[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to another episode of All To Call M-A-F-S-M-E-O-Hose Tain.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here to talk to you today about couples therapy season 4 episode 17, and to talk this over with me, my co-host for this watch and this season is Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you?

[SPEAKER_01]: I am wonderful.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am leaving tomorrow for Cuala Lumpur.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, that means I didn't do important things like pack, but I did get a manicure [SPEAKER_01]: and eyelash extensions.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, that's half the battle.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, priorities.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's supposed to be so, that's very, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you guys have been listening to this, this is the penultimate episode and there's just one more episode and we're done with the season for a couple of therapy and as always as I ask everyone in the last episodes that I've done, if you have any suggestions for what [SPEAKER_00]: let me know, it can be a reality show, it can be a scripted show, but just tossing you ideas and I will take that into consideration and see what we can do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Patreon.com, slash autocollemy.FS, bonus episodes over there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Secret Lies of Warman, Wajray Union is also over there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Challenge of Union is coming up also.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just to remind that we trade us coming up soon in [SPEAKER_00]: I have one episode with Scally from the PHNs podcast where we're just going through the cast and we share who we chose and who would want to be traders and also have another episode with Jason where we talk about mass cast members that we would like to see on traders.

[SPEAKER_00]: So look up for those coming out as the holidays come soon.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hope everyone is taking a deep breath and not running around like their heads, they could cut off like a chicken because you know, the holidays can be, you know, a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, don't forget to take care of yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: But, um, how are we feeling?

[SPEAKER_00]: As it's, um, wrapping up is this, I got to say Jen, I know I was asking a question, but I feel like the season feels very different from all the other couples therapy seasons that I've watched.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you feel the same way.

[SPEAKER_01]: It does and I don't know if it's a couples thing or if this whole like we broke midway through the season thing or if you know or not just has her group I like you I really do like the cutaways to her group I like her cutaways to Virginia so yeah I don't know I don't know what the difference is but I am it's growing on me as as infuriated as I was the couples.

[SPEAKER_01]: at the beginning and maybe because I know it's coming to a close.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like when you're at high school, you're like, this never ends and then the last like month, you're all, oh, that was so fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it kind of feels like that a little.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel it's different.

[SPEAKER_00]: And not in a good way, like it's not terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not terrible, but I feel like I've enjoyed the previous season's more than I did this one.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm prone to lean towards it's the couples, just the...

[SPEAKER_00]: the the couples are maybe where the issues were leaning towards that it's different and I feel it feels weird to say because I think what I wanted to say was the previous season so couples had more exciting issues and that's terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it is a TV show but I think that's what it is and [SPEAKER_00]: If it's either we're bickering or we're pushing pooling, trying to get people to say stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that affected the watch for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Still a good show, not saying that it was bad, but I think I, like, if anyone was new to the show, I would recommend previous seasons over this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This was ranked last in the season.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, part B, let me put it away.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, you know, and maybe it's because we've seen [SPEAKER_01]: that there's going to be a difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: And for a lot of these couples, I feel like there's no difference.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're not seeing the progress necessarily.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so maybe that's a little frustrating too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess I think we could say that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It didn't feel like, oh, it's time to graduate.

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you ready?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you do I see it?

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, okay, so we start with Nick and Katherine.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think the episodes have ever started with Nick and Katherine, so that was one change.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was weird because the episodes start with Katherine getting ready in their bedroom.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Nick seemingly asleep, but I'm like a camera man, a crew member had to have been in there and I'm like, didn't Nick sleep through that really?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, bro was snoring and that was going to be my question to you is, can you sleep when your partner's getting ready?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm in light sleeper.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't take much just blowing the air and I'm up.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I was like, is he really asleep or because I mean, we've had, you know, have had like, uh, Michael on the show and I asked him about masks.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, listen, when you guys were like, oh, good morning, Wig, you had to have been up before.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, but it looked like Nick was actually sleeping through, but I just, I also didn't even snore.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also didn't understand why they needed that shot of her getting ready and leaving the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: It just [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but maybe I had something to do with like what they were talking about later because you know at least this season it seems like there's a theme and I thought okay maybe this is a hint to whatever the theme of this episode is but I don't know if it got there again I mean I would love to see Allison get ready again and just see her cadre of sparkly arm sweater is just like how many does she have [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, and be real, real curious to see what this has to do with the rest of the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: What did you think the theme was?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it's even after watching it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, uh, I'm not sure because there was one, where they were all kind of playing with their kids at the beginning.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so this kind of ended up being like, oh, this is me and my childhood.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of got it for one couple, but not all of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't see the running theme through everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they go by themes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, it's not something I, you know, it's not something I cut up or cut through the season, but I've just never thought it was about themes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I was curious to see what you thought it might have been.

[SPEAKER_00]: But they get to owner and Catherine shares with owner that it's been a hard month with food for her.

