[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Crystal Pain Show, where we help you embrace your life right where you are and give you practical steps to get where you want to go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are in your car, folding laundry, cooking, cleaning, or maybe even just enjoying a cup of coffee in a few minutes of quiet, we're so glad you're joining us today.

[SPEAKER_00]: Here's your host, wife, mom of six kids, foster mom, entrepreneur and author, Crystal Pain.

[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome to another episode of The Crystal Pain Show.

[SPEAKER_04]: I have the distinct honor of having two guests in studio, both of whom I love dearly.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I recommend their books so, so often.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so it is a great honor to get both of them in studio.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I feel like we get this two-for-one package where we are going to just dive deep into how to help our kids develop resilience, courage, and really [SPEAKER_04]: dig down into some of their deep-seated fears and struggles that oftentimes are coming out sideways in meltdowns, anger, frustration, sadness, and so David Thomas, Sissy Gough, y'all are here to help us help our kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was telling you before we started, I, in addition to our three older kids have a five four and two year old, and I just sat down last night because your books, your brand new books just came in that are for kids and read them to my almost three year old.

[SPEAKER_04]: He said, can we please rate the puppy books?

[SPEAKER_04]: And I love these books because he was instantly able to connect with dogs.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love dogs.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so the name of the book Owen learns he has what it takes and then Lucy learns to be brave.

[SPEAKER_04]: And Owen learns he has what it takes.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lesson in resilience and Lucy learns to be brave.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lesson in courage.

[SPEAKER_04]: And you were saying that before we started recording, you really wrote this to have resources for really young kids.

[SPEAKER_04]: And the thing with having older kids and younger kids that I've seen, we really failed with our older kids in teaching them emotional language when they were young.

[SPEAKER_04]: And it was something that then when they were creatines and really even teenagers, we had to start learning how to teach them because it's so important.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I love that you're starting this so young.

[SPEAKER_04]: First off, dogs.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we gotta talk about dogs.

[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us why the dogs are the center of these books.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, first off, we are so thrilled to be with you.

[SPEAKER_01]: They meant that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now, thank you for your gracious introduction of us.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're so kind.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're so kind now.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it felt really natural for the two of us to write our first children's books about dogs because we love dogs.

[SPEAKER_05]: We are both therapists at an amazing place in Nashville called Daystar Counseling Ministries where we have used therapy dogs for a lot of years.

[SPEAKER_05]: So we've used them as teaching tools with kids in a lot of different ways.

[SPEAKER_05]: So this felt like [SPEAKER_05]: a natural extension and you have a really amazing story about how the first therapy dog at the start came to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so this was, I mean, probably twenty years ago, I haven't more than that, but I was sitting with a girl who was struggling a lot emotionally and she said she was contemplating take your own life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I that day had some people working on my house and I had to bring my doctor work, which is not was not the norm at the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so when she said that, I had to step out and call her mom and I hated leaving this girl sitting in my office by herself in tears.

[SPEAKER_01]: But my dog was there, no well.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I stepped out of the room and when I came back, no well was up in her lap, leaking her tears.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, I was okay in here because of Noel.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I told later I told Melissa who's our founding director that story and she said, bring her every day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have six dogs.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think on staff in our offices and Noel has a much younger sister who now works with me every day.

[SPEAKER_01]: David Stog is still [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it is, I mean, you know, Crystal from having kids.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the amount of kids who will say things to me, I'll never forget a girl who lost her dad.

[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, the person I talk to most about my dad is my dog.

[SPEAKER_01]: sweet and it just has happened over and over and over and said the fact that we get to use these dogs that in messages that will resonate with kids and knowing scientifically there's so much that dogs do for all of us for our brains.

[SPEAKER_01]: We talked about that because you were part of an amazing step.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was so in addition to Owens' work at Daystar with me and working with kids there, we also did some volunteering at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital and we were on the oncology and hematology floor, so a lot of kids who are really sick.

