Man just or not good it roning meetings, they're not do just we when be haveing these conversations if they really we're.

Steam Roggelberg forscht zum Thema Meetings.

Im Podcast sprechen wir über den Sinn und Unsinn von Meetings, warum Meetings das größte ungeschützte Investment von Unternehmen sind, Steam, all Kind to the Show.

Thank you so not it's great to the her.

I mean you did a lot of research on the topic of meetings and in your book you row the sendance and heat your saying because i'm always hearing audio books and and really struck me that you said that is no other single investment of this magnitude that is streeted and satcher clumby männer from organisations.

Thing that on the one hand you know that you budgets and you know procedure for every little peace of money.

That's going out, but on the other hand meetings, i kind of well at throw in a couple of millions what i what i you fall sound up.

Ja, you're absolute correct, it's it's bassinating meetings.

Cos organisations way one money, then they're entire it, they're entire technology budget right when you think about meetings is being time by savary and how meetings people have this work process.

This communication technology is incredible cosly, and we're not if in considering upertity cars right, we're people to be doing something els that good help the organisation and was so fastnating to me is.

You can the matgion and an organisation that this and have some one on the leadership team kind of own technology right.

We ow is have directors of it.

We have she's you know technology officer is what have you but what a coms to meetings there's no one on the leadership team that razers the hand as i own this what this process and it is waymore expensive, then you're entire technology investment.

It's every like like cats to just runs.

We you're garden, they they're just they happen to be there we they we don't have to we don't have to treed on to feet them it's dark.

We accept the we accept bad meatings is the cast of doing business and this is so problematic because we have data can out in germany by the i that link.

Organisations that have a factive meetings to return on investment for the or for all organisation, so when meetings or don't well, it's compad of it vanage.

So, the money is not per see it throne out of for window.

It's more like i mean it still i mean i like the idea of treating it as an investment xacly, but if you don't manage it, it's like of throne the money out of the window.

Xacly but.

And I'll you'll treat it in as an investment.

Tryed xacly i think that's a nose one's you think about meetings as an investment now this a lot more empit is for the leaders to do go job right.

And not just over invite to meetings, not just have a really long meetings, so one's we think of it we elevated to investment i think that crate some additional accountability.

Ja, so it's.

Also it's not the solution definity not to just.

Stop pleating and don't invest anymore.

That's a little bit like we technology you know you can't.

As a rally.

That's stop this nonsens.

We don't need that that's stop you the expenses that also.

Exactly we a world without meetings really is muchmore problematic then are curred world right.

We need meetings, meetings are central for communication claporation consensus decision makeing coord nation.

So what we need is not to a liminate meetings all that we can a liminate of you, but we really need to do was a liminate was to time in meetings and we can do that that's for the signs really kicks and and you know was it's particularly important to reckinise that meetings or or organisationed democracy takes play that is the lokation for organisationed democracy and so there.

Really unintendate consequence is if we just start all liminating these things.

Ok and what us to research tell us about how should we run meetings that if we need them?

There are me that's a very they clashion right, there's so much you this is wivered multible box, so I'll here of you little highlights for you and to just that the stage.

So basly you know what we fend was the best meeting leaders have something in comen and what they have an comen is a steward, Steward, ship mindset, steward, ship mindset, and this is the idea that you don't one of ways out of people's time you reckonies that you're roll is so important in onering peoples time, and when you have that mindset you be com much war international.

And with your meeting choices and interesting leaders at like stewards, all the time when the meeting is with a key boss or a key investor or a key customer because we don't just people to say was a waste but typicly we we meet with or jo rex or peers, we just don't ten to act was stewardship so some of the key choices that we.

You know make it's up thisly keeping the meetings as a lean as possible as meetingsize and crises, so das problems and ineffective this and so we have to be much more careful with the calling of you know with atendies you know we want to make be deliver and how wong the meetings to take a special.

If in something call parkinson's law and parkinson's laws you i get that work expansed to the every time is a lot of to it's of a meeting as sketral for sexy mit.

It's going to take sixty minutes, and but we can us is tor van it.

