There's just so much more that goes into it that people outside of the sport don't necessarily get, but one of the things I love about that is the structure and routine that it can provide.

You can give you so much consistency in your life.

Even though it's a struggle, you're still getting consistency and you can really lean into that.

It almost makes life a little easier in some aspects.

We live in a pretty soft time.

We need to have like the self-imposed hardship and I feel like bodybuilding can be a great vehicle for providing that self-imposed hardship when you are a bodybuilder and you actually commit to stepping on stage.

Like there's so much more sacrifice involved than just simply lifting.

And we are live.

Josh, how are you, brother?

I'm doing great man.

How are you?

I'm good, I'm good.

So we met at the Rock Town Natural show.

Was that two weeks ago now?

I guess 2 weeks.

Yeah, about two weeks ago.

And you took the overall in your division, totally killed it.

You were like, I mean, all the competitors are pretty solid.

I mean, it's pretty stacked class, but I mean, you were definitely the one you know I was in.

Shit it, man.

That was the goal all season.

I was selling my coach.

We're going to come in, no doubt, no question about it.

That's that's the goal right there, right from the beginning of all.

Season, yeah.

And that's, that's the right mindset to have.

Like when you step on stage, the judge's only job is to figure out who's going to be second.

Because you're first, you know?

And that's the way to look at it.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, what's the point of of competing at that level if you don't want to win?

You know, I mean, the goal is always to put your best on stage no matter what, and that's going to look different at any point in your life, even from day-to-day.

But the goal is to win, you know?

100 percent, 100%.

So this is your first competitive season?

Yep, my first competitive season I had four shows, 2 in the NANB F1 OCB and one USBF.

And when when was the first show?

Because the wrong time was your last show, right?

Yeah, The Rock Time was my last show.

The first show was towards the end of June 21st, I think it was Saint Louis Naturals.

Nice.

Nice.

And you did the Wisconsin warrior too, didn't you?

I did.

That's that's where I met Greg.

Yeah, So Greg, Greg works for me.

He's an awesome dude.

And he, we were sitting in the break room the other day and he's like, man, I knew that guy looked familiar.

And he pulled up a picture on his phone with you and him both on stage.

And I'm like, Yep, sure enough, same guy.

And you beat him.

So awesome.

No, I actually the meeting Greg at Wisconsin, that was a great experience.

I think that was one of my favorite photos ever taken of me, like probably top three of this season, no doubt including all the stage photos that that one of Greg and I fist pumping on stage.

One of my favorites.

Greg's a good dude, man.

I mean, he, this is the first time he's competed in that Wisconsin Warrior show, but he's volunteered there several years and he's like, man, they they do an awesome job promoting it.

So I just want to go compete in this year.

So he started prepping like January because his main show is my show next month.

But he wanted to do the.

Wisconsin show as well so he's had a crazy long prep too.

Yeah, I mean, you almost have to be, I mean, I'm I'm saying minimum 20 weeks if you just want to be absolutely dialed and that that's bare minimum because I I think by the end of my season, I was I was on week 27.

So I mean, you're you're pushing that six month mark.

I mean, it's you're in the trenches, no doubt, but that's a long.

Time, man, I mean, my, my last season was 23.

I did 5 shows and it was a 33 week prep.

And honestly by the 33rd week I was looking just worse than I was, you know, 4-5, six weeks prior because I was just so depleted.

I was crazy lean.

But it's like you sacrifice everything else when you get that depleted.

So there's definitely a point of diminishing returns with the prep length, but the same time my first.

Prep was 12.

Weeks long.

I lost 80 lbs in 12 weeks and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Man, it's just not good.

Oh, I mean, you're looking at like the most brutal pain you can experience, either in terms of the speed you have to lose the fat or the length of time that you've been losing fat.

And like, striking that perfect balance.

It's going to look different for everyone.

It's going to feel different for everyone and it's going to and it's going to it's just difficult to find that perfect in between of how fast do I want to lose the weight and how how much muscle do I want to retain.

I mean it's.

It's it's.

Yeah, and it's going to look different every year for you, for the same person too.

A.

100% So would this been your first competitive season?

How long you been lifting?

I guess going on 8 years now.

I I it's funny, I actually started lifting because I didn't want to get fat after stopping swimming in college.

So that was how I how I chose to get into lifted.

Lifting was just the my main form of exercise after college swimming.

Do you swim at all now or no?

Man, I haven't been in the competitive pool a day since I stopped in college.

Nice.

Yeah, I I never, I took like swimming lessons when I was like a little bitty kid, but man, I haven't been in a pool and eons either.

Like I, I just sink when I swim.

Like I don't, I don't do very good.

It's even tougher for bodybuilders because you just, you have that lean mass and it's it's dense tissue, it's not going to float well.

So when you started lifting as a way to not get fat, what was the the catalyst for like, OK, I'm going to actually take it to the next level and compete because a lot of people lift and it's like, I've been thinking about this a lot.

Like, how do I get people, especially now that I'm a show promoter, it's like, how do I get people to cross the threshold of lifting looking good, wanting to be healthy to like, OK, let's actually, you know, showcase this and take it to the next level and step on stage.

I'm not going to lie, man, I, I, I am not really sure.

I think it was for me, it was, I miss competing in something.

I'm such a competitive person.

If I'm going to do something, I want to be the best, you know what I mean?

So it's, I think there's a level of intrinsic motivation required.

And then also you got to find someone in the right stage of their life.

I mean, this is, this isn't easy and it you got to dedicate a lot of time to it.

So it's got to be a combination of timing and intrinsic motivation.

I think that's the key is, is just how can we keep people motivated?

How can we get people motivated to make the sport better?

Yeah, totally.

And I feel like I wrote about this in my newsletter that went out today.

It's like we live in a pretty soft time.

We need to have like the self-imposed hardship.

And I feel like bodybuilding can be a great vehicle for providing that self-imposed hardship.

Like training in and of itself is great, but like when you or a bodybuilder and you actually commit to stepping on stage, like there's so much more sacrifice involved and just simply lifting.

And that, I think is necessary in this day and age for sure.

Yeah, I, I think that's something that a lot of people outside of the sport don't necessarily understand is like, it's not just lifting.

The lifting's honestly the easiest part of, of getting ready for a show.

I mean, you, you got to add in more cardio.

You've got to change your diet on more than weekly.

Sometimes you you have to go to bed and get plenty of sleep so you're not getting carrying extra inflammation.

You probably got to mess with your water intake so you're not hiding detail and making sure you're still hydrated.

I mean, you can't be getting too little water too far out from a show.

I mean, there's just so much more that goes into it that people outside of the sport don't necessarily get.

But one of the things I love about that is the structure and routine that it can provide.

You can give you so much consistency in your life.

