Heather Shannon (00:01.612)

Hello, my friends. We are back with another guest episode. And this episode is the first ever of its kind in the history of Ask a Sex Therapist because I am introducing my new associate. So welcome to Kristin Vias. Kristin is a sex and intimacy coach, and she's officially joined the Ask a Sex Therapist team. So if you love her, which you will, we'll link in the bio to how you can book a free consultation with her to talk about coaching.

Welcome, Kristin. How are you?

Kristen Vyas (00:33.358)

Good, thank you. How are you?

Heather Shannon (00:35.564)

Good. Kristin and I were just starting to talk about good stuff. And I was like, no more good stuff, Kristin. We have to hit record. Save it for the audience. But one of the things you were saying is that erectile dysfunction is an issue that you help clients with so, often and are really comfortable working with. I kind of have two questions. Why do you think this is such a common issue? And then what approaches do you think help people the most?

Kristen Vyas (01:04.62)

Well, I think this is such a common issue. mean, this really starts back in childhood, right? We don't have good sex education. And we get all of our information. I mean, it's definitely gotten better, but we don't really get a comprehensive idea of what sex really looks like. We have TV, we have movies, we have adult content. And in all of those things,

Um, the penis is kind of the main character and you know, and so when there are problems, I mean, we're dealing with like this body part that is actually really sensitive to mood and you know, anxiety. Um, and then once that kind of, you know, we're, we're, we're using this as like a scorecard of masculinity. So if you're not rock hard the entire time, you're a failure.

Heather Shannon (01:38.892)

You're right.

Heather Shannon (02:07.948)

I hate this for men. Like, it just sucks. Because you're right. It's like, here's this sexual organ that you have, but now this is going to be your whole identity and self-worth. And by the way, nothing fun can happen without it. And it's an enormous amount of pressure if you look at it that way.

Kristen Vyas (02:10.774)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (02:28.45)

Yeah, and they completely get into their heads instead of being in their body and they forget like, yeah, my penis actually isn't the main character. Like it's pleasure and connection that we're really going for, not finishing.

Heather Shannon (02:31.776)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (02:45.558)

Say more about that. I'm kind of fascinated by this main character idea. I like that phrase. So what does it mean to make pleasure or connection the main character versus the penis?

Kristen Vyas (03:01.08)

Well, I think we have this idea when we come in and we, know, when people come in and have sex, it's like, okay, you know, I need to have an orgasm, I need to last really long, I need to, you know, come from vaginal penetration alone, I also need to squirt, so it's like, you also have to put on a water show. Instead of, wow, here's a person in front of me, and every chapter of what we're gonna do can be wonderful and exciting. I get to uncover.

who this person is and who I am with this person. I'm gonna like things and you're gonna like things and some of it might match up, a lot of it might not match up, but we have to, we're gonna create a story together. And what is this story? How can we make each other feel really good?

Heather Shannon (03:51.744)

Yeah, that sounds like you're coming from just such a loving space with that perspective. And I feel like that gets lost, unfortunately. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (03:59.873)

It really does. I recently had somebody came in, they were complaining about erectile dysfunction and I talked to both him and his partner. And when you talk to her, I mean, first of all, he was describing mind blowing sex. Like he was describing everything they were doing and I'm thinking, wow, this sounds amazing. It's so awesome.

Heather Shannon (04:22.38)

Yeah, people were happy about that. Yeah, I've had that too, where I'm what's the problem?

Kristen Vyas (04:27.786)

Yeah, I was like, you know, you sound like an amazing lover. Like, are you hearing what I'm hearing right now? And then she came in alone, which I love, because I love talking to people separately so I can really get their kind of like unfettered, you know, take on what they think is happening without their partner there. And his partner was just like, yeah, like, it's awesome. If he wasn't worried about his penis, like, occasionally getting soft during sex,

Like it wouldn't even be on my radar. And how do I support my partner? Because actually his anxiety was taking him so much out of the moment that she was kind of left there. It's like, wait a second, I want to have sex with you. Like your arms around me and everything else we do when our communication is so top notch. And yet.

Heather Shannon (05:09.877)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (05:14.08)

Yes.

Kristen Vyas (05:21.678)

this story that was running of like, oh my gosh, I am not rock hard in every single situation, was just ruining it. And as women, or as people with vaginas, our arousal goes up and it goes down and nobody really has to know. It's not a big part of the story. We can just kind of ride that and it's so normal. It's like, oh, you're not as wet right now.

Heather Shannon (05:32.864)

That's it.

Heather Shannon (05:41.78)

Right. It's so true.

Kristen Vyas (05:51.631)

Here's a little lube, end of story. And so we can freely move through those waves without really causing a stir. But because the penis is such a visual, like, oh my gosh, I can't penetrate, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. So calm down, let's refocus. And my biggest takeaway, like when we really get to a good place with erectile dysfunction in the office, I always tell people, like, this is...

Heather Shannon (05:52.906)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (06:21.166)

going to be your practice. You want to welcome this happening. And they always look at me like I'm crazy. Yeah. But instead of looking at it like, my god, here comes this disaster. It's like, yeah, here's my practice. I need to refocus. What's going on in my body? What's going on up here? Is there something going on? And if there is, that's OK. wow, yeah, I'm really, really worried right now about work.

Heather Shannon (06:25.804)

Yeah, like, are you smoking?

Kristen Vyas (06:49.182)

Or I'm still thinking about that fight that we had and I'm still holding on to some resentment. That's okay. Take it in. Refocus on your partner. And remember, this is just a thing that we're doing. We're connecting. Even if you have to stop.

Heather Shannon (07:06.828)

There's so many like good little juicy bits in here. Like one thing I'm hearing is the self-fulfilling prophecy where he was actually doing just fine. His partner was like quite happy. But then he hit his mind. was like, I'm not doing good enough. And then because he was in his head, he actually wound up semi abandoning her. And then she wasn't super fulfilled. So I think that's so important for people to realize that like our thoughts are really powerful.

