Sam Abuelsamid (00:01) This is episode 427 of Wheel Bearings. I am Sam Abuelsamid from Telemetry. Roberto Baldwin (00:07) I am Roberto Baldwin from SAE International. Craig Cole (00:11) And I guess I'm Craig Cole with multiple outlets, but let's just say auto-esoterica on YouTube. Sam Abuelsamid (00:17) Craig, thank you for joining us today. Nicole, I think, is in Mexico this weekend. She was at the Baja 1000. And ⁓ so I appreciate you taking the time to step in and join us today. Craig Cole (00:33) I appreciate the invite. I've never been on the show before. I hear good things. We'll see if those are lies or not. But glad to be here. Sam Abuelsamid (00:37) Yeah, well, I mean, you Roberto Baldwin (00:40) Most of them are lies. Sam Abuelsamid (00:42) you you had me on your former show a couple of times. So, you know, figured a good time to return the favor. Tell us, tell tell the audience who may not be familiar with who Craig Cole is. ⁓ Who the hell are you? Craig Cole (00:55) That's a good question. I ask myself that all the time. So what is Are you done with the interrogatives? When is Craig Cole? Roberto Baldwin (00:56) Who is Craig Cole? What is Craig Cole? How is Craig Cole? Sam Abuelsamid (00:58) What is Craig cool? How is Craig cool? Roberto Baldwin (01:05) Where Sam Abuelsamid (01:06) There you Roberto Baldwin (01:06) is Craig? Sam Abuelsamid (01:07) go. Craig Cole (01:08) ⁓ So yeah, I have covered, I've worked in automotive media for damn near 20 years now. I've known you for many of those years, Sam, but I've worked at a number of publications. do everything, feature stories, news articles, first drives. I've done it all in the business. ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (01:14) you for many of Craig Cole (01:28) mostly covering, trying to get our own YouTube channel up and running now, which believe it or not is very hard. So it's called Auto Esoterica. We try to focus more on like classic cars and stuff. Kind of what we feel is a bit of an underserved market these days with quality content at least. So that's, that's sort of the background on me. I've, I've, I've been there. I've done that and I'm here now. So thank you again. Yes. Sam Abuelsamid (01:29) get our feels a bit of an underserved market these days. sort of the background on me. I've been there. I've done Roberto Baldwin (01:52) Craig is a man lost in time. Sam Abuelsamid (01:54) that. He certainly is. ⁓ What? What? What? mean, you've got some, at least, at least one ⁓ interesting old car. I'm not sure if you have other ones. Tell us about what you've got in your garage. Craig Cole (01:57) in more ways than one. Well, I've got one and a half interesting old cars, as I say right now. So I've got a, full old car is a 1936 Ford V8, completely restored. did that with my dad, frame off, everything, ⁓ which required so much welding and metal work and finishing, but super satisfying. The car drives like a brand new 90 year old vehicle, which is terrifying, but because if you've never driven a car that old, you don't. Sam Abuelsamid (02:11) Okay. Craig Cole (02:39) Appreciate how far things have come ⁓ Because it's like a tractor that'll do a hundred miles an hour. It's it's it's something if you've never experienced that Surprisingly modern in some ways too. Like the powertrain is super smooth. The clutch pedal feels great But also then the handling is nautical the brakes are not good I've never driven a car with more body roll ever So if you haven't driven it Sam, we'll to get you in the driver's seat sometime Sam Abuelsamid (02:56) handling is nautical. I've never driven a car with more body roll, ever. So if you haven't driven a Sam... Yeah, I haven't driven yours. I think the oldest thing that I've driven was ⁓ like a first generation Chevy Silverado or not Silverado suburban. ⁓ Some years back, ⁓ GM was doing a thing to celebrate I think the 75th anniversary of the suburban and they brought out a bunch of the different generations and they did this out of Belle Isle and got to ⁓ Craig Cole (03:32) Nice. Sam Abuelsamid (03:33) get a little time behind the wheel of that first generation one, which was, let's see, that would have been around about the same time, yeah, early 30s, early mid 30s timeframe. Craig Cole (03:40) 30s. Cause that's the longest running uninterrupted nameplate, right? In us history. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I've got. Sam Abuelsamid (03:47) Yeah, that is the claim, yes. Roberto Baldwin (03:52) I'm making my own cars. I'm a vampire Sam Abuelsamid (03:55) the Craig Cole (03:58) But yeah, I've got the 36 that's done and been drivable for maybe 10 years now. And I'm about halfway done restoring a 51 Ford crest liner. So I'm trying to wrap up the paint work now before it's too cold, which I may have failed at that. But if I get it painted this winter, I can start putting it together. So I'm very excited about that. And I just, just yesterday got the engine back from the machine shop, a two and a half year wait, it took them two and a half years. Sam Abuelsamid (04:03) halfway done with the story. Just yesterday, got the engine back from the machine shop. Two and a half year wait, but years, Craig Cole (04:28) But the machine work is done and I can put that together now when I get time. Sam Abuelsamid (04:28) the machine work is done and I can put that together now. That was two and a half years just to get the block and heads in that machine? Wow. Craig Cole (04:37) Yeah, to machine the block and balance everything. mean, they do it. It's a lot of work to do that. So they want to do a batch of flatheads. They want to do a batch of, you know, big block mopars. They want to do a batch of LS all at once. So they kind of wait to get enough of those to make it worth their time to do all the setup. And it was fine. I did not need the engine anytime soon. I still really don't need it until I get the body painted. So it's going to sit on the under the bench for a little while. Sam Abuelsamid (04:50) ⁓ yeah. to get enough of those. Yeah, right. Well, it was 65 out yesterday, you could have painted it yesterday. Craig Cole (05:10) Yeah, I should have. I'm so close. anyway, that's my story. I'm probably boring everybody. Sam Abuelsamid (05:12) I'm so close. ⁓ No, People love to hear about this weird shit on this show. We specialize in tangents and divergences. Roberto Baldwin (05:19) It's a car podcast. Craig Cole (05:23) Yeah, nice. Well, we can get in the weeds if you want. Roberto Baldwin (05:25) I don't think you're bored anyway. others. Craig Cole (05:31) perfect, then you can hear all about flatheads and mechanical brakes. Sam Abuelsamid (05:35) Awesome. right. Well, Robbie, tell us what you drove this week. Roberto Baldwin (05:41) So I drove something but didn't go anywhere. It's like one of those riddles, like from the Riddler or I don't know, your annoying third grade teacher. Sam Abuelsamid (05:50) So you just like sat there and did burnouts, you know, on a drag strip. Roberto Baldwin (05:54) I didn't move at all. So I, well, I moved, I flew to Poland to drive in a simulator at the ITS Motor Transport Institute and Autonomous Vehicles Competence Center. I know. So their whole deal is their... Craig Cole (06:12) Yeah Sam Abuelsamid (06:14) Do you now have confidence in autonomous vehicles? Well, confidence. Oh, competence. I thought you said confidence. Roberto Baldwin (06:17) I mean, competence. Competence. Competence. ⁓ So their whole deal is... Craig Cole (06:23) How can you have competence in autonomous vehicles when they're driving themselves? Roberto Baldwin (06:27) Well, Sam Abuelsamid (06:27) Ha Roberto Baldwin (06:29) it's the competence center it is a So the center is competent ⁓ so the idea is they they want to ⁓ create situations for folks who want to Deploy autonomous vehicles in Poland specifically for Poland ⁓ so they understand like Craig Cole (06:32) Okay. Roberto Baldwin (06:49) the in and outs of driving in Poland. So every, like if I live in California, Northern California and Southern California, completely different driving styles. ⁓ You go to different states, completely different driving styles. The same thing in different countries. ⁓ Everyone drives a little bit different. There are different rules, but there's also just the vibe, I guess, as the kids would say, ⁓ as to how people drive. So... Sam Abuelsamid (07:02) the same thing in different countries. Everyone drives a little bit different, there are different rules, but there's also just the vibe, I guess, as the kids would say, as to how people drive. So one of the things they've done is they've gone to like just 100, essentially the worst intersection, the most dangerous intersections, and recorded a lot of data with lidar, radar, et cetera. Roberto Baldwin (07:16) One of the things they've done is they've gone to like the hundred, essentially the worst intersections or the most dangerous intersections and recorded a lot of data with LiDAR, radar, et cetera, to help create some simulations. So when people come over and they're like, we want to deploy this car. They're like, okay, here are the simulations that you can use to help deploy your autonomous vehicle in Poland. ⁓ And also they work on, there's like a lot of echo. Sam Abuelsamid (07:27) help create simulations so when people come over and they're like we want to deploy this car they're like okay here are these simulations that you can use to help deploy your autonomous vehicle and also they work on Roberto Baldwin (07:45) Is that on my end? Sam Abuelsamid (07:47) Yeah, you're it looks like you're on the MacBook mic instead of your ⁓ external mic. Roberto Baldwin (07:54) Dang it, why is this not on? Craig Cole (07:58) Don't change anything, it'll screw it up on my end. Roberto Baldwin (08:00) I feel like this is Craig's fault. Give me two seconds. Do you me to do that all over? Craig Cole (08:02) It probably is. Sam Abuelsamid (08:08) No, I can fix that. Craig Cole (08:11) He has the power. Roberto Baldwin (08:13) It's not even showing up. What the hell happened? I go to Poland. Well, I'm not talking. That's why. Craig Cole (08:16) It sounds better now. He needs to go to the podcasting competency center, I'll tell ya. Roberto Baldwin (08:27) There it is. There's your problem. Sam Abuelsamid (08:31) Did you forget to plug in the microphone? Roberto Baldwin (08:33) I had to go to Poland so... Let's make sure my input is correct. Change change you son of Okay, well it's not letting me switch. Craig Cole (09:13) How is it still echoing if he's got the earphones on? Like it shouldn't be. Sam Abuelsamid (09:22) I don't know. Roberto Baldwin (09:23) That's very weird, it's not letting me select the... Let me log out and log in real quick. I'll be back. Sam Abuelsamid (09:33) Alright. We'll Craig Cole (09:35) We'll stand Sam Abuelsamid (09:35) stand Craig Cole (09:35) by or I'm seated, is that okay? Sam Abuelsamid (09:35) by our seats. that okay? Yeah. ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (09:38) Please, please. Craig Cole (09:42) Cue the elevator music. Sam Abuelsamid (09:43) Yeah, Craig Cole (09:48) So you did a bit of traveling, Sam. You were in Japan, I understand, a bunch of other places, you said? Sam Abuelsamid (09:49) let's see I've I've traveled every week for the last five weeks I was in Pittsburgh this week I Was that I was doing a panel at a conference in Pittsburgh on Thursday Had a dinner with Brian Selesky and Pete Rander on Wednesday night Craig Cole (09:58) Mmm Okay. Sam Abuelsamid (10:14) I don't know if you know who those guys are. They were the two of the three co-founders of Argo AI. And after Ford dispensed with Argo, ⁓ Brian and Pete and Brett Browning, their other co-founder, ⁓ started up another company, another AV company, that they got a billion dollars in funding from Softbank. Craig Cole (10:16) Not familiar. ⁓ okay. Mmm. Sam Abuelsamid (10:42) and they are focused on long-haul trucking, autonomous long-haul trucking. So we had a lovely dinner. there we go. That's better. Craig Cole (10:46) Nice. Roberto Baldwin (10:49) Check, check, check, check, check. right. Chrome was doing that thing where it's like update now, you whenever that pops up, they just, yeah. And as soon as that pops up, they just make Chrome worse and worse. So it stops just doing the things that Chrome just is supposed to do. Let me turn it, now I'm still hearing. Sam Abuelsamid (10:55) the Craig Cole (10:56) You mean every day? There's a bit of echo still. You can blame me, it's okay. Roberto Baldwin (11:11) Microphone's Sam Abuelsamid (11:12) I'm ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (11:13) correct. Sam Abuelsamid (11:15) not hearing any echo here. Craig Cole (11:17) It's not bad on my end, but I do hear an echo. Roberto Baldwin (11:19) It's annoying. I hate to try this. This can't be changed while recording. don't... Fuck you Riverside. Just like the town, fuck you. Craig Cole (11:31) haha Roberto Baldwin (11:34) Alright. Anyway. Sam Abuelsamid (11:34) Anyway, lots of interesting gossip from Brian and Pete. I was just saying that on Wednesday night I had dinner with Brian Seleski and Pete Rander. Roberto Baldwin (11:46) Oh, how did that go? Sam Abuelsamid (11:49) It was fun. It a good dinner. Apparently, I'll tell you one little tidbit. Brian was at Google with Chris Ermson, they were both at CMU together. They led the team that won the DARPA Urban Challenge in 2007. And then they went to Caterpillar to develop the autonomous mining trucks for Caterpillar. And Chris left first and went to Google. And Brian stayed on another year or so. Roberto Baldwin (12:02) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (12:21) finished the Caterpillar project and then went over to Google. so he, Brian led the software development at Google up until 2016. And then they both left after KraftJet came in and Chris wanted Brian to join him at Aurora Innovation, which is the company he's at now. But Brian decided not to because he did not want to work with Sterling Anderson. because Sterling is apparently quite toxic. let's see, apparently, and Brian still talks to Chris pretty regularly. Apparently for the last four and a half years, Sterling left ⁓ Aurora in May, or April or May of this year, to go to GM to become their new Chief Product Officer. Apparently for the last four and a half years, Brian, or Chris, and Sterling Chris is the CEO Sterling was the president and chief product officer at Aurora. They did not talk to each other for the last four and a half years. Yes. Craig Cole (13:27) Seems like a problem. I'm Roberto Baldwin (13:29) How does someone like that? Craig Cole (13:30) not in management, but I don't imagine that's good. Sam Abuelsamid (13:33) No. Roberto Baldwin (13:33) How does someone like, they were just like, you know what, he's an a-hole, but let's just keep hiring him in places. Cause I don't feel like that person's effective. I think they just fail into these leadership roles and everyone else just does work in spite of them. So. Sam Abuelsamid (13:41) Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, let us ⁓ resume. Robbie, what did you drive this week? Roberto Baldwin (13:56) Let us resume. So I, ⁓ I flew to Poland where I drove, well, not drove, sort of drove. Essentially I just play, my God, this is why I feel like this is Craig's fault. Craig Cole (14:19) Hahaha Roberto Baldwin (14:23) Okay. Whatever. Anyway, I flew to Poland where I went to the ITS Motor Transport Institute, ⁓ for Autonomous Vehicles Competence Center for Poland. The idea is that they want to make sure that when people or companies deploy autonomous vehicles in Poland, that they work. That's, let's just, you know. Sam Abuelsamid (14:49) seem like a reasonable goal. Roberto Baldwin (14:51) Yeah, it seems like it's something you should be doing. You should make sure that when you deploy something, it works. I know that's hard for a lot of companies, but... ⁓ At least for one. So I flew there and one of their deals is they set up scenarios and really difficult... I'm sorry, they record scenarios in difficult intersections so they can... ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (15:02) least for at least for one particular company. Roberto Baldwin (15:17) give them to automakers or companies who want to deploy autonomous vehicles in their country to help them train those systems. And they also work to see how humans and vehicles interact. And one of ways they do that is they have two simulators. They have one for large trucks, semi trucks, and they have one for just vehicles, regular old cars. I could have driven the regular old car. Sam Abuelsamid (15:47) Anybody can do that. Roberto Baldwin (15:49) No. So, Craig Cole (15:50) Why would you do that? Roberto Baldwin (15:51) yeah, anyone can drive a regular old car. So instead, what I did is I drove the giant truck. And when I got in the truck, I was the first one, because I'm always the first to raise my hand for anything. ⁓ They threw all the scenarios at me. The woman who's in charge of the technology division of that, who runs all the sort of nerdy things. I mean, I also made a joke. that, yeah, throw everything at me, including a plane landing. So I got in a big semi, and it's just like, I have to take turn off the part, you know, the air brake, I have to put it in gear, I get to turn it on, all this stuff or it won't work. So I'm driving it, and immediately I'm going through a tunnel, and as I come out of the tunnel, she just turns on like a windstorm. Craig Cole (16:33) Wow. Roberto Baldwin (16:44) So I come out of the tunnel, so BWAH! It was not windy before I went into the tunnel. It wasn't rainy. suddenly, so now I'm like trying not to hit the divider, which fortunately I was able to not wreck the fake semi-truck that I was driving. I drove a little while. Craig Cole (16:59) Would you get fake points on your license if you did? Roberto Baldwin (17:01) I think so. Like, on my fake license. So, if I try it... Craig Cole (17:03) Yeah, well, you're fake license basically international driving license, Useless. Roberto Baldwin (17:07) Yeah, the Interestful Driving Permit that we get from AAA. Sam Abuelsamid (17:08) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (17:11) I drove a little bit longer, she stuck a trailer alongside, you know, on the exit ramp, so I had to go around that in a very thin area. Then she just had a moose come out that apparently no one else saw but me, thankfully, because I was driving. Slowed down, around a moose, took a left turn. Suddenly a man appeared in the road. Kept driving. She had cars breaking. And so she's throwing all these scenarios at me and then she's like, hold on. I'm like, okay. And all of sudden the simulation goes dark and then boom, comes back. She's like, turn off the vehicle. I'm like, okay, goes dark, comes back up. I'm on a flight line. There's a plane coming at me. So now I'm going, oh my God, I'm trying to turn the vehicle on. And I got out of the way just in time before the, and I was driving a shell truck. So anyway, they use it to measure, ⁓ you know, competence and driving and scenarios and just determine like how people react to scenarios like that. Like again, like a moose coming out and, you know, running out in front of you, a person or yeah, a man sleeping in the inner state or a train or, you know, a 747 barreling down on you ⁓ as you wake up from some sort of coma in a gastroc. ⁓ Craig Cole (18:16) or a guy sleeping in the middle of the interstate or something apparently. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (18:31) So yeah, was interesting and she was very, she's like, is really, for us, this part is really the interaction of how people interact with their vehicles. And they do a lot of drowsy driving research there. They talked about everyone's eyes are different. So it's hard to create sort of a catch all for drowsy driving because. Craig Cole (18:32) Hahaha Roberto Baldwin (18:59) Everyone opens their eyes a little bit differently than everyone else. And of course everyone's tall, short, whatever. ⁓ And you what happens when you create scenarios. What was funny is she talked about how they had ⁓ a local, like morning news, know, morning news and they have the tech guy go out and they were going to have a scenario where they told them they would have someone stop short in front of them while he was looking at his phone. And he's like, well, it's not gonna work because I know it's coming. She's like, well, we'll see. And of course he slammed into the car in front of him. Like he just looked at his phone for a second, she, she braked the car in front of him and he just ran right into it. So even within anticipation, the idea of like, when you're looking at your phone, it distracts you just enough where you could, you know, there could be a horrible, you know, outcome. So don't look at your phone while you're driving is the one trying to tell you. ⁓ And even when you're anticipating it, that, that, that a scientist is going to. Craig Cole (19:48) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (19:56) When you know it's going to happen, you're still going to hit the thing. ⁓ So yeah, no, it was, was very interesting. I'll have a couple articles coming up on SAE about it. It was, you know, the whole trip that I, the reason I went to Poland was to sort of, you know, talk to their overarching, it's called a PGM, their Polish automotive ⁓ group, where they work with all these sort of small suppliers to help. them interact or work with ⁓ larger OEMs outside of the company. And, you know, we went to a company that refurbishes ⁓ large calipers for trucks, for large trucks, again, semis, know, class eight vehicles. And that was really interesting. ⁓ you know, again, we did some of the autonomous stuff and this was really sort of an institute. They get some money from companies, but they make a lot of their money by making sure vehicles are homologated for Poland. So they do, you know, that's how they make their money in order to take, so they can do the research for, you know, autonomous driving. And, you know, we all, think everyone listens has heard me go on and on about how autonomous driving is still very far away. Like true autonomous driving is not an easy problem to solve. But I think, ⁓ talking to these folks for them, it's more about safety, you know, driver and pedestrian and, you know, cyclist safety and making sure it works within their infrastructure versus like. the, we got to get it there as quick as possible for shareholder value. Which of course has never worked out. ⁓ No matter how many, it's weird. We just keep doing it. It doesn't work. I don't know why. ⁓ well. Craig Cole (21:26) Yeah. funny that. if like six people make a whole bunch of money though. Sam Abuelsamid (21:38) Well, I would argue that if your goal is to maximize shareholder value, then it has worked out remarkably well for Tesla. Because the entire premise of their shareholder value, of their market cap, is based on the trillions of dollars a year that they're going to make from robo-taxis any minute now. If you take that out of the equation, Tesla would have a shareholder value maybe Craig Cole (22:00) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (22:00) Any minute. Sam Abuelsamid (22:08) you know, 10, 15 billion dollars, you know, equivalent to, you know, any other automaker that sells, you know, one and a half to two million cars a year. It would not have, you know, a trillion plus dollar valuation. it has worked for, yeah, it has worked for shareholder value. Craig Cole (22:23) They're making robots too, right? Roberto Baldwin (22:28) Yeah, I mean, that's, I yeah, I mean, it's a Tesla is a, you know, it's a meme stock. It's value is not set to anything that's real. But it's got, it has intrinsic value because it has intrinsic value. It's like NFTs. Remember NFTs or the monkeys? Remember the monkeys or Beanie Babies? Like they had value because they had value. And just because everyone's just this. Craig Cole (22:28) And they're gonna come out with that roadster like seven years ago. So like any minute now. Sam Abuelsamid (22:46) Yeah. because people thought it had value. But I mean, to some degree, every stock is like that. Roberto Baldwin (22:54) Yeah. So everyone just, yeah, everything has value because there's, there's the, if you look at what's backing up the value of that stock, it's not in reality. I mean, in the stock, also the stock market is not a real thing most of the time. I mean, I, I've, worked in, yeah, I mean, I think we all cover tech and a thousand, you know, the death of a thousand unicorns, like companies that were working, you know, billions of dollars that didn't really have. Sam Abuelsamid (23:09) Yeah, the stock market these days is just a casino. Roberto Baldwin (23:24) business plan or an actual product that more than you know 20,000 people who didn't know how to like do their own you know laundry Craig Cole (23:33) ⁓ no, we're going to disrupt the kitchen utensil industry. have a game changing new lawn care product, whatever. Yes. Yes. Correct. Correct. Roberto Baldwin (23:38) Yeah, we're gonna make a juicer. Here's a $700 juicer that's really just squeezing juice that's already been squeezed. Sam Abuelsamid (23:39) You know I I know I certainly need a humanoid robot to load the dishes into my dishwasher. Yeah, because I cannot take 30 seconds to do that on my own. Craig Cole (23:57) no, Roberto Baldwin (23:57) No. Well, they need it. Craig Cole (23:57) no no, you're too busy Sam. You've gotta edit this show for instance. Sam Abuelsamid (23:59) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (24:01) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (24:01) Exactly. Yeah. The show would never get out if I didn't, you know, if I didn't have a humanoid robot to load the dishwasher. Roberto Baldwin (24:06) the dishwasher, which is such a thing. It's one. It's yeah. Craig Cole (24:09) Did you guys see the clip of the one robot the guy, I forget the guy, he has a YouTube channel. He bought one of those, some robot and he was trying to have it cook eggs in the kitchen. was such a, it was just a complete disaster. I forget the guy's name. He's got a YouTube channel. But it, but. Roberto Baldwin (24:19) no. I'd be terrified. take me, fire, cause fire. That's the only reason I'd be terrified. Like everything else. Craig Cole (24:29) Well, the robot spilled the eggs and then it slipped on the eggs and it's trying to catch itself and then it falls over and it makes just a colossal mess. Hilarious if you haven't seen it. Roberto Baldwin (24:37) So it's Mr. Sam Abuelsamid (24:37) I'll Roberto Baldwin (24:39) Bean. The robot is Mr. Bean. Sam Abuelsamid (24:39) have to look for that one, but I did see a clip from a Russian company that brought out their first robot the other day ⁓ and came out onto the stage and immediately face planted and then everybody's trying to pull curtains around it. Craig Cole (24:47) yes. Yeah, it just. They had this black fabric they brought out to try and hide it. And it was twisted in the middle so it couldn't block anything. Sam Abuelsamid (24:59) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (25:03) It's, I, I, I don't understand the desire for the humanoid robot outside of, know, because we all watch the Jetsons because there are, yeah, I think there's, it's like the flying car. Remember for a couple of years, they're going to have a flying car. like, well, first of all, flying cars don't exist because a car and a flying machine are two, you know, very different things. And I, know, you've driven on the road as a listener. You know how those people are. Do you want to be in the sky with those folks? Sam Abuelsamid (25:11) That's pretty much it, I think. Craig Cole (25:13) Yeah. ⁓ yeah. No. No, no. Sam Abuelsamid (25:33) No. Roberto Baldwin (25:33) I mean, there's, you know, there's a reason the FAA has like, you know, pilot's license and, you know, it's, but it's still, at the end of the day, it's still just a very nice helicopter. It's a helicopter with redundancies, which I'm like, okay, cool. Just say that's what it is. It's a Evatol, it's a helicopter with redundancies. Fine. Don't call it a flying car. For the love of Pete. Craig Cole (25:41) but it'll be autonomous and flying. Sam Abuelsamid (25:58) Well, and if it flies, it's also not a car. It's an aircraft. Roberto Baldwin (26:01) Yeah, it's exactly flying car. Stop it, P. Sam Abuelsamid (26:04) It may be a drivable aircraft, but it's not a flying car. Craig Cole (26:08) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (26:08) Like no one's driving their Ford Escort and then taking off at the local airport to land at LAX. Sam Abuelsamid (26:12) ⁓ And if you've ever seen one of these EV TOLs, ⁓ these things are, I mean, if you think a Hummer EV is large, or a heavy duty pickup truck, these things are huge. They're enormous. There is no way that they could ever drive. Roberto Baldwin (26:28) They're massive. Craig Cole (26:29) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (26:31) Yeah. They're just knocking over signs. It's like, like when they moved the Challenger through a town and they have to take, they have to like uproot trees and move traffic signs when they moved the, I think one of the space shuttles through LA, they had like essentially take apart the infrastructure so it could go through town. It's like that. You know, if you want something that carries more than two people. Sam Abuelsamid (26:35) Yeah. It's hard enough just finding a place for them to land and take off. Craig Cole (26:47) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (26:48) Yeah. Craig Cole (26:56) Mm-hmm. Well, you get the Cadillac one that was just like a wheelchair that was with a bunch of fans on it, right? Yeah. It was still huge. Roberto Baldwin (26:56) And even when they're just just kidding. Sam Abuelsamid (27:02) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (27:02) That seems, yeah, it's a little, yeah. It's, yeah, it's still very, very large. anyway, no flying cars. Sam Abuelsamid (27:11) So, so, so the back to the simulator. Was this a full motion dynamic simulator that moved around so you feel the forces? Roberto Baldwin (27:18) It did. It did. It moved around. ⁓ The brakes were a little... They didn't... And they were very upfront about it. The brakes are not like one-to-one with the physics of a loaded ⁓ semi. they're like, that's not really the point right now. The point is like how people react to things. ⁓ So you would stop short. actually you had the advantage, but apparently most people don't see the moose. Cause you're coming out, you're going by the trees and the person in the simulator with me who was like watching just, just sitting there, I'm like, moose. I slowed down and went around the moose. like, I didn't even see the moose until it was too late. So, yeah. So it's the, Sam Abuelsamid (27:48) Ha Craig Cole (28:00) You Sam Abuelsamid (28:03) I mean, having encountered moose on the road in northern Sweden many years ago, the only reason I didn't hit the moose is because I was far enough away from it. It was actually two moose that came running out of the woods, came running out of the trees on one side. Yeah. They came running out of the trees on one side of the road, ran across the road and Roberto Baldwin (28:18) There's tall- they come out of trees and they're as tall as trees. It's like a tree just decided to move. Craig Cole (28:25) You Sam Abuelsamid (28:31) ⁓ Like I said, the only reason I didn't hit them is because I was far enough away when I saw them. But if I had been closer, there's no way I could have averted them. Roberto Baldwin (28:44) Yeah, no, they just kind of, they're so, and you're like, well, they're so big, but they're the same color as trees, man. Because they're trying to hide from wolves. And then suddenly one of the trees is like, hey, I'm in the road. Sam Abuelsamid (28:50) Mm-hmm. Craig Cole (28:56) Mm-hmm Sam Abuelsamid (28:56) And their legs and their antlers are like trees, you know, it looks like a tree trunk. Roberto Baldwin (29:00) Yeah, they're just it Craig Cole (29:00) yeah. Roberto Baldwin (29:01) looks like a tree and even the little flying squirrel friend that they always have with them They don't help because they're so small Craig Cole (29:04) Ha ha ha. Sam Abuelsamid (29:06) Yeah, it's hard to see those little squirrels. So, so are they ⁓ they're also making this simulator ⁓ available for ⁓ for AV companies that want to test on scenarios recorded from Polish roads? that also what they're doing there? Roberto Baldwin (29:09) Mm-hmm. I you know, I think they would it loud. They understand that there's still pretty early days with this and they understand that, you know, AVs are still pretty far off. I mean, really, you know, we have one level three vehicle on the road and it's, you know, it's Geofence, you know, the S-Class, the Mercedes S-Class. And then we have GM coming in like two or three years. was at the event, they said the year like 15 times and I still can't remember it because I'd only gotten like a... Sam Abuelsamid (29:55) 2028. Roberto Baldwin (29:56) Yeah, 2020, cause I'd only gotten like 90 minutes of sleep before I got to the event after driving in the desert all day. So 20, 28. it's, know, it's, it, it's good to be, um, prepared for this sort of, or for this technology and a way that benefits the people on your roads. And you know, and again, mean, Mercedes drove around, they did a whole big deal where they drove around the world just to Craig Cole (30:02) Hmm. Roberto Baldwin (30:25) collect data from every region of the world and how people drive and how, you know, the local laws and line markings and signs and, you know, just the weird little, you know, the colloquial driving experience of driving in Japan versus driving in China versus driving in India versus driving in Detroit versus driving in, you know, North Carolina. Every place is different. And there's so many variables that these companies have to think about. And if you go into a region, it's helpful at that region if ⁓ someone in that region has already thought about that and already set up something so that when you, as a company, come into that region, they have data, they have training information, and they have simulators that allow you to at least get a sort of a head start. So they're not starting from zero in order to have autonomous vehicles in that region. Sam Abuelsamid (31:22) Yeah, because every place you go has got different rules of the roads, different road configurations. ⁓ Some places have roundabouts, some places don't. Here in Michigan, we've got Michigan left turns, which are a weird kind of anomaly. Craig Cole (31:28) Hmm. Roberto Baldwin (31:36) weird or they think or australia they have that weird turn that that you go to the right and then you take a left or it's they have a very weird turn in australia Sam Abuelsamid (31:45) Yeah, we have some of that here. That's one of the varieties that we have here in Michigan, especially for major thoroughfares, instead of making a direct left turn at an intersection, you will turn right and then immediately go into a lane and do a U-turn to go back in the opposite direction. And in some cases, you go through the intersection and do that. Craig Cole (32:03) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (32:16) do the U-turn and then come back and make the right turn at the intersection. some vehicles ⁓ that try to rely on cameras only for automated driving ⁓ have difficulty with that. Craig Cole (32:20) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (32:32) They talked, they have four LiDAR, six Radar, a bunch of cameras on these devices, their sort of test vehicles. They have one test vehicle that's kind of going out. ⁓ And they didn't talk, they just said, well, some companies do camera only. Craig Cole (32:32) brand might that be? can't imagine. Roberto Baldwin (32:57) And you know, lot of people have, you know, various opinions about that, which is, which is, which is, you know, sort of corporate speak for that's dumb. They're, they're not a corporation. They're, they're, you know, they're part, you know, they get funding from the government and from, you know, homologation, ⁓ you know, certification. So, you know, at some point they're going to have to work with, well, maybe who knows. but at some point, you know, they're going to have to work with some company that's probably going to want to try and come in with camera only, ⁓ autonomous driving. Sam Abuelsamid (33:05) Yeah. Craig Cole (33:05) Yeah Yeah? ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (33:27) And so, it's, you know, when you talk to actual researchers in this and people who've been following this, camera only is always sort of like, you want to do what? man. I mean, I guess it's like the robot making, it's like the robot making eggs, but it doesn't have the correct skillet. And it's got to use like a wooden spoon instead of like a spatula. like, this is what we got to do. Craig Cole (33:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah, just not quite the right equipment. Roberto Baldwin (33:58) just not quite, it's like one piece of the equipment. You got to pan and then it just falls apart. Craig Cole (34:04) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (34:07) Excellent. All right, anything else on the Polish simulator? Roberto Baldwin (34:12) ⁓ quick reading through my notes. No, I'm gonna say no, because there's just too much. I'm looking at the wrong, and I'm looking at the wrong, I'm looking at the wrong notes. ⁓ Because I changed over or something. Yeah, they're testing scenarios. ⁓ Let me make sure, six radars, four lidars. That's what their vehicles, yeah. And then a bunch, ⁓ a gaggle of cameras. and ⁓ a thermal, a thermal camera as well. Sam Abuelsamid (34:25) All right. Craig Cole (34:28) no. Sam Abuelsamid (34:40) That's a reasonable configuration. Craig Cole (34:50) What other sensors are we missing here? Roberto Baldwin (34:53) They had the high, I mean they had the high quality, they did, they had a microphone on the back, like the Mercedes system where it has the microphone so it can hear emergency vehicles. They had a microphone on there for emergency vehicles. They have the high definition GPS. ⁓ They didn't talk about it, but they had it. ⁓ Yeah, altimeter, barometer, barometer, yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (34:53) ⁓ microphones. Craig Cole (34:55) AM radio tuner or something. don't know. It needs an altimeter just in case. don't know why, but they should have one, a barometer. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (35:17) And of course, you know, six axis motion sensor. Roberto Baldwin (35:20) Yep. Oh yeah, there's gonna be a lot of mean, you think it's gonna, ooh, it's chilly, is it gonna rain? Craig Cole (35:22) No, no, we need a barometer before we need that. It's gonna rain Roberto Baldwin (35:30) It's the barometric pressure. No driving today. Too much, too much, too much pressure. Yeah. It's it's squeeze, but it's squeezing your arm the entire time. Sam Abuelsamid (35:32) All right. Craig Cole (35:35) and it has an integrated blood pressure cuff, just in case. Yep. Sam Abuelsamid (35:39) Yeah, I you know, I mean, we're just we're just we're just talking about the external sensors. I then there's all the internal sensors. know, you need multiple cameras watching the driver and all the vehicle occupants. You need to measure the the driver's heart rate and respiration rate and their blood pressure. You know, because if you have they start to get a little anxious. Oh, and blood sugar. Don't forget blood sugar. Yeah, you got to have a continuous glucose monitor in the car, you know, so. Craig Cole (35:53) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (35:57) They just put little sensors up your nose to check your oxygen levels. Yeah, if you, yeah, yeah, you don't want to. Craig Cole (35:57) Mm-hmm. very important. Roberto Baldwin (36:08) You get a little...peckish. Sam Abuelsamid (36:08) if they haven't eaten enough Snickers, you know, yeah. Roberto Baldwin (36:10) You got the peckish monitor. you're seeing a little peckish. Just pull over and get yourself, get you something nice. Here's a banana. Sam Abuelsamid (36:16) Yeah. Craig Cole (36:17) It's like an Acura first drive event. You'll have a little bag of snacks in the back. I just ate 20 minutes ago, but thank God there's a bag of chips and a Clif bar in the back seat. Sam Abuelsamid (36:24) Heh. Roberto Baldwin (36:25) We have a very interesting thing about Poland is everywhere you go when you get there, there's always a plate of at least cookies. And then they have like little sandwiches and little meats and whatever. every, we would see like two to four companies a day while we were there. It was was a whirlwind event. The sun goes down at like three o'clock. So I'm like, well, that was the end of the day, but everywhere you went, there was like cookies and candy and Craig Cole (36:50) Uh-huh. Roberto Baldwin (36:54) you know, something else. And so, yeah, I was like, well, they didn't want you to a hangover at all. And they're like, well, there's Craig Cole (36:57) They don't want you to get hangry. They don't want hangry media. Sam Abuelsamid (37:01) Especially after they made you fly coach from San Francisco. Roberto Baldwin (37:03) Yeah, that was another thing, but you know, complaining about getting a flight to Poland is... That's a whole other audience. I try to never... To real people, like regular normal humans, not to... Sam Abuelsamid (37:17) You don't want to come across sounding as too entitled. Roberto Baldwin (37:20) Yes, yes, you sound very entitled when you're like, I had to fly coach, fly to Poland instead of business class. And there's a lot of reasons why that's not a great idea, especially if you have a drive program. But I wasn't doing a drive. I was just in offices and doing tours and watching machines and driving simulators. I wasn't driving a car, so it wasn't that big of a deal. I mean, when I flew to Austria last year, year, that doesn't matter. Craig Cole (37:31) Yes. Roberto Baldwin (37:46) I flew to Austria to ride motorcycles. They gave me a whole extra day because driving a motorcycle is far more cognitive, it's more intense than driving a car. So they gave me a whole, so I just had a free day. I walked around, I went hiking, I saw a goat. I didn't need that in Poland. I wasn't going on any of that stuff. They could have just, we got there, I left on Monday and got back on yesterday, yesterday afternoon, so Saturday. Yeah, I was there for, it was, Craig Cole (38:04) No. How many days were you in Poland? Okay, so a decent amount of time then, yeah. Roberto Baldwin (38:16) three days of nonstop meetings and tours. I know a lot. Yeah, so I got a lot of stuff. I got a lot of notes. Sam Abuelsamid (38:21) That's a lot. You've covered a lot. Definitely, uh, I'll have to, I'll have to check out those articles when, uh, when they come out. Roberto Baldwin (38:28) Yeah, yeah, we'll check them out. very, it was a nice time. I ate a lot of meat and potatoes. And dumplings. Sam Abuelsamid (38:41) So very Eastern European. Craig Cole (38:42) And cookies and small sandwiches too, let's not forget. Roberto Baldwin (38:44) ⁓ so don't tell Poland they're Eastern European, they're Central European. That is a whole thing I found out while I was there. They hate Putin. ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (38:47) Okay. Craig Cole (38:51) ⁓ interesting. ⁓ they're grand. I don't blame them. They have rather a history with Russia. Roberto Baldwin (38:58) Yeah, Russia, they hate Russia and they, you know, yeah. Craig Cole (39:02) Yeah, the Russians have been there a few times. Roberto Baldwin (39:04) Yeah, they're not fans. Not fans of the Russians. Craig Cole (39:07) No, can't say I would be either, but... Sam Abuelsamid (39:12) All right. Well, I had a Kia EV6 again. I had the 2025 EV6 GT line. So, you know, this is, you know, for 2025 Kia did a mid cycle update of the EV6 just as Hyundai did with the IONIQ 5, which means that it got some, got, you know, some mild visual refreshes to the exterior, new, new lights in the front. some other minor tweaks and Probably the the most important tweak of all was they moved the charging port from the right rear corner to the left rear corner and Changed it from a CCS one port to a saj 3400 port also known as a Nax or tesla port They also Upgraded the battery they bumped the battery up from 77 kilowatt hours to 84 kilowatt hours but overall performance is about the same, got a little bit more range than before. you know, you know, this meant we had two EV6s here this week because we also own one. We own a 2023 EV6 Wind with their, not the Nactoy edition, no. ⁓ So we have, we have a Wind with dual motor all wheel drive. So it's the same, the same motors on there, 320 horsepower between the two motors. Craig Cole (40:24) Not the NAC toy edition? Sam Abuelsamid (40:38) slightly rear biased, ⁓ the rear motor is a little more powerful. The GT line is not the GT, the EV6 GT. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (40:46) So confusing and for no reason. Craig Cole (40:49) Arguably the GT line is better because it costs a lot less and delivers basically in the same performance I mean, yeah, you don't need the GT model and you get more range too, right because it's not quite as hard for Now question for the August panel here though. You mentioned they moved the charging port from one side to the other Where do you guys think the charging port should go on EVs? I'm curious Sam Abuelsamid (40:55) delivers all the performance you actually need. Yeah, yeah quite a bit more range. Roberto Baldwin (41:01) Yeah, yeah, you get my range. I believe it should be in the front because ⁓ there's still a lot of charging out in the world, including Tesla charging. It's in parking lots and every time someone has to back in, you're like, ⁓ it's... You know when you're pulling into the Costco parking lot and the guy in the Silverado decides to back his truck in. It makes sense it's easier when you have a large truck to back it in, but you're like, I gotta wait 30 seconds for this guy. Now you gotta do that, yeah. Craig Cole (41:22) Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Hehehehe Roberto Baldwin (41:44) when you just pull straight in, poop, poop, poop, plop, plug it in. Sam Abuelsamid (41:48) I personally don't really have much of a preference one way or the other. think, you know, the front having having it in the front panel actually generally, you know, works pretty well everywhere. It's easily accessible regardless of where the where the charger is configured. You know, like if you get a Genesis GV 70 or G 80 EV, they have the charge port in the now fake grill. ⁓ And so you can pull up to a Tesla supercharger. ⁓ Craig Cole (41:58) Mm-hmm. The grill, yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (42:18) you know, that has ridiculously short cables and still reach that port. ⁓ In the case of the EV6, on the IONIQ 5, they did not move the charge port because on the IONIQ 5, ⁓ where the charge port is located is actually in the sheet metal in the right rear corner. ⁓ And so they would have had to retool that sheet metal, that metal panel and everything. In the case of the EV6, the charge port Craig Cole (42:35) Mmm. Sam Abuelsamid (42:47) is you have the tail lamps that curve, you know, run across and curve down the sides and there's a plastic trim panel under below that. And so all they had to do is change the plastic panel and of course change the wiring harness. ⁓ So it was a lot easier for Kia to move the charging port to the left rear corner so that it's in the same place as it is on Tesla vehicles, which means you do have to back in to charge at a supercharger. but you can park in the correct parking space because of the way they're set up. So you're not taking up an extra parking space in order to reach the cable. ⁓ the press car that they delivered did have the charging adapters that came with it. Kia does not actually bundle those with the car. You have to pay extra for those. So ⁓ the AC adapter, Craig Cole (43:22) Uh-huh. Sam Abuelsamid (43:46) I think it's about a hundred bucks or so, 125 bucks. Craig Cole (43:47) So if you've got the J plug at home, for instance, for your level two charger, you've got to buy the adapter if the car's coming with Naxx, yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (43:54) Right, yeah. So, and actually I was just looking on Amazon this morning for one of those because tomorrow I'm getting a lucid gravity and I'm not sure if that one's going to come with an adapter or not. So, and it turns out, yeah, I know. Craig Cole (44:08) For the price of Dan will better. Roberto Baldwin (44:11) Yeah, it's like, well, should we give them the $200 adapter for our 80 something thousand dollar car? Craig Cole (44:15) Hmm, I don't know. Sam Abuelsamid (44:15) Well, the AC adapters are actually fairly inexpensive. You can get those for about $30 to $40. The DC adapters are more expensive because they have to have more stuff in them for temperature monitoring, things like that, because of the higher power outputs. driving this, the interior is basically unchanged except for they changed some of the textures on some of the surfaces. Craig Cole (44:23) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (44:44) I like the layout of the EV6 with one distinct exception. ⁓ In recent years, KIAs have had this panel below the center part of the dashboard, ⁓ which is a dual mode panel that has a couple of knobs on it. ⁓ And if you tap one of the icons on there, it will give you media controls. So you turn the knob and it changes the volume or changes the tuner. ⁓ And there's a couple other things on there and you tap the other icon in there and it changes it over to climate controls so those knobs go from becoming volume and tuner to the temperature controls and The first time I ever drove an ev6 it was on the temperature control mode and Yeah, well, yeah, I couldn't figure out how to change the volume with the knob I mean there there is a redundant volume control on the steering wheel but you know Craig Cole (45:22) Okay. Mm-hmm. huh. How do I change the radio station? Sam Abuelsamid (45:43) That's still somewhat of an annoyance that they didn't update. Craig Cole (45:47) It's super clever, it's a good use of space, and it's no different than the menu bar on your Mac. Right? It changes based on what program you're using. Sam Abuelsamid (45:54) Yeah, so it's ⁓ a clever idea that is perhaps more clever than useful. Yeah. Craig Cole (46:02) Yeah. ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (46:03) Well that's a lot of EV stuff. It's clever for the sake of being clever and you're like, stop it. Stop. STOP. Craig Cole (46:08) Mm-hmm That's what I like about the lightning for instance. It's just an f-150 It's just you you just plug it in and you go and drive it and that's it Yeah Yeah Yeah, it doesn't try to be something. It's not it doesn't Yeah Roberto Baldwin (46:12) It's, yeah, it's just an F-150. That's what I liked about Arcona. Arcona Electric is just the Kona, but electric. That's it. It's like, hey, look what I'm doing. No, none of that. Sam Abuelsamid (46:29) So, you know, otherwise, you know, the EV6 and the IONIQ 5 and the IONIQ 6, you know, are all mechanically identical to each other. EV6 is a slightly shorter wheelbase, but, you know, it's a different shape to it. I personally prefer the shape of the EV6, but I'm fine with the IONIQ 5 as well. But, you know, that's why my wife and I bought an EV6, because we like the way it looks. Craig Cole (46:51) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (46:58) It's a great car to drive. It's quick enough. know, with the 320 horsepower, it'll do zero to 60 in the low four second range. You know, it's got decent handling. It's roomy, know, carry five people easily. It's got plenty of cargo space in the back. You know, we during the summer, you know, we loaded up the paddleboard and beach chairs and stuff and the dog went out to the lake. So. Craig Cole (47:25) Nice. Sam Abuelsamid (47:26) It's you know, it's a it's a very useful vehicle. a it's a nice size vehicle. And, you know, that's the reason why I spent our money on this thing. Yeah, because we we think it's a we bought it twice. Yeah. ⁓ Craig Cole (47:36) Mm-hmm. You bought it twice, didn't you? Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (47:43) Car so nice you bought it twice. Craig Cole (47:45) Yeah, there you go. The advertising rights itself, but like the Hyundai Motor Group did a fantastic job with that EGMP architecture with which they've just expanded everywhere. Right. ⁓ but it charges very quickly with the battery design, ⁓ great performance, excellent refinement. mean, lots of room, like you said, Sam, super versatile vehicles too. like it's hard to fault any of those products really. Roberto Baldwin (48:11) Yeah, Sam Abuelsamid (48:12) Yeah, Roberto Baldwin (48:12) you gotta be nitpicky essentially. Sam Abuelsamid (48:14) there's not many EVs that will charge at upwards of 240 kilowatts and keep charging at that speed for most of the charging cycle. It'll stay above 200 kilowatts, well past 50 % state of charge. I have seen even at 70 % state of charge, still going 170 kilowatts. Craig Cole (48:24) and Wow. Sam Abuelsamid (48:41) ⁓ which is why you can get from 10 to 80 percent charge in 18 minutes with these things. Roberto Baldwin (48:46) Yeah, I've driven my my ionic five up and down the state a bunch of times and it charges very it charges quicker than it takes for me to eat a burrito from like 20 below 20 percent I'm like, ⁓ so sometimes even if it's 80 percent, I'm still eating my burrito and there's no one around. I'll just keep eating. I'll just be that guy. Well, I I see someone that I'm like, OK, if someone's waiting, I'm going to leave at 80 percent. I'm not going to be that jerk. But if I'm eating my burrito. Craig Cole (49:03) You'll be that guy, yes. Sam Abuelsamid (49:03) Ha ha ha. Yeah, if somebody's waiting to use the charger, then. Craig Cole (49:08) Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good etiquette Don't be the Chevy Bolt driver that takes the only 350 kilowatt charger And you're there for two days because you got it because for some reason you feel you have to go to 100 % No, don't do that Roberto Baldwin (49:14) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (49:15) Yes! Roberto Baldwin (49:22) Yeah. ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (49:24) I've encountered that person at my local Electrify America station. Craig Cole (49:27) yeah, yes. And they're sitting there for like three hours or I don't know if it's three hours, a really long time. Cause the car does what, 55 kilowatts or something. Roberto Baldwin (49:34) very long time. Sam Abuelsamid (49:37) Yeah, well depends. The original ones were 50 and then they bumped it up to a whole 55. The new one that's coming out ⁓ after the first of the year is 150. Craig Cole (49:42) Yeah, like, ooh. Yeah, okay, that's pretty much the standard, right? These days. Sam Abuelsamid (49:49) Yeah. So, you know, obviously now the the ⁓ tax credits on ⁓ EVs have gone away. ⁓ But what we are seeing is that manufacturers, a lot of manufacturers have ⁓ made adjustments to compensate for the absence of the tax credits. ⁓ The Hyundai crew, you know, cut the price of the IONIQ 5 by an average of over 9100 dollars. They cut the MSRP. Craig Cole (50:19) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (50:20) Kia has not yet cut the MSRP of their EVs, but they are offering some pretty spectacular deals. When I first checked a few weeks ago, ⁓ they were offering $9,000 rebates on the EV6 and EV9. ⁓ That is now at $10,000, ⁓ but that's only if you finance the car through Kia Financial America. Craig Cole (50:29) Thank Sam Abuelsamid (50:50) So they'll give you 10 grand off. So the EV6 GT line, ⁓ the Neroni for the one that I've got here in the driveway, came to a grand total of $60,740. And so if you go to a Kia dealer and you finance it through Kia, you can get 10 grand off of that. And then some dealers are also offering additional discounts on top of that. So you can conceivably get one of these in the upper 40s. Craig Cole (50:50) Mm. Sam Abuelsamid (51:20) ⁓ If you don't need the GT line, so comparing the GT line to ours, we have the wind. ⁓ Some of the things that we don't have on ours, we don't have the heads up display, that's fine, we can live without that. ⁓ We don't have ⁓ the glass moon roof, that's fine. Solid steel roof is fine with me. Craig Cole (51:43) I don't want, I hate moon roofs. No, not for me. Sam Abuelsamid (51:45) We've had moon roofs on several our last several cars, but you know when it came around this time It's like in recent years. My wife hasn't really used it anyway, so Don't you know we didn't you know it was no big deal not having it ⁓ The ⁓ the GT line ⁓ Comes with 20 inch alloy wheels You know our wind has 19s which arguably living someplace like Michigan is better because you get a little more sidewall Craig Cole (52:15) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (52:15) which makes the tires a little more resilient to pothole damage. ⁓ Craig Cole (52:21) And for all of the car designers listening, stop putting such big wheels on everything. Smaller is fine. To your point, Sam, you won't damage the wheels if you live in a place where the roads are bomb cratered. Also, ride and handling is way better, like the Silverado EV. Have you driven that thing with the 24s? It's terrible. It was not good. Unlike whatever the, what's the Trail Boss model? I think it comes with like 18s or 19s. World of difference. Sam Abuelsamid (52:25) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I have. It was not good. No. Yeah, yeah, 18s. I've got a trail Roberto Baldwin (52:48) Better. Sam Abuelsamid (52:49) boss coming in a few weeks and yeah, definitely. Roberto Baldwin (52:51) Better. Better. Craig Cole (52:51) Fantastic! You put the 24s on there, it just destroys it. I'm sorry, that's my little aside here. Sam Abuelsamid (52:56) Yeah. The GT line also gets a heat pump instead of a resistive heater, which is a little bit better in cold weather for efficiency. ⁓ And you get heated rear seats in addition to heated and cooled front seats. ⁓ But the wind also has heated and ventilated front seats. Who cares if your rear seats are heated? Let the plebs in the back suffer a little bit. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (53:23) That's where my dog sits, so they're fine without Craig Cole (53:23) ⁓ huh. Roberto Baldwin (53:26) the heated seats. Sam Abuelsamid (53:28) And then, know, the current on the 25s, the GT line gets heated steering wheel. ⁓ The wind does not, our 23 wind does have a heated steering wheel. you know, they did, they did take, you know, remove a couple of things, moved a couple of things around, did some repackaging, but overall, you know, they're, they're pretty, they're pretty similar in the, ⁓ in the most important ways. So. Craig Cole (53:57) but a 10 grand discount. That's huge. Are they making any money at that point? Is this a loss leader? Sam Abuelsamid (53:58) ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, so, probably not. Roberto Baldwin (54:05) I have asked, well, previous to this, have asked Hyundai. I'm like, so do you lose money or do you make money in each car? They're like, why would we lose money? We make money on our cars. No, they told me, they're like, we make money. We make a profit on our vehicles. What are you talking about? What's wrong with you? Why would you ask that question? Why would we make a car if it doesn't make money? Craig Cole (54:13) They're not going to answer that. ⁓ okay. Okay. Sam Abuelsamid (54:16) Yeah. Yeah, they have consistently said that these vehicles are profitable. Craig Cole (54:23) huh. Sam Abuelsamid (54:27) Of course, that's profitable at the original MSRP. Are they still profitable if they're giving you 10 grand off? Roberto Baldwin (54:35) Who knows? Or maybe they were mega profitable. Craig Cole (54:36) Maybe they mean their overall Sam Abuelsamid (54:36) Probably not. Craig Cole (54:37) lineup averaged out is profitable, but perhaps they're still losing money. I don't know. Sam Abuelsamid (54:41) It could be. No, no, they, mean, they have explicitly said their EVs are profitable. So, ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (54:46) Yeah, so up until now, Craig Cole (54:46) Okay. Well, good. Roberto Baldwin (54:48) we know they're profitable. Who knows what's in the future? Sam Abuelsamid (54:50) Yeah. So, Craig, since this is your first time on the show, one of our things that we do here ⁓ is we have a little contest when we do the car reviews of ⁓ guess the destination charge. Craig Cole (54:53) Yes, sir. Yes, Huh, huh, okay. Sam Abuelsamid (55:07) ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (55:07) 1200. Sam Abuelsamid (55:09) What was yours, Robbie? Okay. What's your guess? Roberto Baldwin (55:11) 1200, I'm just yelling things. Craig Cole (55:14) Oh, it's- I'm trying to remember what Hyundai Kia does. It's either like $12.95 or $14.95, I think. I'm gonna go $12.95. I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. Sam Abuelsamid (55:24) Well, you won. It's actually $14.75. Craig Cole (55:27) Wow. Wow. It's just a way for automakers to make another thousand dollars or more. Roberto Baldwin (55:27) See, you're a winner. Especially if you're an American article. Sam Abuelsamid (55:33) Well, it certainly is for the Detroit automakers. On the full-size trucks and utilities, we've talked about this before, they have raised the destination charges twice this year by $600. They went from, at the beginning of the year, was $19.95. Then they went to $21.95, and more recently, they went to $25.95. Craig Cole (55:36) Yes. It's insane. It's $2,600? Sam Abuelsamid (55:56) It is $2,600 on a full-size truck or SUV now. Yeah. Craig Cole (55:59) No, no, I'll go to the factory and pick it up myself. Thanks. I know it's unfortunate part. Sam Abuelsamid (56:03) you're still going to pay the $2,600, unfortunately. We've had this conversation way too many times. So that's the 2025 EV6 GT Line all-wheel drive. Craig Cole (56:16) nice. Sam Abuelsamid (56:17) All right, ⁓ let's get into some of the other stuff. ⁓ So this week, Kia took the wraps off of, they showed us the visuals of the new 2027 Telluride. ⁓ They are gonna officially unveil it completely on Thursday at the LA Auto Show. Are you going to LA, Craig? Craig Cole (56:41) I'm not. I'm sorry. Sam Abuelsamid (56:42) Are you Robbie? Roberto Baldwin (56:44) Nope, I have time off. actually have time off. I'm not going Sam Abuelsamid (56:46) Neither am I. Roberto Baldwin (56:47) to LA and looks like I'm not going to CES either. I'm skipping all the... I do all the weird little things like Poland and Austria and... Nothing. Craig Cole (56:48) You're not going. Sam Abuelsamid (56:50) Nope. Craig Cole (56:53) That sounds more fun than Sam Abuelsamid (56:56) Well, miss... Craig Cole (56:56) CES, I'll be honest. Sam Abuelsamid (56:57) We'll miss you in Vegas. Roberto Baldwin (57:00) Yeah, well, yeah, well, I mean no one's yeah, we'll see I someone might still like sneak up on me and be like hey, can you you Craig Cole (57:05) You might get hornswoggled into going. Just gird up your loins. Roberto Baldwin (57:11) I've been to CES, I've only missed one CES in like the last 20 years. That wasn't like, you know, pandemic. And so if I don't go to CES, I'll be, it's not going to hurt my feelings. Sam Abuelsamid (57:11) Ha So anyway, the Telluride, the 27 Telluride, obviously rides as before on the same platform as the Hyundai Palisade. And Kia did an event in Los Angeles, what, I think a week and a half ago at their design center. They brought some people in to take a look at this. I was not among that group. Did you go to that, Robbie? You were there? Okay. Oh, yeah, well, I know. Craig Cole (57:37) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was there. Roberto Baldwin (57:53) I went to it. Yeah, we were there. I mean, cool people were there. Sam Abuelsamid (57:59) ⁓ So what did you guys think of the Nutelluride? Roberto Baldwin (58:05) Okay. Craig Cole (58:05) It doesn't look better, I don't think, on the outside at least. Roberto Baldwin (58:08) It looks better in pictures. It looks better in person than in pictures, but that doesn't mean it's it's not as nice. The previous ⁓ design was better. There we go. Yeah, exterior. Craig Cole (58:18) Yeah, exterior wise at least. They made it larger. It's a couple inches longer. The wheelbase is extended a little bit as well. So there should be a good bit more passenger space in the third row, easier access back there as well. The interior of the Telluride looks fantastic. But the exterior, just don't, I don't know why. It's missing something. Sam Abuelsamid (58:41) It's definitely blockier. Craig Cole (58:44) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (58:44) And they said they wanted it blockier. They're like, because they're like, well, know, old SUVs, old, you know, competent SUVs are blocky. They're big blocky machines. So we made a big blocky machine. And they're like, okay, that's what you did. And they show us the X-Pro. That's what their whole, you know, the sort of off-roadish version of the vehicle. So, yeah. Craig Cole (58:57) Mm-hmm. Yeah, which looks particularly Spartan up front. think I'm hoping some of the more mass market trims ⁓ or mainstream trims will have a little different treatment up front, but the X-Pro model looks a little bare up front. Sam Abuelsamid (59:28) From the images that they released, ⁓ the more mainstream trims actually look even more Spartan because you don't even have, like on the X-Pro you have the orange or red ⁓ recovery hooks. ⁓ So you at least have that. You don't have that on the mainstream model. ⁓ Yeah, I like the current Telluride. Roberto Baldwin (59:42) lines. Sam Abuelsamid (59:58) somewhat less enamored with this one. ⁓ It's interesting. mean, the interior, like you said, does look really nice, but the exterior I'm not a huge fan of. ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (1:00:09) Again, it looks better in person than it does in the pictures, but it's not as good as the previous generation. And also, you know, I was talking to someone about this, what we like as automotive journalists doesn't always translate to what people buy. So many people, it's ⁓ like, sometimes the auto journalists get a very, very large heads about like, well, this is what I think. Ruff-a-ruff-a-ruff-a-ruff-a-ruff-a-ruff. Sam Abuelsamid (1:00:12) Okay. That's true. Craig Cole (1:00:23) definitely not. Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:00:34) Like we love this car. No one buys the car. We hate this car. 70 million of that version sold. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. any wagon we're like, yeah. And the consumers are like, man. Sam Abuelsamid (1:00:37) Yeah. Cat-Catalyx CTSV wagon, you know, with a manual. Craig Cole (1:00:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:00:48) Well, mean, the first generation Telluride and Palisade, I think a lot of people preferred, or lot of journalists at least, preferred the look of the Telluride to the Palisade. But the Palisade sold significantly higher volumes than the Telluride. So what do we know? Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:00:59) Yes. Again, crazy. Because the palisade looked, you know, the telly light worked better, you know, we can't control, can't... Craig Cole (1:01:10) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:01:12) But I guess they didn't tell you guys any technical details of this thing, right? Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:01:14) Nah, they didn't tell us nothing. Craig Cole (1:01:16) I mean, we can go to HyundaiNews.com. I'm assuming it's going to be the same. Sam Abuelsamid (1:01:19) Yeah, and just read the spec sheet for the Palisade. Yeah, I think that's a reasonable assumption. Yeah, Roberto Baldwin (1:01:19) on. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:01:26) so the Palisade ⁓ has a 3.5 liter naturally aspirated V6, we think about 268 horsepower, which ⁓ definitely feels a little underwhelming in that vehicle. ⁓ And then it was a 3.8 before, yeah. So the new one is slightly smaller. Craig Cole (1:01:43) Wasn't it a 3.8 before? Sam Abuelsamid (1:01:49) Um, you know, but the vehicle is bigger and heavier. I think it's close to the same power as before, maybe just slightly less, but they, um, the vehicle's bigger and heavier. So I would expect the same experience, you know, in the, in the Telluride. And then, you know, the other, the other thing that we would expect in the Telluride is the, uh, is the hybrid, uh, the, the, the next gen Hyundai motor group hybrid system, which, um, I got a chance to drive, uh, Craig Cole (1:01:55) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:02:18) or so ago in the Palisade. We went to Austin, Texas to drive the new Palisade. The hybrid system is really good. It feels much better than the naturally aspirated V6. It has a 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder. Craig Cole (1:02:35) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:02:47) And it's a different hybrid configuration from the previous Hyundai Motor Group hybrids. So Hyundai had kind of an odd, ⁓ unusual, unique hybrid configuration. So they used a combination of an electric motor that was embedded in the ⁓ six-speed automatic transmission ⁓ and a clutch between the engine and the electric motor. So the electric motor took the place of the torque converter. Craig Cole (1:02:59) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:03:17) They also had a belted starter generator, which handled the starting and stopping of the engine, did a little bit of ⁓ energy recovery, a little bit of the regen. Most of the regen was handled by the electric motor and the transmission. And so driving it, it felt more normal, natural, more like a conventional vehicle because it had a conventional transmission in there. ⁓ But it didn't have as much electrical power as some other hybrid systems. Craig Cole (1:03:35) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:03:46) So the new one, they get rid of the belted starter generator ⁓ and they added a second ⁓ motor generator unit in the transmission. So now you have the engine, the first motor generator, the clutch, and then the second motor generator. And the second motor is the one that does most of the propulsion. So when you're driving along, ⁓ Craig Cole (1:04:11) So that's on the input shaft of the transmission with no clutch. ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (1:04:14) It's on the input shaft of the transmission with no clutch, correct. And then ⁓ the first motor generator, it's on the output shaft of the crank, it's on the output of the crank shaft of the engine and the clutch is in between those two. And so when the clutch is open, then the system basically operates like a series hybrid. So the engine can, if you, ⁓ If need the power, if the battery is depleted, mean it's just smallish one and a half kilowatt hour battery, similar, typical of a hybrid. So the engine is gonna be driving that first motor generator, providing electricity to the battery, which then the second motor generator uses to move the vehicle. And that's low to mid-speed range. And then when at higher speeds, that clutch closes and it operates as a parallel hybrid with the. engine and both motors driving the vehicle. And it definitely, it definitely feels a lot better. It's 332 horsepower. Um, and, uh, let's say, uh, 336 foot pounds of torque, think. Um, something like that. And yeah, so we don't, we don't know the, you know, we don't know for certain, but that's what's going to be in the Telluride, but you know, it's going to be in the Telluride. Yeah. Craig Cole (1:05:21) Mm-hmm. I mean, it's gonna be in the tele right. Yeah. So this is, they did this whole system is completely different from what Ford and Toyota have done for patent reasons, right? Cause Ford and Toyota came to some sort of agreement, some patent sharing deal. I think they may have had some money changing hands as well many years ago, but basically their hybrid systems are the same with ⁓ the planetary gear set and the two motor generators. This is totally different then. Sam Abuelsamid (1:05:56) Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it uses a conventional six-speed step ratio, know, planetary gear set, automatic transmission. Craig Cole (1:06:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah, but still pretty efficient and effective it sounds like, so. Sam Abuelsamid (1:06:16) Yeah, mean driving the driving the Palisade we were in the Palisade ⁓ calligraphy which is the top trim level with the the two large wheels the 20 inch I think 20 or 21 inch or maybe was 22 inch wheels even ⁓ and that one ⁓ we averaged ⁓ it's rated at 29 miles per gallon combined ⁓ with all-wheel drive on the calligraphy and we got We saw an indicated 28. We didn't get a chance to fill it up and do a formal, but during our drive for about four hours, ⁓ we saw 28 miles per gallon with it, which is, yeah, quite good actually. ⁓ And the ⁓ base front wheel drive model with the 18 inch wheels is rated at 34 miles per gallon combined. that's comparable to what you get. Craig Cole (1:06:47) Yeah. Very impressive though, I mean. See those smaller wheels? Sam Abuelsamid (1:07:11) with a Toyota Highlander Hybrid, which is a fair bit smaller vehicle. ⁓ The Highlander isn't technically a three row, but the third row is very small. The third row in the Palisade and the Telluride is much more usable for adults. so I think this hybrid system definitely seems to work really well. It's very smooth. You don't really notice the transitions at all between Craig Cole (1:07:16) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:07:40) the series and parallel and EV modes, know, just, it just kind of all works seamlessly. ⁓ there's no jerking or anything. And because it's got a six speed transmission, also feels more natural. It doesn't have, it doesn't have the droning you get with a Toyota or Ford hybrid system where when you accelerate, it revs up to 4,000 RPM and then just sits there. ⁓ it's, it's a much more pleasant experience to drive this. Craig Cole (1:07:59) Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah. Nice. You're clever over there, Hyundai Motor Group. Sam Abuelsamid (1:08:08) Yeah, and you know, yeah, they are. know, this hybrid system in a lot of ways is more like the hybrid Max system that Toyota has on the Crown and on the Grand Highlander. ⁓ But ⁓ it's not quite as powerful as that, but it is more efficient than that one. So it's kind of a nice blend because that one also uses a conventional transmission and a turbo four cylinder. Yeah. Yeah. Craig Cole (1:08:34) Yeah, I think a six speed, right? With the turbo four, yeah. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:08:40) All right, so that's the Telluride and the Palisade hybrid. And then, let's see. Did either, I don't think either of you went to ⁓ the Dodge Charger drive program, did you? Roberto Baldwin (1:08:56) I'm invisible to dodge. Sam Abuelsamid (1:08:58) Ha Craig Cole (1:08:59) I did not. We had some other folks go, I believe. Sam Abuelsamid (1:09:01) I got invited but I didn't have time to go to that one so I had to take a pass but Nicole went to it and so she got to drive the Dodge Charger six pack on the tail of the dragon in North Carolina which is this stretch of road with hundreds of curves and Craig Cole (1:09:16) Very nice. I think it's 318 if memory serves in like 11 miles or something. It's I've driven it a few times. Fantastic piece of highway. Don't go faster than 35 miles per hour because the Blount County sheriffs will find you. From what I've heard, I haven't, I never had any trouble, but I've been told go slow. Sam Abuelsamid (1:09:23) Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. Ha Yeah. Well anyway, Nicole did get to drive it and she's got a write up on top speed. And so, know, this one, this is the first internal combustion version of the new Charger. You the Charger Daytona launched, you know, beginning of this year with EV only. It has not been a huge sales success. I think through the first nine months of the year, they sold about 4,500 of them. which is not great. Craig Cole (1:10:12) Oof. Oof. Yeah, that's... Is that the one where he was with the Dodge brothers? Oh no, no, no. No. Roberto Baldwin (1:10:14) You mean the Angry Tim video didn't sell it? Sam Abuelsamid (1:10:18) No. Roberto Baldwin (1:10:19) So weird. Sam Abuelsamid (1:10:21) That is the one, yes. Roberto Baldwin (1:10:23) It's very... We're gonna... I'm Sam Abuelsamid (1:10:26) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:10:26) like, jeez, I don't want to buy anything from this man. Sam Abuelsamid (1:10:28) Now that did not convince the Muscle Car fans to go buy one of these, which is a shame. Yeah. So when they did the backgrounder and gave us all the details on the new charger back in what I think April or so of last year of 2024, March or April of last year, they Craig Cole (1:10:33) No, no. Well, also the price tag too is in a big hell. Roberto Baldwin (1:10:33) Yeah, it was a very, it. There's a lot of working against that car. Sam Abuelsamid (1:10:55) They confirmed at the time and it had been speculated for a while that the charger would also be available with an internal combustion engine. And right now, you know, you can get it with the three liter hurricane six cylinder ⁓ at 550 horsepower. And it's it's quick. It's not quite as quick as the E.V. ⁓ But it's still I think it'll lose zero to 60 in about three point six seconds. ⁓ Craig Cole (1:11:02) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:11:23) You know, it still has, it's still all wheel drive only. Uh, so there's no, no rear drive version of this available. And this, you know, yeah. And you know, this, this is a big car. mean, it is a big car. It's, it's like sick, what? Uh, six or eight inches longer than the old charger and two inches wider than the old charger wide body. So, uh, you know, driving this thing on something like the tail of the dragon would be, um, Craig Cole (1:11:27) I mean, that makes sense with all that power and torque. Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:11:53) interesting because it tends to fill up the road. know, we drove it on some mountain roads, drove the EV on some mountain roads in Arizona last December, and it ⁓ was challenging to keep in the lane. Roberto Baldwin (1:12:08) It's a lot. You can land planes on the bonnet. Like helicopters. Put a big H on it. can have some executives picked up and drop. You can drive an Evatel, fly an Evatel, land it on top of the Daytona charger. Yeah, no, it's ready for our charger Daytona. It's ready. It's an aircraft carrier. Craig Cole (1:12:09) Mm-hmm. No, no, no, one of your flying cars you can land on it. Sam Abuelsamid (1:12:25) On the other hand, that Craig Cole (1:12:25) This car just... god. Go ahead sir. Sam Abuelsamid (1:12:29) size does mean that the backseat is very usable. Adults can sit in the backseat comfortably, much more so than in the old Challenger. ⁓ Right now, ⁓ I think that you can only get the six pack in the two door, but it will be coming to the four door fairly soon as well. And ⁓ it's also fairly certain that in the Craig Cole (1:12:39) Mm-hmm. Thank Sam Abuelsamid (1:12:53) not too distant future that there will probably be a Hemi powered charger as well. Craig Cole (1:12:58) I mean, yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:12:58) That's the one everyone's gonna buy. The least efficient, the worst power. But it says Hemi. But it says Hemi. Doesn't matter. Craig Cole (1:13:03) But the six is so much better on paper. yeah. There's something about this car too. It's very unattractive in photos. just, pictures don't do it justice. You've gotta see one in person. Every time I see a photo of one, I'm just like, hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:13:18) Yeah, looks like... It's like it's, even though it's really big, like any three quarter front shot makes it look smushed. It's, I think it's that little, that little bow on the, on the hood. Like if you don't see it in profile, if you look at front on a three quarters, it just looks like that front end is just smushed and weird. Craig Cole (1:13:27) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:13:33) Mm-hmm. Craig Cole (1:13:40) For me, the side view mirrors, the housings, just, they need to redesign those. They just don't, they just look blobby and melted. I'd like to see them a little bit more defined. Roberto Baldwin (1:13:48) They just found some off the market. looking at the reactor. get it. ⁓ Craig Cole (1:13:54) Exactly right. Get some fake portholes and put them on the fenders, you know, a little plastic Buick style. Sam Abuelsamid (1:13:54) Found them in an auto zone or something. Roberto Baldwin (1:13:57) They stepped into the zone. Sam Abuelsamid (1:14:05) I you know, especially in person, I do like the design of this car. I think it's, it's a good looking car overall. And yeah, it definitely looks better in person than it does ⁓ in photos. ⁓ The question of course will be, you know, will it actually work better? Because, you know, I don't know if you've talked to Nicole recently, Craig, but ⁓ she has, she bought a Wagoneer S which is on the same style of large platform. Craig Cole (1:14:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Sam Abuelsamid (1:14:34) It has not been a great experience. Yeah. Pretty much, yeah. So it has not been a great experience. ⁓ So hopefully, you know, the six cylinder version of the charger will work better. Craig Cole (1:14:35) I saw her post on Instagram, think. It breaks down every other week, apparently. Roberto Baldwin (1:14:42) Yeah, it's not. We'll see. See if it sells. Let's keep putting motors in it until something happens. Sam Abuelsamid (1:14:58) Yeah, let's see, where is it here? I was looking up the pricing. The 26 charger scat pack plus with the Hurricane maxed out goes for $70,000. And it's... Craig Cole (1:15:20) No, dead on arrival Roberto Baldwin (1:15:21) Scat Pack, Craig Cole (1:15:21) at that price. Like, come on. Roberto Baldwin (1:15:21) why? I still understand why they're like, hey, how about Scat Pack? You mean like a sack of poop? Like just... Sam Abuelsamid (1:15:28) Ha! Ha! You can't... They do start at $55,000, which is not quite as crazy. Craig Cole (1:15:32) It's a heritage-inspired name, come on. Roberto Baldwin (1:15:35) Come up with another. There you go, without poop. Craig Cole (1:15:38) Yeah, that's a bit more palatable, like even the Mustang GT is absurdly expensive if you look at the base price. It's just like Who why why? Why? Why? Also this Dodge no manual transmission, right? It's auto only Sam Abuelsamid (1:15:43) Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:15:43) Yeah. People have money Boooo Sam Abuelsamid (1:15:54) ⁓ Yeah, well they didn't have a manual on the old charger. You could get it on the Challenger, I think, but only with the Pentastar. I don't think they... Craig Cole (1:15:58) Correct. Yeah. Mm, Hemi, I thought. Roberto Baldwin (1:16:04) I don't, to be honest, don't think the Dodge people know how to drive a manual. I mean, they haven't had a manual for 100,000 years. Sam Abuelsamid (1:16:14) Yeah, you don't need a manual on a muscle car. I mean, you want to be able to brake torque it so you can spin it out. Roberto Baldwin (1:16:22) Me driving a, I don't know, that's 350 Mustang GT. It's got a manual. It's pretty magical. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Craig Cole (1:16:26) That was, yeah, the Shelby. ⁓ Yeah. It's, dare say, even some voodoo magic. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:16:35) ⁓ That you do? Sam Abuelsamid (1:16:35) ⁓ yes. That that that is my favorite Mustang of all time. The GT350. All right. Let's talk about the. Craig Cole (1:16:44) Yeah. Just the thing revs to the moon. But so does a standard coyote too, like those just rip. Sam Abuelsamid (1:16:54) Yeah. Let's talk about the Nissan Rogue plug-in hybrid. Did you guys take a look at these pictures yet? Craig Cole (1:16:58) Do we have to? Roberto Baldwin (1:17:01) I have not, so I've been in another country, ⁓ but I've heard rumblings. Let's see. Hold on. Craig Cole (1:17:08) I looked at the specs for this Sam, I have a question for you because you might have attended a background or something. Are they just taking the Mitsubishi Outlander P-Hev drivetrain and copying and pasting that to the Rogue now? Roberto Baldwin (1:17:17) look it's an outlander. Sam Abuelsamid (1:17:21) ⁓ It's more than that. They have literally just put a different grill on an Outlander plug-in hybrid. That is it. And different tail lights. That is literally the only changes. Yes. Roberto Baldwin (1:17:29) Yeah, this is an Outlander. Craig Cole (1:17:33) I guess they did. Yes, there it is. There's the Nissan badge. Because Roberto Baldwin (1:17:36) Yeah, this is an outlander. Craig Cole (1:17:39) like the Outlander Piav is a, it's a nice vehicle, I would say, nice SUV. It's just not very efficient as a hybrid. Like the Mitsubishi technology, they use their own drivetrain in there, right? It's like the 2.4 liter four cylinder, ⁓ but not particularly efficient for what it is. ⁓ Sam Abuelsamid (1:17:43) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's rated at 38 miles of electric range. ⁓ Yeah. In hybrid mode, it's only like 26 miles per gallon, which is not great. ⁓ So, you know, when I got the link to the embargoed information a couple of days ago, ⁓ I opened up the folder and I looked at this. Why? Craig Cole (1:18:00) which is good, but the fuel economy is... Yeah, it's not. Sam Abuelsamid (1:18:21) because they've been talking about this one for a while, that they're going to do a plug-in hybrid version of the Rogue. And I looked, it's like, this is just an Outlander with a Nissan grille on it. And actually just the top portion of the grille, like between the topmost portion between the headlights. The rest of the front fascia is unchanged. ⁓ And so I reached out to Nissan and asked some questions and they reminded me that earlier this year, Craig Cole (1:18:26) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:18:50) You know, Nissan announced some future plans. Among those plans are that the there's going to be a next a new new Rogue, a redesigned Rogue coming in 2026. And that is going to offer Nissan's next generation e-power system. So that's their series hybrid system that's coming to the Rogue next year. And the Rogue currently is built in Smyrna, Tennessee. Craig Cole (1:19:09) Mm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:19:16) and it's Nissan's best-selling vehicle in North America by a fairly wide margin. ⁓ So there's going to be an all-new Rogue next year with e-power. And the Outlander is actually built in Japan at a Mitsubishi plant. Even though the Outlander and the Rogue, the current generations, are on the exact same platform. They have the same dimensions, the same wheelbase, everything. They are, for all intents and purposes, the same vehicle. So Nissan could have taken the Craig Cole (1:19:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:19:46) needs the Mitsubishi plugin system, put it into the rogue that they're building here, except because they're already going to be retooling to build the new rogue in Smyrna, it didn't make sense. for 2026, there's actually two ⁓ distinctly different looking rogues. mean, a lot of the underpinnings are the same, obviously, but they're they're very different looking versions of the rogue. ⁓ And so what we have is the rogue plug-in hybrid is basically just Craig Cole (1:20:07) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:20:15) a regrilled ⁓ Outlander plug-in hybrid. Yes, the Rogue Lander. ⁓ One other thing that they did ⁓ remove from the Rogue plug-in hybrid is it does not have the Chattomo DC Fast Charging that the Outlander offers. When I drove the Outlander plug-in a couple of years ago, I opened the charge port door and saw Craig Cole (1:20:17) The Roguelander. Roberto Baldwin (1:20:20) Roguelander. Craig Cole (1:20:32) thank God. Sunset that port, finally. Sam Abuelsamid (1:20:44) You know the chatamo partners why why bother with this because even with the Even with the chatamo, it was still only 22 kilowatts Which means that it would take you know for just 20 20 hour or you know for a 20 kilowatt hour battery It would take you an hour to charge it anyway at 22 kilowatts. So why even bother with that? Yeah, nobody's Craig Cole (1:21:06) Mm-hmm Correct And and aren't aren't the chat about chargers in the u.s. Capped at like I want to say 50 kilowatts the technology can handle more but I think they're limited artificially here Sam Abuelsamid (1:21:15) Yes. Roberto Baldwin (1:21:16) Yeah, yeah, because there's nothing there's nothing to make there's nothing that's more just it's like there's no point Sam Abuelsamid (1:21:22) Yeah, well, mean, Craig Cole (1:21:23) Uh-huh. Sam Abuelsamid (1:21:24) the only other cars that have ever been sold with Chattomo in the US are the Nissan Leaf and the Mitsubishi i-Miev. And I can't remember what the max charging speed was on the i-Miev, but the Leaf, it was 50 kilowatts. So nobody ever bothered to install Chattomo chargers ⁓ with more, well, they would, actually, some of the Electrify America stations that have two cables where they've got a CCS and a and a Chattomo cable. They are 150 kilowatt chargers, but I think they will only put out 50 on the Chattomo cable. But it doesn't matter because that's all the car can accept anyway. yeah, you know, Rogue Plug-in Hybrid buyers, you're not losing anything by Nissan dropping that port. It's not, you know, there was no real benefit to it. But other than that, Roberto Baldwin (1:21:59) Chatham O side. Craig Cole (1:22:02) Mm-hmm. It's the Chevy Bolt of Japan. Roberto Baldwin (1:22:03) Yeah, it's not. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:18) Yeah, it is, it is literally an Outlander plugin hybrid with a different grill. Roberto Baldwin (1:22:22) for a year. Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:24) Well, no, I think they're going to continue to sell this at least for a couple of years. Roberto Baldwin (1:22:29) So they just had a bunch of extra Mitsubishi motors around. They want to get a hybrid into the market as quickly as possible. Put it on there and then next year we'll have our new system, which I drove in Japan. Yeah, think I can say that I did that. Well, anyway, I drove in Japan. It was really nice. Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:34) Yeah. Craig Cole (1:22:35) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:41) the e-power. Yeah. Craig Cole (1:22:45) ⁓ well you just did, so... Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:50) You just can't say what you thought of. Roberto Baldwin (1:22:53) Yeah, I think that's maybe what... Man, the embargoes on that trip were just all over the place. Every person you talked to gave you different answer and I was just like, my god, what am I... What am I allowed to say? Sam Abuelsamid (1:22:56) Yeah. mean, it will, it Yeah. Two years ago, Nissan did Craig Cole (1:23:03) That's helpful. Sam Abuelsamid (1:23:06) show us details of the system. It wasn't available to drive yet. But the next gen system is significantly lower in cost than the current gen and should be more efficient. It'll be a smaller package, so better packaging for it. And ⁓ it should be notably more efficient than the current generation because I think part of the reason why they never bothered to launch the e-power in the current generation Rogue because they actually they do sell it overseas with e-power. In the rest of the world, what we know as the Rogue is sold as the X-Trail. And so in Japan and Europe, they do sell the X-Trail with e-power. But if you look at the fuel economy numbers for it, it's only like about one, maybe one and a half miles per gallon by the time you convert from WLTP to EPA and everything. Craig Cole (1:23:33) Thank Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:23:52) Meh. Craig Cole (1:23:58) Hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:24:00) It's only about one to one and a half miles per gallon better than the 1.5 liter four cylinder, three cylinder. So it wasn't really worth it, but the new system should be more efficient. So we'll see. And then we also don't know anything about pricing on the Rogue. They haven't announced that yet, but it'll probably be somewhere in the 45 to $50,000 price range, same as the Outlander. Craig Cole (1:24:28) Mm-hmm. So not cheap. Good to know. Sam Abuelsamid (1:24:31) Yeah, no. ⁓ Toyota ⁓ officially inaugurated their first North American battery plant this week. They announced this plant back in 2021. ⁓ And at the time they only said it was going to be a $1.3 billion investment. Since then that has grown to almost $14 billion. And at the time that they announced it, they said that it was going to build, they were initially going to build batteries for hybrids. given how many hybrid vehicles Toyota sells and builds in North America, makes sense. ⁓ So this is a 30 gigawatt hour capacity lithium ion battery plant. But they're doing more, like most of the other plants of similar size of 30 gigawatt hours or so typically cost about four and a half, four to four and a half billion dollars. And this one is 13.9 billion. And it turns out the reason why is because they're also doing all the cathode and anode material processing. They're just getting raw materials and doing that material processing in the plant. Yes, and they're building the modules and battery packs there as well. So, yeah. Craig Cole (1:25:36) So very vertically integrated then. Nice. So it's easy to call CATL and have them send you battery cells, right? It's quite another thing to build the cells yourself to install in the pack that goes in the car. So good for them. Yeah. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:25:57) Yeah, and produce all the materials. So, yeah, it's definitely probably the most integrated, vertically integrated battery plant in North America. They actually started shipping battery modules to ⁓ the Georgetown assembly plant back ⁓ in June. And they've been putting them into Camrys, and I think they're also shipping them to Alabama, where they put them in the Corolla Cross Hybrid. and in the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid. ⁓ that's right now they've got the plan is for 14 production lines. They've got three running now. They're installing the fourth right now and then over the next couple of years they're going to install the rest. And this plant is also going to supply batteries for ⁓ Toyota's new three row electric SUV, ⁓ which ⁓ should be coming Eventually sometime Craig Cole (1:26:58) Should be coming eventually. Very specific time. Roberto Baldwin (1:27:00) Someday. Sam Abuelsamid (1:27:00) I think, well, the original plan is it was supposed to launch in 2026. They haven't said anything different yet, but my guess is we probably won't see it till 27 because I think their original goal was also to unveil it next week at the LA Auto Show, and they're not going to be doing that. So I think we'll probably see it sometime in 26 and launch in 27. Although some of us... Craig Cole (1:27:27) That would make sense. Sam Abuelsamid (1:27:30) Well, continuing on. Craig Cole (1:27:33) He nearly said too much folks about what I don't actually know but Sam Abuelsamid (1:27:36) Yes. ⁓ Tesla ⁓ is reportedly testing CarPlay. ⁓ Tesla has been, ⁓ along with Rivian and some other startups, ⁓ been avoiding incorporating CarPlay or Android Auto in their vehicles. ⁓ But ⁓ now they are apparently maybe finally going to give up and put CarPlay in there. Roberto Baldwin (1:28:04) Maybe. Craig Cole (1:28:04) Let's hope so, because why wouldn't you just use CarPlay and Android Auto? It's give your customers the option of choosing. That's my stance. Roberto Baldwin (1:28:12) Give the people what they want to sell your car. Craig Cole (1:28:16) Yes, and GM Sam Abuelsamid (1:28:16) So I take it you won't be buying a GMEV? Craig Cole (1:28:17) is going to learn a hard lesson, I think, with their products not having CarPlay in it. ⁓ That people are going to want that and they're going to go elsewhere. Roberto Baldwin (1:28:19) I do now. Sam Abuelsamid (1:28:26) don't know, have they actually learned a lesson from that? Craig Cole (1:28:29) Well, I'm assuming they're capable of learning, but... Roberto Baldwin (1:28:30) I mean, have they learned a lesson, period? Sam Abuelsamid (1:28:32) love it. Roberto Baldwin (1:28:33) That's an evergreen question. Sam Abuelsamid (1:28:35) Yeah. Craig Cole (1:28:35) Exactly, but I think they're I wouldn't be surprised if in like two years they're like ⁓ new and improved CarPlay is back in your Silverado in your GMC Savannah. We've got CarPlay. Roberto Baldwin (1:28:48) For reals. You can't take something away if you haven't, and again, I've talked about this, you can't take it away until you've bested the thing you're taking away, and they have not. Craig Cole (1:28:49) But we'll see. Sam Abuelsamid (1:28:50) Yeah. I think there's one word I would change in that statement is that you shouldn't take something away. You certainly can take it away. Roberto Baldwin (1:29:06) Oh, yeah, you can do whatever you want. Yeah, you can do it's your car company do what you want. a lot of people like I doesn't have a car play back. I'm like, what that's such a that is a decision that automatically turns off, you know, an audience of buying your car. Why would you do that, especially now? And I understand why. And then they got zapped for, know, essentially selling data without telling people. So now they can't do that. Craig Cole (1:29:08) Yes. Exactly. Only because they got caught though. Roberto Baldwin (1:29:36) Yeah, only because they got caught. yeah, I mean, the reason for not wanting card play isn't because they're making something better. The reason is because they have more data on you that they can sell. They don't want that data. They don't want Apple getting that data. They would rather have control of that data. But then ⁓ they got in trouble for it anyway. Craig Cole (1:29:47) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:29:59) So they can't do it for, I forget how many years they're not allowed to sell customer data. Craig Cole (1:30:07) good that they're trying it. mean, I support that fully. Sam Abuelsamid (1:30:10) Well, do you think that if Tesla adds CarPlay to their vehicles, it will do anything to juice their sales? Craig Cole (1:30:19) No, I think the brand is too toxic at this point for a lot of drivers. ⁓ Also, people are still, for better or worse, they're still lenient about EVs. I think that's partially why we're seeing this $10,000 discount we talked about earlier on some of Hyundai products, right? Or the Kia models. Just because they're not selling as well as they should be. And I don't know that adding CarPlay is going to move the needle enough for people. need, yeah, especially for Tesla. Roberto Baldwin (1:30:45) For Tesla? No. Maybe a little bit. There might be a few people, it's not, that's not. Adding something is fine, but taking something away is a completely different beast. That's where it comes in. Like Rivian, because people would argue with me, they're like, well, Rivian, Tesla, I'm like, yeah, but they never offered it. And so you already went into the, you know, their sort of social agreement was we're going to do this because we're going to do it better, whether or not that's true or, you know, whatever. Craig Cole (1:30:55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:31:11) But that was the agreement they made with their customers, whereas GM was like, yeah, we're going to have the, now we're taking it away. And they're a legacy automaker. And you're like, well, why? And you're not offering something better. Craig Cole (1:31:26) Because shareholder value. Roberto Baldwin (1:31:28) Share, Holder, Value. Craig Cole (1:31:30) They can scoop up all of that delicious succulent data and then sell it off to other people. I'll take a glass, please. Nice steamy glass of data. I guess it's in a glass. I don't know. However you want your data, you can have it your way. A data sandwich, perhaps? Data pie? Savory or sweet, though? Roberto Baldwin (1:31:33) Mmm, delicious data. Give me all that data. Data. Sam Abuelsamid (1:31:44) You Roberto Baldwin (1:31:46) Yep, as a gravy because, you know, Thanksgiving's coming up or a delicious pie, a data pie, a pumpkin spiced pumpkin spiced data pie. That's what they're. Craig Cole (1:31:58) Ha Sam Abuelsamid (1:32:01) All right. So Jeep ⁓ started making some announcements this week and they've got more coming next week that we'll talk about on the next show. ⁓ But the big thing that they announced this week was Jeep brand air drops. ⁓ They're going to do monthly special editions. mean, they have always done Craig Cole (1:32:01) Sam's like, I'm done. Sam Abuelsamid (1:32:29) They've long done special editions of various Jeep models, especially the Wrangler. And now to celebrate 85 years of quote unquote off-road domination, ⁓ they're going to be doing a special edition Wrangler every month for the next 12 months. ⁓ Starting with ⁓ this first one, which is the Jeep Wrangler Moab 392. A very purple ⁓ Craig Cole (1:32:35) Mm-hmm. Roberto Baldwin (1:32:41) Ooooo every month. Craig Cole (1:32:58) Hehe. Sam Abuelsamid (1:32:58) four door Wrangler ⁓ with this new Moab trim level that they're launching this year. ⁓ Craig Cole (1:33:08) I thought you were going to say new 6.4 liter Hemi, but... Roberto Baldwin (1:33:12) Throw a hammy in it. Sam Abuelsamid (1:33:12) Well, no, Craig Cole (1:33:13) And I'm making air quotes, new. Sam Abuelsamid (1:33:13) the 6.4 liter is old. The 6.4 is old and it's been in the Wrangler for a while, but the Moab trim is new and it's going to be coming to other Jeep models. But what do you think of this idea? Is this going to help Jeep to sell more vehicles? Roberto Baldwin (1:33:33) I mean, it's a huge, I mean, I think at the end of the day, these are all just gonna be different paint jobs after a while. You're gonna get two that have maybe some mechanical differences and then 10 that are just different paint jobs. Which if you can support that in your paint shop, cool. If it's stickers, whatever. It's, yeah, I mean, we'll probably get an 80s version. I think a lot of people love that 80s version they showed off at, I think, SEMA. So yeah, well. Sam Abuelsamid (1:33:41) Yeah. Craig Cole (1:33:42) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:34:00) It was at ⁓ the Easter Jeep Safari. Roberto Baldwin (1:34:02) Easter Jeep Safari. Yeah. So yeah, I think you're just going to see all the, a lot of paint, ⁓ which is fine. I mean, more graphics and weirdness on cars. Yeah. If you want to get it. ⁓ I don't, know, Stellantis isn't doing great financially, so they really can't afford to like go, you know, crazy mechanical wise with these vehicles. but it'll be interesting to see how many they, they sell. ⁓ and if you know, it generates, you know, they're, if they have a Supreme one, that's the one they should be building. Craig Cole (1:34:07) that if you want it, get it right. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:34:33) for old people who are really into the 392 Supreme. Something from 10 years ago. That's what it's always fun. When we were looking at the Dodge Charger, or Daytona Charger, it was like AC DC when you're driving. like, ⁓ I guess you know your customers. But ⁓ I don't know, man. Just listen to some new music. You gotta get people younger than 40 into your vehicles. Craig Cole (1:34:33) Isn't the 392 supreme? Yeah. Yeah, people younger than 40 can't afford groceries. So $80,000 Moab Jeep Wrangler. But this is. Roberto Baldwin (1:35:02) That's true. I guess, all right, so let's go back. guess ACDC worked. It should have been Metallica, come on. Even though. ⁓ Craig Cole (1:35:14) This is this this is very classic Stellantis and especially Jeep like whenever they run out of other ideas or something they kind of come up with a special edition model of something with unique trim or different wheels. Yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:35:24) Or it's the last year. This is the last year we're gonna make this and then the next year is the last year. It's like the who. It's always on speaking of old bands. Craig Cole (1:35:29) Exactly. Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:35:29) Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I mean, you the, you know, the final editions of the Durango Hellcat. I mean, that one, when they first announced it in 2020 for 2021, was, it was supposed to only be for one year. And now five years later, they're still making them. Craig Cole (1:35:38) Yeah. Yeah. I remember I had I reviewed that vehicle locally. I had one on loan and it was the last edition model model and I put in my review. It's the last edition until it isn't and my editors like no you have to what do you know did you hear something like no there but they're gonna make more well we better take this speculation out. Okay. Exactly. All right remove it if you want. I don't care. Roberto Baldwin (1:35:50) Final, final, final, final. Sam Abuelsamid (1:35:59) Yes. This is Stellantis. This is what they do. Roberto Baldwin (1:36:03) They're gonna miss. Stellantis if they're making enough money, they're like, ⁓ Just just keep making it and you're gonna anger Yeah, you're gonna make some people angry. But yeah Craig Cole (1:36:12) And then they kept building them. So who was right? This guy. Sam Abuelsamid (1:36:16) Well, speaking of making enough money, one of the things that popped up in my inbox this week was an email from GPR about the Compass for 2026. And for 2026, the Compass was supposed to be all new, but then tariffs happened and they canceled their plans to retool their Brampton, Ontario assembly plant to build the new Compass there. And then they spent Craig Cole (1:36:38) Hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:36:45) several months trying to decide what to do. And they finally decided to build it in Belvedere, Illinois instead, but not until 2027, which means until for the next two years, we still have the old compass that we've had for nearly a decade now. Last year, like in 2024, end of 23, early 24, when Antonio Folosa, who's now CEO of Stellantis, the whole company was brought in to run Jeep after Christian Mounier was departed. One of the first things he did was he started cutting prices on Jeep models because he said they're too expensive. This is part of why the sales were down, so they're too expensive. one of the big things he talked about was we've slashed the price on the Compass. It's down to only, it's under $27,000 now. And if you look at jeep.com, go to the build and price, it still shows the price is $26,990 for the 2025 Jeep Compass. Craig Cole (1:37:23) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:37:43) Well, looking at the what's new release for 2026 for the compass, it now starts at 30,000, 990. So it went up by $4,000 for the yeah, for the most affordable model. Craig Cole (1:37:52) Oh, a mere 4,000, okay. Roberto Baldwin (1:37:55) That's nothing. With a, don't forget the delivery charge, which is probably. Craig Cole (1:38:02) And wait, Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:02) Yeah, which Craig Cole (1:38:03) that's Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:03) is Craig Cole (1:38:03) for the same model. me see here. Yeah, 26900 to 30,990. No, thank you. Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:07) Yeah, for the... Well, actually the previously they had the sport model which was the one that started at 26 990 So the latitude was 28 765 and now it's 30,000 990 so it it went up by $2,200 for the latitude Craig Cole (1:38:19) Thank Mm. And what's the delivery charge now for $4,500? Have we hit five figures yet? No. Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:31) ⁓ Let's see, it's probably $2,000. Roberto Baldwin (1:38:37) $78,000. Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:40) Let's see, what does it say? Craig Cole (1:38:43) Ahem. Roberto Baldwin (1:38:44) Probably 1995. Sam Abuelsamid (1:38:44) This is the other thing that annoys me about Stellantis now. They've changed around the build and price sites. So now you don't just get a summary at the end that has everything. There's somewhere you gotta click to find it. Here we go. Roberto Baldwin (1:39:02) That's a trick. Craig Cole (1:39:02) yeah, like the Ford build and price tool, you've got to go into like the payment options and then switch over to cash. Otherwise, yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:39:08) from lease to finance, So Roberto Baldwin (1:39:11) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:39:11) 1995 is the destination charge for the Compass. Roberto Baldwin (1:39:15) Same for the Wrangler, $2,000. Woo wee! Craig Cole (1:39:22) And that's where they get you, You could ship it FedEx for less. Roberto Baldwin (1:39:23) That's where they get ya. Sam Abuelsamid (1:39:24) Yup. Yeah. All right. ⁓ One last item I want to talk about. ⁓ We have talked at some length here about EVs potentially being too fast. ⁓ Yeah, too quick. ⁓ Do most people really need cars that goes 0 to 60 in two to three seconds? Not really. ⁓ Well, apparently the the Chinese government Roberto Baldwin (1:39:40) Too fast. Craig Cole (1:39:41) Too fast, too furious. Roberto Baldwin (1:39:51) Nope. No. Sam Abuelsamid (1:39:56) has plans to do something about that. Because a lot of the Chinese EV startups have been creating some of these insanely fast EVs, ⁓ like the Xiaomi SU7 and various others that are two and a half or so seconds or 60 times. ⁓ And so ⁓ the Ministry of Public Security has drafted new national safety standards. ⁓ Craig Cole (1:40:22) That's ominous. Sam Abuelsamid (1:40:25) that would require manufacturers to have the default setting in the car for zero to 60, zero to 100 kilometers an hour, so zero to 62 miles an hour in no less than five seconds. So they can still have a mode where you can go faster, but that needs to be something that is specifically selected by the driver. Yeah. So. Craig Cole (1:40:49) Kind of like a launch control almost sort of. That's Roberto Baldwin (1:40:52) Yeah, so just regular old Craig Cole (1:40:54) a Roberto Baldwin (1:40:54) driving. Craig Cole (1:40:54) good idea. I mean, you accelerate zero to 60 in five seconds and you hit somebody, they're still going to perish. If you hit them in 2.7 seconds, they're still going to not be with us anymore. Roberto Baldwin (1:41:09) They have they have a- they have two and half seconds to get out of the way. Craig Cole (1:41:12) Yes. Sam Abuelsamid (1:41:13) Ha Roberto Baldwin (1:41:15) So, mean, that amount of speed, mean, most people, you know, they're not used to it. They don't understand how quick those vehicles are until they do it. And then the driver gets... I was in a car with somebody who we were doing, it was the Gigafactory launch or opening or whatever. And they were letting us use launch control on the Model S. Did it down, stop, you know, at the end of the road, there was just a road on the factory ⁓ land. Craig Cole (1:41:20) They won't know what hit them. Roberto Baldwin (1:41:45) You had to take a, cause it just ended and you take a right. Well, the camera person I had taken with me, they had never experienced this. And when they did it, they were so like mesmerized or taken aback or surprised or whatever. They didn't realize they didn't think about breaking. So I'm like, break, break, break, break, break. I we had to like snap them out of it to break. So we didn't go launching into the desert. That's how fast these systems are because they, sort of break your brain. If you're not used to it, you're like, wow. Craig Cole (1:42:09) Yikes. Roberto Baldwin (1:42:14) And so the idea that just your average person is launching, you know, an SUV or, you know, because they're all SUVs now, down the road in their neighborhood in, you know, less than five seconds is terrify. Craig Cole (1:42:30) So this makes a lot of sense though. mean, five seconds is still plenty quick. Like you're not, you're not going to have any trouble merging on the highway. Yeah. But it's also kind of nice. I expected it to be much more draconian than that, that like, no, you will not accelerate to a hundred KMH faster than five seconds, but they're still offering that. You just have to engage, enable it. So yeah. Roberto Baldwin (1:42:33) Yeah. Yeah, it's very quick. Yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah, you have to turn it on. Maybe you to do a little like contract code like ABABAB up line, right? Sam Abuelsamid (1:42:56) And of course, every time you get in and start the car, it's going to go back to the default mode. Roberto Baldwin (1:43:02) Yeah. Craig Cole (1:43:02) Mm-hmm, just like regen in the Hyundai product Roberto Baldwin (1:43:06) It's level three, I think it's. Sam Abuelsamid (1:43:06) Yeah. Well, that one doesn't. Craig Cole (1:43:08) I want eye pedal, but it keeps turning off. Sam Abuelsamid (1:43:09) Yeah, at least. Roberto Baldwin (1:43:11) It always goes to level three, I think. And you gotta turn on iPad-el. Sam Abuelsamid (1:43:13) Yeah, it goes to whatever you left it at up to level three. So it won't go to I-PEDAL by default when you start it. And then there's also a couple other things in here. ⁓ For example, ⁓ the new rules ⁓ state that the manufacturers ⁓ of both battery electric and plug-in hybrids have to be able to automatically cut off power circuits ⁓ in situations such as Craig Cole (1:43:20) Mm-hmm. Sam Abuelsamid (1:43:40) when the speed changes by 25 kilometers per hour, it's about 15 miles an hour or more within 150 milliseconds in either longitudinal or lateral directions. So basically, if you have had some sudden deceleration due to impacting something. Roberto Baldwin (1:43:57) If you've hit or been hit by something, it's gonna disconnect everything. Craig Cole (1:43:57) Okay. Yeah, I don't know how else you would drop 25 kilometers per hour in 150 milliseconds unless there's an impact involved. Sam Abuelsamid (1:44:06) You've got some really big honking brakes. You got some Formula One brakes on your EV. Craig Cole (1:44:09) Brimbo. ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (1:44:09) Yeah. I got those Brembo like, you know, 26 inch brake calipers. They're larger than the wheels. They actually, they sit on the outside of the car. Sam Abuelsamid (1:44:17) Heh. Craig Cole (1:44:18) Uh-huh. They're larger than the wheels themselves, the new Brembo Mega Brakes. Sam Abuelsamid (1:44:21) Well, you know. F1 cars will pull about 5G's of decel. that's, yeah, that's a pretty serious braking performance. ⁓ And then, let's see, what else? ⁓ Craig Cole (1:44:39) It's kind of like the Fords used to have, they might still have them, the fuel pump cutoff switch, which a lot of other vehicles did not have historically. So if there ever was an impact, there was sort of a kill switch that would shut off the electric fuel pump. And sometimes those would get jostled or something and the car wouldn't start and you'd just have to reset it. So yeah, kind of the electric version of that, I guess. Sam Abuelsamid (1:45:03) ⁓ And then ⁓ and then the other thing was with batteries ⁓ It must be equipped with a directional pressure relief and pressure balancing devices with designed pressure relief channels alone so basically they've got to have a system to ⁓ Vent be able to vent excess pressure out of the battery so if their gas is building up, but outside of the away from the passenger compartment and then ⁓ The battery compartment must not catch fire or explode for at least five minutes after a battery alarm, providing passengers adequate time to evacuate. Roberto Baldwin (1:45:40) Bye, everyone. Sam Abuelsamid (1:45:40) So, I think some pretty reasonable rules. Craig Cole (1:45:41) Thanks. Absolutely. mean, it's smart they're not venting the battery gases into the HVAC system, so that's good. And five minutes gives you enough time to hopefully get out. Yeah. Whatever the 911 equivalent in China is, I don't know, but call 911. Roberto Baldwin (1:45:45) I wanna- Yeah, that's good. Plenty of time to get out, walk away, make a call, get an Uber or whatever. Yeah. The emergency services. I want to talk a little bit about the fact that I still, I think I've talked about this before on the podcast where there was a stretch road near my house where there are always car fires. It's all gas cars that I haven't seen. And there was another one like a week ago, the same stretch within the same like mile, like the key. Craig Cole (1:46:23) Is it called like Insurance Fraud Boulevard or what? Like what is the name of this road? Roberto Baldwin (1:46:26) I don't I don't know. I I was driving Sam Abuelsamid (1:46:29) You Roberto Baldwin (1:46:29) home like a week ago and there was a car that had been on fire. They were putting it out. I'm like, what is going on at this point? What is happening? Is there is there is there a mad scientist? Sam Abuelsamid (1:46:38) Is there like some kind of spike that comes up when you drive over it that punches through your fuel tank? Roberto Baldwin (1:46:44) I don't know, is there a mad scientist with a laser? Craig Cole (1:46:50) It's the lightning strike capital of America maybe every year. Roberto Baldwin (1:46:53) Yeah, I don't I it's such a weird phenomena and it's all it was a uh, Camry. That's what it was on fire last time. So I Craig Cole (1:47:01) Hmm. That's not a car known for just spontaneously combusting, so. Roberto Baldwin (1:47:06) What is happening at this site? What is going on? Yeah, like what is going on at this site? I'm gonna investigate more. I'm gonna investigate more, which means in 10 minutes after this podcast, I'm gonna forget I even mentioned it. And then in like three to six months, there'll be another fire in the exact same spot. Sam Abuelsamid (1:47:07) Yeah, I mean, usually that would be Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Craig Cole (1:47:11) Yeah. Or the new Corvette, right? that's at the gas station. you You're like, this is some good investigative local reporting you could be doing. Roberto Baldwin (1:47:27) Yeah, it's like the area near the Bay Bridge where if you have wireless card play, it just turns it off. Every car, doesn't matter what manufacturer, like wireless card plate, it's turned off. Something's going on. Ghosts, I think it's ghosts or wizards. Wizard, or the ghosts of wizards. One of those. Craig Cole (1:47:50) That's enough. Sure. ⁓ Roberto Baldwin (1:47:54) Poulter guys. Craig Cole (1:47:55) Yeah. Sam Abuelsamid (1:47:56) All right, on that note, Craig, thank you for joining us today, Craig. Roberto Baldwin (1:47:59) Like, why do we have Robbie on the podcast still? Craig Cole (1:48:04) It has been a pleasure sir, sir. I appreciate the invite. A lot of fun. Sam Abuelsamid (1:48:08) We'll definitely have to have you back again soon. All right. Take care, everybody. Talk to you next time. Craig Cole (1:48:15) Thanks.