[SPEAKER_00]: She says it's a constant inner dialogue and she doesn't remember life without negative thoughts about herself And she hates it and she wants it to go away and orna asks Nick if he had any thoughts about this and he says You know, I don't know when the dialogue is happening and Orna says that can be said for both of you like you know You don't know what either of you are going through it internally [SPEAKER_00]: And Catherine says yes, and that's because there's a whole other part that she doesn't share and she doesn't talk about and she's been eating crap again.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's saying that it's like she hates her younger self and she's trying to run from it and Nick is agreeing and saying that oh, he relates to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Orna tells her to speak a little bit more about her younger years and she describes her younger years of being, you know, feeling gross, ugly, fat, and just a constant state of longing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she felt like she could never have it because of her looks, at least to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: She says she had a summer where she went through physical violence and she had no friends and had to endure the torture.

[SPEAKER_00]: including running around naked and the girls are throwing things at her and then they made her do a workout routine naked.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I know kids are mean, but what is the purpose of this?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's wild and I was in a sorority and college and I had already heard those horror stories about, you know, oh, they're going to make you stand on a table and they're going to circle your fat and luckily that didn't happen, but I just didn't like, I don't know what anybody [SPEAKER_01]: Get out of this and how we got this far into the season and we're just now now hearing about this is just pretty horrendous, and this is something that From Nick who also kind of had a horrendous thing happen to him.

[SPEAKER_01]: I thought there's to be like, oh, is this the thing that that [SPEAKER_01]: Not buying you, but is this the thing that, I know you don't like it, but like is this the thing that bonds you all?

[SPEAKER_01]: But they seem to have very separate.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it was weird because when Nick was talking about his stuff and his trauma and what happened to him in college, like Catherine was really good about, well, let me break this down and this is why it affects you today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: Nick when he finally did put his hand on her shoulder was like they're there and I kept waiting for him to kind of turn it around to be like, yeah, I understand because this is what happened to me too and luckily he didn't but like this would have been the perfect opportunity for him to shine and for me to see kind of what she sees in him to be like, I have this horrendous thing happened to me but my partner who also had something similarly horrendous.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know if he's capable, but he out of somebody that talks about shame and hiding and being embarrassed by something that really happened like out of anybody in the world that would understand anybody that's in her atmosphere that would understand it it would be him and I just didn't see I was waiting for him to come through and be like yeah babe, I know what you're feeling like and this is what I experience and this is how I can help you and this is what I do to get you through these hard times and he was just [SPEAKER_00]: You take it or that's the thing for him going through all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: He still doesn't know what to do with it for himself.

[SPEAKER_00]: Talk about some of somebody else.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's still like trying to figure out the shame.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think at some point he talks about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if he even needs to feel shame.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's beyond what happens to him.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think more about his relationship with his parents, really.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you ask me, that's what it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, he didn't share that with us, so we don't really know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But Catherine continues and it's like, you know, one time she woke up and she had a girl standing above her with scissors and they were just cutting her hair and they said like she's like, why are you doing this and they're like, because you're ugly and she didn't tell anyone and she didn't tell her mom because, you know, she was traumatized and listen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't go.

[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't experienced anything close to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like no one made me do make it work out routines or cut my hair, things like that, but I did feel for her because I mean, I went through bullying.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was in boarding school when I was in Nigeria and I went through bullying over there.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I moved here, I was also bleeding high school for whole different set of things like being from Africa and other things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like in my mind, I'm being need to think like, well, it's happened twice now in two different parts of the world, it has to be me and you know things like that kind of stay with you that you kind of have to work through and realize like it's not that people are just cruel in the world because you're young and you're just thinking, [SPEAKER_00]: You're not clued into the evilness that the world has, and you just don't understand, because it's something you'd never do.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just wonder, why would somebody else do that to me?

[SPEAKER_00]: He has to be something in me that is bringing that out in people.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I kind of like, you know, could relate, you know, to what she was saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And...

[SPEAKER_00]: Katherine says that this went on and on until she stopped eating, and then she stopped eating, and she lost 40 pounds.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then people started liking her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so unfortunate because the fact the weight of the day of the world of life is that people treat pretty people better.

[SPEAKER_00]: people treat skinnier people better.

[SPEAKER_00]: People talk about how much better they're treated after the lose weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's such a conundrum because how is Katherine not supposed to equate this with a better quality of life?

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know?

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just like even if you want to tell yourself all the affirmations and all the things.