Kristen Vyas (07:20.216)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (07:29.325)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (07:35.061)

And we get to choose them. And they do impact the results that we have. So I don't know. I love giving people nicer feeling thoughts, basically, is what I'm hearing. You are a whole person. You are not just a penis. And I know for myself, guys ask a lot about penis size. And I get it, because society is telling them it's the main character. I'm totally stealing that, by the way.

Kristen Vyas (07:47.981)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (08:00.065)

Thank

Heather Shannon (08:02.784)

they're telling us the main character that's like, rape my penis, is my penis good enough this or that? And it's like, at least for me, and I think for most women probably, it's like, I'm more interested in the person the penis is attached to, you know?

Kristen Vyas (08:16.962)

Yeah. Well, if all you're bringing to the situation is an enormous penis, like you're going to be pretty disappointing. There's so many other things that we need besides whatever is going on below the belt.

Heather Shannon (08:27.286)

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. So I guess it's not to say that, like, the penis doesn't matter. It's just kind of like putting it in the proper perspective that, like, who you are as a human is always going to be more important than what your penis is doing or how big your penis is or how hard it is, you know?

Kristen Vyas (08:44.515)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (08:49.058)

Yeah, it's like first let's start with how well are you attuning to your partner? You know, let's talk about kissing and touch and checking in and you know, all of these are the things that really can make you such a great erotic lover rather than, wow, you know, here's my penis.

Heather Shannon (09:09.258)

Yeah, I like that. I also think it's fun in our jobs. Someone comes in for one thing, and it's like, yes, I will help you get your penis working better, but also all these other things that don't center the penis.

Kristen Vyas (09:19.042)

Yeah!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like maybe we can talk about the fact that like we need to maybe work on some eye contact, you know, or like just. Yeah, there was something else I was going to say, but I forgot.

Heather Shannon (09:38.038)

Well, I think the thing that I'm taking away from what you're saying so far is just being a whole person, but then also seeing your partner as a whole person. Because really what's happening is you're kind of objectifying yourself a little bit.

Kristen Vyas (09:55.927)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (09:57.313)

Which is interesting. And I think that we internalize all these messages, like you said, from movies, from porn, whatever, that are not always serving us. And so it's like step one is to realize that you've internalized it.

Kristen Vyas (10:12.194)

Yeah, and there's, I mean, there's so much pressure and it's so understandable because even if a man is having sex or somebody with a penis is having sex and their erection goes down, their vagina having partner can immediately jump to what's wrong. There's something wrong with me. They're not turning me on. So you've got pressure with the person that knows like, great, now I'm disappointing her.

Heather Shannon (10:31.921)

yes. Yes. That's a flip side.

Kristen Vyas (10:40.918)

So that really feeds in. And then they don't realize, like when you watch adult content, mean, there's millions of takes and there's Viagra. I mean, and also these men are typically not chosen because of their looks. It's penis size and how well they can perform with tons of people around.

Heather Shannon (10:51.456)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (11:03.03)

Yep. Yep. You're right.

Kristen Vyas (11:06.242)

There's something that I always say in my office is we don't watch Star Wars so that we can learn about space.

Heather Shannon (11:14.312)

my god. You have the best analogies

Kristen Vyas (11:19.566)

It's a movie, we watch it because it's fun, right? We're not like, wow, okay, so how does this all work here? But that's what we do with adult content. Because there's just, there's nothing else.

Heather Shannon (11:23.274)

Yeah!

Heather Shannon (11:30.476)

We % do it. yeah, we don't have, I mean, thank God for podcasts, honestly, because we are censored. I mean, everyone listening, keep listening to this. Listen to all the sex podcasts you can, all the podcasts in general, because it's the only place that creators are not censored. Like, it's insane. You know? Like, I get censored on every single social media platform, which is why I don't post a lot.

Kristen Vyas (11:47.373)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (11:54.723)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (11:55.605)

You know, it's discouraging to be like, I'm going to put some care into creating this thing. And then, you know, the views will be downregulated. But at least podcasting is a space where people can actually learn. That's how I look at it.

Kristen Vyas (12:07.202)

Yeah, and so many people really aren't aware of that, especially people in their late teens or 20s where you're really just starting to actually have sexual partners. You're watching content.

Heather Shannon (12:22.244)

100%. Because you're curious. And I think that's normal. I I remember being a teenager. This was so funny. I don't know if I've told this on the podcast. My mom and my stepdad at the time sat me and my brother down, because my stepdad was good with computers. And they were like, somebody's been visiting porn sites.

Heather Shannon (12:45.92)

And I'm like, shit, it was me. But then I think they automatically thought it was my brother because he was a boy, which is also so interesting. And then like decades later, my brother and I were like, it was both of us.

Kristen Vyas (12:59.534)

you

Heather Shannon (13:01.49)

terrible shaming conversation which I mean of course they probably meant well and thought they were protecting us or something but yeah it's like I don't know how can we give kids helpful info

Kristen Vyas (13:16.546)

Well, mean, one thing I think they can do is that, like, a lot of people have that, sex talk, right? And then it's like, okay, well, that's done. And it's like, no, this should be an ongoing dialogue as your child gets older and older because they're gonna have different questions. They're gonna hear things at school. And if your child, whatever age they are, happens upon adult content,

I think what people forget because people get so scared like, my God, they saw something. It's like, okay, let's have a conversation. Like, what did you see? You know, and talk about like, wow, okay, that's interesting. Let's talk about how that is different from real life. You know, maybe not everybody squirts like that, or maybe not everybody wants to be choked. Let's start there.

Heather Shannon (14:06.892)

Right, Because that's become an issue.

Kristen Vyas (14:10.19)

yes! yes, the way people are just ready to just wrap their head around a neck.

Heather Shannon (14:12.32)

The token? Yeah!

Heather Shannon (14:16.854)

Do not choose it with a stranger without asking them first.

Kristen Vyas (14:20.044)

Yeah, so, and that's a whole other thing of mainstream porn weaving in elements of BDSM with absolutely zero context, no negotiation, no consent, just like, yeah, this is what everybody's into. It's scary. And I don't have anything against adult content, obviously, but there just needs to be a dialogue.

Heather Shannon (14:38.304)

Yeah, it's.

