You're listening to a Mom and Me a podcast.

How Bad Cannot Getting Enough Sleep?

Be?

Hello, I'm Claire Murphy.

Today we're bringing you a bonus episode of Well.

Doctor Marriam is off treating actual patients like she absolutely should be doing right now.

But I have a very special guest to help us better understand what it's like to deal with real sleep problems.

We have talked about lots of different sleep disorders with a lot of different sleep experts recently, but what does it actually feel like to experience insomnia?

How do you go about your daily life while also chasing sleep every single night?

And what if you're also a parent.

We're bringing you some real life experiences this week with our Mom and Me.

A colleague and very good friend, Annale Todd.

Hello, Hello Claire.

I'm disappointed.

I thought Dr Mariam would be here and I'm beginning medical advice.

I know.

I'm so sorry.

I came here under false pretenses.

I thought I was getting medical help and I'm just chatting with you.

What do you do anyway?

You just get me today?

Sorry to let you down.

Maybe I'll pass this on to Marriaman feedback.

She's very good with this.

Yes, So Analise, welcome to Well.

Could I please and just fear listening.

Just know that every time I see Analise, every single time without fail, what do you say to me?

Well?

Well?

Well to you looking well?

Every single though?

For our well community, could you just give us a little snapshot of what you do here at Mamma Mia, and please do tell us about the pod that you're currently hosting.

To Well, Claire, I'm so glad you are stop saying well, Well, I can't so I'm Analy's Todd.

I work at Mamma Mia.

I'm a lifestyle producer, so I write about fashion, travel, relationships, all the things.

And I also am hosting the most Beautiful podcast She built that, which is a co listening experience, So it's for you to listen to with your kids, and it's about amazing, brilliant women and it's just this beautiful roadmap for little girls and kids to listen to about how you can be brilliant in the future.

Gives some idea of some of the people you've spoken to.

So we've got Chloe Hayden.

She is Heartbreak High'm Heartbreak High.

Netflix is Heartbreak High, and she's an autistic advocate and she's brilliant.

We also spoke to Australia's first and only female astronaut, Catherine Parnell peg Yep, she's amazing.

That episode is just like goosebumps and it's just so inspiring.

But yet I just absolutely love it.

My kids love it, and it was just very warm and fuzzy.

It will leave you feeling very well.

She can't help us out.

I can't for what age kiddos to co listen, I would say like little kids.

They're about they're between sort of twelve and eighteen minutes, so depending on new kids.

But there's lots of fun sound effects.

I literally speak like a playschool presenter.

It was so fun to read and.

So far it's a lot of energy.

Oh I did, but it was so fun.

Which is weird that we're talking about what we're talking about today.

I know I'm really good at faking not being tired, but yeah, I would say sort of your primary school age kid.

It's amazing it Well, as I've mentioned, we are not talking about any of that today.

We are talking about the fact that you and I have known each other for a while and at work and outside of work, we have often discussed the fact that you do struggle with insomnia.

Yes, can we backtrack a little bit because I'd love to know.

Remember, like your mum will often tell you, oh God, you're a terrible sleeper, or europe all night or sent her to the brink of insanity.

Have you ever had conversations about what kind of sleeper you were as a kid.

I don't know.

I was a baby.

I used to take a long time to fall asleep as a kid.

I do remember that.

Just sort of lying in bed and my brain sort of being on overdrive is just a general lifelong issue, I think.

So you're a bit of an overthinker once everything calms down and.

Is quiet, definitely, But that's not the current problem.

Falling asleep is not the issue.

The current issue is staying asleep.

Okay, well, let's fast forward then and figure out where that started.

When did you realize there was actually an issue with sleep for you?

It first popped up when I was pregnant both times.

So I've got two children, and both pregnancies I had diagnosed pregnancy insomnia.

I did not even know that was a thing.

So it's something to do with hormones, right, And so it happens to some women where there's a shift in your hormones and something to do with the baby hormones keeps you up at night, and then as soon as the baby comes out.

Literally I remember the night I was in hospital.

I was like, oh, I'm tired, I can sleep now, and then the baby keeps you up, you know.

Okay, So it's the vicious cycle from pregnancy insomnia to having actual babies.

Yeah, but then it definitely peaks.