[SPEAKER_00]: The thing that reminds me of people who always say you can't argue data, the thing that is there in her memory bank is that I lost 40 pounds, I got skinny, people stopped trying to cut my hair with his sister.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, tell me, otherwise.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and but then that's the question too and I don't know if maybe Orna asked it and we didn't see it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, all right, if you're having ever struggling with your weight now, who are you trying to get to like you?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, like, what herself?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think she has been like, who, who I'm inclined to say herself because that's what she said in the very beginning is that she is saying that she sees herself as her young herself and the way she sees her young herself is grows ugly fat, constant state of longing and I think she now equates that being skinny to being better.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I have control over that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then everything else, you know, because Nick is a lot of things, but I don't think Nick makes her feel terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think he makes her feel terrible, but I think when she is feeling terrible about herself, I think maybe it's because he's not giving her that so that she's got something to counter these other feelings with.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think, I don't know if it was the last episode or the one before where she talked about.

[SPEAKER_01]: She just needed to cuddling and she needed affection and that's why she's so close to her daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why she buys her daughter stuff is because when she does this stuff with her daughter, her daughter snuggles her and cuddles her into the, and so maybe there's a part of her that's like, okay, well, Nick's not cuddling me and snuggling me.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I lose weight, I'll give me these things that I'm missing.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a good point.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't think about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we added with the fact that with this couple, I still feel like yesterday shared a lot, but there's still a lot that we don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That could be something else because she doesn't want to, you know, topple whatever Nick is because Nick is doing a balance in act right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we don't know where his state of mind is and she just doesn't want to offend him.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he took us till the end to find a couple of Catherine.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I want to tell her that she needs to connect with her rational part and she's like, yeah, I'm trying to, but she says that she's terrified of her daughter going through what she went through because she sees herself in her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Orna Asnick, what is his relationship to that kid?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's Catherine's younger self.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he says he just wants to defend her and his angry at the kids and they totally crush that kid.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wasn't really satisfied with his answer because I'm like, is that really what she's asking?

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was just funny because as I'm saying, like, kind of relate to [SPEAKER_00]: Katherine when he said totally crushed that kid my mom also used to say that when I was in boarding school that you know going there killed my spirit Was it her exact words for that, but don't worry guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: I got it back.

[SPEAKER_01]: You can Yeah, all of that is a thing like you can still Come out on the other side, but it's still as horrible and it's still something that you Went through and and whatever Got you to where you are today.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's still [SPEAKER_01]: horrendous.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you know such a life, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, anyway.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Catherine says she just knows that she and Nick would have been friends.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she says like he was so cute as a little boy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he says so or you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, but you were thin and I'm like, Oh boy.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is why it feels like we did not make progress.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is terrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: And for me, I am very.

[SPEAKER_00]: is a word, I'm very protective of kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess, probably because of me when I went through, but they're just certain things that I don't like, and especially like, you know, all my friends and everyone wants to have daughters or what I'm always like, be kind to yourself, and the things that you say, because they're gonna pick that up.

[SPEAKER_00]: So her saying what you were thin, and like, you're worried about things having to your daughter, this is what will actually affect your daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, spread in the gospel that being thin, [SPEAKER_00]: is what would give her an end into whatever, you know, she thinks is the better life versus building that inner confidence that has people attracted to you or regardless of what your size is is more important.

[SPEAKER_00]: But just her saying what you were saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not ready for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just her saying what you were saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Jen, that killed me because I'm like you are carrying that [SPEAKER_00]: and the things that we passed down to kids or to people are it's again, the nonverbal communication is communication.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's going to see that and then I don't know why in 2025 people don't realize that kids see everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can't outsmart a kid.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're smarter than us.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're boy smart.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're born with the technology in their brains.

[SPEAKER_01]: So especially if you're spending this much time with their kid and I still don't know if she works or not, but she seems to spend a lot of time with her daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she's picking up on this stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when you said that, it reminded me of when I was a kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's look at us sharing our stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: My mom was always always, always on some kind of [SPEAKER_01]: diet or exercise, like when I was a kid, because I'm old, jazz or size was things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she was doing jazz or size.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was doing weight watchers, then it was like, uh, like, neutral system.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was always always always on some kind of diet or doing some kind of exercise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because [SPEAKER_01]: She was a single mom like I got dragged all this stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I went to the Weight Watchers meetings and I was just sitting there listening to all these adults talk about, you know, their challenges with food.

[SPEAKER_01]: And nobody thought, huh, maybe this is not a great place for again, because this is what I learned about food.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is stuff that I still carry with me today about diet and exercise.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not from, I don't think anybody did it on purpose.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just think people were so stuck [SPEAKER_01]: Pain for whatever reason that she didn't think, oh, I'm passing this onto my daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, well, I got to be here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you're with me because I don't have a babysitter and not thinking about how all of that stuff impacts your kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, and I hopefully they're figuring out something else because she seems to be aware that her daughter, she doesn't want this for her daughter, but she doesn't seem to be aware of how her behaviors and actions could potentially affect her daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I don't want to project anything on her, but I worry a little bit about her relationship with her daughter.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't also like when parents make their children the source, the soul source of their happiness and their love and everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're besties.

