Stories from Super Touring.

Hello, and welcome to a brand new series of stories from Super Touring.

And we're kicking off Series 7 with an absolute legend of touring car racing man whose name is synonymous with speed, precision and a little bit of controversy along the way.

From his iconic battles in the BTCC to his unforgettable showdowns across Europe, Japan and beyond, our guest today has done it all.

He's race for the biggest manufacturers, gone wheel to wheel with the very best, and left a mark on motorsport that still gets us fans talking decades later.

It's Steve Sopa.

Steve, welcome to Stories from Super Touring.

Thank you for opening Series 7 for us.

How are you?

Yeah, I'm good.

Good evening to you.

So Steve, let's start at the very beginning.

How did you first get into motorsport?

What was it that sparked that first passion for racing for you?

I think it was my father probably as a kid I was dragged to race meetings.

He did a bit of rallying and sprints and the odd race but very club level sort of standards.

But as at 8910 year old, I was pulled off to Crystal Palace and Silverstone, which I quite enjoy.

When I say pulled off, it sounds as though I was dragged there against my will.

I certainly wasn't I enjoyed, but that was it was bred into me, I suppose, educated into me.

He was a car fanatic, had all sorts of nice cars, Jaguars and Lotus, Cortinas and Lotus.

He lands.

So from an early, early part of my life, it was, it was their motorsport.

He actually let me start racing or competing, not racing at about an age of 13.

I was, we he were members of the Harold Carr Club and we used to turn up and do altar tests and sort of what are they called slaloms between poles against the stopwatch and stuff.

And I used to use his race licence to do that and the how they all sort of just turned a blind eye and sort of just let me get on with it at 1314 years of age.

So that that was the introduction, I suppose.

Well, it was always drilled into me by him that, you know, just do it as a bit of fun.

You know, you're not going to be able to make a living at it.

You're not going to become a professional.

Just enjoy yourself.

And that was drummed into me from a fairly early age, which probably made me even more determined.

When your dad's telling you that, then you try and do the opposite.

It was very progressive over a number of years.

First of all, I started in special saloon cars and couldn't really afford to do what everyone else was doing regarding what they were spending on their engines.

And so I went from sort of trying to do that with Hillman Imps and Minis and I decided to do 1 mate championships and then I picked one mate championships with first they had to be a new championship that just started and secondly I wanted a prize at the end of the championship if I could win.

So I picked championships.

Then at the time you, if I won the Mini championship, you won a new 1275 GT Mini and the same with the Fiesta championship, you won a new Fiesta, whatever it was at the time, and then the Metro and suddenly I realised I could win these championships and by winning cars that would pay for my next year's motor racing and all.

I would never look at entering the Renault 5 Championship because that had been running for years and it took you ages to find all the tweaks that everyone found over the years.

But if you entered a new championship, then I've I felt I was smarter than most of the others that I was competing against and I could get my car more competitive than they could in a brand new championship quicker than they could.

And that seemed to work with the Minis, the Fiesta and then the Metro off.

The back of that then with winning the Metro in Challenge in 1981, you then moved into what was then the British Salim Car Championship and then in 1983 you're then signed by Tom Walkinshaw and you have a brilliant year and win the title.

Before we get into perhaps what happened off track after you won the title.

So how was that in terms of, as you say, you know, you've been in these one mate series, the new series to try and sort of, you know, level out the experience and you choose your ability of chewing a car and getting on pace and your driving style.

How do you think you were able to so quickly find success in the British Touring Car Championship so quickly against teams that had a probably a lot more experience in finding those little tweaks than than you would have done at that point?

Motor racing is back then was always been in the right place at the right time and then bits of luck and putting things together and two things happened back in the 81.

First of all, I found a sponsor that was Hepalite Glacium, Hepalite Pistons and, and the first year in Minis I think or metros, I got £500.

And the second year in Group one in again with metro in 82, I got 25,000.

And then eventually the third year with the Rover business that I had their whole budget.

Now that sponsor was Austin Rover's sponsor, but they became a bit disillusioned with Austin Rover.

And bear in mind at this time I was buying and selling cars.

So basically I'm a motor dealer.

So if there's a deal out there, I was going to do my utmost to make sure I could get the deal and the, the final year, which I think was 120,000, I, I could steer that money wherever I wanted it to go.

And we did look at running the BMW and then eventually we went back to Austin Rover and we felt we were, I suppose better off knowing more what was happening to go with Austin Rover with a Rover vertet.

So the background of all of that was starting off with £500, then 25,000 and 120,000.

That was being in the right place and talking to the right people in the right time, understanding they were getting a little bit disillusioned and they because I was successful, they were prepared to put their money behind me.

That was the only sponsor I ever really landed in my whole career, but it did springboard me into group, Group A, racing, etcetera.

Also, Austin Rover wanted to promote a driver that won the Metro Championship.

So they were quite happy at the end of 81 to give me a little tiny bit of help to go group Group 1 racing.

So again, it was being in the right place within the championship at the right time and then sticking my ears to the ground and trying to understand what Austin Rover wanted and what I wanted and trying to pull P SAT together.

So you when we got to the drive, I was never employed by Tom walking Shaw.

I was employed by Austin Rover, Tom walking Shaw and I didn't really get on.

He he inherited me and I didn't understand politics back then.

I was this sort of, you know, arrogant young racing driver that thought he couldn't, you know, do anything.

And of course that clashed with the the sort of internal politics or TWR, but I was employed by Ossin and Roble and they were very good to me.

So that's the background of of that getting making the car work.

I'd driven rear wheel drive cars.

I'd driven an X1 Niner mid engine thing and I drew I'd race special saloon escorts and the Ilbanemps as well as front door.

So it didn't seem, it seemed relatively easy when once I got in that Rover, it nothing seemed to be, you know, a problem.

It all came relatively easy.

And I always used to say to friends and the media, I don't think I'm that good.

But if I'm in the lead making mistake after mistake at this corner, on that corner, but I look in my mirror and I'm drawing away from everyone, I might not be that good, but the rest are useless.

And that's still my, my opinion and my thinking even today, You know, I, I'm sure back then and even currently there's far more talent sitting in the grandstand which haven't been given an opportunity than there is on the race track.

That's my that's my my view and my opinion.

It's an interesting view of that.

I mean that that Rover, the, the Vitas, the absolute beasts were there.

I mean, what were they like to drive?

Horrible.

Oh, really?

OK, horrible.

OK, heavy, heavy, not you know, it was never designed to be a race car and at the day I was never a fan of the Austin Rover, the moist product.

You know, I I thought the road cars were pretty dire, let alone a racing Rover the test.

But walking shore TWR made it do a job and it was competitive in BTC.

It was competitive in Europe but it wasn't and you know, it went round a race track and it won races but it wasn't a nice thing to drive at all.

OK.

So you obviously did win the title on the track.

It's in 1983 with that car.

However, I believe it was about six months after it was taken from you due to irregularities.

I mean, what, what?

What was all that about?

Well, basically Tom used to irritate everybody, especially the sort of scrutineers and the RAC and he, Frank Sittner drove for him and he fired Frank Sittner.

