01:00:03:03 - 01:00:30:05 VO the human experience without flaws, our passions, our triggers, our inspirations and our imprints. If we could see behind everyone's story, then perhaps what we would have is deep compassion. In this podcast, I get the chance to explore these stories from some truly fascinating people in some honest and heartwarming conversations. And best of all, I get to share these discussions with you I’m Lael Stone. 01:00:30:05 - 01:00:35:20 VO And this, is ‘Humans, being.’ 01:00:35:22 - 01:01:15:06 Lael Welcome to ‘Humans, being.’ with Lael Stone. I'm so happy to have you here. So my humanness this week that I've been sitting with and contemplating is about imposter syndrome, which is something that you may relate to, may not. And in my world, I think the imposter syndrome, it used to be pretty loud, actually, many years ago when, I was sitting in this space, whether it was like the parenting space or even talking about mental health, talking about just well-being, talking about emotional awareness, there was a part of me that felt like I had lots of lived experience because I'd done it, but there was also a part of me that felt a little bit 01:01:15:06 - 01:01:34:24 Lael like an imposter. And mainly that was around the fact that I don't have any degrees. I've never been to university. I have probably learned all the things I talk about and my craft through actually doing, and I've come to realize that that is probably the way that I learn best is through lived experience by listening to people's stories. 01:01:35:01 - 01:01:57:03 Lael I'm a big fan of doing the apprenticeship, so finding someone who's doing what you like or where you know what you know, someone that you admire and following their path or learning from them. You know, I, I'm a big fan of of listening to the ones that walk before us. But every so often, every so often, a little bit of an imposter part of me comes up and. 01:01:57:07 - 01:01:57:17 Lael And it's. 01:01:57:17 - 01:02:10:23 Lael Interesting to kind of navigate those feelings there, because I know that I can stand in this place, and I know that it's important to share my take on how I view things or my lived experience. But our world really. 01:02:10:23 - 01:02:14:16 Lael Really values often all the paper and the degrees and. 01:02:14:16 - 01:02:38:06 Lael All the boxes that we teach to say, this is what makes you worthy, or now you're qualified to speak about it. And and there is a place for that, there is no doubt. But sometimes that pops up in my world and I'm like, isn't that interesting that that it is still there and it's not as loud as what it used to be, but occasionally it pops up and I, I think I've learned to just trust that I do it a different way. 01:02:38:06 - 01:02:41:01 Lael And there's lots of people who do it a different way. And in this day and. 01:02:41:01 - 01:02:42:03 Lael Age, I think. 01:02:42:05 - 01:02:50:14 Lael There is so much magic that we can learn from the internet, from podcasts, from books, from listening to other people talk. 01:02:50:14 - 01:02:52:05 Lael There's not just one way. And I do. 01:02:52:05 - 01:02:55:10 Lael Love that, because I think lived experience has such. 01:02:55:10 - 01:02:58:04 Lael An important place in the world. 01:02:58:06 - 01:03:06:20 Lael So I wonder if any of that resonate with you. I wonder if those imposter stories come up, and it even doesn't have to be about degrees or qualifications. It can just. 01:03:06:20 - 01:03:08:24 Lael Be when you. 01:03:08:24 - 01:03:24:16 Lael Find yourself in space and think, how did I get here? Or all of a sudden people want to hear what you've got to say. I mean, I know a lot of people, sometimes I work, we just go, I feel like I'm making it up, and sometimes I feel like I'm making up as well. So I'm in good company sometimes with that. 01:03:24:18 - 01:03:34:14 Lael But I wonder for you, if the imposter syndrome does pop up, what it is that you need to hear, what is it that you need to tell yourself to connect into? 01:03:34:14 - 01:03:35:15 Lael Trusting that you. 01:03:35:15 - 01:03:36:10 Lael Are exactly. 01:03:36:10 - 01:03:37:20 Lael Where you need to be? 01:03:37:22 - 01:03:55:10 Lael That's my that's I'm using for today, my humanness. Now, today I am joined by an amazing woman who, if I could choose, could I come and live in your house for a week? I'm going to choose her because I just want her to cook for me. It's what I think about every time I see her pop up an Instagram. 01:03:55:10 - 01:04:16:14 Lael I'm like, can I come to your house and just take all your food for the weights? So I am with the amazing Sarah Pound. Welcome, Sarah. Sarah is a nutritionist. She's a recipe writer, an author, a content creator, and a mother. She's known as Wholesome by Sarah, and she has over 1 million followers, which is just mind blowing, isn't it? 01:04:16:14 - 01:04:39:21 Lael When you think about that many people. Yeah. And Sarah's main focus is on removing guilt and pressure around food, and and I'm going to be really transparency. Sarah, I am not a person. I love cooking, and I think that's probably because, being a young mum and having to put food on the table every night and, you know, having to just do it really, really quickly, I was just like, oh, just just eat something. 01:04:39:23 - 01:04:59:13 Lael And I've married a man who is European and food is his love language, right? So, hey, I'm like, you married the wrong woman, highly married the wrong woman. And he's always like, you put any love into your food. I'm like, I ain't got time for love, right? I like food on the table. So if you need a meal banged out in ten minutes, I'm your person, right? 01:04:59:13 - 01:05:20:19 Lael And I've managed to make it taste pretty okay over these. But what I love about you is that you make food easy, and I'm being really transparent here. We. I have recipe books in my house, and the only ones I use are your two books. Yeah, because it's simple, but it's also it's really tasty. And you just you make food feel effortless for me. 01:05:20:19 - 01:05:35:07 Lael So I'm just going to say my family thanks you. My family thanks you for your genius and your wisdom that, that my food isn't as bad. Anyone else? So welcome. It is so beautiful to have you here. 01:05:35:07 - 01:05:37:20 Sarah So nice to be here. So, so exciting. 01:05:38:00 - 01:05:46:11 Lael I'm wondering, as I was just talking about that imposter syndrome piece just then, is that something that you relate to? Is that something that's familiar to you? 01:05:46:13 - 01:06:05:18 Sarah How funny. Because when you started with that and I didn't know you were going to mention it, I've always grappled with this idea of imposter syndrome because I do believe it's the thing, but I, I thought about this so much, but it particularly with females and that's where I try to kind of reverse it and say, it's not. 01:06:05:22 - 01:06:32:20 Sarah It doesn't have to be a thing. I think it's just sometimes for me personally because I know the feeling, but it's probably where I feel not so much of an imposter, but more where I feel uncomfortable in the fact that I feel under confidence in whatever I'm doing at the particular time. Or, I'm just a bit un uneducated is not the word, but just not experienced enough in whatever you're doing in that moment. 01:06:32:20 - 01:06:53:13 Sarah So because I feel like this imposter syndrome, I get why that kind of title was created, but I think it puts more pressure on people when they sort of start labeling themselves as an imposter. So for me, it's like, okay, I am exactly where I'm meant to be, but right now I just lack the experience that those two other people in the room have. 01:06:53:16 - 01:07:14:10 Sarah And that's okay, because I've sort of always had a mindset where it's like, I am meant to be here. I just I do feel really uncomfortable because I'm not as experiences that, and that's okay. And then sometimes, depending on what the environmental the experience was, I'll be like, what can I do to feel more comfortable next time in the room? 01:07:14:10 - 01:07:33:11 Sarah Or who can I chat to? Who can I get help from? But yeah, it's not to say imposter syndrome is not a thing because I know many, many people, particularly females, feel it. I just think it's kind of like we're all winging it, right? To some extent. Like some people have brains wired more to being good at particular things. 01:07:33:11 - 01:07:40:08 Sarah But I think if you're putting yourself out there in the world and you are feeling that it's because you've never done it before, and that's okay. 01:07:40:11 - 01:07:55:14 Lael I love how you reframe that. I just don't know as much, which is a beautiful thing. And I've also found when you can own that and I want to learn from you or you know, you're not doing that, fake it till you make it, but you're being honest where you are. So much better. Yeah. Because otherwise it just. 01:07:55:14 - 01:07:56:01 Lael Yeah. 01:07:56:01 - 01:08:24:09 Sarah And that's I feel like I always think about this with again females. I'll probably refer to females a lot, but just because I am a feminist and I do think we've had it had to take a backseat for so long. So it's hard for us to be particularly in be in the business world, put in situations where I often think males have had that sort of like osmosis effect their whole life that they had around business language, that perhaps had a father or a male figure in their life that has sort of naturally mentored them. 01:08:24:09 - 01:08:44:06 Sarah So they they have had more experience and more exposure to it than us women have. Maybe. So, you know, it's it's not that you're an imposter, it's just that, you know, you're perhaps doing it for the first time or you're not used to it, or you didn't get to do a uni degree in it, or it doesn't naturally come to you in, you know. 01:08:44:06 - 01:08:54:02 Sarah So there are ways around