[SPEAKER_05]: the process of training at therapy dog is long and labor intensive and you get to the end of that process and go for your first visit and you're incredibly hopeful that all this training is going to stick and we in our very first visit I can remember walking down the hallway and this dog who absolutely loves kids was paralyzed in the hallway with all the white codes people pushing machines a lot of sounds and sirens going off in different places and it [SPEAKER_05]: it was somewhat debilitating and I remember thinking it's time I cannot believe we have worked this hard and you can't even get in the room to be with a kid and so I picked up this seventy pound Labrador retriever and carried him in the room and put him on the bed with this boy who was looking at him from the doorway longing for him to be in the room and [SPEAKER_05]: What happened next was what I watched happen hundreds of times when Owen interact with kids and loved kids and they loved him and the magic that happens when dogs and kids interact and these what happens with us as humans and that was confirmed in that during that experience we got an opportunity to be a part of a study Vanderbilt was doing with several children's hospitals to look at kids specifically who'd been nearly diagnosed with leukemia [SPEAKER_05]: and so before we would go in for the visit they would swap the child and swap the dog so that they could track a lot of things like how does this impact things like cortisol and dopamine and [SPEAKER_05]: How does, for these kids, how does it impact white cell counts?

[SPEAKER_05]: And so, to no one's surprised, because we all know we feel different and better when we're in the company of dogs, like the science confirmed what I think we've always known to be true, which is it lowers cortisol, which is the stress hormone, and it increases serotonin and oxytosin.

[SPEAKER_05]: So we get all these, what we call, feel good chemicals that have been interestingly enough, not just for us as humans, but [SPEAKER_05]: It happened for my dog and for all the dogs like when they were interacting with kids and I think not only felt the sense of connection but a sense of purpose like it lowered their stress it lowered it increased their oxytocins as well.

[SPEAKER_05]: So it just is this when when relationship that we've seen play out in our offices and the science has now confirmed is true.

[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't know this was gonna be an episode about why you should get a dog.

[SPEAKER_04]: My husband's gonna listen to this thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just gonna say, I've been telling you for years.

[SPEAKER_04]: This is why we need a dog.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're actually planning to get a therapy dog for David or for your who has a lot of disabilities.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so it's just interesting for you to talk about that because I do feel like there is just something like with our little kids when they're around a dog.

[SPEAKER_04]: It just brings out something in them that you don't see in other situations.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Put some in touch with the tenderness that I think is hard to access.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a generalness that can be especially hard to access with some kids, but is so good.

[SPEAKER_04]: So in these books, you're really wanting to bring these big picture ideas down into a tangible way that kids can relate to.

[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the things that I felt was interesting last night was I was reading one learns he has what it takes as you were talking about like how your dog was experiencing this anxiety.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I never because we don't have pets right now.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I haven't seen that so much.

[SPEAKER_04]: I really thought like, oh, [SPEAKER_04]: That's experienced that too.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think for my little Michael who's almost three, like he could really relate to that.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and I loved that you brought that out for kids to really be able to connect with, they've already connect with dogs.

[SPEAKER_04]: feels what I feel too.

[SPEAKER_04]: So speaking of Micah, like I have seen with him where there is he has just recently, we've signed up to a gym, they have classes there and for the kids and so we've been dropping them off while we do our workouts, in the classes and it's his first time that he's ever been in a situation where he's separated from the siblings.

[SPEAKER_04]: which we didn't actually realize that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think we have three little ones you just assume.

[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we like leave them places with people like he's good with that and he's getting ready to start preschool on the fall and he's had such a hard time the last few weeks of just every time like I don't want to go like I don't want to be away from my sister and brother.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I think this is a perfect example of kind of what you're talking about in this book and I would love for you to address like a parent that's dealing with that with a child where they're just going into a situation where they feel I assume it's anxiety.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm used to you guys can speak to it more.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like how do we help our child with those kinds of situations?

[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's a great question and I think [SPEAKER_05]: I love to hear you talk about the connection you observed with the content because it was a dog.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I'm fascinated by how much more willing I think kids are to learn.

[SPEAKER_05]: I've had three Labrador retrievers I've used in my work at the start and labs are great teaching tools for social skills because they instinctively stand too close.

[SPEAKER_05]: They lick too long.

[SPEAKER_05]: They get your personal space.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so it's a great tool for teaching kids what that is like in the context of relationships.

[SPEAKER_05]: Also, we put some tools at the end of these books that Owen, for example, has a feelings chart.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's easier to learn to name our feelings when a dog is teaching us that concept as well.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so, in thinking about those tools and thinking even about your question, when I share that story a few minutes ago about Owen, not wanting to go into the room, he was actually walking backwards.

[SPEAKER_05]: He was not only not getting close to the door, he was getting farther away before I picked him up and carried him in.