Even though it's a struggle, you're still getting consistency and you can really lean into that.

And it, I mean it, it just, it almost makes life a little easier in some aspects because you know what to expect on your day-to-day.

Yeah.

And I feel like when you're, especially when you're towards the end of a prep and you're depleted, like you don't have energy for anything that's unnecessary.

So like you get really good at figuring out what is just noise in your life and then you just strip that out of the equation all together.

And then once the show is over, it's like you have this new found efficiency with everything and that transcends the sport and bleeds into everything you do.

Oh, absolutely.

I, I mean, the amount of things that you had going on in your life before prep, you kind of realize what do I still want in my life and what do I no longer need in my life?

What's important to me, what's no longer important to me?

And it gives you a new appreciation for the things that you want to keep in your life.

But then it also allows you to, like you said, to cut out a lot of the noise, a lot of the unnecessary things, some of the things that might distract you from reaching goals in other areas of your life.

100% what do you what do you do for work?

What?

What's your day-to-day outside of bodybuilding?

So I work from home, I'm a regulatory affairs specialist for medical devices.

I work at a company called Bomeru.

They make in vitro diagnostics of the lab tests at hospitals.

So you're doing that You're.

Overseeing the lab test component or what?

So I basically what I do is I sit on new product development projects and give the registration requirements and regulatory design inputs for to launch and target countries.

And then my position specifically, I'll perform the registrations of those devices in the United States, European Union and.

Gotcha.

So when you work in countries all different time zones, are you pretty flexible as to how you structure your hours it?

It depends.

It's a French company, so like half of my company is working and there's what, 6-7 hours ahead of any given time in the year.

So I'll, I'll have some pretty early mornings where I might have a meeting 78 AM.

But then I also the products that I specialize in are coming out of a startup in San Jose.

So we purchased that startup and

I might have meetings at 5:00 PM now because that's 3:00 PM for them.

So it it's not odd for me to take a break in the middle of the day if I had an early meeting and then a super late meeting, take a break in the middle of the day and I'm still working the amount of time that I'm supposed to.

Did you start doing that right out of school?

Yeah, it's my first job out of school, second position within the company, but but same company since I've been out of school.

And you like it, I take it?

Yeah, they give me every other Friday off as long as I work the right amount of hours.

Pretty good benefits outside that.

Every other Friday?

Man, that's a golden handcuff.

It'll it'll be hard to find that elsewhere.

It will.

It will.

And you're 29, right if I remember correctly.

Yeah, I just turned 29 at the end of June.

29 man, totally killing it on stage like you got a you got a good future in the sport.

If you want to just stick with it man.

Are you planning on sticking with it?

Oh absolutely, I'm not.

I mean, I've got a about a five month offseason plan, then back into prep, hopefully try to get some good size, make my pro debut next year, probably around the same timing as this year.

Going to look for shows in probably around June, July.

Gonna get you on that world stage man.

I don't know about that.

Yeah, I'd like to get a little bit more size than I think 5 months could could do.

Before that stage weight.

I was 164 on stage at Rocktown Naturals.

Nice.

I mean it, that was definitely the best look I brought all season.

In my first show I was 161 but I I could have been a lot fuller.

That Wisconsin Warrior show 3 weeks later I was probably a bit too full but still still at 164 but lost a little bit of definition.

And then I actually ended up doing 3 shows back-to-back to back, so all three weekends in a row.

And that last week my coach was like, man, you're going to have to train a little bit harder than you would on a normal peak week because the risk of you just going waking up flat 1 morning is so high with the decreased intensity.

Yeah, it's tough when you get peak weeks back-to-back to back.

I always like having them in a pretty condensed window.

But ideally like every other weekend, like every two weeks have a show that that's kind of like a good sweet spot.

But when they're every weekend, man, like peak week manipulation is just it just compounds and by the end of it you're like, man, I need some hard training sessions in.

Yeah, I mean, though, I mean, the last thing that you wanted, even mentally, the last thing you want to do is just wake up 1 morning and and not get that dopamine rush.

Because I think that's one of the most motivating things about the sport and being in prep.

And one of the things that keeps you going is you can see changes almost daily, sometimes depending on what phase of your diet or your prep you're in and getting that dopamine rush first thing in the morning when you wake up, you see some new lines, some new definition.

It just really keeps you going.

And it it can feel you'll fuel you for like probably the first half of your day until you realize, man, I'm depleted.

100% man.

So if you were competing AT161164, what was your starting weights, you know going into the?

Prep at the peak of my bulk I was 184.

By the end of like my pre prep phase where I was just trying to cut out a little bit of the excess water, I'd see what my true weight was about 181.

So I mean, it was A at my lowest, it was about a 25 LB swing from absolute top end, absolute lowest.

That's a pretty healthy window though.

I mean, I've done like I've done crazy.

You know, dirty books, for lack of a better term.

My first show when I lost those 80 lbs in 12 weeks I got bulked up to 2:30 and then competed at like 151 or something crazy.

Oh man.

Not good.

And then since then, I've always tried to just keep it within a tighter window.

I'm like 180 right now.

And I'd gotten up to 200 at the end of my last building phase.

And I'm just like, like I'm how tall are you going?

About the same height, Right.

Like 5758.

Yep.

Yeah.

So like 200 lbs at our height.

It's just not really necessary.

Oh man, that's that's real.

Heavy and and my heaviest I was, I was two O 8 and man, I was not happy with the way I looked.

I was not healthy.

It was it was that's that's what's kind of started my like motivation like man, I could I really want to lose some weight.

We'll see what happens.

So I started like my first cut on my own before even having a coach.

And that's how I kind of got into the sport was some a buddy.

Actually, he's my teammate now.

He came up to me at the gym.

He's like, man, have you ever thought about competing?

And I was like, you know, I've thought about it, but I never really thought it was something I had the discipline for.

I've never dieted in my life.

I, I don't know if I can do that extreme of dieting.

And he's like, well, let me just connect you with my coach.

We'll, we'll, he'll, he'll talk to you and we'll see what, what, what you guys work out.

And that, that was it.

That was end game.

I hired him a week later after my sister's wedding.

I got got back in town and started started going to work.

Nice man.

So let's peel the curtain back on the nuts and bolts of your prep.

Like, what did you do nutritionally?

What was your training looking like?

Like how did you structure it all?

So I actually had kind of like a a typical training schedule.

I was lifting in the morning, fasted and doing cardio in the afternoon just because that's what I had gotten so used to mentally.

My coach and I decided from the mental perspective, we don't want to change my routine until I go back into an offseason because I mean, when you're going into prep, you, you crave consistency.

I mean, that's, that's what's going to keep you going more than anything.

So we kept that schedule going during this prep where I was lifting in the morning.

