wouldn't want to watch breaking news, and they would watch MSNBC.

If you're of a certain leaning, you'd watch MSNBC for the commentary, right, And people seem to pivot between the two.

Do you feel that that's still the case though, Do you feel that people are coming to CNN largely for breaking news and going to MSNBC for opinion or you don't think that's any longer the case.

We do have overlap with Fox and ms I think so.

I also think that there is a degree to which sometimes people don't want to hear certain news, and so they might go to a channel that preaches to the choir.

Look, the preaching to the choir business model or opinion slash analysis business model is a lucrative one.

I think that I hope that there's always going to be room for a news a case, news network.

In these days we're broadcast.

News is not what it was ten years ago or twenty years ago in terms of foreign coverage, in terms of that sort of thing.

I mean, I worked under Peter Jennings at World News tonight and that was yeah, and a very different show than what they put on now.

I hope that there is always going to be a market for it.

I don't know that there will be, but I think and hope that there will be.

But we'll have to see.

I mean, the world is evolving in such crazy ways when it comes to the consumption of all media.

It's affecting your world as much as it's affecting my world.

It's affecting publishing.

I've written seven books, and the way that publishers look at ebooks and audiobooks today is significantly different than five years ago.

Now there is this real recognition that people are not reading hardcover books as much as they used to.

That people are listening to books and reading them on their phones is just as much.

Now you are on the air during the week and everybody I know watches your show.

They're all fans of the lead with you and CNN, and then you're on on the weekend as well.

Correct.

Yeah, I mean Dana Bash and I split State of the Union on Sunday, So sometimes it's her, sometimes it's May.

But yeah, different demographic for those shows, different producers.

Yes, completely different team.

I mean there's overlap in terms of sometimes somebody will leave the lead and go work with State of the Union or vice versa.

But yes, and different hours and a completely different task.

A Sunday show is one that is not necessarily as driven by what is going on today.

It's driven maybe more like what's the conversation of the week.

So for instance, Dana, it's State of the Union earlier this week, and you know, the story of that day was Iran.

But she covered other things too that had gone including you know, legislation and stuff on the hill.

So it's a little bit different that you also have more time to breathe.

An eight or nine minute interview on Sunday is fine.

An eight or nine minute interview on the lead during the week is long.

Yeah, well you're doing this job now on the air.

You were with ABC on the air for how many.

Years from two thousand and two to twenty thirteen or something like.

That, right, and then even with ce an incense, Yes, when you moved over.

Directly, I wanted to anchor.

That's what I wanted to do.

And you you've anchored, so you know the joy and the challenges of anchoring.

But is it is it is played an anchor.

No, I'm kidding.

Yeah, well you know, but you anchored a show and it was interesting.

But you know what I mean, Like, you want to anchor a show as opposed to report for a show.

And one of the reasons I wanted to do it is so the reported pieces I do could be as long as I wanted them to, as opposed to well, as long as an anchor wanted them to be.

But when I did the show one I did for MSNBC, I just wanted to do a straight interview show.

My model and I say this was no facetiousness.

Was Tom Snyder.

Snider was a great interviewer.

Yeah, well, I want to have a nice hour long conversation with somebody who's worth that investment of time, and not get anybody like you.

Tell me who you are, You tell me what people aren't saying about You, tell me all about your work and your view of it.

This is a chance for people to say whatever they wanted to say.

I don't know why that's gone.

I agree with you that Tom Snyder model, the Charlie Rose model, Tim Russer.

Tim Russer used to have a show like that on CNBC, I think, and he would do extended interviews with people who maybe didn't rise to the meet the press level, like Donald Trump in the early aughts, and then you could mind those interviews much later.

And in fact, at one point I was talking to Jeff Zuker when he was my boss at CNN, about would I do a show like that at HLN back when HLN still was what HLN was, and just so there would be a show where we could do extended hour long interviews.

And it was a really interesting idea and then it just never happened.

But I agree with you, I would watch a show like that.

I think those are basically podcasts now.