[SPEAKER_05]: I wanted to tell that story because I think every kid can connect with that.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's a universal experience as you're describing.

[SPEAKER_05]: We've all had a moment, multiple moments where we felt overwhelmed by the idea of doing something.

[SPEAKER_05]: what happened, not only did he experience rich connection and all the good field good chemicals we talked about when he got in the room, but he would have missed out on purpose, on relationships, so many things had he not learned to walk forward.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so I talk a lot about that walking back when I'm walking forward.

[SPEAKER_05]: And even there's some questions this scene I put at the end of each book where parents can ask kids about those moments.

[SPEAKER_05]: They can talk about those moments in their own lives.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like I felt overwhelmed to [SPEAKER_05]: walking to the boardroom today and I had to give a presentation in front of a lot of people and I felt overwhelmed and I just kind of wanted to stay in my office and hear the things I did that helped me get into the room and slow my heart rate down and be able to communicate clearly.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like I think we talked so much with parents about the importance of narrating our experience and again reminding kids we're going to feel overwhelmed by life in a lot of different moments but [SPEAKER_05]: How could we talk more about those experiences and figure out what to do in those moments, which is really what the books about?

[SPEAKER_04]: As you're saying, this is so fascinating because we signed up for the gym and I last week took my first ever gym class, which walking in the door [SPEAKER_04]: was so hard for me.

[SPEAKER_04]: I had so many fears around this because it's the silliest thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: But I got a C and P E when I was in second grade in private school.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I did not really until last week as I was anticipating the gem, that is the thing that for years and years and years, I allowed myself to believe like I'm not athletic.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not good in these kinds of situations.

[SPEAKER_04]: And everybody else will be able to tell like, she doesn't know where she's doing.

[SPEAKER_04]: And [SPEAKER_04]: So as you're describing that, I'm thinking, you know what, I didn't talk to my little kids about how I was feeling, walking into that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I, someone told me they said, you know, the hardest part is walking in the door.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that was true.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was like, once I got in there, I was kind of stuck, you know, back here.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, kind of walked out of the legs, I committed then.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I love that you're bringing that up because I was like, oh, [SPEAKER_04]: I need to talk to Micah about how I felt walking into that door and how scared I was.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then what helped me to kind of just, you know, like you were saying, and so, wow, I didn't know I was going to get a therapy session.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, one of the interesting things, and then I want to talk about courage and Lucy of that book, but one of the interesting things that you said at the back of this book, [SPEAKER_04]: see if I can figure out you said it turns out that sometimes standing too close and staying too long are the very best things to do.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I thought that is really powerful.

[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us more about what that means.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, I love that you asked that question because it allows me to talk about one of my favorite people in the world, which is my dad.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so there, I talk about how there are two boys who went really helped and who helped out a lot over the course of his life.

[SPEAKER_05]: And the first boy represents a lot of boys that I would spend time with in my work, but who helped him feel brave in moments where he felt overwhelmed.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then toward the end of his life, [SPEAKER_05]: Owen went to work a little bit less with me because my office is on the second floor and steps got harder for him.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so not wanting to leave him at home as much as he loved relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: My dad moved to Nashville after we lost my mom and he was [SPEAKER_05]: overwhelmed and starting over in a brand new city.

[SPEAKER_05]: That was a thing that made him want to move backwards and not forwards.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so it was this perfect opportunity of he was lonely and needing relationship.

[SPEAKER_05]: Owen was not wanting to stay home by himself, but couldn't do as many stairs.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so Owen spent a lot of days with my dad.

[SPEAKER_05]: He had a strong tendency.

[SPEAKER_05]: He like, as I mentioned with labs, Femensko never gave you good personal space whatsoever.

[SPEAKER_05]: He would lay on the bath mat while you were in the shower and he would sit outside the bathroom door when you were in the restroom.

[SPEAKER_05]: He would be on top of your feet when you sat on the couch.

[SPEAKER_05]: kind of like a toddler in my dad loved and needed every bit of that.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so they give a lot to each other and thus that phrase of it turns out that standing too close and staying too long can be a really good thing sometimes.

[SPEAKER_05]: Thanks for letting me talk about that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was just really beautiful and to really think about that.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just don't think that I'd ever kind of thought about how dogs are always up in your personal space.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: But how so many of us probably need a lot more of that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we don't have enough touch in our life.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so that they can provide that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But then also like how can we look to get that in other relationships as well.

