[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to another episode of All To Call M-A-F-S.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Tane, with me is my co-host, Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Jen.

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing?

[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, Tane.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing really well, actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: We just spent the day doing a three-tank scuba dive here in, [SPEAKER_01]: Puket Thailand and my husband likes to remind me that it's been 112 days since we've been scuba diving.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're both back in our happy place.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Gucci right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is good.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we are back to discuss couples therapy season 4 episode 12 today.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have all the bonus episodes on there since the wife is coming back.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's going to be a bonus episode, 90 day fiancé, 8 may every turn, and we talked about happily ever after.

[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about the other way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had Jason on.

[SPEAKER_00]: We had a recap of the season for 90 day hunt for love.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if any of those catch your fancy, go check it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I should have a documentary coming soon, not sure which one, but, you know, check it out.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there are different tiers.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to listen at free, those pesky pesky ads, there's a tier for that and you can join.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you don't want to join any of that, you can join for free and just have a good time over on the Patreon.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have been doing a lot of watching for the podgen, and I decided, you know, I want to watch stuff for fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And just watched.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm just going to talk about three things that I just watched and I watched hunting wives.

[SPEAKER_00]: I finally finished hunting wives and I don't think I know what I watched but I was there for the right and the right was fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: So with the ride was somebody's lesbian fever dream.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some ride are out there who is like, I really just want to have sex with all of my friends and murder my son's girlfriend.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever that was.

[SPEAKER_01]: I, I, it sounds like boy Larry.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm so sorry.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been out for a minute.

[SPEAKER_01]: If somebody hasn't seen it by now, I just saw it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's based on a book, so I mean they got we need for a season two, so I'm not optimistic because when they follow a book, people do great, once they decide to verify on their own, everything goes down the toilet.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, we're talking, we're talking to you, game of thrones, we're talking to you, true blood, like stick to the original writers.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not sure where this is gonna go.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm happy for Brittany Snow.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to connect it to the reality TV world for anyone who remembers her husband was on, not selling sunset, the spin-off of selling sunset.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, maybe he just selling sunset, obviously.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, selling sunset, OC.

[SPEAKER_00]: Has one was on there in a very, very close friendship with someone, but nothing was going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my introduction to Brittany Snow was, you know, when I moved to America, I was into sub-operates.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it was the CBS one.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was bold and beautiful as the world turns and then guiding light.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think Britney Smith was on guiding light.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that was my introduction to her before she spread out and became.

[SPEAKER_00]: this hunting watch star that she is because I think she's not her project.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think she's staying in booked in busy.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, I don't know what this was supposed to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no rhyme.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's no reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many holes, so many storylines.

[SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes you just go with the rhyme and it was like you said a few dreams.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no way that I like, there was, I wanted so much to, to root for somebody.

[SPEAKER_01]: And everybody that I wanted to root for, turn out to be terrible.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's certainly, it's one of those that you watch where you just want, mindless, you don't want to think about things.

[SPEAKER_01]: You just declare your mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's really great for that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we binge through that, it's probably in like a week.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I would recommend it if you like a gen said, if you're just looking for something [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know what people don't watch it with your parents or kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't around.

[SPEAKER_00]: At any moment, I'll boot my pop up and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So just morning, I watched the Charlie Sheen documentary.

[SPEAKER_00]: Me too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was really good, but it made me so sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I left going like, how the heck is this made so alive?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I wasn't happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: When he said that tiger blue thing, I remember that part of history, but he wasn't kidding, because by all accounts, he should not be alive.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do really strong reactions to it.

[SPEAKER_01]: My first strong reaction was, oh, this is kind of a love letter to his dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know his dad didn't participate in it, but I'm hoping that he saw it, because it truly felt like a love letter to his dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And my second reaction as a child of an addict was like, [SPEAKER_01]: pro.

[SPEAKER_01]: You had so many chances to not be a jerk.

[SPEAKER_01]: You had so many chances to do things.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I guess when you have zero consequences where you're only rewarded, I can see how he could keep doing this and how he had [SPEAKER_01]: the support from Denise like like nobody was going to let this person fail from a place of I care about you and so I yeah I'm wondering if if at some point he failed which it sounded like you know after all the Tiger Blood thing was kind of his low um and sorry to spoiler alert again but it's it was it's really good it's really well done I didn't want to watch it because I [SPEAKER_01]: disliked him for so long after the whole Tiger blood thing, but seeing the full story and seeing him telly tells that pretty well actually.

[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't mentor, he doesn't hide behind anything, he doesn't make excuses for anything.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he did really well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really, really liked it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was surprised.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I like that you said like a love letter to his dad because that is true.

[SPEAKER_00]: The whole thing I was thinking I'm just like Martin she never gave up on this man I mean a little little slight tiny bit armchair expert.

[SPEAKER_00]: I said armchair expert.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the exact shepherd's podcast armchair psychology is just I wonder if his dad felt some kind of guilt because I don't know if I knew that his dad had an addiction as well [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I know they say that it could be genetic and I don't know if he felt like I'm the one who passed it down to him He did mention in his dadless Catholic and sometimes really just people have that This Catholic guilt is literally a term and I wondered if that was the thing and not to take away from the fact that he was not that he was a good dad And he was just there with him every step of the way regardless of what it is regardless of when Charlie took him for granted.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was just always there and [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'm thinking maybe it was a good idea not to be involved in the documentary, because of course, we would want him to be there, but Charlie said, who wants to live all that pain?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, he went through it, but he caused pain for other people in his life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Him and his brother and Emilio decided not to partake of it, but, you know, it seems like they still have like a good relationship, and it was very well done in that I always [SPEAKER_00]: Don't write a memoir if you're not willing to talk about everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think this was, like, if it was a memoir, this was a good memoir.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was not afraid to talk about anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they don't the table.

[SPEAKER_00]: He got all the right people on their Denise.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Denise realizes that, or maybe she does that she was put through the ringer, but she didn't have to go through everything that she went through.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think like I hope she's healing, it sounds dramatic, I guess, for lack of a better word.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is dramatic, but stuff that they went through and the stuff that I'm sure is they continue to go through is really dramatic and, yeah, I think, hopefully she's got some therapy on herself as to why, you know, she did some of the things that she did that, I guess if we were armchair psychologist, we would call an abling, but, yeah, it's wild what they went through, without [SPEAKER_01]: I forget the black guy's name.