I guess broadcasting exact broadcasting doesn't do them anymore.

I don't know why.

And you could do the show, I said, put me on a two in the morning, I don't care.

Yeah, and then we'll stream the audio as a podcast.

Or inside the actors Studio.

Was that was that too?

Yeah?

And they're they're very upset that that's gone.

It was really a.

Great It was a great show.

And I don't know why it doesn't exist anymore.

If Jim died, yeah he does, well, I.

Know Jim died, but but the the conceit of it is still so smart.

But why why doesn't it exist?

And I can only think I know that people have looked into it and the conclusion is just it's just too expensive for that.

They just don't think it will rate.

The other thing, and I hate to say this, but the people who make decisions like this don't think that getting an actor over the age of sixty will draw any viewers.

And it's crazy to me because like I could watch an interview with Gene Hackman or Morgan Freeman or Alan Alda or whatever, But like, I guess that's just the mindset these days.

Well, if you're when you're ready to host inside the actors, studio or reboot.

I'm going to call you.

Okay, we'll make a deal with CNN and you can call it.

We'll call you now.

You've been in this, doing this since you said two thousand and three.

Thank god, what you've seen and the changes you've seen.

Yeah, and it must be so I don't know what the word is, and not alarming, but maybe even exhausting.

Almost every day in the world we live in right now, and since you know who I would imagine is it just feels like the world is hanging on by its fingernails.

It feels like that President Trump has a way of turning on a fire hose of activity that does make it especially challenging to figure out what to cover, what not to cover.

Somebody asked me the other day about a decision I made to not cover a social media post of the president.

So it was when he retruthed that crazy post about Biden was assassinated and he's been replaced by clones or something like that.

I'm sure you saw.

And this person said, you know, any other in any other situation that would be like the front page of the New York Times that the president would put forward such an unhinged theory, and I agree with it.

But also I think one of the lessons I learned from the first Trump term is don't follow the tweets, follow the activities the actions.

The actions are more important than the words.

And right now, the actions and the words are about whether or not he's going to authorize a bombing of the Fodah plant in Iran.

But also you have all these deportations, you have this litigation having to do with universities, you have this lawsuit against Paramount Slash CBS News, and I just think that the actions are more important than the words.

But it does feel like an especially crazy and perilous time.

No question.

My wonder when I looked at that whole thing with the Harvard and so forth, is there a corresponding attack on conservative colleges?

Does Liberty University get the same treatment as Harvard?

Have they been pursuing this blindly or are they only focusing, as one might easily guess, on liberal universities.

They've only focused on Ivy League University, and I think they're looking at the University of California system.

I mean, they're obviously picking their targets according to I mean, they would argue that they're picking their targets according to where has there been DEI, where has there not been enough civil rights protections for Jewish students in the wake of the protests.

But I think they're pretty cleverly picking avatars for that which the MAGA world hates universities, especially Harvard.

I mean, there just is something about them going after Harvard more than Yale that is particularly inciting of the base that hates Harvard, even those who went to Harvard, you know.

I mean, your dad went to Harvard Medical School.

My dad went to Harvard Medical School.

Is he still around?

Your dad?

He is?

He's eighty five years old.

My god, what does he think of all this?

Oh he's an old died in the wool lefty.

He has a nickname for Trump that I won't repeat.

Yeah, he's not a fan of this.

You know.

He came of age and his skepticism about power really influenced me growing up.

And it wasn't partisan because he hated LBJ, but his skepticism about the Vietnam War was very influential.

So I was born in nineteen sixty nine, so the Vietnam War went on until seventy four.

Seventy five, and that and Watergate were hugely influential parts of my very very early childhood, and how much he hated the Democratic mayor of Philadelphia where I grew up, Frank Rizzo, who was a former police chief, a police commissioner, and the like.

Did your parents divorce affect you in any way in terms of your career?

I think, you know, funny, I think that I was talking about this the other day.

