Okay, all right, let's talk about some gay shit.

Put on heat in July.

You know, the headphone is.

Just they don't make your hair look cut.

Yeah, especially when you got a little bob.

No.

Yeah, helpfully, everything's heard.

Helpful, Everything's perfect, all right.

So today's topic.

Mm hmmm.

It's a big one.

I've wanted to actually do this one with you for a long time because we're going to talk about your coming out story.

Yeah, because I know it, but I don't think.

I really like I know it.

I'm really excited to talk about it too.

It's something that I literally it's been such a long drawn out process, and we'll talk a little bit about that.

But just being comfortable saying, like on social media that I was gay as something that didn't really come until like after moving here, and I moved to California when I was thirty two.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it's just coming into a space.

And really, whether you're gay or know someone who's gay, or part of the LGBT community, I think it's so important to hold the story for yourself, like what it means to just come into the space of who being who you are.

And I think that a gay person has to experience that in a different kind of way, because it's something that people can see a difference, especially if you are open in a relationship, like open about being in a relationship.

I don't mean open like if you got six husbands, you obviously gay if you do.

But so I'm excited to share it because it's been really good lately.

Literally my current boyfriend.

Now, you were part of setting us up the first my grandfather I found out that I was gay officially because of no So literally last.

Year, your grandfather found out you were a gay grandfather.

I thought you said I found out I was gay officially because I was.

You know, after all the years, all the dicks, dickstick stick sticks?

Is that sure?

Maybe I decided And now now I'm like, yep, this one's sticking.

I'm definitely gay.

Okay, But I.

Can I can't imagine really what that whole experience would be like.

And I've heard so many different people say like, oh, I knew when I was really young, like I knew when I was in kindergarten or something like that.

Did you know when you were really young like that you were gay?

I mean maybe not that word, like maybe you didn't realize it was that, But did you know you were attracted to boys?

No?

Even though I was like and as a little boy, I always identified more like with girly things, and but I just as I got older, I sort of grew out of a lot of that, Like when you stop playing with toys, who cares if you like to play with barbies?

Because you know what I mean?

So or dress up?

Give me yeah, like a house.

I was like, I want to be the mom.

But so it wasn't like so that was obviously like I I identified more you know, like on with my feminine side.

Okay, but I didn't realize that I was attracted.

I thought that like experimentation and stuff.

A lot of little kids have little things here there with their friends, like I'll show you mine if you show me yours type situation.

I just thought that was like curiosity.

I didn't think it was anything to do with sexual desire.

But it's important to note that I grew up very, very religious, so I didn't have space in my mind to even think it was a possibility to be gay.

And also being gay was bad when I was a kid, Like there was a house in our neighborhood that was like always really decorated.

They really went all out for Christmas or Halloween and all these things.

And I didn't know these people.

But what I did know is my parents, who have since changed, but would say, like, be careful when you walk by that house.

They're gay, Like it was something to be afraid of those people.

They were so lost.

So I didn't know in my childhood at all, even though in hindsight I can be like, Okay, I didn't know I was gay, but there were signs, but there was up.

So when did you start to maybe realize then that like you were gay or that you were having attraction.

Was it high school?

Was it middle school?

Was it not until like college years?

Like when was that?

I I it was late, like after I was like nineteen years old when I really started to feel that kind of attraction.

Before that, I just the thing is I love women.

Okay, yeah, so so before that I liked women, and so I had like some girl crushes, but it was all, you know, everything you see all the shows I watched on TV, all of my friends, it's like the guys get with these girls and you're like cute couples.

And I liked that.

I liked the attention.

I liked when like we were in youth group because I was homeschool my whole life.

But the church I went to had the youth group had like two hundred kids in it, so wow, it was a big still a lot of social interaction, so like coupling up and stuff at sixteen seventeen was fun.

But I really didn't have any sexual attraction towards any girl like that, and I thought I was nervous.

I was planning to save sex till marriage because of the church.

I was out all the stuff, so plans definitely want to ride there.

So yeah, I didn't really know.

But when I turned nineteen, I got a job at this restaurant.

It was it was the first place I in Ohio at the time.

It might be like this all over the country, but you couldn't drink till you were twenty one, but you could serve alcohol when you turn nineteen.

So I stopped working at bob Evans that didn't serve alcohol because I want to make more money.

And I got a job at this place and they said let's go to this gay bar and I was like, oh my god.

I was like, I don't know what that's going to be like, but there was part of me that was really excited about it in hindsight, and so they took me.

It was called Celebrities, and it was you know, this is I'm just turned forty and so it was twenty one years ago and Celebrities closed a few years after.

We went.

Okay, but it was like, you know, a gay bar that had been around for fifteen years before that, so since like the early nineties.

So so was this a dive, So it was like just it's sort of it felt like a disco, okay.

And anyways, this guy who was my age so also not drinking but old enough to be in the bar, was like, oh my god, you're so cute and started giving me attention, and I obviously immediately was like I'm straight, but I loved the attention, like I felt really it felt really good.

Okay.

So I think that was the first moment where I was like, but we can be friends.

And probably deep down in the back of like there was a piece of me that was like, I'm finally going to get to be who I am, you know what I mean.

So it was in the back of your mind maybe a little bit or no, it was still like more of a subconscious thing.

It was total.

I didn't have any thought, any fear, any question like what if I'm gay?

That was just not a present.

So but when did that start?

Like, okay, so you bought a celebrity, that kind of started.

So then what happens, like are you at what point do you realize?

Like, well, so the problem is I started doubling down on not being gay because I because you're like friends with a gay person, I started going like we went to celebrities, so I was we.

And then a new gay bar open to my town, club called Mask, and everyone really did go there because it was a really cool club.

