1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:03,303 How awesome is a Christian Brown story? 2 00:00:03,837 --> 00:00:06,573 Did Yeah. I don't know it. So he's the guy. 3 00:00:06,573 --> 00:00:07,507 He was our rookie. 4 00:00:07,507 --> 00:00:11,144 Know he won three high school 5 00:00:12,512 --> 00:00:14,414 state high school championships in a row. 6 00:00:14,414 --> 00:00:15,015 All right. 7 00:00:15,382 --> 00:00:17,884 Went to. Kansas. 8 00:00:17,884 --> 00:00:20,520 Won a national championship. 9 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,455 Last year at Kansas. 10 00:00:22,455 --> 00:00:24,991 Drafted to the Nuggets 11 00:00:24,991 --> 00:00:27,427 and then wins the NBA finals. Yep. 12 00:00:27,427 --> 00:00:29,662 He literally has nothing else to do. Yep. 13 00:00:30,363 --> 00:00:32,465 He's just done with basketball. 14 00:00:32,465 --> 00:00:32,665 Yeah. 15 00:00:32,665 --> 00:00:33,700 He should retire right now. 16 00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:35,035 Yeah, He won. 17 00:00:35,235 --> 00:00:37,303 Now. That's wild. Yep. 18 00:00:37,670 --> 00:00:40,907 And side note at the there's a sports 19 00:00:42,909 --> 00:00:45,812 collectibles store, and he was over there signing. 20 00:00:46,212 --> 00:00:46,946 You serious? 21 00:00:46,946 --> 00:00:47,414 Yeah. 22 00:00:47,414 --> 00:00:50,850 And the line, like, I thought about it for about 5 minutes. 23 00:00:50,850 --> 00:00:53,219 The problem was, is that 24 00:00:53,219 --> 00:00:56,423 I was thinking about, you know, whether I could go get this autograph, 25 00:00:56,623 --> 00:00:59,092 but then I also had to go to Whole Foods to get some groceries. 26 00:00:59,325 --> 00:01:00,360 Forget the question. Then. 27 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,563 I was trying to think about, you know, should I get Chick-Fil-A home? 28 00:01:04,230 --> 00:01:09,135 And right about then, I wasn't sure what to do. 29 00:01:09,169 --> 00:01:10,470 Oh, my. 30 00:01:10,470 --> 00:01:13,473 So all I could do was leave. 31 00:01:14,541 --> 00:01:16,910 And I don't know what kind of cars that 32 00:01:16,910 --> 00:01:20,613 but I just I had all these decisions and thoughts going on in my head. 33 00:01:20,847 --> 00:01:23,817 You guys, I mean, Brett, do you know what would make somebody 34 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:27,220 think about too many different things and kind of almost freeze up, you know? 35 00:01:27,220 --> 00:01:29,589 Yeah, I do it at my house. 36 00:01:29,589 --> 00:01:32,292 My wife and I both. 37 00:01:32,292 --> 00:01:35,395 If somebody asks what's for dinner, we about lose our minds. 38 00:01:35,428 --> 00:01:36,096 Mm hmm. 39 00:01:36,496 --> 00:01:41,401 Because at the end of the day, we have something called decision fatigue. 40 00:01:41,935 --> 00:01:44,137 Oh, don't. Don't. 41 00:01:44,137 --> 00:01:46,806 Interesting. Yes, And I. 42 00:01:46,806 --> 00:01:47,674 This is funny. 43 00:01:47,674 --> 00:01:50,376 I know we have talked about it quite a bit. 44 00:01:50,376 --> 00:01:52,779 I actually thought we. 45 00:01:52,779 --> 00:01:56,516 Not necessarily turn the phrase or made that up ourselves, 46 00:01:56,516 --> 00:01:59,452 but it sounded so specific that it really wasn't a thing to me. 47 00:01:59,919 --> 00:02:04,224 And so when I started actually doing research on it and I was like, holy, 48 00:02:04,224 --> 00:02:08,061 that is actual thing, and I would group it in the burnout category. 49 00:02:08,061 --> 00:02:09,062 It's a little different. 50 00:02:09,062 --> 00:02:12,132 At the same time, yeah, it is similar, but it is different. 51 00:02:12,866 --> 00:02:13,099 Yeah. 52 00:02:13,099 --> 00:02:16,202 What is your what is your take, Taylor and what it is. 53 00:02:16,236 --> 00:02:20,507 Well, I'd like to start my spiel with a fun fact. 54 00:02:20,507 --> 00:02:20,807 Brett. 55 00:02:20,807 --> 00:02:24,944 Sometimes you ask for if anyone has any fun statistics to start the show off with. 56 00:02:24,944 --> 00:02:31,084 And my my research and internet rabbit holes took me down 57 00:02:32,385 --> 00:02:35,321 to what was the American Medical Association, actually. 58 00:02:35,321 --> 00:02:39,392 And it's like, well, it was like a whole bunch of stuff here on decision fatigue. 59 00:02:39,392 --> 00:02:42,328 It's like an actual not like a chronic medical condition, 60 00:02:42,328 --> 00:02:43,730 but it's just like, Hey, yeah, this is the thing. 61 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:48,301 And in there I learned that the average American makes over 62 00:02:48,801 --> 00:02:52,205 35,000 decisions a day and more. 63 00:02:52,238 --> 00:02:54,374 Many of them aren't conscious. 64 00:02:54,374 --> 00:02:59,279 You know, by the time you've gone to bed, your brain has processed a choice, 65 00:02:59,512 --> 00:03:02,882 some choices, some type by like 35,000 times a day. 66 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:05,752 That's just insane. That sounds like a stat. 67 00:03:05,752 --> 00:03:08,288 The resumes find 540 years old. 68 00:03:09,789 --> 00:03:10,323 It's very simple. 69 00:03:10,323 --> 00:03:11,791 It's just really hard to believe. 70 00:03:11,791 --> 00:03:13,693 It's really hard to believe. Yeah. 71 00:03:13,693 --> 00:03:17,263 I try to like I left a little amount around for some of the stuff 72 00:03:17,263 --> 00:03:20,433 and like the other one I found was like, you make over 73 00:03:20,700 --> 00:03:23,403 some somewhere between two and 300 food decisions a day. 74 00:03:23,436 --> 00:03:25,471 And you think about that you're, you're maybe in, 75 00:03:25,505 --> 00:03:29,342 you know, maybe two or three meals a day with some snacks in between, you know, or 76 00:03:29,342 --> 00:03:30,043 you know, whatnot. 77 00:03:30,043 --> 00:03:32,178 And you're like, within the scheme of that, 78 00:03:32,478 --> 00:03:36,015 you've got like 2 to 300 little blip attributes that are happening 79 00:03:36,182 --> 00:03:38,284 all through that, which is. I believe that. 80 00:03:38,351 --> 00:03:42,989 I believe that I look at it as about, I don't know, 10 a.m. ish. 81 00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:46,826 I think every minute thereafter I'm probably saying, no, it's 82 00:03:46,826 --> 00:03:47,961 not time for a beer yet 83 00:03:50,496 --> 00:03:51,464 for the rest of it. 84 00:03:51,464 --> 00:03:52,432 Yeah, right. 85 00:03:52,432 --> 00:03:54,300 That those add up. 86 00:03:55,201 --> 00:03:55,568 Yeah. 87 00:03:55,568 --> 00:03:58,771 So I mean that really makes me want to sit down 88 00:03:58,771 --> 00:04:03,676 and try not to make a decision just to see if that is painful in some way. 89 00:04:03,676 --> 00:04:04,410 Right. Yeah. 90 00:04:04,410 --> 00:04:06,813 Like your short circuiting your brain all of a sudden. Yeah. 91 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:08,915 You think about what happened to me this morning. 92 00:04:08,915 --> 00:04:10,083 I had a breakfast burrito, 93 00:04:10,083 --> 00:04:14,254 and there was a packet of delicious Tallulah next to said breakfast burrito. 94 00:04:14,254 --> 00:04:16,923 And I picked it up and I tried to open it and I try to open it. 95 00:04:16,923 --> 00:04:20,493 And I thought to myself, Hmm, I think my hands are too slippery 96 00:04:20,793 --> 00:04:22,929 from eating donuts. 97 00:04:22,929 --> 00:04:26,032 So then I wiped off my hands and I tried to open it. 98 00:04:26,432 --> 00:04:30,069 And then I thought, maybe this is a side open packet of Kulula. 99 00:04:30,069 --> 00:04:32,405 And I tried to open it and I try to open it 100 00:04:32,705 --> 00:04:36,009 and then I put it down and I started eating my burrito without kulula. 101 00:04:36,276 --> 00:04:38,111 And then I thought, but I wanted to Lula 102 00:04:38,111 --> 00:04:40,647 so I had to go find scissors and cut the packet open. 103 00:04:41,114 --> 00:04:42,548 And then I decided, What do I do? 104 00:04:42,548 --> 00:04:46,052 Do I just lay this packet down on my plate and am I going to just hold it? 105 00:04:46,185 --> 00:04:47,620 Because then I got too big of a thing 106 00:04:47,620 --> 00:04:49,922 and I just covered my whole burrito and Tallulah, I. 107 00:04:49,922 --> 00:04:51,858 Was I was curious about your technique. 