You're listening to a mom with mea podcast.

And to place myself in the media in a more positive way has been really, I think, life changing for me and for others, because I want people when they google ichthiosis not to be scared, but to see what's possible.

Carlie Finlay is a writer, speaker, visibility activist, and influencer who's been teaching us about her inflammatory skin condition ichthiosis for years.

We've watched her deal with the pain and frustration, through the low moments and quite a few lovely highs too, always with a fabulous outfit, and through it all educating, entertaining, and allowing us into her space so that we might learn how to help those around us with visible conditions.

Carlie, thank you for joining us, Welcome to.

Well, thank you for having me.

I think for those of us who don't know someone with your condition, it is very rare, so the chances of us knowing so with it is also rare.

But can you give us an idea of what it's like to live in your body?

Are you ever at rest from the pain in the itchiness, like, is there ever a moment where you are just comfortable?

I think I always notice it.

I always feel some part of my body.

My skin condition nickthiosis affects everything.

It's the reddest on my face, and I think that's because I'm exposed to the elements the most, and it is the sorest, i'd say, on my legs and my hands.

It does vary in wedness.

Immediately after a shower, I'm particularly red because of the hot water and also when I am in great pain.

But mostly my face is quite comfortable, but my body is not.

How do you explain it to people?

And like, if you had a dollar for every time someone asked you why is your face red?

Or why does your face looked like that?

How rich would you be?

Do you think a bajillionaire billionaire?

Established?

So since I did, you can't as that On the AVC, there was a time there where I reckon.

I got asked more have you been on you can't?

Than are you sunburnt?

Or what's wrong?

You finally got a question to open take it.

I describe it as scaly red skin, and I was born with this.

There's no cure.

Often the treatments for it are worse than the skin condition itself.

So I take very few medications for it I'm red and itchy and scaly and in pain all over my body and scalpe.

It affects my temperature.

I'm not very good at regulating my temperature, and I'm often running cold, so even when it's really warm, I'm often really cold.

But I do get overheated as well, so that can be tricky when it's forty five degrees and I'm sort of lying on the tiles to cool down.

When I did my book launch in Melbourne a few years ago, it was very, very hot.

I think it was like forty five or forty six degrees and it was not glamorous at all, and I was on the floor in the bathroom trying to cool down.

I'm really susceptible to infections, so staff infections, and I enjoy chronic pain.

So it's hard to explain, but I guess it's nerve pain.

The doctors were explaining to me that over the years, the skin pain has gotten so bad that it's sort of resulted in nerve pain, and I take painkillers for that.

But overall, I think the social aspects of more difficult than the medical aspects.

And what do you mean by that in terms of socially Is it just going out and about and having people look at you or people not really understanding the diagnosis.

Yeah, I think it's you know, the stairs, the looks, the laughs, the whispers, the blatant discrimination, like you know, taxi drivers refusing to take me because of the ointment I use similar to basoline, I use paraf annointment.

It's having to explain.

It's noticing people who when I buy something, if I'm ever giving them cash, they don't touch my hand because they're scared of catching something or you know, the way it feels.

One of the benefits though, is you know when you meet really slimy men and they go in for the kiss, like I never get.

That, I know, right, And I'm also.

Just having to educate and being expected to educate all times.

Like a few months ago, I finished pilates and I went to the supermarket, you know, just getting off my day like everyone else.

And there was another person at the dealy cancer next to me, and she wasn't asked anything about her appearance.

And then I said can I get some chicken thighs?

And the sales assistant immediately asked what happened?

And normally, you know, I'll say I was bored like that, or I've got a skin condition, but I just didn't want to and I said, I am here to buy chicken.

It's not part of your job to know how I got like this or my face is red.

And she sort of apologized but then justified why.

She just wanted to know.

She's just curious and the accumulation of curiosity is really tiring.

And so I actually did speak to the manager.

I rarely do that, but I did that day because I just wanted to get on with my day.

I just wanted to buy the chicken thighs and go home and cook something and I was interrupted.

So that kind of cumulative effective interruption and intrusive questions is really quite wearing.

You know, sometimes I just want to stay in bed and eat cheese and listen to Savage Garden.

And that's okay, Savage Garden.

Cheese and Savage Garden.

It's a great combination.

Yeah.

I mean, if Savage Garden isn't your thing, I'm sure you can find something else.

But you know, Darren Hayes is the most superior singer in Australia.