So a lot of straight people went there, but it was still a fully gay club, and so me and my friends would go there.

And so because of being in those spaces, I was even more building the narrative that I was not gay, that I was straight, And then I was just.

In those spaces, you're building the narrative.

So you're in the space and you're like, no, I'm not gay.

Yeah, okay, it's like really a mind fuck.

It kind of does sound like yeah, because.

You're like, I love this, but this can't be who I am.

And so you find excuses in ways that it works, like I just love everybody as friends, and the music's great and people are friendly here at straight clubs, people are you know what I mean, Like you just start telling all these stories and stories.

So even though I was in more gay spaces, which felt really good, I was having to say more than ever that I wasn't gay.

So it started this, like I think I and I think internally that's when I started having little feelings, like I'm sure I was seeing guys and feeling attracted to them, and but it's like I had to keep up this persona of being straight.

So it was really weird.

So that went on for a few years, so probably around my don't keep over that, okay.

So and it goes off for a few years.

Fucking what, you're nineteen, Like people at this point are having sex.

You're not.

Nope.

Did you ever have sex with a girl?

One time?

That doesn't really count.

It was it was with a friend, like because I had a girlfriend, but we never slept together, just made out and stuff and stuff.

But I had a friend and it was a few years later.

I think I was probably twenty two or twenty three, and it was one of those like we drank a whole bunch and one thing led to another and it's like, and were you finally like am I in like what's that?

You're like, I don't know, I feel about that, but it was very like like I was like, that's really two when I was like, what am I do?

Okay?

So that was my question.

So after that, were you like, I don't know.

That wasn't what everybody says it's supposed to be.

Yeah, but that was complicated too because it was a friend So I was like, maybe I just feel bad because it complicated our friendship.

It took me a long time to let go of to just accept that I was gay.

Okay, So nineteen you're at the gay bars, doubling down you're not gay.

That goes on for several years, several and you're in your mind you're still you're not gay.

Well, okay, it goes So I turned twenty one, we were at the gay bar.

I never drank before I was twenty twenty one, so adding alcohol, I still when I drank, I wasn't like getting trashed all the time.

But I started drinking because it was fun.

It was something I never did before, and I was like wow, And then I met someone randomly.

We're friends now, but Toddrick was on tour of the Beauty and the Beast Broadway tour.

It was exciting for him.

I didn't know him before meeting him, but that was his first Broadway gig.

Okay, and that's what he got his equity car and all that, and he was like so people were infatuated with him because he was like in town as one of the performers and he just really would light up a room.

And some people felt the same about me, and so we were like kind of started just talking like oh, like you would talk to any stranger at a bar, and we ended up going to get food after and just had to really like really connected.

And he was in Dayton for two weeks, and in those two weeks, I went through an emotional rollercoaster and I did get drunk one night and he drove my car back and he was because I it would have not been good for me to drive.

And we went to not justse and I like me and him and our friend Shay went to his hotel okay and just like to go to sleep, but we kissed and it was the thing where the next day because I had been drinking.

I didn't even red immediately think of it, and I like leave and I was like, oh my gosh, I drank so much last night.

And then all of a sudden, I remembered the kiss and I was like and I was like Donald, and it was this sense of you're you're you're slipping, You're letting go of control of your identity, of what people know about you, of what people think about you.

And I literally then at the end of his trip, was like, I think that just happened because I like made a story of I didn't get enough mail attention in my life, and so he was a So I said, I think that because you're gay and you and I liked the attention I was getting from you.

I didn't kiss you because I wanted to kiss you.

I think I kissed you because I wanted to show up for you in a way that would be meaningful.

I totally gaslight him because the truth is I wanted to kiss him, but I'm like, no, that wasn't for me.

I just did that because I'm insecure.

So if you all want to know, Donald'll just make out with you if you need it.

Yeah, So that was the first That's when I was like, and then he left and he had a tour and.

Wait, I have to ask what was his response that, because I don't really know what Toddrick's coming out story was, or like, so was he just like all right, cool bro, or was he like call me in a week.

When you He was really nice about that because I think he wanted us to stay.

He had feelings for me, and I obviously had feelings for him.

You guys ever talked about it?

Is it looking back?

Was he like, no, man, I knew you were gay, but I was just giving you your space to figure it out.

Yes, well, this story continues.

So he left Dayton, and I felt like in the movies when like the you know, the person's at the train station, the train's going and they just want to run along the train.

I literally it felt such a connection.

And I think it's because it was the first time that I let myself fall into that.

Okay, And also this is really complicated and I'm not saying this is right, but just to be keep at one hundred.

I had a girlfriend at the time, and I love loved her.

I love her.

She was just in the wrong.

She was playing the wrong role in my life, and I didn't want that to be her role.

I wanted it to be real.

I had such strong feelings for her, but it was just like like I had strong feelings for you, you know what I mean.

So anyways, I had convinced myself that that was a drunken moment where I like getting male attention because I missed it from as a child, and then because he is gay, that's why I showed up that way, but it was for him, not me, and that he was not going to happen again.

Anyways, all I could think about was him when he left, and we actually talked a lot, like every night on the phone he would finish his show and whatever city he's in, And they were going to Hershey, Pennsylvania, like two and a half months or so after that, maybe three months after it, and he was like you should come, and I was like, I'll come, and he'd say, less, I'm already ready, yeah, and he was like oh.

And I literally borrowed an acquaintances car because it was like an I think it was a nine hour drive and I had never driven.

I didn't think my car would be good to drive that far.

Okay, and you know it was this is two thousand and seven.

So I burned a couple good CDs for the road trip and totally as a friend, quote drove to see him.

But I also lied.

And this is the thing about I'm really understanding or empathetic when people like create these stories because they're afraid of just being honest with who they are.