I we can skagal meetings for three five minutes, five minutes and we will'll get it done so this a lot of there's a practice and then i'll share one that i think you mic like i've share this bevor and so I'm my keynotes in Germany and i when of a really well, so will you that we know what do like this and not so basicly one we.

Construct a gendas from meetings or typical organize as a set of topics to be disgust and what i want to as meeting leaders to do is to organize there a gendas as that of questions to be ensert and by frame your gendas as questions to be ensert now you have to really stop and think about whire have in the meeting right, it's the ensure these questions you have a better sets to comed to the meeting the real of and to the questions you know the meeting is been sucessful the questions of in ensert.

And by frame your gender item, just questions you can't in engaging challenge that dras in your tenties and finely.

If you just can't think of andy questions it like the means you're don't need a meeting.

You're just need one that other people listen to my pretty and falls that but that's my be a very bad reason for haveing a meeting on the i'm.

Do you also have i mean obviously that is always room or things we could do better?

Maybe in the Future, no you know Menschen i think three the meeting stewardship thinking differently about the agenda also framing questions, instant of agenda items and also setting clear time boxes what on the on the allahand maybe super super stupid things we could just stop doing.

And you're for we start improving things my we just stop stup it things doing, but.

Not the i just the things to stop doing or just meeting at the sake of meeting.

So we do have a lot of this habets that just hapet we have this, we a curing meetings and you at we don't really no, we don't.

Ask with the we're going to you doing i'm so like it's some of are we a curing meetings and just say hey as is adding sertietic value and who really has to be there and maybey sernantpeople.com one week out of people.com the out of the week so that's one action as like it is be a curing meetings you know a's a curing meeting time there's absolut no reason right we one are meetings to default.

To being an our or evan thirty minutes, just because that's what google calentar tell us to do so we can start dialing all of or meeting times back to five or ten minutes so that people have the apportity to take a bio break so that will be a second thing a third thing that we can do a musicly is being or thotful and how we sketchal leastings so the best practice is actually to kind of cluster meetings together a i'm that'ally acuring breaks.

So that means you it, one is sketual meetings that's a in the morning, that's then gets the person or free time in the aptonine per deepwork or a vice person or plan the meetings around wunch times that you have a block of deepwork time in the morning and the aptonine.

So, the best practice is the cluster them together bud, we also no that when the cluster together the appears to be the need to have at leaf, two teen minutes and betweenows my meetings so that people can't have recovery, they can't perpare for the next meeting and they can go the bathrom so we have we have this good information that we that how this to be skedal and clustert and AI privites of easy way of kind of.

Intergrading with calendar systems and organisations so also be some quickways and then i probed the forsway all say and I'll stop is haveing some clirty on not meeting just to communicate information.

Right, so if you don't really need engagement with the content and you don't need a meeding right, so we know for example that people love listing to pocast like yours and they can do this at there convenience, so if a organisation just has a lot of information to the sevenate one recorders of and send the link to employs and that them lesson on there time.

One.

And so that will be another really easy intervention.

To get things a lilabet better.

And are not just mansioned research, it's ins requite new what i when i got it right to research on the a organisational on the performance improvement of a company if meetings all that's a meeting of all meeting culture is really done well do you can't a laborate on?

That ja, ja.

To meetings they truly matter to employ experience and when an employ is in the bad meeting have to bad meeting have to bad beeting we actually find there more likely to leave the organisation and there also last engage with the job of all of what sign the meetings.

The job so meetings are this activity that you know has a perfound affect on or experience of the organisation and are managers.

Right so we have hered the expression that people don't be bad jobs and we've bad bosses well meetings or the stage of leadership and so of the person's constanty experience and bad meetings.

Will there also they're just generaning all this that me's negative feelings and that takes away from they're productivity and the sametime is meetings or not optimal.

We takes away from teambrotactivity.

So you can start to see how the cost of bad meeting starts to acumulate and alternative league raly organisation success, but the need think is the apposit also was true so when iploice have much more constructive meetings meetings that are working they're moreing gaged like that more commided to the organisation so and your abel to retailing your top ten.

So what we really oft and think about meetings is bean places of drain the ashlick be places of gane when don't well.