So Darren Hayes, if you're watching this right now, collaboration in the work.

Can I ask you, Kelly, about what created the shift for you between I mean, living and dealing with ichthiosis and becoming an advocate in your own right.

Was there a moment that you can think back on that you were like, I've had enough.

I need to let people know what the reality of this is.

Yeah.

I think it was when I saw how ichthiosis was portrayed in the media.

That was when I was about eighteen and I was watching this show called Medical Incredible, and I was like, really focused in just on body parts rather than faces.

A narrator who didn't have igthiosis was narrating it and talking about the worst aspects.

I just thought, I don't want to continue to read articles and watch shows like this.

And then, you know, like I study journalism and blogged and could write about it, so I did.

Can I ask as a health professional, you mentioned it's exhaucing always having to educate people considering this is a rare disease.

You know something I probably got one day in medical school.

Having to see health professionals so often, and you're often the expert in the has that also been exhausting for you in those settings?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

My dematology team at the Royal Melbourne Hospital is really great in that they see me as the expert and they know that I'm not looking for treatments that will make my skin and the rest of my organs worse than I already am, so that's great.

But it is also a teaching hospital, so when I go to other departments like the eyes and ears and immunology, often I'm the first person that they've ever seen.

Sometimes it's almost like.

They won the lottery where they're like, you know, he's a rare patient.

Wow, we've finally seen one in the wild.

That's like any medical TV show you see when like a new kse comes in and all the yeah.

And they'll bring in student doctors and that's fine most of the time.

I'm fine to talk to them, but if I'm not well from there and I'm not well, it's tricky.

Last year I was diagnosed with and treated for ovarian and in a mutual cancer and that was really hard because I had to be the advocate for my skin as well.

Fortunately the hospital that I was diagnosed at, the Royal Women's and also treated at the Peter Mack, they're all in the park Field Precinct, so they talk to each other with the Royal Melbourne Hospital, which is great, so I would be sending emails and copying everyone in, but I still had to really advocate, and no one really knew what happen to my skin.

And when I found out I probably have cancer, I googled cancer and ichthiosis and also menopause and ichthiosis because I was put into early menopause and there was nothing nothing, And I asked in a Facebook group what I should expect if I have menopause and what should I expect the ichthiosis to do.

Will it dehydrate me, will it make me sow?

Will it make me more itchy?

And disappointingly, a leader within the community said just get on with it like any other woman.

And I made it my job.

I guess when I was sick, to educate really publicly about ichthiosis and cancer treatment particularly and also menopause, because there was nothing and so now when you google it, you'll find my writing.

And I also co authored a paper with my oncologist and dermatologist about it.

And I was really adamant that there'd be photos of my face in there, because so many times and I featured in medical photography before we're dehumanized, like our faces are blacked out in medical photography and it's only showing like parts of our body.

And I know, I put myself online so much so people can see that living with ichiosis isn't so bad.

I wanted to show my whole self.

So when that finds a home in a publication, that would be really great.

And I did have people with ichiosis contact me to say they've been diagnosed with cancer or they'd had it in the past.

And there was one person who is in Finland and she was diagnosed with breast cancer around the same time I was, and we had the same treatment, and so we were cheering each other on and she said she didn't know anything until she found my writing on it.

And she's cancer free now too, and so am I.

So that's good, but it's a lot of extra advocacy.

Well, congratulations on being cancer free at this point too.

So it was a bit worrying though, Yeah, I'm very vigilant.

And also the treatment was so bad that my skin was the worst it's ever been.

Well, can you talk us through that, because you're one of the first people to really go public with the ichthiosis and cancer treatment conditions.

What was it like for you?

Yeah, I had four rounds of chemo.

I was due to have six, and I also had five weeks I think of radiotherapy, and the first round of chemo.

I had two different drugs and they were going to put a cold cap on me.

I know Lucy woman spoken with Polly and right about this.

Lucy had cancer at some time.

I did, and we met in the chemo waiting room.

So she had a cold cap and I was about to have a cold cat too.

That cold cap prevents your hair from falling out, because my hair is already brittle from ichthyosis, and I'm quite small.

They said no, it wouldn't be great because I think it would burn like the cold burn my head.

So I didn't have that.

It was just so bad, like I think, because chemo targets the rapidly dividing cells of cancer, it also kills the good cells, and so my skin would shed.