[SPEAKER_01]: That guy, so what's your word reaction to him, and your one word reaction to Sean Penn?

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, one word reaction.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think his friend's name was Todd.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or something, my word reaction was like, I'm glad he has him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's not one word.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say, I'm glad he had him, but then he got to a point where I was like, well, where is the line between being a good friend and enabling him?

[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then who was the other person you asked about?

[SPEAKER_01]: Sean Penn.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sean Penn, my one word reaction was like, that's Sean Penn.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, it didn't click until it was then, and I was like, wait, hold on.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that just said that was Sean Penn.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, this is Sean Penn, like, oh, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they said that there's some stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, but anyways, another one I recommend, [SPEAKER_00]: He just goes into the ugly, and I hope he is clean, you know, for his daughters, I noticed that one of his daughters did not show up, also, and they did not address that at all, and I think she also sometimes has a contentious relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the one who had the only fans, when Denise also got one too, and they had their own show, well, things that I didn't watch, but yeah, I hope he's in a good place, and he's been giving a, [SPEAKER_00]: 156 chance at life, and I hope he takes his manager of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The last thing that I watched was on Paramount Plus, home of where couples therapy is, and it's called ThurStrap.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is a show about some guy on TikTok, William White, who apparently was [SPEAKER_00]: giving joy to a lot of middle-aged women during the pandemic.

[SPEAKER_00]: He basically just lip things to old school music and these women were swimming because I'm guessing there's a lack of joy in their lives in relationship and that version of this boy who was like 19 at the time, or 20, any day made fan clubs, they sent him money and they, you know, he lived in Canada.

[SPEAKER_00]: and they went all the way, they organized like a road trip to go visit a allegedly Canada, but then they were trying to find him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, he's 19 and they're like late 40s.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it was to me, I think the most fascinating thing about this to me was connecting it somehow in some way to a no number where [SPEAKER_00]: There's this thing where because we don't know where the line is and par social relationships are in the rise where people think they know someone because they follow them or their fans of them on social media and then the line between inappropriate it's not blurry it's crossed it's crossed and.

[SPEAKER_00]: Things just went out of hand and he struggling with his mental health and that's till today.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know that it was very well done, but I think the meat of the subject matter, which is just like, how are we as a country seeking joy through a 19-year-old and crossing boundaries with him?

[SPEAKER_00]: One lady even said, like, oh, he re-awake in her sexual journey and her side, not because they stepped together, but just because she found someone joy following him and [SPEAKER_00]: looking at him and he's so sexy and so hot and she decided to lose a bunch of weight and go out there and go live life.

[SPEAKER_00]: She needed a 19 year old hot boy to do that for her.

[SPEAKER_01]: So somebody said ornament in there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Orna, help these ladies.

[SPEAKER_00]: There was like I don't have time for this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This has been all me.

[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, so those are the three things I think highlight and is there anything that you've [SPEAKER_01]: Um, thanks to you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm back on the challenge, uh, justice justice for CT.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we're watching the, is it black rabbit that movie or this, that series on Netflix with Jason Bateman and Jude Law?

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, it's, it's a thriller.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's, it keeps you on your toes.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those, uh, I think we've got two more episodes left.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I don't think I've seen Jason Bateman before, like this before.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like his character in Ozark, because we're [SPEAKER_01]: But there's something about his Bradley Cooper long hair.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's been different.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting to see the characters very differently.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to write it down.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Feel free to share what you're watching, sending any questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you look at something to watch, hope you can find something from one of these.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let us dive into these couples this week.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we start with Boris and Jessica, and it started with the montage of them listening to their partners talk, like this is everyone in the cast.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then, our beloved Boris, let's us know that he had a hard time with the last session that they had and he hated the portrait of him that emerged and like, maybe it is you and not a portrait and maybe he should fix up, hmm?

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to ask, okay, how did you see yourself and he was like [SPEAKER_00]: as someone that's possessed by completely unreasonable expectations, who is unsatisfiable and no issues too small to be annoyed by and obsessed with.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sounds aren't hearing.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is you.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is what I do.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is what we call a breakthrough.

[SPEAKER_01]: Congratulations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, except he's thinking like you're thinking of a portrait, I'd like to switch up just a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: That is what you are.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I sound like a monster and it's like, [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, oh, because sometimes you're a very nice person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I just love that she didn't say, oh, no, that's not you at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: You were not a monster.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's just like, no, sometimes you're a nice person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everything else on money, dude.

[SPEAKER_00]: But she didn't say that, but that's a good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think that's what he was looking for.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think he was, and I don't know if traditionally she bowed him out and now because they're at the, they're not at the end of the rope, but they're ready to change the behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: That she's like, I'm not doing this with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: If this is how you see yourself, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think he, he just seems so shocked that nobody was like, oh, poor you, like, oh, that's not how we see you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, you're a great guy because when nobody said anything, [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so good for the ladies for not bailing about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you could literally see it on his face how wait.

[SPEAKER_00]: No one's saying that that's not true.

[SPEAKER_00]: Was this like a woe is me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, that's not how we meant to portray you did that to yourself by the words coming out of your mouth.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he does say that he's a classic cliche immigrant story where he came when he came to this country, the people around him expected him to make something of himself here.

[SPEAKER_00]: But instead he took that expectation and made something toxic out of it by developing impossible standards.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's hard for him to be perceived as unreasonable.

[SPEAKER_00]: And unlike, okay, you can develop impossible standards, but from all we've heard, your impossible standards are reserved for like tomatoes and apples and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: We haven't heard you talk about, [SPEAKER_00]: actual things that are like your impossible standards, like I don't know what he's referring to when he says he has impossible standards.

[SPEAKER_00]: The only examples we've been giving has been walking a mile to get a good tomato.

[SPEAKER_00]: So.

[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe this is the issue.

[SPEAKER_01]: I have a people who go to therapy and you're brought to this place where you recognize, like, hey, this is something about me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you are not, [SPEAKER_01]: wanting to change that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to go to therapy and change everything about you, but you do have to change how your behavior impacts other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: So if you recognize that you're this picky person and you want to save money on apples or whatever to made those eggs, whatever, because this is something that's important to you and that's fine.