that, because I feel like once you start labeling yourself as an imposter, then the whole world can kind of come caving in around every piece of uncomfortable kind. 01:08:54:02 - 01:09:13:08 Lael Of exposure, if that. And thinking, even talking about women in business like I have found this as well. Like I from my own businesses for nearly 30 years now. And I think when I think back to the younger versions of me, what I thought business was was the way often men did business kind of thing too. So I think there's that piece as well into it. 01:09:13:10 - 01:09:31:14 Lael And as I've gotten older, I've realized that there is a way I do business that suits me as a woman, as a mother, and that I've managed to find my beautiful rhythm with that, that I don't have to do it in another way. And I love this, this beautiful quote that says, if you didn't know how it was meant to be done, how would you do it? 01:09:31:15 - 01:09:48:06 Lael And I think about that all the time. Yeah, because I think about how can I do this in a way that suits Leo. That is my rhythm, not the way everybody else has done it, or that's the way business should tell you to do it. And I found that that's actually worked really well for me because it's in touch with my flow. 01:09:48:12 - 01:09:49:20 Lael Yes. Yeah, yeah. 01:09:50:01 - 01:10:16:02 Sarah And, you know, as you just said, there's been kind of, you know, a way that it's been done for so long and that has been much of the time by males. So but then I often always think there's a whole world of females out there that have not ever got to do it their way or been added to, like I often think is think of a woman as the customer now, because she was also never thought of as like that over the last 50 years. 01:10:16:04 - 01:10:39:24 Sarah So, you know, women do things differently. Generally we feel more, we talk more. We kind of not always, but like connection with the person before you trust them or you want to do things with them. And that is so different to, you know, I've, I've even got a business, you know, my food product business, which is mainly males as my business partners and we're so, so different and it works really well because we have both sides. 01:10:40:01 - 01:10:51:04 Sarah But it's yeah, important to keep that in mind that I think you can do it how you do it naturally and don't feel like you have to fall into this. Yeah. You know why it's always been done? Yeah. 01:10:51:06 - 01:11:13:00 Lael I love it. You talk about it having conversations because connection is such a huge part of me. And my thing is like, I need to feel. You need to feel it before I'm even going to enter into anything with you. I, I'm like, are we how we go? And I find that I find it very tricky or I kind of can't work with people who are just a bit more closed off for that. 01:11:13:01 - 01:11:29:06 Lael And I'm just letting on like, I wouldn't tell me, you trauma. Tell me you draw on it. Tell me about your upbringing. Like let's connect on this level because then I'm going to be like, I can feel you. Yeah, that's me forward. And that's a really that's important to me. I find that that's that's where I do the best work. 01:11:29:06 - 01:11:47:18 Lael Yeah. And you have those connections. Yes. Speaking of business stuff. So I know that that wholesome by Sarah or just that whole business stuff really was born out of Covid because you had your business before that. And then when Covid happened and everything just went to crap. Tell us a little bit about that, about how that came about. 01:11:47:18 - 01:11:57:04 Lael And, and that's been a pretty amazing quick, expansion of what you're doing. Has it been for you have. Yeah. I know all about. 01:11:57:04 - 01:12:21:03 Sarah You know, a whirlwind of five years now, which is kind of weird to think that Covid was, you know, I mean, started five years ago, but yes, it's sort of I had a catering company for eight years and then Covid hit. And I mean, you can look at it now as a silver lining, but at the time it was not at all because I'd worked my damn ass off for eight years to try and get to where I wanted to be. 01:12:21:03 - 01:12:39:15 Sarah And I felt like at that stage, right before Covid hit, I was kind of getting there. You know, my goal was always private property weddings, all like throughout Victoria, but, you know, down where I live, Mornington Peninsula, all of that. And I'd sort of just starting to it started to take away at that. And then all of a sudden we had like 30 locked in the diary. 01:12:39:15 - 01:13:06:06 Sarah And then no joke about six weeks later, Covid. So it was just a bit of and as everyone you know, and I always I do always have to say this, that there were people way worse than me track. Right? But I often think of the hospital scenario, say that people couldn't visit their loved one. So when I talk about Covid and say it was a really, really, you know, rough time of my life, I do understand that there was much, much worse in terms of family, love, all of that sort of stuff. 01:13:06:08 - 01:13:27:09 Sarah But I had also been working at this business for eight years. I'm a, as I've already mentioned, a massive feminist with three daughters that wants to show them how to carve their own path. And, you know, I'd be able to get there and then it pretty much all turned to shit within a year. So I had to leave spaces in Melbourne that were just shit, like pouring money out of me. 01:13:27:11 - 01:13:44:16 Sarah I had to let go of many, many staff, and it was sort of that as everyone experience that lived in Victoria was the unknown. So you didn't know what was around the corner. You sort of and I, I'm a big planner and a goal setter. I feel like since Covid, I haven't really set any goals because I feel like that just crushed them all, you know? 01:13:44:18 - 01:14:03:15 Sarah But yeah, so that all came crumbling down. I had my second daughter, Pano Penny, in that time, and then it was in the second year of Covid towards the end, that we were still shut down because our business was people in the homes as well. And remember, you know, we had those all those silly zero days and you couldn't have one person in your damn home and all that sort of jazz. 01:14:03:15 - 01:14:15:21 Sarah So, it's where I just sort of was like, I was really getting I don't want to say depressed, but I was just super flat. I kind of was like, everything I've worked so hard to achieve is just gone. 01:14:15:21 - 01:14:19:17 Lael She must have been such a big, great. Well. 01:14:19:19 - 01:14:38:13 Sarah I had realized at the time, so I was just in survival mode. And I do. And you learn some wonderful things about yourself when you know, I've. I've read that a million times, that in really hard times you'll learn the best and the worst things about yourself. But I learned that I'm a real fighter, and I am quite determined. 01:14:38:13 - 01:15:05:09 Sarah So I just kept somehow, like, it'll turn around, it'll turn around, just keep keep track of where and move doing take meals at the time because that's all we could do, which were making us no money. But it was allowing my staff to work and but just keeping my mind busy. And then when that sort of exhausted itself, that's when I kind of was like, I think I'm just going to start on Instagram and go out and buy a new camera that a good camera that I can't afford, and watch some YouTube videos, learn how to use it and start. 01:15:05:09 - 01:15:25:05 Sarah It was when Instagram Reels were just starting, to come out, and I saw a little opportunity there that I think these are going to be big. And so it was a matter of going out and just starting like that. It was posting, I posted 30 days of of recipes to kind of keep my mind ticking to give me something to do. 01:15:25:07 - 01:15:30:20 Sarah Pano at that stage was about one. So, that's how it kind of all started. 01:15:30:21 - 01:15:39:01 Lael That's amazing. And do you like at least sitting now? And you look back on that and you think about the rate you have been and where it's at. Does that kind of blow your mind? 01:15:39:03 - 01:15:55:15 Sarah It does. Like, yeah. My, it's not like you get used to it. I think now I'm a bit like, okay. Yeah, but every now and then my husband will say to me, you know, that's like ten images in the field. I'm like, yeah, when you think about like that, it's pretty bloody ways, right? 01:15:55:15 - 01:16:06:07 Lael Isn't that when people recognize you will come up and say, why do you. It's tough. Or someone said to me something about the other day and I was like, yeah, that's right. I shared about that. And then it's a weird thing. Yeah. 01:16:06:07 - 01:16:32:20 Sarah Really weird. I'm really love when people, come up to me. I just find it odd because the connection is food, which I really, really love. So I always I had to be much harder for lifestyle, talent or influences, which has not made all, I've got my audience because I create, you know, recipes and food. So I love it because people will come up and tell me their favorite recipe, tell me how they use it in their, you know, family will tell me how their kids are suddenly eating veggies, which I love. 01:16:32:20 - 01:16:46:24 Sarah So, yeah, but it is a very weird thing because it also happens, you know, you visited five places when you don't expect it at all. It's like someone, you know, when you're away somewhere in state or whatever, and someone will come up and say some lovely things and they walk away and you think, oh, wow, I. 01:16:46:24 - 01:17:03:07 Lael Didn't expect that. I was buying petrol the other day and the person in front of me was buying pitch, and I'm just standing there, and then they finish paying the tinder and they went, oh my God, I love you. And I was like, okay, the other people are like, are you? And I'm a I'm not really and anybody. 01:17:03:09 - 01:17:10:05 Lael But she was like, oh my God, I love you. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I let you very pitch for one. I was like, that's really beautiful. So yeah, like it just happens in some. 01:17:10:05 - 01:17:34:14 Sarah Yeah. And anyway like some lovely one of my favorites that happened not that long ago. I was on a plane, a flight up to see Neil and the air hostess pass and said, hi, Sarah. And I went, hi, hi. And we had a tiny chat, but she had to keep going. And then on my way out, she actually said that her daughter had like fell in love with food again, was very, very ill with an eating disorder and found me in Covid. 01:17:34:14 - 01:17:55:10 Sarah And now her daughter's thriving. And anyway, I just burst into tears and then had to get ready because there was a lot of dirty people behind us and I'll never see her again. Like it's just a lovely. That's what I also really love about it. Like, you get these quick little beautiful stories that people get out of what I do and that's like super special serve. 01:17:55:12 - 01:18:18:20 Lael Yeah, I mean, there's a lot that is nuts about the world, whether it's AI, whether it's technology, but there's also some absolute beauty in the connections. Isn't that? Yeah, I see random of ways. Yeah. And then how comes about. Yeah. I know that one of your big things is to kind of remove the guilt around food, around cooking or that kind of stuff and, you know, guilt is such an interesting topic, isn't it? 01:18:18:20 - 01:18:22:16 Lael Because I reckon as soon as you become a mother, you just go, oh, yeah, just give me the guilt. 01:18:22:16 - 01:18:25:16 Sarah I mean, just like that origins. 01:18:25:18 - 01:18:48:16 Lael Which is, again, I think something that we need to work through, we'll look at and find a way to, to, to process that. How do you navigate, you know, being this amazing working woman, building all these incredible businesses. And then you have another role as mum, right. And I know that you guys share kind of 5050 care of your kids, but how's that been for you navigating that role as mother and also as, you know, businesswoman. 01:18:48:18 - 01:18:50:22 Lael Where does that sleep for you? 01:18:50:24 - 01:19:12:04 Sarah It's I read somewhere once. Like usually if you're doing well at one, you're doing shockingly at the other end. That often happens. Or it I'm still working it out. I try to do my best at both, but I feel like you can't always give, you know? And the saying goes, you can't feel from an empty cup. So I try to look after myself as well. 01:19:12:05 - 01:19:35:08 Sarah But there's just so much going on that it's like, you can't do all of it well all the time. And that's where I think with kids support comes in and that, you know, that might be a partner, that might be a family member, that might be kinda daycare, whatever it is. I could not do and I say this all the time, really, honestly, because people are like, how do you do what you do? 01:19:35:10 - 01:19:58:15 Sarah My girls are basically in Monday to Friday care. So, you know, I think sometimes people think that I'm working full time alongside having them around my feet the whole day. And I have that, you know, one day a week with my youngest and I has not really get anything done. So it's it's yeah. That they kind of and they're happy where they are and they're secure in their support. 01:19:58:20 - 01:20:20:04 Sarah You know, supported throughout the week that I'm able to then do what I can do. But yes, my husband and I are 5050. I'm really big on that. But that is also our our individual set up. Like, it's really hard because I talk about this a lot about, you know, you know, when dad's really Pi's because my husband's name is Tom, but I call him back. 01:20:20:06 - 01:20:46:23 Sarah He, I get told how lucky I am all the time because I have him, because he does drop offs and pick ups, and he's present in our girls lots. And I just I get super pissed off about it because I'm like, what? Like, we both work full time. We both chose to have these children. He's also like, it's so it's this expectation that because he does as much as me, then he's, you know, we've got to put him up on a pedestal and he's the best thing to look up to. 01:20:46:23 - 01:21:09:16 Sarah And I just feel like I might with 20, 25, like, can that just be somewhat normal now? Because of the and I get that every situation is different and it's not easy even I look at my girlfriends and you know, they've got partners that have to leave at 630 in the morning and you know, tradie jobs, things like that, that it can't work, that they share drop off, you know, blah blah blah. 01:21:09:18 - 01:21:18:24 Sarah But it's it's also like when we see it happening within a couple like Tom and I, for example, does it have to be so special that he's doing just as much as me? 01:21:19:04 - 01:21:38:07 Lael It is an interesting thing, isn't it? Like, I've definitely seen that shift, like I've worked in the kind of birth parenting space for, like over 20 years now. And I've definitely seen a shift of where there's so many more hands on dads now. There's there's a lot more of that split. There's even some dads that, you know, the primary caregiver and depending on each family, like I think it's it's about what what works for you. 01:21:38:07 - 01:21:49:00 Lael But I remember feeling really pissed off when my kids were younger. And I mean, the mike took all three kids the park once in some woman's year to him. Oh, God, aren't you a good dad? I'm like, I. 01:21:49:00 - 01:21:51:10 Sarah Do that every day and I get him no praise. 01:21:51:10 - 01:22:09:24 Lael For it comes up to me and goes, you're great. I mean, and he goes, I got it. He goes, yeah, it's crazy. Is is a double standard yet within it. And, you know, I think that hopefully society's catching up and we're realizing that, you know, you're right. We both choose to have these children. And how do we both how do we all get our needs met or oh that's a big thing for main families. 01:22:09:24 - 01:22:23:22 Lael Like how do we all get our needs? Let me you've got desires and and you know, careers you want to build and so does your partner. And like, how do we make it all work. It's a whole and I think it's a, you know, when we can do it well and when we can support each other within it. 01:22:23:22 - 01:22:34:04 Lael It's good. I mean, it's amazing, but, you know, there's that dance often that happens in parenting, especially when we've got a lot of stress on around who's doing it tougher, like I'm stunting there. And in the early diets. 01:22:34:04 - 01:22:35:00 Sarah Those becomes. 01:22:35:00 - 01:22:49:11 Lael Yeah, in the early days of when we had kids, my husband was the kind of main breadwinner, and I was at home with the children. I had my little businesses on the side, and we often used to fight against who was doing it. Tough on, you know, and I'd be like, I'm at home with the kids all day. 01:22:49:11 - 01:23:00:11 Lael And then he's like, I'm at work today. And it really did create a whole lot of tension, which was really a highlight that none of us were actually getting our needs met at all, and we would just bring that edge together. 01:23:00:12 - 01:23:03:05 Sarah Which is really. Yeah, yeah, as you call it, keeping school. 01:23:03:05 - 01:23:03:14 Lael Yeah. 01:23:03:14 - 01:23:19:04 Sarah It's totally and I, I love you said this years ago, a bit like the, scale of 0 to 10 of, like, you know, when you coming home or you've had a day with, and we work together now. So again, we have a very, kind of unique set up that. 01:23:19:06 - 01:23:20:17 Lael We do most. 01:23:20:19 - 01:23:38:00 Sarah Like one person, but it's sort of like we now work together most of the time anyway, so it's different. But you know that leaving the house and coming home, whether you've been at home with the kids all day, man or woman, or you've been out working or whatever, and you sort of get that score of, I'm a two to not like, I just can't manage it. 01:23:38:02 - 01:24:00:06 Sarah And I've taken little pieces like that from you over the years. And the other one I lobbies that, the keeping score part, it doesn't as it's so easy to do, but it doesn't help at all. So even our one year old, she's. I never believed I'd have to say these because there's so many mums out there will be like, oh, yeah, but our altitude never had a slight regression. 01:24:00:06 - 01:24:19:09 Sarah They were just unreal. Like, I knew that at it all through the times like that, a lot of the routine started, Tom and I, because we're working full time always. But my little one, Leah, has just literally not slept for six weeks and she's six months old. So I didn't even think progressions happened after one year old. So we've been having we've gone back to newborn stage. 01:24:19:09 - 01:24:39:18 Sarah He's literally slept through the last five nights. I might you little angel. But in that time, because we didn't expect it and we thought Will through the trenches, we started to do the whole like we both get up towards separate nights. Tonight's your night, tonight's your night. Unless we both had something full on for work, but in the morning it would be like, oh, how many times did you get out? 01:24:39:18 - 01:24:57:09 Sarah And the other person was, oh, God, I was at four times it it was so full she wouldn't go to sleep for an hour and a half. And right away you started your day with this tension of like, I'm getting I'm doing it tougher. I'm doing it harder than you are at the moment. And we just said in the end I was like, I'm sorry, I just can't. 01:24:57:09 - 01:25:16:06 Sarah Can we just try and be good to each other because it's not any of our faults that she's not sleeping. We're doing our best. And when we wake up each day and you're telling me that you are up four times and you were sitting there patting that body back, you know, at Shadow Cot for an hour, it doesn't make me feel good. 01:25:16:08 - 01:25:23:04 Sarah It doesn't set my day up for success. Like it actually just punches it right into the ground. Can the very get go. So and it's. 01:25:23:04 - 01:25:47:14 Lael So interesting, isn't it? Because what it does is this unconscious thing that was not unconscious was saying it. But actually really what's behind it is I am tired. Yeah. I really need some acknowledgment. Yeah. It's like actually that's the vulnerability. But we do this. I mean, we had my husband stop going to kill me, but he probably won't since this we had this scenario, because we've really swapped Swift switched roles in the last two years. 