It sheds once every day, compared to someone without ichthyosis, where it takes twenty eight days for a body's worth of skin to shed.

Mud sheds every day.

But when I was on chemo, my skin would come off in sheets, you know, like my limbs would look like a limb, My foot would look like a foot when the skin came up, and it was really really sore, and I took a lot of photos.

I was still taking my regular painkillers, but I just didn't have you just wasn't hitting the spot, so I needed more.

They stopped that drug that caused.

That one of them, and then I had three other rounds with just one drug and it was okay, but still I was sore.

I was really susceptful to infection.

My hair fell out, and I was really worried about that because when I was a kid, I used to get lots of bald patches and my hair wouldn't grow back properly.

It'd get really itchy.

But that's been an upside of chemo.

Every time I look at my curls, I'm like, thanks chemo to me.

It was really like it's just come back in an amazing way, Like it's never been this stick and healthy before.

So that's been good.

And I kind of joke that maybe I'll go in every year for a round just to maintain the.

Hair carly, because there was no information about what it would do to your skin condition the chemo, so I guess it was just a bit of trial and error.

Did that frustrate you and was that quite difficult through the process.

Yeah, I think it.

Did frustrate me because I think with skin conditions in general, it's not seen as severe and life threatening.

So if I go to the emergency, even when I didn't have cancer, if I went to emergency and they asked me my level of pain and I said, you know, seven or eight out of ten, that's so really that's really high because they can't see it.

I guess.

So when I had cancer, it was tricky because there was an extra layer.

But I was already used to educating advocating, so it wasn't too bad.

But I guess I just didn't know what it was going to be like, and I think every cancer patient would feel like that, the trepidation of not knowing.

I was really worried about radiotherapy, but it was okay.

They used the same ointment on people's skin after they have radiotherapy as I used, so that was useful and I took it pretty well.

And my dad had radiotherapy a while ago and he doesn't have ichiosis, but he has the gene, and so my dermatologist said to me that if he took it well, then I should.

Too, So it was it was okay.

The hardest thing about cancer was the uncertainty and the waiting between things.

So, you know, like my nails fell off, and I've got quite good nails, and I just didn't know whether they'll ever come back in the same way.

And I never knew when the pain was going to stop.

But yeah, I feel all right now.

You've touched on this a couple of times, talking about not having friends as a kid, and you know, having to deal with not just your face being red, but like your hair being like bald patches, So like lots to deal with as a young person, especially as a young adult.

Our teen years are hard enough as it is without having extras to deal with.

How has your mental health been throughout your life and has there been times where you've needed to lean on people a little harder?

Yeah, I mean I think when I was a kid, I just didn't realize why people were excluding me, and I didn't didn't understand that blatant exclusion.

You know, people wouldn't sit next to me, they wouldn't touch me because they would think I would be contagious.

And I don't remember this, but my mum talks about it a little bit.

When I was nine, I said to her that I didn't want to live anymore, and she and my dad took me to the psychiatrist straight away.

That was useful, but I don't remember any of it.

To be honest, it really took a long time to feel really comfortable about, you know, not covering up for the sake of making other people comfortable.

I cover up wearing long sleeves and long pants clothes to make me comfortable in my skin, but not to God.

Yeah, yeah, so I think when I learned that, you know, I can wear things that make me happy and I'm not hiding for the sake of appeasing others, that was really great.

Also, connecting with other.

People online and finding other people with the giosis and other skin condition and facial difference is to show that I'm not alone.

That was really useful too.

It was really hard throughout my life, and I think as much as I am used to being discriminated against or stared at or ask questions, it can still be exhausting.

And it still surprises me that interruption in my day still surprises me.

And often that's when I have a really good day and a taxi driver will refuse me, or I'll get laughed at by kids, or people will take photos of me on the train or something.

So that can be hard, but I would say in the you know, the last sort of fifteen years, it's been a lot easier to handle things.

Can we talk about I mean, you're wearing a fabulous dress right now, but you always wear gorgeous dresses, so bright big prints.

When did that start to become a part of your dealing with this situation because it looks like it's shifting away from looking at you as a skin condition and you as a human because you are fashionable and you are showing this outward love of how you look, and so people then have to accept that that is a part of that whole package.

Was that a really conscious choice by you to do that or did this kind of evolve over time for you?

Yeah, I've always liked fashion, but when I was younger, I would not buy things to stand out.

And I remember I bought some really lovely clothes and I thought, oh no, I can't wear that.