And as much as I regret lying, it was me just protecting myself in that way.

But I told people that I was going that I was also at this time in my life part of this talent agency.

And I told someone I met someone at a thing with his talent agency, and I'm so embarrassed by this.

Someone had like passed and I was going to the service.

That's why I had to drive that far.

Oh my god, I.

Know, because I was like, wait a minute, you didn't even tell.

First of all, we're rerecording this.

Episode because our audio didn't record last time we did that, so I'm kind of glad the universe.

It was like you ain't gonna give just a little breath.

First of all, it was like we got all the emotional stuff last time.

I didn't get any of them.

The dirt.

The dirt, Yeah, Okay, So I told people I was going to a funeral, I was actually going to see well, because that one was going to be like, why are you Because if I was like I'm going to anything else for a nine hour drive borrowing a car, and if I was like, I'm going to meet this guy, which my my mom knew who Toddrick was because she got him.

I mean, he got her free tickets to beating the Beest.

Well like he he was a friend as far as everyone na.

But you didn't feel comfortable saying I'm going to see my friend, yeah, which is so funny because again red flag mom, hm, seeing the same sex friend, no big deal, right, seeing the opposite sex friend.

Usually you're like, huh was all but it's funny your mind because he was gay even though he's still a guy.

You're a guy, people know you as straight.

You were like, I have to lie, yeah.

Clify people, and I and people expected now that I was I was doubling down on my story.

Was anybody asking you if you were gay or was anybody like questioning talking about.

Oh, my friends all defended me.

Donald is not gay.

He's just literally I mean what I listen, that's what you do for your friends until they say otherwise.

That is their that is their story and their truth to find on their own.

So yeah, so anyways, drive to hersh But so as we're going, you know, so his tour set up everything for the like their rooms and stuff, and he was like, he was like, do you want me to ask them for two beds?

Like I always get one bed because he got his own room.

But he was like, do you want me to ask for two beds?

And I was like no, I mean, it doesn't matter, it's okay, you don't have to go out of your way.

It's like obviously gay as hell, like wanting to sleep in this same bed where.

He's offering you to have a second bed in the room, No big deal.

Yeah, yeah, that's too much of a hassle, like they have to wheel the bed in or something.

Yeah, And so it ended up being like a little obviously well he was like yeah, I'm sure he was talking to his friends like this straight guy.

Yeah.

And so I went and and it was really fun.

It was it was really cool, and and it was it was gay over yeah, no, like we definitely, you know what I really appreciate about that time, And I'm a spiritual person.

So I always say like, I'm thankful because I feel like the universe or God really put me in a lot of safe spaces because I could have driven that far to meet up with someone who I knew for two weeks and been in a really vulnerable position and sort of pressure to do things I wasn't ready to do, and nothing like that happened.

But it was a very sweet to me.

It felt romantic and appropriate, like in ways that I was comfortable exploring that.

Okay, so you get there.

Whenever the second kiss happens, are you like.

Fuck?

Are You're still like I'm just showing up for him?

I know.

Then it turned in I don't know, like I have feelings.

It sort of turned into and so it's really not about It's really about what I was going through at that time.

Toddricks just happens to be the person at that time of my life.

I'm like, so, well, I said to him, it's just I just have these feelings for you, but I can't be gay.

Okay, So you're like, you're understanding that now you have feelings for this person, Yes, but I still am not identifying as that.

Yeah, and we can't be together because he was like, Okay, you know, we were young twenties where you where if you have feelings for someone, you're like, this is going to be my person forever.

And I was thinking that and feeling that, but I couldn't accept it got it.

So I was like, you know, and then but for years he and I kind of had that well just I guess I can speak for myself.

For years, I really had strong feelings for him and would take trips or go places for extended periods of time to be around him, and it was really difficult because I didn't I lacked the emotional maturity to understand what I was feeling, so it was all about him in my mind.

And so that's that's when I was like, okay, I'm started to realize I'm I'm I would say I'm by, or I would say in the religious circle I came from, I would say I have same sex attraction because that also is like a knowledging something you feel without making it a declaration of who you are, Okay, And I wasn't ready at that time to be like, I'm gay.

So if you were, if you were saying to somebody, I have same sex attraction what were What would that response be, Well, like with somebody like boo, you gay, Well that's.

How what a normal person.

But in my church, it would be well, let's pray for God to heal that, oh to take it away?

Okay, yeah, like we yeah, Like they didn't say, oh, this person's gay because they didn't believe anyone was gay.

They would say, everyone, they're struggling.

There's sun sex attraction because of whatever happened to them, not because they were born that way.

It always was because yeah, so okay, So that leads me to another question.

Then, so do you start then searching your mind for like, what happened to me to make me have same sex attraction?

Totally?

I did.

I kind of even made made I didn't make up stories, but my parents had me so young that I was like, you know, I didn't get.

I didn't get like my dad wasn't as present for me.

You know.

Now I just turned forty.

I was thinking of me being born my dad's twenty.

He was very present, but he was also still growing and so there's just different things.

And also now I obviously believe I was born gay, and I think you just when you have expectation to connect with like a father's son, throwing a ball and doing these things.

And when you don't get that, you're like, that's what turned me gay when you actually didn't get that because I don't give a fuck about throwing a ball, rot this Barbie's goddamn hair with me, or keep it moving dad, right, I.

Said, frends pray the skirt doesn't match wrong with Jesus, but I did.

Okay, Okay, So now you're dealing.

So what age?

Are we still at twenty one at this?

So we're like that was like twenty one to twenty three.

I was sort of wrapped up and I was lying about my feelings for Toddrick.

But I had an on and off thing with him and then some other guys in between, because you know, we'd be like getting a fie and then I would just go out and talk to somebody else and sort of but it was never it was.