Heather Shannon (14:42.218)

No. Yes.

Kristen Vyas (14:46.604)

because people are still watching it like it's a documentary.

Heather Shannon (14:51.276)

Correct. And I mean, some adult content is more consent-focused or I'm trying to think which one. I think there's some of the kink.com ones where at the end, they kind of show the performer saying her actual opinion of how things went or something. And you're like, that's a nice touch. And then I know there's the Make Love Not Porn website, which is the actual couples. I like that one because you see some of the awkwardness sometimes.

Kristen Vyas (14:56.131)

Yes.

Kristen Vyas (15:06.539)

Yes.

Kristen Vyas (15:14.04)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (15:18.113)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Heather Shannon (15:19.852)

It's like, normal people, still having a great time, yay.

Kristen Vyas (15:24.642)

Yeah, yeah, although I find that unfortunately the most accessible porn is stuff that doesn't have that because it's not behind a paywall. So you have these, you know, like teenagers, they have phones, they discover it. And it has to be a secret because they're, you know, they're thinking, my God, my mom and dad are gonna kill me if they find out that I'm watching this instead of being like, you know what?

Heather Shannon (15:34.89)

No, you're completely correct. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (15:52.462)

She actually stumbled upon something and I have some questions.

Heather Shannon (15:55.659)

Those very, very good points that you're making. And I mean, I've said on the show before, like, pay for your porn. I had a former Brazzers producer on who left the industry. And yeah, he was talking about that. And also just the AI. I don't know. There's a lot happening right now.

Kristen Vyas (16:13.879)

God, yeah, yeah. Right, so there's no, there's

Heather Shannon (16:20.231)

attracted to humans? mean, I don't know. I don't know what's gonna happen.

Kristen Vyas (16:23.532)

Yeah, I think paying for your porn is so important. mean, if you are, especially when you're paying the creator directly, you know, I mean, I'm not a huge fan of the way OnlyFans treats its, you know, the people that basically pay their bills, but, you know, these are people that are running their own pages. They are consenting to everything. They're deciding, what do I want to do? Who do I want to work with?

These things are very important and you're actually paying somebody directly. And so you have, even if you never speak to that person, you have this relationship of like, yeah, I'm supporting this person right here, which I think makes a difference.

Heather Shannon (17:03.436)

It is cool. I think so too. It's more personal. Yeah, human to human. OK, so let's get into some of your other expertise areas. So kink, and we also talked about shame. And I don't know if you want to talk about those together or separately. But yeah. OK, cool. OK, great. So yeah, what kind of things do people come to you with when it comes to kink? Like, what are people struggling with?

Kristen Vyas (17:08.108)

Yes.

Kristen Vyas (17:22.094)

definitely together.

Kristen Vyas (17:33.475)

I would say these days they come in and there's, I mean, first tons of shame over the thing that they're into. And they come up against like a couple of different scenarios. Either they have told their partner and it really didn't go well, or they're kind of living this double life or they have this huge kink. It has to be totally separate because I could never, I could never tell my wife or girlfriend about this.

Um, and so first, like unraveling that shame is a huge part of the process. And so, you know, you find out whatever somebody is, is into, it doesn't even matter. It doesn't even matter what the kink is. You have to just drill down to like how they want to feel. Oh, because I mean, if you take like a million billion kinks and they all funnel down to these real core desires.

of how people want to feel, which are very common everyday human feelings that people like to feel. And so that really normalizes it for people and helps them like, yeah, okay, like I'm into this thing, but how I want to feel is actually really normal. And when you can understand that about yourself, that gives you a much clearer pathway into talking to your partner about what you like and why you like it.

Heather Shannon (18:58.912)

Yeah, that's amazing. And it's so true. I just met with a new client and

part of what they're going to be addressing is one of their kinks. And the other one knows about it, so that's helpful. But the emotions that they were talking about, it's like when we did engage in this more often, even when it wasn't super often, it was like, oh, I feel more connected. This is the closest I felt to you in the history of our relationship. And so it was. It was about connection and closeness and sharing this part of yourself that you don't really share with other people.

and feeling seen and accepted for, you know, it's just, it's actually quite lovely.

Kristen Vyas (19:45.103)

Yeah, what you just said about being seen is such a huge part of it. mean, imagine you're going 20, 30 years into a marriage, you're super into this thing, and your partner is just not seeing you, not seeing that part of you that can be, I mean, especially if you have a fetish when it's just an enormous part of your sexuality that almost, it's either you have to be doing it or you have to be thinking about it in order to really enjoy yourself. And for that to just be,

Heather Shannon (19:54.657)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (20:15.054)

I'm

Heather Shannon (20:16.224)

Yeah, I know. It's super tough. I mean,

Kristen Vyas (20:17.485)

is

Heather Shannon (20:21.43)

this this was something I'm not going to get into my specifics, but this was something I saw a hypnotherapist for a while and some of the sexual inclinations came up. And I remember being like, is this healthy for me? Is this like, OK? And it was so helpful to like have someone supporting and going through that process with me because I realized like, this is actually healthy for me. This is a part that maybe otherwise doesn't get to experience because I think of things in terms of parts, you know, as an IFS therapist. But this is a part that's like

you know, getting to come out and play, you know, and have pleasure. And it's like, yeah, that's good. We want to integrate our parts, you know. But it's also figuring out kind of the container, you know, like what is the container they can safely play in. So, yeah.

Kristen Vyas (20:57.006)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (21:03.246)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (21:13.997)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that, I think when you really drill down to those, you know, core desires and like if somebody's not into your thing, that whole process of like, how do we work with this? You know, do, can we make a bridge and, you know, weave it in or do we take turns? And I think a lot of times, you know, it can become such this like huge, huge part of your, you know, brain. And then when you finally get to do it,

It's like a valve. It's like, wow, I was really seen and accepted and I got to do this thing and I got to feel this thing. And it can actually become much more manageable when you actually have a real outlet with your partner. Something that you feel like, my god, I think I have to do this all the time. Maybe not. Maybe just being able to be seen, just depending on what the kink is, if it's more intense. Just being able to do it.