So Frank Sittner had a a grudge to bear.

And as the year went on, Frank Sittner and the RAC kept trying to find things that were wrong with the Rover.

And I'm sure there probably were things wrong with the Rover, but they couldn't make anything stick.

And then finally at the end of the season, they together with the RACI think with a protest from Frank Sitner, if I'm right, they stripped and the my engine down and they couldn't find anything wrong with it apart from a tappet.

And the Rover engines back then ran hydraulic tappets and purely to make it more serviceable, they had modified that hydraulic tappet and they put a Volvo tap it in there, which was adjustable because that wasn't legal, didn't give you any more performance.

It just made it easier to service and maintain.

But it wasn't to the rule book.

And eventually they, they went after Tom and they got him on that.

And six months later I lost the the championship, which at the time I couldn't care less about.

But years later, you, you look back and think that would have been nice to actually have that that on the in the history books at the time, it wasn't forward.

OK, Interesting.

Because others, other drivers we've spoken to in the past, I know we've spoken to Anthony Reed about this, about him possibly losing out on a title because it dropped scores and it meant it meant everything to him then, but now it doesn't.

So it's interesting that with you it's the reverse.

Yeah, cheers.

Moving a bit further into the 80s now then and you joined Eggenberger?

In.

Ford in 1986 set you up to drive some pretty iconic cars, including the, the Cosworth.

And then also, you know, you were racing really at the forefront of touring car racing globally at that point in, in DTM World Touring Cars championship in, in 87 for the Sony season of its first first iteration and then in in European touring cars for three years with them as well.

How how did that deal come about and how was it sort of getting to drive all of these world famous circuits sort of seemingly we can leak out?

Well, the the the deal came about quite quite.

What's the word?

Unusual, I suppose, because in 83 with the Rover, BMW sent hand stock over to England to do some BTC races in a in a BMW635 and I used to beat him.

I can't remember how many times he beat me or how many times I beat him, but I think I beat him more times than he beat me.

And he obviously went back to BMW Germany, Munich, BMW Motorsport, and probably they were asking him why he didn't win.

And he was obviously saying that this guy, Steve Sopa is a bit special and he's really good on it.

So he boosted my profile and at the end of 83 BMW offered me a very, very nice contract to join them at the end for the 84 season and rightly wrongly, I told Austin Rover this and they convinced me to stay for the 84 and 85 seasons.

They matched everything BMW offered me financially and they offered me a longer contract.

When the those next two years spanned out with the Rover in Europe, I was not a happy person there.

I was not.

I was still learning politically, politics, but I wasn't allowed to do or drive as I wanted.

I was controlled by the TWR team and group.

So at the end of 85 I as soon as I could leave, my contract was up.

I terminated it and gave them notice that I wouldn't be staying on for 86 and I started talks again with BMW which started to look very positive.

And then round about December it all went quiet.

There was no communication at all.

And although I knew it was Christmas, if you're looking for your job and your next season, you, you start panicking the, the, they weren't answering the phone.

They weren't answering it.

You know, I think it was faxes back then and stuff like that.

And round about that time Ford Germany came on the phone and basically he said, would I be interested in driving for them with the Sierra Cosworth for 87 and 88?

But for the 86 season it was the Ford Merco, which wasn't a great car.

So I said, well, Pavani, you give me a three-year contract.

So I'm around for the Cosworth, yes.

And and that's how I ended up at Ford.

Ford was great.

It was a great.

The guy that ran it at the time was a good guy.

It was Eggenberger was tricky, but he built a fantastic car.

The car was pretty bulletproof.

It very rarely went wrong, engine or anything else.

And we did a world world championship that, you know, we travelled around the world, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, everywhere.

So it was all of a sudden, I mean at the time I didn't appreciate it, but you know, years on you look back and it was great learning the circuits.

You just get on with it and you do it.

There wasn't the data that you couldn't, you know, there was no Sims or data that I couldn't look at my team mates what they were doing.

I just had to do it the hard way and get to the circuit early, walk around it, get a rink car, you know, try and sneak onto the circuit before the weekend had started and and just get on with it, which luckily I managed to do.

You intertwined that well fantastic journey all over the world effectively with sporadic BTCC appearances.

Certainly one that sticks in in the memory is Brands Hatch in 1988 where you had that famous battle with another excellent car builder in Andy Rouse and that that is still famous to this day.

I mean, that was a great battle that you and Andy had in, in what were, I mean, people didn't know this, but what were quite different Sierras?

Yeah.

I mean, the Eggenberger car was a long distance.

You know, all our ETC and world races that we had done in 87 and 88 were all three hours, 24 hours.

They were all long endurance races.

And the, the interesting thing is Ford put AAI don't know what you would call it, a promotional thing out there and said anybody who wins the race with a Ford, there's a £5000 bonus.

So, you know, I went Ching Ching and I had to then persuade Egenberger to come over to England.

I didn't tell Egenberger there was any, any prize money because it was paid to the driver, not to the team.

So I managed to persuade him and for Germany, let's do 3 or 4U KB TC races.

And they agreed.

And but I was, I was with, you know, I think the first race I did, I think my engine had already done 3, three races, 3 long distance races.

And Egenberger wouldn't turn the boost up because we'd run higher boost to begin with in the beginning of the season.

And he had just, you know, half the life of his engines.

And in Europe or the the World Series, we didn't need any more boost because we were winning with what we we had.

But the the other interesting thing behind that story, obviously I wanted to do it and I convinced him to come over.

But Andy Rouse had touted for that deal.

So that World Touring Car Championship that for Germany were painful.

He tended for it and he hadn't got it and he felt that what he'd done in England, he should have got it.

So there was a lot of sort of under undercurrent.

I wouldn't say bitterness, but a bit, a bit of needle.

Yeah.

Envy, envious or jealousy.

I don't think Andy, I know Andy quite well.

I don't think Andy was bitter at all.

But he was definitely out to prove a point.

Yeah, we turn up.

This is the racing driver book of excuses you got to realise.

So we turn up with a two or three race old long distance engine and try and compete with Andy that's just built himself the most powerful Sierra Cosworth engine that he's ever built to make sure that he wins.

And it was a little bit like that.

I think we did 4 races in England and I think I only won one of them to my memory.

I think he won three.

I won the one at Pruxton and then the the other two or three he won.

So, but there's always, there's always something going on in the background that not everybody knows, if that makes sense.

Then for 1989, you move to BMW.

So after obviously nearly moving there a couple of times, you make that move and initially with the Zaxby's team, with your main role being in in Germany in the DTM where you won races.

How was that that year in sort of adjusting to BMW in a different, different car to the to the sea era?

Well, again, it it sounds like you know BMW head 100 me away from Ford.

That's not how it happens.

So at the end of 88 my German boss said look I've I've lost all my budget for next year.

I've only got enough money to run 2 cars in DTM and I've got to run MY2 German drivers.

Klaus needs space and Klaus Ludz bit.

I want to keep you, but I don't have any money.

If I if I find more budget to run a third car and a third team, then sure, you're you're my priority.