[SPEAKER_00]: We do it in that.

[SPEAKER_00]: with her daughter like you know I tell her to kind of need the things I'm not getting from that because we see that a lot like maybe if you're like let's say in a loveless relationship or a loveless marriage and you focus all the attention on the children you decide to get all your love and all of that and that's how we get people who have sons and then their sons of their boyfriends because they're not getting it from [SPEAKER_00]: They're partner and you know, just to mention the way they've talked about their daughter and you know I do this up and every time they do their cutaways She's with her daughter like you said.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she's doing something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I want to buy her things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I want to get her things You cannot heal your trauma through your daughter So you're doing double duty.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want your daughter to go through what you went through So you're overcorrecting, but you also want to make your inner child feel better by Making your actual life child better through material things [SPEAKER_00]: It's, I just, these are things that we're not touched on, but owners is the experts, so I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're here for a couple of therapy, but for me, the focus was the child.

[SPEAKER_00]: Once it's a child, the child is just like, number one.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I, yeah, so that that was what I got from that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, go ahead, did you have fun to say?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, I was going to say now that I'm working in a school here abroad and I just have so many kids that I, you know, you can see the dynamics of kids and you can see the kids that are kind of outcasted and the kids that are, um, you know, they're chubby or they're this one girl that I love is taller than everybody else in her class.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so those are the kids that I give extra special love to, like when they walk in the office, I'm like, [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm super dramatic with them because I'm not going to imagine I'm going to change anybody's life, but if they can come to school and have one person be nice to them and it doesn't cost me anything, then I can do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Orna tells Virginia that there's something very similar about their childhood, um, the shadows of traumatic experiences and being scared to bring their full self in.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, to themselves and to us and to their show and why we're doing that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of them as a couple is basically saying, I accept your shadow.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, that was it for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have anything else?

[SPEAKER_01]: I did, I think, where, and I, this is what we talk about.

[SPEAKER_01]: They need an individual therapy where I forget what Catherine said, but Orna's response was, oh, so you're going to submit to the cultural indoctrination.

[SPEAKER_01]: In, I can't say that word, cultural animation.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much, of being thin.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even that, she was like, kind of yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she kind of joked about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, no, let's stay here.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not kind of weigh, let's break in here.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's too where I don't think Nick can solve any of this for her, but for him to be like, babe, whatever size you are, whatever size you think you are, whatever you see, I see something else.

[SPEAKER_01]: to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: She kind of did because when you did say you were cute too, she says, well, you were thin.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, that was that now.

[SPEAKER_01]: She needs some of that now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're graduating.

[SPEAKER_00]: So please figure it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: We'll take a quick break and we'll be right [SPEAKER_00]: I know you think they're cute, but these sweaters drive me nuts.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to buy one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly don't want to add it to my wardrobe, but I think for Alice, because they're so pervasive in her wardrobe, it's just, you know, I guess the purple glasses weren't enough to make her own personality like she had to go further and make her personality with these sweaters, and it just cracks me up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I just I wonder if she tried to do a fashion line and didn't sell and she's stuck with them because she's with all these she or them every single day, but we got a Jimmy Hendrix one and then we had one with the text all you need is love so good for you Allison.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's trying to make fetch happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they go into Orna's office and Rod says they had an argument about the dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: Allison was upset at him that the dog didn't go to the bathroom and she says that it's lazy because he just didn't walk around and he says it's not because she feels that he should walk the dog longer so eventually he goes and Rod says you can't force a dog to go.

[SPEAKER_00]: They bigger and on our steps in, and she's like, okay, this is not productive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's figure out what else could be said.

[SPEAKER_00]: Rogers Pipes in and is like, I just think it's stupid to argue about dog shit when we have a friend that's terminally ill.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was a left time.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know how to handle this because it does feel like this is something that is heavy on them that they have a friend that's terminally ill.

[SPEAKER_00]: But he also felt like Rod was like, I don't want to talk about this anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here's my Trump card and this is that.

[SPEAKER_00]: but I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so delicate that I don't want to sell that and I don't want to diminish also Allison's point of view about her saying that he's lazy because half the time, I keep saying this from the season when we started, she's not annoyed at the actual circumstance.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's not mad that the dog didn't go or he didn't stay, it's the underlying thoughts that she feels that Rod never pushes himself and that he chooses the easy way out.

[SPEAKER_00]: In her mind, all she sees is that he stood there, dog didn't go, oh well, I want to go back inside, let's go, and then that's it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if it were her, she would do a little bit more walk a little bit more like, hey, [SPEAKER_00]: And see if they actually go so that's what's bugging her is that he's choosing the easy route and that and whenever she gets mad It just comes out at any opportunity and it just happened to be the dog [SPEAKER_00]: I can be analysis where I nitpick the little things, but as I get older, you have to learn these things and I'm learning like, you have to let things go.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to meet people where they are.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so much easier to just accept people where they are because...