I'll stand out even more.

I didn't want to stand out even more than I did, so I never wore them.

And then I think sort of when I tend thirty, it just changed and I just realized it was far easier to like myself than hate myself, or be visible than invisible.

And yeah, I've just sort of seen my skin color now as a bit of an accessory.

And you know, sometimes I get kids say, oh, I love how sparkly your face is, or you know, that's really lovely to hear.

So, yeah, brand it's going to send me some makeup.

I don't wear much makeup, but they're going to send me some makeup.

And they're like, what color do you like?

I don't really know, but I think wearing pink makes me happy, So that's nice and I really enjoy that.

You know.

I have a group of girlfriends who are or into really bright clothes as well, and that's how we met, and I think being with them and having that community has really helped.

And also one thing that I do, I don't do it so much now, but I used to do it when Twitter was a better place, and I used to put on my Twitter every day nearly a tweet.

And this was for brevity but also to raise expectations of people.

I would say, I wore this today and felt fabulous, and I was about feeling fucking fabulous, and it's defying the expectations that looking like this, I couldn't feel fabulous.

Well, you look fabulous, you do look.

And I think it's about that.

And I think if you have a skin condition, and you know, you speak to yourself nicely and you treat yourself nicely and you buy the nice things where the nice things you deserve, that you shouldn't be hiding away because society.

That's a lesson we could all probably tell ourselves at some stage.

Yeah, And I think, you know, growing up reading in terrible women's teenage magazines, I never saw myself in that, and I'd see ads for acne treatment, I'd see ads for dan drift treatment, and so that really showed me that having a skin condition, even though those things are different to mine, were things that we need to eradicate.

And so when I read articles about ichthiosis, they've always been terrible.

The headlines have been like mermaid, baby, snake, skinned woman, really dehumanizing stuff, And so that made me be really conscious in writing about ichthiosis.

You know, myself and other stories as well, to change that narrative, because I don't want to see an article about ichthyosis unless I've written it, and I know that that sounds a bit up myself.

But there are really amazing writers now that are in the media.

You know, some of my friends overseas have written for teen, Vogue and The New York Times about their experiences with ichthiosis, and that's brilliant, you know.

I've written for Mum and Meha, but also CNN and The Age and Sidney Morning Herald and all sorts of places vargue even and to place myself in the media in a more positive way has been really I think life changing for me and for others, because I want people when they google ichthiosis not to be scared, but to see what's possible.

I followed you on Twitter many years ago.

That's the first interaction I had with you.

So my introduction to you was not ichthiosis, it was your fabulous fashion.

How have you dealt with ichthiosis and your cultural background because your mum is South African and she has dark skin, and I have read that you've felt a bit fraudulent in accepting that is also a part of your culture too, because you haven't had the experience of the racial discrimination.

But I mean, arguably you've had the same discrimination, just your skin is not black.

But how do you feel about that now?

Yeah, it took me ages to think about that.

I think I had to become confident with ichthiosis before I could think about racial stuff.

And when Stella Young, the incredible comedian, writer and disability activist, was working for ABC ramp Up.

Stella passed away in twenty fourteen, she'd asked me to write about how my race and disability identity intersex and I wasn't ready to yet.

And I really in a way, you know, now she's not here, I feel like I let her down a bit because I wasn't to write about it then.

But I did write about it after she died, and I wrote about how I didn't know whether I could call myself a person of color.

It took other people to call me a person of color to realize that I was.

And when I was younger, people would ask me it was so weird, you know, that kind of microaggression racism, you know that say, if you weren't read, would you be black or white?

You know, and then people would say, of course you'd be white, Yeah, yeah, because you know, apparently that's the superior race or the ideal color.

So that it's been really hard.

But also sometimes when I do get discriminated against, buy or stared at or laughed at by other people in African communities, I sort of want to say, I'm one of you, but I never know what to do.

But last year, before I got diagnosed with cancer, Mom and I went to South Africa on a bit of a research trip for me.

But I did a lot of research into my family and the racial segregation laws, and met a heap of people who worked in disability arts.

And I also met a little boy with ichthyosis over there.

I think he's the only known case of his type of ikthiosis.

It's really severe and I don't know where.

The meeting meet for him was very exciting.

He was an eleven year old boy.

He just wanted to play video games with his friend.

For me, it was really great to meet him, and I met his mom and dad and we went around to their house and then I.