But right now, if you get offered anything, take it.

So again, I immediately started communicating again with BMW.

The the boss of BMW motorsport had just changed and it was a new guy called Carla Hines cabfill.

So he joined and within a week of him sitting in his office taking over BMW Mother Sport, I rang him and cut a Long story short.

He didn't know who I was but the people around him did and I was able to join there.

But I wanted to go to Snitzer and obviously all I was offered was at the time was Zak Speed and the joining BMW was very easy.

Joining another German company was a doddle.

I, I was little bit frustrated with Zac Speed because it didn't, it didn't live up to my expectations or what I thought it should do.

So I was always frustrated and quite demanding on them.

But you know, I want to cut the races in DTM to be fair to them.

And Eric Sukowski and the team manager at the time, Gunter Waldo, were were very accommodating.

But it just at the time it wasn't a snitch.

So it wasn't the same maternity as a snitcher team.

You spent one year with Zach Speed and as you were saying you were, you were trying to get into Schnitzer, but you ended up for a couple of years with Begatsi.

Similar, I mean obviously still BMW, but a similar vibe or a different vibe to Zach Speed there.

And the end of 89 and I said to BMW, look, I, I, I, I want to go, I have to go to Snitzer.

And they said, look, we got 4 drivers that want to go to Snitzer and only two cars.

And actually if you want to go, we got 5 drivers and only two cars.

So that's not going to happen.

They said, you know what about Linda?

I said no, no, no, there's no way I want to go to Linda.

And they said I don't want to stay at Zach Speed.

And then my current new boss at the time, obviously it wasn't, you know, I've been with there over a year.

He said what what about Bugatti?

And I'd met Gabrielle Raffinelli when we were doing the World Touring Car Championship.

He was running BMWs.

He was a factory driver back then, not driver team back then.

And that's when I met him and we got on like a house on fire.

And he glossed that status.

And he, when my boss said to me, what about Begatsi?

He wasn't a factory team.

And I said, yeah, I'll drive for them because I just knew them in mentality.

Or Raffanelli.

No, it wasn't a snitzer.

It was a completely different team outlook.

The way they went racing was completely different to Schnitzer, but it was a good team that would give you everything that you required without any sort of dramas along the way.

So I they ended up making Bugatti another factory team.

And I I joined Bugatti in 1990.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you did.

If you did, you did DTM but also sporadically did a couple of BTCC rounds in the what was to become the two litre formula.

The the, the eventually become the Super towing formula.

Those cars must have been very different to the DTN cars and the Cosworths and the RS5 hundreds that you've been used to driving.

They they were, but it, you know, after a lap, it's a racing car and you just drive it as you know, you try and drive it as quickly as you can with the amount of grip and everything you've got.

So I never really had to concentrate.

Oh, this is this is a DTM car.

This is a BTC car.

This has more a bit more error than this.

It, it was all relatively easy.

It didn't seem to cause me any problems at all.

Jumping from one to the other.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's, it brings me on to another point actually is that you obviously did a lot of these part seasons, particularly in Britain where you would come over and do a couple of races and then either Christmas in or Rivalia would come and and and and take your seat.

Did you have any say at all about which championships you wanted a racing or was it very much BMW want you to do this championship and that's where you're going to be and that's your focus?

BM back in the 198919919293 I had no say in it.

They said you're doing DTM and then I had to then start making waves and negotiating if I could have on when races didn't clash with my DTM programme, could I drive, Would they allow me to drive for, you know, the pro drive team or whichever team it was?

And they they were quite comfortable at letting me do that.

So, and I think back then I was paid a salary per race.

So the more races I did the more money I earned.

So it, it sort of worked and and I was quite, I quite enjoyed back in the early 90s doing 345 races in in England.

I didn't want to do a complete championship of BTCI, enjoyed DTM too much, but I was quite happy on my weekends off to turn up in in England and driver Pro Drive or whoever.

Yeah, in, in, in 92.

Then you, you ended up driving the new BMW 318 and that at the start of the year was it was quite an uncompetitive car.

But when we, when we had Tim on the show, he said that you guys had solved the issue, something to do with the flexing suspension arm that the pro drive guys hadn't been able to fix.

And basically that turned that car into an absolute rocket.

And there were some particularly wonderful drives, I thought from you in 92 where you got caught up in, invariably you seem to get caught up in, in someone else's accident and ended up fighting your way through the field that year.

Fond memories of of some battles in 92.

Yes, don't quite go along with Tim's analysis.

The the the car was we were allowed to run that car by BMW Germany's.

So we started to develop it a year earlier than Germany and we were given help from Germany from they would send engineers over, they would guide VLR in certain areas.

And the car, the car just got better and better as we understood it more and more.

So the, the, the car at the beginning wasn't a great race car.

And once once we got the right engine in it and we'd sorted a few things internally and with a bit of BMW Motorsports help, then the car got better and better and better.

And you have to also remember that in that year we had ABS and nobody else had ABS.

So the, that was a huge advantage back then, especially with a sort of rear wheel drive car.

So all things put together, the car, the car did sort of turn a corner and midway through the season, but I don't remember any sort of flexing, steering on.

I don't know where that's come from.

And I, I did a lot more work than Tim did.

But I'm not saying I'm right and he's wrong.

I'm not normally wrong.

We can't really talk about 1992 without bringing up that dramatic Silverstone finale from inside the car.

What was going through your mind in those final laps and how did you feel about the fallout that came afterwards?

I think the the problem is that weekend there was no other modus war, so there was no Formula One, there was no ward rally and there was no other big British events.

So after the the incident, Autosport Motoring News and every other Tom, Dick and Harry, all they could write about was this incident.

And I, you know, I was in, I was employed to help team win that championship, but not at the cost of eliminating John Glenn.

And it was never, ever suggested, you know, Tim needs to win at all costs.

It wasn't the situation if I could go there and spoil John's race weekend just by being there and help team win that.

That was my job.

Unfortunately, the the late David Leslie, who I respected a lot as a driver, he was driving a Vauxhall and he he wiped me out on the first lap.

Maybe, maybe I was being a little bit foolish with him.

I should have known better that he wouldn't stand for some of my that the move that I was trying to pull on him.

But he took no prisoners.

And next thing I know I was facing a wrong way.

And then Rob grab it comes round and drives into the back of me.

So I'm already programmed that a Vauxhall has eliminated me, which isn't great.

I then, I then got from the back of the grid back up to John and John was in front of Tim and Tim was behind John and I, what does I still think one of my best moves I managed to, I think it was sort of coming out of Abby and maybe down under bridge.

I, I did a lovely move and I, I managed to slow John up so that Tim went past John and myself at the time and got into a championship position.

So I thought, yeah, that's good, well done.

I was quite happy with myself 2 two corners later, John then carries a move out on me that if I hadn't have been there he would have apart from falling, the car would have fallen over but he also wouldn't have made the corner.

So that's I'm now thinking hang on a minute, this is this is sort of Vauxhall.

Vauxhall taking the Mick.