[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to change that about yourself, but what you're doing is not working with your partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: So how do you [SPEAKER_01]: be picky, but do it in a way that doesn't take away from Jessica.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the part that is Miss Jessica.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and irony is like, yeah, and the irony is that you have an important, you have impossible standards.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why has done it apply to you having a possible standard to be like the best husband and partner?

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you an order couch.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's why I'm not buying this thing that he's doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: He basically came in here to do a pity party or PR stunt or whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like, let's get to the actual work.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're recognizing things what can we do about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jessica says that, I mean, the thing is that you're scared of being judged and he was trying to explain I was like, okay, maybe there's something to it and honor is like, let me put this in better language.

[SPEAKER_00]: What you're experiencing is an amplified projection of how you're experiencing yourself as someone who's excessive and there's not enough room for you and it seems toxic that it's something for him to figure out and not take it as fact.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he says he sees it as a failure to transform himself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he knows it makes his life so much harder because it misaligns with Jess.

[SPEAKER_00]: That there's nothing wrong with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: She just happens to be with someone who hasn't been able to meet her halfway and he hasn't built the bridge.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know you have strong feelings for Boris, but when he says this, so when he recognizes this, my question was, oh, do you feel bad for him now at this point?

[SPEAKER_01]: in one word, no, because I go back to if you just want to be this version of you that serves you awesome, but that's not how being a couple works.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you've got to be a version that serves both of you and if you're willing to accept that, great, that's why you're in therapy, but what [SPEAKER_01]: his role in the parts of the relationship that don't work.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so until he gets there, and I want him to get there because I want to reform, I want all of, I want good things for all these couples because clearly they've been together for a while.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's love there, they've got kids, like I wrote for love, I want this to work, but I also want the work not to be 100% on Jessica, and I think that's where I have problems of Boris [SPEAKER_01]: from his perspective seems to be just because of you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's so weird.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm torn between, I think this is a breakthrough.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you're recognizing these things about yourself and you are...

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, acknowledging where this means stem from and that you are not being your best self as a partner to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm torn between like, okay, we're making progress.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other part is like, is this genuine?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is this him just like, oh my god, this is going to be on camera.

[SPEAKER_00]: People are going to look at me as whatever because it seems like he was trying to be like, uh, I can't say the word.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark.

[SPEAKER_00]: Marker?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Marker.

[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here's how to be a mother and just being like, you know, I'm so horrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, she has to put up with me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm just what I like.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it real?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or are you just saying it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know it's going to be a camera and you are and she said it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Jessica seems to move.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to note that Jessica doesn't is not like, oh, no, don't feel nothing.

[SPEAKER_00]: She says nothing except the little things that we said.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think she had like three lines this entire episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she does say you are scared of being judged.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's where I'm torn is like, this is great.

[SPEAKER_00]: If he made it right through, but on the flip side, more that's winning, my brain is saying like this was just some kind of, make me look good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's my frustration with him too, is that Jessica's not an unreasonable partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's not somebody that you can't communicate with.

[SPEAKER_01]: effectively.

[SPEAKER_01]: She summited very clear and very concise like you don't have to dig to understand what she means and I get I get the sense that she's got that clarity with him all the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I I think that's why I'm so frustrated with him.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the many reasons is that you're not with somebody that you can't communicate clearly with.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not with somebody that that can't be empathetic.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're not with somebody that doesn't understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: She clearly understands you.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's, and she's a therapist, but she sees you.

[SPEAKER_01]: She sees the parts of you that you find challenging and she's willing to do it with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he, he doesn't give it back, which is, which is frustrating.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: On a tells Virginia that, or was it Virginia, or was that, you know, he uses the term monstrous a lot?

[SPEAKER_00]: And, oh, yes, she was telling Virginia, sorry, that's heard there.

[SPEAKER_00]: that, you know, she notices that he uses the term monstrous a lot and she kind of feels bad for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Jessica did mention something about whenever they're speaking, he does bring like a judgmental error.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like he acts like, you know what I think that condescending thing where it feels like you're asking a question, but you're not asking because you want the answer.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're asking because you think you're trying to make the other person look stupid.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what he does to Jessica and Jessica's like, [SPEAKER_00]: So Virginia says it seems like he needs containment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Orna was like, yeah, he probably does, but I'm not sure if he regards her as a friendly entity or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think basically saying like maybe Boris is feeling out if Orna is the enemy, Orna and when I say enemy, I think it's something you said where people go to therapy and he just want the therapist to tell the other person, you are wrong, I'm great.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's going through that metamorphosis, if in fact, this is working for him, where he's realizing like, oh, I may have the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I am being unreasonable, but it's also like, but is it there deciding with her?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm the bad guy, you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's where they are in that relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that would be scary too as a Boris or any man where your wife is a therapist and you're seeing a therapist.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I think regardless of how things go, I can see why he would feel dinged up on, you know, like maybe they have a secret code that he's he's not at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can see why that would be intimidating.

[SPEAKER_01]: But you chose to be her, sir.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, anything else with them?

[SPEAKER_01]: Nope, I'm Team Jessica, all day.

[SPEAKER_01]: I love her.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, gonna take a quick little break and we'll be back to speak about someone who, I'm sure, doesn't think Warner is a friendly entity and that will be Nick and Katherine.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be right back.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're back.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I don't get this couple.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like what I said last week, [SPEAKER_00]: was completely thrown out the window because I think I said, oh, there's love there and Katherine is just working at walking on excels and all that, but I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, you know, we say Boris is a villain, I don't know, Nick, Nick is something and I'm not sure what that thing is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, speaking of someone like I said, who is not sure if Orner is friend or foe, this is Nick, they are back in the waiting room, and we get Nick too.

[SPEAKER_00]: Nick too is Nick without the hat.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the less cool version.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's telling Catherine that he's so aware of her defensiveness and I'm like, her defensiveness, her?

[SPEAKER_00]: Not you, but that he had to sit in the bathroom, wondering how to ask her to shut the window [SPEAKER_00]: they're going back and forth about I guess how he tells her to shut the window and she doesn't shut the window and he apparently gives her a list of things to do first thing in the morning.