Heather Shannon (22:10.442)

Yes!

Heather Shannon (22:15.596)

Yeah, like feeling accepted. Like, OK, now they know they're not running away from me. There's, some degree, embracing this part. I love that. Can I ask, what do you think are some of the more common kinks or fetishes that people struggle to share with partners? Because I kind of want to just normalize it for anyone listening.

Kristen Vyas (22:36.002)

I would say anything related to bodily fluids, age play, cross-dressing is a big one because it's so, so common. There's just so much fear. It really goes into, again, just how much pressure there is on men to just be this ultra

Heather Shannon (22:40.256)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (22:48.266)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (22:52.469)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (23:05.57)

you know, boy masculine, burly, tough. And I mean, I've worked with so many cross dressers in my career. my goodness. And you know, it's like women's clothes are softer. There's more pattern. There's more styles. Like they're pretty, you know? And you know, if you really love tapping into that,

Heather Shannon (23:14.196)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (23:34.935)

Like, how do you keep that a secret? And yet people do, you know? And there's like all these horror stories of clients coming in and saying like, my God, you know, she found my like box in the back of the closet that had like all my panties in there or, you know, all of my like clothes or, you know, I ordered something and she got the mail and she was like, you know, this isn't my size. And it's because it was for him. And then, you know, and then there

you know, female partner is like, oh my gosh, are you gay or what does this mean? And and then just, mean, just the shame is just overwhelming.

Heather Shannon (24:12.48)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (24:18.156)

Yeah, this was one of the clients that made me want to become a sex therapist. I had a cross-dressing client. just realizing how kind of intense it can feel emotionally in the shame and how important it was to have a safe space to discuss that was very impactful. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (24:23.534)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (24:34.124)

Yeah. Yeah. So I would say, you know, like anything taboo, anything that society deems is like, ew, you you're into pee or, you know, it's just, you know, there's like,

Heather Shannon (24:47.254)

Hmm.

Cuckolding, what do you think about that? I know it's getting kind of more mainstream, but.

Kristen Vyas (24:54.091)

cuckoo? yeah, I definitely think that's mainstream.

Heather Shannon (24:58.668)

think people can still struggle with sharing that one. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (25:01.064)

yes, because again, this is like, my gosh, I'm not gonna be masculine enough. It's like there's things that are deemed emasculating.

Heather Shannon (25:07.188)

Yeah!

Yes, there's a theme emerging here in this conversation.

Kristen Vyas (25:14.134)

Yeah, and really, mean, I feel like women have their own mountain of struggles that they have to deal with. But I think one thing that is not talked about enough is just the humongous amount of pressure on men. I mean, everything that we've talked about today with men's issues just is like, I'm not masculine enough. If I do this, nobody's going to think that I'm a man.

Heather Shannon (25:30.112)

Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Shannon (25:35.18)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (25:43.82)

I hate that.

Kristen Vyas (25:43.82)

And women don't, this is the one thing that where we actually get, you know, we sort of have an advantage.

Heather Shannon (25:50.765)

I agree. I'm like having this conversation, I'm like, this is an area where I'm glad I get to be in a female body. I'm like, right. Right?

Kristen Vyas (25:57.773)

Right? Yeah. Do you want to dress masculine? Go ahead. Do you want to kiss a girl? No problem. You know, it's just, we could go, you can go out, you can kiss a girl, you can come back and you could be like, yeah, that was really fun. I don't think that really defines who I am or I don't feel like I need to make a decision about myself. I just went and enjoyed myself and now here I am. Like if you have a penis and you are identifying as a heterosexual cis man.

Heather Shannon (26:10.924)

You're still yourself? Yeah.

Heather Shannon (26:19.381)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (26:25.932)

You say, you I went out, I got drunk, kissed my best friend. It was super fun. And now I'm going to go about my day. What kind of reaction are they going to get? my god, are you bi? Are you gay? And it's, I mean.

Heather Shannon (26:39.808)

Right. Am I not even allowed to be bi?

Kristen Vyas (26:43.296)

No, no, no. Totally gay or totally straight, that's it.

Heather Shannon (26:48.812)

God, it is, it's crazy. I mean, when I did my sex therapy training, we had a class where we explored gender. And one of the things that came up was that it's like there's a box of what female looks like, and there's a box of what like male or masculine looks like. But the male box is just so much smaller.

Kristen Vyas (27:04.842)

Yes.

Heather Shannon (27:05.236)

You know, it's like in female box like you said, we can be a tomboy, we can wear makeup, we cannot, we can have short hair, we can have long hair, we can wear dresses, we cannot wear dresses, you know, and it's like, there's all these options of how to like express who you are in a female body as someone who identifies as female. But yeah, for men, it's like, it's kind of like one way.

Kristen Vyas (27:19.819)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (27:24.854)

Yeah. it's, you know, people are, when people talk about gender, I mean, and I know this with a lot of like younger clients. and you know, I, I, I have a teenager and so I talk about it with them too, but you know, it's like, what am I? You know, am I male, female, my non-binary, my gender non-conforming? It's like, you know, you can, can, if it helps you to have a label, that's fantastic. But just, you know, remember like, just kind of keep it in your mind. Like we made all this up.

We've got these parts. If I ask my cat, are you a man or a woman or a male? I just feel like, what are you talking about? I'm just living in the world here.

Heather Shannon (28:04.042)

Right.

Heather Shannon (28:09.46)

It's just, I know, it's very crazy. And I am excited that, I think some like celebrity men are just like playing with fashion more and like wearing dresses and painting their nails. And I think especially when they're successful or when they're like muscular or whatever, they can get away with that more. And so I think that like, it's a way to push the envelope. Yes, they're still holding on to some of the kind of like, this is what masculine is trappings, but I think it's still progress.

Kristen Vyas (28:19.123)

and I'm dead.

Kristen Vyas (28:35.842)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (28:38.048)

that we're pushing the envelope a little bit.