[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes we need to [SPEAKER_04]: be too close and stay too long.

[SPEAKER_04]: Not in a negative way, but like really, you know, some, I feel like I think of situations where it's like a friend acted like they didn't want you to come over because they were going through a really hard time, but actually what they needed was for you to just come and sit right next to them and just be there with us.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, and I would even encourage any person living at listening, excuse me, to jump online real quick.

[SPEAKER_05]: There is a beautiful program called Reading Pause, P-I-W-S.

[SPEAKER_05]: that works with kids who have reading hurdles, kids who are dyslexic.

[SPEAKER_05]: And my wife introduced me this program.

[SPEAKER_05]: She's a learning specialist.

[SPEAKER_05]: And it's designed for kids that feel overwhelmed by the idea of reading, can sit with a dog and read a book to the dog.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that there's just something to everything we're talking about about touching a dog, why I'm doing this really hard thing.

[SPEAKER_05]: That makes it feel more manageable.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so it's a beautiful example of everything we're talking about within that.

[SPEAKER_05]: That the task of reading still feels overwhelming for those kids, but it feels a little less overwhelming when they're in close proximity to a dog who's listening.

[SPEAKER_05]: And we could all learn a lot from dogs.

[SPEAKER_05]: They're great listeners.

[SPEAKER_05]: They don't judge our feelings.

[SPEAKER_05]: They don't give unwanted opinions and advice.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like we could learn a lot about how to listen from being with dogs too.

[SPEAKER_05]: Have that day.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so bravery, courage, this is, it's, I mean, these really go hand in hand.

[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us your heart behind writing a book, talking about bravery and courage.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we have had multiple conversations about anxiety before, and we're just continuing to see so much evidence of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And the average age of onset used to be a, now we're seeing it drop to six with sons as young as four and five.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would even say, I think we're seeing it younger.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't realize sometimes that's what's going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were talking before we started about a family I met with yesterday and they have a three year old.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that child so much of their initial growing up was when we were still not moving outward as much with COVID.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what I'm seeing with a lot of kids is before they even can say, I feel afraid, I feel worried.

[SPEAKER_01]: What they're doing is in lieu of any healthy, helpful coping strategies, their primary coping strategy becomes control.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they develop all this rigidity, a lack of flexibility.

[SPEAKER_01]: If we're changing the schedule, if they're talking yesterday about the child, the biggest meltdowns are getting out of the bath.

[SPEAKER_01]: And just that transition from a warm cozy safe space to bedtime and bedtime is when I get most anxious.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that child has none of those words, but they have all of the feelings.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it comes out as a lot of anger, a lot of rigidity.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in the book, there are a lot of tools in both books that were offering parents that were using daily in our counseling offices.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so one of those is helping kids know that worry, place tricks on them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it makes them think they're not capable.

[SPEAKER_01]: It makes them think the problem is bigger than they are, that they can't handle it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things, really, the overarching theme of this book is that Lucy discovers that she can be who got made her to be and use her gifts, which she had this remarkable way, when she realizes how well she is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we talk so much Melissa who is our, again, our directorate.

[SPEAKER_01]: They start says this great thing that courage isn't the antidote to anxiety, but trust is.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when we can anchor kids to that kind of trust.

[SPEAKER_01]: And with these parents yesterday, I talked about breath prayers, which we love.

[SPEAKER_01]: And with adults, we can memorize scripture that just becomes, I can do all things on a breath in through Christ who strengthens me on a breath out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And with these parents yesterday, I said, I want you to teach her to say, but parents love me.

[SPEAKER_01]: and God loves me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: I can do whatever the thing is in front of me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we know when we take those deep breaths, we move the blood flow away from the amygdala, which is the fight or flight part of the brain to the prefront cortex that helps them think rationally and manage our emissions.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know we're talking about that with eight year olds.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about it with eighteen year olds, but I don't think we're talking about it with four year olds.