108 00:04:51,858 --> 00:04:54,160 When I saw. That I cut too big of a hole. 109 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,828 So I was like, I don't know what to do with this packet. 110 00:04:55,828 --> 00:04:57,764 If I set it down, the chute is going to spill out. 111 00:04:57,764 --> 00:05:01,768 So in that little space, I probably made 35 decisions. 112 00:05:01,801 --> 00:05:04,170 Yeah, that's quite the journey you took us on. 113 00:05:04,937 --> 00:05:09,375 We will watch that happen and maybe it's even way more complex. 114 00:05:09,375 --> 00:05:12,578 And I know it was complex, but yeah, yeah, that's. 115 00:05:12,578 --> 00:05:16,516 A that's a, that's 20 seconds in the, in the brain. 116 00:05:16,516 --> 00:05:17,350 A bend right there. 117 00:05:17,350 --> 00:05:18,551 That's how that goes down. 118 00:05:18,551 --> 00:05:20,987 That's funny. Break it down to micro decisions. 119 00:05:21,287 --> 00:05:23,790 It's not opening bean. Try again. 120 00:05:23,823 --> 00:05:25,892 Yeah, Still not opening. Bean 121 00:05:26,893 --> 00:05:28,328 Trying to get. 122 00:05:29,195 --> 00:05:30,163 It's not opening. 123 00:05:30,163 --> 00:05:32,565 Ben Bean Wipe off your hands. 124 00:05:32,598 --> 00:05:33,766 That's how that went. 125 00:05:33,766 --> 00:05:36,202 So I probably make 100,000 decisions. 126 00:05:36,202 --> 00:05:38,905 Today. Anyway. Sorry. Go ahead. 127 00:05:39,372 --> 00:05:40,139 I would. 128 00:05:40,139 --> 00:05:44,243 I wonder if the complexity of decision is plays into this at all 129 00:05:44,744 --> 00:05:48,448 or it's just a sheer amount of numbers that add up. 130 00:05:48,548 --> 00:05:52,685 Let's roll back to just a bit and what would like to find decision fatigue? 131 00:05:53,252 --> 00:05:55,088 Did anybody find like a definition? 132 00:05:55,088 --> 00:05:58,825 Yeah, I'll jump into that too, because it was also American Medical Association. 133 00:05:58,825 --> 00:06:02,628 So the definition, according to Dr. 134 00:06:02,628 --> 00:06:06,699 McLean, that AMA, which is a psychiatrist, I think it's a she. 135 00:06:07,934 --> 00:06:11,037 The idea that after making many decisions, your ability 136 00:06:11,037 --> 00:06:15,141 to make more and more decisions over the course of the day becomes worse. 137 00:06:15,575 --> 00:06:18,177 The more decisions you have to make, the more fatigue 138 00:06:18,177 --> 00:06:20,913 you develop and the more difficult it can become. 139 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:24,450 When we talk about the ability to make the decision, 140 00:06:24,684 --> 00:06:28,254 does that mean sometimes it's not a binary thing, right? 141 00:06:28,321 --> 00:06:29,555 I made a decision. 142 00:06:29,555 --> 00:06:32,992 Sometimes there's some outcome that can be based on the 143 00:06:32,992 --> 00:06:36,262 the billions of options you have for the decision. 144 00:06:36,295 --> 00:06:36,729 Yeah. 145 00:06:36,729 --> 00:06:38,064 So one 146 00:06:38,064 --> 00:06:41,968 other thing that I kind of looked into, and this is from a different article, 147 00:06:42,001 --> 00:06:46,472 Will HPR, I like me my Harvard Business Review and I can get get some 148 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,776 article called How to Stop Overthinking. 149 00:06:49,776 --> 00:06:52,145 And they they paint this picture of 150 00:06:52,412 --> 00:06:55,615 when when you come to the decisions, whether it's binary or otherwise. 151 00:06:55,782 --> 00:06:59,719 One of the things that I think we run into is and we don't think about it 152 00:06:59,719 --> 00:07:01,821 this way, but it's perfectionism 153 00:07:01,821 --> 00:07:03,623 because we all know you hear the term perfectionism. 154 00:07:03,623 --> 00:07:04,657 You're like, Yeah, perfect. 155 00:07:04,657 --> 00:07:06,125 Perfect isn't a real concept. 156 00:07:06,125 --> 00:07:07,860 It's not something we should strive for. 157 00:07:07,860 --> 00:07:11,564 I'm not trying to be perfect, but what, what what they're getting at is 158 00:07:11,798 --> 00:07:16,602 your perfectionism is the same thing as trying to make the right decision. 159 00:07:17,003 --> 00:07:20,072 This idea that there is a right decision 160 00:07:20,573 --> 00:07:22,809 and therefore all other decisions are wrong. 161 00:07:23,543 --> 00:07:26,512 Here's what really weighs on your brain. 162 00:07:26,512 --> 00:07:29,449 And when you're trying to make a decision, it's like you've got this. 163 00:07:29,449 --> 00:07:30,716 You kind of approach it with this 164 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:33,519 all or nothing mentality almost by default sometimes. 165 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,956 And that's where that fatigue element comes in, is because you're 166 00:07:36,989 --> 00:07:39,225 you feel like you've got to make the right call 167 00:07:39,225 --> 00:07:41,160 so that there's lots of right calls. 168 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,497 Paralysis by analysis of one or the other. 169 00:07:44,497 --> 00:07:48,201 Fun one that's don't don't let perfect be the enemy have done. 170 00:07:48,201 --> 00:07:50,136 Yeah yeah, exactly. 171 00:07:50,136 --> 00:07:53,172 So which you know that that hit me I'm just like 172 00:07:53,172 --> 00:07:56,108 yeah I'm not trying to be perfectionist, but yeah, I try to make great decisions, 173 00:07:56,342 --> 00:07:57,276 but you're like, Oh, shit. 174 00:07:57,276 --> 00:07:59,846 Oh, wait, If it isn't, if this is a right decision, 175 00:07:59,879 --> 00:08:01,914 then that means all other decisions are wrong. 176 00:08:01,914 --> 00:08:04,450 That's had my brain, you know, going all morning. 177 00:08:04,450 --> 00:08:07,286 And I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to decide what shirt to put in. 178 00:08:07,286 --> 00:08:10,189 I'm like, There's no right decision. Just pick a shirt, tailor. Like 179 00:08:11,257 --> 00:08:12,425 taking that example, I 180 00:08:12,425 --> 00:08:16,062 was thinking about shopping actually similar, but the weather matters. 181 00:08:16,195 --> 00:08:20,766 It does matter which shirt you pick, you grab like a turtleneck on a summer day. 182 00:08:20,766 --> 00:08:23,369 You're not going to be a happy camper. That's true. That's true. 183 00:08:23,402 --> 00:08:27,807 So that's a complexity thing of like, what information do I know? 184 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:29,976 How does that play into the decision? 185 00:08:29,976 --> 00:08:34,080 And obviously, like the the consequences of the decision matter, 186 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,215 Like what are the what's the worst outcome, 187 00:08:36,215 --> 00:08:38,751 which is probably where we spend a lot of our time. 188 00:08:38,751 --> 00:08:42,655 The fear and uncertainty you're trying to avoid the worst case 189 00:08:42,655 --> 00:08:45,758 scenario versus making sure something just good to. 190 00:08:45,758 --> 00:08:47,727 Happen is another thing, just more attack. 191 00:08:47,727 --> 00:08:50,796 And worst case scenario that also came out of HPR paper. 192 00:08:50,796 --> 00:08:53,165 It's called the ten, ten, ten exercise. 193 00:08:53,633 --> 00:08:54,267 And so you're supposed 194 00:08:54,267 --> 00:08:58,104 to picture the worst case scenario and then think about it going wrong 195 00:08:58,137 --> 00:09:01,374 that your decision and it goes just as terrible as you can imagine. 196 00:09:01,641 --> 00:09:03,876 Think about how you feel in ten weeks 197 00:09:04,410 --> 00:09:06,445 and ten months and then ten years. 198 00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:10,583 And that based on how you feel like with each of those, can kind of help 199 00:09:10,583 --> 00:09:13,286 you calibrate how much energy and effort should I make this decision? 200 00:09:13,286 --> 00:09:15,655 Ten weeks, ten months and years? 201 00:09:15,922 --> 00:09:16,923 Yep, exactly. 202 00:09:16,923 --> 00:09:22,161 So, Ben, you told us earlier you had made a decision to build a birdbath. Yes. 203 00:09:22,395 --> 00:09:25,865 How does that make you feel in ten weeks, uncertainty wise? 204 00:09:25,865 --> 00:09:27,166 Uncertainty wise? 205 00:09:27,166 --> 00:09:29,001 Is this the exercise step? Yeah. 206 00:09:29,001 --> 00:09:30,636 The fears and uncertainty in ten weeks. 