01:25:47:14 - 01:26:01:11 Lael Right. And so he used to kind of. And all the money I was with the kids and now we've really switched. So, you know, I'm, I'm doing the majority of that. He's definitely he still works and supports me. But he takes care really of the house. And the kids don't really need him to take care of him because they're adults. 01:26:01:11 - 01:26:20:00 Lael I mean, he probably got the sweet dip and I just I mean, I feel like he's gotten over me. So favorable was after that we had this thing the other day, which you so appreciate. I had had a crazy day. I had, like, I was doing a consult with someone I had a class at to teach. I had to go to a board meeting, and then I had to race home and do a presentation online. 01:26:20:00 - 01:26:36:19 Lael Right? So I was like, quick, quick. And I said to him, could you have dinner ready when I get home so I can quickly? I tend to think, right. So he is like, yeah, I'm going to make my bolognaise or something. So he literally spent all day like six hours cooking the soup. He loves when he cooks to, talk to the food. 01:26:36:19 - 01:26:53:04 Lael Right? He's like, he could treat it like a woman. So and so he'll say, I mean, it's so cute when you're making volcanoes because you go up and you tell it, it's beautiful, right? So it's really beat up. I mean, it's funny and he's like, the time is going to go off, go stir the sauce. Did you say nice things to it? 01:26:53:04 - 01:27:17:12 Lael And I'm like, just does it anyway. He's passionate. Like he's pouring his love into the fair. I hate the loving that I don't. So he's pouring 11 to the fete and I'm doing that many days. I do this mating, do these things I do anyway. I get home, my mating run over time. I've literally got ten minutes to aim before I've got to jump onto this presentation, and I walk into the kitchen and I can't believe I did this. 01:27:17:12 - 01:27:32:10 Lael I just kind of stood there tapping my foot like waiting for it to be ready. Like I was literally. I didn't realize at the time because I was just stressed on CNN about this, and he's like trying to serve it up. And I'm like, okay, thanks. And I grabbed it and I literally went downstairs to my office and ate it, right, like scoffed it down. 01:27:32:10 - 01:27:50:04 Lael And then I jumped at my call. And then when I got off the call, came upstairs and he was really just a bit cold. And I was like, what's going on? Anyway, we went to bed and the next morning we wake up and he's still a little bit funny, and I'm like, what's wrong? We're sitting at the kitchen bench and he goes, you didn't thank me for the dinner. 01:27:50:04 - 01:28:10:05 Lael I poured my heart into the dinner and you didn't even thank me. And I like, you know, just to be human here. I'm usually pretty measured. I was like, I was working all day. I am like, I'm busting my ass for this fella. And I am, like, in full, like you're, you know, we literally are playing the game. 01:28:10:05 - 01:28:26:19 Lael He's doing a tough up but in roles reversed. And he and I were I wanted to reach to the table and just be like, it's just your bullet. It's on me. But he was like, I have put so much effort into this. And it I mean, we both stopped and then I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. 01:28:26:21 - 01:28:43:09 Lael And we both apologize to each other. And then we kind of laughed about it, but I was like, we have had this total switch. Right. And and it really I actually said what it has made me appreciate. And I think it's made him appreciate it too. And like, no job is harder than the other. Yeah, there's a pressure earning money. 01:28:43:09 - 01:29:01:11 Lael There's a pressure of like the next gig, paying the bills, staff, all the kind of stuff. Yeah, that has its pressure. And then when I was in the trenches of raising little kids, that's massive. Right? Yeah. And I think we're both we're both bringing something to it. And when we don't appreciate each other arena, that's where it gets really messy. 01:29:01:11 - 01:29:04:15 Lael And it was such a I mean it's kind of fire's big cuz. 01:29:04:15 - 01:29:05:15 Sarah It's funny now. 01:29:05:19 - 01:29:16:02 Lael But at the time, I cannot believe how mad I got because I was like, what was going on for me is I don't feel appreciated. I don't feel sane. He was saying the same thing. Yeah, right. And so. 01:29:16:02 - 01:29:17:13 Sarah There's a different form. 01:29:17:13 - 01:29:33:18 Lael I need. Yeah I have a little reset around that. So polarity is amazing. You love is cooking. It's very good. Anyway. It's got full love. Full love. So then he talks through it. That's your best. So with your love of food and stuff, was that an imprint for you in your family? Like was food a source of celebration? 01:29:33:18 - 01:29:35:13 Lael Was it something that was like, yeah. 01:29:35:13 - 01:30:02:24 Sarah My mom's a very good cook and, you know, she I'm one of five kids. And we did get the luxury of her cooking a meal from scratch every single night, which obviously was more common, you know, 38 years ago. Yeah. But and comes down to that, you know, bread, rainbow wall and, stay at home mom role. But that was where it's I think it was a natural passion that was just part of my personality. 01:30:02:24 - 01:30:23:12 Sarah But then it was brought out in the sense that, you know, mom cooked every night. So I watched, I helped at times, got involved, and then it just kind of started from there. I did, yeah. So I had a natural love for food and cooking. But then the nutrition health side also came into it when I was a little bit older. 01:30:23:14 - 01:30:35:22 Sarah More out of just being interested in how food can kind of fuel your body and what it can do for you and, and energy and all of that sort of stuff. And that's where it kind of. Yeah, all stemmed from. 01:30:35:22 - 01:31:07:15 Lael Yeah. Beautiful. Because those imprints that we have in our family of origin often so can set up some beautiful stuff anyway. And yeah, it is such, it is such a it can just hold so much weight in the sense of, pardon the pun, around, our relationship, the food. Right. Especially if we grew up in families where you had to eat everything on your place where, we were judged for the way we looked or, you know, or even just even the basic imprints. 01:31:07:15 - 01:31:25:12 Lael And this is something my husband and I talk about. Food was not a thing in my family growing up. It was literally fuel that was eat. So we had we'd have steamed vegetables with not even salt on them. Like, I mean, I boiled it. Yeah. And chops. Chops. We had the same like thing on Wednesday night, you know. 01:31:25:12 - 01:31:31:19 Lael I laughed and I said to my husband, He's European. I'm like, we never ate pasta growing up. Only an engaging way. Yeah, not pasta wasn't even a thing. 01:31:31:20 - 01:31:32:12 Sarah Totally. 01:31:32:12 - 01:31:49:13 Lael Like food was just bland. There was no love in it. Yeah, it's no love in my favorite. Yeah, it's I don't I'm good at many things. Probably not good views on the me. It wasn't even an imprint that was like, this is a source of celebration or it's a it's a coming together. It's something that's beautiful. 01:31:49:13 - 01:32:05:19 Lael Whereas my husband had that and, you know, and that's what he's kind of introduced into our family, this love of food. And it's so funny when my kids who are adults now, we sit around and we talk about memories, most the memories are related to food and to that restaurant. Remember that place there. Remember when you made this thing like. 01:32:05:19 - 01:32:10:21 Lael And I'm like, it is such a it is such a forum for people to connect and come together, isn't it? 01:32:10:22 - 01:32:38:20 Sarah Yes. And so true. I feel like the relationship people have with food is so different person to person. Yeah, and it can be. And that was one thing my parents did beautifully, is that there was never I mean, I've, you know, I've got an older brother, but then three younger sisters, so four girls in the family and there was never any kind of guilt related to food, you know, in terms of connection with weight or, you know, and that's. 01:32:38:20 - 01:33:05:10 Sarah Yeah, I find as well, nutritionists and dietitians I've met along the way and they're quite open about it. But the, fascination for what they do now came out of things like eating disorders and things like that. It was that kind of, real focus on food to the point that it was controlling your whole life. Whereas I come from a totally different world of it was never connected to guilt or what you look like in the mirror. 01:33:05:10 - 01:33:21:04 Sarah It was just we all eat as a family every night, which we try to do with our three girls. It doesn't always happen because, you know, work and life, it all gets and gets in the way. But Tom and I are really big on at least fortified. Not too weak and a little steel. So it's, you know, you've got to. 01:33:21:06 - 01:33:38:13 Sarah But we'll sit up at the table together, ask how your day was. What happened that was funny today. You know. And that doesn't have to happen. Have to happen every night. Because obviously it sounds super corny and whatever, but it is that whole that's where you kind of form those connections with food from, as you say, with your three. 