It was so unhealthy because in my mind it was so like momentary.

It's sort of like I can't speak to this, but I imagine when someone has an addiction toward to really hard drugs, how they just need a fix.

That's how I was treating these gay experiences.

Like a little fix so that then I can get by my ordinary life.

And it makes a lot of sense.

I even heard being gay is different than being a trans person, but I heard about before.

It just makes me think of this before Caitlin, when Brute, when Bruce Jenner before became Caitlyn Jenner.

I still don't know exactly if I should always refer to that person as Kaitlyn now, But would back in the day, like take trips and dress up like a woman and walk through places just to get that right, just to heeal it.

Yeah, and I think that that's what I was experiencing.

But still in my church and with my friends and with my family and people closest to me, I couldn't be honest, and so it was a really lonely I was going to say.

So, you're keeping this all to yourself, You're hiding it from everybody.

You're probably having to lie more at this point of like where you're going or who you're with, and were you still living at home with your parents?

So I lived at home.

The thing about early on, in not twenty one to twenty three time frame, I left.

I did things for several months at a time with Toddrick, whether they would be like show projects one of his musicals, like you would work on them, Yeah, and that would take me out of out of my hometown.

Okay, but then it would those times that often end like with me not being able to stay because I get too wrapped up emotionally because in my mind, it's not about me being gay.

It's about this person is just the love of my life, and it's so heavy and confusing at that time.

Okay, So so so we're twenty three now.

I didn't realize it was this long for you.

Yeah, I guess because by the time I met you.

You well, by the time I met you, I knew you were gay.

When I met you, Yeah, my sister wasn't sure if you were gay.

I was like, You're like, really, are we talking about the same person.

I was like, I'm pretty sure it is.

But you seemed you definitely by the time I met you, which was I think like thirty two.

You were about thirty two when I met.

You, you were comfortable in it.

So obviously, like at what point, So twenty three, so when do you finally go.

I'm gay, I'm gay, you know, like being able to say I'm gay, really didn't start until my thirties.

Really, yeah, like I would.

I would.

I would be like, oh, I like him.

It's because of how I was programmed and how I was raised.

I couldn't you, right, but but I did.

You went twenty years without being able to say it.

You were like nine or not twenty.

Ten, Yeah, without saying I'm gay, Like I came out to my mom when I was so, okay, I want to get I.

Want to get to that.

Yeah, but okay.

So I guess the question is is from the time you realized it, how long was it until you told somebody, be it your mom or a friend or whoever, that you realize you're gay.

I started telling people I start.

I wouldn't talk about it in that way.

I would say to my close some of my close friends, a few of them, like I like every like.

I would say things like if the lights are off, who's going to turn them on?

To check?

Like I would turn really vulgar.

But it's because that felt more acceptable than like saying I was good okay and so, or being like I like everybody, I'm an equal opportunity.

I would start saying things like that, which also was not true, right, and it still was also causing pain because there were some females in my life that I would lead on just because I wanted.

I couldn't let go of.

I couldn't accept the fact that I was not going to be with a woman right, which is crazy now.

So it was around twenty three, twenty four years old.

I probably started opening up some friends about it.

But if someone would ask if I was gay, I would never say yes.

I'd be like, oh, you know, it's weird.

I in my mind at the time, it just I just couldn't say I was gay, so you would just sort of avoid the question, or you would just I think I would to always talk about a circumstance.

I'd be like, I don't think i'd say I'm by, but I'd be like, well, it depends on who's asking, you know what I mean, like.

A joke exactly, so where nobody would really quite be able to tell is he just being funny.

Kind of like yeah, and people can kind of tell too, it's like, Okay, he's not about to actually have a conversation about.

That, Okay, so shut it down.

Yeah, playfully shut it down.

Yeah.

So five years already, Yeah, that you're having all.

The feelings but are not willing to accept the feelings.

Yeah.

So was there like a moment or a person, I don't know, was it Togic or somebody that made you just like realize like, Okay, this is me and I'm going to have to start accepting it.

Well, I think Togic was the start of it, and then as things started happening more, I just started realizing, like, I'm constantly drawn to this.

So then I told myself, when I move, I'll be able to and I didn't mean out of my parents.

I'm out of Ohio.

I can be honest with all of these people I love because I'll be far enough away that because I didn't know how I could live in the space with people who A had religious and spiritual beliefs against being gay, and B I'd been lying to right and over and they defended me.

I mean my cousin Sarah, she came to my birthday party.

She was like artist, She no, that's Maggie.

I'll show you a picture.

Yeah, a lot of people were at that party, so they but Sarah got me my first job at Bob Evans and some guy actually like wrote me a note and was said I was cute and stuff, and it made me very uncomfortable because I was just sixteen at that time, and I in no way had accepted that.

And it felt like when when you're a kid, like when I was little, and someone would be like, are you girl or a boy?

Like I felt so identity people would ask you that when you were here.

That's probably because you know, I was limp wristed and like high boys and doing some kind of dance and address what could have confused anywhere but like full contour beat face.

But she literally punched him in the face.

My family, there's some scrappers, okay for it?

Yeah, And so she literally walked up and popped him in the face and said, you don't talk to my cousin like that.

Because I was so we were so it was like, how am I going to come out to a world of people who have defended me this way?

Okay?

So that's what I told you.

So you knew you wanted to move out of Ohio obviously, yes?

And was any of that feeling of wanting to move out of Ohio because of everything you were experiencing or you just obviously wanted to I mean, it's Ohio I know if it's raised.

But yeah, I think I wanted to move because I liked the idea of like being in a bigger city and stuff, even though I hadn't really traveled much before that.

But also I think subconsciously, like the part of me that I wasn't really letting speak or make decisions was like, let me go someplace where I can.