What's going on now, to be fair to John, in that sort of two wheels stump that he pulled, he lost his driver's door mirror.

So he's now got no door mirror on his right side and he believes I'm gone.

He believes I'm off the track, sailing across the grass.

So I was off the track and on the grass but I was facing the right way.

So I, I came back at him believing he knew I was still around.

Hindsight, you know, years later, even a few weeks later, I realised it.

He didn't know I was there and he turned in with an uncompromised line, believing I wasn't there in.

At the same time, I've turned in with no compromise, being a little bit frustrated of what he's just done and that the two moves ended in us both going off the track.

If I'd wanted to eliminate tom-tom, if I wanted to eliminate John rather, I could have done it and I could have still probably finished on the podium or in the top three or four.

I'd certainly wasn't there to take John off and myself off.

So it wasn't an intentional move.

If if you want to point the blame at someone more than I'm probably more to blame than John, but John did his paid his share of the the incident if that makes sense.

Yeah, and that that ended up in a in, in a, in a battle in the court, which John has told us effectively was stopped because you 2 ended up chatting on the phone and going in and saying we were both guilty.

They didn't want to take anyone's life.

You didn't want any either of you to to lose their licence and then effectively your livelihood.

So in the end it all it all sort of worked out.

Yeah.

I mean, six months have gone by and I had a lawyer and John had a lawyer and I had witnesses and he had witnesses and they, I had all the video evidence of that race.

And he he got quite vocal when I passed him the first time and was he was wired up and was calling me names and stuff in the video in the sort of in the in car camera stuff.

So I had all of that and all of a sudden before this tribunal, they say, they suddenly said that no video evidence will be allowed.

And so I thought this is this is going, this sounds like they're going for me because I don't even remember.

You sort of, you know, Murray, Walker says.

And John Sissy's going, he's giving me the finger and, and calling me names and, you know, Murray says.

He's going for a first or something like that.

Yeah.

So anyway, the night before the tribunal, the phone rings and it's John.

And he says to me, listen, he said, he said, I've been told that they want to make an example out of one of us.

And he said, what worries me, if they don't get you, they get it.

They might get me.

And he says I still think you're to blame, But he said I don't want to take the chance.

He said if we go in as friends and just say it's a racing accident, He said, I've been told they can't do anything.

So I said, OK, I'm fine with that.

But you say it first.

You know, as much as I know you, I'm not saying I trust you.

I'm not going to go in and say, you know, it was a racing accident and I've got no problem.

And then you'd come in with the gun and build a knife and stab me in the back later.

Anyway, he, he did that.

To be fair, he went in and said all of that.

And I, I said my bit was exactly the same.

And they were very, very irritated that we walked out, both of us, with no punishment.

But there was a lot of shit going on back then against me, I don't think against John, but you know, I, I, there was a few people that wanted to make life difficult for me and that a couple of those were in that REC tribunal.

Producer Matt's just put in our chat that it was actually 33 years ago, just just gone on Saturday.

Really.

Yeah, it's and it is still one of the most talked about incidents in the history of the British Touring Car Championship.

Does that annoy you or is that something that you you've appreciated the, the sort of the not the notoriety, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the coverage that that incident has given you?

Or is it something you wish would just go away now?

And I know we're just as guilty talking about it here ourselves, but.

No, it's, it's I wish I could have had another incident that was better than that one that, you know, had that amount of publicity.

Does it worry me?

No, not really.

I do car club talks.

I don't do many.

I do a couple of year and it always comes up at a car, you know, in any car club it you know, it doesn't go very long before that's that, that there's a question about that.

So it doesn't worry me.

I think it worried me in the first six months because I was perceived as the bad guy.

Years later, I think there's a bit more of a, it's a bit more averaged out who's the bad guy and who's it is good guy And John, you know, John and I can speak for six months, but we're, we're good mates now.

Nothing has, you know, I talked to him.

I, I text him on his birthday, he text me on my birthday.

We talk a couple of times a year.

Everything is really not a problem.

But to be fair to John, I didn't go there to deliberately wipe him out so he couldn't win the championship.

There was, you know, there was a lot of other mess going on.

If you look at Harvey, it did look as though you wiped Will Hoy out.

You know, I even that I don't think was deliberate by Tim.

I just think that was another circumstances and Will was on the wrong.

End of it going into 1993 now and you finally got your move to SITSA BMW and it was a full BCCC season as well in that works.

Carl, how did that move to get addition it to come about?

BMW Motorsport Germany fell out with RTL or whoever it was that was running DTM at the time.

They, they, they deemed to agree with some new regulations.

And eventually my boss got that hump and said, right, we're not doing it.

So he very quickly turned around.

He had all these teams and drivers and, and obviously he wanted to carry on in motorsport.

He just didn't, wasn't prepared to carry on in a championship that he didn't agree with the new regulations.

So all of a sudden we were told, right, you're not doing DTM.

You 2 are going to Italy, you 2 are going to England.

Snitzers running 2 cards in BTC, You're you're the drivers.

And that's how it was.

There was no, no, what would you like to do?

Where would you like to go?

What about doing England?

It was literally we were on course to do DTM and overnight it was changed.

So I was now in back in England doing a a full season, which at the time everyone said it was for me, it was my championship.

And I should, you know, if we had the car, I was going to win it.

And this is even BMW Germany saying that.

Unfortunately no one had told Winkerholk that he, you know, to be fair to Joe, he he he beat me fair and square.

I think I had one more failure than he did.

Yeah, I think he had one accident.

I had one accident.

I also had a bit of suspension break at Autumn Park.

But you know, on his day, Joe Smokey, Joe Winkler is very, very difficult to beat.

And bear in mind the team is German.

He's German and this is my first real first full season with Schnitzer.

So there was a little bit of tilt towards Joe, but I, I was given the same equipment, the same, you know, he, he didn't have anything better than I did.

He just was blooming difficult to beat.

And very annoyingly, he he did.

He beat me.

That 93 championship was your only full season in the championship during that 90s era with the, with the Super Tours, with the two litres again, is that something that you look back on and, and is it a regret that you didn't win it or is is?

I mean, back then I was only interested in being employed.

Yeah.

So whatever I had to do to stay employed.

And I had a I've had, and certainly back then I was having a privileged career being paid to race cars all over the world.

So the, the fact that the we we'd gone there and I hadn't won it again, it was imitating.

But you know, I got over it pretty quick.

It's in the eyes of BMW.

It didn't do me any harm.

The fact that Joey beat me.

My boss gave me a a sort of end of year trophy, which was a throttle pedal with some markers on it.

And when you pushed it, it sort of said, you know, second place was half throttle and Champion was full throttle.

So there was a bit of comedy, they're in it why I didn't win, but no, nothing detrimental.

And then moving on, we get to the stage in in 9596 where I am in a position to pick the championship that I want to do.

So the following 95 S 94, they wanted someone to go to Japan and do the Super Tour Championship in Japan.

And nobody wanted to go, including me.

They they just kept offering.

They just kept putting their hand in the pocket and offering me more and more and more, not just money, but all sorts of stuff.