So we had a president at CNN named Chris Licht who was rather short lived after David Zaslov came in and Warner Brothers Discovery took over CNN, and I was trying internally to help make that work towards the end when it wasn't working and before Chris left.

I think that is part of my being a child of divorce, that I was trying to make this work even though very few people I think, wanted to make it work anymore towards the end, and obviously it didn't.

But I mean, I think that trying to make a relationship work even when it's over, I think that's the root of it.

But I have very good relationship with both my parents, and they're both still alive.

My mom actually just moved down from Philadelphia to Washington, d C.

To a retirement home right near us, so I see her at least once a week.

And yeah, they're still alive and kick and they're in their eighties.

Eighty two and eighty five.

Washington and Philadelphia, I mean, I would imagine an a of fact I know from people that I know done.

I love Philadelphia.

Yeah, I love Philly and I love Philly.

It's New York without the ego, but those societies and that kind of realm.

Yes, Washington's Washington, but it isn't that much different, are they.

Did you find it difficult to adjust to living in Washington full time?

I didn't find it difficult, But they're very different.

Philadelphia is a city of neighborhoods and different ethnicities.

You know, there's a Vietnamese neighborhood, a Chinese neighborhood, a Jewish neighborhood, of Polish, Italian, on and on, and you know, it's a city of allegiances to Philadelphia.

It's one of the reasons why it's so fun to be a Philadelphia sports fan.

Sometimes Philadelphia sports Sorry, I'm one of them.

And if I panned up my camera you'd see all the memorability you want to see it.

But Washington is very much a company town.

Washington reminds me more.

I lived in Los Angeles, very very briefly.

After college.

I went to film school.

I went to USC Film School for one semester, and I found even though I know Los Angeles is not Hollywood and I'm well aware of how huge Los Angeles is and how it's not just the industry, but I was at film school, so I was in the industry world of it.

And DC feels a lot like that.

To me.

It's a it's a company town and it's tough, and I think LA is the same way.

We went to see You lasted one semester.

Why one semester?

But first of all I went into I wanted to be a writer and maybe director.

The truth is, I didn't know what I wanted to do after college.

And all my friends were going to law school, and I had taken some film classes and I really liked them, and I was interested in film.

And this was like the era of Spike Lee and John Singleton and you know, the autor Quentin Tarantino, and there was this kind of romance about it.

And again, I didn't know what I wanted to do.

My dad maybe pay for it.

That's one of the reasons why it only lasted one semester, because I was paying for it, so it's like, okay, And then after a while I didn't.

Ever even became clear real quickly.

Well, I didn't know.

First of all, I didn't even know that that's what I wanted to do, and you know, it just it just seemed questionable to me that I should spend my money on that.

Also, just the first year out of college is for me at least, and I think for a lot of people, it's just such a miserable time.

And I didn't know what I I didn't become a full time journalist until I was like twenty nine, so it took me a little while of running around in the wilderness.

Journalist and author Jake Tapper.

If you enjoy conversations with journalists, check out my episode with the former executive editor of The New York Times, Jill Abramson.

There's a traditional separation between the editorial department and the editorial views of the paper.

And newsgathering and news.

Gathering, but you know, a lot of people don't know that even a lot of political people in Washington didn't know it.

So in Washington it was actually it advantaged me because in nineteen ninety four, for example, when Gingrich took over the House, like there were Republicans who would gladly talk to me.

To hear more of my conversation with Jill Abramson, go to Here's the Dot Org.

After the break, Jake Tapper talks about the genesis of his latest book, entitled Original Sin, President Biden's decline, its cover up, and his disastrous choice to run again.

I'm Malec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

Jake Tapper is currently CNN's lead Washington anchor and chief correspondent.

Tapper hosts both an evening show during the week and co host State of the Union on Sunday mornings.

In addition to his relentless television schedule, Tapper has written five novels and recently published a sixth nonfiction book titled Original Sin.

I was curious how Tapper finds the time to write while staying on top of America's political news.

It's just a constant thing.

I always have either my laptop or something with me, a computer of some sort an iPad right now, because I'm working on an artistic book.

