Hi everyone.

Thanks for checking out the Safe Travels Podcast.

My name is Joey.

Today we're at Rocky Mountain National Park and I had the chance to sit down with Mike Lukens.

Mike is the wilderness and climbing program supervisor here at this iconic national park and in this episode we cover a whole lot from rock climbing to wilderness and backcountry experiences, search and rescue missions, and a whole lot more.

Mike, we are at beautiful Rocky Mountain National Park.

We have Longs Peak right behind us and we're getting some rain right now.

Yeah.

Hopefully just a slight drizzle but you are the wilderness and climbing supervisor here at Rocky Mountain National Park.

Yeah.

You've been here for fifteen years.

What's it like to work in such a special place?

You know I moved here years ago for work, and I haven't left for a reason of course.

It's amazing in the fact that we have such diverse ecosystems in the park.

We have mountains obviously and so many different activities in different places to explore.

So it's been, you know, I've worked for the Park Service for a while.

I've been in different locations but obviously I've stayed for a reason.

I was telling you before we sat down to do this podcast, I was doing some research on your specific role as a park ranger and on the National Park Service website list off jobs and it says that a climbing supervisor is among some of the most skill wise elite rangers in the park service.

How does that make you feel?

I mean, it's a you know, climbing rangers in general.

So I supervise climbing rangers.

I've been a long term climbing ranger prior to being a supervisor of that work group.

You know, it's a it's just a very specific skill set that's necessary to be successful in the job.

So if that makes us a lead or not, I don't know.

We're Yeah.

Gonna talk all about climbing in this episode but are also gonna talk about SAR and PSAR for folks who are unfamiliar with that preventative search and rescue steps that we can take before we head out to the park to to stay safe.

But I do wanna dive into your journey a little bit more.

Believe you grew up in Washington State.

I did.

Yeah.

I grew up in Port Angeles on the Olympic Peninsula.

Literally Olympic National Park was my backyard and I grew up with one of the long term rangers from Olympic, kind of infamous guy, Jack Hughes as my neighbor.

So that was a unique, you know childhood for me.

I was able to spend a lot of time in the woods in in a national park and explore.

Had park rangers come to my class and that's really how I got my exposure to the park service and they're saying there was even a career in this type of work.

When you saw rangers come to your class, did it inspire you to wanna wear the gray and green one day?

Yeah.

I would say at the end of the day the fact that park rangers came into my class, took us into the park on field trips and you know, being able to explore and go on camping trips and climbing trips and the Olympics really influenced influenced my decision to work for the park service.

What got you interested specifically in climbing is climbing big in Olympic?

You know mountaineering is pretty big, know, it's Olympic Mountains but like technical rock climbing, ice climbing, things like that are not huge.

You know, for a wider reason since I was a kid reading books about, you know, folks climbing in the Himalayas and all over the world always got me interested and I didn't really start climbing till I was in Boy Scouts in middle school, doing mountaineering trips in the in the Olympics and then later on in the Cascades getting into more rock climbing and ice climbing and things like that.

And I climbed Mount Rainier at like the age of 16 with a group of friends.

But I spent a lot of time just exploring the Olympics and doing what we would consider general mountaineering.

I know this could be tough to choose but is there a specific peak that you've reached that stands out to you that you know was a life goal of yours or was a special experience?

Anywhere in the world?

Yeah.

Anywhere in Yeah.

The

I mean, let's see, two winters ago I climbed Suratori in Patagonia and I've been on like the tick list.

I'd tried it prior and got shut down due to weather and conditions.

I spent a fair amount of time in Patagonia over the years climbing in the winter here but then there's summers there and so that was one of my lifelong goals and that's basically because of the technical difficulty of climbing that mountain and then just like the odds are pretty low of actually being successful at summiting.

How did that make you feel when you when you did summit?

I knew it was, you know, one of those kind of crazy moments where you're like, I'm here but the weather's changing and we gotta get it out of here.

So it was great.

We celebrated at the top for all about thirty seconds to start descending knowing that we had a long ways to go, you know, probably thirty hours of descending by time was said and done.

And then going into knowing a storm was coming in while we were hopefully gonna beat it.

Right?

So we got out of the most like technical portions of the mountain and got down to what would be more safer terrain before really this the big winds and rain and snow came in on us.

How about in The United States?

Is Longs Peak at the top of of your list or is there

other I certainly climb Longs more than any other peak in in in The United States.

Longs is definitely a very special mountain, the east face which we can see the Diamond Of Longs has some of the hardest technical rock climbing in the world.

And so yeah, it's probably one of some of the routes I've climbed on there, some of my greatest accomplishments also.

That's awesome.

Is there any other, areas in Colorado you like to recreate or climb?

I know Yeah.

It's tough when things become a profession to wanna continue climbing recreationally.

The Black Canyon Gunnison's got some really amazing, like, multi pitch climbing.

I spent a lot of time kinda in the San Juans in the winter ice climbing and mixed climbing.

And then we just recreate my family.

So I have a seven year old and a wife and we spent a lot of time just recreating in the winter skiing.

In the summer we'll go rafting and boating and doing climbing wherever it might be.

So I spent a lot of time kind of in the Moab zone for climbing in kind of the fall and spring in Indian Creek which is part of Bears Ears.

It's also like one of my favorite places to go but that's more like single pitch what's called track climbing where you're placing gear and climbing cracks.

I do want to dive into the various forms of climbing which mentioned before that we wanted to dive into but I mentioned your role earlier as wilderness and climbing supervisor.

What all does that role specifically entail here at Rocky Mountain?

Sure.

So I supervise both permanent and seasonal climbing rangers.

I supervise our basically backcountry wilderness rangers and then I oversee wilderness compliance for the park.

So I'm the chair of the Wilderness Committee.

The park was designated basically 95% wilderness under Wilderness Act in 2009 and as part of that there's some legal obligations that the park has to fulfill and you know so I oversee much of that also.

How has your role changed since that the wilderness designation of this park?

Yeah.

I mean the park as a whole, so functionally anything that's eligible or or proposed wilderness, the park service by agency policy is supposed to treat as wilderness.

And so historically we tried to treat the park even prior to, that designation as wilderness in terms of agency actions and management plans and and work within wilderness if that makes sense.

More so my job has changed drastically as I become a supervisor rather than what was a work lead for the climbing program, a permanent ranger, which where I spent more time in the field climbing super and working with her seasonal staff.