Kristen Vyas (28:40.054)

Yeah, yeah. You know, when I talk to younger people about their sexuality, it's almost the same thing, where they want to put themselves in a box because it feels very grounding. And it's like, you know, your sexuality is like a universe. You know, it's going to change and grow and morph into different things. And if you just allow that to come in, like first start with, like, how do I feel? What do feel today? Who do I want to spend my time with? Who am I really attracted to? And

Heather Shannon (29:03.979)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (29:08.908)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (29:09.75)

that can turn into something else slowly over time. We don't know.

Heather Shannon (29:13.77)

I feel like you should be in charge of sex ed for the country.

Heather Shannon (29:20.108)

Somebody like you doing sex ed, I would have felt so much more comfortable as like a teenager.

Kristen Vyas (29:24.984)

Can you imagine what the current administration would do?

Heather Shannon (29:28.268)

I'm imagining and that is scaring me a lot. And that's why I'm like, at least we have podcasts. It's like the one thing I'm holding on to, but

Kristen Vyas (29:30.986)

Thank

Kristen Vyas (29:35.182)

My mother-in-law will be like, you know, you should write a letter and you should talk about, you know, what needs to happen. I'm like, this, it's, my letter is going to be thrown right in the trash right now. It's not like to the government.

Heather Shannon (29:45.037)

And some of my other sex coach colleagues are like, literally, how do I get out of this country? And can I just go be anywhere else? But I I'm getting a citizenship in Croatia. I'm working on it. Just as plan B. Plan A is to stay here. yeah, well, I live in Florida. So also, we're a little extra special here and have an abortion ban in place where it's like six weeks. People don't even freaking know if they're pregnant.

Kristen Vyas (30:00.889)

Okay, Plan B, OASIA.

Kristen Vyas (30:11.635)

my god.

Heather Shannon (30:13.238)

So it's just nuts. We're needed. Yeah, we need to just keep talking about this.

Kristen Vyas (30:19.79)

Yeah, you know, I mean, it's moving like this boulder finally moving. I mean, sex ed, when I was a kid, I mean, I think you got it in like the fifth grade. And then there was a little snippet in high school of basically like, here's all the diseases you can get and please wear a condom and like you're on your way, you know, but and so now, I mean, even in fifth grade, like the curriculum is much, much better. It is like, you know, it was really

Heather Shannon (30:30.22)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (30:45.036)

encouraging that you okay if this is where you live probably not in Florida

Kristen Vyas (30:50.654)

It's definitely better. I have two kids that have gone through elementary school now and so looking at, I read everything that comes through and I'm always so excited like, my God, what are they talking about? And it's definitely better. I would say it's pretty good at the elementary school level. Like, junior high and I think, I feel like they do something in ninth grade too. I can't remember now, but I mean, there's still no talk about.

Pleasure. Yeah. You know, they do talk about consent. One thing that I really wish that they could cover is just communication.

Heather Shannon (31:21.996)

would be just too like, thing to people.

Heather Shannon (31:32.576)

Yes, so let's talk about that.

Kristen Vyas (31:34.979)

Like, you I think people meet, you you meet a partner and at first it's just all fantasy, right? It's just new relationship energy. You're like, your best commercial, they're their best commercial, you know, it's all lies. And then you really get down into the the nitty gritty. And, but in that real kind of beginning stage, how fun is it to just be like, you know, what do you like? Like, let's have a conversation about sex before we...

Heather Shannon (31:52.491)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (32:04.426)

even have sex, like what's fun? What's really juicy for you? What do you like to feel? And I know that people with more extreme kinks, that's when the fear really sets in of like, my God, this is such a wonderful person. They're my perfect partner. I could never, I could never tell them what I'm really into. And so it immediately gets filed into the things my partner should never know.

Heather Shannon (32:29.193)

Yes, this is what in IFS we call this exiled parts You just like shove them in the dark basement corner of your psyche and try to never let them out

Kristen Vyas (32:36.662)

Yeah, and unfortunately, you know, those bastards will really climb their way out one way or the other, whether it's gonna come through. Yeah. But just being able to talk about stuff. And, you know, it's great to talk about consent and to teach it in schools and to, you know, go into that. But the how is really...

Heather Shannon (32:44.17)

Shockingly, they don't like being in prison. Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (32:53.098)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (33:04.618)

not talked about enough, like in the moment. How do you ask for consent in the moment? Let's say, you know, let's go back to our like choking example. You know, instead of like wrapping your hands right around somebody's throat, you know, like that's, mean, that's one that you asked beforehand, but even in the moment, like, how's that feeling? Or does this feel good? Like, you know, coming in gently, like, does that feel good? Okay, no, it doesn't. Okay.

Heather Shannon (33:14.26)

Yeah, yeah, great.

Kristen Vyas (33:35.797)

And wrapping that up with a, like, thank you for telling me. Just having conversation or having consent conversations that are soft and just gently inquiring. Not a, is it okay if I choke you right now? know, it doesn't have to be clunky or weird. It's really a way of connecting of like, I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna just.

Heather Shannon (33:39.884)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (33:49.931)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (34:06.646)

you about your boundaries because I really want to be close to you. One of the greatest things that I learned in Somatica about boundaries is telling somebody like I really want to know your boundaries because that is how I get to have you.

Heather Shannon (34:21.653)

God, that's like romantic and sexy to say that.

Kristen Vyas (34:24.514)

I love that one because it's like, wanna know what's okay and not okay because once I can really respect those and move around that, I really get to be closer to you because you're gonna feel safer with me and you're gonna learn more.

Heather Shannon (34:35.017)

Yes.

Heather Shannon (34:40.009)

Yeah, it reminds me of like, for some reason, I picture like a corral of horses. There's like a little fence around the horses. And it's like, you just need to know where the fence is so that you can play in frolic. You know, when you don't know where the fence is that in and of itself, for me, and I think for a lot of people can lead to some anxiety and being a little in your head. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (34:51.576)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (35:01.256)

yeah, yeah. If you like imagine, you know, walking across the Golden Gate Bridge and there's like no sides, that's really a scary place to be. But what do know the boundaries are?

Heather Shannon (35:14.699)

Yeah, or there's like an invisible electric fence and you're gonna get shocked, but you just don't know when or where

Kristen Vyas (35:20.076)

Yeah, you don't know where the fence is at all.