207 00:09:30,636 --> 00:09:32,204 Well, I had this. 208 00:09:32,204 --> 00:09:34,874 You make a birdbath and then it falls apart. 209 00:09:34,874 --> 00:09:36,609 Falls apart, say, in a week. 210 00:09:36,609 --> 00:09:38,878 So that's the worst case scenario. As worst case and worst case. 211 00:09:38,878 --> 00:09:40,713 Scenario. Build a birdbath and it falls apart. 212 00:09:40,713 --> 00:09:42,782 Over the birdbath. 213 00:09:42,782 --> 00:09:44,717 Well, I don't know. There's also the scenario. 214 00:09:44,717 --> 00:09:48,554 What if the birds see it as like a tiny gladiator place 215 00:09:48,554 --> 00:09:50,256 and start killing each other? That's true. 216 00:09:50,256 --> 00:09:55,294 Now you have a bird graveyard, just carcasses around your your baths. 217 00:09:55,294 --> 00:09:57,830 Two birds with one stone birdbath. 218 00:09:59,332 --> 00:10:01,133 The worst case scenario is 219 00:10:01,133 --> 00:10:05,071 I would be sad that my bird bath was a failure. 220 00:10:05,071 --> 00:10:07,173 In ten weeks. And ten weeks. 221 00:10:07,173 --> 00:10:09,241 I would throw it away. Okay. 222 00:10:09,542 --> 00:10:11,243 And then how do you feel in ten months? 223 00:10:11,243 --> 00:10:15,314 Would you be upset in ten weeks about any monetary loss? 224 00:10:15,381 --> 00:10:20,753 Now? I guess maybe that it was I guess the sadness would be that I failed. 225 00:10:20,820 --> 00:10:21,420 You know. 226 00:10:21,654 --> 00:10:23,623 You wouldn't be sad that you tried, though. 227 00:10:23,623 --> 00:10:24,857 You wouldn't be sad trying. 228 00:10:24,857 --> 00:10:25,958 It is a waste of time. 229 00:10:25,958 --> 00:10:29,996 No. In ten weeks would you pick up the project again and do it over? No. 230 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:32,131 Okay. All right. Ten months. 231 00:10:32,131 --> 00:10:32,865 Ten months. 232 00:10:32,865 --> 00:10:37,103 I might just start having some regret that my bird bath that I made the year 233 00:10:37,103 --> 00:10:41,774 before wasn't operational for this upcoming year. 234 00:10:41,774 --> 00:10:43,776 Do you think you would want to try again at that point? 235 00:10:44,043 --> 00:10:46,479 Would you be like, Oh, maybe this would be different? 236 00:10:46,746 --> 00:10:47,446 That time? 237 00:10:47,446 --> 00:10:50,650 I, I might want I would think I would try again. 238 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:53,486 The failure would come rushing back into. 239 00:10:53,552 --> 00:10:55,855 Next summer and I might be a little scared. 240 00:10:55,888 --> 00:10:58,057 I guess I'm going to put a cage over at Thunder. 241 00:10:58,057 --> 00:11:00,493 It'll be a Thunderdome style like. 242 00:11:00,493 --> 00:11:01,060 Yeah. 243 00:11:01,627 --> 00:11:04,196 Two birds into. The. 244 00:11:06,966 --> 00:11:08,401 In ten years you like. 245 00:11:08,401 --> 00:11:10,236 And in ten years I need a bird bath. 246 00:11:10,236 --> 00:11:11,037 Yeah. 247 00:11:12,238 --> 00:11:13,506 That doesn't sound like me. 248 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:16,208 Yeah, that's crazy. 249 00:11:16,208 --> 00:11:20,780 Or you're like, Son, I bestow upon you. 250 00:11:21,213 --> 00:11:22,415 This bird bath. 251 00:11:22,415 --> 00:11:24,917 In in my father's birdhouse. Yeah. 252 00:11:26,052 --> 00:11:27,953 Go forth and take care of the birds. 253 00:11:27,953 --> 00:11:28,721 Yeah. 254 00:11:29,021 --> 00:11:31,090 Go forth and populate birds. 255 00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:33,759 And that's an interesting exercise. It is. 256 00:11:34,293 --> 00:11:36,662 I think I think you'd have to shorten it for most. 257 00:11:36,862 --> 00:11:38,998 I mean, when you buy. Ten days. 258 00:11:39,031 --> 00:11:40,533 I tend to 10 hours. 259 00:11:40,533 --> 00:11:42,835 Minutes to hours I like. Yeah. 260 00:11:42,868 --> 00:11:45,538 Kind of just shifting it days, months are days, weeks, months 261 00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:47,907 because like ten years, it's like who thinks about anything 262 00:11:47,907 --> 00:11:49,475 in the scheme of ten years now? 263 00:11:49,475 --> 00:11:51,077 Maybe it's like big business decision. 264 00:11:51,077 --> 00:11:51,544 Yeah, I. 265 00:11:51,544 --> 00:11:53,179 Like, like moving or, 266 00:11:53,179 --> 00:11:56,982 you know, Yeah, Hey, I'm going to move move to Ireland or something, But we. 267 00:11:56,982 --> 00:11:58,918 Got like a merger and acquisition, right? 268 00:11:58,918 --> 00:12:01,353 Like ten years. How that, how might this be? 269 00:12:01,353 --> 00:12:03,856 But yeah, building the bird that probably can. 270 00:12:04,390 --> 00:12:05,558 Yeah. Going to matter. 271 00:12:05,558 --> 00:12:10,296 If I were to require the people at my company to come back 272 00:12:11,330 --> 00:12:12,932 in person full time. 273 00:12:12,932 --> 00:12:14,300 That's a good, that's a good one. 274 00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:16,168 I can see how that applies like that. 275 00:12:16,168 --> 00:12:20,005 The long term ramifications and working through not to be 276 00:12:20,005 --> 00:12:22,408 the dead horse about complexity, but that feels like that, 277 00:12:22,608 --> 00:12:25,344 you know, the more complex the decision, the longer lasting 278 00:12:25,344 --> 00:12:28,514 the consequences will be maybe are not even necessarily right. 279 00:12:28,514 --> 00:12:30,249 If I decided to murder somebody. 280 00:12:30,249 --> 00:12:30,916 Oh my. 281 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:32,551 So it's taking a dark turn. 282 00:12:32,551 --> 00:12:34,620 Glider bird. Go. I'm just murder. 283 00:12:34,887 --> 00:12:38,958 I'm just going into a crazy scenario where it's like it's a quick decision. 284 00:12:38,958 --> 00:12:39,892 Simple. 285 00:12:39,892 --> 00:12:40,993 Yeah. Murder. 286 00:12:40,993 --> 00:12:43,229 So don't. Murder somebody. Credit binary. 287 00:12:44,063 --> 00:12:47,767 And so the time frame really doesn't matter. 288 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:52,171 Ten days, you're like, I might feel bad about myself as a human being. 289 00:12:52,204 --> 00:12:52,972 Ten weeks. 290 00:12:52,972 --> 00:12:54,974 Yeah, I feel bad about myself. 291 00:12:54,974 --> 00:12:56,942 And I'm in jail ten years. 292 00:12:56,942 --> 00:12:58,778 I feel really bad. Yeah. 293 00:12:58,778 --> 00:13:00,713 Now, you've been in jail for all this time, and. 294 00:13:00,713 --> 00:13:03,315 I would be rehabilitated even. Yeah. 295 00:13:03,315 --> 00:13:05,284 And you still feel bad. And I'd still be a must. 296 00:13:05,284 --> 00:13:08,020 Still be in jail. And murder. 297 00:13:08,020 --> 00:13:10,656 Wow. You know what I was reading when I was thinking about this 298 00:13:10,656 --> 00:13:14,627 and reading about it, to your point, is, you know, some of these bigger decisions 299 00:13:14,627 --> 00:13:18,597 and and I think some of the the biggest issue I found with decision 300 00:13:18,597 --> 00:13:22,067 fatigue is that you're not necessarily aware that it's happening. 301 00:13:22,134 --> 00:13:22,468 Right. 302 00:13:22,468 --> 00:13:27,506 And then you might have decision fatigue 303 00:13:27,573 --> 00:13:32,311 and make a hasty not thought through decision. 304 00:13:32,311 --> 00:13:32,611 Yeah. 305 00:13:32,611 --> 00:13:36,982 So when you start talking about mergers and acquisitions 306 00:13:36,982 --> 00:13:40,920 and return to work or even or hiring somebody, right. 307 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:45,858 Like using potentially outdated mode of, you know, looking over resumes 308 00:13:45,858 --> 00:13:48,694 and how do we determine who the best person is 309 00:13:49,061 --> 00:13:52,498 when all of a sudden you are sitting there at 4 p.m. 310 00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:56,735 on Thursday and you said, all right, I'm going to make a decision and give somebody 311 00:13:56,735 --> 00:13:58,237 an offer letter on Friday. 312 00:13:58,237 --> 00:14:01,907 If you're suffering decision fatigue, you actually might not be 313 00:14:02,074 --> 00:14:04,710 in the right mind space or fully capable. 314 00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:08,180 Sound mind. Of of making the best choice. 