Everyone in my office, my producers, I didn't know this.

They introduced me to the idea that you're quite the illustrator.

Yeah, I don't know how good I am, but I try.

And I'm writing right now a graphic novel.

Except it's not a novel.

It's nonfiction of about Klaus Barbie, the Nazi ah and the hunt for him and all that.

But in any case, no, it's just non stop writing.

What was his nickname?

Me and the butcher of what?

The Butcher of Leon Leon?

Yeah, the Butcher of Leon.

Good memory.

It's really a fascinating story.

But the writing is just NonStop, whether it's Google docs or word I'm just always working and I do a lot in the morning.

Actually.

So when a book idea comes into your mind, and I'm sure, like a lot of writers, there's multiple ideas and some are rejecting and so forth, you do the book about Biden original sin.

What was the genesis of that?

The genesis was that we all went through this crazy the debate, which I happened to have a front row seat two and it obviously shocked everybody how bad he was, and I wanted to know, Okay, well, what really happened here?

How bad was it behind the scenes, because there's no way this just happened that moment, and there had been a little reporting about it, but not a ton.

And I said to my agent before the election, I think Trump's going to win, and I think people are going to be wanting to figure out why that happened, and talking to Democrats, they think the original sin was that Biden shouldn't have never run for reelection, and then he should never have tried to hide his diminishment.

And then after the election I hooked up with Alex Thompson of Axios and we got to work on it.

But it was really just one of these books were like I wanted to know the answer.

I would have been happy to read about it, but because nobody else was writing it, I decided to write it.

So usc you decide you have to pay for it, that's the end, the vicious ending of your movie career.

Well, except I wrote a book about Afghanistan.

They turned into a movie and I was an executive producer on that, so it's not the vicious end of it.

It's just the pause of my director's.

Chair tell us about that movie, that book in that movie.

So the book is The Outpost, and it was one of these books that I wrote that I would have gladly just read, but nobody was telling the story.

It was about an outpost that was overrun in Afghanistan in October third, two thousand and nine.

It was built at the bottom of three steep mountains and it was the deadliest day for America in Afghanistan that year, two thousand and nine.

And after I was in the hospital room because my son had just been born the day before, and I was watching news reports about this outpost and nobody could explain why it was built at the bottom of three steep mountains in this treacherous corner of Afghanistan, right near the Pakistan border.

And I waited for somebody to explain it to me, and nobody ever did months and months and months, and then I started asking questions and making phone calls, and then it became this book about the existence of this outpost.

And then other people started reaching out who had served the outpost, hearing that I was writing this book because I was just going to focus on the battle in two thousand and nine, and they would say oh no, I you know, we were in charge of building the outpost in two thousand and six and let me ex tell you our story.

And then it just became this bigger book.

It became kind of a metaphor for the war and the existence of this outpost and the good intentions behind it and why it was obviously such a mistake in the end.

And they turned that into a film.

Rod Luriy directed it.

It was a Caleb Landry Jones and Orlando Bloom and Scott Eastwood.

Clint Eastwood's son did a good castme yes, Scott and Milo Gibson was in a two Mel Gibson's son and.

It was good.

It was a good movie.

He did a really good job Rod, and it was very authentic and a lot of people who served there and served at other places find that movie really meaningful and well done.

It was supposed to debut at the south By Southwest Festival in March twenty twenty, and then COVID shut it down.

So now as many people know about the film, but it's out there stream.

Last I saw it was on Netflix.

I think you'd like it.

I mean, it's it's really it's really well done.

Now do you have to kind of get off of a train I'm assuming to write a book.

I mean, you just you just steal the moments.

I steal the moments.

And for me, I don't know how you wrote yours, but for me, structure is the most important part of writing a book, whether it's fiction or nonfiction.

And I've written the three novels too, although I find I'm going to talk.

To about that.

I find non fiction much easier.

Of course it's what I do day in, day out, but it's but fiction I find much more difficult.

Do you enjoy it fiction?

I do?

Do you wish I had more time for it?