[SPEAKER_00]: We expect people to accept us, but somehow it's a little harder to accept people you know where they are.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what is not going to change now?

[SPEAKER_00]: Did we marry them in the years?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's not going to accept it and focus on his good traits because he has to have some.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you married him.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you're still with him.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you but if you bothers you so much that oh my god he didn't stay five minutes longer for the dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, please leave.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just you don't have to be unhappy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or maybe that's just not your, that's not his thing, maybe that's your thing and my dad always said to me if you keep expecting people to do things the way you do them you're going to drive yourself nuts and I think this is Allison like there's got to be more than one way to get this dog to poop and [SPEAKER_01]: Rod's got to find his own way, and but you don't give him the time and space because my guess is that if he does take the dog out it go he if he's gone for more than 20 minutes or whatever the time he normally goes she probably is blowing up his phone and so like why is it taking you so long didn't get back you know I'm making assumptions about them that I don't know but I would imagine that that's something where he's like I've tried to do it my way if I stay out longer you get upset so I go for the 20 minutes.

[SPEAKER_01]: and I come back if the dog poops in 20 minutes great if the dog doesn't poop oh well I did my 20 minutes so I don't know that's just my assumption about about them and I think she's got this very strong like why don't you do things this way and it would be so much better if you did this thing than it'll come up later but yeah I think her big thing is she wants him to act a certain way and he's gotten to the point where he knows [SPEAKER_01]: that she wants him to act a certain way and he kind of does it opposite to assert himself rather than say, I don't want to, or I'd rather do it this way.

[SPEAKER_01]: He'd rather just, I'm gonna get yelled at anyway, so let me just not do it her way, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like he's not that he enjoys seeing her upset, but it's just, [SPEAKER_01]: it's less work, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've got a weird idea, make it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, whatever, when Rod says the thing about their friend, the room becomes somber, like they both tear up about this friend and Allison is like he's right, it puts things in perspective.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Rod says like, you know, he doesn't have many close friends, but in recent years, he's lost three close friends and that's a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: Allison is being supportive and she's saying it's okay to cry because Rod is tearing up She means well, but she keeps saying it over and over.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can cry.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can cry You can let it go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let it go cry and I'm like, okay, you're even even in your support You are barking orders at him and I was like, oh my god I wish you would stop but then God for more not because Orner is like, well, he's trying because she says Let it out and she's like, well, he's trying [SPEAKER_00]: And that's like, oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I should shut up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I I didn't realize so she says she kept saying it's okay to feel it's okay to feel honey It's okay to feel it up by note was like Alice in his tender But even in her sweetness.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's aggressive [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so he says it's a lot of loss and again, I'm not trying to relate to this people today, but you know, I've experienced loss like that was so close back to back and it will unmore you like it's like you have an anchor and it doesn't really feel like [SPEAKER_00]: you're floating at sea and you just have nothing to anchor you because it's just like and you know for me it's just made me quite morbid like I think way too much about you know people dying and like oh who's I feel like this is terrible oh I don't know maybe it's not but I feel like every time I see people I see like a barcode above their head kind of like the battery charge just to see like how many years are left like we don't know oh but we don't know yes [SPEAKER_00]: don't do that.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, it's fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not judging.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by how people's brains work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that to me is very fascinating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just very aware of the fact that, oh, like we would be able to see things like, okay, what was it?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think like very simple example.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yesterday, I think they announced that the Oscars are going to be on YouTube now in 2020.

[SPEAKER_00]: And my first thought is like, are we even going to be alive a lot that happened in three years?

[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody could be dead.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: So why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think, yeah, what was it that took so long?

[SPEAKER_00]: Was it, uh?

[SPEAKER_00]: something or something, I can't remember, and I was like, ah, is someone going to be able to see like the end of, we've always game with their own or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I just always relate things to, is someone going to be alive or being morbid and things like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's my point is, sorry, I digress.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my point is like, you lost.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lost does a lot like it just rewires your brain and just like especially when it's back to back and you're very aware that oh my god It's not this abstract.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, it happens to other people type thing It's a thing that's very real and it's that could happen very any time [SPEAKER_00]: is a very scary thing in it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think it also puts not stuff in perspective, but like I think we I've shared with you that I lost my parents with any of each other.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now when I'm the worst person to talk to now about fights you're having with your parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like really this this is what you're arguing with like they could be dead Is this the important thing?

[SPEAKER_01]: They is being right more important than having the time that you've got left and our parents aren't young Your parents aren't young anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is this really how you want to spend the remaining time?

[SPEAKER_01]: So don't come to me [SPEAKER_01]: You know, with stuff with your parents because I'm the least sympathetic now that minor gone, but I'm wondering too, and I don't mean to pull it and I don't think Rod maybe was pulling out a trump card here, I think maybe this is where his brain was at this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, as if he's generally.