You decided to go to Nashville, to the Bible Belt.

So yeah, great decision.

A story gets better by the minute.

Okay.

Yeah, so I So anyways, I Toddrick thing kind of fizzled out.

Like I said, we're still friends so now today.

So it fizzled out in a way.

It's like I started having other experiences with other people or feelings or crushes, and it was like, Okay, this is me, not just something that he like, I have that exactly okay.

And I started to know but like not share, and it was just a lot of lying, okay.

And when I got the opportunity to go on a tour with my brother's band, Anthem Lights.

They're a Christian band, and the tour was in a lot of churches, a couple like high school football fields, and we had one arena, but all the other places were like these big churches.

And that's the first time I came out to a family member.

I talked to my brother because so your brother was the first one to know.

I think he was the first family immediate family member to know.

Okay, because I was like, I can't go on this tour because I was going on as a guest singer with his band.

And I was like, if this comes out somehow or you know, like whatever, I don't want him to be blindsided.

So I took him to sushi and I was like, we were just, you know, shooting the ship, eating sushi, and I was like, I want to talk to you about something.

I was like, okay, and so it got really emotional.

And it's you know, when you have years of lying and hiding and being a secret and then you start to let that come out, the physical feeling you have, it's like you can't speak.

I mean that's how you feel, like, right, I've always wanted to say.

It's like, oh my god, but I finally got it out.

We're both crying.

So you're sitting at sushi at sushi in the middle of this half off sushi place in Dayton, Ohio.

It's like how frescing is half off sushi be but and it was just a really beautiful conversation.

He told me he loved me and he couldn't imagine how hard that would be, and he really appreciated me telling him.

And did you do the tour?

I did the tour?

Okay?

And he was okay with it.

He wasn't like, yes, but we didn't.

I didn't tell anyone else.

I wasn't out.

I just told him.

You just told him, like which God forbid a closeted Christian music artist?

Like, trust me, the industry is flatted with him.

Just out at everybody, all a list.

If you're doubting it, reach out to your friends.

I smacked my face on this microphone three times, maybe.

Further back from it.

But now that I'm not tied to the headphones, so funny, Okay.

So so I came out to some friends.

Know now your brother knows, but you're still not comfortable.

Well, and you know another note, Like when I came back from uh one of my trips early on that I went to with Toddrake, I went to a church and I was actually employed at this church as the worship leader.

And the pastor at the time, who who's my friend, also is gay but was closet it's female.

She was she was not out okay, and I didn't know she was gay because and it's so weird, you'd think like game would recognize game.

But we were both just like lying to ourselves and everybody else and each other, and we could have been there to support each other, but it just wasn't in the realm of possibility for us.

And she sat me down and she started sobbing, like almost shaking, telling me that after I went on that trip, I was acting more gay and the way I was walking was different.

And I know it's terrible, but hear me out.

It was very, very painful for me to hear.

But she was crying and shaking while she was saying and what that was was her, of course seeing like someone else who's in the same position of her, starting to loosen the reins, starting to lose control of the narrative of what we want people to believe, of everything being okay, and we're the two most visible people in the church.

She was giving the sermons, I was leading the worship.

I mean we obviously there's worship teams other people on stage, but I was like, I'm not gay.

I'm not gay, Like it's okay.

So it was just so layered.

Was she asking you if you were gay?

Or was she like jurning.

Me, like you can't be gay.

You can't be gay, you just can't.

We can't have a gay whorsel leader.

You can't.

That's what she was saying, And really she was just saying it about herself, totally obviously, totally.

Yeah, okay, and we're very good friends now yeah, like family, and neither of us work in the church currently.

So anyway, so okay, So.

You moved in at your in Nashville at this point.

So when I did that tour with my brother, it was in twenty thirteen.

I it was the end of twenty twelve, beginning of twenty thirteen.

That's when I moved to Nashville.

It was based out in Nashville, and I was like, I was ready for a move, and I just leap of faith.

I literally didn't even have a thousand dollars to my name.

I found I had a friend who was like, you can sleep on my couch till you find a place.

I stayed with her for like three weeks and then someone else needed a roommate back at our rent.

Like my portion of it was like four hundred and twenty dollars a month.

Oh, I know.

When I lived in Saint Louis, I literally paid like three hundred.

Dollars for like and I was like, I hope I can do it.

In my half of a two bedroom right in LA and paid six hundred for a studio.

And was like, I'm not going to be able to live exactly.

But we digress.

Okay.

Yeah, So I was in Nashville and I started I was no longer working at the church of the story I just told, but I was singing at a much larger church.

I wasn't the worship leader, but they paid us to sing and they had five services a weekend and they still had me come back from Nashville to Ohio to sing every once in a while.

And I was driving back one weekend to sing.

So this is early part of twenty thirteen, and I will you're how old.

So I would have been like twenty seven.

I would have turned twenty eight that year.

Okay, So I was twenty seven, and it was in February.

Actually, I remember because it was the same week.

The coming week was going to be Valentine's Day, and I was driving back to Ohio to singing the church, and I just felt emotional and I was like, you said when you moved you were going to be honest.

And I'd opened up to my brother, one of my brothers.

I opened up to a lot of my friends.

Never used the words I was gay, okay, but I would like share my feelings.

I would share truths about like what happened with Toddrick because they all knew him as my friend.

I was like lying about all these different things.

Yeah.

So that's when I was like, I went and I got in.

I think on a Friday.

I sang two services on Saturday, three services on Sunday, and by the last service on Sunday, I could barely get through the songs and I was singing like in a microphone leading and I was so emotional.

I called my mom.

I knew I had to tell her.

You're like, you're like, it's here, it's explode.

I couldn't have served it.