[SPEAKER_00]: These were the snippets I got and you know as they're talking we see on her in her office she's petting her dog as their voices flew into the office and you can tell like there's some kind of not an argument but a bickering that's going on and then she goes over and then she turns over [SPEAKER_00]: and all that's going through my head is like sand through the outlass.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, for the days over our lives, you think?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: All that was going through my mind was thank goodness for Orna's dog because Orna's dog was a true champion of this session.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, but also that was cinema.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love the way they just...

[SPEAKER_00]: Let them bigger, let their voices float through.

[SPEAKER_00]: Let Ornes sound like she could hear anything.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just petting the dog.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then she just dramatically, not dramatically, but she walks over, turns the hourglass, and I'm like, wow, cinema.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, couple of therapy.

[UNKNOWN]: Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so they sit, and then Catherine was like, oh, you know, they got into a fight last night, which they had in front of their kid, and then the kid wakes up in the morning and is telling him to lay off of her.

[SPEAKER_00]: We both don't have children.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is the caveat.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know how it is, but I don't know how you get to the point where you're so mad and you do it casually in front of the kid.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the kid is telling you, lay off mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like that means it has to be that bad to involve the kid.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like kids didn't ask when you've these.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we have our own issues, but why are we?

[SPEAKER_01]: It becomes a burden to them that I'm like, how bad are we in it that we can't stop for a second to think that okay, let's not just do this in front of the kid, you know, yeah and I think Rod and Allison had that maybe last week or the week before where they were fighting in front of their kid and their kid had to play referee and I I don't know if it's what and maybe there's some thing about [SPEAKER_01]: because I think they both only have one kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe there's something about people with one kid feeling like we're a unit, like we're a triad, and so all of us are in this thing together.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the dynamics of that is, but I agree that if you can't kind of recognize, especially in this day and age when we have, [SPEAKER_01]: TikTok and all of these kids, I have social media talking about how terrible their parents are.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you have to be aware that what you're doing, the kids are observing and they're using this as models for their future behavior, for their future relationships.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how, how I would do that, which is why I did not have kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's that where [SPEAKER_00]: They're a triad, I think that's an angle.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the other part is maybe the resentment is just rooted so deep that you're just blind and you just black out and you're like, nope, I gotta get my point out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care if the kid is there or not.

[SPEAKER_00]: So Nick talks about the receptorate incidents and one of the incidents is like she went in a girl strip and he was watching their kid Luna.

[SPEAKER_00]: They had a busy weekend and they were both the kid in him just laying on the couch.

[SPEAKER_00]: She comes back from the girl strip.

[SPEAKER_00]: She drops her bags and he didn't immediately get up.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she cut him off to say, oh, you didn't tell the fool.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, I'm getting there.

[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't immediately get up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she comes back, you know, I was like, don't everyone get up at once.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, is that included in the kid?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is the kid getting stressed too?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was like, I'm like, I'm like, both of them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what?

[SPEAKER_00]: And which makes sense for you to try that thing like maybe all of them like you're citing me daddy I hit you to I'm not a but you know but yeah and you're catching you're catching these hands you're catching your little hands too.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he says like a bother him like how she always says like he doesn't support her and when I was like okay how do you express his hurt and she's like he expressed his hurt the same way he always does I'm not talking to me and he punishes me with silence.

[SPEAKER_00]: which I hate so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a form of, what's the word?

[SPEAKER_00]: Congratulations.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like use your words, dude.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like what are you trying to do?

[SPEAKER_00]: So he's saying that he's hoping that they could have a scenario where [SPEAKER_00]: She puts her bags down and she says, hello, and he doesn't become this performative thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then Catherine rolls her eyes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then we're gonna ask like, is there a part of you that's unique?

[SPEAKER_00]: That has been thinking, hey, you've been away.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've been waiting, why don't you come find me?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, maybe there is and I do think that there's a point here.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't I don't think either of them are right I actually get what he's saying about okay, she comes in and it's like okay You're back and the first thing is that it feels like you criticize him.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're ready Like I'm not doing something wrong at right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not doing anything and it's like a continuous thing of you pointing out all the things that I'm not doing [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but I think it's more of a symptom.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not necessarily that moment or that gesture of not getting up and getting the bags is just more of like a accumulation of all of the things of whatever is going on with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: but then she's waiting for a big gesture.

[SPEAKER_00]: But he's so passive that she gets triggered and annoyed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And on his part, I'm also sure this is where I have a problem with Nick, that he wants all the praise for watching his own child for the weekend.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's just like, I just watch the kid, I didn't do anything you and an aggressive, you are a father.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that was exactly my note and that he's probably one of those guys that uses the term, well, I babysat my kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, you didn't babysat you kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: You watched your kid.

[SPEAKER_01]: But this, it reminds me of the last episode when they were having the argument about the birthday party where I feel like they're both looking for applause from their partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Katherine wanted to pause last week where she threw this grand party for the rotter and was really successful and the daughter was happy and she was waiting for Nick to be like, said you did great, but he didn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: He sat on the couch and he didn't help her queen up and he was looking for a pause at like, oh babe, I paid for this whole thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like all I'm going to figure out how to balance this money and if coming on my business account [SPEAKER_01]: the cards on fire with that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: But he wanted a clause that he paid for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: She wanted a clause that she put it together and they didn't get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it popped up again where he wanted a clause for babysitting his kid and she wanted a clause for just being there.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I think that's what I feel like from the two of them is that they don't feel appreciated by their partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this is how I feel appreciated by you.

[SPEAKER_01]: They just have these dumb arguments about lists and windows, and they're not getting to what it is they need for me, each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think another part of it also is like, Nick just seems so cagey.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because when you put all the pieces together where he's not opening up, he, [SPEAKER_00]: What was it that he just, he's punishing her with silence?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you even deal with that?

[SPEAKER_00]: At some point, you're gonna get so frustrated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then what did she say last week?

[SPEAKER_00]: He's an avoidant.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's not saying anything because also owner says in this episode, like a part of him might be feeling like he's waiting too long to connect and for her to acknowledge all that he does.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I completely understood what she meant but maybe a little bit.