315 00:14:08,214 --> 00:14:11,717 Yeah, but you've set this deadline up 316 00:14:11,717 --> 00:14:15,554 and you've pushed this to the limit where now you're making a choice. 317 00:14:15,588 --> 00:14:15,855 Yeah. 318 00:14:15,855 --> 00:14:18,657 And a lot of the stuff we talked about where, you know, Brett, 319 00:14:18,657 --> 00:14:21,026 you gave a funny example, you know, with you and your wife 320 00:14:21,026 --> 00:14:23,162 about, you know, dinner and can't make a decision. 321 00:14:23,162 --> 00:14:27,466 But now put that to something real by hiring or firing or, you know, whatever. 322 00:14:27,466 --> 00:14:29,468 When I was researching this and thinking about it, 323 00:14:29,468 --> 00:14:31,871 that that's what I came to is I'm like, holy cow, 324 00:14:31,871 --> 00:14:35,274 this plays a big role in all of our lives and we don't talk about it. 325 00:14:35,374 --> 00:14:38,277 You just hit a vein with me that I didn't even consider 326 00:14:38,377 --> 00:14:41,180 until this moment, thinking through decisions 327 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:44,683 that my leaders have made in my career that have affected me, 328 00:14:44,683 --> 00:14:48,087 whereas let's just say decision fatigue played a part in it. 329 00:14:48,087 --> 00:14:49,355 They made a poor decision. 330 00:14:49,355 --> 00:14:53,759 They upped make another decision to save face rather than to correct 331 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:54,894 the decision and start. 332 00:14:54,894 --> 00:14:58,030 You know, they're throwing good money after bad, however you want to phrase it. 333 00:14:58,030 --> 00:15:00,599 But that to me, that's a very powerful. 334 00:15:00,599 --> 00:15:01,667 Thought that's got my gears. 335 00:15:01,667 --> 00:15:06,639 Turning to also from American Medical was the opinion this picture of 336 00:15:06,805 --> 00:15:10,743 it was actually a strategy there they kind of suggested to help fight it. 337 00:15:10,743 --> 00:15:12,811 Think about the timing of your decisions. 338 00:15:12,811 --> 00:15:16,081 And they said you want to save your big decision making for the morning. 339 00:15:16,081 --> 00:15:19,952 You're fresher, you've got a limited bucket of willpower 340 00:15:19,952 --> 00:15:22,354 or decision making ability, Right? You want to do it 341 00:15:22,354 --> 00:15:23,589 when it's maxed out, right? 342 00:15:23,589 --> 00:15:25,491 Well, willpower is definitely finite. 343 00:15:25,491 --> 00:15:26,392 Yeah, exactly. 344 00:15:26,392 --> 00:15:29,428 So like morning is for big decision making. 345 00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:32,598 The afternoon is kind of like a plateau zone 346 00:15:32,598 --> 00:15:35,401 where your decisions are maybe a little bit more intuitive. 347 00:15:35,401 --> 00:15:39,505 Yeah, you are putting some analysis into it, but your bucket's depleted, 348 00:15:39,505 --> 00:15:42,574 and then by the evening, your impulse mode, right? 349 00:15:42,574 --> 00:15:43,642 Like it's just your impulses 350 00:15:43,642 --> 00:15:46,912 kind of make all your decisions and, and you're kind of driving you. 351 00:15:46,912 --> 00:15:51,383 And so it makes me think about that in the context of reviewing resumes. 352 00:15:51,583 --> 00:15:53,619 Then you threw that example out. 353 00:15:53,953 --> 00:15:57,556 I wonder when hiring managers are looking at these things and reading these things 354 00:15:57,556 --> 00:16:01,593 and is that having an impact on whether they're pushing a candidate forward or not 355 00:16:01,593 --> 00:16:04,730 or how many candidates they think they're going to go after, 356 00:16:04,797 --> 00:16:05,898 you know, kind of look into. 357 00:16:05,898 --> 00:16:10,002 And the timing of decisions is is another thing to factor in to 358 00:16:10,402 --> 00:16:12,404 how taxing it can be, not just the quantity, 359 00:16:12,404 --> 00:16:15,674 but like a decision in the same decision the morning and the evening, probably 360 00:16:15,674 --> 00:16:17,810 you might have different different outcomes. 361 00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:19,144 Through the hiring lens, too. 362 00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:20,879 I can think of plenty of times 363 00:16:20,879 --> 00:16:25,250 where I've had back to back to back interviews 3 hours straight of interviews. 364 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:30,255 That candidate at the end is not getting a fair shake or 365 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:34,259 I shouldn't say that they're not getting the best of me that the first person was. 366 00:16:34,259 --> 00:16:36,261 As far as questions go. Yeah. 367 00:16:36,261 --> 00:16:38,530 And I can almost guarantee you 368 00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:41,166 there's hard questions that you have to ask in interviews 369 00:16:41,567 --> 00:16:44,837 that I might avoid towards the end versus ask them, 370 00:16:44,837 --> 00:16:48,607 which could lead to disastrous consequences as far as hiring goes. 371 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,876 You know, it's funny, The flipside of that is 372 00:16:50,876 --> 00:16:53,012 I've been a candidate who's been doing a lot of interviewing 373 00:16:53,012 --> 00:16:56,482 with interviews like several in a day are kind of back to back. 374 00:16:56,782 --> 00:16:58,717 I always find my best interviews at the end. 375 00:16:58,717 --> 00:16:59,385 Really? Yeah. 376 00:16:59,385 --> 00:17:03,722 And I think it's because, like, impulse, it's impulse is just like muscle memory. 377 00:17:03,722 --> 00:17:04,757 I'm not going to yeah, 378 00:17:04,757 --> 00:17:07,693 I'm not going to pick of the many stories or instances you want me to answer. 379 00:17:07,693 --> 00:17:09,561 I'm just going to like whatever my guts. 380 00:17:09,561 --> 00:17:11,430 And those are the like, the ones that flow the best. 381 00:17:11,430 --> 00:17:13,732 I just. Yeah, I just find that funny. Yeah. 382 00:17:13,732 --> 00:17:16,168 You're unguarded. Yeah, I think that's true. 383 00:17:16,201 --> 00:17:17,403 Yeah, you're unguarded. 384 00:17:17,403 --> 00:17:19,772 You're. You're authentic self at the end of the. 385 00:17:20,005 --> 00:17:22,741 Yeah. You can't really help but be so. 386 00:17:22,908 --> 00:17:24,943 Yeah, like. I can't stop it from happening. 387 00:17:26,078 --> 00:17:26,879 Hey. Hey. 388 00:17:26,879 --> 00:17:30,849 INTERVIEWER This just by the way, I made a state of decision fatigue. 389 00:17:30,849 --> 00:17:33,652 So you're going to get the most authentic me you've ever seen. 390 00:17:33,652 --> 00:17:35,988 That's right. That's pretty cool. Buckle up. 391 00:17:36,855 --> 00:17:38,190 You know, it's funny you say that. 392 00:17:38,190 --> 00:17:39,758 I would say it. 393 00:17:39,758 --> 00:17:41,060 You know, at the end of, 394 00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:44,730 you know, back to back interviews on the interviewers side, I probably lean 395 00:17:44,730 --> 00:17:48,700 into the social conversational side and probably learned more personally 396 00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:50,903 about a person than I would at the beginning as well. 397 00:17:50,903 --> 00:17:55,841 So many of these things that we deal with on a on every personal, professional 398 00:17:55,841 --> 00:17:58,744 and individual personal relationship, you know, 399 00:17:58,777 --> 00:18:03,682 I mean, all these it's really tough to give every decision 400 00:18:03,715 --> 00:18:07,719 the proper amount of of thought and care 401 00:18:07,719 --> 00:18:11,790 and knowing that a good chunk of them are coming out 402 00:18:11,790 --> 00:18:17,129 just from impulse And quite frankly, and, you know, using the interviewer thing, 403 00:18:17,262 --> 00:18:20,399 your example there, I mean, after 3 hours of interviewing, you are 404 00:18:20,399 --> 00:18:24,503 maybe, okay, I don't want to ask business decisions anymore, right? 405 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:27,072 I want to talk in a different manner. 406 00:18:27,072 --> 00:18:29,608 So it was just automatically changes it up. Yeah. 407 00:18:29,641 --> 00:18:31,643 And it doesn't mean it's wrong. 