So I think around about five years ago, I was diagnosed with depression and I went on medication for that.

And one of the big signs for me and depression is very very debilitating insomnia, Like I mean, in its worst, even with medication, cannot sleep.

So take me through a non medicated night as in back then after pregnancies.

What did that look like for you?

Well, that was fine because I was able to sleep, but I was woken up by a baby.

So and that was because my kids are teenagers and tween ages.

So it's donkeys years ago.

Now what about when you're pregnant.

What did that look like?

Oh?

It was so awful because I literally just couldn't sleep.

You've got to be so careful with medication.

Obviously when you're pregnant.

I remember with my second pregnancy, because I had a toddler and I was pregnant.

I literally had to go and see a psychologist because it started to impact my mental health and paranoia and things like that, and anxiety, which I'm not really an anxious person.

It was just I remember I didn't feel safe to drive.

So when did it come back to you as a problem.

So you've raised babies, Yeah, when do you figure out the difference between it's just kids waking up all night and it's actually you not sleeping.

Well, I had some good years because it wasn't until about five years ago and my kids.

Like I said, I didn't have babies at this stage, but I did have a huge struggle with my mental health and I was diagnosed with depression.

And one of the things that made me realize was I can't sleep even when medicated, and I can't get out of.

Bed in the morning.

So, you know, that was a whole realization process about you know, the dark thoughts and is it the lack of sleep or is it So that was kind of the second iteration of it, or it's third era maybe because there was two pregnancies, So that was the third era it did calm down.

I was on medication, my mental health improved.

The other iteration and time it really peaked was at the end of my marriage and so that was sort of over three years ago now, so a very incredibly stressful time.

And again, my sleep's the first thing that goes.

So you've mentioned you were diagnosed with depression.

What role does that play if any in new suffering insomnia?

Do they go hand in hand?

Are they separate?

Do we know it.

Would be different for everyone In my case when the insomnia gets really really bad, because right now I'm not depressed and my insomnia is manageable, it's probably you know, for most people, being away a few times a night would not be manageable.

For me, it totally is.

But when I had depression and I was diagnosed, that was for me one of the things that I realized that's one of my markers.

It's one of my indicators that my mental health isn't great.

So if mine somnia is really really bad, that's when I go, Okay, what's going on?

How am I feeling?

What are my thoughts?

Am I getting dark?

Because since I've no longer depressed.

There was a period where I started to feel myself getting low again and I started to feel sad and the sleep again, it just completely went, and I thought, I know that's a sign.

I did realize.

But one of the things for me and depression and one of the symptoms is insomnia.

So I just did a whole sort of like health, a sort of running and all the natural things that I know.

Mood boosting for me is just really working on my fitness and my serotonin and going for swims in the ocean and those natural joy things.

And I was able to not be medicated the second time that I felt the depression creeping back in, or the dark cloud as I call it.

So I don't know it would be different for everyone, but for me, when my insomnia is really bad, that's a marker that's like, okay, we'll hang on what's going on with my mental health.

It's just a bit of a warning sign for me.

But then, of course, if you're not sleeping, it works like yeah, chicken all the egg, it's like vicious cycle, shit sandwich.

Talk to me about what that feels like when you are trying to go to sleep and can't, And I mean without medication.

Are you trying to employ all these different tools that people tell you to do, like get up and do something else or you know what kind of things?

Have you?

Screen bands, Leavenier?

Yeah, all that right, So you've run through all of those things and hygiene.

You lay there and just what think about things?

It's torture.

You can't switch off your brain and you're so tired.

Your eyes are hot.

It feels like someone's stabbing you in the eye with a hot coal because you're so tired.

But you can't switch off your brain.

You literally there's nothing you can do.

One of the things that does actually help that I use now is meditation music.

It does help kind of drown out the noise inside your head.

I think we realize that in the day and age that we currently live in where we are doing a million things at once, especially as women, when we're carrying a hell of a lot of mental load.

You're a single parent now, which also means you're carrying extra load on top of that as well.

That needing those things to turn our brains off, I think we all understand is it's really quite functional and actually really works.

But what sort of things were you listening to what was actually helping you.

It's not guided meditation.

It's more those little symbols and like something you would if you walked into like a really woo woo you.