[SPEAKER_00]: And honestly, as they have an opportunity [SPEAKER_00]: and have a totally different experience with each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because the real question is, why are they tip-to-wing around each other?

[SPEAKER_00]: What happened that they got to this point that no one wants to speak?

[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like Nick is dealing with a lot of guests with a loss of his mom and him not wanting to, he's the one who doesn't want to say anything that affects his dad, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is he him?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so there's too much, you got to be open if you're going to come to therapy so that you can connect to that so that you can have the diagnosis and it doesn't seem like he's willing to do that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're both building narratives in their minds and building their resentments alongside whether it's instead of just communicating.

[SPEAKER_00]: with each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the expectations are just getting high in higher.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel and I don't know if you feel this too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like every time they get into therapy, Katherine always like, well, tell her this and don't forget to tell her this and tell her this, you know, in terms of [SPEAKER_01]: that being explanation for Nick's behavior and that goes back to I think what I said last time like some Nick needs his individual therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's got to deal with whatever stuff is going on with himself and his dad and whatever before he can even think about.

[SPEAKER_01]: fixing this relationship with Katherine because to your point with Charlie Sheen, like patterns get passed down in relationships and patterns get passed down in families and there's something being passed down we we think [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's the depression that his mom had and maybe he hasn't, he's trying to fight it, but there's a bunch of stuff going on that has nothing to do with Catherine, but it seems to be he wants to be this very capable.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wants her to recognize that he's this very capable.

[SPEAKER_01]: responsible husband, you know, he's taken care of the money.

[SPEAKER_01]: We see him washing the dog, he's taken care of their daughter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think in his head, he's doing all the things that a husband does, but he's not doing all the things that a partner does.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the disconnect.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's going through the motions.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's not actual like emotions and being present involved.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is like checking the box and just doing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think a little part of me after this episode [SPEAKER_00]: was naked ready for this couple's therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, is he at that point where he's willing to really surrender to the process and then get something out of it?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if they're there for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, all right, click a little break and I'll be right back to talk about Rod and Allison.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we're back.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, Allison doesn't do much talking this week, which is rare for change.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, they come in and Rod says that he feels like Allison has been avoiding him, and she says, yes, and then he says his mom is around from overseas, and he feels like Allison feels like he's babysitting his mom, and he's taking care of her, and like why are you making her a cup of tea, and like really, you can't make a cup of tea.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because he's like, I should be able to be a thief of my law.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why not to be dealing with Allison.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, why can she make her a thief?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh boy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because she's not on her own home, you weirdo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even if, even if, who was not her, like, okay, it's just a cup of tea.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the thing about human interactions.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everything is not about the actual action being taken.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's just so much more.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a loaded thing that's going on with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Rod says that Allison is always talking about communication and communicate and say what you're feeling and yet She has a disappearing act the last week or so the disappearing act is like she goes take the dog for a walk It has gone like three hours During the week, so when he's talking she's trying to interrupt Rod to be like, oh, I mean, you know We heard we did a frantic energy.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, no, but what an owner is like don't [SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, okay, I'm not saying anything, owner's like, yeah, but your body language is.

[SPEAKER_00]: So try to listen without responding with your body.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she's like, okay, sure, like, ah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then, on our diagnosis that, okay, it seems that in her absence, he was filling it with judgment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And in some way, he was missing her being more involved.

[SPEAKER_00]: He agrees, she asks, what do you do about it?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, nothing, I don't want to cause trouble.

[SPEAKER_00]: This isn't another person that's so passive.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you think you're keeping the peace because you're not doing anything, but not doing anything is annoying in itself.

[SPEAKER_00]: You have to do something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, nothing's gonna change because again, in some way, in directly, if you're doing nothing, you're putting all the owners analysis.

[SPEAKER_01]: But not too rods defense because out of the myriad of husbands that are not great dudes like I think he's trying the best as he can because he's definitely with somebody at that.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's damned if he does it, he's damned if he doesn't.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm gonna do the one that's gonna give me the least amount of fire and nothing gives me the least amount of fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna counter that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna counter that with, yes, I'm gonna counter that with sometimes [SPEAKER_00]: the wife is the more outspoken, more, you know, whatever person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Immediately, people cast them as the villain, but if we get that, you know, I would say there's only two people in the relationship know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if this was who she was, he knew who she met, who he married.

[SPEAKER_00]: So don't come fault her for whatever it is that she is now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Even this, you know, frantic energy, this overtalking, this all, the, like, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm pretty sure he knew that and I'm pretty sure at some point and I was like, you know what I like that about her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like that fire thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Don't I don't want him to come now and use that as an excuse because it could be frustrating for her for him doing nothing like is she innocent.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, but is she expecting stuff from her husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and he's not doing anything and I don't care that he comes in.

[SPEAKER_00]: and you're speaking calmly and you're saying this, that doesn't automatically make you the better dude or more in a set one.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, how is he trying?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because his calm, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just not willing to give him, I know compared to the guys, maybe he's not coming up as a villain, but because everyone's journey is different, I just feel like he's showing up and speaking like, he should and his bare minimum, [SPEAKER_00]: be decent.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, then I'm going to counter your counter and say that I wasn't as definitely one of those people and we've seen it with Orna that she will deny.

[SPEAKER_01]: If he says to her, like even with Orna, she was like, hey, you're being confrontational.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, no, I'm not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're doing this, X, Y, and Z, okay, yes, I am.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if Rod has the tools to be able to kind of not confront her, but get her to a place where she recognizes what she's doing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I'm saying because she even said it, and I'm sure if he says to her, look, babe, you're being a little Tersten, you're being a lot of haven't said like you were gone for three hours.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're avoiding me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually she said, you know, she said it In therapy, yes, I am, but I can imagine if he says that at home, she says, oh, no, I just wanted my time and you guys didn't need me, and I was just walking the dog and I enjoyed [SPEAKER_01]: So I think he probably, and this is wild assumptions because we're not in their homes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, based on how I've seen her interact with Orna, I could see how that could happen for them at home.

[SPEAKER_00]: I see, I'm not saying that, and again, I'm not saying that Allison is innocent.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying like, he knew who he married, so he needs to be able to walk through the fire.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not saying anything is not going to solve anything, like you need to put in your big boy pants.