01:33:38:13 - 01:33:57:05 Sarah It's sort of, oh my gosh, I remember that time we went to that beautiful lunch. Oh my God, that funny story. And it's often food that's brought you two guys together, or the excuse to at least bring, you know, you guys together. So I think yeah, it means so much to. Yeah, it just means lots of different things to different people. 01:33:57:07 - 01:34:20:19 Sarah But that's how I try to view it, that it is. It's wonderful fuel for our bodies to be. Yeah. And that's how I talk to my little ones about it, like, so that you can get up and play and go to day care and kinder and run around with your mates. And that's in its simplest form, age appropriate, what food is and it's but as you grow, you realize it is a form of connection and catching up with, like tonight I'm having dinner with my best mate. 01:34:20:19 - 01:34:35:15 Sarah I don't live in the city, haven't seen her for months. She's pregnant for the first time and I'm like, how lovely. We're going to have a beautiful meal, glass of wine. And it does it. It's like a really nice way to just bring people together, because I feel like even though I'd love exercising, I feel like it was like, hey, do you want to go for a walk? 01:34:35:15 - 01:34:39:00 Sarah I'd be like, moved house yesterday. I come for going for a walk. 01:34:39:04 - 01:34:40:16 Lael I'm not doing that. But give me a nice. 01:34:40:16 - 01:34:41:09 Sarah Ball of posture. 01:34:41:09 - 01:34:59:13 Lael And gosh, a bar that none. This is right in my heart. And do you know what else I do, though? We we made it a point of eating together when I gets a little. And that is still something we do. Yeah, unless one of the kids or someone's working every night, we get down and we sit and we have a meal and it lasts for like an hour, it means we ate and we just talk. 01:34:59:13 - 01:35:17:15 Lael And it is. And I know that this point in our lives is about to change, because my kids are all about to go traveling and move out and all sorts of different stuff. So we've got this really beautiful window where they're adults, and every night one of someone cooks. So it's not just me, like someone cooks each night of the week, so they prepare the meal. 01:35:17:15 - 01:35:37:03 Lael We all sit in a we talk about it. It's it is kind of, I think what we all hope for when we're parents of that beautiful connection. And it has become something very, very sacred. And it does kind of shock me sometimes. And my kids friends would come over and we'd say, Monday mature. Can that be like, oh my God, I just get my dinner and go and eat in my room every night. 01:35:37:05 - 01:35:48:07 Lael And I'm like, which I know, I know all families, different stuff. But I feel like there is something when we can honor it and bring the sacredness to it. It's such a beautiful place to me. Yeah. 01:35:48:09 - 01:36:14:02 Sarah And also it is so like, it's not easy, as in, like it's the easy way out. But if you got young kids and life is hectic, it's very easy to make dinner and leave the TV on. But I think it's quite hard to go because I'm not saying we don't have to be in our house. We have lots of TV in our house, but little often be watching TV and I'll sort of go, I'll finish dinner and I'm so tired and I'll think, oh, she can just eat on the couch. 01:36:14:02 - 01:36:20:23 Sarah I can't be bothered. And usually it's Tom, my husband, because he's quite big on traditions and things like that, and he did the same with his family. But you say. 01:36:21:00 - 01:36:23:07 Lael No like a soon to be off. So it just. 01:36:23:07 - 01:36:45:24 Sarah Takes that extra bit of effort to go and not just switch the TV off and set up. And every night it's not going to be lovely, especially with young children, but it sort of does. I often think about my future self in ten, 20, 30 is what I want my relationship with my girls to be like. And I think, you know, they're going to grow up and go off and leave and have lives of their own. 01:36:46:01 - 01:37:05:17 Sarah But if we've got something like, a nightly meal that we've had together, not every night that most nights of the week, I think that's something that will bring them back to me, you know, in, in a nice way. Not every night, obviously, when they grow up. But, you know, once a week, once a fortnight, it's still that lovely connection that I think they'll miss. 01:37:05:18 - 01:37:11:16 Sarah What I'm hoping they'll miss, but that I'll crave, that will bring us back together, I. 01:37:11:16 - 01:37:30:16 Lael Love that, yeah. You know, and I, I mean, that was going to be my next question is what are the imprints that you hope your girls have from the way you guys are raising them? What do you hope is is what they just knowing they're being like? You know, we talk about an imprint of we come together and we eat food and it's in celebration. 01:37:30:16 - 01:37:45:03 Lael Or, you know, they've watched you probably no doubt, you know, be brave and courageous and follow your heart and business. You know, that's a beautiful imprint. They've watched a woman who can do stuff. What do you hope are the imprints that you pass on to your girls? 01:37:45:05 - 01:38:16:23 Sarah Oh. Good question. I think for me, because I don't think I'm a perfect mom and I think I'd stuff it up all the time, but I think for me, it probably I do like a values workshop. That two years ago in Missouri, values came down to respect, courage and freedom. And so when I'm a bit lost or when I'm exhausted, or when I'm trying to think how I want to raise my girls, I'll go back to those and what that might look like in that particular scenario kind of thing. 01:38:16:23 - 01:38:42:14 Sarah So I think imprints wise, I would want, you know, yeah, I think a big one for me is that they've watched me be courageous and sort of, you know, yeah, just push it in a female kind of business world that, you know, wasn't shocking to me particularly, but that I could pass on to them. And I always think they don't have to do that. 01:38:42:16 - 01:39:01:13 Sarah You know, they might not want to work. They want to want to stay at home. My children and I would be totally fine with any of that, but I, I think my biggest imprint I would want them to do is just do what you want to do in terms of not necessarily just career either. I think just try to, yeah, find your passion in whatever that looks like. 01:39:01:13 - 01:39:17:16 Sarah And yeah, you might not be able to do it at all parts of your life because life can get hectic at whatever. But just do that. I think that women take a backseat so much of their lives, you know, they put so many other people first and children and partners and family and parents and all of that sort of stuff. 01:39:17:16 - 01:39:31:13 Sarah And, and I try to teach my girls that it's not selfish to also think about yourself, to also, as I say, you can't pull from an empty cup. So it's like you're allowed to want stuff to and you're allowed to put yourself out there and go for that as well. 01:39:31:16 - 01:39:37:06 Lael That's terrifying. Yeah. I mean, and again, you are just loving this. So they're getting it. Yeah. 01:39:37:06 - 01:40:00:18 Sarah Well I hope I have this. Well that was the other one. With respect. It's like Tom and I have both ways a very respectful relationship where we care for the other, we consider the other. We have fun with the other. So that's my other biggest thing. That's not so much related to career or anything, but that they have respect in their relationships that they form, whether that friendships. 01:40:00:18 - 01:40:20:22 Sarah I'm often like to my oldest, who's eight and she's still little, so it's age appropriate. It's not like I'm sitting her down for massive lectures. But as you know, talking about with friendship the two ways straight, how do they make you feel like. And it starts with stuff like that. And then, you know, whether they grow up and have a partner, boy or girl, it's like you should feel valued in that relationship. 01:40:20:22 - 01:40:25:20 Sarah You should feel respected. What does respect look like? I hope that we're showing that to them every day. 01:40:25:20 - 01:40:52:08 Lael Yeah. Which so much of that is already happening because so much of them learning about relationships happens just purely by the day to day living. How you guys speak to each other, you kindness, you consideration. I mean, all of that is kind of infiltrating into them anyway, even without the words, you know, it's it's there. I wonder for you then thinking about, you know, we all have these imprints that we carry in from our childhood and some of the biggest stories that we're still having to work with. 01:40:52:10 - 01:41:10:11 Lael What is it in your world that you still like? Oh, this trips me up. Is it about, boundaries? Is it about self-worth? Is it about saying no? Saying yes? Is it about playing or finding joy? Like, what is it that you feel that your is one of the things that you're like, oh, I still have to keep working with that. 01:41:10:13 - 01:41:33:04 Sarah Yeah, a couple for sure. One would be, I think, emotional intelligence or because that was more, you know, the era that we were growing up that I grew up in, it was quite normal for parents not to, you know, now be spending so much of your work. Obviously, is spent on the emotional side of a child. 01:41:33:04 - 01:41:53:22 Sarah And I feel that that just wasn't a thing when we were kids. So it's sort of like when I met my husband, I was just very I just wasn't good at it. So it's taken me years to learn it. And he's been like a wonderful, demonstration of what that looks like because he's emotional intelligence has always been. 01:41:53:22 - 01:42:11:17 Sarah That's what's kind of drew me to him in the beginning. But he was always there. But we used to, you know, like things like silent treatment and stuff like that used to happen when I was a kid, because it was kind of normal around that time. But so went on, I would have. And we've been together since we were 17, so forever. 