[SPEAKER_01]: And in a way, we even need to more, because again, they don't understand what's happening, they don't have words to describe it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the earlier we can intervene the better, which is why we're so, again, excited about these books.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I love that concept of breath prayers for little ones, and that we talk so much about moving from co-regulation to regulation, and we can do the prayers with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: We can do the breathing with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: When they're thinking about God loves me, my parents love me, they can let go of that need for control and rigidity.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, as you were sharing that, it made me think of how our kids are picking up so much of what we're doing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the things, you know, my kids pick up a lot of negative things that I do, but I didn't realize how often I just shoot up these prayer prayers to the Lord.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like, and just out loud until my just turned five year old, she has started [SPEAKER_04]: copying that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I'll say, you know, something will happen.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be like, thank you, Jesus.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so now she started being like, she'll be like, thank you, Jesus.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she'll tell me she'll be like, the other day, some her old teacher that she had missed so much came back to visit their class.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she, she got in the car.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, Jesus answered my prayers.

[SPEAKER_04]: And that she was telling me how she prayed for her to come and that she was just so excited that Jesus answered her prayers.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I just think these little kids [SPEAKER_04]: just they are picking up on these things and what we're doing it so for them to see us, you know, that doing those breath prayers, they're going to pick up on that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_04]: Also, I was really challenged in reading this book.

[SPEAKER_04]: I talked about going to the gym and how that was just facing this big fear of mine and you were in the book you talk about how [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it feels like this huge big thing and like I had made up Jim class is being like this massively huge thing and one of the silliest things silly silly but to me felt I can't jump rope like I cannot jump rope I've never been able to jump rope and so I didn't want to go to a class [SPEAKER_04]: where there was going to be jumping rope because I'm like, I can't do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody else is going to be able to do it.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I specifically like looking at all the details on the class and the Friday class, I specifically picked it like, no, jump your rope.

[SPEAKER_04]: We get in there.

[SPEAKER_04]: We get started.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I look up on the board and it says at the four and the eight and the sixteen and the twenty minute mark, we're going to stop and we're going to do a hundred double unders.

[SPEAKER_04]: What should jumping rope?

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, I can't do that.

[SPEAKER_04]: What am I going to do?

[SPEAKER_04]: I can't leave, you know, I can't do this.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I like timidly raise my hand.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so embarrassed.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, um, so what if you can't jump rope?

[SPEAKER_04]: And the guy was like, oh, no big deal.

[SPEAKER_04]: Just don't use a rope and just pretend that you're jumping rope.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like it was so not a big deal, but like here, I made this up into this huge thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then yeah, somebody else in the class didn't use a rope either.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, wow, that's so great.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you freed that person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, vulnerability made them feel safe.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I was just like, how many things in life?

[SPEAKER_04]: We make it into this huge, big, scary, terrible thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we avoid, yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: When it's like, oh, not a big deal.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the little phrases in the book came from, you know, have a six and three-year-old nephew that I get to spend a lot of time with.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we went to Disney for the first time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And my oldest nephew was four.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I just didn't think through how scary so many things are there.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we were going through the tunnels for pirates of the [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it gets darker and darker and there's the fire and his little face was registering more and more fear as we were walking.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I got down on his love on us at Henry.

[SPEAKER_01]: A little bit scared a whole lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we said it all over Disney World for those few days, a little bit scared, a whole lot of fun.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for us too, when we can remember, if I can push through this little bit scared, there's going to be a huge payoff.

[SPEAKER_01]: But so often, we don't want to push through.

[SPEAKER_01]: We back up to David's great point, but to help kids see not only is it going to be fun, but you're going to be so proud of yourself.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we sometimes robbed them of that experience, because we don't give them the opportunity to be a little bit scared.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's so good because I feel like as parents, we're scared of them being scared.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we let our anxiety and our fears, like, or maybe they're not even that scared, but we're scared.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we project that on them and then keep them from getting to have that opportunity that could be the thing that they, you know, just it's like, I think back to whenever our [SPEAKER_04]: Our oldest, she was, I'm trying to think what great she was going into.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think she was going into sixth grade and she had just a lot of social anxiety and we'd homeschooled her all along and we just really felt this prompting it was time.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we needed to literally like push her off the cliff.

[SPEAKER_04]: because it was like we tried all the different things.

[SPEAKER_04]: We tried classes.

[SPEAKER_04]: We tried, you know, and nothing, she just still had this.

[SPEAKER_04]: She could not talk to another child.

[SPEAKER_04]: Her age, she was just had such social anxiety.

[SPEAKER_04]: She could talk to adults.

[SPEAKER_04]: She could talk to little kids, but kids were age.

[SPEAKER_04]: She just was scared.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so we, [SPEAKER_04]: She did not want to go to the school, did not want to go to the school.