Know, day spa.

It's that kind of vibe.

I just like some finger symbols.

Yeah, just crashing waves, pan flutes and yeah, yeah, I know it sounds silly, right, but sometimes like that's why you fall asleep sometimes when you go and have a massage because the sound is actually so soothing.

There is a lot of conversation about sleep hygiene these days.

There is a billion TikTok videos on what you should and shouldn't do.

Have you tried to enforce a sleep hygiene routine, is or anything within that that you found has actually helped with insomnia?

Yeah, I've tried the whole no phone's in bed and I honestly didn't make a difference because I fall asleep.

It's more the staying asleep that's the issue for me.

So I haven't found any of that has worked.

When I've stayed in hotels before with those like magic blackout blinds, I've occasionally had a sleep in where I've kind of looked at my phone and gone Oh my god.

It's eight am.

How did that happen?

And that's asleep in for me because I just I don't sleep in.

So I think if you could make your room really dark and quiet somehow magically, that would be good.

So that's what's happening when you go to sleep.

What's happening in the waking hours when you're at your worst with insomnia?

What does getting through the day look like, especially when you're parenting on top of.

That, Yeah, it's torture.

There's no amount of coffee, nothing, Nothing touches the sides and your eyes.

It's like I guess when you have babies and you're that sleep deprived where you don't feel like you're of this earth, Like you know when mister Burns comes out.

Of like the Oh it's like a floating alien.

Yeah, yes, it's like and he's got those big black holes his eyes and he's floating and he's like not of this earth.

You feel like that.

It's basically radioactive mister Burns.

When you're sitting at your desk trying to do work, what's happening to you?

Because you're tired, but you can't sleep, But do you feel sleepy?

Do you feel like you need to go to sleep or want to go to sleep, or is it literally just the scratchy eyes and the brain fog?

Like, what's it like to try and work when you happen.

When insois at its worst.

Yeah, yeah, it's difficult to collect thoughts and put them into sequence and be able to prioritize your day.

That is tricky, and it.

Also really impacts your emotions because again, like you compare it to when you have a brand new baby, you just feel really vulnerable.

You feel like you're on the outside of your body.

Does your lack of sleep impact you socially?

Does it affect your relationships?

You think?

I think sometimes it would impact my patience with my kids.

Definitely.

Yeah, I can definitely say that when it's at its worse, you're snappier.

You just don't have the tolerance and the patience that you need to be an effective, calm parent.

So I'd say definitely.

You know that is impacted with a really bad lack of sleep.

And again I'm thinking back to when it was at its worst, because you know, I'm functioning right now paranoia with really close relationships, I would say, but that's when I went and started seeing a psychologist to sort of talk through those those dark thoughts canceling plans and things.

No, I mean, I'm just full of fomo.

I'll just keep carrying on.

I don't like canceling plans, And because I can exist on a lack of sleep, it doesn't force me to cancel plans because I'll just carry on.

Even if I've gone out for like a big night with friends, I'm still up at seven am.

I'm like, let's go for coffee, Let's go for a walk.

What are we doing?

And everyone's like, how are you alive?

And I'm like, God's buy it's that's fine.

Cool.

So when you're looking for treatment, so you've done all of the things, you've tried to engage and see if that will help, when or what happens for you to finally go and seek professional help with it, Well, I'm.

Kind of at that place now because I'm in the final stage and iteration and era of my insomnia where it's not really crippling, but it's bad enough where I can go to sleep at night you just say ten o'clock, nine thirty, ten, ten thirty, but then I wake up at three am or four am.

And I'm awake for about an hour and a half or two hours without fail, unless I'm medicated.

If I seek medication, I can wake up and go back to sleep pretty quickly.

But without that, I am bang, Okay, what are we doing?

What's on tomorrow?

It's as if it's seven am and I've just had a coffee.

What scares me because I can function.

It's that you hear all the stats about you know, all of the things that can happen if your body doesn't get enough sleep.

You know, I'm in my forties.

I'm not my twenties anymore, even though mentally I am, my body's not.

So I'm just scared because you read all the stats about cancer and disease and all the things that not having enough sleep impacts you long term, and that scares me, Like I am scared.

So I'm kind of like, well, what do I do?