I prefer that man.

Like training fasted in my opinion is way better than doing at the end of a work day or like having a whole bunch of food in your system.

Like I always prefer training fasting.

No, I, that's how I kind of started and that's why I was doing that during going into this prep.

But man, you just get such good pumps after having about four meals and maybe a snack in you like like some, some cream of rice that you just get such a better pump.

And well, that's one of the things that I noticed the most was towards the end of prep when you're so depleted, you really are just chasing a pump in your workout because it they are fleeting.

They are, they are definitely fleeting.

What would you do?

Like when you were at your, you know, peak offseason, what was your caloric intake looking like then?

I'm going to be honest with you man, I don't even track my own macros.

My coach just tells me what to eat.

I cook it and I eat it and we make adjustments based off of check insurance.

I'll send photos in my symmetry poses, my relaxed positions, and he'll he'll zoom in on the photos, check for details and we'll track my fasted weight every morning and we'll go from there.

Make to make adjustments, either adding food, taking food away, adjusting macros.

But I I don't know the exact numbers one bit, not going to lie to you.

He's just sending you like a meal plan every week basically.

Pretty much, yeah.

And if, if I have an issue with something or if I'm having any digestive issues, I let him know and, and we make adjustments.

We have a really close relationship.

He's he's more like a brother to me than a coach most of the time.

So it's it's yeah, that's what you want.

Especially when you're when you're digging deep, getting ready for a show like you, you need people like that in your corner.

So to have that in your coaches, it's special.

Totally, totally.

So what what was like prior to peak week manipulations?

What was a typical day of eating like?

You know, as you're getting deeper and deeper into your prep.

You know, we would do.

So during prep, we stick to five meals, try to space it out evenly throughout my, my awake hours.

But every meal you get a little bit of carb, protein and beginning and end of day, try to get a little bit more fats than those meals Got you.

But like, during depression, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But we, we take away the carbs for a, for a little bit to really dig out those of those glute lines.

That's, that's the worst part, man.

That that depletion where you're forcing your body, like coming, going into ketosis is brutal.

Once you're there, it's a little easier.

You again, you get that routine, you know what to expect.

But going into ketosis, man, it gets you.

Yeah, that initial little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I haven't had carbs in over a decade, but it's like different like when you're in a prep, like I've got a lot of people, I've got a client right now that's that I just started working with and he's in the middle of his prep season and he's, you know, going traditional bodybuilding route with carbs and he wasn't happy with that.

So now I was wanting to like go keto for at the last of it.

But like when you're already depleted and you're trying to get fat adapted mid prep, like that's that's hard, man.

It's brutal.

Yeah, it I, it's different for sure, because now instead of getting like your, your Jasmine rice like you're used to getting, now your carbs are coming from greens and you're like, OK, it's a little bit more satiating just because of the, the amount of greens that you can get and still get so few carbs.

But man, it just hits you like a ton of bricks.

About like 3 PMI was ready for bed and that was it was brutal.

What was your like psychological state and just cognition in general?

Like what was your like mental acuity like as you get towards the last, you know, 4-6 weeks of prep?

Are you walking around kind of like zombie mode?

There were a couple weeks in there where I was where I was like a walking zombie.

I was really, I was really happy.

I had no one.

People would tell me, man, your face looks skinny, you look tired.

But I didn't get that, that kind of prep face where your eyes start sinking in.

I was really fortunate that that did not happen, but it's pretty common to see someone one week where their eyes just look sunken and they look like a zombie for sure.

But there may be two weeks in there where I just had worse brain fog than normal.

I mean, during prep, you're going to have a little bit of brain fog regardless.

It's that's just the nature of it.

You're you're not going to be losing weight the way that you have to and not have at least slight cognitive effects.

It's interesting too.

Like when you're super depleted, I mean kind of like I said earlier, like you just you don't have a lot of excess energy.

So you get really efficient at how you structure your day and you start mapping out everything that you have to do that day and you don't like take any extra steps like you.

Figure out what.

All the things you got to pick up, what all the things you got to do, and you just start like my whole day's thought process is like, how can I check off all these things in the most efficient manner possible so that I'm not doing any extra expenditure beyond what's necessary?

Yeah, I mean, there just comes a point in your day when you don't have any energy to do anything else other than what you need to do.

And if it's something that's unplanned, it can throw you off so bad.

I remember there was one day I, it was the worst day, my prep by far.

I think I had like 4 meetings for work planned.

Thankfully 2 of them ended up getting cancelled.

But then it's like your day's changed now.

So mentally how do you adjust to that?

And then I don't know, maybe just the smallest changes to your schedule can throw you off mentally so much.

So it's trying to figure out what do I need to do to stay level headed because just the smallest things can also set you off at the same time, right?

Like you, your fuse is a lot shorter and like, it's always like that.

Oh, you're walking out of the house in your hoodie pocket gets caught on the door knob and it's, it's just the last straw.

Things like that.

I mean, it's you see memes about it on Instagram and stuff, but it they do, they really do.

It sets you off a little bit.

Yeah, it's, I don't know, like with my last prep, I try to just really become like super stoic because like I got my wife, we had a, my, my 3 year old saying it was like a year and a half at the time.

And I didn't want to like blow up on any of them or like, well, because in, in preps prior when I was just her and I like, I would just be mean, man, not mean towards her, but just like super short, super irritable and just unpleasant.

And like my whole goal with this last prep was like, I want to go through this and still be a pleasant human throughout the entire ordeal.

And I feel like I accomplished that pretty well.

But man, I just had to like let go and surrender and be like, all right, I'm just being chill because most competitors, like, I mean, you're just, you're just depleted.

You got a short straw.

And like anything sets you off and like, you put the hoodie on to work out and like anybody screws around with you, anybody tries to talk to you while you're training, It's like you just have this, you know, get out of my sight, face on at all times, you know?

Yeah, I there were actually a couple days where I wasn't even in a bad mood.

I just didn't want to talk to anyone while I was working out.

So I, I put on a on an unhappy face while I was at the gym just so I could get in, get my workout done without.

I mean, I, I just didn't want to be bothered.

I, I want to get my work.

Like you said, you know what you need to do for the day.

You know how much energy you have.

You just want to get your stuff done in the order that you haven't done in the amount of time you have set set aside and, and anything that throws that off.

I mean, not only does it throw off like your physical game because now your day looks a little different, but mentally adjusting to those changes it.

I think that's probably the hardest part is the mental aspect of dealing with.

I mean, it's just life.

You still have to live your life.

There are things that happen.

There are things you need to to get done so.

It's it's a physical sport in a sense for sure, but at the end of the day man, it's definitely more so a mental sport than not I think.

Absolutely.