408 00:18:31,677 --> 00:18:33,212 It's just different. Different. 409 00:18:33,212 --> 00:18:35,280 You know, this is such a great conversation. 410 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,117 I'm like thinking of all the podcasts we've done so far 411 00:18:38,450 --> 00:18:41,186 through this lens of like, just this decision fatigue. 412 00:18:41,186 --> 00:18:42,855 Yeah, the four day workweek. 413 00:18:42,855 --> 00:18:46,625 Why is that productive while you're taking a whole day of decisions off 414 00:18:46,625 --> 00:18:47,359 somebody's plate? 415 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,195 35,000, 30. 5000 just gone. 416 00:18:50,195 --> 00:18:53,799 So does that make the other ones inherently better or the ability 417 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:54,867 to make those better 418 00:18:54,867 --> 00:18:59,204 because you're not trying to cram them in in a short amount of time and keep going? 419 00:18:59,204 --> 00:19:02,641 You know, obviously burnouts, an easy one, the VUCA, 420 00:19:03,075 --> 00:19:07,646 VUCA, VUCA, indecision, fatigue, you think of change and uncertainty, 421 00:19:07,679 --> 00:19:11,850 the amount of decisions we've talked about how information flows 422 00:19:11,850 --> 00:19:15,621 faster than ever before at us requires just constant decision 423 00:19:15,621 --> 00:19:17,890 making based on the information flow. 424 00:19:17,956 --> 00:19:19,057 Yeah, thorough pandemic. 425 00:19:19,057 --> 00:19:22,027 On the top of that, there's no question that decision fatigue, 426 00:19:22,027 --> 00:19:25,564 you have to start making decisions about how to move around the world now. 427 00:19:25,597 --> 00:19:26,698 Yeah, where can I go? 428 00:19:26,698 --> 00:19:28,267 Where can I go? What's open? 429 00:19:28,267 --> 00:19:29,234 Do I wear a mask? 430 00:19:29,234 --> 00:19:31,670 Would not wear a mask. Get a vaccine? Who am I with? 431 00:19:32,104 --> 00:19:33,071 Are they safe? 432 00:19:33,071 --> 00:19:35,507 What happens if things go wrong? Or am I going to see my mom? 433 00:19:35,507 --> 00:19:39,211 This week is going to have to like not see anybody else boiling 434 00:19:39,211 --> 00:19:43,949 all these issues during the pandemic down to simple stuff like remote work. 435 00:19:44,049 --> 00:19:46,585 Call people back to the office or productivity. 436 00:19:46,585 --> 00:19:50,355 It it just erases so much hardship that we're dealing with now. 437 00:19:50,355 --> 00:19:53,592 It's just from a disappear decision standpoint. 438 00:19:53,592 --> 00:19:55,527 It's blown my mind. RADIO Yeah. 439 00:19:55,527 --> 00:19:59,131 Now there's there's so much that, especially when things are different. 440 00:19:59,331 --> 00:20:00,065 I think the VUCA 441 00:20:00,065 --> 00:20:04,136 example is really on point, right, where you get used to a level, right? 442 00:20:04,169 --> 00:20:07,339 We all have a level of like what we can manage and what we can do, 443 00:20:07,472 --> 00:20:09,641 and then you're forced to tackle something 444 00:20:09,641 --> 00:20:13,111 that's just super huge and on top of what you have to do on a normal day. 445 00:20:13,111 --> 00:20:16,615 And I think for me, what's jumping out too is I'm currently 446 00:20:16,615 --> 00:20:21,587 in a state of being unemployed and I have a lot of time on my hands. 447 00:20:21,587 --> 00:20:23,222 And so, you know, it's kind of funny. 448 00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:25,624 I have conversation with people and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, 449 00:20:25,624 --> 00:20:29,261 like in the time off is it grade and what are you doing with your time? 450 00:20:29,261 --> 00:20:32,731 And I have different responses, you know, based on how I'm feeling. 451 00:20:32,731 --> 00:20:36,268 But like a lot of the time, I'm like, I'm actually going insane because I do. 452 00:20:36,268 --> 00:20:38,070 I work out right now too. 453 00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:42,808 I go to the grocery store, do I, you know, work on the podcast? 454 00:20:42,808 --> 00:20:45,143 Do I walk my dogs? 455 00:20:45,143 --> 00:20:48,680 You know, should I do some lot Like, it's like all these it's 456 00:20:48,714 --> 00:20:49,748 literally decision fatigue. 457 00:20:49,748 --> 00:20:53,018 It hit me until like just recently, but I'm like, wow, shit. 458 00:20:53,018 --> 00:20:55,854 Like one of the things that's like actually really draining 459 00:20:55,854 --> 00:20:59,024 in this moment in my life where I have a lot of time 460 00:20:59,057 --> 00:21:02,761 is just the fact that I have so many things that I could be working on. 461 00:21:02,761 --> 00:21:04,563 And it's as far as fucking exhausting. 462 00:21:04,563 --> 00:21:06,632 Just the high level of ambiguity about. 463 00:21:06,632 --> 00:21:08,934 Time, all the time. 464 00:21:08,934 --> 00:21:10,869 And that's an interesting way to put it. 465 00:21:10,869 --> 00:21:11,637 Like work. 466 00:21:11,637 --> 00:21:12,504 What does work do? 467 00:21:12,504 --> 00:21:15,374 It might put a guardrail around the decisions 468 00:21:15,374 --> 00:21:17,943 you have to make so you know you're swimming in a lane. 469 00:21:17,943 --> 00:21:19,111 Yeah. Yeah. 470 00:21:19,111 --> 00:21:20,846 Well, I mean, one of the other strategies 471 00:21:20,846 --> 00:21:24,816 that came up as I was doing research was and it was consistent, but it's habit, 472 00:21:24,816 --> 00:21:29,821 habit forming like routines, you know, and all routines and habits are doing 473 00:21:30,122 --> 00:21:35,260 is instilling practices in your body, in your brain that remove decisions. 474 00:21:35,394 --> 00:21:37,229 That's all it is. It's a habit. 475 00:21:37,229 --> 00:21:40,899 You're going to do it, you've done it and it's automatic and you are literally 476 00:21:40,899 --> 00:21:44,002 taking the tax off of your brain, of having to make a decision 477 00:21:44,002 --> 00:21:45,537 on whether you will or won't do it. 478 00:21:45,537 --> 00:21:48,273 And and, you know, you know, again, you know, 479 00:21:48,273 --> 00:21:51,643 kind of connecting the dots for me personally, I'm a very routinized person. 480 00:21:51,643 --> 00:21:53,578 Like I love my routines and my habits. 481 00:21:53,578 --> 00:21:55,280 And so now that I don't really 482 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,017 have that structured day in, day out or in some type of a flow, 483 00:21:59,084 --> 00:22:02,020 it's up and down with like how I how I'm able to manage that. 484 00:22:02,020 --> 00:22:02,788 That's interesting. 485 00:22:02,788 --> 00:22:03,755 And, you know, as you're 486 00:22:03,755 --> 00:22:07,793 talking about this, I'm thinking about when sometimes when you have me personally 487 00:22:07,793 --> 00:22:10,796 have like anxiety about a decision, it's a flip flop. 488 00:22:10,829 --> 00:22:13,532 You end up making the same decision ten times. 489 00:22:13,532 --> 00:22:18,937 Well, I go to the gym now and I don't like I go at noon and you say, Well, go now. 490 00:22:19,438 --> 00:22:20,806 I shoot. 491 00:22:20,806 --> 00:22:22,441 This going to happen, Let's go at noon. 492 00:22:22,441 --> 00:22:26,144 And and you flip flop so many times that, you know, you end up, 493 00:22:26,712 --> 00:22:29,348 you know, working yourself into a tizzy. 494 00:22:29,514 --> 00:22:33,218 Yeah, it's the same it's I think I read it was something called 495 00:22:33,218 --> 00:22:34,686 like second guessing decisions, right. 496 00:22:34,686 --> 00:22:36,555 Where it's like, don't make a decision. 497 00:22:36,555 --> 00:22:38,857 Don't second guess it, because the moment you start doing 498 00:22:38,857 --> 00:22:42,627 that, you're adding extra decisions under decisions you already made. 499 00:22:42,928 --> 00:22:44,796 It feels like you're going gamify this. 500 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,432 Everybody had like a counter above their head. Like, Yeah. 501 00:22:47,699 --> 00:22:50,435 And just watch somebody get stuck in a like a, 502 00:22:51,036 --> 00:22:53,805 a state where it's just like, decisions are going crazy. 503 00:22:53,805 --> 00:22:54,506 Do they think? 504 00:22:54,506 --> 00:22:57,342 Yeah, de de de. De de de de de de de. 505 00:22:57,342 --> 00:22:58,143 Absolutely. 