[SPEAKER_00]: or big boy panties or whatever, big boy underwear boxers.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, have that conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if they weren't having therapy, would he have even brought it up?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure he was the second, oh my God.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't wait till therapy so we can talk about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, like you said, he needs to set getting those tools where they have the conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's when he steps in.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she needs to be more clear on what she's feeling and recognizing how she's feeling so she can communicate that too accurately.

[SPEAKER_01]: what is your interpretation of her behavior?

[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think that she truly was just like, oh, I had time to myself, you were hanging out with your mom or do you think some of that was manipulative?

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, I'm getting there.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think like it was just time for a reason.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's also more.

[SPEAKER_00]: I felt I needed more from this interaction, from their session this week.

[SPEAKER_00]: but I don't know, maybe it'll come out later, but it wasn't just time for yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's more to it that we don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: She, okay, when he says, no, he didn't wanna cause trouble, she pipes in and is like, well, it's your mother.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to hang out with her 24, seven since she's here and since she's here, it's an opportune time for me to have more time for myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And why this doesn't ring true to me is that she's not working, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's working.

[SPEAKER_00]: How much more time do you need for yourself?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is the upper chain time that you suddenly need time for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you can do that anyways on a regular day.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know the dynamics of their relationship and her relationship with their mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's a culture thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's an innocent thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: But for me, yes, it's his mother, but she's family.

[SPEAKER_00]: My husband's mom, you know, when she comes into town, we hang out.

[SPEAKER_00]: His siblings, his sisters, we hang out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I'm not saying, oh, your mom is here by you have to deal with that on your own.

[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't make sense to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I'm putting it out like I don't know if it's an innocent thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what their dynamics are.

[SPEAKER_00]: If her mom comes, is he like, well, that's your mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: You take care of her, that's, that's the strange concept to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if that's their culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how they deal with things.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I, that, that makes sense to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm with you and that threw me off too because, you know, I Scott and I don't go to church, but you know what we do when his parents are in town, we go to church.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just one of those things you do.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want your family, especially when they're visiting you.

[SPEAKER_01]: to feel comfortable and even if they're getting on your nerves and you need a break, I could see the balance between like, okay, we're going to have family time, but you're a person and you're going to need just mother-send time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I see giving them time, but I don't see doing it unannounced and just disappearing and doing it without letting [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I'm going to walk to the doctor.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm going to take time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then tell him, oh, I'm going to take some time to myself.

[SPEAKER_00]: So no, it didn't ring true at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think, or not, just decided to focus on Rod.

[SPEAKER_00]: This session and says, it's interesting that when Allison is not filling the space, the first thing in his mind is that he's being criticized or punished, and it sounds like you were missing Allison.

[SPEAKER_00]: So how do you make something happen?

[SPEAKER_00]: One, I think the question is, do you think he was missing her?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or do you think he was just missing the routine of her just chirp chirp chirp in his ear?

[SPEAKER_01]: This is her.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the is frustrated and I as he is by her and it's frustrating as their dynamic and the system that they've developed for each other is frustrating to your point like he knew who she is and he likes having her around and I bet when his mom is around she adds a dynamic [SPEAKER_01]: that makes their family time together feel good and maybe she needs to hear that and maybe he didn't know that she didn't know that and her removing herself without having a discussion about it is the issue really.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay well something surprising that Orna says that I [SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised, and I was like, I don't know if I agree with this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I disagree either.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just cheesy expert is she does say that because he has this feelings like maybe he's being criticized or punished in some way that he could be baiting Allison to create conflict.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he's not left with these feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Allison has the biggest smile when we're in a state that's like, I'm being seen.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what did you think about that?

[SPEAKER_00]: But when she said that, what did you think about that?

[SPEAKER_01]: I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's some truth about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's some truth to, you know, there's a couple reasons why somebody pokes the bear or they either want to see the bear have the reaction or they want the bear's attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: And again, this is their wonky dynamic that they need to shed light on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that was an aha moment for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so she tells him like she wants him to observe his own process, more, the more Allison creates space for him as a sidebar, honestly, I don't think Allison intentionally created space for him Allison gave into her own selfish, I'm just going to have to have for myself or in some way I'm going to show him because again, you know, we don't know what the dynamics are so maybe is like, oh, I'm going to show him like if I'm not around this will happen, I don't know that she was like, you know what I'm just going to let him be.

[SPEAKER_00]: that him had, I don't think that was the case for this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to think about what he does want.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he says, you know what, you have a good point because even when Alzina said, what is it that he wants?

[SPEAKER_00]: He's always like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: But overall, I think Alzina was in her best behavior today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do wish that Orna had asked about his cultural background.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know we detect like a British accent, [SPEAKER_00]: He's origin country, if he's from a different country, if his mom is first generation, we don't know any of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: that I wish would be interesting to find out, you know, what the use culture background is, whether his mom had anything to say about Allison's absence, is that would spurting to say anything because other than that does he care?

[SPEAKER_00]: That she was gone, like, you know, what maybe it is better that she's gone?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or is his mom the one like, oh, why is her wife not here?

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe does he care about perception that he's asking about it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think all that gives context, [SPEAKER_00]: To us, um, about that is that why Allison is like, you know, what your mom is of a bearing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be in the same house with her.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to walk away.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wish that there was also a follow-up from their homework last week, because last week was about intimacy and the things that we're supposed to do, how did that work?

[SPEAKER_00]: The mom coming, did that affect that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Was there some kind of progress?

[SPEAKER_00]: Just so I think I was left wanting.

[SPEAKER_00]: with their signature.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Allison still gives us a sparkly sweater.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'll just sparkly sweaters.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sparkly hoodie.

[SPEAKER_00]: OK, our final couple is Kyle and Mondo.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mondo shares that when they were in Fire Island, that Kyle gave him an ultimatum where it's either they stay open or this relationship ends.