So I went and she was like cooking in the kitchen and she was the only person there, and I checked to make sure because I didn't want to have a shared conversation with her because I love her and my dad, but our relationships are different, and I just wanted to have that moment with her.

And so I was like, I wanted to talk to you about something.

She was like okay, and I was like, all of a sudden, that same feeling when I was talking to my brother, like there was a there was something in my throat, there was an elephant sitting on my chest.

I was like, and she was like, you can tell me anything.

She could tell.

I was really struggling with what trying to say something, and I was like, well, I just want to say before I do, I can't have you respond like this is my time to share, and I can.

I can barely hold my feelings.

I don't have room to hold yours.

So that's pretty impressive to even think to say that.

Yeah, So so she just listened.

She looked at me, and I could tell what heartfelt was listening.

And I was like, you know how I've always had friends been friends with gay people.

And I mentioned my friend Gina because she came out since we met her, and I mentioned Toddrick, and I mentioned some other people and I was like, well, I always made it, and I'm saying it calmly right now, but I was crying, of course.

I was like, I always have talked about them, like I care about them and God loves them, and like I stand up for them, but I actually identify with them.

Like that's how I said it.

I was gay.

I didn't.

I didn't say I'm gay, and she was like, okay, and I was like, I'm really sorry.

I just always wanted to make you proud.

But I was like, I realized I can't control these feelings, but I can control being a liar, and I feel like not telling you started to feel like lying, and You're the last person that I would want to lie to.

And she was like, I love you.

Nothing would make me not feel proud of you.

And because of the narrative we heard, I said, don't blame dad.

Why would you say don't blame dad, because because again the male attention.

Male attention showing up, not throwing a ball with me, all those silly stories that you're taught in the church world that we grew up in h And her initial response was why And I said, because it's not his fault, mom, And she was really struggling, and I said, I'm going to go, and you were the I was, so I was like keeping a force field around you finding out.

So I was like, if you need to call your prayer chain and tell them what I've told you, your friends, you can literally talk to anyone.

This isn't a secret anymore.

I said.

And if you feel that it's wrong and that I need to change, talk to God about it.

But don't talk to me because if I feel that you start to try to manipulate me or change me in our conversations, it will affect our relationship and how close we are.

Wow.

And she was like okay, and I left.

Then I left.

I was like, bob it good luck find me the problem.

Yeah, and I have a go go dancing shift.

So I'm just kidding, shake ass, No, okay, that's a joke.

Yeah.

I alwould say, God, never let me have the body I really wanted, because you knew I'd be some like a hard, lifelong stripper.

I would retire on that box anyway.

Don't be so sure.

Yeah, but we have to.

It's getting dangerously close to the day.

Okay, So you have that conversation with your mom.

Ye, First of all, I just want to acknowledge, Like you're talking about again almost ten years from the time you start to have feelings to the time you actually tell your mom and acknowledge it for yourself, kind of you haven't even fully acknowledged it for yourself.

I just think it's so important because I mean, we're in California, We're in Los Angeles, where it's so accepted everywhere that you just don't even stop to think that people might have be going through these struggles obviously.

I mean I have had, have had and have so many friends that are a part of the LGBTQ.

And I know there's yes other letters that have been added.

You know, I was a dancer, so I grew up in the world, so it was never really like but I was in Ohio, so it wasn't ever.

As a kid.

I didn't have no we did.

There was one.

There was a photographer Monroe that might like that was friends with my dad, So it was just never talked about.

But I remember seeing the first time when I got to college.

College was the first time I ever saw two guys kiss.

Like I remember walking out my door room and seeing two guys kiss.

So I'm just saying it's while while we're so used to it now.

I think for people listening, it's so important to understand how hard this experience could be for somebody Like I never realized.

It was that long for you, And it doesn't need to be that hard, like we can and I love and now, like my mom is so committed to making helping people know that there's safe space and helping other parents who are from conservative religious backgrounds know that like their beliefs, could you could sort of take a second look ask yourself, is this real?

Like or is it doing more damage?

Is it worth?

What's law?

Like what you could lose with your family?

And I just want to say too.

After I came out, I started realizing even sitting here, when I was young, like I like someone was thrown away all these bodybuilding magazines and I kept them and hid them because of the guys like I have.

It's a lot of traction.

But when you when you people, when you grow up in the type of borderline cult religious background that I grew up in, there was no room for me to actually think am I gay?

Right?

It was just this like wild instinctual attraction that I would turn my mind off to when it wasn't happening.

Yeah.

What I was going to say about that was it's so interesting to me though, that you would hide it because a boy looking at a bodybuilding magazine isn't a big deal because that's like I just like write like women looking at fitness magazines like that.

But to you, because you weren't looking at it thinking I want to be a bodybuilder, like you knew in your mind that it.

Needed to be hidden.

Yeah, but it's like.

If your parents would have found a bodybuilding magazine, they probably wouldn't thought twice about it.

Mm hmm, right, Like they find a playboy, they're going to be upset.

Yeah, but they're not going to think my son as a bodybuilding magazine.

That's a problem.

Well.

I learned about correcting my behavior very young because I wanted to play dress up and boys don't do that.

Or I wanted to play with barbies and they're like, well here, play with g I Joe's instead, okay.

Or I wanted to watch you know, a Little Mermaid and they'd be like, well, why don't we watch this instead.

It's like them at their very young age and the plays they grew up in.

Just you learn about having to correct your what you want and your behavior to try and be how you're a quote supposed to be.

Did your mom, like I'm talking about now, since obviously you've come out and everything, did your mom ever end up saying like, well, looking back, I sort of.

Knew no, but it would be really interesting, like to have this conversation with her because even like me, like I'm just remembering things like those magazines, or when we first got internet, I was had a teen behind my name.

I think I was younger than sixteen.