[SPEAKER_04]: But we said, you know, we're going to do this because we think that in years from now, you're going to be grateful for us making this really hard decision for you.

[SPEAKER_04]: And she was so, I mean, it was fear, but it came out as anger.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and the first week, it was just awful.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, did we, what did we do?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like why, why are we doing this?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like we've made the biggest mistake.

[SPEAKER_04]: And [SPEAKER_04]: You know what, my husband, I were just talking the other day because, okay, she's she's twenty.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's in her second year of college.

[SPEAKER_04]: She is on, she's the vice president of their campus ministry.

[SPEAKER_04]: She is working for a senator this summer.

[SPEAKER_04]: She is working on campus and she's also working for a non-profit in DC and she has like the huge front group.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm she literally just like, cool.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_04]: I was with her and she's like, [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I just had all these people over.

[SPEAKER_04]: We had a, all multiple times a week.

[SPEAKER_04]: She said she has, or we have a house that she lives until she has a lot of space.

[SPEAKER_04]: So she has people over and my sister and we're talking, we're saying, you know what, had we not done that thing that scared her so much and scared us so much?

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: She probably would still be like living at home, going to some community college online or something and not living into her full of self because once she got over that fear, [SPEAKER_04]: This like whole new side of her came out.

[SPEAKER_04]: We're like, she is an extrovert.

[SPEAKER_04]: Look, we had no idea she loves people.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's literally last year at her campus ministry.

[SPEAKER_04]: She was the fun coordinator.

[SPEAKER_03]: and see all these events.

[SPEAKER_03]: But everything happened.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I just, I share this with parents to encourage them.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, we have to be wise and listen to Holy Spirit and all of that.

[SPEAKER_04]: But like if God's prompting you to do that thing that feels so scary and you know it's really going to scare your child, but you're thinking like, they, these are skills that they're going to learn and they need to learn this support.

[SPEAKER_04]: That's all it had, and ultimately, it could turn out to be the most amazing thing.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's still to this day.

[SPEAKER_04]: She said, I will never, she told us back when a repeater in school, I will never tell you that it was the right decision.

[SPEAKER_04]: And to this day, we'll say, so what, no, no.

[SPEAKER_04]: She's a little suffered on that, but yeah, so I just I feel like it is there is so much fear and sometimes we don't recognize that it's fear because it's coming out in different ways.

[SPEAKER_04]: It's like anger and you were talking about with the younger children.

[SPEAKER_04]: What are some signs like that we can look for that are things that were like, oh, you know, how do we differentiate between [SPEAKER_04]: Is there, maybe I guess, this is a better question, is there a different change in between?

[SPEAKER_04]: That's just, you know, a toddler being a toddler or know that is those are signs that we really need to help them learn skills that, you know, there's a fear or something going on here that we really need to address.

[SPEAKER_05]: It's a great question.

[SPEAKER_05]: You know, I had a fascinating conversation yesterday with a mom that I [SPEAKER_05]: think was helpful and thinking about the question you're asking here and her tell the story.

[SPEAKER_05]: She is a eight-year-old son who has really big emotions over and significant things at times.

[SPEAKER_05]: And she goes to lunch periodically on Friday's with him.

[SPEAKER_05]: And he had woken up that day and announced that he had been saving up his money so he could have a popsicle that day.

[SPEAKER_05]: And he talked all the way through breakfast about getting the popsicle when she came and lunch rolled around.

[SPEAKER_05]: They were talking a lot of kids were in line.

[SPEAKER_05]: You probably know where this is head about the time he got in line, the popsicles were sold out.

[SPEAKER_05]: And she said David, thirty minutes later, he still was yelling and screaming about, you know, he just couldn't rebound.

[SPEAKER_05]: And they went outside, the teacher gave an option to walk around the traction.

[SPEAKER_05]: That's a movement or help with regulation and he was still just so stuck.

[SPEAKER_05]: He had this idea to what's as he said those kids get so controlling and fixed and inflexible and he could not.

[SPEAKER_05]: rebound.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I've heard it does in stories like that her pain or tell story last week about showing up at a restaurant.

[SPEAKER_05]: The line was too long and they had to change gears and switch plans.

[SPEAKER_05]: kids and can't make that switch.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I would say, I think one way to think about it is, is their response problematic or is it debilitating?