[SPEAKER_01]: not kind of tapping into his feelings all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And therapy is a place where he's got to especially tap into his feelings that this is probably where he was like, okay, I can't talk about this dog shit anymore, literally, that like, I'm losing people.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can't, I can't sit here and talk about dog poop.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's fair.

[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, that is fair.

[SPEAKER_00]: Allison says, like, you just makes her think about her dad in the hospital bed every day.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, owner says, is this intense fighting a way that they're trying to avoid intimacy and sad feelings?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, this is why she's the pro because I'm not going to lie to you, Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't get the correlation.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need their butt.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was very excited because I know that you were like, hey, they were supposed to talk about intimacy, like several episodes ago and they dropped it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, oh, they're going to come back full circle.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tains are going to be happy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then they didn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I thought, I also think it was like a different kind of intimacy, because that one was about, and this intimacy was just about being close and talking about feelings and stuff, but I would love to see the beginnings of their relationship, because for the life of me, I cannot fathom why these two got together, but they have to be a reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't, we don't know them, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: We just know them through the lens of Orna's office, but I would love to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, [SPEAKER_00]: what drew each other, what drew them to each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: My guess is the patterns thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that Ross is mom in Allison.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, they always say that thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: The things that you find very cute about your partner now, the things are going to drive you nuts.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then they also say that when you have a kid, everything just kind of exacerbates and becomes like 10 times.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, more intense.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know, over the years, what happened?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because when we do the flashback, when we see the pictures, they look like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I could see her being exciting.

[SPEAKER_01]: If if if Rod is very like even tempered, [SPEAKER_01]: not boring, but just kind of nothing really flaps him kind of guy to get with somebody where everything flaps her.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like having TV at home.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just wind up Allison and see what happens.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me eat my popcorn and watch her go.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I can see how she kind of expresses or she's able to [SPEAKER_01]: is even killed whether he wants to be, or whether he wants to be more expressive, he gets to be with somebody who is expressive, who gets to say the stuff that he wishes he could say.

[SPEAKER_01]: But after years and years and years of that, it's not serving them.

[SPEAKER_01]: The thing that used to serve them, stopped serving them for some reason, and that's what they've got to figure out.

[SPEAKER_01]: In therapy, [SPEAKER_01]: the thing that's made our relationship difficult now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that is the story of life, isn't it?

[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people would get together and eventually is just that same thing is just over the years.

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess we're in tear.

[UNKNOWN]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the one thing I do want to say is just like, I don't think the core of Allison has been the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: So when Rod kind of hints at, [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, she's this.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's that.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's very intense.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's this or what?

[SPEAKER_00]: She has been that person.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like when men do that Like she has been that person from beginning and you thought it was fine Now it's not working for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want to spin it like it's a negative.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's who she was That's my gripe begins like raw like don't comment egg brand you like oh, see look what she's do that was the thing that you like didn't don't spin it Maybe you change.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you should change so [SPEAKER_00]: All right, quick break.

[SPEAKER_00]: We back with, well, Boris and Jessica, who knew?

[SPEAKER_00]: All right, I wanna share this with her peer group.

[SPEAKER_00]: How Boris and Jessica decided to come back for one more session and they asked what she feels.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she didn't get to say what she felt and I really wanted to know what she felt because they said that if it were me, I'll be nervous.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wish we got to hear what we're gonna feel [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't think that she should be nervous, but based on what you guys are saying, it looks like I should be So it would have been interesting to see what she thought.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like that and again, maybe she can't because she's the therapist But I felt like all of her therapist support group friends [SPEAKER_01]: were kind of all of her inner thoughts.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I liked that the black there because it was like, I'd be skeptical on the other.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they all kind of represented different ideas that maybe Orna had, which is why it's great for their pissed to have a group like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But no, that part was super interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like that a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the peers says that they would be worried that Jessica was still trapped and terrified.

[SPEAKER_00]: And another says they think you'll be the same thing, like the last time because it's the last one and it just feels ominous.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, wow, you guys are not very encouraging.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I do want to point out that one of the peers, noir, I'll sedare, that was the lady in the black shirt in the black hair.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was a finalist for the 2017 National Books Critics Circle Award for Portree.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she was shortlisted for the 2017 Forward Prize for Portree, too.

[SPEAKER_00]: She has a nonfiction debut, animal joy.

[SPEAKER_00]: She was a time magazine, most read book of 2022, and a publishes weekly best book of 2022.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the only reason I looked it up was like, I was looking at her and I was like, she's so familiar.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's so familiar, but I couldn't place where I would know her from, so I looked her up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is what I found.

[SPEAKER_01]: Tana Lizabeth, I feel like we just learned so much about you just now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Are you read poetry?