And, you know, it was more of, like, a 80% field versus 20% office versus now I'm more, like, 60% in the office doing things, budgetary stuff, managing personnel.

Overseeing search and rescue operations is more of like an operational side or instant commander versus being like the point of the spear in the field.

But I still get out in patrol also.

In your role, are you teaching people how to climb or recreate?

Are you mostly doing the rescues and search and rescue like you had mentioned?

Yeah.

So we do not like teach people or take people out as in like a guide fashion.

There are, you know, concessionaires in the park that work, mountain guides that take folks out to teach them to climb, get paid to take folks out Longs Peak, things like that.

We are out patrolling for many reasons.

One is to educate and talk to folks, check route conditions both for educating the public about the, you know, conditions and then also route familiarity for rescue purposes and then cleaning up trash and things like that.

Just journal leave no trace ethics.

And then, you know, and then there's the whole other side of the rescue world of someone has an accident in the mountains and then we need to utilize those skill sets to go and extract this person.

You do a whole lot in this park.

Yeah.

Rocky's been historically in the top three, top four for rescue load in the National Park Service.

You know, you have the Grand Canyon and Yosemite and we're generally in the top three or four.

Yep.

You mentioned leave no trace, know, rock climbing and and different types of climbing.

There's a lot of equipment that's used not only that's installed by the park service but also that, you know, recreators bring up with them.

What's the balance of the dual mandate of keeping the wilderness raw versus making it accessible for certain types of climbing?

Yeah.

For sure.

Right.

So, you know, the agency has its own policy.

Park service wide, there's, you know, each park has some leeway in terms of their interpretation and how they manage climbing.

Internal to Rocky, have a wilderness management plan that was written in 2001 that has a climbing management section in it.

In there, it talks about fixed anchors and appropriateness and all sorts of things.

So in general, like, we discourage the placement of fixed anchors unless they're absolutely necessary.

Right?

We're we're trying to leave the wilderness as unimpaired as possible for enjoyment of future generations but realize that sometimes fixed anchors are necessary for the safety of of folks recreating in the wilderness.

And so it's that balance.

Right?

It's it's a struggle but even within the Wilderness Act there is recognition of what is called the public purpose of wilderness, right?

It is the fact that we set these lands aside for folks to recreate, enjoy and really go out and have these experiences that can be transformative for them.

We mentioned Longs Peak which is behind us.

Yep.

What other peaks or mountains are there in the park that folks typically like to recreate on or climb?

Yeah.

You know, so across the park there's a number of alpine features specific to like technical rock climbing.

They're very popular.

Hallett Peak is one of them in the Bear Lake Sound as you go up towards Emerald Lake.

It has one of the 50 classic climbs in North America on that peak so it sees a lot of tension and there's various other routes on that formation.

They're they're popular along with the Sky Pond zone.

There's the Cathedral Spires, one of those being the Petit Grapon which again is also one of those 50 classic climbs and that probably gets even more traffic than any other route in the park.

And there's a a whole list of other like features in the park up in Glacier Gorge.

They're very popular with alpine climbing.

In terms of bouldering which is a whole different style of climbing like Chaos Canyon and all these other areas with big boulders and boulder fields in the alpine have become very popular, and actually world renowned.

And so we have folks that are traveling from all over and within the state to to recreate in these high alpine environments.

Do you have a favorite area that you like to recreate or explore in?

Yeah.

I you know, it depends on what I'm looking to do.

Right?

In the winter skiing, it may be a little bit different but like Glacier Gorge and Upper Glacier Gorge I think is one of the most beautiful places in the park in terms of alpine climbing in the setting.

There's far flung locations in the northern part of the park or down in Wild Basin that if you wanna get away from the beaten path and have I would say more of kind of this primitive experience and opportunity for solitude, those are more of my favorite areas.

You mentioned high alpine climbing, what style and bouldering, what styles of climbing is there?

What all does high alpine climbing entail?

Sure.

So technically, know, it depends.

There's there's a multitude of mediums to climb on, right?

And there's a multitude of styles of climbing.

So what we say is alpine climbing is basically climbing in the mountains, multi pitch, long routes, not a lot of resources available if you have an incident and much more self reliant and generally takes a little bit more of a mastery of multiple skill sets.

There's traditional climbing or trad climbing which is using gear.

Mostly these days it's removable so cams and chalking devices or nuts where you're placing gear in cracks, you're climbing those cracks or features on the on the wall and you're removing that gear.

And then there's sport climbing which is in general fixed anchors which are bolts and like, basically a hardware anchor and the rock where you clip as your fall protection.

We don't have a ton of sport climbing in the park.

In fact, there's not really any that we'd classically say sport climbing.

But Boulder Canyon and some other areas in the zone are very popular with with sport climbing.

Generally those are single pitch.

So you climb, you know, half a rope length or so, maybe a 100 or 150 feet and you come back down to the ground versus like multi pitch climbing which is you're climbing rope length after rope length after rope length till you're the top of a feature.

And then there's bouldering which is some people refer to as pebble wrestling.

Like climbing, you know, large boulders and mostly, you know, in areas with good landings or things like that, but not always.

But generally bouldering has some very hard sequential moves.

Right?

So people are really honing in on kind of like this gymnastic style of climbing, very difficult but for short periods of time or short lengths.

Some people call

it pebble wrestling.

You would never call it that.

Right?

No.

No.

By no means.

I mean, honestly, there are some boulders in this park.

I don't climb.

It's called highball bouldering.

They're 30 feet tall.

Right?

If you were to fall off potentially without a good spotter and good crash pads, you could be seriously injured versus there's other bowlers are like six to eight feet.

Their consequences are pretty low if you come off.

How does climbing change in the park by season with weather?

Sure.

You know, we're on the shoulder season now as you see with the rain and probably snow up high.

We're still kind of in this mix of spring winter to summer and so there's still alpine climbing up high that involves ice climbing.

So on Mount Meeker right now Dreamweaver is a very popular route for folks and it's climbing snow and ice and rock to, you know, fast forward to July, it's mainly rock climbing up high.

And how does hiking when you're up in those mountains, do you encourage folks that aren't necessarily climbing but wanna get some views to wear crampons or Sure.

Bring equipment like that with them?

Yeah.

You know, especially Longs Peak which is a bit of a magnet for folks because it is a fourteener in Colorado.

The the conditions are rapidly changing and they can still rapidly change day to day based on storm activity.