And I said, OK, I'll do it for one year, but you know, I don't want to do it for 95, we'll do it for 94.

And so I went to Japan and I did some races in the UK, but we'd since been given 100 kilos.

So the car in the UK wasn't very good with 100 kilos of handicap on it.

But the car was good in in Japan and we very, very nearly won the championship.

We lost it at the last race and which really frustrated me.

Again, it was Schnitzer.

It was that championship in 94 and 95 was only about me.

Everybody else as team mates came and went.

They it was all about me, which is if, if you'd racing for someone like Schnitzer and BMW and you're, you're the number one driver and everything revolves around you, It's it's a huge honour and it's just nice.

I've never had that before.

So you know, special engines, everything.

Anyway, we lost it so and they came on the the had a meeting at the end of that season and they said, look, you know, you very nearly won it.

BMW Japan wants us to come back and try and win it again in 95, you know, are you up for it?

And, and deep down I was, but I didn't let them know.

So I sort of said, well, I know it was only for one year and, and this and that and, you know, it's a long way to go and it's it's this and it's that.

And so I put all these excuses and they just, they again, they just put their hands in their pockets and he offered me this and they offered me that, you know, so yet apart from expenses and how I flew there and back and I had even had an agreement and if I wanted to come home for four days, it was my decision.

I didn't have to ring up the, you know, the accounts department say, can can I get a flight home?

You know, on I can make all those decisions.

I could stay in the hotels, which hotels I wanted, I could travel business class there and back ends that apart from financially getting them to pay a lot more money.

I also said if I win, I want to pick my programme for the 96.

I want to choose not, you know, I want to go and race in Russia and you're not racing in Russia, but wherever you're wherever you're racing in the world, England, Australia, Germany, Italy, I can have that pick.

And they said yes.

So off we go again to Japan.

Luckily this time we win it.

And at the end of that season when we're doing all our meetings, they say, so where, where do you want to race?

And I said Germany.

It was a super Touring waggon St.

Yeah, STW, Yeah.

I said Baghatsi Super Tour, that's what I want to do.

So that was that was all agreed.

And then as the 95 years started a sort of ends, I kept hearing BMW GB mumbling my name for BTC the next year and I just ignored it because I thought well maybe they don't know the deal, maybe they don't know what I've already agreed with Germany so don't get involved just ignore it.

Hopefully it'll go away.

And about January, January or February, the phone rang 1 evening and it was my boss in Germany.

And he I got on with him great, but he was a no nonsense type of guy.

And it was, there was no hello or how are you or hi Steve, it's Carla Heinz here.

None of that was straight away.

What's this shit I hear about you not wanting to race in England?

And I before I could say anything, you know, it's your homeland.

They all want you in England.

Why don't you want to what's the matter with you, blah, blah, blah.

And then he clicked on and on.

I've asked it, how do I, how do I get out of this?

Anyway, one of his favourite sayings to me, whether he was at a race track and he came up to me on the grid or whether it was, you know, a meeting in his office in in Munich, was he used to say, are you motivated?

And I used, if I was sat in the car on the grid, I'd say I'm not really in the mood.

And I was didn't really get up that that well today.

I said I don't really feel that used to really wind him up and and you know, he'd walk off and say shit English drive and but I knew by this stage I had a great relationship with him.

Anyway, he goes on and on and on on at me this evening on this phone.

BMW GB want you and they think you're a star and you should drive like, you know, how am I going to get out of this?

So I said to him, Carla Heinz, I said you're my boss.

I said, you once said you weren't my boss, we were partners, but you're the guy that pays me.

You're my boss.

If you tell me to race in Russia, I said I'll race in Russia because you're my boss.

I have to do as I'm told.

But I said if you ask me what I'm motivated to do, I said it's not England.

I said it's Germany.

And with that he said, you shit guy.

And he hung up the man wool.

I knew I got him.

I knew I was home and dry.

So from that moment, that was the only real year 96 that I had a choice.

A bit later on about Le Mans, they said to me did I want to be part of it?

Because they knew I didn't like Le Mans.

And they said we're going to do it until we win it.

Do you want to be part of the programme or not?

And obviously that was offered to me and I, I agreed to, to do it, but that the, the sort of 96 year was the only one where I had a lot of clout to actually pick what I wanted to do.

Yeah.

The rest of the time they just said, you know, there's, you know, there's Macau, Hong Kong, Macau, BMW want you out there.

There's a race, you know, are you OK?

They never said you're going.

They always would ask are you OK with going?

I don't actually know if I'd said no.

I'm, you know, I don't want to do it.

I said no for England But I I I did think I was pretty home dry and comfortable in saying no.

That 96 series in Germany, I mean, it was a it was a heck of a championship.

You had you had, you know, the big names of like, you know, Piero Wendlinger, Roland Ash Boots and Leroy Ella was there, you know, Christian Abt, Sasha Mass and Anthony Reed, who everyone would know on the podcast is there Capelli.

It was a strong field of drivers.

It it was great.

Again, it was baguette.

See the car was good and we we started to become sort of leading it or very close to leading it.

And again my boss came on the phone one night.

He said what can we do to make sure you win the championship?

And I had a teammate at the time called Alex Booksliner.

I think his nickname was tricking brain and and the the team named him that, not me.

So he was a young junior up and coming junior driver.

I said, well, I said two things I could do with a teammate that could help me.

But I said, you know, don't just give me anyone it before before they, they you ask them to do it.

They, it is they need to help me, not pretend to help me and then clear off into the distance or you know, hinder me rather than help me.

And I said secondly, I've been told that in England, I think it was Sukoto and David Brabham in BTC in 96 in the Uki said I've been told that they've got some special engines, anti friction engines.

And I said I don't know how many they've got.

I said, you know, if they've got 6, I'd like one.

If they've got 2, I'd like 1.

I said I just need an engine.

So my my boss said, Oh no, he said they haven't got any engines.

I said, well, I said I've been told they've got these special engines.

He said no they haven't.

I said, well what about the team mate?

He said yeah, leave it with me, who would you like?

And so I said, what if Shakarta agreed to help Johnny?

I said he'd be my first choice.

So he said OK, leave with me, I'll come back to you.

So anyway, couple of days later he comes back.

He says right, He said some you're right about the engine.

He said they do have some.

He said I never knew.

So he says shows what great boss I am, I don't know what the Hell's going on.

So he said I've got you one of those.

And he says I've got you Chipotle to help you.

So we then went to Berlin, which was the next race and I think we were two races from the end, three including Berlin.

And Johnny drafted me round with my engine, my new engine and I stuck it on pole position and I think Chicoto qualified 4th and off we go.

I'm I'm leading the race.

Everything is hunky Dory.

Chicoto's.

3rd or 4th, I can see them in my mirror, but I'm, I'm up the road.

It's looking pretty, pretty OK that I'm going to win the race And all of a sudden I, there's there's basically a 2 long straight, a very tight hairpin as she came at a very fast hairpin like Mallory Park, Gerrard's type hairpin.