And and I think the mental aspect is just so much harder trying to adapt and figure out what's going on in in your day and like life just happens and you you got to roll with it.

And it's not always the easiest thing to do without, without losing it a little bit, either breaking down or or having a short fuse.

I mean, it's the emotions go a little crazy.

I mean, and with the hormonal changes from the physical aspect too, it's going to heighten your emotions even more.

Did you get any blood work drawn throughout your prep to see kind of what your hormone markers were doing?

So I've got my blood work done going into prep to see what kind of the baseline was.

I mean, they're going to be your absolute highest when you're peak bulk, but.

What was your?

Testosterone, then you remember.

It was in the mid 5 hundreds.

Yeah.

So I mean healthy level, not insanely high, not not even the the highest end.

I think I got my blood drawn at

like 9:00 AM and I was up at 4:00 AM.

So it's going to be slightly lower than the highest it would have been.

Mine's never.

Had either man like I'm typically between 400 and 600 is kind of like my baseline average.

So that's where that my one of the things that I was most interested in was was my estrogen levels were about 200.

So right at that top end of where it should be.

So that's something that I kind of wanted to, I'll probably get my blood drawn in a couple weeks.

I mean working for the company I work for, we have an on site clinic.

So I can just man.

Yeah, I make an appointment there and I and I show up on the day where I go into the office and and they'll take care of me and they use our own products.

So you can't complain one bit about that.

So you haven't gotten a drawn since that initial draw prior to the prep starting then.

Correct.

But I mean, you can just tell if you're in tune with your body, you know kind of what's happening.

You don't know the exact numbers, but you're like, oh man, my, my hormones are changing right now.

And with the amount of fats that you're consuming too, that's going to play a role.

100% ma'am, I think.

So mine mine at the end of my 33 week prep I got labs drawn in my testosterone at that point.

That was when I was 3.9% body fat so like way below healthy range.

But my testosterone then was 87 or 89 something crazy low.

Yeah, I mean, it's just at the floor at the absolute lowest it can be.

And I, I think that's one of the trickiest things that people need to, to look out for in the sport is how long can you stay at that level before causing permanent damage?

And what are you going to do immediately afterwards to, to get your body healthy again?

Because you, you got to, you got to, you got to drive your hormones back up.

And if you want to compete naturally, you you have to manage your hormones properly.

That's why I'm such a big fan of like, taking a pretty significant offseason between competitive cycles.

So like I did my shows in 23 and I'm not going to compete again until 27.

And I'll typically take, you know, at least two, if not three or four years off in between shows because man, like naturally it's, it's hard to like people that are running cycles year round.

Like they can keep those, those levels elevated.

But if you're natural, you're going to see that massive drop in metabolic rate, hormone function, and it takes longer to build muscle and it takes to lose fat.

So if you're doing that naturally, you got to give yourself ample time to build the muscle.

Yeah, and that's actually something that my coach and I talked about kind of a game plan for the future is after this next season, taking a five month offseason, going back into prep, I'm thinking about taking a full 2 years off, not only just to stay healthy for an extended period, but really to put on some sizes.

Like you say, it just takes longer to put on muscle than it does to lose fat, so.

If you think.

About it, I mean, a lot of people compete every year and unfortunately a lot of the different federations push competitors to compete every year because they're getting, you know, membership dues and things like that.

But if you're natural and you're taking, you know, 20 plus weeks to, to prep or six months to prep, that's half the year right there.

Then you get another three months of reverse dying to kind of return to a stable baseline.

That's nine months out of the year.

And if you go right back into another prep shorter thereafter, I mean, you're spending more time in a prep than in a build and you're, you're going to wind up looking worse and worse every year.

Yeah, and not only that, but mentally it's just going to become exhausting too.

I mean, even on show day, you might be feeling a little better because you got to you either carved up or you, you refilled somehow.

So you're just going to feel a little better.

But so day is exhausting in itself.

And it like just the, the mental toll it takes to stay focused and to do what you need to do.

And, and who knows how long you're going to get held on stage.

I mean, every show I've, I compete in classic.

So every show I've done, classic has been the largest class in in the show.

I mean, they're, they could hold you out there for 30 minutes, you never know.

I was looking at some, I was filming like a posing tutorial the other day and I pulled up some footage from worlds in 23 when I when I did worlds and they had, I was in the lightweight class for bodybuilding on the professional class and they had us out there for 57 minutes, dude, almost an hour on stage like.

It's just absolutely brutal.

Yeah, you're were you.

I don't.

I don't know who could be out there that long and not start sweating their tan off.

I wasn't swiping my tan off, but it was crazy 'cause there was like there was almost 40 competitors in the lightweight class.

So they broke it up into two groups.

And the one group was, you know, back, not backstage, but behind the frontline.

And you know, a lot of people when they're not center, center line, they wind up relaxing.

But I'm like, man, if I'm on stage, I'm being judged whether I'm frontline or not.

So I relax like 20 minutes before I ever even get to go out and pose for the judges.

So like man, I was.

Wrecked after that.

How your shoulders feel after that?

Dude, it was.

It was.

It was.

Rough.

I mean, 57 minutes on stage is double whatever I've done in the past.

I mean, it was, but I'll tell you what, one thing I did in preparation for that is I would do like one minute holds of each pose every single day.

Like practice holding the poses and doing those.

Holds suck but man they make a big difference when you're on stage.

Oh yeah, the the conditioning that you need to present yourself well and just be prepared for however long they could hold you on stage.

You have to practice, practice, practice.

You got to get those holds in, you got to get, well, number one, you got to make sure you can do the poses and find what looks best for you.

And that takes a lot of playing around in itself.

And you might even have multiple coaches looking at you to to perfect getting into the pose itself.

But then holding it is another it's it's just another game.

I mean the the conditioning, you need to do that and not just be out there drenched.

Your, your posing was on point man.

Like I mean, you had the, the conditioning and the shape and symmetry and everything for sure, but like your posing was also very well done.

Did you have a posing coach separate from your nutrition coach or one of the same?

I appreciate it, but yeah, I had.

So I had a separate posing coach.

My coach competes in, in bodybuilding and he was really straightforward with me and he was like, you can pose with me as much as you want.

I'll tell you what I see, I'll correct you.

But if you want to be great and classic, I think you need to get a classic posing coach.

So, so he helped me, connected me with a classic posing coach.

So I have a separate posing coach and my main prep coach.

Nice.

Yeah.

A lot of people, they don't give posing the time it's due, man.

But like, it's just a shame.

Like you get your nutrition dialed in, you get your training dialed in, you're doing your cardio consistently.

You like, you lose all this weight, you get absolutely diced.

And if you can't showcase it for that, you know, few minutes that you're on stage, it's like, why in the world would that be your stumbling block?

Like, yeah.