What?

What help can I get?

Because I've tried everything, but it just seems to be that from three am or four am, I'm awake.

Who can help me with that?

I don't know.

Being in your forties, have you considered that hormones might be playing a role again for you now?

Because you're in perimenopause territory.

Look out.

I just said, I'm mentally in my twins.

Do you reckon that?

I don't know.

I haven't thought about that, probably because I am mentally twenty eight.

That's not something that I consider well, you know, because from a lot of us, and myself included, I've always been a go to sleep, knocked out for eight hours kind of gal.

But for me, I hit forty four and same thing three am.

It was like a bell had gone off and I was completely one hundred percent awake, not just like groggy, like oh what's going on?

It was literally like let's go blinped straight open, that's ready to get on with the day.

I could have just gotten up and started my day then and there.

And lucky for me, I mean not everyone thinks this is lucky, but I start work to stuff to four ams.

I have been It hasn't been too huge an implication of my life.

But yeah, for a lot of women at our age that starts to become a hormonal issue.

Has that been something you can consider speaking to your doctor about?

And here I was just cursing you for not having doctor Merriman might have been that it's not medical advice where Look, I actually hadn't thought about it, but maybe, yeah, maybe I do need to be realistic about my age mentally.

Yeah, look, and if there is a solve, I will take it.

Like, I don't want to be like this.

It's hard.

It's hard being tired all the time.

What does that look like physically?

I mean, we know what happens when you don't have enough sleep.

You're not always on your game.

Like you said, you've been concerned about driving.

Physically, it's harder to even to stay upright.

Have you ever found yourself at a point where you've hurt yourself, where you feel like you put yourself in danger truly because you just don't have enough sleep under your belt to get through a day or to perform a task in its current iteration.

It's not as bad as it has been in the past, So it's more just I'm constantly tired.

But maybe you're just a bit more tired than normal people.

But because I've been functioning with insomnia for so long, I don't even know what not being tired.

Actually, I had one night when I was on holidays in Greece in July.

In case you missed it, I weirdly accidentally went to sleep at like seven pm Grease time, and because of the jet lag, I had twelve hours of sleep in a row.

And I don't think that I've had that in ten years.

I couldn't tell you.

And I do remember the next day.

I mean, yes, I was on holidays in Greece, but I just remember my brain feeling so clear and feeling so calm and so relaxed because I'd actually had twelve hours sleep.

Yeah, that's really sad, isn't it.

I was gonna say, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Knowing how good you can feel, I need to move to Greece would be the same.

I mean, that seems to be the answer.

I mean, there's a few things.

I don't know if this was insomnia related, but I did have a very bad fall when I was asleep, and I wasn't medicated.

But I had moved house not too long before, and when I go out of my bedroom in my old house, the toilet was on the left and the stairs on the right, and at the other house it was reversed, so I sort of I remember waking up and thinking I need to do a Wii, which is actually one of the reasons I do get up quite a lot in the night.

It's probably an age thing too.

Perimenopause does lead to fun and extra wheeze.

Yes, great, And so I kind of I woke up and I remember think I've got a Wii, and then I must have fallen back asleep.

And then the next thing I remember, I came to and I was tumbling downstairs, but I didn't know where I was.

I just remember like feeling bumps and tumbling over and over and thinking this is bad, this is really bad.

And then I sort of came to at the bottom of the stairs and I actually broke my finger.

What kind of wake up call is that when you fall down the stairs?

Which can potentially be linked to I mean a couple of things.

Could be sleep deprivation, but could be just being in a different house.

But what do you think about after that's happened, other than recovering from a broken finger.

Do you then go, I really need to do more to get this sleep issue under control.

Is there any more you could do at this point?

Well, the thing that I do now is if I sort of come to in the night and I need to go to the toilet, I get up, make.

Sure I'm awaken.

I gone to my right.

So that's like that twilight state is just.

Not no no twilight toilet states ever again.

Living in multi stared houses, I think I'm years down the track from a divorce and I'm in a really great place mentally.

I feel like there's so many things I've had to relearn how to do, and so many different iterations of improvements.

I do feel like the sleep's the last thing that I've kind of just been surviving, but I really would like to solve it.

I think it's just one of.