[SPEAKER_00]: And [SPEAKER_00]: I try to fight like, I just want to be nice about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I'm not bored.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like, it's either we shit or get off the pot, where it's like, we're talking about this open relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, it's already happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: Remember last week, I didn't even realize.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought they were discussing, it happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is happening.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know what the goal is talking about this all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Mondo being so fixated, [SPEAKER_00]: On this, I am going to talk about, you know, why he's doing this, but Mondo is saying, if I'm trying hard to make an open relationship work, has Kyle giving any thought to why he has an aversion to monogamy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle is like, hmm, I don't know, a fear of containment, a fear of being with one person only, and Mondo is like, what's wrong with that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what I want to know is, [SPEAKER_00]: This is me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know like his past relationships with I think he said he's only dated deaf people and wonders of first hearing person that he has dated where those relationships open as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: Is that the case?

[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I thought that was the reason why he was wanting why Kyle was wanting openness was because the majority of the men he is seeking additional relationships with are deaf and that he wants to explore that.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I was under the impression that Kyle's past relationships were not with other deaf men.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, no, no, no.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle's past relationships have only been with deaf people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mondo is the first person.

[SPEAKER_00]: who he's been with, who is not deaf.

[SPEAKER_00]: But whether deaf or not, I think, have the past relationship has been open.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's what I want to get.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is this unique to, to, to Mondo?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's an extra layer.

[SPEAKER_00]: If I'm the first person that you with, that you want an open relationship, why me?

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I, I'm stuck on the one sentence that Mondo said was I would do anything to keep you safe and Kyle is not there.

[SPEAKER_01]: So why are we here?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to do everything in my power to keep you safe and you are not reciprocating that for me or you don't feel that for me or you don't want to do that for me, even if that makes you uncomfortable, why are we here and that's my only, that's my frustration with the two of them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're not on the same page and it hurts my hurts my hurt from a lot of so hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle says that he doesn't see how you can love one person and be committed to just that one person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Mondays says he just wants to understand that if monogamy is something he can't do, that he wants to make sure that Kyle knows why.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to me, this is Mondo parenting again, because sometimes people don't want to have a reason to know a reason they're just following their wins.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know what it is, but I would flip it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would ask Mondo, you want to know why monogamy is something he can't do and you want him to know why.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to know why you want to understand so hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Something that doesn't fit with your values or who you are and causes you great anxiety.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is like you are fighting too hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're misaligned on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: He wants an open relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want monogamy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which, why, and this isn't, this isn't, I sleep with ACons and you want the heavy blanket.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is not a quick fix, there's not a band-aid, there's not a workaround for this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a fundamental difference in the core of your value in this relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how you built the fridge there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that Kyle, [SPEAKER_00]: Cal does not show consideration for Mondo because it looks like he actually hits on guys in front of here.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like a discreet thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we go out, you, I want you tonight and then Mondo is there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, maybe guiding him to the Uber to go be with a person.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, Mondo says that he says because for him, the thing he fears the most is that Kyle can become another person when he's intoxicated.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then he sees himself drifting away with a guy or a group of guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, he's falling apart inside.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle is like, yeah, but you know, you have the tendency to have like the worst case scenario and that overprotectiveness feels naggy.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're not my mom or my dad.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just like, out.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think everything about that was just like, you're the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're nagging me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted it over relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: Leave me alone.

[SPEAKER_00]: So and just being told by your partner, like, you're not my mom or my dad and like, gosh, of Kyle says that part of why they came here was for them to learn how to effectively communicate with each other.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Monday starts crying and orders like, okay, let's pause, let's see what's going on here.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mondo says that this is bringing up a lot of stuff and he shares with us that he was in a domestic violence situation with an ex who was on drugs and he did not know that his partner was on drugs.

[SPEAKER_00]: And owner is like, what was the drug of choice and it was crystal meth and he said, one time they went out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he found him naked and he's like this wasn't even like as sexual situation or the other people like he was just naked on there and he got him home and he didn't know like who he was so the partner just turned around and punched him and then just like beating up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was so bad that his eye fell out like a socket like was detached from the socket.

[SPEAKER_00]: His cheekbone was like raw because he was just beating him out and he was just taking it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I hate hate hate to be this graphic, but and I know or and I can't say that, but it is the depiction of his relationship with Kyle, you're just there, he's beating you down, you are taking it to the point where you were raw and you are hurting yourself and you're hurt and the person doesn't just as know and just keeps going, you know, I'm not saying that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle is a monster.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like, and again, I'm not saying like, Mondo has the choice to leave and he is there.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's why I said, like, there's a little sensitivity chip missing with Kyle where it's like, yeah, do what you want to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, technically, [SPEAKER_00]: Mondo agreed to this open relationship, but at least have a little sensitivity to what he's going through.

[SPEAKER_00]: And especially knowing his past, and he's just Mondo's just only known just taking it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Instead of just walking away just there, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that connection that you made is phenomenal.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is why I love talking about this with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I give, I give Kyle no grace.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't know how somebody tells you [SPEAKER_01]: very scary thing that happened to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if he said, I'm hearing you, but I don't care, but my notes for Kyle was, I'm hearing you, but I don't care.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what?

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how mono can communicate any more clearly, but also I don't know how Kyle can communicate anymore clearly.

[SPEAKER_01]: He does not.

[SPEAKER_01]: he want to be in the type of relationship that Mando wants to be in.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't understand what anybody is getting out of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like Mando has his very- He's getting something out of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he gets a dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: He gets somebody to take care of him and to check on him at three o'clock in the morning and to make sure he gets home safe and, you know, to make sure that the functioning parts of his life function, which is what Mando did for his family.

[SPEAKER_01]: again, which is, which is sad.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so sad.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I wish Kyle would break up with Mondo and he said him free, but why would he do that when he's having, you know, he's eating his cake and he's having it too.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think like for everyone, like you always talk about Nick, Mondo needs his own therapy because there's caretaking and this caretaking into the point where you are, you know, burning yourself to keep other [SPEAKER_00]: you are doing way too much.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's doing everything and it's a pattern like he said.

[SPEAKER_00]: You did it for the ex.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want to took him home.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want finding them.

[SPEAKER_00]: These people keep blatantly disrespecting you, your boundaries, whatever it is that you want and you keep conforming, but you come for him so much.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even know what you want.

[SPEAKER_00]: You just know you want a partner.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the crux of the matter is like at some point, you need to take care of taking out of your vocabulary because if not, you care taking your parents, you care taking your siblings, care taking your partner and who's caring for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why would I do that if, you know, you do know this for everybody, you do not even make room for them to take your view and you're coming off as self sufficient.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And let me be clear, I don't hate Kyle, like Kyle.