I mean, you can be the biggest, most muscular guy on that stage.

You could have the best shape and just have the genetics to destroy everyone on that stage, but if you can't present as well as someone else, they're probably going to place better than you.

Yep.

100% you got to be able not only do you have to know how to show off your own physique, you you can watch posing videos and learn how to hit a pose, but can you hit the pose the best way for your body is a totally different game.

And I I'm I'm one of the biggest pieces of advice I could give to anyone.

Find a coach, whether that's for your nutrition.

You could have your nutrition dialed in on your own, but having a coach will help because if something goes wrong, you need to make changes.

It's a lot easier to not have to think about that as much yourself when you're in prep.

And then the other aspect is you got to have eyes on you when you're posing because people are going to see different things.

They're going to be looking at you from the perspective of a judge and they're going to tell you what they see, what needs to change, and help you play around with it a little bit to make sure that you're nailing those poses exactly the way you need to for your physique.

Totally.

Are you going to do open bodybuilding at some point too or stick with classic?

My coach and I have talked about a little bit it, we don't have a game plan set for sure, but it's it's it's not totally out of the picture.

I really love classic.

I love the posing.

Yeah, it's you get a little bit artistic with it sometimes and especially like with the routines and then with bodybuilding you get you get to be a little bit more aggressive, have a little bit not necessarily more fun, but a different type of fun on stage with the posing, but.

We've talked about April One 50s and bodybuilding.

Man, you'd be even a little bit leaner.

Oh, that's, that's tough, man.

I so I think it's a it's a possibility for next season, but it's definitely going to happen at some point in the future.

Nice.

You should definitely do both.

I mean, they, they, they translate pretty well.

Like I've never done men's physique, but I've done classic and bodybuilding and I like them both for for what they are.

And I mean, there's a lot of similarities.

I mean, and the dead BNBF, like most natural federations, like you're able to have classic esque poses in open bodybuilding.

And it's like favorable to some extent because like natural bodybuilding is more classic by default.

I mean, you're not taking, you're not ruling out of your minds.

You're not carrying 300 lbs of lean tissue on the stage.

I mean, you look more classic by definition, yeah.

I mean, you just you don't get that same extent of mass monster.

You're definitely going to have guys on that stage that are way bigger than you at some point that you would consider a mass monster.

But it's not the same and natural like you said, you're just going to carry a more classic shape if you're conditioned the way you need to be.

Totally what what's motivated you to stay natural, man?

Like there's a there's a big push now, especially with like TRTHRT taking everything like not even necessary from a performance enhancing drug standpoint, but just to like, I mean with you having 500 some odd total testosterone, like you walk into any of the clinics on the street corners now that Oh yeah.

Give me a prescription.

Yeah, Yeah.

No, I think there are just so many.

I don't want to say this in a bad way.

I think that there's a problem in our country where where doctors will write you a prescription when you could manage these things with lifestyle changes and and hormone levels being one of them.

If, if your diet is locked in or you're eating healthy even ninety, 8090% of the time, you're going to see a massive increase in your health.

I mean, if I can control something through diet and food, and I mean, don't get me wrong, I love food.

I love going out trying a new restaurant.

But if you don't do that every night and you, you cook at home, you manage your sodium intake, you, you get your macros locked down a little bit.

You're just going to notice such huge differences in your health overall that you won't even need to go to a doctor for twice like half as many times a year as you would normally go.

I, I mean, outside of getting my annual knocked on wood, I haven't had to go to a doctor for a real issue in, in a, in a couple of years now.

Just trying to eat healthier, manage things through my diet.

And I mean, anytime you're putting out excess chemicals in your body, your metabolism is going to be affected.

So I think it's just an overall health push in my head that if I can manage these things on my own through my diet, I can stay healthier and have more longevity both in life and in the sport of bodybuilding.

I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, it's, it's longevity that we're looking for, right?

That's, that's, that's one of the, the main goals is how can we enjoy life and live life to our fullest, but do it for a longer period of time?

Yeah, totally agree, man.

I feel like you look at the people that are at the top of the heap and natural bodybuilding that are older.

Like look at Jeff Alberts, you know, he's like 54 years old or something crazy.

Looks phenomenal.

And it's just because of his compounded actions over his lifetime, you know, like he's doing all the right things, he's eating the right foods, he's training correctly, you know, preventing injury.

It's like that, like he'll never be, you know, the size of Phil Heath, but he's going to be much healthier in the long run.

He's still going to be doing it long after Phil's retired, which he has.

It's like that's, that's what I'm excited about.

Like I want to be the guy that's freaking competing in the Master 60 plus category and also still doing Open because I look good enough to compete and open, you know?

Absolutely.

I mean, if you can carry that high of a level of health in the year 50 sixties, I mean, like in the US alone, you're starting to see health declines for, for men in their late 30s now, but maybe even mid 30s, like serious health issues starting to occur earlier and earlier.

I mean, I, I think it's, it's a reflection of how little education we're given in schools on nutrition and and Wellness in general.

I mean, I'm sure you took health classes in school, but the knowledge that you have now, like the base of that knowledge did not come from that education in school That came from you, You having a motivation to get that that education on your own.

Yeah, people got to take initiative in their health.

I mean, they just, you know, look to their primary care doc.

It's like no one's going to care much about your health as you are.

So like you've got to owner take ownership in that and take the sacrifice or do whatever you got to do to make that a priority because we're only given we're only blessed with one body.

Like you got 11 rodeo and it's like you got to you got to capitalize.

You want to last.

More than 8 seconds, man.

Yeah, man, for sure.

It's just sad because like I see so many people and a lot of people, like I get accused of taking steroids all the time on Twitter especially.

They're really brutal on Twitter.

But it's like people have this misconception about what the human body is truly capable of when all the excuses are removed.

And it's like, we can do such amazing things naturally if you've got the right mentality, you got the right daily habits and routines, and you let that compound over enough time.

It's like people sell themselves short far too easily.

But I mean, like, natural bodybuilding is a great illustration for what's possible if you play the long game and you do it right.

Absolutely.

And, and I think that's one of the things that that's most exciting about the sport of natural bodybuilding that it doesn't get enough appreciation for is.

The people that compete as natural bodybuilders are going to be some of the healthiest people walking this Earth and they're offseason and the on season, like we talked about you, you're going to have some, some hormonal changes and, and your body's definitely not performing at its absolute peak, but that's going to be when you're losing fat anytime your body's going to have to adjust continuously.

But in in their offseason, natural bodybuilders will be some of the healthiest people walking this planet.

Yeah, I totally agree.

And I feel like, you know, people give Flack sometimes natural bodybuilders because it's like, oh, you know, your when your testosterone is that low, when you're that lean, it's obviously not healthy.