Heather Shannon (35:22.217)

Right, like that sounds horrible. And yet, this is what most people do with sex.

Kristen Vyas (35:27.244)

Yeah, and then we become really afraid of each other's boundaries, you know, and it's all about pushing the boundaries or, you know, instead of being like, okay, so these are the things that make my partner feel safe. What can I really do to beef that up so that they know that they can really relax with me?

Heather Shannon (35:46.972)

angle of it. Like how can I increase the safety? It is much more about, like I think boundaries often feel like pushing someone away, you know? And I like this reframe of like instead of even focusing on that, the boundary, how do I just increase the safety? It's a really good angle.

Kristen Vyas (35:53.902)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (36:03.862)

Yeah. And that's really kind of a low key way of helping somebody relax into even, you know, relaxing that boundary at all. You know, if somebody says, you know what, I'm just, get really self-conscious, you know, during sex. And so I really need to have all the lights off. It's like, okay, instead of saying, how about a candle? You know, like, let's, okay, like, let's just turn it off. Let's really increase that safety.

Heather Shannon (36:14.772)

Right.

Heather Shannon (36:30.387)

Right. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (36:34.188)

And then moving into the person could be like, you know what, maybe a candle is okay at some point. Maybe just the lowest level of light. But if it's like, no, you know what, I need to look right in your face. We need to have extreme eye contact the whole time. All the lights are on. We're actually gonna get a ring light in. It's like, really is gonna make somebody really bunch up. And then you're never gonna have that person feel open to you.

Heather Shannon (37:01.131)

So a lot of it, what I'm hearing too, is like patience. You like you kind of got to give someone the space to be where they're at.

Kristen Vyas (37:08.374)

Yeah, well, and I think that impatience really is coming from fear, right? Of like, no, I'm not gonna get them the way that I want. So anxiety comes and you're like, no, I've gotta push the boundary, I've gotta figure out how to get through. And that's where you're gonna be shooting yourself in the foot with your partner.

Heather Shannon (37:15.06)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (37:24.565)

People can always sense that, you know, and our bodies especially are so intuitive. I always have felt like my body knows before my mind knows if someone's feeling kind of safe and secure or not, you know.

Kristen Vyas (37:37.997)

Yeah, I don't know if this is like going off on a weird path, but you know, it reminds me of the difference between, you know, people that are kinky and not, you know, they don't classify them. I think everybody's a little bit kinky, we'll just keep vanilla just, you know, for ease. But is that in kink, it's so normal to have these conversations about like boundaries and consent and negotiating of like, okay,

Heather Shannon (37:54.099)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (38:06.744)

What do we want to happen? Or how do we want to feel? And this is what I'm going to say when I'm a little uncomfortable. Or this is what I'm going to say when we really need to stop because something bad's going on inside of me. Without kink, it's like all these conversations tend to not happen. And everybody just starts assuming, OK, I think I know what's going to happen. And your partner has something totally different in mind. And then we're going to just come together and hope for the best.

and then there's all this disappointment.

Heather Shannon (38:38.761)

Yeah, it's tough. I'm even thinking as we're talking about this, because you're right, it's more normalized in the King community. If you're not part of that, and just because sexual behavior is categorized as quote unquote vanilla, doesn't mean everyone's going to like it. So I'm also now just questioning, why do we only ask about certain things? Other things are kind of like vanilla, that means everyone's going to like them. But I have plenty of clients who aren't even that into kissing or don't really love oral sex.

Kristen Vyas (38:56.301)

Right.

Kristen Vyas (39:06.528)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, the kissing thing is like a huge one. Because there are people that just like, that's not really an important thing. And for your partner, they love like big, sloppy kisses. And so you get together and you're like, you know, gosh, and then they don't talk about it.

Heather Shannon (39:10.462)

Yeah!

Heather Shannon (39:18.143)

Well,

Heather Shannon (39:24.425)

Right. Right. A lot of times people just kind of avoid the kissing, and then eventually the partner kind of gets the drips. They're like, OK, I guess you're just not into this. But yeah, if you can have a conversation about it and explain, I think that often helps. Yeah, it the mouth sounds? Some people have like misophonia. It's like 10 % of the population hates mouth sounds just based on their genetics. Yeah. And so it's like, OK, well, let's.

Kristen Vyas (39:31.49)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (39:47.809)

wow, yeah.

Heather Shannon (39:52.256)

Let's identify if that's what's going on. Some people, maybe it's a textural issue. just understand. I work with lot of neurodivergent people. I'm neurodivergent. So a lot of times, there's just different sensory issues that we need to understand, too. And I do think this is what can make it harder when it's a new partner or more of a casual partner. But I say, still, you've got to at least have the basic consent conversations and safe conversations.

Kristen Vyas (40:18.104)

Mm-hmm.

I was listening to Dan Lynch a while back and he was saying that one thing that he was really grateful for about being gay is that when two, you know, gay men are talking and they're talking about sex, they really launch into early, what are you into? It's a very, like, honest, open, straightforward conversation, whereas heterosexual couples, it's like a secret.

Heather Shannon (40:23.403)

Thank

Kristen Vyas (40:48.674)

you know, until like they've had sex 10 times. And then it's maybe okay to talk about like likes and dislikes and preferences.

Heather Shannon (40:57.867)

interesting because I mean, I've had interesting experiences with that just like on dating apps. I'm like, how forward do I want to be because it's like I'm already a freaking sex therapist, you know, one point and at one point I was like pimping out my podcast. So I was like, my job is host of ask a sex therapist podcast that people would like listen to the podcast. I had one guy listen to like 80 episodes before our first date and I was like, fuck, this is weird. And he was like, yes, I learned a lot of things about you. I'm like, yes, I guess I do a tidbit in each episode and they add up.

Kristen Vyas (41:14.67)

Listen to this!

Kristen Vyas (41:23.886)

my god.

And then you know nothing about this person.