[SPEAKER_01]: I understand ethical non-monogamy, and those relationships exist, and people can do them very consensually and very happily, but that's not the situation that he's in, and he means to get out of it and be in one that serves him, and this isn't it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the issue is not that he wasn't in an open relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've had couples in the past that had that.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the issue.

[SPEAKER_00]: The issue is that it seems to physically and mentally be causing pain for his partner.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is all he's been obsessing over this.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's just like, like in anguish and is like, why am I basically what he's not saying out loud is why am I not enough?

[SPEAKER_00]: That is basically [SPEAKER_00]: everything and the fact that Kyle is not...

Kyle seems to be...

it's not his intent.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we're going to talk about it when it's talked about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But he seems to be flipping to about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know what else you want from me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I made it clear what I want, which is an open relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: You agree to it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we still talking about this?

[SPEAKER_00]: you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: But did he agree with to it?

[SPEAKER_01]: I've felt like it was an old man.

[SPEAKER_00]: He said, I guess the face.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was so bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he was so bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he said, like, I want you to be free.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to be happy because I'll do anything for you.

[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, that's an agreement.

[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like, if you do this, I'm gone.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he went ahead and he did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, I think he expressed that [SPEAKER_00]: He says that that openness comes with so much unknown, and he just wants Kyle to know that all these things that sometimes he thinks are minor or innocent, they are big for him, and he just wants to understand why not choose monogamy and keep your partner safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Kyle has an answer for him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle is like, this is just what I wanna do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle says, like, yeah, because I wanna ask him what do you think.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Kyle says, I understand the association, and my reaction is like, listen, I have this amazing partner, and I'm trying to be considerate of his past and understand that my decision could cause emotional pain for him, but the, but I ain't given up my openness was silent.

[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't say that, but that was basically just what he said.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, Warner is talking with Virginia, and she tells Virginia that Kyle wants to be a good partner, but there's an immediacy of empathy and connection that's not there.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that she also remembers that he said, like, I did not have the experience of being understood literally, so he spent his formative years in isolation, and being with Mondo, she feels is kind of replicating that.

[SPEAKER_00]: what Mondo is getting from it and Virginia says that maybe he's getting so much from loving Kyle and helping and that's helping him and in a way he's treating himself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't understand that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're the pay people and in my require owner saying yes, I get that but what about you?

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all we've all been asking is what about you?

[SPEAKER_00]: So the episode ends with them in their apartment and Mondo is doing some his fitting clothes on like a mannequin.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, maybe as a hook up for Allison, she was gonna get back to the court forks.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that was the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, I don't know, maybe we should start a thing where we say who was our star player this week.

[SPEAKER_00]: Who do we think was our non-star player?

[SPEAKER_00]: I guess I could bouquet an ashes.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just talking about which couple would have you bouquet?

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I would have, I love crush.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'd toss up between Jessica and Boris and Rodin Allison.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I guess I'm going to go with Rodin Allison.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, [SPEAKER_00]: Let me think positive.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll go with Boris and Jessica.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would give Boris the benefit of the doubt that he actually made his breakthrough because even, no, no, no, no, I either way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think either way to win win, because even if it was a PR thing, for you to come up with the story, you had to walk through it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And these are all things that he said out loud.

[SPEAKER_00]: So to me, saying it out loud, him hearing Jessica not dispute the fact that, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's a win for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: They have meat that they can work on and then move forward with.

[SPEAKER_01]: Who has your ashes?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, stupid, who?

[SPEAKER_01]: Kyle, Kyle and Mono, if I have to put them together, but individually, I give it to Kyle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha ha ha.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think I'm gonna give it to Nick.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I was really just most annoyed when he got to their point [SPEAKER_00]: this whole passive thing, passive aggressive that I don't like it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like stop complaining if you're not doing anything and I know to some extent, um, rod is doing that, but I just listen something about Nick, I think that added layer of [SPEAKER_00]: I took care of her child.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is just us.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is our job in saying it out loud.

[SPEAKER_00]: But, every thing he's giving us is just, I did this and you're not saying this and all that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the whole fighting in front of the kid and all that, I don't.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, he gets my ashes.

[SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We should do a married at first sight who we think is gonna make it a the end.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think I've ever done that because they always stay more than break up.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they always like just stay together.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, that was the episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that maybe progress has been made.

[SPEAKER_00]: If anything, I hope I don't want to wish that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mundo chooses, sorry, Kyle chooses monogamy, because that's him not being true to himself, like they should both be happy, they shouldn't try to force happiness with each other, will one person gives up something.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if that's what, because on the flip side where Mundo has his trauma, right, where all that, you know, happened to him, [SPEAKER_00]: Kyle also has this trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Remember his mother refused to admit that he was deaf, and he had to come to a place where he didn't really fit in and he didn't have that.

[SPEAKER_00]: If this is his way, whether it makes sense to us or not, and this how he feels like he needs to be free, please buy all means.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think he should.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if it's hurting somebody, when you have a choice to not hurt the person, then they could be free, go be free.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you change, if it changes gears online, you will single, pick back up where you left off, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just want to happen as for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just wonder, just always every bee physically looks like he's in pain, you know, and it's just tough to watch.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all of these couples who just go scuba diving because you have to work together, you've got to do communication under water, you've got to keep communication on the boat, you're having a shared experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be my prescription for everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Go scuba diving.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then he comes back on land and he still wants to be with other people, so you can do that with other people, and you know, and I don't know, wouldn't you be difficult for Kyle to scuba dive?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, everything, he lip reads and once you're underwater, everything's all hand signals anywhere.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, can you share with people where they can find you?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you can find us having our adventures right now.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're in Thailand at jns.adventures on Instagram and YouTube.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know what to find me?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll also call M.A.

[SPEAKER_00]: Feson all of the socials.

[SPEAKER_00]: Please give me a five star rating wherever you listen to podcasts, specifically on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[SPEAKER_00]: and stay subscribed so you do not miss out on any new episodes, got a bunch of new episodes coming out that are fun.

[SPEAKER_00]: So check it out and until next time, bye guys.