This time of year when, the route we would say is much more in winter conditions, it's got steep forty forty five degree snow slopes on it, high consequence falls if you were to slip and fall.

We do definitely recommend people are bringing crampons and ice hacks.

Not only that, but the experience and knowledge in how to use those pieces of equipment.

Because just because you carry an ice hacks or have crampons if you don't know how to utilize them in an appropriate fashion they aren't gonna do you a lot of good.

How important is it for folks to be familiar with their gear but also just climbing in general before coming to Rocky Mountain?

Is Rocky Mountain a good place for beginners to start climbing or would you recommend that they have experience before coming to this park?

Yeah.

It's a tough one.

Right?

So if you're trying to get into alpine climbing or multi pitch climbing, right, that's not really the where most people start learning to climb, although it's happened.

It's not, you know, the best recommendation.

You know, it's like anything.

You train for things and get better and you develop skill sets and then you pursue harder objectives or maybe higher consequence or more committing objectives, if that makes sense.

So we really suggest people especially if you're getting into technical climbing and want to climb in the park that they kind of develop a really robust base set.

Right?

So they're out maybe single pitch drag climbing and they're progressing and how hard they like difficulties or else they can climb and also their ability to move through train in a safe manner placing good gear.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And we mentioned weather.

How about you mentioned Longs Peak is a fourteener.

How does altitude sickness potentially affect people who are climbing up into high altitudes?

Sure.

Yeah.

You know, we have altitude illness can strike anyone.

It doesn't matter how fit you are.

The biggest issues we see or the biggest red flags would be someone coming from low elevation to high elevation in a quick period of time.

You know, we have altitude illness issues with, you know, technical climbers on lungs but more so we see it on the folks trying to climb the keyhole route in some of the more I guess classic third, fourth class routes.

And that's because folks have this on their agenda as something they want to do which is great but then they fly from Florida and day two they're already climbing the mountain and all of a sudden they start getting feeling those effects of altitude.

Their body hasn't had time to develop the appropriate, you know, changes in order for them to adapt to the altitude.

And so it's a challenge, right?

Like the biggest thing we advise folks is one that you spend time at altitude, lower elevations to slowly acclimate.

It takes about two weeks fully to for your body to adjust and most folks don't have that, right?

So like if you can spend at least a week at elevation doing some other lower elevation hikes prior to attempting something at higher elevation.

You mentioned the keyhole route a couple of times.

Yep.

What is that route?

What does it entail?

And Yeah.

So the keyhole route is probably the most popular route currently to climb the mountain.

In terms of difficulty, it's probably also the lowest.

Once again, that difficulty changes based on conditions and time of year.

So we'll say like mid July, early August, it's snow free, generally ice free.

It's at probably the lowest challenge for most folks in terms of skill sets and and other hazards you might face, if that makes sense.

And so the Keyhole Rider is third, fourth class.

It basically starts in the boulder field which we're looking at at the base of the north face and it goes to the right skyline to a feature called the Keyhole and kind of slowly circumnavigates the mountain corkscrews around until you hit the summit.

How are those summit views at the top?

I mean, it's pretty amazing though.

Ironically, Long's Peak on the summit is basically a very flat it's a unique mountain in the fact it's got basically a football field on top of it.

It's very flat.

We've landed helicopters up there when Wow.

When needed, but it's unique in that aspect.

But you can see into Wyoming.

You can see down into the Park Range.

You can see into Summit County out into the Front Range.

It's it's pretty amazing.

That is amazing.

You've been climbing for a long time

and Yeah.

How has technology changed climbing for better or worse from what you've seen out in the park?

Yeah.

I mean, overall like from when I started climbing to what I'm currently using for climbing, like gears changed drastically in terms of the weight, right, and and like diameters of ropes and all these things, ice tools, ice screws, like it actually makes I think the experience better.

Makes maybe like the weight obviously you're carrying a lot less than maybe some of the folks climbing in the fifties and sixties, seventies, eighties.

Right?

Which helps.

Right?

We can attempt harder and more difficult routes because that you're carrying less weight, you're less fatigued.

But then we have other rises in technology like cell phones and mapping software and Garmin inReach devices and a whole litany of things where I think people are less reliant on some of the traditional skills that came with experience, came with, you know, knowing how to read maps, how to read terrain, how to just navigate from dead reckoning to much more reliant on technology to aid in that.

Just as we're driving now, like I use Google Maps rather than actually have to get a paper maps, figure out where I'm driving.

If it's a new address or a new city, I can rail on my phone.

I can plug in that address.

And just like Google Maps sometimes lead you astray while you're trying to drive to some location, it could definitely lead you astray in the mountains.

And so, you know, while most folks are relying on phones or mapping software or Gaia or whatever it might be, it definitely has its errors and downside.

Would you recommend that folks print off, you know, a topography map or something that they can reference and bring with them in their pack?

I mean, ideally, yes.

You know, the biggest thing is, you know, battery life.

Right?

Something fails, like, what is your backup?

Right?

And, generally, if it's you know, first, I recommend, obviously, if you're using a phone, they have the ability to charge that phone again because it's gonna draw the battery life down.

Right?

Using your GPS and some of the other features on that phone decrease the battery life significantly.

So you have a way of charging that device back up.

Pretty important.

Right?

But then what happens if you drop and break that device, which happens all the time?

What is your backup then?

And really the only backup for that is some sort of analog paper version.

So we all carry maps of the park still.

I've been in the park and I know most of the park very well.

Right?

So most of I'm just dead reckoning in terms of navigating.

But there's still times I pull up the map.

I have triangulated coordinates.

I have to figure out where I'm at and we gotta call a helicopter or something and like that.

Right?

So having that baseline skill set I think is very important still.

Unfortunately, I think, you know, thirty years ago that was kind of common for folks recreating in the backcountry.

It's become less of a common skill set that people carry.

I think that answer leads us really well into search and rescue and and your team's role in that.

Sure.

What is the search and rescue operation look like at this park?

And you'd mentioned you're typically in the top three and having to do rescue missions.

How difficult is it in this type of terrain to to get to people especially if they're doing high alpine climbing?

Yeah.

You know, it depends on where the incense occurs.

So if we have an accident on Longs Peak, we have an accident on Glacier Gorge or the Continental Divide, it's very challenging to get to folks in a timely manner.

Right?

If someone has a stable injury where they can sit and wait, time is less important.