Is that more also more on the data beyond the empery experience?

The interms of linkin it to financial indicators of the Organisation.

Financial indicators innovation.

Ja, definitiv.

Do it's like no fusure there is you know when meetings are more affective people crate beta decisions, they're more creative and innovative, so definity there's you know we all know what a good meeting and see you like and do the promis that the ratio of good meetings to bad meetings is not where we need it.

But we will have this experience is right.

We're you have this medially well that was grate we really we that'm good work and we're all commined to it that's the power of the meeting.

And when you just look to the sharing crise of the number of meetings and by the number of rizzly also the time people's benting meetings and by time also the magnitu of the investment you.

I think we look to data from that.

I think thas an increase in meetings from the seventies to now of a proximily five to seven hundred Prozent.

Why do you think is that that we seeed sergeant increase in in meetings all you set the meetings are sign of democratication coordination, why do you think is that that meetings all such so ave rosen in suchal in suchal Männer?

To them of meetings, the.

Generaly a few explonations first is one of goodness in that or managers and organisations one of be is inclusive is possible, so they have meetings to inklusive people, so that's that's the positive reason that's the passive intention ok, then there's a more nutral one and the more nutral one is.

It's just so easy to sketral meetings.

It's so easy tick just grap so we's Kind and take there time away so the eas of sketreling as that to inquised meetings or i've to have a positive reason, a nutral reason and out the negative reason, the negative reason is that in this was particularly real of and start in the pandemic.

That when employes we're working remotely and mensch is word seing them as much managers kind of heading city like one is the roll ding a manager if you're not seing your people and so of big respons to the pandemic was lots in lots of checked meetings and just cosly seing with your employes are driving outcomes.

So that was that third force is really about managerial in security right, they a meeting monerting monerting because and some regards then not trusting there people to do the work, so do three forces have absolute incristed meeting activity.

Have a forth reason and I'll equer is what you what you think about that one that.

By the way organisations, i designed i always designed and departments so you think in a very cuttered way about organisations.

You always try to slice work into functions and with increasing digication and also this forces organisations to be in a more collaborative mode because you can not just.

Cut all the things you have to deside we really need to allein horizontaly with incrises the neediners for for collaboration making decisions together.

What do you think about that one?

I be that's very reasonable, it's very reasonable.

Ja i me I think as we reckoners that krabble.

Organisational problems are at hairently complex and intertopartmental then the to keat bringing people together to result them.

That's ban is anhanceed so ja it absolut you can lead tomor meetings there's so my to be forses that lead tomor meetings and they generelly on they're not from a bad plays you know they're not because so was like oh ja, one ofs.

I just hate my employers, i'm want to plot them and meetings like it's not that and me and it's just that we're not privliging in quality of meetings if people if leaders do a really good job and meetings, for example, like fatigue and drane does and happen so the fatigue and drane is tipicly do to bad meetings just not meetings in in of the selbst so.

We just one managers and organisations to start taking this investment.

We're seriesly and driving a good healthy meeting, echo system or culture and so we think about we know we want to increase managerial skills because managers or not good it roning meetings.

They're not big as we when be haveing these conversations if they really where so we all are the problem you have as has a responsibility to do better with are meetings, but the organisation has responsibilities to i so for example, there we shoulding in to the engation surface contaner i'm meetings so that they can.

Private Feedback to the managers, the how means are going there's just have so on the leadership team razer Hand as II on meetings.

This is a critical work proses i'm going to keep in i on and makes or it's working fors you know we thinking about the tipes of conversations we want manages to have with her people about meetings you know altimently to sove meetings we have to have to have to have a meeting about meetings.

And meeting about meeting thrary go.

How can we not so how can we not if we know that this is a youj problem and people or investing so what time and it that's talk about it right so just take this negon of energy and see if we can make meetings work for us and we need to do this with are people we need to work to get there to a stabish new norms around went to have meanings and when not new norms around.

How do you who can be invite it of there is me is and who some new norms about how do you keep people in the loop so they don't feel marginalist and so there's this conversations can also elevate the meeting culture and echo system.