So I'm coming through the fast hairpin 3rd or 4th gear and I see my teammate, not Tricotto chicken brain and he's he's hit the barrier somewhere and he's limping back to the pits.

Problem is he's on he's on the right and the pit laying in half a kilometre, a kilometre is on the left.

Whereas I'm coming through all chat, I'm thinking and he's, you know, all the wheels are facing in the wrong direction.

The car's not particularly trampling very straight.

Just as I get on top of him, he decides he's going to go from the right to the left without looking.

And I hit him and basically that was it.

That was my championship over.

The team nearly hung him afterwards.

You know, I mean, I can, I didn't even have to say anything because we began to see team which he was in a Bugatti car.

I mean, they were then running three cars, one for Johnny, one for me and one for him.

They they were absolutely livid.

And that championship, another, another championship went out the window.

I got all these great excuses.

I mean, you know, it doesn't matter what what championship I'd I've got a reason why I didn't win it.

In 97 and 98, talking about something that you did win is you won at Macau, which is, you know, one of the most prestigious races in the world, especially amongst touring cars, as well as forming a free.

And you won it in 97 with the Gatsi and 98 with Schnitzer.

So it's it's almost this fact you did end up winning with both those teams that you enjoyed being with so much at BMWI mean, how was that as an event?

It's it's quite a big event, isn't it?

It's, it's a great event and I love going there.

I love doing it.

And luckily I was, I was always in decent teams and decent cars.

But I, you know, I think the first year I did, it was probably 91 and I crashed in free practise.

I then turned up in 92 and I, I got as far as qualifying and then I crashed and then turned up in 93.

I'm not sure about the years, maybe the years aren't quite right, but I, every time I turned up, I, I used to, I used to get a bit further into the event before I hit the barrier.

So by the time we got to 97, very interesting story about the 97 roads because I that year I'd be driving the McLaren and I hadn't driven a super tour from 9096 was the last time I drove the Super tour.

So all year I've been driving the McLaren in a World Series with JJ And it was it was a good, it had quite a little bit of downforce.

It was the long tail one with this sort of, you know, slightly better configuration.

And suddenly BMW said, oh, we want you to go to Macau.

Are you OK with that?

And I said, yeah, which which team?

And they said all begatsi.

And I said, who's my teammate?

And they said Winkler, well, he'd won already at my count.

And he, he was very good around my count.

I thought, God, this is going to be, this is going to be hard work.

You know, I haven't driven a bloody car.

And I said, whose car is it?

Am I using?

And they said, oh, Shakoto's car.

I said he saw any chance of a test before I go.

And he said, no, the car's already on its way.

So we turn up there and obviously the McLaren had taught me, it had taught me a different driving, I would say finesse.

I was just a bit sharper and smoother than I ever had been in a touring car.

So the, the, the McLaren in getting used to the McLaren had taking a little bit of time when I first started to drive it.

Luckily Leto helped me a lot, especially in the quick stuff where it was using downforce, you know, he said, you know, stop using the throttle like that, don't hit the apex curb, just turning and the finger will go round.

And he was very helpful.

He got me up to speed quite soon, quite quickly in the McLaren.

So anyway, turn up at Macau and I'm I'm I'm a little bit nervous that Joe's you know, I'm going to be trailing Joe all the way through because you you know, although I'm being paid and I'm enjoying it, We all we only want to win.

We don't like not hurting it anyway, free practise qualifying in both races.

He couldn't get near me and I put that down to having now I've, I've, I'm driving a different way after the, after driving the McLaren for a year.

I just think it had sharpened me up and smoothed me, smoothed me out.

And I, I remember the, the, the corner, one of the quick corners was a corner by the Mandarin Hotel.

It's probably changed now, but it's a very, very fast corner.

It's nearly flat, but it's it's not.

In the early days it was down one gear.

In 97 it was, it was six gear, but quite a lift.

And in through that corner I had something like, I think it was 9 kilometres more speed than Joe through there.

And Joe's not, you know, he's brave.

So it was just, and I've never seen Joe work so hard on the setup and the telemetry.

He was there late with his engineers looking at my telemetry, looking at he's trying to find where this where this time was and he just, he couldn't find him.

So that was a very rewarding race that year.

And I think I won the outright thing in 97, whereas I think the following year I just won a race, if that makes sense.

I can't remember.

Yeah, it it in the end your, your career with BMW, you did Le Mans as you mentioned in 99.

Interesting.

You you you said there and I've I've heard this in the past as well, that you didn't like Le Mans.

There was something about Le Mans that you didn't enjoy.

What?

What was that?

Danger.

Danger.

Safety.

Yeah.

Fair health and sight.

I'm, you know, I'm still racing to this day, but I understand the what can go wrong.

And to me, you know, to drive Randleman in the daylight in a, in a, a McLaren or prototype, fantastic, brilliant.

But to drive that race, the 24 hours in the night and the rain with 7080 other cars on the track.

Yeah, it's if, if it goes wrong, it's going to look like a plane crash.

And in, you know, per the first time I did it was 1983 in a Mazda organised by Tom Walkinshaw Racing and it was myself, Jeff Allen and James Weaver.

And in the middle of the night, this little Rotary engine Mazda run by Mazda Japan, Mazda Speed was doing over 201 an hour down the straight and there was no chicanes.

And I promised myself in the middle of the night that if I survived, I'd never go back there because it frightened me.

It really frightened the life out of me.

And from 83 to 96, I probably turned offers down, I probably turned 10 offers down and said no.

And then BMW said OK, we're going to do it until you until BMW wins it.

Do you want to be part of this programme or do you not?

So if you are a driver of my calibre, the three biggest races in my opinion in the world is Indianapolis 500, Monaco, Formula One, Monaco Grand Prix and Le Mans.

Yeah, well.

Yeah.

I'm not going to never be able to even look at Indianapolis 500 or Monaco Grand Prix.

But here I am with the manufacturer that I know and know really well, and they're offering me a possibility to be in a car that they're going to keep doing it until they win Le Mans.

And I thought, well, I've got to be, you know, if I can win the race, I've got to, I've got to go with that.

And also the teams, it's BMW, it's Begatsi, it's Snitzer.

I know the teams, you know, they're not everything is going to be new when we turn up and then on, you know, be before the we start the race, everything's going to be brand new again.

That's just how they work.

So the the the car failing and me hurting myself of small, the chances of me running into another car in my opinion was high.

But you know, I've got to take that.

I've got to take that chance.

Unfortunately, the 99 when they did win it, obviously I wasn't in that car.

I was in another car and so I didn't win it, but it for me, it's the slow cars, it's night.

It's it's not me, it's the other cars around you that the speed differential in the last time I did it in the breaking area for the chicanes, you know, at 120 metre MOP we were still fat out doing 200 plus mile an hour.

And the smaller cars that at night, they don't know back then that everyone had the same colour headlights.

There was no clever cameras or anything like that.

The smaller cars didn't know those headlights that were coming up on them if they were doing 200 mile an hour or 120.

So for me, the speed differentials everywhere were just too high and too much of A risk.