But if someone has had some sort of significant fall or or traumatic injury, like time is of the essence, you've heard of the golden hour.

Right?

So hiking someone just from headquarters where they may be or some other location to some far flung location in the park may take all day.

Alright?

And so we really have to start utilizing other assets to try and get people there.

We use the military for helicopters, we contract helicopters, we use the state house, you know, we use flight for life medevac.

So generally aviation becomes one of the primary assets we'll use for some of these rescues as they're farther and farther away in more severe terrain but then we also have to battle with the weather.

And so like days like today it's really hard to know if we'd be able to fly.

We may be still going in on foot.

Do you or have you rappelled in in these types of rescue missions out of a helicopter?

No.

Generally not rappelling.

Right?

We're going to what it would be the closest spot that we can land a helicopter safely and then walking from that location.

We have a whole list of known like spots that we can land within the park and so we'll usually start working off that knowledge.

There are repel ships within fire like while in fire but it hasn't generally become a thing within search and rescue.

We could have folks inserted with a hoist, you know, on aircraft and down hoisted in.

That's happened before.

I always admire and I don't think talk about enough how, you know, skilled these helicopter pilots are as well navigating this type of landscape and getting the helicopter up and down.

I'm sure you've seen in your days some incredible missions and some incredible pilots that have gotten you in some tough For sure.

We've definitely had some very, you know, stressful rescues where it's like timing is of the essence.

We have a storm cell coming through.

We have a critical patient, and it's all up to, like, doing this in appropriate time for safety margins.

And it's we've had those in a sense where they're basically nail biters.

Right?

Are we gonna get this done?

Are we gonna do it in a safe manner?

Are we gonna get out of out of there prior to this massive storm coming in with high winds and hail and lightning?

So yeah, I you know, the pilots are amazing that we work with.

The skill sets that they've developed over basically a career of flying has set them up for success in the mountains.

I've definitely we've had some pilots come in the park that are uncomfortable with it, which is great, and turned on missions and that's what we would rather have than someone trying to push their comfortability limits and their their skills.

As a supervisor, you not only are on these missions but you're working with a team of people who unfortunately have to see some really hard and traumatic injuries and incidents.

Yeah.

What is that like emotionally to to manage a team after seeing an incident like that and you have a family of, know, how is it managing that balance?

Yeah.

It's a weird balance for me because not only do I have the responsibility of trying to oversee this operation and hopefully save or rescue whoever it is that's hurt, but I also have that responsibility on my shoulders to ensure that the folks that work for me come home safe and sound and that's both physically immensely, right?

And so the the long term exposure to some of these high stress events and traumatic events can take a toll pretty heavily on folks.

And the Park Service I would say as a whole has done a much better job over the last ten years of recognizing the impacts that emergency services and high risk rescues and law enforcement contacts, whatever it might be has on the workforce and has taken more of a proactive approach towards resiliency, availability of counselors, and debriefing and going through a process to hopefully help provide the tools for folks to proactively deal with these types of things, if that makes sense.

Yeah.

And so I definitely have had folks that have worked for me or worked with me that have been drastically impacted from these types of rescues, you know, either fatalities, people dying, or, you know, some very serious injuries of known or unknown people that have taken a toll on them personally.

And so it's my goal at the end of the day, right, that we, I set people up for success, that I take care of these folks that work for me so that when they leave this job at the end of the season or if they leave the Park Service as a whole, that we haven't done more harm to them.

Right?

Hopefully they leave in a better place than when they even started the job.

And as somebody who's, you know, supervising and leading, you know, that mission with your staff, I hope that you're also able to get that same support and Yeah.

Recover from those types of events.

Yeah.

It's you know, I have a cohort of folks that are in similar positions to myself across Park Service that we have a network, right, of communication, you know, because it is kind of a lonely position to be, like, in that that supervisory role.

Right?

It's like there's a lot of things, a lot of stressors from above and below that people don't necessarily understand.

But yeah, my biggest fear at the end of the night is when my employees is gonna either hurt or not come home.

Alright?

And that's what keeps me up at night.

You mentioned enlisting the military in certain operations with aircraft.

What other agencies, local agencies do you enlist to be able to support these types of missions?

Yeah.

So we, you know, the park is situated in several counties.

So we have Grand County, we have Larimer County, which we're currently sitting in, and then Boulder County, which is a little bit south of us.

And so we work very closely with those counties and their volunteer rescue groups and so Larimer County SAR, Rocky Mountain Rescue Group, Grand County SAR to assist us.

And so if we need additional resources, we need additional support or technical expertise, we'll reach out to those folks.

And then we also work with Colorado Search and Rescue which is basically a state entity that helps to oversee and support search and rescue across the state and they've been a huge asset to us along with like I said the National Guard or military in Colorado so the Colorado Army National Guard for aviation assets and other support that they can provide.

How important do you think it is for folks that are coming here who you know are very confident in their abilities regardless of whatever style they're climbing to have a sort of reverence for the wilderness and for the outdoors and the power that Yeah.

The wilderness can provide against somebody?

For sure.

You know, there's there's you know, no matter how technically proficient you are, there's always things that we cannot control.

Right?

There's always the potential for something to go wrong which is part of the thrill I think and and reason that people participate in these types of activities.

Right?

It's a little bit of the unknown.

Right?

Not everything is in under our control.

But the same token, you know, I always ask and I try to do it myself, my staff, especially at work.

Right?

It's like we wanna be a bit more reserved in our decision making than you think is necessary.

Right?

It's like be a little bit more cautious than you think.

You know, if you encounter a section of poor rock quality or things like that, right, en route and it can't be bypassed in a safe manner.

Like, there's there could be, like, severe consequences if you continue on.

And so it's a hard one.

Right?

It's like I ask folks, like, obviously go out and recreate and experience the things you're here to experience, but at the same token, just realize that there are things outside of our own control and if we leave a little bit in the tank, guess you could say, and dial it back just a little bit, it'll help I think long run with people's ability to continue along with these pursuits.

The missions that you have to go on to rescue people, are they humbling to you too to see what nature can cause For and obviously the journey that you have to go on to get to somebody?

Yeah.

You know, we've obviously, we have a ranger incident.

Some of it's just really bad luck.

Some of it is, you know, massive rockfall that no one could predicted.

You know?

And it's just like it's amazing because it could have just been as easily as been myself or someone else in the situation.

It was just bad luck.

Right?