[SPEAKER_05]: Like for that little guy, he couldn't move forward in the day.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like it wasn't just a bummer, his mom said we talk a lot about shaking off the sadness and she's like, he can't shake anything off.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so I think when you see evidence in that way, we're not as concerned about kids who are [SPEAKER_05]: Terry and drop off who can then still get in the building, get in the classroom, begin to engage learning.

[SPEAKER_05]: We're worried about those kids who it takes an extra adult to get them out of the back seat of the car.

[SPEAKER_05]: So that's maybe one way to think about is a problematic starter.

[SPEAKER_05]: Or is it debilitating like it's getting in the way?

[SPEAKER_05]: You know that mom or the popsicle was like, he couldn't enjoy his friends.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like we couldn't enjoy the rest of lunch.

[SPEAKER_05]: I could see kids staring at him and thinking, wow, he still upset about the popsicle.

[SPEAKER_05]: So if it's debilitating in a way that it's getting in the way of life, I think that's a time where we want to look at folding in some extra support.

[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so for the parent who's less seen, who's like, yeah, it's debilitating like instantly.

[SPEAKER_04]: And they're that what is the next step?

[SPEAKER_04]: Like what should they do?

[SPEAKER_05]: One of the things that we created a couple of years ago, since he read an amazing workbook for girls called Braver Stronger Smarter.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I have a workbook for boys called Strong and Smarter.

[SPEAKER_05]: And we laughingly said, we put about the first three months of counseling in those workbooks.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_05]: So we really wanted that to be a tool parents of elementary age kids could access and start there and see if that's enough.

[SPEAKER_05]: Just some really good focus skill building.

[SPEAKER_05]: If it's not, we feel like that's not moving the needle enough.

[SPEAKER_05]: One of the things we [SPEAKER_05]: do in our practice that we love as we offer parents, consultations to parents all over the country.

[SPEAKER_05]: We can't counsel kids in other states because our lives under won't cross state lines, but coaching that we do with parents is something we could jump on a Zoom call and talk through some specific things we might want to add to the to do list that might be enough.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then if it's not, then there are a lot of amazing therapists out there who love kids, work with kids could offer great support to parents that would be a good next step in my mind.

[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_04]: So if they were interested in doing the parent coaching, where should they go to look at that?

[SPEAKER_05]: Jump on our website of daystartcouncing.com.

[SPEAKER_05]: Daystartcouncing.org or daystartcouncing.com.

[SPEAKER_05]: We'll figure that out.

[SPEAKER_01]: We'll figure that out.

[SPEAKER_05]: We'll start counseling and you will start.

[SPEAKER_01]: Different from the daystart TV network.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_05]: And you will find our website and there's a tab on the services we offer and parent consultations is one of those.

[SPEAKER_04]: And then a question that I get a lot for parents who are looking into therapy for their child and they're like, I don't even know where to start.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: a couple things.

[SPEAKER_01]: One is check with your pediatrician, check with your school, check with your church.

[SPEAKER_01]: If there's any overlap and they're all recommending similar people, that would be a great place to start.

[SPEAKER_01]: We recommend appearance often.

[SPEAKER_01]: Go interview them first and see what it feels like to be in their presence because their space matters a lot, which is why we're in a house with dogs and all those things.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now not everybody can pull that off.

[SPEAKER_01]: the warmth of the space matters.

[SPEAKER_01]: And when we're talking about kids, the warmth of the person matters too.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you just want to maximize the potential that your child is going to talk and going to do the work.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because when we get a therapy, we know we're paying somewhere upwards of a hundred plus [SPEAKER_01]: probably a lot plus dollars and so we're ready to do the work kids aren't and that connection is gonna be what really gets kids on board and [SPEAKER_01]: I love the story.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're thinking, okay, well, even I found someone and how in the world do I get my kids to go?

[SPEAKER_01]: I had a mom once who said to me, she's a my daughter pushed back a lot about coming and said, why do I have to do this mom?

[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, my response was, honey, my job is to build your team.

[SPEAKER_01]: And we have people who are on your physical team that are your doctors.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have people who are on your academic team that are your teachers.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I would prioritize having people on your emotional team.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're going to go meet these people.

[SPEAKER_01]: You're going to spend a few times with them.

[SPEAKER_01]: We may not go back for a year, but I want you if things get hard for you to feel like you have a person that you can say, I want to go see so and so.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we just go and get right back in line.