And every lap, every single lap for 8-9 hours, I would go, you know, I would pray that they'd seen me and I'd normally swear under my breath because at the last minute I figured they hadn't seen me.

And I'd start taking avoiding action and end up on all The Dirty, what I called a hard shoulder to miss someone just because they hadn't seen me.

And I don't, I don't consider that is racing.

That's, you know, the track.

Fantastic.

What a place to drive around the cars that we were racing.

Fantastic.

Daylight, yes, great.

If I could do if I could do them on Classics, I'd probably jump at it in the daylight in a decent car, in a decent classic historic car.

But I never liked the race.

My wife loved it.

I kept trying to get her to drive and me me be the spectator, but that never seemed to happen.

That, that, that, that long career with BMW that was spanned over a decade ended in 2000.

I seem to remember the time you didn't, you didn't have the greatest relationships with Gerhard Berger, who was overseeing the department at the time.

Is that, is that right?

Was that?

Am I remembering right?

Yeah.

I mean it.

Only my relationship up until he took over Motorsport was fine with him.

But then he took over Motorsport.

My boss was there.

My boss employed Gerhard as a consultant.

And within a year, he, my boss was moved out of that role.

And Gerhard was in, in that driving seat.

And certainly at Le Mans.

He sort of said to me, look, I only want Formula One drivers.

I don't, I don't want you to drive this car.

And I said, well, you know, can you talk?

You know, I've done a load of testing with Williams and Schnitzer.

Can you talk to them about me?

And he said, no, I've made my decision.

So I then lost my likeness for him because he wouldn't entertain me.

In his world, you had to be a Formula One driver.

And he'd also retired, I think at 36, so he didn't quite understand why he was paying someone.

I think I was 43 at the time, 4445.

I don't know.

So I I've tried to negotiate and I didn't get very far.

And then he said if you want to do the race, he said you can drive with the 98 Williams BMW with Thomas Becher and Bill Oblin.

So I said why would I do that?

So because he said, well, because you're employed by us and you'll get paid.

So I said, well I'll do, I'll drive that car for you.

But I said I've heard a rumour that if after Le Mans you're possibly taking the 99 car to America to do the American Le Mans Series.

And he said if you take it to America, I would have be part of that programme.

And he said you're OK deal.

And to be fair, had to remind him a couple of times.

But to be fair he did when, when they took a car to America, I think we did 5 races and they, I was part of that programme.

So it it wasn't, I still see Gerhard today.

I mean, we're not friends, but I see him at Goodwood and other places and BMW do's.

He's fine.

We sit and we talk and you know that there's I don't remind him of that time and he doesn't remind me of that time.

But it was just very frustrating that I, I had done so much.

I think Tom Christensen and I did 4 1/2 thousand kilometres of testing with that 99 car and the car was just magic.

And it did win Le Mont and I wasn't in that car.

I was in the old 98 car, which just wasn't the wasn't a nice or competitive car.

I think we finished fit after changing the clutch.

We possibly might have finished third but we had to put a clutch in it with about two hours to go.

So we we finished fifth.

No one remembers second, they only remember who wins that there.

Heading into 2001 then and he's then come back to the BTCC with Peugeot.

Obviously, this was the first rule of first year of the BTC cars as opposed to the Super Taurus.

It wasn't a great year in terms of competitiveness, was it?

The Vauxhalls were very far clear.

And I mean, was it in any way an enjoyable year for you or not?

Not the best year.

Not not the best, but it was circumstances.

So I'd retired in 2000, you know, Gerhard was my new boss.

He was negotiating everyone's contract, financially, whatever you want.

He was, he was sort of halving it up because they need more money for the Williams Formula One programme and so and he didn't want me considered that I was too old.

So I thought well, I'll stop now.

You know, let's let's call it, I think I was 50 then.

So we stopped, probably not.

I was 49 or something.

So and then, but I just have acquired the BMW dealership, which I acquired because I was retiring and that particular business, new proposition was struggling like hell.

So I couldn't afford one that was making lots of money.

The only one I could afford was one that was losing a load of money.

And I underestimated how how difficult and how long it would take to turn that around.

So suddenly Peugeot came on the phone and started saying would I do BTC?

And I said no.

And then he came back and upped the price and I said no.

And they said, well, you don't need to do any testing or any marketing or promotion, Just turn up and race it and go home.

And they put the price up.

And financially I needed, I needed that contract.

It just took a lot of pressure off of the business.

If, you know, that way I wasn't, I didn't need to take a salary out of the business.

I could put some of that money back into the business.

So I said yes.

And I did think the car would be better than it actually was.

The car was just too big and heavy, The wheelbase was too long, the engine wasn't the right design and it just wouldn't do what we wanted it to do.

And I think I, and it also there was a quite a bit of pressure.

Peugeot had basically been told by France, Peugeot, France had told GB that unless they want to race, that programme was over.

So we were under an awful lot of pressure to try and win a couple of races.

And eventually I got into the leader Alton Park and the flipping thing developed an oil leak and it it, I could see the oil coming out, everyone could see it smoking and it basically run out of oil about 3 laps from the end and the engine broke.

So it wasn't.

And then I also, Phil Bennett decided to wind me out at Brands Hatch, had wounded up with me sort of damaging my neck.

So the whole Peugeot episode saga was, yeah, shouldn't have really done it.

Would have been better.

I would have preferred to have stopped my career at BMW rather than do that that year.

It was a it was a tough year.

The big action in that was Steve, that the finale at Brands, I mean it did a lot of damage to you at the time, physical damage.

Is it something you still suffer with now or is it do you still have after the effects of it to this day?

No, because I I got it fixed.

So what happened after that race on the Sunday at Brands?

I I then on Monday morning, I drove to Lincoln.

The BMW dealership was in Lincoln and I had some meetings.

So I, I drove to Lincoln, felt fine, did all the meetings, felt more or less OK didn't think anything a bit sore, but nothing other than that.

And I had a little sort of apartment up there that I stayed when I was up there.

I was normally up there for three or four days a week and I went to bed in my apartment and the next morning I couldn't get out of bed.

I had Vertigo like you cannot believe.

I really, I tried so hard to stand, I couldn't stand up and I then stayed in bed for two days, kept thinking this is going to go away.

I rang my GP and my GP said well don't know you better, you better try and get in and we'll have a look at you.

So in the end my wife had to come up and pick me up and over a couple of hours I eventually managed to stand up and get dressed.

Once I stood up and I stood up for 5-10 minutes I was fine.

No, no Vertigo.

Anyway, kind of Long story short and off I go to the doctor.

They can't see what's wrong with me so they say well you better have a brain scan.

By which time 10 days has gone by since that accident.

So I go and have a brain scan to see what's going on and in the brain has just got bruised in the skull.

Basically the brain has rattled around in the skull and it's all bruised and they can see the bruising on the scan and they say you know that's fine it'll it'll couple more weeks that'll all calm down and you'll be fine.

But at the same time they then notice that the neck there was a problem with my neck and I had a vertebrae which had come unlodged and was very, very close to the spinal cord and was trapping all the nerves.

So but it wasn't really in much pain.

But so off I go to see a surgeon.