It's like half a mountain just fell off.

It's like those things you can't predict.

There's nothing that anyone could have done to change the outcome besides just not been there at that point in time.

But there was no evidence or anything to suggest that they shouldn't be.

And so that's very humbling.

Right?

There's like it's just as easily could be anyone for those types of incidents versus there's other incidents where it's very clear that there was a chain of poor decisions made and are avoidable.

How much have you learned in this role in your fifteen years here at Rocky Mountain to get to the point where you are now obviously being a supervisor and leading this group?

We talked about technology but you know as you probably know this park now like the back of your hand, have you figured out more proficient and efficient ways to get around the park and I'm sure you have certain areas that you know there's gonna be incidents in pretty regularly.

Yeah.

I mean, we have kind of those high high use areas, also high repeat areas for rescues for sure.

You know, obviously, that infinite knowledge and luckily enough for me, the seasonal staff and permanent staff that I have working for me all are are like very seasoned rangers.

They've been here for many years.

They all have like that intimate knowledge of the park and how to get places in a safe manner and how to effectively and efficiently get places.

But it it plays hugely in how we go about and do our job on a day to day basis, but then also when there's an instant.

Right?

The intimate knowledge of some of this terrain comes down to like there's anchors here.

There's not.

This rock quality in this section is gonna be poor, so how do we get around that?

We may need to use a drill, unfortunately, to place some hard hard anchors to make it safer for us.

Like, that type of knowledge is our safety net, if that makes sense.

And so it's hugely important.

That's fascinating.

So when you're out on the you mentioned earlier sometimes some of the times you go out there is not necessarily on a a search and rescue mission, but it's to understand different routes in the park, get get familiar with the park.

On those types of kind of route finding missions, is that when you're making those decisions to potentially drill?

For sure.

It's like, you know, we'll make those notes.

You know, it's like, hey.

Like, there's poor anchor, poor rock quality.

You know?

And we actually have patrol logs that when folks are coming back at the end of the day, they're filling out, we can pull that information from.

We also debrief once a week about these types of things as a work group together where we're on.

But it's that sharing of knowledge, right, over time.

It's like, yeah, can place pitons here or, you know, it's got good normal protection or removal cams or we have to go down a different method or this train makes the most sense for this type of rescue technique versus another.

And then we also do basically pregame out certain rescues on high use features like the Petit Grappone where we basically have a cheat sheet on how a rescue and what kind of gear needs to be pulled is gonna be done.

Does that make sense?

Oftentimes in these podcasts we talk about how it's really hard to understand a process geologic time and how things are changing over thousands of years.

But in your case, since you know this park so well and you're out doing these route missions, are there certain years where you go out and you notice more erosion in a specific area or different geologic processes that have taken place to make things more challenging to get to?

For sure.

You know it's like obviously on a like a geological timescale it seems like landscape change is a long scale long term process but like we see huge change even in short periods of time.

Very sudden abrupt changes that occur that drastically change access to climbing routes or access to other portions of the park.

Several years ago we had a rather large mass wasting event or a landslide in Upper Chaos Canyon which was pretty impressive, right?

And it was it was a massive amount of debris that moved and so that drastically changed how that environment currently looks today.

And so yes the glacial valleys and all these other things that took thousands and thousands of years to form, we're still having change in a very abrupt time period also.

Taking a step away from maybe climbing or you know high alpine adventures, what about just typical backcountry wilderness adventures?

What are, you know, important messages for folks to know before going out of the backcountry here whether it's leave no trace or or just For

sure.

I mean there's a whole list of things.

Likely we do have a wilderness office here so if folks are doing overnight backcountry permits they come and pick up their permit at their office.

It's actually just down the hill from here and there's a good opportunity for those folks working in that station to give some of that information both safety related, resource protection related in terms of wildlife and how to recreate appropriately in wilderness and then also, just general stuff about bear canisters, tents, when wayfinding.

And so hugely important.

Right?

So we focus a lot on protection of park resources.

Right?

We we focus a lot on protection of the people.

Right?

And we also focus a lot on protection of people from the park and apart from the people.

It's kind of an interesting concept.

But so, yeah, leave no trace is huge for us.

Right?

Talking about how do you appropriately recreate within wilderness and ideally leaving the minimal trace possible.

Right?

Part of that's food storage.

Part of that is staying on trails where it's appropriate and knowing where cross country travel is authorized and allowed.

Part of that is understanding, you know, how not to impact the resources.

You shouldn't be cutting trees down, all that kind of stuff.

And then the other end of it's, yeah, the how to be safe.

Right?

Have the 10 essentials.

Have a plan.

Understand where you're going.

Do some research prior.

But then also, you know, be willing to explore a little bit and have fun.

Do you have fun in the backcountry?

I try to for sure.

I mean, that is you know, our job can be very serious.

Like to say is like some of the best days I've ever had at work have been here on the clock in the backcountry and some of the worst days I've ever had at work anywhere I've worked in my life has been, you know, here at work on the clock doing a body recovery or something like that.

Right?

And then having to deal with the family on scene.

So it's a job that has like many highs and many lows.

You are a very calm person and it seems like a lot of people in search and rescue have this like calm welcoming demeanor and presence.

Have you always been this way or has search and rescue kind of forced you into developing this demeanor?

You know, I think probably it's just yeah.

I predisposed.

It's just my personality.

I think probably the folks that stay around in these types of positions long run can't be very high strung.

It's just it's a high burnout rate otherwise like anything like being a firefighter, police officer, anything involved in emergency services, a nurse, paramedic.

Right?

It's like the folks that are high strung get worked up like it's just a job that will burn you out very quickly.

I was about to ask that.

Do you have any interactions with the, you know, the the wilderness firefighting team here?

Or Sure.

Yeah.

You know, whether it's work or just consultation with each other because you both go through a lot.

Yeah.

So we I you know, so the park has a militia.

They have a core like we have the Alpine Hotshots, we have a module and we have some other like core firefighter folks that that is their job.

And then we have a militia within the park which is folks like myself or others that have like a collateral duty as also to help with Wildland fire.

And so I am also part of the parks fire militia so I will go out and help depending if we're doing stuff in the park or if they get ordered outside of the park we'll send people that are not primary firefighters.

And so we have, yeah, a very close relationship, very similar kind of stressors in the job environment and similar I'd say things that plague people, if that makes sense.

And so yeah, I think we work pretty closely together to hopefully take care of each other and provide each other with resources.

