From the kitchen of the cabin.

It's the Five Games for Doomsday News with Ben and Steve.

So here we are ladies and gentlemen.

Due to a rather unfortunate employment situation on my part, I e.

I eventually got a fucking job.

We are having to do this from across the channel.

So, Steven, how does it feel to be firstly walking main the main, the mean streets of gross Brittannian And secondly does it give you an insight into who I am as a person?

Based upon second year in a row this has happened?

You realize it's like an annual tradition that I come here on my own in order to somehow discover the roots of what makes you tick.

That's right, and what have you discovered?

I believe, I believe I have discovered that on a Saturday night in Manchester the roots that make Ben Maddox tick, all.

Right, elaborate, elaborate.

You can't just make a statement like that, elaborate Stephen.

Oh sorry, booze.

Oh yes, yes, it's booze.

It's most definitely booze.

Four pm, four pm.

They're out on the streets and like I think it's nighttime because it gets dark here at four pm and they're already the pubs already packed, they're standing outside holding drinks.

It's like it's like a fucking apocalyptic scenario.

And I thought it was like nine pm.

I look at my watch at four pm.

Yeah, we love a drinking Britain.

What's wrong with you Saturday night in any British city?

And I realized something about myself, not just.

About you, Ben on this what's up?

Reflecting on just like a few hours in Manchester and then thinking back to my my time when I was in the US in August.

I have fully become a middle class German.

Okay, explain this, elaborate.

This is fascinating.

I I really find it very comfortable to be in the bubble of Prenzlauerberg, where everything is safe and predictable and quiet and cozy, and there are there are boundaries I don't go beyond because there are raucous neighborhoods of Berlin.

I don't go to them anymore because I'm just not at that age.

Ryan, You're an old fought Yeah it makes sense.

Yeah, exactly.

I want to I want to fucking wear my sweater and be in my apartment and know that everything is fucking right with the world.

I mean, for the listeners.

I have witnessed.

I have witnessed Stephen Syrek go to sleep on an armchair at ten thirty on New Year's Egg.

I have witnessed.

Bliss.

What an absolute fucking nightmare, especially having to wake you up for twelve o'clock and you were just like fucking Oscar the Gridge, just fucking wlu the bullshit.

You're a true joy who is truly sucking the juice out of life.

But at least I know who I am.

This is very true anyway.

So before we get Chester, Manchester's not a very big city.

I've already like walked the entire thing today.

I don't know what I'm going to do for the next five days.

Well, what I mean you you need to create value of your shareholders, Stephen.

Yeah, well Monday through Wednesday.

But I've got tomorrow to get through.

So I'm gonna go look at Roman Manchester.

He's like a Roman fort here because Manchester began began its existence as a Roman fort.

In many British cities, there's not much left but or something I don't know.

Then I'm gonna I don't know, hike alonga canal and visit an Industrial Revolution era neighborhood.

Yeah, there's lots of industrial stuff that's at George Elliott Mills and that.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm into that.

I bought a book, by the way, what is it?

Waterstones?

I went to Waterstones and I bought the sixtieth anniversary edition of a canticle for Leibowitz.

Oh right, I have no idea what that is.

This is a famous science fiction novel in which the world has been completely destroyed in an atomic war.

The Earth is dead, all knowledge is gone, And I'll just read to you the back blurb.

In a hellish barren desert, a humble monk on Earth's a fragile link to a twentieth century civilization, A handwritten document from the blessed Saint Lebowitz that reads, pound PASTRAMI can krout six bagels, bring home for Emma.

Could this holiest of relics hold the key to humanity's salvation?

It certainly could.

I mean the desert to the sort of barren nuclear desert sounds very much like Great Britain.

So you bought it in the right place, Stephen.

First published in nineteen fifty nine.

This is a landmark science fiction novel the twentieth century by Walter M.

Miller Junior.

And I'm going to read it and then give it to you and you can read it.

You're definitely going to read it anyway.

So before we move on to your job here, Stephen, which is to give people nicknames, I am going to do it.

I'm going to do a little monologue.

And when I say monologue, that means don't fucking interrupt me.

All right, a little monologue.

I just want to talk a bit about it.

I just want to talk about the Patreon a bit, and I just want to talk about what it is and my failures.

Should I start reading the book now.

Start reading the Cantercullar Lebowitz.

Yeah.

So, over the past few months, I've lost a few members on the Patreon, and you know, as like the German birth rates, I've been the amount of new patrons have been below replacement rates.

And I wouldn't usually talk about this.

It's just that I've felt that I've rather dropped the ball over the last few months due to a number of reasons.

It's not just one particular thing.

I mean, I had one particular event of my life, which is quite stressful and I can focus, but also sinking calendars with you and various things.

And I'd realized that people not people leaving the Patreon is essentially is essentially down to me and down to my slackness.

But you think there's a correlation between people living and like lack of content or something.

I think so, but also a lack of a lack of sort of endeavor, I think, and I felt that I've been rather disconnected.

But a combination of getting a proper job in which you know, a proper job that means that I have to go to a place and do something I'm not necessarily complete, that isn't my dream, my idea of a dream, and also couple that with an absolutely fantastic esson in which you know, I was very proud of what I did.

I felt I found like I have a new zest and I haven't really dropped in content on the main feed, but certainly on the Patreon.

And these are the people who help to facilitate things like the es and content.

I can't do it without the Patreon backers.

And I would be in England with Steve, but you know, because of employment, I can't really fuck off a week after I've started my new job, and I just want to say to people.

Firstly, to people who are currently on the Patreon, thank you ever so much.

You are the lifeblood of this show.

The only reason it happens is because of you.

And secondly to anyone listening to this who has become a free member or is thinking of joining the Patreon.

Primarily, the Patreon is to support the podcast as a whole, but I feel like I have the people who I've served the least have been the people on the Patreon, and I hope to rectify that in the upcoming months.

And I hope that through battle reports and other stuff, and I'm starting I'm going to start doing my sort of weekly podcast update again that I hope that the people who shown faith in me will continue to show faith in me, and the people who are thinking about showing faith in me will show faith in me.

Because it's horrible to have to, you know, talk about the Patreon.

But none of us are gentlemen artists anymore.

This isn't the seventeenth century.

We're not doing it as a lark in between thrashing our tenant farmers.

You know, we have to.

We have to earn money to continue to do things.

And so I just want to say thank you, and anyone is thinking about joining, I know that I wholly appreciate any support anyway.