I did a load of research which who to put me right and I went to the best guy in the in the England or reputably the best guy and he takes a load of scans and say yeah, well you know, you're 50, it's a dangerous operation, I don't want to do it.

Just change your lifestyle.

So he said no, no skiing, no rugby, no water skiing, no snow skiing and no motor racing.

Change your lifestyle, you'll be fine.

So that was 20 one 2001 I think.

And so I didn't do anything until 2013.

I stopped racing and everything and then one day my left arm went completely numb.

So pins and needles had no feeling in my left arm.

So I off I go back to see my surgeon and I, he looks at me, gets a load more scans and he said, OK.

He said now you, you, you, you don't, you need surgery.

You don't need it next week.

You need it tomorrow or Monday at the latest.

He said now everything's deteriorated and your, your vertebrae is now embedded in the spinal cord.

So he said you need, you need surgery.

So which is what they they did sort of two days later after seeing him.

And that was a four and a half hour operation and they removed 2 vertebrates and a load of discs and replaced them all with carbon cages and some titanium.

And I had to go and see him every month for three months to see what the recovery was coming along like.

And after three months he said no, that's good, I'm happy.

So I said, how strong is that?

He is as strong as when you were 1920 years of age.

He says it's absolutely fun.

I said can I race cars again?

He said, yeah, of course you can.

So that suddenly I had, you know, I don't know, 12 years off and I, so I started the addiction was very easy to get back, get those fixes and start racing again.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we saw you a couple of years ago at brands where you were not only demonstrating you were racing your, your BMW Supertorio that you you have a share in and do you still get the same thrill out of it now?

Well, not when it hits the barrier.

That was hard.

It's all big that day.

That was that, that, that that trail was not.

Yeah, I still enjoy the the guy that actually owns that car.

It's, it's still being repaired as we speak.

We haven't rushed it.

We want it absolutely spot on.

And the guy that owns that car also owns a couple of other cars, which I, he lets me race with him and I do, I mean, I'd be bored stiff if I didn't have the race.

It's not just the driving, it's the, it's, it's the weekend environment of testing, qualifying, racing.

He's, he's still building his racing career.

He's only been at it for a couple of years.

So he's still needs a bit of help to get up to speed and he's getting there, but he's getting frustrated that he's, you know, he can't get the lap time.

That I can do.

But that's good.

He still needs me.

Steve, just want to thank you so much for spending so much of your time with us this evening and looking back at your career.

Any particular highlights in any part of it at all that you look back on and really fondly remember?

The problem is when you're racing as I've done you, you never looked at anything you'd done that was, you know, a week later, a year later.

It was always next race, next season, next con town.

And so you only appreciate what I'd done years later and I looked back, But you know, I had a privileged career.

I worked very, very hard at staying employed.

It wasn't all about winning races.

It was actually staying employed.

And if you go back to the Tim Harvey Championship John Clinton thing in Germany, after three races in DTM, 3-4 races, who, whichever driver BMW had the most points, everyone else then battered for that guy.

So to go to England in BTC and help Tim, that was nothing unusual for me.

It was quite, quite easy to do.

I knew all the tricks and what to do and what not to do.

It just ended up in the wrong, wrong situation, wrong scenario, you know, and I feel sorry for John, but at least he can blame it on me.

He can't blame it on himself for not being quick enough or whatever.

So he's got someone to blame.

Looking back at the rest of the career.

Yeah, I love the Macau thing.

I did.

I did the 24 hour number of ringing us here with Cosworth and won it with the two Klaus's.

The the one of the great memories was I, I did spar 24 hours, I think 8 or 9 times and I couldn't win it.

Every single time that car broke or something happened, one of my team mates crashed or whatever.

He just couldn't win it.

And then in 92 I turned up, we've Begatsi and my wife was expecting my first daughter and when I left she, you know, she was expecting, she wasn't in labour.

And then on I think Friday evening, she rang and said she was in the hospital and in London in labour.

Could I get there?

So I managed to get permission off of them.

Begatsi, the team boss, Raffaelli and I flew back Friday night, was in the hospital for when my daughter was born.

Flew back early hours of Saturday morning, started the race and we won the race on the last lap from Schnitzer and it was trying to think who was it?

Yeah, I think was it?

No, it was.

It was Vander Pol was in a Schnitzer car and that went down in the closest ever finish for any race in history.

So having won it after 9 attempts, I also got a daughter born on the same weekend.

She nearly got called spa, but we managed not to pull the spa alone.

Good say.

But you know, there's, there's lots of great memories.

There's not one.

The Japanese thing was was incredible what the team, the team never had any premises out there.

So for two years they used to fly out and prep the cars out the back of a truck.

They had a couple of trucks out there with all those spares and they would, they would go to the circuit early, get into the paddock and prep the cars and they would fly backwards and forwards.

So to win and it was hugely competitive out there.

You know, Anthony Reed was there, Tom Christensen was there, Justin Bell, Mikhail Krum was there, Andrew Gilbert Scott, there was a lot of good fast drivers apart from all the Japanese, like secure and people like that.

So that was very satisfying to win that championship.

So lots and lots of great sort of memories to look back on one individual.

I don't think so.

There's too many.

Yeah, that's fair, especially with such a varied career that you've had you.

Know yeah, you know, and I I loved the the last bit of my career with the with the sort of prototypes and the the the sort of I don't know what it was called FIA world sports car GT championship, you know again we were racing around the world and I had a teammate like JJ.

It was Snitzer running the car.

It was just just mega.

Yeah, a beautiful car.

That long till McLaren as well.

Yeah, I want 1 little story.

I I'd tell you that car clubs that you know, you you you'd be driving for Zack speed and something would happen that you'd be on the happy about with the with the car.

Something could go wrong or something wasn't done and you'd say under your breath, I bet this doesn't happen at Schnitzer.

I think you'd get to Schnitzer and you know, a similar thing would happen.

You'd say, I bet this doesn't happen at, you know, in F1.

And then obviously then I started working for McLaren and then Williams with them and them preparing cars and we would test with Patrick Head and some of the F1 engineers and then saintly Gordon Murray.

And the difference is it all does happen the same, but it's, it's far more sophisticated when the problem goes wrong and it's covered up.

And I think we've Formula One, it never happens again.

Whereas often with a touring car team, you know, the same problem will already occur.

But doesn't matter where you are, you're, you know, I remember a mechanic once saying to me, oh, well, it's all right.

You know I've made that mistake, but you're a driver.

You know, I'm the mechanic.

You know, it's not my fault I made a mistake.

I said, well, hang on a minute, he said.

He said, well, you sometimes crash.

I said yeah, but I got a millisecond to make a decision and sometimes I get it wrong.

I said you've got 24 hours and you still get it wrong.

And that's where we'll leave it for this week's episode of Stories from Super Touring.

A huge thank you to Steve Sopa for joining us and sharing his incredible journey and career with us for this week's episode.

Steve, thank you.

OK, let me know when it's going out.

I will do, Steve, and thank you to everyone who has listened to this week's episode of the podcast.

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Goodbye.