01:42:11:19 - 01:42:32:04 Sarah But we'd sort of had these fights at 18, 19, 20 and I just shut off, wouldn't say a word. And I just that was, you know, what I was taught what I knew. And he was so bloody patient. I look back and, you know, there were times that he'd sit on the bed at the end of the bed for like an hour at a time, and he'd be like, I'm not going to go anywhere until you talk to me. 01:42:32:06 - 01:42:32:18 Lael Yeah. 01:42:32:19 - 01:42:44:19 Sarah And I just feel like in my head I'd be like, I've got a thousand things to say, but I actually can't say them. So I am the opposite with my girls. It's like, let it out cry. 01:42:44:23 - 01:42:46:20 Lael That was all of this. 01:42:46:20 - 01:43:06:09 Sarah Sort of stuff. Obviously there's a balance because you can't let them cry forever and you can't let them, you know, I decide I want to do that today, and then they have a tantrum and you let them do what they wanted to do. And that doesn't send the right message either. So there is a balance. And, you know, I tell them and I talk about that all the time, what we're doing, what we could have done better, blah blah, blah. 01:43:06:11 - 01:43:28:24 Sarah But I do I it's the more I've been surrounded by it, the more I've, you know, I come across people like you who is so wonderful in that space. The more I my. It makes so much sense to be like that. And it's, it's so funny now in my life because I see grown ups that either don't have it or don't do it. 01:43:29:01 - 01:43:57:07 Sarah And nothing against Sam. And, you know, maybe it was the way they brought up and they never knew whatever. For what? There's a million reasons why people aren't like that, but I it's not like I look down on them, but I might. You're just missing out on so much. I think when you open yourself up emotionally and you know, you can be vulnerable and it just gives, yes, so much opportunity for connection and deep feelings that I think we're meant to feel as humans. 01:43:57:07 - 01:44:18:17 Lael We are like, yeah. And again, I, I so relate like it's we grew up in a time where behaviorism was the thing, which is that you know, you don't get upset, you don't be sad, and you be good. We love you and you good. When you're bad, we kind of turn away. I mean, that was everywhere. And that was not to certain parents are I pretty much that was just the narrative of what you were told a good parent was. 01:44:18:17 - 01:44:20:13 Lael And a good child is a compliant. 01:44:20:13 - 01:44:22:04 Sarah Child's a good girl. 01:44:22:04 - 01:44:43:12 Lael Yeah. You totally. And the good girl thing is amazing. But most women I work with, we're still undoing the good girl thing, because then we don't really have good boundaries. And moral about what does everyone else think? And it's just it runs deep. Yeah. And I, I love hearing you say this because I'm like, you are being brave enough and courageous enough to do this work so your girls don't have to. 01:44:43:14 - 01:45:04:02 Lael You're giving them permission to be who they need to be. You're giving them permission to feel angry. Let it go. Cry. Feel it move on. Like you know you are saying yes to all of them. And I think that's what I say. Just, you know, our generation of people, we're doing this massive healing work because we weren't allowed to feel. 01:45:04:02 - 01:45:14:08 Lael Yeah. And again, just a product of the time. Our parents were doing the best they could, all of those kind of things, which there's some really powerful work that's happening here as we shift it. Yeah, it's not easy though. 01:45:14:10 - 01:45:33:01 Sarah It's not easy. And also within that, you know, it comes back to the good girl thing as well because that was everywhere in our generation, but not so much. And it's not like I felt that from my parents more you feel it from everyone around you. And it is that if the if the child's quiet, they're good. So you know then as you say, compliant. 01:45:33:03 - 01:45:58:13 Sarah But in all the stuff I'm trying to teach my girls, it's also just that being able to speak up. So there's this massive, I feel connotation with females that if you want to, you know, stand up and disagree or say something or have a different opinion that you're either rocking the boat or, you know, you just. Yeah. And that's how I feel like most of our generation grew up, particularly females. 01:45:58:13 - 01:46:18:09 Sarah So it's also like you can say what you want and you're not being rude. There's a way to say it. You always need to be respectful of whoever you're talking to and wherever they come from or who they are or what their background is, but you can absolutely stand up for yourself or say, I'm not comfortable with this, or I disagree, but but I'm still learning that. 01:46:18:15 - 01:46:22:20 Sarah So it's just that's actually what I find more difficult. Like now I feel like emotional. 01:46:22:20 - 01:46:24:03 Lael Intelligence comes pretty. 01:46:24:03 - 01:46:43:13 Sarah Easy, but it's been 20 years of learning it. But, but yes, trying to speak up when you feel that, you know, gut feeling of like, I'm not okay with this or this doesn't suit me or whatever, it's like, how do we do that? How do we teach our kids that, you know, without them feeling that if being rude or annoying or, you know. 01:46:43:15 - 01:47:00:02 Lael It is such a big thing that that always comes up for me when I think about my teenage self, like I so wish I had, have had a version of me back then to say, this is how you say no, yes, or this is how you go. Actually, that doesn't work for me. But yeah, it's like it didn't even know it was an option. 01:47:00:02 - 01:47:18:20 Lael Yeah. You just just can't help it up. Well, you just moved on and and that's what I feel like you feel really passionate about with my kids of just. We used to practice lots. How do you say no? How do you. What would you do in this situation? What words could you use? Because I think we need to have a language around it and they need to know that that is really important. 01:47:18:21 - 01:47:35:24 Lael You know, that they can claim that space, they can stand there. And I mean, that excites me for what they're going to do. And I say that even with my daughters, they do not take shit, but they are just like, not, not, oh my. Oh yeah, this is my boundary. They will call out stuff and I'm just like. 01:47:36:01 - 01:47:37:16 Sarah You know, like I created this. 01:47:37:21 - 01:47:56:10 Lael Like, oh wow. Yeah. I mean all of them because I just think there's no way I would have ever done that at that age. And I just love that they're connected enough to themselves to be able to say those things. And that's. Well, I just think he's so magnificent, you know? And and the gift as we, as we do our own work that we can help them to. 01:47:56:10 - 01:47:57:22 Lael That is so beautiful, isn't it. Yeah. 01:47:57:24 - 01:48:02:03 Sarah Completely. That's my my hope. So you you've done it. How incredible. 01:48:02:05 - 01:48:18:18 Lael Well, you know, I mean again, no one's, you know, nobody's perfect. My kids have all everyone's got their stuff. Right. But what I do love is that, their sense of connection to themself is strong. And what they. Yes. And those are. Yeah. They really clear on them, and I just I love that that just is so powerful. 01:48:18:20 - 01:48:47:19 Lael Yeah. I wanted to just touch on about, you know, the space that you work in, particularly your beautiful books, recipes, all that kind of stuff. It's a it's become. Well, it probably has always been a competitive space, but it's really become a competitive space now. Right. Like how do you navigate that? Do you ever compare, do you feel, you know, it's very saturated or do you just kind of stay in your lane and go, I'm just going to do my thing. 01:48:47:19 - 01:48:48:20 Lael How does that land for you? 01:48:48:20 - 01:49:10:13 Sarah A bit of both, I think, but I always come back to stay in my own life. I think that it's it's so natural to compare. And I think to some extent it's kind of healthy at times, like to look at competitors and, you know, and I even this goes back to my catering days, you know, I was striving to be the best catering Victoria, for example. 01:49:10:13 - 01:49:42:08 Sarah So I was looking at who was ahead of me, who'd walk the path, who was, you know, everywhere at the time. So I think there's a level of healthy competitiveness that you kind of go, oh, what what's everyone doing? What are the trends? Just want to. But then if you get to I think it's really easy, which I feel like, I should say I feel like I'm quite good at these that don't get bogged down by what someone else in your field is doing, because it just will confuse you and it won't be authentic to what I feel like. 01:49:42:08 - 01:50:01:22 Sarah I want to do that kind of thing, and it just will try. So yeah, there are times definitely that I look at others around me and go, oh, they're doing something cool or all. That's really cool. But not enough to sort of. Yeah, boiled me down because I think you can easily get bogged down. So it's easy just to put the blinkers on and be like, that's okay, that's them. 01:50:01:22 - 01:50:06:06 Sarah It's not uses like you just need to keep doing what you're doing and hopefully keep going. 01:50:06:06 - 01:50:20:06 Lael Yeah, I think it's yeah, I am so impressed with the ideas. Like I sometimes watch you and I just think you've got 30 days of business like 30, 30, 40, 30 slow cook things. And I'm like, wassup? I'm going, yeah, yeah. 01:50:20:08 - 01:50:51:10 Sarah Well yeah, that's I think it's taken me nearly 40 years to learn this. That isn't it funny like, you talk about imprints, but at school I thought because not that teachers direct let me directly said that I was not creative, but there were certain scenarios that came up. And, you know, back in that back in my day, but back in back then, it was sort of like creative was to do with the arts, like if you were good at art, for example, was my idea of if you are creative, you could add art, and that's about it. 01:50:51:12 - 01:51:13:12 Sarah We were never I was never taught or maybe I was never made aware that creative can be so many things, and I'm only learning now, and especially from creating wholesome by Sarah. You know, I'll get that question a lot. How do you continually come up with ideas? And my answer is that they just come up and they're just there. 