Anyway, that was like say, as a patron myself, you're welcome.

And I want to tell all the other peers get ready for the best gathering of chums, live broadcast that you've ever heard in your lives.

And you're doing You're doing the live broadcast or gathering of chums.

I mean someone has to Well, this.

Will be fabulously exciting, Steve.

I guess I shouldn't say live broadcasts.

So Steve, you know you want to hear like live broadcast of like me getting pissed and having a Sunday roast.

Right, Well, so steevee efforts to take over the podcast continues anyway.

Okay, let's move on to this opening bit, right.

Okay, So first of all, Steven, as you know, you need to give some some people nicknames, and there are two people to give nicknames this time.

Yeah, you didn't give me any advanced warning of it.

You were too busy fucking jaunting around fucking Manchester for eating a pizza I mean that's that's that makes a lot of sense.

Has an Indian food as well?

Oh?

Yeah, nice?

I had you have a Sunday tomorrow?

One?

Two?

I've had three four beers today, four beers and a margarito.

And are you having a Sunday?

Are you having a Sunday roast tomorrow?

I should do?

Right?

Do you have to order them in an advance though?

Can you come on?

Do be silly?

Now?

Just rock up to a pub.

You've got a Sunday roast?

Oh?

Then I'm going to rock up?

Yeah?

What head time?

Do I have to have the roast?

Okay?

Good?

Thank you.

Armed with this knowledge, I am going to prepare to roast myself.

Nice one.

All right, So first one, Stephen, I'm going to pronounce this with an English pronunciation of a German pronunciation.

Matthew, Johann, Steve, Matthew, Johan yep j is the say?

Are they on?

Are they on the discord already?

I don't know because this called names are different, are they Matthew?

What was that Simpson's Was it Joey Jojo shabaz or.

Something something like that.

Yeah, yeah, I want that whatever it is, but it has to be the real one, hang on, Steve.

Steve is now typing.

I'm gonna vamp Yes.

Jojo Shabba doo.

So we team up my type of Joe into the search bar and auto completed Joey Jojo Shabba Dooo.

Wait, what's the full name?

Matthew Johan.

So it's Matthew Joey Jojo Shabba Dooo Johan.

Excellent.

And second one who is on the discord is Jesse Jones.

You're giving me like a lot of similar phone memes to work with.

You, lots of Jay's today.

Jesse Jesse Jones, Jesse Jones.

It sounds like a kind of old Western name in a way.

Yeah, like how how what do we do with it?

Though, I'm leaving it all to you love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're like really leaving me hanging here.

Jesse Jesse Wild Tumbleweed Jones.

There we go, Jesse Wild Tumbleweed Jones.

And now we'll move on to Steven.

I've got a nice bumper.

I'm sorry you didn't get fortune too.

Also, I'm not sorry.

So we'll move on to the right.

What am I talking about?

Agon, We'll move on to the nights of Doomsday Stephen roll that bumper by the power invested in me as chief Dickhead.

I say, right, Subeland, it's the Nights of Doomsday, which the guy Bumper.

We're gonna We're gonna up the quality as well as the consistency here, right.

Yeah, what do you think of the Bumper?

I love the I love all the bumpers, all right, So I actually I actually listened to them sometimes at work when I'm coding.

I just missed into the bumpers on like auto repeat.

Because they're amazing.

Right, So remember, Steve, I'm going to give you the name, and then you're gonna say, arise sir, and then the name.

All right, yeah, arise sir, so and so.

Exactly are you ready?

Yes?

All right?

So first one, Stephen, someone joined the Patreon and an instantly up to their pledge amount, like literally a minute later.

So yeah, they joined the Patreon at one level and then immediate wait wait.

Wait are they are they like hacking their way to a title?

I guess that's might that might be it, Stephen, Yeah, and.

You're you're gonna just indulge this behavior.

Hey, they they pledged at one level and then just up to to another level.

That is an.

Increasing place ben cheap Maddox.

Anyway, So Stephen Jesse Jones Jesse, Wild tumblewe.

Jones, Arise, Sir Jesse Wild Tumblebee Jones.

Excellent.

Then we have Tommy Pederson.

I feel like I should have done better than wild humble Weed Jesse Jesse.

If you don't like wild Humbleweed, let us know.

I'll try again later.

What do we have?

What?

Who?

What we have?

Stephen, Tommy Pederson, Tommy Pederson?

Well, what's the nickname?

I don't know.

It's just that that's the name on Patriot.

You don't write anything down.

Do you mean maybe they have a different discord name.

I don't know.

But Tommy Pederson, Steve.

Sir Tommy Pederson excellent.

We do have we do have one more nickname.

Actually I do know.

I do know, Stephen.

The nickname of this particular person who increased their pledge.

Their name is Yen's de Haammer folkman.

Stephen.

Oh, that's not who I was thinking of, Okay, But Arise, Sir, Jen's Derhammer folkman.

And finally, and I know this person, but I don't know what the nickname is Andre with the that's the way he's nice.

Say it that way is because there's a j at the exits the Polish spelling Andre.

I hope it's the Giant.

I hope I would have thought of that at the time.

No, I'm pretty sure you didn't.

I've never heard Andre the Giant.

No, okay, so arise, sir, dinner with Andre.

It's very good, all right?

Before we more, there's one more.

There's one more, okay, Okay.

I was chatting with my namesake, Stephen at Essen okay aka Dagda.

Okay.

Yes, Dagda claims to have been a patron since the beginning of this podcast, and even going back to your prior part, doesn't remember his nickname, and I told him that I would rectify that situation by donning him with the only nickname that he should have, which is now now that I've played Innish, the dadda excellent.

Okay.

Before we go on to the interview section of this news show, I just want to announce, and this might be encouragement for people to join the Patreon.

I am currently looking at seven copies of the Deluxe edition of Endeavor Deep Sea sitting in front of me that have been gratefully donated from Grand gamers guild two five games for Doomsday to give away in a competition.

This competition will be open to patrons of any level, so you don't need to be at the five euro level, which gets you all the audio content you can back for a dollar.

It's a euro.

But the competition is not going to be who is the biggest dickhead because we are not capable of determining exactly.

I don't know what the competition is going to be yet, but the competition will be held next month to coincide with the Festival of the Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ even and I will be giving away seven copies of a deluxe edition of Endeavor Deep Sea the reason and it's gonna be the reason.

It's going to be in a month because I need to work out how to do it.