Did a speech at his school.

And because people with ichthyosis, or some people with types of icthiosis, like mine look more like each other than.

They do their family.

The kids were asking me if I was mum, and then he got to do a little introduction on stage, you know, saying, this is my friend Carli from Australia, and it was really cute and just showed you know, him developing some confidence.

So that was really good.

But for the first time I felt like I was a part of a community or color of community when.

I was in South Africa.

I think the thing that I noticed about it was it was very self segregating, so lots of people of color hang out together and I didn't really see any white people and I just felt like, wow, I'm a part of this, and that was I think that was quite life changing.

Can I ask, because obviously, you know, your skin condition is such a big part of your life, you know, you said every day you're experiencing some sort of symptom.

So was it nice to kind of find something other than your skin defining you?

So you've kind of connected with that cultural identity And was it sad that it took so long to get there?

Yeah?

I think so, And I think because we didn't know how I'd be when I was a kid traveling at It taught me a long time to travel.

I do wish I traveled.

Earlier in life, but we didn't know how i'd be you know, we'd always have to have a doctor on hand or you know, the hospital close by.

So I didn't travel for a long time.

And I think Mum really wishes that I'd connected with them earlier.

So that was really great and we all keep in touch now.

By what's up, Kelly?

Can we ask you about motherhood because cancer has meant that that is not an option for you to have children now, But what was it like for you before that?

Because ichthiosis is a genetic condition, would there have been a chance that you would have passed it on to any biological children or did the fact that you had it solidify for you that maybe children weren't an option?

Like where was that for you?

Yeah?

I think for a while I was thinking my husband and I would have children.

But I feel like I liked my independence and I don't really cleaning up pooh, so that was much.

I can't deal with other people's spew or poos, so that was actually a big factor.

But also I think the discrimination and misperceptions from other people were really playing in on this as well.

You know, lots of people would think that I would pass the condition on.

But because the condition is so rare and it's a recessive gene, and my husband is Australian Chinese Malaysian, it would be quite unlikely that we would pass it on to our children if we had them.

Because it's a recessive gene.

It's obviously more likely that my parents would have had another child with the condition than me having a child with the condition.

So there was that.

But weirdly, when I got diagnosed with cancer or told I probably had cancer, you know, there were two stages.

There was like pre diagnosis and a firm diagnosis because they told me the only way they could confirm it was to have a hysterectomy.

I was treated like an adult woman for the first time in my life at age forty two, wow, which is really weird.

The doctors would ask me, are you going to have children?

And you're sure you don't want to freeze your eggs, So that was interesting.

It was a new experience for me being treated like an adult woman by doctors.

And now I feel like now that I can't have children, it's still weird because the chance, and the choice was taken away.

That does make a difference, doesn't it.

When it's your own choice, it's your own choice, and when someone makes it for you, it's you do second guest things.

Right, Yeah, and it's very final, but that's okay, Like I'll never have to clean up a nappy, which is great.

Can I ask Coley?

So you said it was like the first time a doctor had looked at you as an adult woman.

I, as a health professional, always want to do better, and I always want to encourage my colleagues to do better.

When we are dealing with patients with rare diseases, it can become quite easy just to focus on that disease process itself, forget the patient, forget all the other things that are at play.

You know, you said you were going through menopause and you're going through cancer and other things, and it can become quite easy just to focus on the skin condition rather than the person and the story behind the person and all the other conditions that play as well.

What can we do better?

How can we be better doctors?

How can we be better health professionals?

I think for me, there was an assumption that I wouldn't be sexually active because of the way I looked on you know, that someone wouldn't find me attractive and all of that.

So there was that.

And also, I mean, my dermatologists are very good obviously, but they mostly focus on skin stuff.

So it was the first time that I had to see gynecologists as well, and that was actually a really good experience, and there were mostly all women, which is really great.

I think seeing a person through an intersectional lend is really important, So seeing the whole person and knowing that, yes, they have a skin condition, but they might have so many other things going on in their life.

You know, they might be married or single, or you know, wanting to have children or not.

But making sure that you see the whole person and not assume that because they look the way they do or because they have a genetic condition, that doesn't rule them out from having children, or having relationships or being successful in other ways.

There's such low expectations on disabled people overall, that people forget that we're people and that you know, we can do a lot more than just you know, how our body looks and how my mind's are.

For anyone listening who might be living with a rare disease or navigating a health system that doesn't quite understand them.