01:51:13:14 - 01:51:35:22 Sarah And I think I'm learning. You know, as I said, nearly 40 years into my life, that I'm creative. Yeah. So it's it's taken a long time for the penny to drop, but it's that's the other thing. It's like, you know, kids are. So you think back to how that became an imprint and then how that, you know, meant so much to you along particular parts of your life, like, oh, I can't do that. 01:51:35:22 - 01:51:55:05 Sarah I'm not creative. And I won't take part in that cause I'm not really creative. And it's just like, that was so wrong. Yes. What I thought. Yes. So it's just trying to keep kids minds open, I think as well. Like, always questioning. But why do you think that? Why? You know why. You know. So I try to do that sometimes. 01:51:55:05 - 01:52:10:07 Sarah Why in don't March. Because Lily, my eldest, is like, shut the fuck up, mom. Well, like, do you ever start asking why? And she's not a talker. Don't know. That's a real struggle for me because I'm like, how's you doing? So good. And I know most people will say, that's what my children say, but that is all you get out of ever. 01:52:10:13 - 01:52:37:06 Sarah It's like, it's not even not time. When she's trying to procrastinate going to bed, does she come up with stories? She's just like a one word response girl. And that is where is my second is like the opposite. But yeah, it's sort of like keep that questioning. And you know, because it's so easy for a child to have one experience or two experiences and that form some, you know, mindset or belief in their brain that then they can carry for such a long time. 01:52:37:08 - 01:53:07:11 Lael Yes. So, right. Like it's those offhanded comments that we get at school. You want a very smart you're never gonna be a good learner. You're not creative like they they'd lands and I you know, I work a lot with educators. And I say to them all the time, you have to be mindful of your words. You have so much power and you can use your influence for good or for bad, like, you know, and the way you talk to a child, the way you meet them, the way you help or support them, has just long lasting impact. 01:53:07:11 - 01:53:21:04 Lael And so lately and I, I love what you say about creativity because you write this creativity in so many different things. And I probably think it is the same. Two I thought creativity was playing music or drawing was you draw something like, you know, those kind of things. Yeah. 01:53:21:06 - 01:53:23:22 Sarah Stewey crap at drawing figures everywhere. 01:53:23:24 - 01:53:41:02 Lael But I'm gonna be like you. I'm a super creative person, but it's in the work that I do and it comes up with new ideas or. Yeah, or just stuff like that is. And it's that thinking, oh, if I could do this, I could do that. And I love that you say they just come to me because to me, that is that's just when you're in your flow, right? 01:53:41:02 - 01:53:57:24 Lael It's often for me, my best creative ideas always come in the shower. I when I'm driving, I'm just like, I have long showers. Yeah, I might do this. I could do that. That is a design thing. Shower. For me, journey is amazing because and it's sometimes, you know, when you've got to do a new project or something and there's this in-between. 01:53:57:24 - 01:54:13:22 Lael Yeah. Where it hasn't dropped in yet. And I have now reached a point in my life where I get excited. When's it going to drop in? When is the idea going to land? Because I can there's something bubbling, but it hasn't quite landed yet. Yeah. And then when it lands you're like, yeah, got it. It's a dish that's magical, isn't it? 01:54:13:22 - 01:54:16:05 Lael Like it used to interest me a bit. But now you're like. 01:54:16:05 - 01:54:19:19 Sarah Oh, it'll count on that. You almost need to trust the. Yeah, that's a trap. 01:54:19:20 - 01:54:21:02 Lael Yeah, I have to trust that. 01:54:21:02 - 01:54:45:11 Sarah I also find as well shower for me, but also if I allow which is tricky with three children. But generally my three girls are pretty good sleepers and I've. I've got to be better at not jumping on my phone the minute that I wake up, because if I get a bit of quiet time, like I'll wake up and lie in bed, and if no one else is awake and I don't touch my phone, that's also when I can get some really time. 01:54:45:11 - 01:55:01:02 Sarah Yeah, fabulous. Kind of. That's what I'm going to do today. Oh yeah. Or I should also, you know, and that's where some ideas can really land. But often I'll pick up my phone straight out and I'll be like, oh, I'll shoot off that email that I didn't do last night, check Instagram, do that. And then it's destroyed. 01:55:01:02 - 01:55:12:19 Lael It's why you need to have 15 minutes, non-negotiable, draining time in the morning, but to just allow those things to drip through? Yes. It's so important, isn't it? It's so. 01:55:12:19 - 01:55:23:08 Sarah Important. And yeah, I obviously we've phones and technology, we don't get anywhere near enough of it. But when you do, it's Yeah, it's pretty wonderful feeling. 01:55:23:10 - 01:55:54:20 Lael You struck me as a woman that, I mean, you have amazing success and you're doing and the beautiful things, but you strike me as a woman that would champion other women that would you know, be happy for their success and just be like, go like an I think sometimes to what I sometimes say in spaces is that when we're brave enough to take risks and steps and all that kind of stuff, you know that you win no matter what you do, even if it doesn't land because you're brave enough to give it a go. 01:55:54:20 - 01:56:15:23 Lael Right? For you, you know, whether it's just with friends of the women you know, or anybody who's putting something out there creatively, does it sit for you in a place where you're like, how you go? Yeah, because I sometimes see a lot of competition where we can get triggered by what others are doing. Like, where does that sit for you? 01:56:16:00 - 01:56:35:23 Sarah 100%? I whenever I try to, and it's funny you say that because I've said to my husband and said, I've, I've said it before, but I will one day work with women in trying to put themselves first. I just know it because it's just in my belly. It's always there. But I know I'm not particularly ready for it yet and I'm like, that's fine. 01:56:35:23 - 01:56:57:04 Sarah That time will come. It might be in five years, it might be in ten years. So when I say, yeah, even with my three sisters, with girlfriends on my oh, just give it a crack. But I need to be careful because I, I do really love this about myself, that I don't worry about giving something a go and failing because I think failings is a shit word. 01:56:57:04 - 01:57:16:08 Sarah But it, you know, it gives something, giving something a go and it not working out the way that you wanted it. Because I've sort of figure, I don't know, why don't I. And that would also come down to my parents. My dad always put himself out there. They had small businesses. He was similar like that, that he will always say, who. 01:57:16:08 - 01:57:16:22 Lael Gives a shit. 01:57:16:22 - 01:57:31:22 Sarah What people think? As long as you obviously care about the people that you love and that, you know, I know you in support, you care about what they think. But for the people that are sitting out there having a guy like, oh my God, what she doing, she started this thing. It's seems so lame, all of that. 01:57:31:22 - 01:57:51:22 Sarah I'm like, oh, that is so your own shit. That just needs to be sorted. So I'm a massive advocate for any female just trying to do whatever. And it can look, you know, it can be a million things, but it's yeah, we don't do it enough. We always, as I said before, take the back seat, put everyone else first thing. 01:57:51:22 - 01:58:12:23 Sarah Oh, I can't do that. Like, it's, it's such an important thing to look at your life and say, you know, even a friend of mine who's recently come through breast cancer, she talks about before she had the cancer being the backseat driver. And she was like, you know, she had her two kids or her partner of friends or parents. 01:58:13:00 - 01:58:34:14 Sarah And she was like, that was all I ever knew. And that was what I did. And she was like, the wonderful gift out of the cancer is that it? Like, shook it up for me and was like a bit of a knock in the face of, like, you get one shot at this life, one shot and if you're thinking about doing that thing and she's created this wonderful skincare brand called vodka. 01:58:34:14 - 01:58:39:13 Sarah But, and so I didn't mean to just plug her there, but she's so incredible because. 