That's gonna do like a raffle.

I need to work out how to do it.

And if anyone is listening to this, d m me on the discord to give me suggestions on how I may run it.

Stephen, how do people join the discord?

Let's crowdsource this ship.

You got a five g for d dot com and you click the pinned post at the top of the page.

And then you can like send ben Is at Ben's Ace or whereas we affectionately know him, Benny sache a d M with your idea for what he should do with these seven games.

Excellent.

So, Stephen, I have a very important question.

To call me Stephen today.

I don't know, I'm feeling formal because you're in you're in the United Kingdom.

What does it have to do with anything.

Well, it's a very formal.

This is a formal country, very formal country, the way the way the young ladies of this city are dressed tonight.

And you're calling this the form.

Is it cold outside?

No, Oh, it's not cold outside.

No, it's it's it's quite temperate today, all right.

Anyway, we're not talking about the bloody weather.

That's that's the death of conversation.

Stephen.

How do you feel about the ancient Roman port of Ostia?

I've been there.

Actually, the hexagonal port, Stephen.

Second only to POMPEII, and some may argue even better.

Well, I spoke to Patrick of Crafty Games, who is publishing a new version of the classic eurogame Ostia using a man Carla based on the hexagonal port, and uh, we're going to see what he's got to say about it.

How do you feel about that, Stevie.

I feel very good about that.

I want to listen to this right.

Now, so I am delighted on the new show to be joined by by Patrick.

You're going to have to help me pronounce your surname, Patrick Caperra all the way, the the illustrious, better looking and frankly, can I say Patrick, more intelligent half of crafty Games?

And we're here, and we're here, Well, I've Alex is the only one I've seen face to face, and well, if you're better looking than Alex, then you're certainly a good looking man.

And I'm here to talk talk to Patrick about Ostia.

Then you gain the crafty you've got coming out.

First of all, though, Patrick, tell us about so crafty we're an RPG company, tell us about your transition into board games and for see why you did it, and secondly, what's rewarding about that that transition?

Yeah, it's been an interesting journey.

We uh, we got our start back in two thousand and five, but Alex and I have been working together a lot longer than that.

We met because I was working at all Derek entertainment group way way back.

I started back in ninety eight, and I created Spycraft when I was there, and he came on as one of my regular freelancers on that line, and we worked together on a ton of different stuff.

And when AG went through its transition also from a role playing game company to a board game company, one of the things that they did was they shed a bunch of employees because they had a lot of people who were focused on RPGs, and they sort of condensed down for a while and then went through sort of like a chrysalist period and then sort of reborn as a as a board game company.

And I was one of the people that was let go during that period.

So I took Spycraft with me and formed a new company to do that and some other RPG stuff, and Alex went with me and we formed Crafty Games to do that, and so we did role playing games for a very long time, and one of the role playing games that we did was the Misborn Adventure game, which was licensed from Brandon Sanderson and went for a very long time, like a decade, and we eventually wound up doing a board game set in that universe, and it was very popular, and that was done by Kevin Wilson, who was my co designer on Spycraft, so we all sort of kept it in the family.

Of course, Kevin had since gotten a job working as a board game designer at f FG, so he'd gone off and become part of the board gaming stratosphere.

So we were very lucky to get his attention on that project.

And the Misborn Adventure game hit and we did an expansion for it, and we really sort of got a taste for it, and that got us started on board gaming, and around the same time, we were already starting to look at what the company might be doing in the future.

Some of the RPGs that we were doing were sort of winding down.

Naturally, Spycraft was hitting sort of a weird place where we were transitioning from one edition to a next, and we weren't really sure when that addition was going to be done.

As it happens, it sort of was shelved.

We decided to put it on the back burner for a while because it's that edition.

It's like got a very big idea behind it, so big that we decided that we weren't ready to do it, and so we looked at a lot of the other ideas we had a lot of those ideas were better.

Uh, we're handled better as board games and card games.

And so we got together with a lot of designers that that we were we were friends with, and we were already looking at uh at working with and they were doing board games and that sort of pushed us in that direction, and so we organically sort of became a board game company over time, and uh, that's where we are now years later.

We're a full fledged board game company.

Uh, and we haven't made RPGs in quite a while.

We will essentially again, but we're not there now.

So a couple of things then, So I met Alex through Ragecon in Reno and Crafty are doing Johnny Pack's upcoming game, Knights of the Rand table that I had the pleasure.

I had the pleasure to play the prototype.

And but also you know the game we're talking by today and various other things.

You've localized.

What is so firstly kind of what is the proportion and what is the what is the business model?

There?

Is it necessary for a sort of modern, modern independent board game company too to have that balance between localized titles and original work.

I don't think it's necessary, but it certainly helps.

Original work is, for lack of a better term, very very hard.

Uh Nights of the Round Table has been in development now for like four years.

It's been a very expensive project.

Uh uh in terms of labor and in terms of uh just you know, raw just time, paying for everyone's time and getting all the creative done and and allow sing for all the mistakes that you make along the way and realizing that this isn't as good as you want it to be, and so you let it, You put it down, and you start over, and giving yourself the time to realize that maybe this mechanic or that whole side of the game could could be better.

That part of it is, especially if you're fearless in your process, it can be really expensive and it can take a long time.

And when you start you have no idea how long.

Even when you're in the middle, you have no idea how long it's going to take.

Whereas with bringing on something that's already done, we're still pretty fearless in those in that process, we're we're pretty uncompromising when it comes to improving something that we license, and we take the time to make sure that we leave it better than when we got it.

So we're willing to put in that development time, but you're starting with something you know is good already and so there isn't as much danger of it being sort of an unlimited amount of time in front of you.

And so I think it's it's a good thing for a company to sort of have a blend because you can protect yourself a little bit with the the more quote unquote reliable releases that you could.

You know, you can get out on the market a little bit faster and they protect you while you you take the time you need to get these originals out.

So before we go on to the to the good stuff to Ostia, that's that's that's up for pre order.

It would be remiss of me, considering this is the news show, if I didn't ask you to give your views on the current tariff situation, how that affects Crafty and what your feelings are for the for the ball the American board game industry.

Yeah, well, I'd be lying if I didn't say that twenty twenty five was a nightmare, because it absolutely was, has been still is.

Obviously the last few weeks have been a little bit more of bright then they have been recently been in the further past, you know the meetings that we're seeing now, or are you know, a bit more encouraging.

Hopefully they will things will lighten up.

But you know, some of this there's a lot of hidden costs that people aren't even talking about, Like the terrafs themselves are bad and running companies out of business and causing companies that had full time staffs to essentially go to entirely freelance models and and all sorts of horrible things.

But there's one of the things that that I've never actually heard people talking about out loud, at least not in social circles, is there is a a a charge now that's being levied against container ships that are manufactured in China, which is ostensibly to encourage shipbuilding in other countries, particularly in the United States, which would be great if there were shipbuilding capacity in the United States.

Right there isn't shipbuilding capacity in the United States.

Really, the only ship building capacity and container building capacity that there is is in China.

So you wind up with essentially a default charge on nearly all leads everywhere.

And these aren't small charges.

There are hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases millions of dollars that are going to get distributed across everyone who ships everywhere, and it it's going to add up, and it's going to destroy margins, and it's it's going to destroy you know, companies.

It's it's it's awful.

There's there's a lot of these hidden charges that you know that the tariffs are what get all the headlines, but it there's a lot of things that are hitting people from different angles that aren't even those tariffs.

And it's it's yeah, it's it's it's a blitz creek.

It's it's really awful.

Well on that, then let's move to something more positive and let's talk about Ostia.

So so, first of all, take us through the process you went through to get Ostia, because Ostia came out in twenty twenty two.

Give us the process you you've got to get to Ostia published by Crafty.

And then how this version of Austria is different to the original version, because as I read it, it's not you haven't changed the rules, You've just improved the interface.

Yes, so we uh work with m ob Vanguard, which is a really big licensing agent agency at A Greece.

Uh.

They've represented us for years and they license all of our games to other many other publishers.

Uh.

They also strike deals uh to get us games from other publishers that they're responsible for.

Our small box stuff we do from Platy.

Uh.

These are the games where the box is the board.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it's Sardania and but Tom and we're just we just signed a big shot which is coming soon.

It was just at Essen Uh, so we'll be bringing that out sometime next year.

I think I'm pretty sure it's going to be hitting in the US uh sometime in twenty twenty six.

And uh, and that relationship is fantastic because we work directly with Platy to rebuild their rule books, so our work appears in both their games and our games.

Uh and they love it because they do uh spectacular work with all of their their graphics and the boards and everything, and we specialize in doing uh really clean, crisp rules and so both companies get sort of the best of both worlds.

So UH that that partnership is is awesome.

With with YouTube a Quoia, it worked a little bit differently.

We uh uh MV arranged everything.

We wound up with Ostia, and we had Ostia for quite a while, and uh, there was a little bit of confusion about when we were going to release it, which had nothing to do with anything really it was.

It was mostly just a a matter of timing on our end, and so this year wound up being the year, and so we uh we launched it this fall.

Uh.

It's it's on h Pledge Manager as a pre order, so it's not actually a crowdfunding campaign.

Uh.

It is a traditional pre order that is not on a regular website.

It's just being done through a crowdfunding style platform.

But it's just pay money for a game that is coming.

There's no stretch goals, there's no uh, you know, traditional thresholds to meet or anything like that.

And the price is lower.

It's seventy nine dollars.

That is a lower price than you will see when it hits market.

We haven't landed exactly on the the MSRP, but I can guarantee you it's going to be higher than that when it hits retail.

So we have the rights to North America, US and Canada, and we're calling our version of it the Mariners edition to distinguish it because there were a number of things that we wanted to do with it.

We love the base game, We absolutely adore the gameplay.

We didn't want to change a single rule, but we were we felt there are a variety of ways that the game could flow more cleanly.

So, for example, there was a probably the thing that that what that was the biggest change outright change is that there are six core actions in the game, one of which allows you to interact with cards that that you can buy, and they give you set collection icons and resources and some other things.

They one of the primary things that they do is they give you these amphora, which are tokens that you can collect, which are translate to victory points at the end of the game for a variable victory point value.

The issue is that the amphora themselves are both a token and an icon, which makes them a resource that is referenced on its own and they just the original version of the game decided that because of that, the action should reference that icon, and so the ike action icon in the resource icon are identical, which is a little confusing, and so we wound up developing a well, we cribbed from one of their expansions an icon that actually is independent of that, and so we changed a core icon, so now the icon is different and it is not the same as a resource, which we feel makes a lot more intuitive sense.

But it is a breakaway from the core game.

And there are going to be certain players, probably who are familiar with the core game, who have a little bit of trouble with like visual bridging, like identifying this visual means that visual who might stumble over that.

But for new players it'll probably be a lot easier to rock.

And so that's probably the biggest change.

But there have been a lot of other things, like on those cards, for example, there were there were places where there are two different things you can pay for and two different costs.

We reorganize those so that the two different payments and two different costs appear in different places on the card, and there's symmetry between them, so that those are a lot easier to say, see you can read right across.

We reorganize the rule books so that that again we've it's one of our specialties rulebook rebuilding, so we spent a lot of time rebuilding the rule book.

We spent we put a lot of thought into the iconography.

We didn't change any of the icons, but we did sort of enhance them a bit.

We changed a little bit of the colors so that we made them more colorblind friendly.

There's We added a reference card, a jumbo reference card for how you play the game on your turn and how you score, so every player now has one of those so you can reference them while you're playing.

We changed the fonts on the board to make them more legible, added references on the board which weren't there before.

Uh.

Changed to one of the tokens that is really really small to split apart the icons on it to make them a little bit easier to read.

Lots of things like that.

And we didn't want to confuse people who might buy our box if it looked identical to theirs and open it up and be like, why is this so different?

So we renamed it so so.

So can you give us a sort of grand overview of OSTEO?

What kind of game is it?

What kind of people it would appeal to?

All of that sort of stuff.

Absolutely, Ostia is a mancola game.

It has a main board, and then everybody has a private board.

Your private board is hexagonal.

Uh, it's shaped in the it's a it's a harbor and shaped like one of the famous harbors in ancient Rome that was also hexagonal.

You have a number of ships that are placed in this harbor, and the primary way that you play the game is that you are choosing one of six segments in this harbor and wherever you choose.

Whichever segment you choose determines the resource gain that you get based on the number of ships you have.

You get that many resources, then you pick the ships out of that segment, you distribute them clockwise around from there, one at a time, and wherever you place your last ship that determines the action you take.

And each segment is associated with a single action, so there's a little bit of planning.

It's a bit of a puzzle in terms of aggregating your ships in a single spot so that you can get a big payoff in terms of resources, but also planning where those the last of those will land so that you can get the action that you want.

And very rarely are you going to wind up with exactly six ships in an area in a segment, which is what would be required for you to have the exact same resource that you need to spend on the segment that you just left, because the segment, the resources in a segment pay for the same segments action, so there's a lot of planning over future turns.

The rest of the game is mostly a race.

There's a main board and you're racing ships across the main board from port to port.

You're building an engine by constructing influenced discs out on ports that give you additional engine abilities.

You're collecting resources as you cross various points on the board, and when you get to the end of various sea routes, there are a bonus rewards that you get, and there are also the cards that I mentioned, which you can buy at with various actions off of your harbor board.

It's a grand strategy game.

It's a big euro game.

People, really, the people are gonna like this game are folks who love Euros.

That require you to be thinking anywhere from three to five turns out and planning all of that.

There's not there's player interaction, but the player interaction is not of the sort where what you do on your turn is going to completely upset my future turns.

The player interaction is a lot less invasive than that, So that is one of the one of the perks of the game, I think.

And when we're looking at weight, what kind of way to be talking about it for us?

Yeah, I think it's pretty chunky, but it's it's definitely not on the high end of the scale.

I'd put it in like I'm I'm terrible at the BGG ratings.

To be honest with you, I bet if I give it a weight and I looked it up on PGG, i'd be wrong.

I tell you what, I tell you what Patrick, why not.

Guess?

And don't Why don't we do this right this second.

I'll pull it up on BGG.

You tell me what weight you would give it, and then I'll tell you how close you were.

Yeah, And here's the thing.

I've probably looked this up sometime in the last like three or four months, and I'm completely spaced on it.

I'm gonna I'm just gonna wildly guess.

So the if I remember correctly, the BGG rating system is like zero to five.

Right, zero to five, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's okay, to two decibel places yeah yeah.

So let's say like three point five.

I mean, you were within the correct integer.

It gives it, It gives you A three, A.

Three, Okay, so yeah I was a little high.

Yeah yeah.

And so if you had to boil down the singular appeal of Ostia, what what makes Ostea?

What?

What should attract players to the game?

What would that be?

What should it?

Uh?

I think that that Corman Coola Uh puzzle is it's just it's so elegant and so much fun.

I mean, you look at it and you you mess it up the first few times you play, because you you get into these the these you sort of put yourself in these places where you're like, I can't I can't do the action I want.

I can't even do an action this term because I've managed to put myself in a place where I can get resources, but none of the resources got can be used on anything.

And and it's like I want to play this again just so that I cannot do this to myself.

I think that mastering that puzzle, even just getting yourself to a point where you regularly feel like you've got flow on that board, that that is really satisfying and not easy to do.

I think that big main board is where you sort of feel it like it's coming together, but it's not really where the game happens the game happens on those individual harbor boards, and that that's that is the the place I think the selling place of the game.

It's it's it that's the place where I think people will gravitate.

And it's where I think if you were to sit down with somebody and say this is the magic of the game, that's what you would point to, all right, And.

Just to wrap up, then tell the listeners where they can go to pre order Ostia.

I really hope this u r L is working, but we have a customer URL.

It's Ostia game dot com.

I think that goes to the pre order page.

But just in case it doesn't, I am actually going to go and look at the full ur L.

So so I can help here.

If you go to ostiagame dot com, it just gives you a sign up to be notified page.

Ah, that is not right then, and.

So crafty Games dot Pledge manager dot com, and I'm sure that will take you to the right place.

That is correct.

Excellent.

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna try your I hesitated then because I'm just scared.

I'm scared of mispronouncing people's name.

So I'm gonna try again.

So Patrick Caperra, thank you very much.

Thank you.

There's a lot of fun.

Well do you think of that, Steve?

That was amazing.

Yeah, so I went, I went to Ostia in nineteen ninety nine.

I love your travel stories, by the way, so carry on.

Yeah, so you can actually take the I guess it's technically the subway from Rome all the way out to Ostia, Antica.

And at least what I went there was like nobody there.

So you have an entire ruined Roman city all to yourself, and it's fucking great.

I mean, if you're into you know, small walls.

Yeah, a series of small walls, Stephen.

Anyway, this is your favorite part of the show.

This is the Q and A where I've elicited questions from our discord.

How do people join the discord Stephen?

If they're just I.

Fucking said it already like two minutes ago.

Look you need to you're an a Look, Okay, I'm gonna stop recording now and we're just gonna have a chat, all right, right, fine, fine, fucking pit you gotta repeat things.

You know your memories, fucking.

Dog awful two minutes ago.

You know your fucking memories, dog awful, it's not two minutes ago because I inserted the bloody interview in between your bloody the interview is twenty five bloody minutes.

The interview is bloody twenty five minutes.

You don't you know how fucking editing works.

Is this going out in the main feed?

This is going out on the main feed?

Are you?

Are you just some?

Is this bloody position of yours just a fucking hipster thing or what?

Okay?

Okay, okay, So some people might not be in the discord already.

All right, so so should we go back to the podcast now?

Will you fucking stop being a little baby, fucking child?

You fucking do what I say?

You know what, I fucking travel as a Manchester.

I'm trying to have a vacation, Like when are we going to record?

When are we gonna record?

I'm organizing my entire fucking day around you, And this is how you chart to me?

All right?

Should we go?

Should we?

Should we go back to the podcast?

Put on a fucking friendly face.

Let's let's not pretend I'm gonna cut this out.

Let's not pretend.

Let's pretend our fucking relationship is wildly dysfunctional.

All right, let's pretend.

For the listeners.

Okay, I'll even smile, all.

Right, Well, Stevie, so how do people join the discord?

You wonderful guy.

Well, Ben, thanks for asking.

You got a five G for d dot com and you click the pin post at the top of the page, and I really hope you do click that post and join us in the discord where everyone is great.

Anyway, So Q and A Stephen, we had a number of questions this time, but we had a number of questions the dickheads.

The dickheads really brought it this month.

They really did.

But so I've put them all into Google doc and we're gonna answer.

We usually answer two, but we're gonna answer three because three irrelevant to an event that just happened, and so it's the best time to answer them.

Basically, you make me, You're gonna make me work today.

So these are all about Essen, all right.

So the first one is from the Dagda, who hasn't increased his pledge.

I don't believe he's a Knight of Doomsday yet, so he could get on that if he wanted to.

He could be though, Yeah, indeed, So his question is, Stephen, why does the hobby expect several innovative games every essen, when historically there may have been one big innovation every few years.

Are we anthropomorphizing the hobby now?

Yes, the hobby is one big thing.

Well, I mean, I don't know if I have an intelligent answer to this question.

But like film, like books, board games appear to be a hit driven industry and you can afford to publish a lot of non hits as long as you have one hit every year.

Or I don't know, I don't really know the economics of board game publishing, but it appear that you need to generate enough notoriety with a few games to cover all of the other games that don't do anything, because you just can't predict what's gonna hit.

And if there are no hits, then there are no sales.

And if there are no sales, there's no industry.

And some people would argue, if there's no industry, there's no hobby.

I, by the way, would not argue that, And I do not like that argument that has been made on the discord, and I respectfully disagree, but that's not what we're talking about.

Well, we can get into that.

Maybe you can do a special show where you talk about that, because I don't think I agree with you on this, but anyway, So the point is people talk about they want to play things that are innovative, and I think that that's not true.

By and large, truly original things, things that are truly original, are alienating, mostly because they haven't been assimilated into the greater heuristic of the human condition.

Right when people watch films, they don't want to watch truly innovative stuff like the eight hour Andy Warhol movies.

They want to watch a Lord of the Rings.

And Lord of the Rings is wonderful, but it's not original.

It is it is, you know, reiterating old epic tales.

People love the familiar.

Aristotle was right in poetics.

His structure of the dramatic form is what appeals to us.

We like to see patterns.

What we like, though, is to is something that feels familiar and simultaneously fresh, and that is what people are looking for.

But they certainly don't want originality.

I think cal Whirley is quite original, for instance, I just don't think he cleaves close to any sort of established heuristics about game design, and therefore his games are flabby and fundamentally uninteresting, whereas you know, someone like stefan Feld, for instance, is intimately familiar with the structure and arc of a game, and therefore his games, even even the mediocre ones like we played Druids of Adorer.

I don't think I hate it as much as Lemonchello does, but it is.

It is a mediocre scheffan Feld game, and and and yet it's incredibly satisfying because there is a craft, and craft is about reiteration, it is about familiarity.

I don't think we crave originality as much as we say we do.

You're familiar and simultaneously fresh.

This is great.

You're great.

I'll tell you what.

You're great.

The input is amazing.

So why does the hobby expect there to be a hit every year?

But is this tantamount to expecting.

You misheard that you misheard the question.

I'll read, I'll rewrite, I'll read.

This is like a job interview.

I answered the question that I wish I had heard.

Why does the hobby expect several innovative games every essen when historically there may have been only one big innovation every few years?

Does the hobby expect innovation every year?

I think people when they talk about, I want to play something I've never played before.

I want to play something original and the kind of done.

I mean, even the greatest board game ever made is based upon an established idea.

It's just an established alarm.

Yeah, exactly, catching things is very important.

I mean, I think people just want to, like, you know, line up at five am and then run through the halls as soon as the door is open and get one of the only fifty copies.

Of By the Way, By the Way, And I don't want to.

I don't want to hurt the feelings of any Americans listening to this, and Americans are by far the largest population that listened to this podcast.

But I'm sorry we are not Americans.

I saw someone running through the hall in the morning when we were at Essen.

That is absolutely unconscionable behavior.

If you want to.

Get some I don't.

That person probably wasn't American.

If you want no, they probably weren't.

It's just it's just when America sneezes, the rest of the world blows its nose, doesn't it.

And so it's just like no, Essen is about commerciality.

It is about buying stuff.

But this craven, obsessive hunger to buy Bye Bye be the first and and you know Rico spending one hundred euros to buy a game that he could have bought for forty euros the day before and can buy for probably fifty in a month, just because of that intense hunger to have the thing.

I think he's deeply I think it's essen is about buying games, but it can't be about running through the halls.

It can't be about crushes a Lah Black Friday.

I mean, it's it's absurd, no.

So so so.

Innovation in this case means like when the first Legacy game came out, and then Rolling Rights, and then.

I think Jeff will stay.

I think Jeff Engelstein is quite right on this.

When he talks about sort of originality and games, I think he's He says that in a game, if if there's something truly original, like one mechanic should be original, and then everything else should accommodate that mechanic with familiarity, because if everything is original, it's.

Just I'm gonna agree with you.

Last year, everybody wanted Lord of the Rings duel for Middle Earth, which is just fucking seven wonders with ip that everyone loves right, that's all that they want.

I P exactly what you say.

They want what's familiar?

They want they want I P, or they want they want to like.

It's about I P and scarcity if it's scarce, like I got a copy of Tax the Rich, I read, I read the rules.

Prepare to be underwhelmed.

Okay, Oh, it's gonna be It's gonna be fine, Steve, it's gonna be just fine.

But if you wanted it and you didn't get it and you can't have it, it rises in your your estimations.

Weekend was ruined until he managed to just because he runs the ballgame world, until he.

Managed to turn us out of the apartment.

Right, Yeah, people, people don't want originality as much as they want anyway.

Next question, Stevie Marcus the dorm Shepherd.

To be satisfactorily answered that question, though.

I think, well I think I did.

If you want to elaborate, please go on.

I know.

I mean, I think it's just TILDR is desperation, right, it's desperation to stand out because we have to differentiate between industry and Harby and the question said hobby, and I think this is more about the industry and.

I think people want to look intelligent.

I think they want to look like their kind of at the cutting edge of this thing that they're into.

I think that's why particular designers who frankly don't have a tenth one hundred thousand.

It's the ability that Ryder Knitzia has in his big toenail get get completely lauded because it makes people look as if they're somehow on the intellectual side of this hobby.

And you know, originality is wildly overrated.

Play games like them.

It depends and his fomo shit is frankly absurd in my eyes.

It depends how much of a hipster you are about I mean, we're pretty hipster about board games, I would say, because we think taste actually matters.

And I don't know that most board gamers do.

I think quite a lot of them are perfectly happy to play.

I'll use big As as an example, and and and nothing against him because he literally buys every new game that comes out.

He literally wants to play all of them.

And you know, I would prefer to go get the like the new Splatter game when it comes out, right, That's like, that's a very like hipster niche ategy that's the equivalent of the Andy Warhol Jean Dilmand rude of blah blah, just not true.

Though, just not true.

Though it's just not It's just not a true statement.

Andy Warholt's films are on.

Andy Warhol's films are unwatchable no matter how original they are.

Splotter games are absolutely fantastic.

They they implicitly understand the craft of making a good board game.

It's saying like the person who wants to go to the Arthouse cinema even though they hear it, but.

Yeah, it's saying.

It's saying that they're closer to Eisenstein or s Giulioni or pt Anderson the Splotters well, actually probably closer to David Lynch in the sense that there's a wild and narcic sense of humor.

It's like taking your date to Metropolis.

Yeah, I mean, you should take your date to Metropolis.

I've never seen it, so I don't know.

Second question, Steve Marcus the Dog Shepherd, there was a brief discussion about it.

Wasn't It wasn't brief.

Steve really went to town on meeps one morning, but there was a brief discussion about the mascot and ambassadors.

For Essen, during one of the episodes, who would you love to see Stephen as an ambassador?

So it was Myrie Stritter this year, dressed up in all her warlocky glory.

Who would you like?

Differentiating between ambassadors and mascots?

So we need ambassadors?

Well, I don't know, it's a new thing.

It's a new thing they're bringing in.

I'm not sure that it really does much, but they get big pictures all around us and every year, so it's got It's quite cool for the person.

Yeah, I'm not sure it adds to the baal particularly, but come on, play the game, say fucking gues for once.

You're miserable.

Old bastard Marcus is asking a question.

He's taken time out of his day to ask a bloody question.

Just just I think he's taking I think he's taking the piss.

Just go with the spirit.

Who would you like to see as an ambassador?

That's a really, really difficult question.

We both know it's Donald Trump, but we'll take Donald Trump out of it, Stephen, because probably not going to happen.

Who would you like to see an ambassador?

I mean you you would want to pick your favorite board game designer, right, Because these are for us, our our ambassadors, our entree into the hobby.

They are for us, the representatives of the hobby.

And I think the ambassadors that essen Biel are selecting are meant to actually don't really understand what they're trying to achieve, but clearly a broader appeal of some kind honestly, some kind of hot branding exercise.

I think it's people that the CEO of ESAM likes.

That's that's because I guess she's into high fantasy.

Because last year was the weird fucking rogue, the weird barbarian guy from the metal band, and this year is my restrict to dressed up as a warlock.

I think that's just what she's into.

And I think it's people she likes, basically, and I think I think she gets to meet the celebrities she wants to meet, right.

Yeah, So, so like what we call them ambassadors, So this implies that they are meant to bridge bridge the divide between gaming and the general public or something like that.

That would be the I guess that's the the idea, right, And so.

I'm very much the choices so far managed.

So I'm very much of the view that the last two choices, And I interviewed Marie and she's very interesting, she's very nice.

But both of those people play into the preconceived notions non gamers have about gamers.

If anything, it's cements people's view about this thing they want to have nothing to do with because it's all weird.

People dressed up as warlocks, I think, I think as ambassadors.

If you're talking about people who aren't into games and you want to explain to them this wonderful world that exists within the world of game mechanisms, I think they're the word.

If that's what, If that's what you're looking to do to reach out to these people, I think it's the worst because they really play into the preconceptions people have about nerds.

Right.

It reinforces the triviality of it.

Exactly, that's perfect.

It reinforces the triviality of it.

And I think you can ask I think all of us listening to this probably assume that it's not trivial, or or it has the potential to not be trivial, because I've had like that one that one anecdote right where we finished playing Concordia and we just all silently stood up and looked over the board in sort of silent appreciation, and we all sort of implicitly understood what an absolutely phenomenal two hours we just spent with each other.

That's not trivial in my eyes.

And I think I think having someone casting a fucking fire spell, frankly, and the amount of fun we've had playing D and D as well, you can be nerdy, but it's but yes, I think if that's their goal, I think they're the worst choices.

Gary Kasparov, he's a gamer, he's a political activist.

Gary Kasparov is an absolutely fantastic choice.

I'm gonna go with Donald Trump.

Let's move on to the next question.

What's the difference they both have games?

Okay, Steven multi dimensional chefs.

Indeed, Elle Ninmbo ask.

I happen to know that Elle Ninmbo firstly is a deadhead.

So I'd like you to tell me your view on the dead Steve.

I'm not a patron.

I assume well, I'll get to that in a second, but I know they're a dead head.

Someone from from the Dead has died, right.

Yes, I think so, But like, what's his face?

The main guy down in the nineties.

Didn't he Jerry Garcia watch your view on the Dead my view?

I mean, I'm not a dead head.

I don't have a you.

I don't really get it.

No, people like people follow them around and listen to terrible music while getting high.

So my favorite thing about the Grateful Dead is that Ween a great fans of the Grateful Dead, and when Jerry Garcia died, they wrote a song called so Long Jerry, which is absolutely fucking amazing.

I mean, everything Ween does is amazing.

I once once your wife told me that she thought Radiohead were a better band than Ween.

I think that's the most shortsighted thing I've ever fucking heard.

Ween are the greatest band who have existed, and So Long Jerry by Ween is truly touching and beautiful.

I've never listened to The Grateful Dead.

I don't think Ween is better than Steely Dan.

I do think weena better than Steely dand I like Steely Dan though, don't get me wrong, I.

Think Grateful Grateful Dead.

Probably there's like a lot to do with the community that I don't like have any access to.

So I'm sure that L L.

Nimbo would tell me that it's not just about the music, it's also about the people.

I happen to know that El Nimbo goes by another name, Stephen mm hmm.

El Ninbo also goes by the name of Jesse wild Tumble with Jones.

Stephen, My god, why do you do this to me?

Sure, sir, Jesse wild Tumble with Jones.

Yes, so we're going to go with his discord name though.

So el Ninbo asks, how do you explain the record number of a tessant who oh, I'm a talkie boy?

How do you explain the record number of ESSEN attendees and a large number of game releases against the backdrop of real or perceived industry wide turmoil?

Well?

See, though, what I think about this, if you listen to my secret SEN broadcast, if you're.

A Patreon, you can do that, But would would you give us a PRAI.

See yeah, yeah, I'm not seeing it.

I mean if SEN this year was bigger than it's ever been, and they they sold out every day, which they haven't done before, and it's another ten percent larger in I guess it's unique visits.

Two hundred and twenty thousand people is what they're expecting.

This year, then I would say the decline of the industry is grossly exaggerated.

That said, if you speak to certain industry insiders, and since they're German, of course they tend to be pessimistic, they would tell they would tell you that we haven't yet seen the full ramifications of, for example, the tariff situation, and this could very well have been the last hurrah, and over the course of the next twelve months, maybe there will be a contraction.

I can't I can't predict these things.

But on the basis of this past essen, I mean, there's there's no sign of slowdown that I can see.

What do you think?

So, of course these things so you're right, these things have delayed effects, right, we aren't going to see the full impact.

We didn't see the full impact of the pandemic, for instance, until about three years afterwards, and then everything contracted.

We won't see the ramifications of these tariffs if they continue to go through, until two or three years.

So that's first leave that this year's essen is not indicative.

Also, board gamers aren't suffering from the tariffs.

Board game publishers are suffering from the tariffs, and the kind of board game publisher that will go under because of the tariffs are small independent board game publishers, mostly American, most of them who don't have the money to come and exhibit in Essen, so don't have booze.

And frankly, the American situation just won't affect essen Essen.

Although Plata Games were there, Powers Games were there, a lot of American publishers were there, But fundamentally it's still very much a German stroke.

Well, it's basically a French convention at this point when Asmudey and Studio a Well haschet, but it's a German and French thing.

It's still very European.

And the thing is, we assume world American news is world news, and sometimes that's certainly the case, but I think in this case within the board game industry, it really isn't.

I think the American board game industry is still massively, massively infantile in comparison to the European one.

The big companies, the important companies, the companies that really make a difference within the board game will just still German and frenchy and and so and so.

I was telling this to a friend the other day, like why, why why is it that Germany is the homeland of board games.

Well, well, Steven, I've done all.

All the pest German.

I mean, all the best board game publishers happen to be German.

And I think you're right about what you're saying.

Also, capitalism is pretty adaptable.

I mean the market may change, but the market will adapt.

And I think the hobby continues to expand.

New gamers continue coming in and they want to buy games and get games buy and large are relatively cheap.

I mean, as far as hobbies go, it's not an expensive hobby to participate in a lot more expensive hobbies and gaming and people want to buy this shit, right, Why the hobbies?

Yeah?

Why is gaming grown so much?

Games are great YouTube?

That's why the reason I'm where I am now is because when I got my first copy of Pandemic and I played it and I loved it, I went onto YouTube and I watched endless shut up and sit down videos, endless diyestyle videos, endless Rado videos.

And the point is right, it is these.

If you're talking about ambassadors, it's people on YouTube channels and good quality four K cameras have never been cheaper.

Good quality audio has never been cheaper, fuck me, you can download Da Vinci Resolve and Industry Professional Industry compatible editing program fusing really THEO.

Mike Delicio should be the s AN ambassador.

Mike Delicio should be the s AN ambassador.

You know what, we clean them up.

We clean them up with Ben.

It could work, do you know what I'm fucking I'm a bit fucking annoyed with you, Steve to be honest with that.

Why you get.

Asked that question?

I mean I wasn't gonna say myself, of course, but you didn't say fucking Ben Maddox, the intellectual fucking hard board games.

No I did.

I'm trying to do you a favorite, Ben, because if you were the ambassador, that's actual work.

No, but I get paid though, that's all right.

I don't mind doing work for paid.

Love.

You're gonna have to fucking like, you know, like you have to dress up.

I don't know.

No, I mean, that's not my stick, is it.

But you'd have an attendant actually following you around essen so people could take selfies with you.

I'll be amazing, can you that?

Yan?

Can you gonna get me a cup of coffee?

Yan?

Yeah?

Fucking quick?

Yan?

Please?

I know there's a big fucking Q.

Yan, go to the front.

I'm the fucking sen embassador.

Bitch.

Give me a coffee now, Yan?

What the fuck is this?

Yeah?

You bought me a coffee?

Why is this on a fucking beer?

Yan?

Are you out of your fucking mind?

Jan?

Do I look like somebody drinks coffee?

Yan?

You're gonna be very toxic if you get any degree of celebrities.

Anyway, So to wrap up, Stephen, because we've been going for a long time now.

This is calling me Stephen.

You're good value, good value for the listeners.

So uh, Firstly, how do people join the discord?

How they join the Yeah?

Shall I do that?

Steve?

Uh?

You join the discord by directing your web browser to five G for d dot com.

Yeah.

It's a great isst achievement you've ever had.

Frankly, I mean you could ask one of your favorite llms how to do it as well, and you can probably figure it out.

You don't need to you don't need to learn the precise step by step instructions from me.

You simply need to know that if you're not in the discord, then you need to be there.

You belong there, and you should be conversing with us and doing everything you possibly can to dilute the unremitting philosophizing of VEZ the speed Opunen and CD Hunter.

We have to create a new channel for them every week just to keep them contained.

Also, people, please, people help us.

You'll get to participate in the definitive greatest Games of the of this century poll that we're going to do on the Discord.

I like this grassroots initiative, by the way, absolute so it's organically emerged from the community.

Say you've joined the discold Steve.

You've joined the Discord and you're into it, and you think, I'd like to help this podcast get made Steve, how can people help the podcast get made?

Well?

You can forego that extra flat white or espresso machiato that you like to treat yourself to every morning and instead put a couple of quid in the till for five G for D by going to patreon dot com slash five G for D and signing up at the one, five, ten, or twenty five or fifty euro per month level.

I recommend, of course the fifty euro per month level, the tabu letto tier.

That is my tier.

I'm proud to be a founding Tabu Leto tier member.

And all I have to say is, in addition to the content that you get, I would say the discord itself provides a lot of value, and every time someone joins, you're creating more value along with us.

And let's like build this thing.

I mean, it's already the greatest board game community on the internet.

We agree with that.

It just can keep getting better, all right, Steven.

So finally, all it takes is for you to say good night, Steve, for what to happen so you can go to bed.

I'm not gonna go to bed.

I'm gonna read my book a canticle for Lebowitz, all.

Right, so we all we all reckonize.

Steve needs to get a canticle for Leibowitz on the go.

So saga, nice Steve.

Pa how many pages do you think I'll get into it before I pass out on the couch?

None?

Saga, Nice Steve.

Good night, Steve.

Thank you for listening to the Five Games for Doomsday News.

To listen to past episodes, you can go to five Games for Doomsday dot com, or to back the show, you can go to Patreon dot com.

Forward Slash five g f D, so join us again next month.

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