[SPEAKER_01]: How did that just go?

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me look this person up and find out.

[SPEAKER_01]: She looks familiar to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: What world are you living in?

[SPEAKER_01]: Where you're following the realm of swipes of Salt Lake City and [SPEAKER_01]: Therapist poet.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to say that I do not read poetry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I read a lot.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like I would like a book nerd.

[SPEAKER_00]: I go to the national book festival when it's here in DC and stuff, but I do not read poetry.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I still place her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just maybe was a little maybe I've come across her at some point.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But this is, yeah, I'm a all-rounder, baby, I'm just kidding, I'm kidding, but and for the audience I have no idea what Tain's middle name is.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just have given her the name of Elizabeth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my middle name is hard to pronounce.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's my name, you're in middle name, so yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that is what happens when you talk to peers.

[SPEAKER_00]: her talent and wasn't swayed by these people like, oh, I'm going to be scared now because I don't know what I'm expecting.

[SPEAKER_00]: But Boris and Jessica come into the office and they say that they're pretty good that circumstances haven't changed, but they're good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm optimistic because Jessica's actually laughing.

[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't look like she's constipated like how she looked the last times whenever she was in the office.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, before she was sick, she talked about being sick and she felt yeah, she looked like she had a little bit more light like something came back to her although I don't know how because the phrase the circumstances of our lives have not changed but we're good it seems like an oxymoron to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think what I took from that is like, I'm still working.

[SPEAKER_00]: He still doesn't like that we're here, but we figured out how to, yeah, you're right, it's strange.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like that you tried, you're like, I'm gonna have to make this work.

[SPEAKER_00]: But she does share that they had big shifts and a lot of fear, and she felt like if she co-signed his unhappiness, she would have to give up her time, I guess, with the move, and after we negotiate again, and she would lose what she got in New York.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she's saying all this as she's rubbing his arm.

[SPEAKER_00]: He says it was very hard because he was in despair, and he was in a bad place.

[SPEAKER_00]: and he was reaching for comfort and coming here to therapy, exacerbated it, he said they would come in, they would talk, and it hung for days afterwards.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this when we figured out that it's been a few months, since they left or since they started therapy, I couldn't tell because he said a few months ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I wasn't sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm always confused by the timeline in this thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so Boris says that they were not strong enough to handle the blow before things got better because, you know, I if you remember, I think when Orna spoke about, you know, when couples come in for therapy, but Boris says that they were not strong enough to handle the blow.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Orna shares that she didn't understand why the talking wasn't working.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica says that when they don't feel connected, the other ring is very intense.

[SPEAKER_00]: and he alienized her and then she says he has been doing this since they met and she got rightfully so sick of it and I'm like all these things are not good things like I just we're saying this so casually like why are you feeling other in a partnership?

[SPEAKER_01]: But also, why are you recognizing that you've been doing this to Jessica since you've met?

[SPEAKER_01]: But we're good that what those two things don't match to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why either, or why, I guess I know why she's not challenging them because this is their, you know, exit interview.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like, I'm so frustrated by this whole thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know how we got here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we saw that, I think, before they left, she had asked him to leave and what she didn't know was that, well, he's the one saying that.

[SPEAKER_00]: What she knows that for three months, he had been planning a complicated birthday to do for her and he managed to keep that a secret and he wasn't going to give up on this secret.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like he was so miserable, such and despair, but this secret was what he had to hang on to for her birthday, but they got to have the weekend together and a lot of fun things [SPEAKER_00]: like they went to a club and it was relaxed, they've never done that before and they were dancing and Jessica appreciated him meeting her on a childlike plane and it made it easier for her to accept unhappy boars.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think my number one question immediately was like, if I'm so mad at this guy, [SPEAKER_00]: Why am I agreeing like I plan the birthday thing where I told you to leave?

[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, you know, let's share.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oxman, we can with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't understand.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was a disconnect for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, for me, it would be a complete disconnect, but I can see for Jessica being like, he's trying maybe or maybe because that's her thing is you're not seeing me in this relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have space in this relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: maybe this is her going, okay, he's planned this thing for me, although in Jennifer's head, I can see how this whole thing is centered around Boris because he wants to be high five for doing this, but whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I could see Jessica going, I've been asking you to make space for me, and you've done it, I'll give it a shot.

[SPEAKER_00]: It all sounds unhealthy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound pretty dark.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, again, it's a switch that I wouldn't have.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not one that I'd be able to flip that easily.

[SPEAKER_01]: After I've cried myself, I've made myself sick.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've told you what I want, and you basically say it, I don't care.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, if I could make that switch, but it worked for Jessica, and they got to get drunk and go dancing and that solved everything, I guess.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, she says she did a workshop at work and she did like you're supposed to do a story I guess about trauma, but instead of doing her she did bores is and I'm actually surprised he wasn't mad at that so I mean good for them and she thought when he'd be mad that's something why would he be mad?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's about him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He loves it when things are about him.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's true but that when she's at this thing at her job away from him she makes it about him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He loves that [SPEAKER_01]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a very good point.