No?

I don't.

I don't.

But you wrote a series of about about a couple.

I wrote a series of murder mysteries.

Yeah.

I wrote a series Charlie and Margaret Martyr.

The first one is The hell Fire Club, takes place during the Joe McCarthy years.

The second one is The Devil May Dance, takes place during the rat Pack years.

And the third one is All the Demons Are Here.

It takes place in in nineteen seventy seven.

And actually right now I'm talking to I've I'm working with some folks out in Hollywood about turning the second one, the rat Pack one, into a possible streamer.

Was there a period there where You're saying to your wife, no, honey, I gotta go to Vegas.

It's research for my book.

I got it.

There's only I don't think actually we have that many scenes in Vegas.

It's mostly palm springs in la But you know, I wrote that actually during COVID, and that was fun to write because you know, I'd be dealing with COVID.

This is back when I was broadcasting from my garage, you know, above the garage during COVID, when like studios were shut down, like from March twenty twenty to August twenty twenty, I was broadcasting from home and during that period where I had free time because there was no commute and you know, our kids were being educated at home educated quote unquote, I would write a scene and then I would come back to reality.

And it was very enjoyable because it was just like I'd just spent two hours eating Italian food with the rat Pack and that was a great rescue and respite from the horror of that era.

I did this gambling movie called The Cooler, and I got nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actor.

And I go to dinner at this famous joint.

It's a great movie.

That's William H.

Macy right, yeah, Bill Macy Yeah.

And the guy that directed it was a great guy who I just loved him, Wayne Kramer.

I'm going into this restaurant after the Oscars to have dinner and there's Tina Sinatra.

Oh wow, not Nancy.

There's Tina Sonata with a bevy of people at the table, and she goes, somebody get this kid a script.

Kid.

I was like, you know what the ninth This is two thousand and three.

I was in my forties, So you go, somebody get this kid a script.

He should play pop in a movie.

You should play my pop in a movie.

I'm going, oh my god.

I met her too.

I met Tina too.

She came up to me.

I was in La and she came up to me.

I was like waiting outside a restaurant, and I told her, you know, I'm like, hey, I wrote this book and your dad's a character in it.

And I sent her a copy of her of the book, and she sent me a copy of hers.

My portrayal of him was not as a bad guy, but certainly he was.

He was a dark figure with suicide attempts and all sorts of did he really Oh yeah, you know what I learned about him when researching my book is really interesting.

Ava Gardner really broke his heart and he tried god suicide.

But you know, one of the things about Sinatra that people don't realize is the degree to what he and JFK broke up.

And in fact, in that famous birthday party for President Kennedy at Madison Square Garden and she sings when Rolyn Monroe sings, and she's drunk and pilled out and just a complete mess.

And if you watch the whole thing, not just like the sexy clip, if you watch the whole thing, you'll say she's a complete and utter disaster.

And she dies a few months later.

But Sinatra's not there.

Frank Sinatra is not there, and it's because they had this breakup.

And this is kind of like what inspired me to write this book.

JFK is going out to California, He's going out to la This is a true story, and Sinatra wants him to stay at his Rancho mirage right near pul Springs estate and he builds a helipad, and he has additional rooms added and he has phone lines put in for the press, and people at the FBI tell Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General, you can't be waging war against the mob.

And then your brother goes to Sinatra's house like Sinatra's he has mob ties.

You know, he's legitimately got mob tized, which he did.

Sam Gankanna and others were friends of his.

And at that point, Sinatra's connection to the Kennedy family is over because the father had the stroke in December nineteen sixty two.

That was his real that was his close connection to the family.

And Bobby, who Sinatra hated, and who hated Sinatra.

He Kai bashes the visit.

So Kennedy stays with like bing cross be like the ultimate insult and exactly and the guy who can really see and Sinatra when he gets the news, he loses his shit and he takes a sledgehammer to the helipad.

And when I heard this story, and it's a true story, when I heard it, I was like, oh my god, I have to set my next novel in this, and so I did.