506 00:22:59,244 --> 00:22:59,611 Have you 507 00:22:59,611 --> 00:23:02,347 ever thought about decision fatigue before today? 508 00:23:02,581 --> 00:23:06,251 No, I just I was saying earlier, I didn't I didn't really outside of us 509 00:23:06,251 --> 00:23:08,520 talking about the dinner thing for us, I mean, 510 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,490 because that that's very real for us and it feels silly. 511 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:14,192 But at the end of the day, the last thing I want to do 512 00:23:14,192 --> 00:23:16,161 is try to like, narrow down dinner options. 513 00:23:16,161 --> 00:23:19,431 There's so many options and then it's like, well, that cascades 514 00:23:19,431 --> 00:23:22,834 into, Well, do we have all this stuff here or do I need to go to the store? 515 00:23:22,868 --> 00:23:23,935 How are we going to do this? 516 00:23:23,935 --> 00:23:27,839 And literally in preparation for this show, I was like, What if we just said, 517 00:23:27,973 --> 00:23:28,573 You wake up, 518 00:23:28,573 --> 00:23:29,775 we say, here's 519 00:23:29,775 --> 00:23:32,711 what we're going to have for dinner, Then I don't even need to worry about that 520 00:23:33,412 --> 00:23:33,678 right? 521 00:23:33,678 --> 00:23:37,783 This might be a routine or discipline thing, 522 00:23:37,783 --> 00:23:42,554 but sometimes I wake up, grab my phone and boom, it's off to the races. 523 00:23:42,554 --> 00:23:44,823 The important decisions aren't getting me made. 524 00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:45,657 Starting there. 525 00:23:45,657 --> 00:23:49,861 I'm probably just reacting to stuff that's just catch up work that I can do later. 526 00:23:49,861 --> 00:23:50,962 So prioritizing 527 00:23:50,962 --> 00:23:54,966 that type of input, protecting myself seems more important than ever. 528 00:23:55,467 --> 00:23:55,934 The point. 529 00:23:55,934 --> 00:23:57,068 Do you sleep with your phone? 530 00:23:57,068 --> 00:24:01,173 It's next to my bed, but it's I think at 10:00 it goes on to 531 00:24:01,173 --> 00:24:03,241 I don't even get notifications after ten, but. 532 00:24:03,241 --> 00:24:05,277 It's very easy to grab it and look at it. 533 00:24:05,277 --> 00:24:07,879 You know, I don't I'm pretty good until I wake up. Yeah. 534 00:24:07,913 --> 00:24:09,214 Soon as I wake up, it's in my. 535 00:24:09,214 --> 00:24:11,383 And where's your phone? Been downstairs. 536 00:24:11,583 --> 00:24:14,252 Good job. Yeah, good job. Use your wife's phone. 537 00:24:15,887 --> 00:24:17,122 No. Well, because. 538 00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:19,591 You could phone under the patty. Stash. Had to. 539 00:24:19,624 --> 00:24:23,028 I had to plug it and downstairs is. I feel. 540 00:24:23,028 --> 00:24:23,795 Is that 541 00:24:23,962 --> 00:24:27,766 just at the end of the night getting caught Doomscrolling, if you will, or. 542 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,136 Are just And I try to give myself a little bit of time 543 00:24:31,136 --> 00:24:34,606 in the morning before without having that be the first thing. 544 00:24:34,639 --> 00:24:38,577 I don't think that there's any benefit and I mean any benefit 545 00:24:38,610 --> 00:24:42,747 to getting news from friends, real news. 546 00:24:42,747 --> 00:24:47,519 Anything work, work, news, work alerts, even a best friend, 547 00:24:47,552 --> 00:24:48,520 you know, saying hello. 548 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:52,424 I just I don't think there's any benefit to that being the first thing you look at. 549 00:24:52,424 --> 00:24:54,059 What if I sent you a text that said, 550 00:24:54,059 --> 00:24:56,061 I love you, Ben, Wouldn't I feel good to wake up to? 551 00:24:56,495 --> 00:25:00,899 Well, now that would warm my heart and fill my cup. 552 00:25:02,067 --> 00:25:04,436 But that makes me immediately. 553 00:25:04,436 --> 00:25:06,538 I just start thinking external things. 554 00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:07,172 Yeah, right. 555 00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:11,510 Instead of just waking up and being, you know, 556 00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:14,045 and I do a little bit of routine in the morning, but I'm just saying. 557 00:25:14,045 --> 00:25:17,582 But also like waking up and like having some gratitude and being like, 558 00:25:17,582 --> 00:25:22,320 okay, like here's what today is going to bring for me and, and think a little bit. 559 00:25:22,420 --> 00:25:24,356 And whether or not to have a beer. 560 00:25:24,356 --> 00:25:25,056 Well, yeah. 561 00:25:25,056 --> 00:25:30,095 And damn, what's funny though, is that actually right There's a real fire. 562 00:25:30,128 --> 00:25:31,796 You know, you say that 563 00:25:31,796 --> 00:25:34,866 and I immediately become and maybe we should have a beer today 564 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,271 and now and now that the counter starts and all those things. 565 00:25:39,271 --> 00:25:41,506 So I think you're on to something. I don't. 566 00:25:41,506 --> 00:25:45,944 I want to do some homework after the show because I think there is science 567 00:25:45,944 --> 00:25:46,912 behind what you're saying. 568 00:25:46,912 --> 00:25:48,780 I don't think it suggests what you're thinking. 569 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:52,651 I think there's real evidence that the phone first thing in the morning 570 00:25:52,651 --> 00:25:54,886 and last thing at night is not good for you. 571 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,987 There is. There is. 572 00:25:55,987 --> 00:25:56,955 And I what's hard 573 00:25:56,955 --> 00:26:01,560 is like a lot of the things that I read and look at are not necessary early. 574 00:26:02,127 --> 00:26:03,295 I'm not sure what to say. 575 00:26:03,295 --> 00:26:05,263 Like, well, no, no, we're friendly. 576 00:26:07,332 --> 00:26:08,533 I like science. 577 00:26:08,533 --> 00:26:09,200 See? Right. 578 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,939 So it's somebody that's like kind of like, Hey, we did this 579 00:26:13,939 --> 00:26:18,143 study or, or we talked to some people or we think this right? 580 00:26:18,143 --> 00:26:20,946 I, I always bring it back to almost like a weight loss thing 581 00:26:20,979 --> 00:26:26,117 and my to give tailored it to expand upon your puzzled look on your face at me 582 00:26:26,217 --> 00:26:26,551 is I think 583 00:26:26,551 --> 00:26:30,422 everyone knows how to lose weight the same thing doesn't work for everybody. 584 00:26:30,555 --> 00:26:33,325 Yeah true. And it's not about the science. 585 00:26:33,391 --> 00:26:37,929 It's about literally what would work for you, would not work for me, etc., etc.. 586 00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:41,299 So I think some of the stuff that I talk about is kind of the same way. 587 00:26:41,299 --> 00:26:41,800 And when you 588 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,770 find something that works for you, then you've just got to glob on to it. 589 00:26:45,804 --> 00:26:49,674 Yeah, that links decision making habits that that all comes together 590 00:26:49,674 --> 00:26:50,542 and what you just said. 591 00:26:50,542 --> 00:26:50,875 Yeah. 592 00:26:50,875 --> 00:26:53,378 Let me make sure I understand because losing weight, 593 00:26:53,378 --> 00:26:56,748 I think for the most part there's a framework that works. 594 00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,284 The science, there's the science piece that works. 595 00:26:59,284 --> 00:27:01,386 Everybody could do that to lose weight. 596 00:27:01,386 --> 00:27:05,957 So what you're arguing, though, that framework isn't necessarily approach 597 00:27:05,991 --> 00:27:09,361 viable to everybody where they are in their life. 598 00:27:09,361 --> 00:27:10,795 What I'm saying, I know how to lose weight. 599 00:27:10,795 --> 00:27:13,832 I could go do it right now if I had the willpower. 600 00:27:14,199 --> 00:27:15,867 And that's exactly what I'm saying. 