And and they're right, it's not healthy from an optimal standpoint.

But I would argue that the psychological benefit in health that comes from that outweighs the negatives.

Like it's a net positive from a overall health standpoint when you factor that into the equation.

Yeah, and I think during Prep, you get the opportunity to learn even more about your health.

Your body is the most sensitive it will be to anything you consume.

So you can learn what things your body likes and dislikes and maybe make changes that can optimize your health coming out of Prep too.

Like if there are foods that you you may have tried to incorporate in your prep that your body doesn't respond to well when you're that sensitive, maybe you could carry even less inflammation during your offseason if you avoid that food completely.

Yeah, being being that depleted is kind of like being a type 1 diabetic.

Like you can eat something and then know immediately how it responds in your body from a glucose standpoint.

It's kind of the same thing when you're that depleted.

It's like, like I could eat half of an avocado and tell you exactly how my body responds to it within 30 minutes.

And like, I would never have had that inside had I not gone through a prep, you know?

Exactly.

I, I mean, you get to learn so much about your body, about life, about what drives you, about what you value.

I mean, there's just so much net positive from going through that self-inflicted hardship and you, you come out mentally tougher, but you come out smarter about yourself.

You value different things in life.

You value things more.

You might cut something out completely.

It's it.

There's just so much net positive from it that unless you experience it, it's really kind of hard to put into perspective.

It is.

It is.

You got a girlfriend, wife or you do all this solo?

Solo I one bedroom apartment St.

Louis MO single.

That that's probably, I don't know, like I, I've done preps before I met my wife and then I've done preps when we were dating and now married.

And it's like now I feel lucky because she literally like I give her my macros and she'll cook all my meals, which is super handy.

But man, it's, it's tough when you've got other people like in your innermost circle, like in your home and you're going through a prep because it's it's kind of a selfish sport in a lot of ways.

And you got to have people that are 100% on board with it for that time period for sure.

It's almost like raising a kid.

I mean, it takes a village.

I mean, I know that's like a common anecdote for for raising a baby, but when you're a truck, you're kind of a baby.

You, you, like you said, you're a little selfish.

You got to do what's right for you.

Otherwise it can throw off your entire prep your entire season.

So you got to prioritize yourself a lot more than you would throughout the rest of the year.

Like for your with your meal timing, for example, I I would tell my family I can't go out to dinner with you at this restaurant.

However, if you eat at home or if you're eating at home, I eat at this time.

I can bring my food and if you're eating, I'll eat with you so we can still share a meal together.

I just can't eat what you're eating and I can't go out to a restaurant because I I can't handle the temptation.

I don't want to be sitting there watching people eat good food and I can't bring my own food and obviously so.

Now I'm that weird guy that has been known to bring Tupperware's into restaurants.

You know, like sometimes.

Which restaurants are letting you do that?

Man, I need to find those places and tell my family to go there.

Well, I don't know, maybe it's the look I've got on my face when they come up and ask me what I'm eating.

I'm like, man, I'm in, I'm in prep right now.

I just like explain it to them, I guess, and they understanding.

But yeah, it's a it's a sacrifice for sure, man.

But I feel like just as in prep, you know, it's not obviously the epitome of health, but the offseason is for natural athletes.

I feel like in prep is obviously very selfish for that acute period of time.

But like, the macro impact of this lifestyle is incredibly selfless, because taking care of your own body and physical well-being allows you to contribute more to those around you in a way that wouldn't be possible if this wasn't made a priority.

Oh, absolutely.

I think one of the things that I, I tried to describe it to, to one of my friends that was interested in competing, he hasn't pulled the trigger yet, but I'm, I'm pushing them a little bit.

I told him during my offseason, I wake up every single day motivated with energy, ready to take on anything.

And it's a completely different life than when you're in prep because, yeah, you can change your meal timing a little bit.

It's not going to have as much of an effect.

But you're also probably eating 6-7 times a day in your offseason.

So it's, I mean, your timing isn't going to be quite as important.

You're still getting plenty of nutrients, but you can do so much more when you have that extra energy and you wake up feeling good because you know what it's like to not have that energy.

And you're like, oh, I feel great.

I can take on anything, anything.

What do you need?

I can help you.

I've got plenty of time, plenty of energy.

Let's let's let's get it done.

Yeah, 100%.

Ma'am, what was your?

So you did the four shows this season where you pretty much dialed in post show nutrition wise after the first three shows and then kind of had a celebratory meal after this last one?

Or had you structure then?

So I did 1 celebratory meal after the first show.

First time ever competing and I had three weeks in between so I did.

I went to Texas Roadhouse with my family, went a little crazy, lost a little bit of definition, took about a full week to recover from it in terms of of getting the getting all the definition back, losing the inflammation from the sodium intake.

Then after the second, so the second show, I won my first pro card in the USPF.

So I had a little bit of a celebration after that.

Again, it took about five days recover from that one because I, I was like, I got a show next week and can't be that bad.

And then after that third show, I didn't do any sort of celebration.

I was like, last show coming up, WNBF pro card on the line, got to stay focused, stay locked in.

And then I went to the Purple cow after getting the WNBF pro card and they have an Elvis sandwich on their kids menu.

So like the fried bananas with peanut butter and honey and I had them make that on a burger bun and had a a 1 LB of ground beef in between that sandwich.

Nice, nice.

How much did your weight jump up after that?

I went up 5 lbs that day after and that included like the drive home.

Yeah, but I mean, I ate a lot of sweet potato fries and French fries as well and then went down 2 lbs over the next day.

So I held on to about 3 lbs.

But I went straight into my diet, eating a lot more food each meal, 5 meals a day still.

And then honestly, two days later I texted my coach at about 10 PMI was like, man, I'm staying up later because I'm not lifting in the morning.

So I'm waking up later.

I'm starving.

Like is it can I get us?

Can I, can we add the 6th meal now?

Because I, I am and metabolism ramps up.

Man, you just ravenous.

Oh my gosh, I've, I can't, I felt more hungry that night than I did during my entire prep.

I was like, we, we got to do something.

I can't feel like this every night because I mean, you do, you do gain a lot of mental toughness when you're hungry.

You learn to, to combat it.

You're like, you either drink some water, chew some gum.

You you find something that you can do that keeps you from from breaking down and cheating on your on your meal plan.

My hack is I'll go to Sonic and I'll get like their big old cup of ice and then I'll get some like a stir water enhancer like Mio or something like that and squirt it in there and just eat that ice.

That's like my hunger hack when I'm deep in prep.

Oh man that Sonic's ice is so good.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

Man I chew so much gum now it's it's ridiculous.

I have like 4 different flavors sitting on the counter.

I'm like I.

Couldn't, I couldn't do anymore.

I had to give up gum because I become like a chain chewer man.