That's what The devil My Dance is about.

But in any case, Like I just couldn't even that's a movie.

I know, I couldn't even believe it.

And it's just like but but people don't realize the degree to which they like they ended on bad terms that when Kennedy got assassinated, he and Sinatra we're not friends anymore.

I have a theory about him, a funny theory.

And I'm ashamed to admit this or embarrassed, but not really.

And I thought, here's a guy I could have been best friends with him.

I could have been best friend.

Want to know what, because I would have told him the truth.

Yeah, I would have said, don't do that, don't say this, don't you You're You're a person who is you are a god in the music industry.

Now, like a lot a lot of guys get so big in their career, they don't want that.

Right.

We all need it.

We all need it.

I need it, You need it.

We all need somebody.

And if you're lucky enough, that person might be your spouse, even I mean that's my case, and also my staff.

My staff will tell me also.

But I think that's one of the problems Trump has.

I think that's one of the problems Biden had I think, you know, I think a lot of times you need people like that to say no, don't do that bad idea.

And you know those guardrails are necessary.

But I'm sure you and that's not just take away your dream.

I mean, you know, when you when you go to bed, if you want to have a dream about being in the rap pack, I think you'd be a good one.

Journalist and author Jake Tapper, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify, or wherever you'll get your podcasts when we come back.

Jake Tapper takes us behind the scenes of his first presidential debate in twenty fifteen.

I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.

Jake Tapper has moderated several high profile presidential debates for CNN.

He first moderated the twenty fifteen GOP primary debate, which drew a record number of viewers.

In twenty nineteen and twenty twenty, Tapper co moderated key Democratic debates, as well as the infamous and only Biden Trump general election debate in twenty twenty four, alongside Dana Bash.

Praised for his thorough preparation, Tapper nonetheless faced criticism for not fact checking Live.

I was curious if Tapper relished the opportunity to earn such a high profile assignment.

Oh no, I was terrified, right, terrified.

I had done debates before, primary debates, never a presidential It's one of those things you know you have to do.

I don't know, is it maybe like when you were cast in Streetcar.

I don't know, Like, you know you have to do it, and you know you hope you're going to rise to it.

But god, it was nerve wracking.

I have to block out the intrusive thoughts when I'm doing street Car.

Yeah, that was tough.

And then I met him.

I had lunch with him at his house in La and I said, I said, I know, I did street Car.

He goes, yeah, I heard about that from my friends.

They said they saw you and then you were very very good.

You were very good.

Oh yeah, And he goes, I know.

My friends told me you tried to make it funny, and I wish I had done that because it's a very funny part.

There's a lot of humor in that part and I wish I'd done that.

And there's a long pause, and I go, but you're happy with the way it worked out, correct, I mean, it all worked out for you, you know the way you did.

You chose to do it.

And he's like, now, the one thing I'm always into is you did a lot of reporting about Enron.

I did back in the day.

When you reported that story.

Do you think that that's business as usual now everyone's doing the same thing.

It's so funny you say that, because I do this show called You United States of Scandal.

It's a just like a six episode show that we do like once every year or two.

And in the second season we did Enron.

And I went back and looked at the stuff I did covering Enron in I guess that was two thousand and one, two thousand and two, and I had, you know, some really good sources, and so I was able to break some good stories there.

People went to prison in Enron, and I think that people don't go to prison for that kind of thing anymore.

It feels that way, doesn't it, Like, I mean, nobody or very few people.

I mean, it depends on how you do the math.

But like the housing crisis in two thousand and eight and all the slimy chicanery that went on there.

I don't think anybody major went to prison despite the fact that they were making millions, hundreds of millions of dollars off of the despair of the American people.

The run thing always pushes me toward this idea that and this is one of the most passionate things for me.

That I just drives me insane.

And that is this country and conservatives and think tanks and everybody who were the framework, if you will, of the conservative pro business movement or pro business consciousness.

They are all the same and this is one of their greatest successes.

But if I stand up and I advocate for no oil drilling, and there's nothing in it for me, right, nothing in it for me, right.