Those things where I've been surviving it, so it's like, well, I don't know what else I can do about it.

I'll just kind of put it over there for now.

But I would love to be able to sleep, you know.

And I've got girlfriends and they're like, oh, I had a ten hour sleep, and I'm just like, how is that even possible?

I would love to sleep.

Yeah, But although my dad doesn't sleep much at night, maybe I'm just not.

A big sleepers.

Well it's genetic.

Blaming him for that in its current iteration.

And I did sort of track my sleep last night so we could talk about it because I was looking at my phone when I was awake.

I think I went to sleep at like ten thirty.

I woke up at about two.

I did doze off.

Then I was awake from three until five thirty, and that was hard.

And then sometimes because I live by myself now that I'm divorced, if my kids aren't there, I do get a bit scared as well, like for her and NOI is the anxiety in the fight or flight kicks in.

Yeah, so that also I think comes into play a little bit as well, living on my own.

But then I did go back to sleep, and then I had some really hectic dreams.

Is that usual for you dreaming?

No, really unusual to dream because usually I'm medicated.

I feel really tired.

Now, thanks, should we go and have a coffee.

Let's have a nap?

Can you nap?

I don't nap because I then find it hard to fall asleep.

So moiling asleep is okay for you.

Okay, it's just staying asleep.

So sometimes on a weekend I might have like twenty minutes and that's a refresher disco nap, you know, yeah, ready to head out.

Well, if it's any consolation, because I've been working at four am for the majority of my career.

I've been told many a time it means I will die ten years earlier then I potentially would have had I not done.

A job that yeah, makes me get up at four o'clock every morning.

If that's the thing I want to keep living, I really do.

Life is so fun even when you're tired.

Even when you're tired.

Well, that's the thing.

Well, hopefully there is an answer to that for you somewhere down the track.

But if someone is listening to this and like, yep, I am, I'm seeing some common threads here, is there any advice you can give somebody, just, you know, one insomniac to another, Is that how you've managed to find good people, good medical help?

Like, what is it that's been anything of help to you?

I think yeah?

Again, Like in its current form, being awake for an hour and a half in the night, it's not as bad as it has been.

But if I think back to like when it's been at its absolute worst, is absolutely seek medical help.

Because I got to a point where it was impacting my mental health and I was getting paranoid and things.

That's just not me.

And if there's any impacts on your mental health that you don't feel are you and they're lower than you should be, and you feel like you're having darker thoughts or bad thoughts that's not you.

Then definitely see a doctor because you can absolutely get help for that.

My other advice would just be just to be kind to yourself, because when you're so tired, and if anyone who has had a baby that sleep deprivation, once you've had it, you never forget it.

And that's what being insomniac is like.

It's literally always feeling like you've got a newborn.

And so it's that same sort of treating yourself with kid gloves and just being kind to yourself and just literally it sounds so tropy, but don't worry about the washing, don't worry about anything.

It's just whatever gets you through the day.

Whether it's ordering a pizza for dinner, not cooking, none of it matters because you've.

Just got to look after yourself.

That is some sage advice.

I think we all need to listen to it, even if we don't suffer from sleep problems.

Just and maybe move to Greece.

That seems to be yes.

Six everything to always remain well, always remain well.

I'm glad we came full sick with that.

Well Well.

If you are having sleep issues, as Annalie said, make sure you reach out to your own doctor because what you have heard here today is specific for Analise's situation, so you need to get the advice that is right for you.

And if you are really struggling with your mental health, make sure you reach out to people as well, whether that's someone close to you or there are amazing services available like Beyond Blue or Lifeline, who are on thirteen eleven fourteen.

Well wepoken about perimenopause a couple of times here today and that is what we are going to be talking about next week.

So we are delving right into the hormones, right into the symptoms, because there is a list as long as you're arm, so make sure you check that out.

Dr Marian, We'll be back to much to do your delight.

I know I'll be listening because it might just be that that is the mode that I'm currently facing.

You never never know until you go speak to your own doctor.

Well is produced by me Claire Murphy and our senior producer Sally Best, with video production by Julian Masario and Social Production by Ellie Moore.

Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land.

We have recorded this podcast on the Gatagoul people of the Eor Nation.

We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures