Amy Riley: What if one of the most powerful leadership skills is also one of the rarest in this episode of the courage of a leader podcast, I'm joined by the brilliant Céline Williams, award winning executive coach, international speaker and trusted advisor, who brings a blend of empathy, edge and practical wisdom together, we dive into the often overlooked but absolutely game changing skill of critical thinking.

Get ready for insights that will challenge assumptions, sharpen your decision making and spark new possibilities for you and your team.

Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast.

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I'm so glad you can join us.

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Amy Reilly, now are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most?

Let's ignite the courage of a leader.

Céline, thank you for being on the courage of a leader podcast today.

Céline Williams: Thank you for having me.

I'm very excited to talk to you.

Amy Riley: Yes, me too.

We always have a good time, and I'm excited about the skill we are going to talk about today.

I think it is a skill that is not talked about enough in workplaces about how critical it is, and that is the skill of critical thinking.

Celine, will you start off by telling us how do you define or think about critical thinking, and why is it important?

Céline Williams: That's a very large question to start with, which I appreciate.

I'm so I think the easiest way.

And I'm going to caveat that this is not the like book definition of critical thinking.

I'm sure going to make this really simple on purpose.

Okay, so if you were to look up a textbook on critical thinking, I'm sure it would have a much more precise definition.

But what I would say, especially with what I see showing up in organizations and with leaders, that that critical thinking is the ability to see something, to think about things from a variety of perspectives, nice to look at it without the inherent biases or assumptions that we have built in driving the outlook that we are hoping to see.

Then to be able to use that information to make better decisions.

Amy Riley: Actually, I'd love to interject, right?

Clear.

I like that you're talking about the variety of perspectives, right?

Not just the filter that our upbringing, our functional skill building and knowledge building and exposure that we've had to date tells us without bias, right?

Like without infused with our hope that the answer is going to be x, but willing to be somewhat detached there and really take an objective look from different angles.

Yes, love

Céline Williams: it.

Yes.

I think it is one of the most important skills a leader can have, and it's also one of the rarest skills that any human has these days.

Amy Riley: Uh huh, uh huh.

Why is it important ceiling?

Céline Williams: Well, because otherwise, we all tend to fall into the pattern of doing things the way that we're comfortable doing things, yes, and this is the way.

It's all white.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Amy Riley: Everything's a nail.

I'm going to keep using this approach.

This worked here.

It can work here again.

And I mean, and sometimes we can find solutions from what's worked in the past.

Yet, are we pausing and considering this from different angles.

Céline Williams: Yes, it's and this is not to say that the way we have done things is sometimes the best way for right now, even if it's not forever, that maybe that is the ideal solution.

That's absolutely that can be the truth.

There's it's not to say, let's just destroy everything and start fresh over and over again.

It is critical thinking is really about being intentional about those choices and about ensuring that we're operating from best information and with the best information available to us in the moment, considering all of the avenues not.

Us the things we're comfortable considering and starting from that

Amy Riley: yes, intentional, conscious, oh yes, and willing to think about the answers we might not be hoping for.

Yes, I like it, yeah.

Um.

Celine, my how.

Brain wants to get more into the how, but first, let me tell listeners a little bit more about you.

Céline Williams is the founder of reVisionary, a boutique consulting firm that partners with growth minded leaders and executive teams around the world.

With over 20 years of experience in leadership development, culture, design and organizational transformation, Céline brings a rare blend of strategic insight and human centered expertise.

She's an award winning executive coach, international speaker and trusted advisor, known for her mix of empathy, edge and practical wisdom.

She also hosts two acclaimed podcasts, lectures at top business schools, and helps leaders unlock clarity connection and momentum in the moments that matter most.

We'll have some links in the show notes so that you can get connected with Céline, but thanks again for sharing your expertise and your time with us today.

Céline Williams: I love doing this.

I loved these conversations, I always enjoy talking to you, and truly there are the more we can talk about, whether it's critical thinking or other like real, practical leadership skills and opportunities, the more we're going to have leaders that are actually thinking and doing and improving in these areas.

And that's what it's all about.

Amy Riley: Yes, couldn't agree more.

How do we do it?

How do we critical think in these leadership moments?

Céline Williams: Yeah, I would love to say, listen, here's the three things that we just do over and over again, and it's solved, right?

Unfortunately, that's not the case.

But I joke.

I you know, I joke.

And also, there are real things that we can do to improve our critical thinking, for ourselves, for those around us to really even be here's the thing, if we are being really mindful and intentional about critical thinking and about how we make decisions, we can take some steps to improve it, just from that starting point.

And what I mean by that is, if we first and foremost, we all have to be willing to say we all have biases.

We all have biases.

They come with, where we were born, who we are in the world, who our parents were, how we were raised, how we were educated, where we've been in the world,

Amy Riley: what like you name and exposed to?

Yeah, exactly.

We all

Céline Williams: have biases that are inside of us as a result of all these things.

And biases are great because our it's our brain trying to keep us safe.

So let's not say all biases are we have them because our brain is like, Hey, I care about you.

I want to keep you safe.

I'm connecting dots.

I'm doing the right dots because I'm still fallible, but I am connecting dots to try and keep you safe.

So I'm creating these biases based on things that may or may not be true in the hopes to keep you as safe as possible, as a human being on this

Amy Riley: planet.

Yes, the brain saying, hey, you've never done that before.

You've never considered that before.

What are you doing?

Come back to this thing you know over here, exactly.

Céline Williams: So they're great.

We are supposed to have biases.

They're not inherently bad, nice and yeah, inside of that, we also have to say they're also not all good.

They're also not all there to actually serve us, because they are not the truth.

They are patterns and assumptions that our brain is making.

So one of the key things is being willing to say, Yes, I have biases, and recognize our own biases, good, bad or ugly, yeah, and then also being able to identify what they are, especially the ones that may not be true or are driving certain behaviors or patterns in the work that we're doing, the decisions we're making, The teams were leading whatever those case, whatever that case may be,

Amy Riley: yes.

So Céline, I'm hearing, first of all, having on our radar, having an intention to be aware about how we are thinking, how we are critically thinking, being willing to say to ourselves, yeah, I'm a human being with the brain.

So I have biases, yes, and I love how you name that.

It's the brain doing its survival mechanism, thing that it has been doing for us humans for centuries, right?

So we can detach from it a little bit like my brain is telling me this my brain.

That's finding this unfamiliar, right?

So I'm having some judgments or some ideas about it.

So how do we identify those biases?

How do we check those and make sure we're a bit more conscious of how they are impacting our thinking in the moment?

Céline Williams: So I would offer that doing it in the moment on our own is really hard.

Okay, yeah, let's not do that.

Okay, we can all get to the point where it's a practice and we can do that, and we're really good at it, but if that's our starting point in the moment, high stakes.

I'm trying to do this on my own.

That's really tough.

Yeah, when it's a situation like that, having someone around you who you trust, who understands and is familiar with some of the most common biases, to be able to call them out or point them out, even if they don't know the language I don't, I'm not as fussed about naming this.

Is it this type of bias?

And there are lists for that online, and they're wonderful.

They're less concerned about it's a, x, y, z, no bias, or, yeah, right, I'm less concerned about the name of it, versus, like, pointing out that there is a bias.

And let's talk about that.

If you have a trusted person, great, if not, when you're not in as high stakes environment.

If you think through some of the decisions that you've made, some of the situations that you faced and how you've thought about them or worked through them, we can often then start to break apart patterns and biases inside of those and so doing it when it's not in a high stakes so for example, it can be something like a really easy one.

I'm going to use a hiring example.

So, you know, we're doing interviews to hire someone, and we tend to, like, when there's someone who went to the same university or college that we did, we're like, oh my gosh, this didn't you go here?

And then that interview, we're like, Man, I really liked Amy.

She was awesome.

Amy Riley: Yeah, we're talking about Saturdays at the football games.

Céline Williams: Yeah, right.

It's a silly example, but that's a there's a bias there.

Like, we're like, Oh, someone has a similar background to me.

I am feeling a certain way.

If we then have 10 of the 15 shortlisted people who went to the same college that we went to, we can start to say, Okay, so where are these again?

Don't care if you name the bias, but where am I seeing these patterns in how I've approached things and thought about things, to start to identify the biases, which then helps me in those moments of when I'm under pressure, think about what's driving this, where is this coming from?

Am I thinking of other possibilities?

Am I looking at other potential perspectives?

Am I shutting down or opening up too soon, or whatever the case may be?

Amy Riley: Yes, yes.

Okay, I love this Céline I mean, I'm hearing the invitation that we could look back at the decisions, or the reactions that we had over the past week, over the past month, we could look at it in retro.

And what was that play, right?

What were the variables I was most leaning on?

What was the rationale I was most leaning on.

Yes, I also love this question.

If we witness a behavior from somebody, let's just say we walk into a physical room and someone is staring off out the window silently, or let's say they're doing that during a meeting, right?

If it was our highest performer, we might think, Oh, right.

They're thinking about how this can work, right?

They're strategizing about how this is going to go.

If they're our lowest performer, we might think, Oh, they're distracted.

They're looking out of the window right now, right?

If we ask ourselves, what would I think if it was this person that I have really high regard for?

What if it was this person, right?

And what is changing my reaction and my behavior in that moment, right?

Or even if you're making decision about a product line, what would we what would I think if it was the a product line versus the E product line like?

And why am I thinking about that differently to kind of tease out, what are my positive assumptions?

What are my negative assumptions?

What are my seemingly neutral assumptions?

Yes, cuz all of those are going to have filters and bias that have some impact,

Céline Williams: uh, 100% and I would say there is a tool that you can use in critical thinking.

We're in the moment of making a decision.

And I going to put a pin in something to come back to, because the decision itself, like defining that let I want to come back to that.

Oh, okay, yep, once we have this is what we're facing.

This is the decision.

This.

Is the moment.

If we take the time to pause and actually write out and especially if there's other people involved, collect it out first.

Do not say it out loud.

Okay, so start by write my own.

Write write your own.

Write your own.

I write my own.

We're going to write out all the assumptions we have, nice, good, bad or ugly.

What are the assumptions that are here, some of them are not going to matter, and that's okay.

But if we do this all individually and then we share it after, we'll get a real sense of what those assumptions are with again, there will be bias inherent in them.

If we are familiar with our own biases, we can start to see that and then pull apart those assumptions, like, oh, this assumption I'm making is based on this bias I have that's not a real thing.

I'm okay to pull let's move that off, because it's not now that I've seen it, I don't have to spend the time on it.

But there's a whole practice of writing out, or there.

Can be there?

Should I wish there was more often, a whole practice of writing out assumptions that we have about a project, a decision, a problem that we're faced, whatever the case may be, if we can do that for ourselves, we will make better decisions.

We will end up with stronger, more sustainable, more whatever you want to call it, strategies, yeah, we just we solve problems more effectively if we understand the assumptions first, yes,

Amy Riley: yes.

And I'm thinking Céline.

If this feels like a jump for a team, ooh, this feels too vulnerable.

I'm not sure if I want to put that out there.

Find an anonymous way to do it.

Have a shared document where people can add those assumptions in there in random order, I don't know, right, but just so that you get them all out on the table and begin to build that muscle of defining, recognizing and deciding which assumption assumptions to leave behind 100%

Céline Williams: because there some of the assumptions we have are going to be based on biases.

If we know that, and we can identify that, we can often push we can push that to the side in the sense that it's main, it's probably not as relevant, or I don't want that running the show.

Yeah, it's based on past experience and less of a bias, but, like I had this experience, so I have this assumption.

Now we can then ask the question, Is that relevant?

Does that matter in this situation, right?

Is that, if it's if it is something that we like, is this something that could be true?

Is it something that may not be what ha who is involved, what has to happen?

What are the realities of this?

We can then start to ask better questions of the situation based on how we're categorizing some of the assumptions that we make or that we are making, because, by the way, we're all always making assumptions, as well as having biases, we are human beings, and our brains love to do this, so let's acknowledge it and do something about it and bring it to light, yeah, so that we can address it, as opposed to shuffling it under the rug, for lack of better term.

And then it becomes what I always call ghost assumptions, which they are the assumptions that are driving us, yeah, but we're not actually recognizing or acknowledging, and then it's like, what that what?

How did that happen?

A couple of

Amy Riley: examples are popping into my mind, Céline, like one, if there's just this assumption, like, marketing always slows us down.

Yeah, right.

And it could seem like a pretty okay.

It seems like a not great, like, mildly negative, right, or somewhat, like, neutral, like, I might feel like I have some evidence, yeah, to how that can be true.

But if we don't call that out and say, You know what, like that perspective is not serving us, let's start to influence that relationship, right?

Let's look for evidence of how that's not true.

Yes.

And I think sometimes there can be seemingly neutral assumptions, like it takes six months to launch a product like this, does it?

Does it have to in the future?

Céline Williams: Yes, yeah, Yep, absolutely.

And interesting if, if we write that, if we state that, it takes six months to launch a product like this, if we state that, then, to your point, we can ask the question, does it have to is that always what has to happen for that not to be the case?

What needs to change so that it doesn't take six months?

Yeah, maybe six months isn't enough time, and that's why our products aren't working as well as we hope.

Yeah.

So what needs to change for them to launch more effectively?

Maybe it needs eight months, and we're missing a step right like so if we state the assumption, we can ask a better question.

Amy Riley: I get excited about these.

Conversations that can happen.

Yes, once one is out on the table.

100% Okay, now let's examine the sucker right now we can now, we can have some fun, absolutely get creative, but we've got to have that courage to put that out there.

Céline Williams: And let's acknowledge that Sammy, it takes a lot of courage to put it out there.

It takes a lot of courage.

I mean, I would say when it comes to critical thinking, most of the exercises, steps, strategies in critical thinking, take courage, because they are not the norm.

They are not what's expected.

Leaders are expected to think critically without doing any of this, and which is why they often don't know.

Offense to leaders.

It's not a single person.

It is a it's a systemic issue.

Yeah, because they're not given the space or taught how to it's just like you, we assume you're thinking critically.

So just think critically.

And it takes courage to to institute these changes and be willing to have these conversations, because they're going to be uncomfortable.

Yes, and healthy tension is exceptionally valuable when it comes to critical thinking.

Amy Riley: Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking like leaders, if you can begin to build this muscle, have yourself model it for your team, and bring your team courageously into these conversations.

What a game changer.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Now, Celine, you had us put a pin in something, yeah, and that was defining the decision, yes.

Céline Williams: So the reason I said, let's put a pin in this is because the one of the challenges, let's call it, that I see across the board, whether it's large organizations, small organizations, teams, groups, departments, whatever the case may be, is misconstruing a symptom for a problem?

Okay, yes, and what I mean by that is there is an issue and that is a symptom of something, and there's not enough digging into what's really going on or what's really behind it to identify the correct problem and the root cause, yeah, the root cause, and then we are making decisions that are not based on the best information, because we're not doing the critical thinking to get to the root cause, or at least as close to the root cause.

Sometimes we don't know enough to get truly to what right, like that does happen, but we can dig deep enough to get close enough to it, but

Amy Riley: and then, and then stay in the inquiry correct over time.

Do you have an example you can share with us?

Céline, of of a symptom?

Be of confusing a symptom for cause?

Céline Williams: Yes.

So there are, I'm, I'm gonna try to anonymize this as much as possible.

Okay, the An example would be a company has is struggling with sales.

There's what's worked in the past isn't working as well as it has the you know, sales leaders are looking at, how do we solve this?

Yeah, and not enough.

Sales people aren't selling enough.

And so it's like, okay, well, if we hire people to do a certain amount of follow up, this is, I'm, there's a specific title there that I'm blanking on to even get, but like to do the connecting and follow up.

If they're following up, operationalizing, doing this piece behind then we'll have more closing of the sales.

I'll have better information.

Whatever the case may be, it's a it's

Amy Riley: so we're assuming that we need to fix this problem.

The problem needs to be more follow up.

We need more people doing that.

Céline Williams: And this is, I mean, I'm anonymizing it as much as possible.

This is a an example I have seen in two different large organizations, very similar to this, where it's like, okay, well, we just need these people to do this thing that will then fix the problem, and we'll close more sales.

We need more activity.

Yeah, right.

And new people doing this will solve that, as opposed to the real problem, like, when we've done some of the work to step further back from that, yeah, the problem is not that the activity isn't there, or that there's not enough people going out and talking to potential clients.

It's that there are there's a disconnect with the product, or that the product isn't solving the problem that they really have, or that, or that there is, there are better offers out there that are more compelling.

So the problem was not the activity.

The problem was you had to ask another five questions to get behind it.

Amy Riley: Yeah.

Which could be scary to advance, very scary.

Our solution might not be the best in the market, or our competitor is, is demonstrating something better than we are right now.

Like, ah, that's a scarier conclusion,

Céline Williams: way scarier than we just need more we need more activity so we have more sales.

That is, that's a symptom, like, I understand that is a symptom, and we feel we can solve that.

We can hire more people, we can do more activity, yep, but we're not solving the problem, and we're not doing something that actually addresses or we are not even making decisions to help address the problem in the future, when we're only looking at this piece of it.

And that is the other scary thing is, so if the problem is, our product is not as competitive on the market as it once was, if we admit that, then it changes the decisions we're making fundamentally about the future?

Yeah.

And the only way to create something that is sustainable or has potential in the future is to identify that problem, to be able to do something about it.

Yes, but if we do that, then we're admitting we have, like, it's, it is a cycle.

I understand how scary that is, and how big that can feel, how overwhelming it can feel, yeah, but it is the only way to potentially change the future.

Yeah, as opposed to just, let's do some busy stuff that doesn't actually have an impact.

Amy Riley: Yes, and and we have been programmed.

We've been socialized to get busy and do something to solve the situation at hand, to capitalize on an opportunity.

Whatever it might be, leaders are immediately going to Okay.

What are we going to do next, instead of slowing down, stepping back doesn't have to be for months.

But what?

What is the what is the problem, what is the decision, what is the opportunity?

How are we defining that?

Are we sure we fully understand that?

And yes, there might be some immediate actions to take, but we can stay engaged in that definition and that inquiry over time.

Céline Williams: So I love what you just said, and I want to emphasize it because it is not either or are likely activities that can be done right now.

Yeah, to move stuff forward, to be productive, to whatever, and we are thinking about the bigger problem and hopefully making some progress and choices there.

The difference is that the activities that we are going to choose to do right now to hopefully drive some changes are probably going to be different than if when we understand what the real problem is.

So it's not to say we're not doing anything now.

It's that make better choices about even the immediate activities when we understand what the core problem is, yes, and see what kind of impact those immediate activities have or don't have, exactly, absolutely.

Okay, Celine, you've given us a lot of good stuff here.

Let me end with this question.

So if I'm a leader listening and I'm thinking, oh, right, like we are just always running and assembling the plane as we're flying, and I haven't talked to my team about bias or assumptions or clarifying decisions in a disciplined way.

Where do they get started?

I'm going to give the answer that nobody likes first, and then I can give a better, a more acceptable answer, but the answer is that it really does depend on each leader's situation and their team situation.

So sure there is a real depends, right, right?

And so I'm going to say it depends, because there is no one size fits all for any of this.

Amy Riley: Whatever you got most excited about as you were listening to this conversation, right?

It's probably fitting for your situation.

But okay,

Céline Williams: right?

So I saying that I truly if leaders start with having people pause and write their thoughts down, so if we can just get rid of brainstorming in the way that we do, where it's just like everyone popcorns up ideas, and we all build on ideas that would be the best and easiest way to start some critical thinking, because we know when that happens.

People build on what other people have said.

They don't come up with their own ideas in the same way they're often stifled from sharing their ideas if it's different than if my boss says something that's totally opposite to what I was going to say.

I am far less likely to share my idea, even if it's a better idea, because I have more like current information, hands, far less likely to so, yeah.

The easiest thing I would say across the board, broad generalization, yeah.

But the.

No, I like this.

Stop that.

Let's when, if we want to brainstorm, if we want to come up with ideas as a group, we're not individual reflection, first individual reflection, first grand individual reflection, that involves writing down our ideas so that and then everyone is encouraged.

And how you encourage it.

This is where the how becomes nuanced, but then we're encouraging people to share the things they've written down in different ways and not about Amy says it's x, y, z, and I go, yes, it's what I agree.

We're not doing that.

We're not agreeing with Amy, no offense.

Amy, we love you, but Amy shares it that gets written down, and then I share the thing that's on my list, and if it is the same as yours, but it's written slightly differently, I'll share it the way it's shared, the way I've written it down, yeah, but some version of that is probably the easiest thing to implement, to start to change or start to recognize different perspectives, start to open up the conversation so there is less bias and there are fewer assumptions that are not

Amy Riley: spoken about.

Yeah, I love it.

I think that is a great practical piece of guidance for leaders to start that individual reflection written down.

Everybody shares it, and then stop the stuff of where, oh, it's Amy's ideas and it's Sandy's idea and it's name the idea by the idea.

Yes, right.

We're not creating camps here.

Yes, yeah, exactly.

Celine, thank you so much for talking about this critical skill of critical thinking with me on the podcast today.

Really appreciate your time and your thoughts on this.

Céline Williams: It is my pleasure.

Thank you for having me.

I love talking about it, so it's greatly appreciated.

Amy Riley: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast.

If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the Courage of a Leader website at www.courageofaleader.com I'd love to hear from you.

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Until next time, be bold and be brave, because you've got the courage of a leader.