601 00:27:15,867 --> 00:27:16,167 Okay. 602 00:27:16,167 --> 00:27:20,205 Is is just yeah, there is like a factual like do this. 603 00:27:20,205 --> 00:27:22,440 And again and it's funny because it's also bleeding 604 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,211 in with decision fatigue is but then there's habits Yeah 605 00:27:26,244 --> 00:27:29,981 when you have a habit of doing something 606 00:27:29,981 --> 00:27:32,984 that goes against that and it's really hard. 607 00:27:33,118 --> 00:27:35,954 And I guess that's what I'm trying to say is that so it's not necessarily 608 00:27:36,021 --> 00:27:38,923 a one size fits all solution for everybody. 609 00:27:38,957 --> 00:27:42,927 It's probably a little bit harder to prove to you like a true 610 00:27:42,927 --> 00:27:49,234 medical condition, scientific if you make 1000 decisions or 1001 611 00:27:49,434 --> 00:27:52,570 does, one decision will be will 612 00:27:52,570 --> 00:27:55,707 get less attention than the first 1000 or something like that. 613 00:27:55,707 --> 00:27:59,944 There's no doubt in my mind that there is a path 614 00:27:59,944 --> 00:28:03,915 to help walk you down to to make this a little bit better for you. 615 00:28:04,115 --> 00:28:04,349 Yeah. 616 00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:09,087 So you think about on the same theme any structure diet out there 617 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:10,555 that you can think of. 618 00:28:10,555 --> 00:28:12,557 And so like I think of Weight Watchers, you know, 619 00:28:12,557 --> 00:28:16,594 I know a little bit this is my mom does it and there removing decisions 620 00:28:16,594 --> 00:28:17,495 that you have to make 621 00:28:17,495 --> 00:28:21,466 by giving assigning points to everything and saying by the end of the day 622 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,569 you should not exceed your point total of x, whatever it is. 623 00:28:24,569 --> 00:28:24,969 Right. 624 00:28:24,969 --> 00:28:28,907 And then these are that like any food, this is the point, individual point 625 00:28:28,907 --> 00:28:29,641 it will have. 626 00:28:29,641 --> 00:28:32,811 And so what they're doing is they're eliminating the complexity 627 00:28:32,811 --> 00:28:36,815 or reducing the complexity around what is your calorie intake, what are your 628 00:28:37,015 --> 00:28:39,551 how much fat are you getting, what's your protein intake? 629 00:28:39,551 --> 00:28:42,187 You know, what are their carbs look like, your sugars and all that stuff. 630 00:28:42,187 --> 00:28:44,622 You know, I think things like like paleo, same thing. 631 00:28:44,622 --> 00:28:47,892 It's like, you know, you're trying to lose weight or to live a certain way. 632 00:28:47,892 --> 00:28:49,561 These are allowed and these are not allowed. 633 00:28:49,561 --> 00:28:54,065 So each of these diets for the same thing are all, let's remove 634 00:28:54,065 --> 00:28:58,069 the amount of decisions you have to individually make to to make 635 00:28:58,069 --> 00:29:02,607 this thing more approachable, this goal that you're after, more approachable. 636 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,009 What I'm thinking now is food prepping. 637 00:29:05,410 --> 00:29:06,311 Yeah, right. Yeah. 638 00:29:06,311 --> 00:29:09,681 It removes almost every decision you have to make around food. 639 00:29:10,281 --> 00:29:13,618 Weightwatchers is probably a step in between that and just, you know, 640 00:29:13,651 --> 00:29:15,220 ad hoc food thought. 641 00:29:15,220 --> 00:29:18,890 And we do hellofresh too, which is, yeah, you know, we still have to cook. 642 00:29:18,890 --> 00:29:21,292 It's almost like food prep, but we sit down 643 00:29:21,292 --> 00:29:23,027 and decide what we're going to eat in days, 644 00:29:23,027 --> 00:29:26,865 a week, get the box in and we know that's taken care of that decisions made. 645 00:29:26,965 --> 00:29:28,032 Yeah, So that's interesting. 646 00:29:28,032 --> 00:29:32,370 And like I'm tying this in my head to entrepreneurship right now and problems 647 00:29:32,370 --> 00:29:35,940 that you want to solve and pain points for customers and new products and all that. 648 00:29:36,508 --> 00:29:40,712 There's probably a really good smoke test for ideas of just to say 649 00:29:40,712 --> 00:29:45,016 as far as decision fatigue goes, how does this idea play into that? 650 00:29:45,016 --> 00:29:47,185 Doesn't it does it make it worse? Does it help? 651 00:29:47,185 --> 00:29:49,220 It is a very easy test that I think 652 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:51,923 almost always you would want there to be less decisions made. 653 00:29:52,557 --> 00:29:57,028 And I think it goes back to thinking that you have to make the right decisions. 654 00:29:57,028 --> 00:29:57,428 Right. 655 00:29:57,428 --> 00:30:00,532 There's probably a lot of right decisions have a lot of wrong decisions. 656 00:30:00,532 --> 00:30:02,200 Right. And there's a blending of it. 657 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,639 But I think what you're saying is exactly right is how do we in a business setting 658 00:30:07,639 --> 00:30:10,975 or when we're trying to tackle so many problems in entrepreneurship, 659 00:30:10,975 --> 00:30:14,245 find ways to focus on the big thing, spend your energy 660 00:30:14,245 --> 00:30:16,848 there, do the right amount of analysis around it, 661 00:30:16,848 --> 00:30:19,784 and then make, you know, decisions you know, forward as well. 662 00:30:19,784 --> 00:30:21,085 I totally see what you're saying. 663 00:30:21,085 --> 00:30:24,189 Something else that is jumping out to me in response to 664 00:30:24,189 --> 00:30:27,392 that is this thing that I read about. 665 00:30:27,392 --> 00:30:32,463 And as I was doing research, it's called Parkinson's law and never heard of this. 666 00:30:32,463 --> 00:30:35,767 But as soon as I read about it, I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a very real thing. 667 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:41,072 And Parkinson's law states that work will expand into the amount of time 668 00:30:41,072 --> 00:30:44,843 we allow it regardless of how long the task actually should take. 669 00:30:44,909 --> 00:30:46,110 So think about it like this. 670 00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:47,645 If you've got a presentation to build 671 00:30:47,645 --> 00:30:50,748 at work and you said, okay, I'm going to give myself a month, like 672 00:30:50,949 --> 00:30:53,751 the deadline is a month, it's going to take you a month 673 00:30:54,018 --> 00:30:56,955 to make that presentation when in reality, when you put it together and you 674 00:30:57,488 --> 00:31:00,258 total all the time, probably took a couple of days or a week 675 00:31:00,258 --> 00:31:01,659 or something like that. Right. 676 00:31:01,659 --> 00:31:05,063 And so it leaves me wondering, you know, how do we 677 00:31:05,096 --> 00:31:08,833 and we were talking about this offline, but to bring it back in, 678 00:31:09,167 --> 00:31:11,970 you know, when you've got decisions that are multifaceted, complex, 679 00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:15,974 you need to make many decisions for, say, a project or something 680 00:31:15,974 --> 00:31:17,942 that's like kind of a bigger initiative, right? 681 00:31:17,942 --> 00:31:19,277 Something that's in the horizon. 682 00:31:19,277 --> 00:31:23,114 How do you break it down in a way that doesn't add 683 00:31:23,114 --> 00:31:26,818 to many decisions, but it's getting you to the right level of decision making? 684 00:31:26,818 --> 00:31:29,320 So I've been reviewing right, that Parkinson's love, 685 00:31:29,354 --> 00:31:31,923 Hey, if we're going to get we have anything to do, whatever 686 00:31:31,923 --> 00:31:34,926 amount of time we allow for it, that's that's the time that's going to take. 687 00:31:35,159 --> 00:31:37,896 Plus the how do we, you know, tackle 688 00:31:37,929 --> 00:31:41,633 big projects, big initiatives that have many decisions that go into it. 689 00:31:41,799 --> 00:31:43,401 Your project management showing. 690 00:31:45,169 --> 00:31:47,405 You just blew my mind. 691 00:31:47,405 --> 00:31:49,207 Yeah, you really did. 692 00:31:49,207 --> 00:31:52,176 It's totally I do that all the time. 693 00:31:52,277 --> 00:31:53,678 That's awful. 694 00:31:53,678 --> 00:31:57,248 And I was going to say the negative effect of that is it 695 00:31:57,248 --> 00:31:58,950 contributes to burnout and overwhelmed. 