Heather Shannon (41:29.629)

I'm like this is so weird. This is like not a great way to like get to know me

Kristen Vyas (41:33.262)

It really depends on the app, right? What you can share. Like if you're on Bumble, you're just like, you know, I like midnight walks. But if you're on, you know, field, then you can like really kind of throw everything out there.

Heather Shannon (41:46.55)

But then you'll see the same people on the different, it's it's very funny. And then I'm like, I'm the same person. Maybe I should put the same things on all the apps. Like, do I care?

Kristen Vyas (41:48.833)

No.

Kristen Vyas (41:54.485)

I know. Yeah.

Heather Shannon (41:55.884)

But then I feel like, and I think a lot of women probably experience this, is like, if a guy asks a little bit about sex, if you engage at all, kind of like give him an interview, it'll take a mile. So I wound up taking some of that off my profile because I just didn't want that many people kind of coming at me and trying to make the whole conversation about sex. I'm like, this is like 10 % of what I put my profile and you're making it 100 % of the focus.

Kristen Vyas (42:21.486)

That is like such a good point because it's like, know, let's say you have in your profile, like you're, you know, you're into bondage, you know, and then somebody comes in and it's like, you know, yeah, I'm super into bondage, but not necessarily with you. Like, you know, there's still needs to be like conversation here. Like I'm not bondage the very first time I talked to you, you know.

Heather Shannon (42:28.64)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (42:41.5)

Yes!

Heather Shannon (42:45.771)

Right, right. Like I actually want to like decide if I like you as a human or maybe kiss you first or just see if we have any chemistry. And so that's kind of where I'm at where like I want to establish chemistry and if I even like this person first and then have the conversation or some I mean, like you said, it's ongoing. It's not like a one and done with the conversation. But yeah, I do think on the field app or places like that, you're at least going to get a higher percentage of people that

Kristen Vyas (42:51.128)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (42:57.208)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (43:03.374)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (43:13.267)

or maybe more experienced. I think the more experienced people tend to not objectify you as much because they're like, OK, I've done this. I kind of get how it works. They also want to get to know you as a human. But I think other people are just like, ooh, titillating, exciting. Let's talk more about that.

Kristen Vyas (43:19.714)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (43:30.21)

Yeah, I do still see it even with very experienced people with like the dom sub dynamic where if you identify as a dominant, people will immediately message you with, know, hello goddess or whatever. And it's like, wait, we're just people right now. You know, like I haven't decided that, you know, I'm going to own you or that you're going to be my submissive. Like, and you don't even, you're going to like me as a dom. So like, let's just hold on and really.

Heather Shannon (43:46.826)

Peace.

Heather Shannon (43:58.005)

Yeah!

Kristen Vyas (43:58.755)

be intentional about this dynamic that we're talking about or like if you're submissive, know, like somebody messaging you out of nowhere, like, are you gonna be my little girl? It's like, wait, can we just talk about like how I wanna feel?

Heather Shannon (44:09.831)

Yeah, yeah, like probably not based on that opening.

Kristen Vyas (44:13.851)

Absolutely no.

But then it's like, how many messages are you sending to people?

Heather Shannon (44:22.475)

Well, I know. And I think it goes back to what you said with the erectile dysfunction of being a whole person and treating people like a whole person. It's like, obviously, think sexuality is important or I wouldn't do this work. But it's just one aspect of who we are.

You know, it's like all these different roles in life. You know, we have, we're a family member and we're a friend and we're a worker and we're, you know, we have hobbies we engage in or volunteering we do, you know, it's like, you can be lots of things at once. And I think that's important to keep in mind, like when an anxiety comes up about your sexuality, it's like that is not all of who you are. It's one piece of the pie.

Kristen Vyas (44:57.923)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (45:00.767)

So we've a lot more work to do, Kristin. I suppose. I suppose. But part of me is like, I'd love to be out of a job because the culture is so healthy and healed with sexuality. If we get to that point, I'm happy to be out of a job. I'll find something else to do.

Kristen Vyas (45:06.766)

think of that, right? Or else we'd be out of a job. It's like, well, I'm...

Kristen Vyas (45:16.044)

Yes.

Heather Shannon (45:24.267)

But yeah, so it is nice to see signs that we're starting to get there. OK, let me see if there was anything else I wanted to ask you about. Low desire. We didn't talk about the low desire. So what do you commonly see with that?

Kristen Vyas (45:37.967)

The biggest thing is coming in, I usually see women with this, but that's not across the board whatsoever. my first question is, what is your life situation? And can you think of a time when your desire was higher? And how is that not matching up?

Heather Shannon (45:54.571)

Hmm?

Heather Shannon (45:59.777)

Yes.

Kristen Vyas (46:04.526)

And a lot of times with women, like you said something earlier about like when a guy asks you about, know, what are you into? I know for a lot of people that are around my age, that question wasn't really asked to me for a very long time. I remember sharing something as a teenager with a boyfriend. It was like a fantasy. And then he thought it was a very slutty fantasy. And did not know anything so good about it. I know.

And so it was like, okay, well, that didn't go for well. And so really when you ask women, like, what are you into? It's like, it's silence. It's like, well, you know, and it's like, and so, and even asking like, what do you fantasize about? that is like such a hard question for people. Like, I know when we first sit down, I know they're gonna be lying to me because it's like, they're not really ready to bring up anything.

Heather Shannon (46:41.971)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (46:45.931)

Yes.

Heather Shannon (47:00.191)

No.

Kristen Vyas (47:03.714)

They don't wanna tell me the real thing. And so, like I have a core desires sheet that I'll often hand people and it's really just a list of like a bunch of feelings. And they, know, circle the ones that pop out to you like, ooh, I really like feeling this during sex. And a lot of them don't, know, they're not complimentary all the time. mean, they're just, they're like total opposites.

You know, somebody wants to feel like honored and they also want to feel like degraded. so, you know, like, let's just look at all the things. And so, you know, once they've circled all their words, it's like, OK, so let's take a look at this. And how many of these feelings are really showing up for you the last, you know, 10, 20, 50 times you had sex? Zero. So they're not really having the kind of sex that they want to have. And then they're blamed.

Heather Shannon (47:33.51)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (47:56.793)

for not being horny. And then you add in all of the light stuff that can just totally kill your arousal. And they have like nothing to go on. And then they're blamed for having a dead bedroom. And it's.

Heather Shannon (48:11.722)

Yeah, and then there's the pressure, and then the pressure itself makes the libido go down even more.

Kristen Vyas (48:16.78)

Yeah, yeah. And then they get into this thing, you know, where their partner will say like, well, you know, we had sex a few weeks ago and it was so hot and like, what happened? And, know, the person with a low desire sitting there like, I don't know, you know, it just, it just somehow worked. And then, but then now there's, there's this bar, right? Of like, okay, how do I get myself aroused like that again? How do I get myself in the mood? And that pressure of like trying to get horny.

is awful. it's it's it totally is taking you out of your body, which is working in the opposite direction of where you want to go. Because now you're trying to solve this like a math problem.

Heather Shannon (48:59.562)

Right, that's an unsexy way to solve sex.

Kristen Vyas (49:01.644)

very unsexy. Not that sexy.

Heather Shannon (49:05.484)

I love math, I do, but it's very different. Not helpful mode. Unless you're, I don't know, know there's tapio-sexuals out there, maybe they're like, oh yeah, do that math.

Kristen Vyas (49:07.374)

Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (49:16.662)

Right? Maybe it is sexy. Yeah, maybe it is sexy. For me, not that sexy.

Heather Shannon (49:24.788)

So I think what you're describing with the low desire people is understandable. I think people can definitely relate to that. What do you find is most helpful for them in finding their desire again?

Kristen Vyas (49:37.391)

Probably finding their core desire. That's number one, is how do they want to feel? And I mean, there are so many women that I see that just have never really had that full conversation with their partner. Or their partner is coming in with their own goal-oriented ideas of what sex should look like. But the woman doesn't have that idea. I had somebody come in.

Heather Shannon (49:39.838)

Okay.

Kristen Vyas (50:07.438)

and it was an older man and he was super disappointed that his wife had basically no desire. So we're talking and it turns out that she really loves her vibrator and she loves mutual masturbation. She really got a lot from that. It's like, okay, so somebody using their vibrator, like you're feeling, you your arousal is up, you wanna masturbate.

Heather Shannon (50:20.841)

Okay.

Kristen Vyas (50:33.87)

I mean, it's self pleasure, so she's using a toy that is working perfectly for her. And she also likes partnered sex as far as masturbation. So there's a lot that can be done to sort of bridge and figure out maybe he's not touching her in the right way, or maybe she's not really into penetrative sex. Like we didn't even know. He was coming in basically saying, my wife is the problem because she doesn't want to have sex in the way that I want to have sex in the way that I'm viewing what sex is.

Heather Shannon (50:43.987)

Okay.

Kristen Vyas (51:03.79)

And then he calls up and says, well, I'm gonna cancel my next appointment because my wife says that she's willing to keep trying. Didn't wanna bring her in and didn't even wanna get to the good part of like, wait a There's this huge broad world of sexuality and you're not being curious enough about your partner.

Like there's all these ways that she is able to orgasm, that she's able to really tap into her sexuality, but not interested. Because it doesn't look like what I thought it should look like.

Heather Shannon (51:40.813)

And that I think you're bringing up another really important point that like we kind of got to keep open minds. I have found the same thing with clients. Like I had a client couple that I was seeing and one of them was just not very open to like seeing his partner in a different light.

Kristen Vyas (51:48.269)

Yeah.

Heather Shannon (52:01.229)

kind of had this idea of how sex should be. And I think that we're kind of doing ourselves a disservice. Like maybe he'll be able to go and find that with someone else, you know? But maybe not. But yeah, love the first sex therapy book I read was Sexual Intelligence by Marty Klein. And he talks a lot about just like your sex life is going to shift over decades. And we have to adjust with the changes in our life and in our body.

And I thought that was just so wise. So it's kind of like, hold on loosely, you know?

Kristen Vyas (52:33.496)

Yeah.

Yeah, and the curiosity thing is so important to hang on to, because as a relationship matures, we really stop being curious about our partner. They say something to us and we assume the worst. We allow it to trigger us. We assume what they're thinking. We assume their motives when they're saying that we're not curious about what hurts.

Heather Shannon (52:49.12)

Yeah, very true.

Heather Shannon (52:54.984)

Mm-hmm.

Kristen Vyas (53:05.538)

they have anymore. And so not just with, you know, physical sex, but just relating of just, you know, when there's a conflict, I mean, the biggest piece of having a repair conversation is coming in with that empathy and that curiosity, right? And just, okay, instead of assuming that my partner hates my guts and they want the person.

Heather Shannon (53:26.668)

Which for the record is very unlikely. if they literally have to spend their life. Yeah.

Kristen Vyas (53:31.478)

It's very unlikely. Let me come in with, okay, so, you know, it sounds like you're saying this. that true? Is that right? Is that like, am I hearing what you're saying? That like, number one, if that piece could just be done, relationships would be so much better. Of just clarifying before jumping to your deepest core wound has now been destroyed. It's like, hold on, let's find out first. That's the same thing with sex.

Heather Shannon (53:48.076)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Shannon (54:03.192)

Well, I feel like you've dropped a lot of knowledge bombs on us today, and I feel good about it. Thank you for kind of just sharing all your wisdom. And if people are curious to work with you, is there anything else you would like to add? Otherwise, I'm just going to send them to the link.

Kristen Vyas (54:23.474)

Well, I can't say anything else because otherwise people won't come to see me because then I'm

you

Heather Shannon (54:31.126)

She's brilliant and funny. anyways, yes, if you guys are curious about working with Kristin, we will link to a scheduling button in the show notes where you can book a free consultation and just chat a little bit more about your situation, see if it's a good fit, and if you want to move forward with some coaching. But I am very grateful to have you on the team. I think you're wonderful.

Kristen Vyas (54:53.07)

very grateful to be here.

Heather Shannon (54:54.365)

Thank you. And thank you everybody for listening and we will catch you next week on another episode of Ask a Sex Therapist. Bye!