I would like or see things online, you know, and my dad one time was like I saw what you guys were looking out online, and I'm just gonna say I wanted to stop.

And I don't know if he was talking to my brothers, it was me.

It was like it wasn't porn, but it was like gay erotic shit.

Oh, it wasn't like hardcore porn, but it was like guys in speedos and stuff like that, like normal thing.

It's normal, but it felt so unnormal.

There wasn't room for it to be normal.

And also when I was a teenager and young adult, I became aware of my mom's cousin who had passed away.

His name was Jimmy, and he was gay and in a life partnership and he died of aids oh wow, and the family like talked about him fondly but also blamed his homosexuality as if it killed him, except for my grandmother, who I was very close to, and I never came out to her, and she died shortly after we wrapped filming eighty Day Obsession.

But she did say to me, you know Donald, because that would have been her nephew.

My nephew, Jimmy.

I loved him, and he came over and he used to say Aunt Bunkie.

They all called her Aunt Bunkie, Aunt Bunkie.

I'm really trying to change.

I went to the priest and asked him to pray for me, and she said.

I told him, Jimmy, I'm a bunkie.

Doesn't care about what you do.

I just don't need to know the details about She said, I don't care if you do it in the kitchen, in the living room and your bedroom, and I want you to have fun and be safe.

I don't have to know the details, and no it neither does anyone else.

But I just love you, and I feel like when my grandma told me that she was telling you.

She's telling me I love you, and that's how I hold that conversation.

It's crazy, though, that you your grandma passed at the end of filming of Eighty Day Obsession and you never came out to her.

You're like on.

TV gay gee, no question by the end of eighty Day if you were gay.

Well, you know what's so funny?

Even like in twenty sixteen seventeen, like my first boyfriend, I introduced my parents to like official boyfriend.

His name is Chad.

He lives in Nashville, and he's still a friend of the family.

But I still was very nervous.

Even though my both my parents knew I was gay.

I was so nervous about being honest about having a boyfriend, like because that made it real and they'd have to see it.

I carried shame for so long, longer than I had to Wow, I mean.

My gosh, I do not know that, like honestly, Like I watched your personality change a little bit, not a lot, but I did watch you become more comfortable with yourself the longer you were here, like from when you left Nashville to when you got here, and then the longer you've been here.

Yeah, but I did not realize that.

Geez, when you moved here, you were still experiencing it.

What was your dad's reaction?

So my dad, I didn't end up telling him.

I just was so emotionally drained and I was like I told my mom.

I was like, I'm not going to be able to tell dad, but I will tell him if you don't just not right now, but if you feel that you need to share with him, you totally can.

I didn't feel like it was like I needed that conversation with my mom.

I didn't need it with anyone else oh that way.

And so the reason I said I remembered it was Valentine's Day is because I think it was Thursday that week after the weekend was Valentine's Day, and I got a text from my dad on that day that said I love you, don and if you need to talk, I'm here for you.

Oh yeah, and I was like, it meant a lot.

I mean I got several texts like that over over the next couple months from aunts and uncle and people just saying things like I talked to your mom and I can't imagine how hard it's been to carry that secret.

And I'm glad though that they were so.

Just so empathetic.

Yeah, that it wasn't being the way you grew up, that it wasn't a well.

I have an aunt now who has literally like unfriended me, and even I think last year, so as recent as last year sent me a message like, it's not too late to turn from my wicked ways.

What you never told me this?

Yeah, she's on my She's on my side, and I'm I'm closer to my mom's side of the family just because we grew up more around them.

I love my dad's side of the family.

But this particular aunt, bless her is probably until the day she die, is just going to be like the Bible thumping.

Being gay is wrong voice and it is hurtful.

But you know the nice thing about waiting, because that would be really that would be really hard to get those messages if I came out when I was twenty one, Like let's say the day I kissed Todgic.

The next day I was like, guys, some shit went down.

I think I'm gay now When I see that, I really just feel bad for her, right, and I feel a responsibility to share my story because people like her speak loudly yes, and we need to speak just as loud of acceptance and love.

And because in secret is where people find themselves in dangerous positions.

So yeah, but I am thankful that I got all those two.

And my dad also showed my mom another picture.

She told me this late later, and showed me the picture he saw online, a picture that he was like, I think God showed me this because it helped me with Donald.

And it was a picture of a blue collar, working class man, very much same demographic as my dad, and he was holding the picture was black and white, and he was holding a sign that said I fixed machines all day for a living, but I can't fix my gay son.

And then there was another picture of him in color, and he was holding a sign that said because he's not broken.

And even right now when I say that, it makes me like get a little teary eyed, because something so simple can speak volumes to someone.

And I think about like a dad like my dad, not knowing how to connect with a gay to not knowing how there's no there's no textbook to be a parent as it is, and when you come from that world and all of a sudden you have a gay son and you come you have a sister who's you know what I mean.

Yeah, I just thought that was so cool and such a profound thing.

And for him to say and make that statement like Donald's not broken, He's how he's supposed to be.

So they were on board before I was.

It was great because I struggled a lot after I came out with them.

I felt exposed and I went through a little bit of a depressed like now I'm being honest, but I've let go of every like the reputation I was trying to hold making people proud.

So I felt like I get to be honest, but now I'm a disappointment and my parents get my brothers and they get to have wives and kids and normal lives, and my parents get to talk about them and be proud.

And so you didn't feel like even though they were totally accepting.

I believe that they were ashamed.

Okay, so you just felt like, Okay, how lovely they love me, but really like there's You're a disappointment.

They they loved me, but they wished I was different.

That's what I thought, but that's not true, of course, And it just took time and healing for me to realize that.

You had you mentioned before you told me that your mom.

Actually you didn't know it at first, but your mom stopped.