[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Be too.

[SPEAKER_04]: As we close, I love for each of you to share a little bit of the resources that are the tools at the back of your book and just kind of give parents a vision of how buying this book, reading this book to their child over and over again and helping them with these skills and tools could really make a difference in their life.

[SPEAKER_05]: we love to.

[SPEAKER_05]: So in the back of the Owen book, there's a feelings chart that's actually dog spaces.

[SPEAKER_05]: And so easy to look at.

[SPEAKER_05]: I think easy to learn from.

[SPEAKER_05]: And that is a tool that we can use with kids who can't even read.

[SPEAKER_05]: So we can just point to the expression and name the feeling and begin to talk about.

[SPEAKER_05]: those basic building blocks of what we call emotional vocabulary.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I love even going back to you, sharing that great story of how we can use examples in our own life.

[SPEAKER_05]: Like you could point to that expression.

[SPEAKER_05]: I was feeling this when I walked in the gym.

[SPEAKER_05]: And then I was feeling this when I found out I had to jump rope.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't know what to do.

[SPEAKER_05]: And I felt this when I raised my hand.

[SPEAKER_05]: So I think that narrating of our experience using the feelings charts in a great way to help kids build connections.

[SPEAKER_01]: And with the Lucy book, I have a thermometer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I do this a lot with girls.

[SPEAKER_01]: I will with myself call it a drama monitor because that's what it feels like with girls.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if we think about emotionally and one to ten scale, like the pain scale at the ER, but we're talking about emotions, we are seeing evidence of more girls and boys who are blowing up to ten over the smallest thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so the book is full of examples that make Lucy feel afraid.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then at the end of the book, we break down which fears registered where on the thermometer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so with that, and then the very last page is blank thermometers and kids get to not only rate their worries, but I want kids to rate what it feels like in their bodies as it's building towards town.

[SPEAKER_01]: because we all know what it feels like when we're a little bit angry, when we're even angry, or a little worried, more worried, kids aren't aware of that yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: But they are remarkable.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you sit down and say, tell me where you first feel afraid in your body.

[SPEAKER_01]: They know like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're so aware of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so to say, what does it feel like at a two?

[SPEAKER_01]: What does it feel like at a six?

[SPEAKER_01]: What does it feel like in an eight?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then even to take it a step further, what are the things we can do to bring the thermometer back down?

[SPEAKER_01]: So again, today, it's a great point about our workbooks being on the first several months of counseling.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, these are some of the first things we would want to teach kids, young kids on how to name and handle their emotions.

[SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully they'll be helpful for parents.

[SPEAKER_04]: I just love how visual it was and easy as a parent.

[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I didn't have to think about it just like you can just open up the page and it's so done for you there to really help your child.

[SPEAKER_04]: And I think it's just so so important that we teach from an early age for our kids to be able to name what they're feeling.

[SPEAKER_04]: Like I said, we didn't do that with our older kids and I wish that we had and seeing that with our younger kids, we're able to I'm seeing such a difference for them to just be able to say I was scared or I was brave like I love it whenever you know they'll say I was brave and you know to understand that and to be excited about that and rest to celebrate that.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so I just appreciate the work the all are doing, the ripple effect of it to help impact [SPEAKER_04]: So many, many, many lives and futures.

[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I was just thinking like kids learning this at a young age.

[SPEAKER_04]: I think of so many adults who have the popsicle situation happen where they can't calm themselves down.

[SPEAKER_04]: They don't know how to.

[SPEAKER_04]: And so that's why we see so many wrecked relationships and so many situations where it's just like a bomb with off [SPEAKER_04]: because they didn't learn when they were young tools to be able to handle those situations that we're going to come across on the daily basis.

[SPEAKER_04]: So this is so important and I just really, really appreciate it.

[SPEAKER_04]: So we will link both of these books in the show notes as well as your other resources because y'all have [SPEAKER_04]: So much, and I just anytime a mom or dad is writing and saying, I don't know what to do much.

[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just sending them your way.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just sending them your way.

[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so, so much to offer.

[SPEAKER_04]: So thank you so much for being here today.

[SPEAKER_04]: It was just such an honor to have both of you in studio, and I'm just so grateful for each of you.

[SPEAKER_05]: Well, right back at you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for joining us today.

[SPEAKER_00]: For more great resources, please visit crystalpane.com.