01:58:39:15 - 01:58:40:01 Lael It's. 01:58:40:01 - 01:59:01:08 Sarah Just, it's come out of something that was so terrible, but she's seen an opportunity and also given herself his wonderful life message of, you actually do get one shot at this, so give it a crack. If it does not work out, it's not the end of the world. And if it does not work out, you will learn something from it. 01:59:01:10 - 01:59:20:19 Sarah You'll learn either about yourself or something along the journey that will you will be able to carry into whatever you're going to do next. The next chapter. Yeah, you might lose some money. Yeah, you might lose a little bit of self-confidence along the way. But I think putting yourself out there is so brave. And yeah, if it doesn't work out, what's the next. 01:59:20:19 - 01:59:26:24 Lael Thing that's exactly. You know, the thing about me, my language. I have always said you will win just because you. 01:59:26:24 - 01:59:27:24 Sarah Said yes for me. 01:59:27:24 - 01:59:45:21 Lael To go. Yeah. And you know, everything teaches us nothing is wasted. Nothing is wasted in a big journey of everything you've done and tried. It all comes to these moments and all those skills and tools and challenges and all those kind of things, that there is just beautiful wisdom if you can tap into it to do it. So I agree with you. 01:59:45:21 - 01:59:57:15 Lael I'm like a big champion of of people giving us stuff ago, giving it a try like I, I probably a bit like you, I've always just jumped into stuff, but I'm gonna give it a go so it'll work out like I'm. I don't really have a plan. Yeah. 01:59:57:15 - 01:59:59:13 Sarah I was never a business plan. I kind of gals. 01:59:59:13 - 02:00:20:07 Lael Highly like that. I'm like, oh, this a good idea? Let's do it. Which I know terrifies some people. But I'm like, I will learn something no matter what. And hey, may work. And that's the beautiful thing. Yeah. And I think that champion that in others is, I just think so important and vital to give a nice little that little extra push or just like, yes, go give it a go. 02:00:20:07 - 02:00:45:08 Sarah The learnings. And you know, people can look at holes in my Sarah for example, now and be like, wow, you know, look what you've built in. Whatever. I could not have done that without 2 pounds. With which, if you look at it, I know you could say Covid destroyed it, but, you know, I technically failed. If we want to look at the word fail, it was a business that was, you know, running to the ground to the point that we had to close our doors. 02:00:45:10 - 02:01:19:16 Sarah And I learned so much out of that eight years, and definitely in the tricky times, too. So if it leads to that, you learned so much about yourself and about other people as well. I think that's really important. The people you work with and you know, what they bring and who you are as a person, but it's sort of like I would not have been able to do wholesome by Sarah without having that whole experience, which you could easily look at and say, what a wasted eight years, because nothing ever came from it in terms of the business side of things, or being able to sell it or make money or whatever. 02:01:19:18 - 02:01:28:03 Sarah Be the caterer you always strive to be. But it's like I could never have done with wholesome what I have without having that. 02:01:28:05 - 02:01:53:15 Lael And don't those times where you are on your knees and it feels like there's no hope or what's going to happen? They are the times where we need trust more than anything, dummy. The down times. We just have to hold a little glimmer of hope or light, that there is wisdom in what we're going through. And I don't mind that they are usually the times where magic is born from those spaces. 02:01:53:15 - 02:01:54:03 Lael Definitely. 02:01:54:03 - 02:02:14:04 Sarah It's sort of like it's about to turn a corner. Something's about to change. And how I always looked at it as well, which I always find so funny, but it's true because I think it terrifies my husband because he's just got a different personality to me. But when my business was crumbling and wholesome, hadn't started and I thought, oh my God, everything I've worked for is coming. 02:02:14:04 - 02:02:35:13 Sarah Crashing down and what the hell am I going to do after this? And I did always come back to the idea of if it all turns to shit, I can and I lose my house, lose everything, I'll live in the gutter, but at least I'll have my family so. And it might not be your partner and your kids, but they'll be someone in your life that you love or whatever. 02:02:35:13 - 02:02:44:11 Sarah And you might not be living with them, but at least you got them. So that's weirdly what always gave me a bit of comfort if. 02:02:44:13 - 02:02:46:23 Lael When you think about it. So I, having a toddler. 02:02:46:23 - 02:02:48:15 Sarah Living in a gutter. 02:02:48:15 - 02:02:50:19 Lael Sounds great. 02:02:50:21 - 02:03:01:13 Sarah It just somehow it was just like, it's not the end of the world, like career business stuff that you late for is just if it doesn't work out, it's not the end of the world. At least you gave it a crack. 02:03:01:14 - 02:03:28:21 Lael It's yet you know it is. It is better to risk and try than never do it at all. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And I think that is, you know, that for me, such a really important message is be brave. You never know. Totally. Well, I want to thank you for having the courage and the creative, magic and just the bravery to do what you do, because, again, I'll just say again, you're the only person that I look from. 02:03:28:23 - 02:03:47:10 Lael I think my family might. Thank you. I just love everything that you stand for, Sarah. I just think that, just the light that you turn up with, just, you know, online. But the ease in what you help people do to build a beautiful relationship with you, just all that you are doing in creating the world needs more of it. 02:03:47:10 - 02:04:07:17 Lael You know, it is is the world is messy. There's a lot out there. But I think what you do and what you, what you stand for and just your beautiful creative gifts in the world is it is wholesome. It is. It is so wholesome is just it's beautiful. It makes me feel good every time I see pop up like, oh, it's beautiful. 02:04:07:17 - 02:04:13:02 Lael So thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for just for being you in the world. 02:04:13:03 - 02:04:22:18 Sarah Thank you all know I've loved it as I should just pop this little note in the in the end that, when Leo contacted me, I nearly lost my marbles. 02:04:22:20 - 02:04:25:18 Lael I got your message like, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. 02:04:25:18 - 02:04:27:20 Sarah Allow, sir oh my God ran up to. 02:04:27:20 - 02:04:28:21 Lael My husband like he's. 02:04:28:21 - 02:04:40:06 Sarah Like, I'm on a work phone. Let me in. I mean anyway, I, I was so I've just yet loved you was so so long. I think what you do is incredible. And it's just been an absolute pleasure. 02:04:40:12 - 02:04:46:08 Lael Well, it is my pleasure. And, when am I come in for dinner? You know, I have not yet. 02:04:46:08 - 02:04:47:09 Sarah I moved house yesterday. 02:04:47:09 - 02:04:58:06 Lael Let me get all the boxes out of the way. I get out and I'm coming over. Can I go through the book and say, which was I thank you for being here. Thank you. Valerie. While. 02:04:58:08 - 02:05:24:08 Lael I so enjoyed that conversation with Sally. And I think the thing I'm really taking away from it is how powerful our imprints around food can be. I think it's a really important conversation or something to think about, like, what were we raised with and what are the stories that we carry around food? Because food is such a big part of our lives, and the imprints that we carry with them can have an impact. 02:05:24:10 - 02:05:43:20 Lael And I think it's a really important thing to have is to to feel in to around how you want that to be. If you are a parent or just what you want your relationship to food to be like, I, you know, I share in this episode that I don't love cooking. It's not a thing that brings me a lot of joy. 02:05:43:20 - 02:06:08:01 Lael But I must admit, and I didn't say these, that over 25 years of cooking family meals for my children, I do, it brings me warmth when I see them all around the table together, whether it's, you know, celebrating what I've cooked or not. It's really around just being together. And the beauty is that the beauty of connecting, I find that just it's really wholesome, it's beautiful. 02:06:08:03 - 02:06:26:23 Lael And I also really just loved talking about, I think the roles that we play, particularly as women, particularly in business, you know, I think one of the things I feel really passionate about is about celebrating women, particularly about having a go, putting their dreams out there, being creative, giving it a crack. I think it's such an important thing. 02:06:27:00 - 02:06:47:16 Lael I think it's something we need to celebrate in each other, not tear each other down, but bitches champion each other when we're brave enough to give it a go. You know, I, I feel so lucky to speak to some of these really amazing, successful women who are doing beautiful things in the world. And and what I love about these conversations is the humanness in all of us. 02:06:47:16 - 02:07:11:22 Lael You know, the struggles with our self-doubt or navigating children work, all these things. I think we're all we're all doing the best we can, and it's really beautiful to see. I think the honesty and and the hustle sometimes that goes on behind the scenes, but also the beautiful joy and how rewarding it is to, to to be authentically you and to follow what you love. 02:07:11:24 - 02:07:15:24 Lael Yeah, I, I was really touched by this episode. 02:07:16:01 - 02:07:42:00 VO Thanks for sharing this time with me. You can find my book on your story at bookshops or listen to the audiobook on audible. I even read it myself. You can stay connected with humans being on Instagram, Facebook or YouTube. We love to hear from you, so please leave a comment, question or contemplation and visit my website Leyla stone.com you where you'll find heaps of great resources and courses for you to explore. 02:07:42:02 - 02:08:05:21 VO This podcast is produced by Nigel Carbon, recorded by the crew at. We make Online Videos and our original music is created by Josh Reed. Human being is produced on the lands of the band. Your own and what around people? We pay respect to their unique and diverse cultures and to elders past, present and future. Until next time, stay connected and don't forget to be human.