I don't I don't know how you said it.

Like praying to God or talking to God or yeah.

So so shortly so I was in that depressed phase.

And then there was this church in Nashville, and this is a really good good place to like put a cap on my coming out story.

It really meant a lot.

This pastor of the huge church, a lot of celebrities went, Carrie Underwood went, was like feeling really conflicted because he hadn't made an affirmation statement for gay people in his church, and he just felt like he was writing a line and that was not right.

He is straight, and there's I love a straight white male ally like someone who it doesn't matter to him, didn't speak out for gay's personally.

He just feels this conviction to do what's right.

So anyways, he did make this statement and then the church really took a huge dive in attendance because of it, went from like twenty twenty five hundred people to like three hundred people.

But he was never regretted it and he's his name is Stan Mitchell and if anyone is interested in seeing some really amazing posts and support for families and people of the LGBTQ community, check him out on Facebook.

Anyways, he did a midweek service talking about the Bible and why it was important for him to become affirming of gays and so a lot of churches are accepting, but they won't marry you, they won't let you work with children, they won't employ you.

And he was like, it is no different.

That's what affirming means.

Like, whether you're gay or straight, you are a child of God and you can serve in this place as anyone else can.

Obviously still do background checks if you're working with kids and stuff like that.

It's not just anyone.

Yeah.

So I sent it the video to my mom and this is like two years after I came out to her, and she was like, I was like, how did you feel about that video?

And she said, I feel like I can read my Bible again.

I was like, what are you talking about, because you know, I grew up homeschooled and my mom every morning when I got up was listening to worship music and reading her Bible and she said, when you came out to me, I felt like I had to choose everything I thought I knew and understood about God or you.

And she was like, and I'll choose you every time.

And she literally she said, I closed my Bible and put it down.

Yes, And she said, I just felt like if there wasn't room for you, then I didn't want to be a part of it.

And when she saw that sermon, she was like, I feel like I get to now have that thing that I loved again and love you.

So it was really cool and it meant a lot to me because she could have done that and told me, but she really respected when I said, I can't hold your journey and your feelings like I'm dealing with mine.

Do you talk?

And she actually told me she went to a therapist because she was so mad at God because how could God not love me?

She It wasn't even like so she wasn't.

Mad at God that you were where you were.

She was mad at God for being.

She was like, if I want a relationship with God, Donald is amazing and if Donald can't be accepted, then I don't want to be accepted.

And even her therapist was like, do you really think all knowing, all loving, all powerful God doesn't accept Donald.

You don't think there's a fault in that thinking, and so it's just it's so anyways, it was really beautiful and that began a really special just openness and journey and now my whole family, Like it feels so good to be to bring Noll, my boyfriend now the love of my life, to my parents' house and play with the kids and it just be like family.

And because it's something that you know, years ago, I didn't think could ever happen.

So yeah, listen, I think it's amazing.

This has been so interesting and like eye opening for me to hear this side of your story, because in eight years, I think you've given me little pieces of it.

But I'm kind of understanding now why I had no idea that even the first year you were here, Like I remember we went to New York, we went and saw Todrick, We went and saw them in kiki boots, We went to his apartment, we hung out, Like I had no idea you were still carrying a lot of those feelings, like.

Even on my Instagram stories.

Then I spoke differently because that's what you learn to correct your behavior when you just don't know if the world will accept you, so I would talk a lot more.

It's so cringe now, Like if I see ANTD video, I'm like, Jesus Christ, don't who were you being?

If anything, it's like I should have been canceled for some kind of appropriation.

I'm like, what the who am I talking like?

And it feels really good just to be really happy and for the like I can say now today, And I never thought I would say this.

If I could have a whole different life and be straight, I wouldn't want to.

I love who I am.

I love who I am, and that's just really special.

I love that you're there, and I love honestly that you have one that you're sharing it on our podcast.

But also people have like.

Watched you now obviously like in the Body, Realm and the World like background cast, and I just think it's like another deeper understanding of you and honestly appreciating all the personality that you brought to those sets, even in those moments I guess where you were still struggling a little bit.

Yeah you still.

I do feel like though looking back, like you still showed up as Donald, but again.

I was actually did an eighty day obsession work out today because I could only do resistance band the work right now, so I did booty.

And it is funny because when I look at you then and like, this barely looks like Donald, And it's not your appearance.

I think it's I do think it's the way you carried yourself, not that you carried yourself in a bad way, but I can see the difference from then twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen, really moving from that to twenty twenty five and how much you've grown into Donald Samper.

Well, just a note on that.

The Beach Body Body community and being in those programs is a huge part of what made me being comfortable with myself because of the messages of people being like when you were struggling, I got that, or when you said that, or when you made that face, and it just all those little messages were reminders like I'm not supposed to be anybody else in this world except for myself, and that helps people, yes, And so it's been amazing.

Well, I think speaking of helping people, we should drop some.

I thank you.

I'm literally the word went out of my brain.

I was like we should drop some resources because I think your story is really powerful.

I think that people are going to listen that might be struggling with a family member or a friend, loved one, or maybe you know, trying to help them or trying to understand it for themselves.

So we will drop some resources in the show notes.

Absolutely, and I would like to say too, if you're a mother and you're struggling how to show up for your child, please feel free to reach out to my mom.

She really does believe that that's part of her purpose now.

Her name's Genie Stamper, and you can find her on socials or hit me up.

But just specifically, if you're a mom in that position and you need you don't know anyone else who's been through it, she would.

Love to You can always email us at Everything's Perfect Podcast at gmail dot com.

As always, like.

Subscribe, comment, leave a review.

We always appreciate that, and we will.

See you guys for the next one.

See you next time.

When then dies, Others focusate, sting a line, amothering, cry, the talk of the block,