Of it's just the conversation about in a manager and emplory to speaking about MIA lot to maybe just the client and meeting when i don't see that i kind of contrib you danising.

I just fall the study, we're what i think only last and twenty percent of people have evers boken with a manager about this.

You know very natural tenen see me be just to die kleine meeting it's super easy you're in white me, but you know that's it teams to be tabu that i just take ok II die client because i kind of see you good reason to join this this you.

Know right and that's a good example of why we need to have.

A team conversation about this because we need to make it normative for some to the client and the only way you can make it normative is by haveing the team talk about it so that everyone kind of as the same mental martal as all the was you can the mensch and that employs can start to have all feelings for some of the employs her or castely to clining meetings, but if we was abbused is norms and everyone's kind of acting on it.

Then you don't have the all feelings and the card sequence is is then or meeting with just.

Grey Oh and maybe you take it one step ferther saying that the default is declining a meeting and that you as a one a oneing to have someone in the meeting i should find very good reasons II wanna have you in my meeting and then if the declining a meeting becams the default is turns around the hole.

Dynamic and and and maybe also bad feelings of people declaring meeting.

And it's interest and.

Final question, i know that you have to run and to leave and a feel minutes.

That's get.

What do you think as it as a practice you all?

We Menschen to so what we can do what we can stop doing we you menschen that we should have a meeting or conversation about meetings and you all so menschen that that manager as i action you also maybe a part of the problem.

I don't like to protect a mabelitable because there am most like the also involved in a discussion, so what you think about or any any experience salts from useide to have someone like it doesnt have aji frameworks they have aji coaches you know what you think about heaving meeting facilitators.

With in my company who have me estaprish this stewartyp and good practice is around meetings.

So that's a practice that we have done with organisations.

We have to start us certify people as good meeting facilitators and and they start to be coaches of others so and becomed the nice castgating model and i love it you know i love the idea trient to cate them new norms around meeting facilitation.

You know one of the things that we know for example, in meetings is the more the manager talks the way of the ratings of the factivers the more the manager talks the way of the ravings of a factivers be as one dementity the mansers job is the facilitate i they call people to get there they want it in theory they want there voices and they think the be fokus on facilitating and when you're talking a lot you just can't facilitate a factory.

But i absolut love this idea of trine to private more so for wearness to managers right, so we do the engation service they start to get feed back and how they really are at leading this that we private operatun this to improved there skills and that we absolut leak and sertify people so that not only have they this is an a knoglesman of there training, but that they can start private coaching to other and.

You know one, i think that what a have the organisation does if you're onboarding in new leader a big part of that onboarding should be meeting leadership i when you've up in the organisation that means that you're prob of the calling warm war meetings, so it's a be a standard part of onboarding that you are making shar that you're skills or go do understand stewardship and your ready to go.

And now we one one final question to remension the couple of time meeting assessments.

Any recomendations good practice or to have to my be any any templates you good share with allismers what that at least i good take them as a starting point to genau ok and that's not have before the meetings about meetings that's my be collect, some data and the into.

That's Ray.

In my book, i do have some examples of assessments in the first book to surising science and meetings in particular the work i do with the organisations i have other assessments that i us and i just down to be very gary effective, so but there's um examples in my first in my first books that should be hope for and then at the very least managers can aster people.

The a some typ of question there about what's going well not so well and IDS for improved right.

That's the bear minnum and then the contact that information one reflect and tries and do thates so that's a managers can do and but clearly we the italabit more at the organisation level, so defley you the the book has some ideas and then but oft in what all do when i work at the organisations is you know i have.

What I See a the best ways of the sessing and but that in also one of mexure fats the organisations so this is a bit of the customization at things plays to.

We're good, we're definity share your book as a recomendation and the show notes.

Thank you.

Thanks a lot Steam pleasure pleasure talking to you thanks for shang all the the wistom and the the work you of done around meetings and that's hope that we baby convince to view lizmers to.

Have a meetings about meetings.

Well, thank you i really ins you.

I talking to you and i preciate you acting like a good steward of mice time so i preciated.

Thank you thanks the last you.

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