Yeah, that's why people dismiss you.

When the head of an oil company stands up and testifies on behalf of legislation and wants to change legislation, so he's going to get millions of dollars worth of stock oppers when they come down the other end of the pipeline.

I'm like, that doesn't bother you.

People who will motivate, But in America.

It doesn't.

It doesn't, it doesn't.

You're right, look at those guys who are like, well, ex officiow, that's his job.

I mean, yes, job.

Well, it's also just why people.

I mean, it polls well to tax the wealthier individuals.

But it's not the slam dunk with every community that you think it might be.

Because people think that they're going to be rich someday too.

That is part of the American.

Yes, although Gray Davis was a good guy.

I liked him his persona when he was in office.

He was a good guy.

He is a good guy.

I liked him a lot.

I mean that recall I went out to LA I had just started at ABC News, and Diane Sawyer and the executive producer of Good Morning America, Shelly Ross, took a shine to me and they sent me out there to cover the recall.

And wow, what a goat fuck that was.

Do you remember Arianna Huffington was running.

Yes, here's a little lesson for anybody young listening.

The reason that Diane Sawyer and Shelley Ross took a shine to me and this is I had just started at ABC.

I was staying in corporate housing in DC.

They just moved me back from New York, where I lived for a year, and Arnold had announced on I think the Tonight Show with Jay Leno that he was running for governor, And so the email went out internally at ABC, and I reached out to Diane and Shelley and said, oh, I'd love it was like nine o'clock at night.

I'd love to come in right now do a piece for tomorrow morning about Arnold running.

And I have all these ideas for clips from movies that he did that we can make fun for the viewer and blah blah blah.

And they liked it and like it was.

Honestly, just raising your hand and doing the work is and I'm sure this has been the experience in your career as well, just raising your hand and doing the work.

You know, people say, why do I do the podcast?

I have a chance to do not a deep dive, but certainly a deep bird dive than what I see.

I'm reading this article in an older New Yorker now where the guy is writing Menanda is writing a review of the William F.

Buckley book.

Oh yeah, I find Buckley so intriguing.

You should have Chris on Chris Buckley.

I wonder what he thinks about this biography.

Interesting, that's a good cue, that's a good call.

He is so fascinated.

Do you know the story about when Buckley got a guy out of prison.

It's this fascinating story.

William F.

Buckley takes on the charge of this guy who's in prison who insists he's innocent, and Buckley lobbies for him.

And the guy's very literate and has self taught and is a writer.

And then the guy gets out and he tries to kill someone else.

He was guilty the whole time.

Jack Henry, Yeah, but is a guy that Mailer helped to get.

Sprung and he was guilty too.

And then he went out, well he went out.

I think he tried to kill somebody else.

So that's incredible that Buckley did it.

So Buckley did it.

It's incredible.

One thing they have in common, the bucks of Buckley.

Buckley picks him up from prison, drives him to the studio and they shoot two episodes of firing Line in a row.

And I mean, and by the way, I'd like I have no doubt that Buckley was convinced that the guy was innocent, and this was noble and he was trying to do a good thing.

And I'm not making light of it at all, but it's just a fascinating and horrifying story.

That's a great doc to compare and contrast the two of them advocating.

I didn't know Malely did that.

I need to look up mailer.

Let me just say, I'm a huge fan of yours.

Well, thank you so much.

Ellen.

My news diet.

But I come home and I'm down on a couch.

My kids are having their dinner, and I don't bother having dinner with them anymore because they just ignore me.

And then and then we hang out afterward.

But I sit down in front of a TV and watch the lead nearly every day.

That's a big part of my news feed.

Thank you so much.

That's very very kind of you.

My thanks to journalist and author Jake Tapper.

This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City and Monk Music in Easthampton, New York.

We're produced by Kathleen Brusso, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin.

Our engineer is Frank Imperial.

Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich.

I'm Alec Baldwin.

Here's the thing.

Is brought to you by iHeart Radio