[SPEAKER_00]: So is this elaborate story where my eyes glazed over a prince a king and something When Boris is beaming and it's just so you're right, Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're absolutely right.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's beaming.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's about him And she I mean, or no, I was patient.

[SPEAKER_00]: She listened to it all and Boris is like he was just so amazing to be understood [SPEAKER_00]: And on our ass, like, you know, for our own curiosity, we've there been some other way to work with them that would have worked.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Jessica says, you know, some way to see their childlike core versus the hardened adults in their couple of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, she's saying that, but it's almost like wanting to hide, [SPEAKER_00]: and not face the reality, you are a heart and adult.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is why you're having problems.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this child like thing is a band-aid.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can do that for a time, but it's not reality.

[SPEAKER_00]: But something I didn't think of that occurred to me right now is Jessica Isotherapis as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know if that played a part in whatever this dynamic that is going on between them.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, two things.

[SPEAKER_01]: So number one, they talked about this whole childhood thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a prince, either it was in the previews or a no, I feel like they talked about it on another episode.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the early ones about him being having to change roles when they move from the Soviet, when his family moved from Soviet Union to the United States.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's not new.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's [SPEAKER_01]: They hadn't talked about before.

[SPEAKER_01]: This whole idea about not tapping into his child like is because he's never presented that.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing about unless he throws a tantrum like a child.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like pay attention to me, give me what I want.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, and then, and then, there's nothing about him that he's presented as child like before.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there was, I don't know, there's no way on Orna would have picked up on that at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think and I think it's made up.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's a genuine thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think because what child goes out dancing and gets drunk.

[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, y'all got lit.

[SPEAKER_01]: I assume they had enhanced fun while they were out and was like, we, that was fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now this is that thing that they're going to hang on to.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, remember that time we had fun once?

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's where I'm saying like this is where I think that her being a therapist [SPEAKER_00]: kind of plays a part.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess she's been a therapist the whole time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, but in this return, this final hurrah or final presentation of where good were great.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then just saying like, oh, doing the child like core because what else would have been the answer?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, well, you said two things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it was the second thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I totally forgot.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to my [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so Orna tells Virginia that they're shockingly better and it has absolutely nothing to do with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: My question is do we believe this or do we think they came back to redeem Boris because that's where I need to.

[SPEAKER_01]: See now I took the opposite based on what you just said that maybe they came back to redeem Jessica because if she's is a therapist and is put out into the world that she can't manage her own relationship like that's not good for her [SPEAKER_01]: professionally.

[SPEAKER_01]: So based on what you said, I thought, oh, maybe they came back to redeem her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can hear Boris telling her that though.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, how do you think this is gonna look?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna look like a monster.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then for your jobs, how are your patience gonna have faith in you?

[SPEAKER_00]: We have to at least go make things a little bit better and come in there because it just felt like there were the sins.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just come in there and like, we're good.

[SPEAKER_00]: We went clubbing.

[SPEAKER_00]: We were a child like, we are great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Second sense is the same, but we are great.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, any last thoughts?

[SPEAKER_01]: I am happy that I get to unclench because when I saw them coming back, I had I clenched up again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was nice at the end of the episode to unclench the theme that this is the last that I've seen in Boris and Jessica.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's funny.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that was it.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was it for the episode and we got to say goodbye to Boris and Jessica early.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I don't know if I'm glad that they came back to wrap things up, but it's at least they could have done to respect.

[SPEAKER_00]: But also, that's also interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: If people sign up for it and then they leave, do they?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is there a contract and they just leave or they obligate it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is that also why they came back who knows?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can see them coming back and just to say I can see the producers, I don't think we can force anybody to go to therapy, but I can see the producers going, well, let's at least wrap this up.

[SPEAKER_01]: So come back in your own time.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, we have X number of weeks we're still recording.

[SPEAKER_01]: Come back when you feel ready to and we'll just wrap this up with a bow.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I can see them saying that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can see that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, this is it for this episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: When this comes out, I hope everybody has a happy happy holiday.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know we can be a hard time for some people, but I hope everyone is able to find like a little pocket of joy wherever and however you can get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But before I sign out, Jen can share a people way they can find you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy Honk, Hanika, Kwanza, whatever you celebrate and you can find me and my husband traveling in Southeast Asia on YouTube and Instagram at jns.adventures.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you guys know where to find me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll to call them AFS and all of the socials.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can drop me a line like we said anything You like us to cover drop your suggestions Please email me if I start reading on Apple podcasts and Spotify and stay subscribe so you don't miss out on any new episodes until next time guys