Like I was just addicted to gum and I would go through four or five packs a day and I'm like, this is obnoxious.

I can't do, I can't just can't do gum anymore.

That's about where I'm at right now.

I'm not going to lie to you.

That's a lot of gum.

Yeah, I'm, I'm travelling this week with my family, going on vacation.

So I'm, I'm my goal is to only pack a couple packs of gum and not go buy any while I'm out.

So that would kind of break the habit a little bit.

Do you feel like the reverse diet post show, you know, phase is more taxing or less taxing than the prep itself?

Because I feel like a lot of competitors, first time competitors especially they'll, you know, stay on top of their nutrition for the most part, get dialed in.

But then after that show is over and they don't have that like tangible goal on the calendar, it's like very easy for them to totally go off the rails, put on more weight than they desire and it just beating themselves up internally.

You know, mentally, I think it is definitely hard.

Like when you're in prep, you know, like you got that show coming up.

You know that you cannot cheat on your diet or it will affect the way that you look on stage and in the in your reverse diet, like you said, you don't have a show coming up.

There's no sort of tangible goal.

You just want to try to to gain weight slowly and healthfully and get your body back functioning essentially as perfect as can be so that you can potentially put on muscle if that's your goal or, or stay sort of that baseline, whatever your goal is.

But putting on weight slowly and in control is so hard to do.

You like, you know, you don't have that show coming up.

So yeah, if you cheat, it's not going to have the same effect.

But still, it's, it could cause a lot of harm to your body because you're absorbing those potentially unhealthy nutrients that that you don't want yet because your body is still super sensitive until you've what I think it could be up up to three months even for a reverse to get rid of that sensitivity you had during prep to like to sodium, to carbs, to fats, whatever whatever macronutrient or micronutrient it may be that your body responds to the most.

You you got to really ease into it because your body is still absorbing everything.

Yeah, when I was coming out of my last prep, like I was like super dialed in for like two or three months.

And there's like this Goldilock phase that I think last about two months where you can kind of get away with a lot nutrition that you probably shouldn't be as aggressive on.

But it doesn't really instantaneously get reflected in your physique.

As long as you're not just totally going off the deep end and you like fill out, you look jacked, you got energy.

But like that only lasts for a few, you know, brief periods of time and that after that, if you continue those habits, like it's just going to spill over and you're going to look terrible afterwards.

So you got to like hone in on that.

So I was like pretty well dialed for like the next two or three months, any of the post show.

And I kept my nutrition quality totally on point, but I just was ravenous, man.

My metabolism was through the roof, so I was eating like 6000 calories of just 100% grass finished beef, you know, like nothing, nothing crazy, just like really high quality stuff, but like a ton of it.

That's what I that's why I got up to 200 lbs and I'm like, OK, I probably don't need 6000 calories of beef everyday, you know?

Yeah, I one of the things that I've been trying to keep in my mind to keep me level headed and not go off the deep end is your prep is a reflection of your offseason.

So you can only achieve the best look possible during your prep that you gave yourself the ability to do during your offseason.

Like if you're dirty in your offseason, you gain too much weight, you might have a little extra skin on your stomach and that's going to show on stage or it's going to be that much more grueling of a prep.

If you put on a little bit too much weight and you have more fat to lose, it's going to take a larger toll on your body both mentally and physically.

You're going to have a little bit less energy and it's going to be you're going to have to be in prep a little longer.

So that's, that's what I'm trying to keep in my head is OK, if I want to look my absolute best in my shows next year, I want to be locked into my offseason too.

And yeah, I can when my body's less sensitive, I'll be able to go off diet a little more often or eat a couple extra bites of, of whatever food is in my meal plan and it won't have this profound of an effect.

But right now, like your body's just going to absorb everything.

So if you, if you do that 6000 calories of ground beef, even though it's super clean, super healthy and it's good for you, it's still going to have an impact because you're holding on to those nutrients because your body's still kind of in that, OK, I'm not being starved anymore, but I'm going to hold on to these nutrients because I don't know if I'm going to be starved again.

Totally.

Totally.

And I feel like to like you're a professional athlete now, man.

And I feel like when I got that pro card, it's OK.

It just changed the way you think.

It's OK if I'm a professional athlete.

I need to be conducting myself as a professional athlete and that means not eating like an ass year round.

Oh, absolutely.

I mean, it's your, your prep is going to be a reflection of your offseason, regardless of you're a pro or not.

If you want to get to a pro level, which I don't even like, I, I still doesn't feel real to me.

I, I, I don't know if there's just like I'm going to wake up 1 morning and I'm going to be like, man, I'm a pro athlete.

It's still kind of, it's surreal really.

But I think it again, it's that intrinsic motivation is I want to look my absolute best and in order to do that I got to be at my best even when I'm I don't have a show on plan yet.

Yeah, 100% man, it's you against you.

And I honestly professional aspect of it like like people that are competing for the first time that I've had this, this goal of getting a pro card, getting a pro card, but then you actually get a pro card doesn't like change anything.

I mean, it can change your psychology around it depending on what approach you take, but it's like there's not any really money in the sport of natural bodybuilding.

So it's like you're doing this for money.

It's like this is a vehicle that you can leverage to be the best version of yourself.

And you can do that whether you're an amateur or a pro.

Being a pro just allows you to do it against a higher caliber athletes as a competitor.

But it's like you got to have that innate desire to just perform at your peak all the time, year round, no questions asked, regardless, You know, that's the key.

Yeah, it's that you show up and do your best and everything that you do.

And you can ask more from yourself, but you need to make sure that you're capable of showing up and being your best.

And if you don't have that in in the back of your head when you're making these decisions, like, oh, I'm going to go grab this off the shelf at the supermarket.

I mean, then it's going to show on stage.

You got to have that in your head year round.

And that that's what it is just in everything that you do show up and be your best because it's going to it's going to play an impact, have an impact.

100%, ma'am.

So tentatively you're going to compete again in 2026 and then 2028 maybe.

Yeah, that's the plan as of now.

The two years off is like we talked about just get my body really healthy for an extended period and then try to pack on some size that you.

I mean, I think that's one of the cool things about the sport is like the jump from the amateur to the pro level is not just like, oh, you're not just going to the next level.

It is a massive jump.

If you wish to place at the pro level, you have to bring your A game, absolutely.

And you have to be bigger and better than you ever thought you could be if you want to place.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, man.

Like when I did worlds, it's just like a whole another caliber.

Like you go to an amateur show and you might have some guys with great genetics.

They have some like guys that are super condition.

You may guys have some guys that are like just jacked out of their minds but maybe not lean enough.

Whereas like on the the world stage, it's like that's literally the best in the entire world.

Like nobody on that stage is lacking condition.