What would you.

Want them to know about advocating for themselves and finding care that truly supports them.

That's a great question.

I think being really articulate about your experience is really important.

When I had cancer, I wrote a symptom diary, and because I'm a writer, you know, I write a lot.

Mycologist said it's the most detailed symptom diary.

So I kept that and I could show her and refer to it.

That was really useful.

But also just knowing that often when you have a rare condition, you are the expert of your own body, but also perhaps of the condition, and that you can educate people a lot.

I think as well, if you get asked to speak at events, not so much in the hospital, but you know, at training events for doctors, and that also asked for payment, because that is your lived experience and that's your story, and the doctors are getting paid, so you should be too, you know, Like I do a lot of lecturing at universities, and I you know, talk to medical students, and I value my time and my expertise.

So if you're educating outside that hospital system know that your story is valid and that you should be valued and compensated for that.

I'd love to.

Know what keeps motivating you, Cali, because for a lot of people, regardless whether they're able bodied or disabled, or a woman in particular, in this day and age, like a lot of people are stepping away from the limelight because the trolling is awful.

The internet is sometimes a very unsafe space for people.

What keeps you motivated to stand up and be loud and be bright and be proud in this space?

I think it is knowing that I can make such a tangible difference to people who feel alone and think that because they have a skin condition, they're really isolated, that there's no one like them.

I've got friends who have ichthiosis and have said to me that it was when they saw me wearing what I wanted to wear and being out and proud that they could feel out and proud that they could talk to other doctors about their condition.

Sometimes you know, they might see multiple medical professionals but be so ashamed of their skin that they don't talk about it to another doctor.

Facebook memory just popped up.

Actually last night a woman messaged me to tell me that she was pregnant and that she was reading my book and my blog because her baby was diagnosed with ichthiosis in the womb and she wanted to be a better ally And that's really amazing.

And you know, I've seen him grow up now and that's been really really wonderful, real privileged to be in a child's life in that way.

And sometimes doctors put me in touch with parents of children with ichthyosis as well to show that it'll be okay and what's possible.

So, you know, seeing all those kids grow up is really lovely.

And having a relationship with younger people, even people in their teens and early twenties, is really lovely as well, to encourage them and to cheer.

Them on and let them know that they're not alone.

But also I feel like, you know, gen Z now is just so outgoing and proud of all that they are, and so that's really lovely to see as well, that they don't hide the way they look.

Well, Kelly, thank you so much for spending me of time with Mariam and I on Well here today we've covered cancer, menopause, ichthiosis, and your fabulous fashion sense.

I feel like we've covered the majority of women's health issues with one single person.

You're doing a lot of work.

Thank you for sharing this story.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you, thank you, and you are fine fabulous.

I agree so much.

See bye bye, thanks bye.

Thanks well friends for joining us today for this incredible chat with the absolutely fabulous Carli Finlay.

From the exhaustion of constantly educating strangers to the sheer joy of reclaiming her narrative through fashion, Callis reminded us of the great lessons that we don't have to hide away just to make others feel comfortable, and that even when navigating chronic pain or a scary diagnosis, we all deserve to feel fabulous.

So wear that bright dress and take up that space.

As always, we're here to start the conversation, but we are not your doctors.

If anything we've discussed today's raise concerns for you, whether it's about skin conditions, gynecological health, or menopause, please book in with your GP for advice that is tailored to you.

If today's episode has brought up difficult feelings and you need to talk to someone, you can always call Lifeline thirteen eleven fourteen.

Remember be kind to yourself and please don't hesitate to seek support.

Next Tuesday, the twenty second of December, Well is entering holiday mode.

That's right, Our summer listening is coming to keep you well over the holiday period.

You can tune in for not one, but two weekly episodes, including some real life interviews with incredible women who are dealing with health conditions at the same time, just like you and I am like paralympic swimmer.

Catch your detekine, as well as a dose of doctor Marriam advice that we all love and some fun facts about women's bodies that I will provide you with that will also give you some really great Christmas dinner conversations.

See you there.

Well is produced by me Claire Murphy and our senior producer, Sally Best, with audio production by Scott Stronik, video production by Jillian Rosario, and social production by Ellie Moore.

Mma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land.

We've recorded this podcast on the Gatigill people of the Urination and the Wanneroer people.

We pay our respects to their elders past imprisoned and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torustrata lunder cultures,