Right?

And so many of the resources are available to myself and my crew in terms of, you know, we have a clinical psychologist on call, we have access to all these other resources, Our wildland fire folks also have the same access to those resources.

Touching back on backcountry experiences, you mentioned the bear canister.

Are there any other, you know, primary concerns with wildlife and visitor interactions in the backcountry?

Yeah.

I would say our number one wildlife visitor interaction unfortunately is people getting too close to wildlife and that's usually on the rogue quarter.

Right?

So like elk, moose, other ungulates, large animals, small animals.

Right?

It's just like not giving them their space.

It's pretty classic.

You'll see anywhere along the main road going to Bear Lake especially during the fall ret where people are getting within five, ten feet of these very large animals that could do some pretty, detrimental harm.

And that's the biggest wildlife interactions we really see.

We do have sporadic issues with bears in the front country and back country getting food rewards so like people who hadn't stored their food appropriately and the bears being able to get into it.

Unfortunately what that does is you know habituates the bears to humans.

They start seeking out food and it creates problems.

We have folks that feed chipmunks and squirrels and birds and those birds and other animals start becoming dependent on humans and start begging and then people get too close and try to feed them and they bite them and it's this whole whirlwind of problems.

But yeah, in general, you know, the wildlife problems in the backcountry I would say are much less than they are like on the road quarters in the front country.

I do have to ask this question when it comes to wildlife.

The Rocky Mountain Bighorn sheep is Mhmm.

An incredible species but it's also amazingly adept to climbing and getting through this rugged terrain.

As a climber yourself, is it impressive for you to watch those animals, know

It is.

Domination.

Yeah.

It's pretty amazing.

Obviously, you know, the population numbers, don't know the exact specifics.

They're not huge.

Right?

So like it's actually pretty rare to see bighorn sheep in the park except for some very specific locations.

But when you do encounter them and then they're like steep mountainous terrain and they're just moving through it effortlessly, it's it's very humbling.

Right?

Then today, and they're kinda doing it carelessly.

You're like, oh, he smokes it.

That animal is just moving through terrain that, you know, we're taking forever to get through.

Is there any other wildlife in the park that you see up in that high terrain that, I don't know, is calming to you when you're up there Sure.

Exploring?

Sure.

So above Tree Lion, we see marmots a fair amount and pikas.

You know.

Long's for whatever reason there's a fairly healthy population of ravens.

We'll see birds of prey.

But yeah, kind of for good or bad, there's a lot of marmots above Tree Lion especially on Long's Peak.

Part of the problem with that is they become a little bit dependent on eating people's stuff.

Oh.

So it's a little weird.

Like, Longs Peak, sell it in the summer.

You on the summer, you stick your hat down.

And if you're not pretty cautious, a marmot will sneak up and start chewing on that hat because they want the salt.

And so I've seen folks that set their hat down and all of sudden they go put it back on and the whole top's been eaten out and it's been within like a five to eight minute period and they never even knew there was a marmint.

What does the training regimen look like for you and your team?

Is there you know, an off season where you guys are are training and preparing together?

Yeah.

Ironically, this is kind of the end of our training season.

We have a few more things going on.

Yesterday, we had a flight training with Flight four Life, which is one of the medevac, basically companies in the state we work with.

But basically my seasonal staff comes on late April, early May and the entire month is booked towards training basically.

So that's like high angle technical rope rescue, EMS which is medical care, helicopter operations, you know winter avalanche rescue, all these types of things where it's like the amount of training up front is huge, right?

Likely I have a you know fully returning staff that are very versed in these skills and so it makes it easy.

I'm not we're not having to teach these things to folks.

It's refresher and building on Oriovans skills if that makes sense.

Is, EMT, is that part of your skill set then too?

It is.

At a minimum, anyone that works in my work group has to have an EMT and then we have several medics that also that can provide ALS support in the backcountry.

Is that is that part of your repertoire?

It is.

So I'm an ALS provider.

There's a couple other some of my crew, and there's a few others across the park.

But at minimum, anyone basically operating at the level of like a primary job for search and rescue has to be an EMT.

What is PSAR and what is, you know, its importance for people to get familiar Sure.

Before they

got here.

So PSAR, we have we love acronyms and we're a government agency.

Right?

So PSAR stands for Preventive Search and Rescue.

Right?

And that's the concept is really grown over time and I would say the Grand Canyon was the first real big part to champion it and develop a lot of, you know, opportunity and programs towards that and do some academic research and studies.

The concept is that hopefully we can reach out to folks prior to them having an incident to set them up for success.

So that overall the number of rescues, number of accidents decline over time, if that makes sense.

And so that can be done through a multitude of ways.

Part of it's upfront education and training with folks so we go out to the public, have, you know, we'll go to REI down in Denver or other types of, you know, outdoor venues and have talks about different various topics.

Lungs Peak is very very popular one for us like how to successfully climb lungs, you know, or winter preparedness with avalanche train and traveling in avalanche train.

And so, you know, the appropriate things you should carry which is 10 essentials, right, but then like how to appropriate use them and and know where you're going or how to set yourself up for success.

And so that's the big concept, right, is how do we upfront provide our visiting public with education and information they need to make good choices and hopefully at the end of the day see a decline in the number of incidents and accidents that we have in the park.

For somebody that might feel they're really familiar with P Star and just recreating, you know, around the park.

This is a extremely popular park.

There are a lot of people doing a lot of different hikes, lot of different trails.

If somebody notices someone maybe not doing what they should or Sure.

There's a concern out in the park, do you encourage folks who are familiar with the rules and the proper way to do things to approach that person?

Yeah.

So what we're we hopefully are doing is creating stewards for the park, right, through the public so that like the messaging that we can provide and experiences we can provide for folks that they take that to heart, right, and then they can continue to spread and share that information so that we have, you know, multiply basically the ability of the park service to reach out to the public.

And as somebody who might be receiving on the other end of that information that they're doing something rock, some

of sometimes it can be a little aggressive from our visitors.

And for good or bad, we have a very large volunteer cadre in this park too.

People that really care about this park and have volunteered their time to help us.

And some of those folks are doing specific PSR, some of them are sitting at the trailheads.

And some of those folks can be a little bit, I would say, over the top with the messaging and that's great.

They care deeply.

But for some folks, they don't appreciate it.

Just leave it at that.

That makes sense.

For, a visitor that's coming, how important or maybe not important since there's just black bears in this park is, you know, carrying around bear spray with you?

Sure.

I I'm not gonna advise people not to.

I will tell you personally, and this is me personally, I I don't carry bear spray.

My staff doesn't carry bear spray.

I think the number of incidents of folks having like negative bear interactions where they would need bear spray is very low.

In fact, I can't remember any off the top of head.

But if that is something that someone feels makes them feel comfortable and safe and they've prepared themselves in an appropriate way and understand how to use that tool, great.

They should carry it.

If they don't understand how to use that tool or what it actually does then there's really no benefit of of carrying it with you.

We see bear bells a lot also.

I'm not a 100% sure on the effectiveness of them but it's if that makes you feel comfortable while you're recreating and traveling within the backcountry and loaders to the park, great.

One thing that I also want to talk about with safety and this is always kind of a I guess a touchy topic for me just because I I always always want people to feel like they have access to the outdoors regardless of what they have.

But how important is proper equipment and attire especially if you're coming here in the colder months or in the shoulder season when the weather is unpredictable?

Yeah.

I mean it's it's it's important all times a year because even mid July August where it's 75 degrees out up high, we can have rapid change in weather.

A thunderstorm comes through and it drops to the forties, we're getting hail, we're getting snow, we're getting sleet.

And if you don't have appropriate clothing and outer layers and gear like you could quickly become hypothermic which depending how far you are out could lead to some pretty negative outcomes.

That makes sense.

And so I'm not gonna tell you what gear you have to buy or what brands or things like that.

Right?

That's really not my purview, but, like, you know, having appropriate clothing for changing conditions is hugely important.

So for us, that's obviously our layers are waterproof rain gear, some sort of insulating layers preferably non cotton, right, because cotton doesn't really do much for you especially once it gets wet.

And so that type of stuff, right?

And ideally we're urging people to have enough supplies with them to spend the night out.

Right?

You don't have to be comfortable but like have enough warm clothing, maybe an emergency shelter, some outer layers and some food and water or ability to treat water so that you could spend an uncomfortable night out unexpectedly.

Crocs are wonderful to put on after a long hike but

Yeah.

Maybe not the the right thing to Yeah.

To put on the treadwear.

Is hugely important.

Right?

And it's not only the footwear you're wearing but what condition it's in.

Right?

And so like if your soles of your shoes are worn off, like not gonna do much for you if there's no tread.

You know, I personally will wear approach shoes with sticky rubber part of the summer when I'm walking on rock slabs and things like that because it gives me better traction.

Ironically, I wear it on the keyhole and I'll be walking up the home stretch and walking down the home stretch while people are on all fours or butt scooting and it has to do with like the footwear I have on versus what they have.

But footwear is usually important.

In the winter, obviously, you want a good warm waterproof boot.

Most likely in this park you want micro spikes because the trails get pecked out pretty quickly and then become basically an ice skating rink so traction is important.

And even this time of year up high in the park there's sections of trail that still would I would say you should have micro spikes on at a minimum.

And then Mike said long speed this time of year, additional like traction crampons and things dedicated towards steep snow climbing are what you should have.

Because of the beautiful and rugged terrain of the geology of this park, are there certain areas of the park that can dictate their own weather?

Like right now where we're sitting at Mhmm.

Could it be calm and Long's Peak be raging Yeah.

With different For sure.

You know, like the Continental Divide in itself is creating its own weather.

Predominantly, the winds are coming from the West.

Most cold fronts we have are coming from the West.

Right?

So as they come over the mountain range, you know, the weather is gonna be significantly different up high than it is gonna be in the town of Estes Park or even Grand Lake.

It may be a sunny bluebird day in Park and you look up and the mountain itself is just obscured in clouds and meticulous and evidence that there's strong winds up high.

How is the cell service in the park?

Is it vital to have a an in reach if you're going out of the backcountry?

There's definitely like, cell service for good or bad has gotten better since I started working here.

Right?

There's a lot of places where you get okay or decent cell service, but there's still a lot of places in this park where it's a dark hole.

There's no no comms, no no cell service.

So having some sort of device emergency beacon something that you can communicate out is is definitely recommended.

It's not required of course but you know with changes in technology some of that's actually been good.

Right?

Now the new phones out there apparently have built in satellite messengers also so that's another option but remember these devices don't work if they get broken or if the batteries die so it's I would say it can be a lifeline but also like there's the ability that this doesn't work.

Two pronged question, importance of notifying somebody where you're going For sure.

Day of the hike and b, when somebody does make the call, and they call 911 and they're out in Longs Peak or somewhere out in the backcountry and they're hurt, what is that process now look like?

How does that call get to you and what does the mobilization look like to get to somebody?

Yeah.

Right?

So if first of all, having like, giving someone your itinerary and plan and where you plan to return is hugely important, especially if you're alone.

Because if you miss that itinerary or check-in point, right, that person can notify us right away rather than us finding your vehicle at the trailhead a day later not knowing what your plan was.

And then if that person can relay in, like, pretty close detail what information we need, where you're planning on going, and timing, that will help us inform our rescue and search response and could be the difference between someone dying and not.

In terms of how a rescue call comes in, you know, if it's a relay from a family member they're usually calling 911 and that transfer their call gets transferred to the park and then we start communicating directly with that person.

The same is generally true with if you, you know, call 911 you have cell service in the park, it'll go to the closest large 911 dispatch center which here is usually Estes Park and then that call immediately gets transferred to our dispatcher in in the park and then park rangers like myself get notified from our dispatch.

And our dispatchers are trained in obtaining all the information that we need to be successful And so they'll go through a series of questions or run a ping on the phone to figure out a GPS location if possible and a bunch of other things to help set us up for success.

Do you guys have like a war room that has the topography and that you're able to map out?

Yeah.

We call it instant command post or I guess you could call it a war room but for sure.

Right?

We have, you know, with technology changes with Google Earth and all these other mapping softwares, Caltopo or Sartopo, like some of that has now become more digital but we still in our Instant Command post have a park wide giant hat printed out with all the information like key locations, things like that that I can quickly just look at and reference and then I can start pulling up stuff on the computer.

And once you understand from your dispatchers what the injury is, is that to kind of determine what equipment you bring to be able to get somebody out?

Mhmm.

Yeah.

For sure.

So depending on location and injury type and weather and a bunch of other things, it dictates basically our response.

As you mentioned, have a very high stress job and you get support, you know, through various means at the park.

But aside from that, how do you recreate and find peace in this park?

When you're when you're seeing, you know, challenging things like that, are you still able to go into the park and recognize its beauty and and spend time here?

Yeah.

You know, I still recreate in the park personally on days off.

In the summer, a little bit less because it's so busy.

And also, I spend a lot more time at work in the summer for Good or Rats.

So on my days off, I may prefer to go somewhere else.

You know, I travel a lot with my family if we're gonna go other places.

We just came back from the San Juan.

We were on a five day river trip.

And so I tried to honestly get out and see other parts of the state that I'm not as familiar with or other parts of the region.

Or sometimes we travel back to Washington to visit my family and and go hiking there, go back to Olympic, which I haven't spent as much time in these days.

And so it's kinda refreshing to go back to some of these old places I grew up in and see in a different light.

But yeah.

You have a seven year old daughter.

Correct?

Do.

Yeah.

Is she gonna be a climber?

She already is.

She's yes.

I mean, I my daughter, for good or bad, has been exposed to so many things I was not exposed to at a young age for her.

And it's like one of those things.

It's like if that's what she wants to do, great.

Right?

We'll expose her to it.

If she's interested, we'll continue to, like, support her.

And if she's not, not great.

But she does, you know, there's a, like, basically a kids climbing club in town that she's part of.

She mountain bikes because she wanted to.

She's in karate, you know, so she likes river rafting.

It'll take her out to other places for her, you know, or sea skis, you know.

So it's like it's a pretty cool childhood for her.

Like, my parents are a little bit different in the fact that, like, know, much more blue collar and these weren't things that they normally did and so I wasn't exposed to it from my family, was more so like other friends or Boy Scouts or things like that.

Does your wife like to recreate outside then?

She does.

Yeah.

I think she predominantly really enjoys trail running but she climbs and she skis and she does all these other things but her like big sport is trail running.

Depending on the season and my motivation for my fitness level sometimes I feel like I'm in decent hiking shape and that's led me to do some indoor climbing But I've realized that my strength doesn't necessarily translate to climbing.

I think it's a different type of Yeah.

Fitness level.

Would you say is you know, a good thing to train to be a good climber?

You know, climbing is it's not all about like pure strength.

Like, a lot of folks would equate climb being great at climbing is being able to do lots of pull ups.

Right?

And that's not necessary.

It's like body movement and balance and positioning that's most important.

And then at some point, depending on the style of climbing, yeah, some of that upper body physical fitness matters more.

But I would say, you know, any activity that is engaging your your core muscle group that's working on balance and hand eye coordination and finesse is like what's gonna set you up for success in climbing.

You know, gymnasts and other, like, martial arts and folks like that with those types of backgrounds that have come into climbing teams seem for whatever reason to like excel at it.

I think there's a lot of skills that translate.

One thing I really enjoy about climbing is it also feels like kind of like a math equation and a puzzle Sure.

When you're up on the wall and you're kind of exerting all your energy, but also your brain is thinking about where my foot goes, where my hands gonna go after that.

Is that something that you enjoy

about climbing?

It kind of equates to kinda a little bit of it like a chess game.

Right?

It's like strategy in terms of how you approach the route, how you're gonna climb it, and how you're gonna be successful.

And it's, you know, it's to the point for me where it's like some of these other things that I'd have running in the back of my mind where I'm climbing like I I'm focused on what I'm doing at hand at that moment and these other things are not like taking up space in my brain.

Once you kind of master a route and how you climb it, can you try different variations of that same route in terms of where you put your hands and your feet for yourself?

Yeah.

You know, that's I think that any routes that way, sport climbing and bouldering, I'd say have even more of that.

Like bouldering, you can change up the sequences.

You can do what's called a sit start so you can start even lower sitting on the ground rather standing.

So, like, you could do variations to routes.

Right?

So there's it's definitely also a bit of like an artistic form for folks.

This has been a really fascinating conversation.

We haven't talked about climbing yet on this podcast and I'm super fascinated by your story and and climbing but I know you're a busy person as we're No worries.

Starting to get into

the summertime, you're gonna become even busier but is there anything else you wanted to mention about the park whether it's encouragement to get out here or or just advice for folks who who do want to climb or go in the backcountry and you know, I I think it's important for people to remember if you're gonna go out and do that, not only are you risking yourself, but you're also risking people like you and your team that are

Yeah.

I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, I do the job I do and the folks that work for me do the job they do because they care, Right?

And so we wanna be there to help folks when it's potentially their worst day.

We also care about the park that we work in and the resources and the opportunities that people have and that we secure and continue to have those opportunities for folks.

Right?

We all start somewhere.

Right?

We all make mistakes.

It is what it is.

And I encourage people to get out, explore the park, recreate because there's huge benefits to doing it.

Right?

But at the same token, like try to educate yourself the best you can in advance, set yourself up for success.

Right?

And make good choices.

Right?

There's there's no reason that you can't turn around.

Right?

You can always come back.

The park will be here.

It's one of those things I've had to learn in my own life.

Right?

Like sometimes mission drive is so overwhelming that's hard.

You get tunnel vision.

It's hard to see that like, hey, maybe things aren't lining up with the way I thought they should or I've blown past my turnaround times.

It's just being cognizant.

Right?

And just be being willing to maybe turn back and realize that I just may have to try again.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

How important is letting go of your ego when you're doing stuff like that?

You know, think it's pretty important.

You know, it's like what they call summit fever.

Right?

It's like not only you have to get to the summit of Long's Peak or any other peak, but you also still have to have the ability in reserve to get down.

And half the battle for most folks and a lot of accidents actually happen on descent rather than this.

Mike, this has been so great getting to know you and I want to personally say thanks for all the work that you do in this park and because of people like yourself people get a record in such an amazing beautiful place and as we look behind us the storm clouds are starting to build pretty good.

For sure.

Yeah.

I'm guessing it's probably snowing up there right now.

Yeah.

Thank you for everything and thank you for spending some time Yeah.

Today to chat through some important topics.

Alright.

Sounds good.

Thanks for checking out this edition of the Safe Travels Podcast.

I really hope you enjoyed it.

Mike is absolutely incredible and I'm so thankful for all the work that he does here at Rocky Mountain National Park.

So if you like this type of content, it'd mean a whole lot to me if you liked, commented, and subscribed.

And until next time, safe travels.