Like that's not an excuse there.

Yeah, these guys are bringing the best package they could possibly bring every single show they show up to.

And I mean, and you're, you're looking at guys that could be in prep.

They might be prepping for eight months because they've been doing this for so long.

They know exactly what their body needs.

They have the perfect formula and and they know how to make the tweaks to their formula from year to year, make the adjustments quickly so that they are as conditioned as could possibly be, as lean as they could possibly be and still make it on that stage and nail their posing.

And yeah, I mean, you're truly competing against guys that have little to no weakness when you get to the to the world's level.

And making that jump from from amateur to Pro is is no small thing like you.

You have to put in the work to do that.

Absolutely.

Real quick about training.

How do you structure your training?

You pretty much, you know, old school simple compound movements like how, how do you have that structure?

So pretty old school on the splits, you know, hit everything once a week based on judges feedback.

I've tried to throw throw in a little bit extra like maybe hit hit my quads a little bit on my handy and glute day, hit my side delts 2 three times a week instead of just on shoulder day.

But no, I I really try to focus on staying healthy, protecting my joints, but still targeting individual muscles.

So it ends up being a lot of plate loaded machines with just absolutely insane amounts of weight because I mean, if you're doing a plate loaded machine, you're isolating the muscle that that machine supposed to hit and you're protecting your joints a little bit than if you were just doing free weights.

But obviously you can't totally escape like dumbbells and and and exercise and isometric exercises.

What kind of set Rep scheme are you typically targeting?

So I'm typically doing 3-4 sets of of any given exercise, 10 to 20 reps, you know, pretty old school in that, you know, get the hypertrophy.

Yeah, like I do like 4 sets like 1512108, getting progressively heavier with each set, like basic stuff.

But it's like it works, and you don't have to reinvent the way I feel like a lot of people overthink training.

And especially now with the Internet, like, there's all these really cool, overly hyped, really well done, edited, you know, training technique videos.

And it's like in there and move some shit around and don't hurt yourself and do it hard and frequently.

And you're probably going to be all right.

Yeah.

I think that's the key is like one, don't get hurt.

Number one rule, do not hurt yourself #2 just lift the weight.

I mean, you, you, you see the old Ronnie Coleman saying everybody wants to be a bodybuilder, but that nobody wants to lift this heavyweight.

I mean, you do have to lift heavy and you got to get uncomfortable with it.

But number one rule still don't get hurt.

Yep, Yep.

You get hurt.

I mean, shoot, you're out of Commission for who knows how long, and then you're just lacking the frequency there.

I feel like, you know, I used to be like an ego lifter, Like I'd be in college lifting and I'd be just swinging weight around, doing half reps on squats of five plates.

And now it's like I've put more emphasis on, you know, full range of motion, just really having complete control.

I mean, like to me, I'll be doing sets of, you know, 315 on squats.

And that to me now with the range of motion I'm doing is more impressive than me doing 4 plates, you know, half Rep in it.

It's like you got to have the range of motion, but if you're activating the muscle with that range of motion and you're fully engaging everything, you're not risking injury.

Like you can make pretty much anything work, but obviously going heavy as intensely as you can as long as you're not sacrificing form.

I think another aspect on top of that is having a good mind muscle connection.

Feeling the muscle that you're trying to work with the movement is going to be so important because you can get so much more out of that lift by doing a little less weight.

If you can feel the muscle that you want to contract, that you want to isolate throughout the entire range of motion, you're just going to gain so much more benefit from doing 10 reps with with maybe 2/3 of the weight as opposed to five reps with with some real heavyweight that you shouldn't be touching.

Yeah, totally.

I'll throw in some like like I'm doing deadlifts, I'll throw in a couple, you know, final sets at like 2 to 4 reps just pushing it.

But then everything building up to that's a higher Rep count just to keep things interesting and see kind of how that Max strength goes.

But.

You got to, I mean, that keeps it a little fun.

You got to have a little fun with it.

It's not like, again, as long as you're not getting hurt, you can, you can do things like that.

For sure we got to get some together some time and get a lift in.

Man, I feel like I always, you know, I just want to like connect people and and get a workout.

You can tell a lot about a person based on how they work out.

Oh absolutely.

I there's people that like to chat a little bit too much.

There's people that keep their head down and just work their butts off, and you can find a full range in between.

I mean, you tell a lot about a person by how hard they're working during their workouts, but you see a natural bodybuilder in the gym and you can point them out immediately.

Yeah, for sure, For sure, man.

Well, I know I can't talk into doing my show in September, but you got to at least come down to it and attend it, man.

Like it's going to be a good, good vibe.

We're going to barbecue there.

It'll be great.

Because you're in Saint Louis, you said, right?

Yeah, Saint Louis oil that be about a 4/4 hour drive.

Yeah, about four.

I drive.

I got another clown of mine coming from Saint Louis, actually.

That's up there.

So so yeah, it'll be, it'll be a good, good job, man.

I feel like the more we can do to get natural bodybuilding known, especially in like Arkansas, which is where we're at.

I mean, the Debian BF is typically on the coast, like north or South Coast, not South Coast, East Coast, West Coast.

There's not a whole lot Central and Central America.

So trying to get it more in these central states.

And I think that's the key.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, and anything to grow the sport is going to be a benefit to everyone else that's already in the sport.

I mean, if if you can make the sport itself bigger, get more money in the sport in general, it's going to benefit everyone that's already involved as well.

Yeah, the more exposure the better because then everybody's motivated to be healthier, which is a win for society, Yeah.

I mean, at the at the end of the day, that's a golf.

I can motivate one person to live a healthier life.

Then then I've done my job.

Absolutely ma'am.

Well Josh, you're a beast.

It was awesome to to see you compete and step on stage and take the title 2 weeks back man, I'm excited for your future in the sport like 29 years old looking like you did, like you got nothing to do but get keep getting better man so I'm excited for you.

I.

Appreciate it man, it was great meeting you.

I had a blast at the show.

I can't tell you how many people that I've I've connected with that I'm talking to on an almost daily basis now.

It's it's been great all around great experience.

So thank you and no, it was great.

Great hopping on the podcast and chatting with you about natural bodybuilding.

A.

100% man, where do people go to find out more about you and dive into your world?

You can find me on Instagram at Jet Set Jim Josh, and that's Jim with AJ.

So three JS Jet Set, Jim, Josh.

Jet set Jim, Josh a tongue twister man, can't say that three times fast.

Well, sweet brother, I'll link after that, make it easy for people to find you.

Let's definitely keep the conversation going.

If you ever find yourself in Arkansas, man, hit me up.

We'll get a lift in.

Absolutely sounds great.

If you find yourself in Saint Louis, do the same.

I'll do it, brother.

Take care, ma'am.

You as well.