696 00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:59,984 Because instead. 697 00:31:59,984 --> 00:32:03,087 Of finishing something, you, you might have now six 698 00:32:03,087 --> 00:32:06,991 or seven things that that are occupying cognitive space in your head. 699 00:32:06,991 --> 00:32:07,558 Yeah, yeah. 700 00:32:07,558 --> 00:32:10,028 And and it gets back a little bit too. 701 00:32:10,228 --> 00:32:12,830 You know I was saying this about like the, like hiring somebody. 702 00:32:12,897 --> 00:32:14,732 You say, Oh, hey, I'll make a decision on that. 703 00:32:14,732 --> 00:32:17,468 I'll, I'll let you know Friday morning. Okay. Yes. Yeah. 704 00:32:17,502 --> 00:32:18,703 And so then what do you do. 705 00:32:18,703 --> 00:32:20,538 You ruminate on it all week 706 00:32:20,538 --> 00:32:23,908 and because you've given yourself all this, I do that to myself all the time 707 00:32:24,809 --> 00:32:27,679 and I overthink about it and do this and, 708 00:32:27,679 --> 00:32:32,917 and unknowingly and creating more time, energy 709 00:32:32,917 --> 00:32:36,587 decisions, what, you know, all the things that are tied into that. 710 00:32:36,988 --> 00:32:38,890 Two things that don't need that much time. 711 00:32:38,890 --> 00:32:39,891 Absolutely. 712 00:32:39,891 --> 00:32:43,928 And for some reason I mean, I'm yeah, it literally blew my mind 713 00:32:43,928 --> 00:32:44,462 Like I'm sitting here. 714 00:32:44,462 --> 00:32:45,430 I do that all the time. 715 00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:47,198 I'm like, yeah, 716 00:32:47,198 --> 00:32:51,135 I made that choice by Friday thinking that I'm doing myself a favor. 717 00:32:51,569 --> 00:32:57,008 And I it's like a time credit card where it is, I'm not going to pay now. 718 00:32:57,041 --> 00:32:59,777 Yeah, I'm going to pay in six easy installments. 719 00:32:59,777 --> 00:33:00,778 Exactly. 720 00:33:00,778 --> 00:33:03,114 Which means I'm going to, I'm going to be interest. 721 00:33:03,181 --> 00:33:04,849 Yeah, yeah. 722 00:33:04,849 --> 00:33:07,986 25%. Holy cow, man. 723 00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:08,920 There's your book. 724 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,090 We've got a couple ideas from Brett and now Taylor. 725 00:33:12,090 --> 00:33:13,191 Yeah, yeah. 726 00:33:13,191 --> 00:33:14,625 No, I do it all the time too. 727 00:33:14,625 --> 00:33:18,129 I read that, and you just had to, like, look at myself in the mirror for a bit. 728 00:33:18,162 --> 00:33:19,764 Like, what's wrong with you? Like. 729 00:33:19,764 --> 00:33:20,732 Holy cow. 730 00:33:20,732 --> 00:33:21,632 What for? 731 00:33:21,632 --> 00:33:23,901 Something just to add to to help you out, you know? 732 00:33:24,002 --> 00:33:27,171 And I don't know, like, I'm still thinking about this for myself, but 733 00:33:27,171 --> 00:33:31,175 a tip that the this is out of the same HPR article How to Stop Overthinking. 734 00:33:31,175 --> 00:33:32,043 So I'll share it with you 735 00:33:32,043 --> 00:33:34,512 and we'll put it in the show notes as well so folks can access it. 736 00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:36,581 One of the tips was, you know, 737 00:33:36,581 --> 00:33:40,718 instead of giving yourself deadlines for objectives 738 00:33:40,718 --> 00:33:44,589 or tasks, you set yourselves deadlines for making the choice. 739 00:33:44,622 --> 00:33:47,191 So like, instead of saying, I'm going to finish this 740 00:33:47,191 --> 00:33:50,428 by by X amount of time, try to put it out of your mind 741 00:33:50,428 --> 00:33:55,033 and just say, I'm going to decide what I'm going to do with this by date. 742 00:33:55,066 --> 00:33:55,733 Right? 743 00:33:55,733 --> 00:33:59,170 And then as soon as you make the decision, it kind of becomes just execution. 744 00:33:59,203 --> 00:34:01,305 So instead of thinking, oh, what's the priority? 745 00:34:01,305 --> 00:34:02,707 How do I juggle this? 746 00:34:02,707 --> 00:34:06,044 Like, Oh, yeah, I'll have more time for this next week, 747 00:34:06,044 --> 00:34:07,545 try to put all that out of your head. 748 00:34:07,545 --> 00:34:09,047 And as soon as you know you do something, 749 00:34:09,047 --> 00:34:11,382 just say, Look, I've got time on the calendar. 750 00:34:11,382 --> 00:34:14,385 Wednesday at noon, I'm going to choose what to do about this thing 751 00:34:14,519 --> 00:34:17,522 and just keep going about what you're going to do ahead of time. 752 00:34:17,855 --> 00:34:21,726 So I'm still thinking about I would actually execute that in real life. 753 00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:24,929 But the punch line is don't set deadlines for the thing. 754 00:34:24,929 --> 00:34:27,331 Set deadlines for your choices. Okay? Yeah. 755 00:34:27,498 --> 00:34:30,334 Do you have an example that you've used to think through this? 756 00:34:30,334 --> 00:34:31,836 An example? 757 00:34:31,836 --> 00:34:35,606 Not not really like I've been trying, but if I were to try to spitball 758 00:34:35,606 --> 00:34:37,875 one out loud, I think about the presentation. 759 00:34:37,875 --> 00:34:40,778 I've had to make many presentations in my professional life 760 00:34:40,778 --> 00:34:44,482 and typically the things that are being requested, right? 761 00:34:44,482 --> 00:34:45,583 So I'll have a supervisor. 762 00:34:45,583 --> 00:34:49,253 Taylor Can you present on this initiative 763 00:34:49,253 --> 00:34:52,890 at the quarterly stand up in two weeks and I'll say yes. 764 00:34:53,191 --> 00:34:55,359 So there's your deadline. You got two weeks, right? 765 00:34:55,359 --> 00:34:57,795 But I've got my day job, I've got other things to manage, 766 00:34:57,795 --> 00:34:59,063 I've got my outside life. 767 00:34:59,063 --> 00:35:04,001 So instead of saying, okay, I've got two weeks to do this all budget, 768 00:35:04,001 --> 00:35:07,905 an hour or week or, you know, whatever or hour a day or something on this, 769 00:35:07,905 --> 00:35:12,076 I just as soon say, look, I'll put this decision off 770 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:14,445 on terms of like how I'll build this presentation, 771 00:35:14,479 --> 00:35:16,347 how much time it's going to take, whatever. 772 00:35:16,347 --> 00:35:16,914 I know it's 773 00:35:16,914 --> 00:35:21,185 not going to take me two weeks, but I'm going to decide on Friday, right? 774 00:35:21,419 --> 00:35:24,622 I'm going to just like let this week go by and on Friday 775 00:35:24,622 --> 00:35:28,793 I'll make a choice on how I decide to execute this whole thing. 776 00:35:28,793 --> 00:35:31,629 And then from there, you know, kind of maybe map something out 777 00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:34,098 in terms of the content or make a framework 778 00:35:34,098 --> 00:35:35,633 and then just start to execute. 779 00:35:35,633 --> 00:35:39,704 But I know it's not a great example, but I'm I'm still working through like, 780 00:35:39,704 --> 00:35:45,309 how do I make deadline choices instead of tasks, deadline deadline for tasks? 781 00:35:45,376 --> 00:35:50,248 Yeah, this feels a little bit like agile methodologies where, I mean, 782 00:35:50,248 --> 00:35:54,252 you typically what you're going to do is if you have a sprint in the tech world. 783 00:35:54,252 --> 00:35:58,322 So a period of time, the two weeks, for example, you're like, here's 784 00:35:58,322 --> 00:36:02,126 here's all the tasks that we want to try to get done in this two weeks. 785 00:36:02,126 --> 00:36:06,631 Everything else we know we have to get to, but it's going to sit in some lower 786 00:36:06,631 --> 00:36:11,435 fidelity state where we haven't like made the decisions of how to do things. 787 00:36:11,435 --> 00:36:13,471 We just know that thing has to get done. 788 00:36:13,471 --> 00:36:15,573 What were we deciding on? Right now? It's here. 789 00:36:15,573 --> 00:36:18,209 The top ten priority things we're going to do right now. 790 00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:19,977 We're going to figure out how to get that done 791 00:36:19,977 --> 00:36:21,712 and then we're going to adjust later. 792 00:36:21,712 --> 00:36:23,281 But that's a very process. 793 00:36:23,281 --> 00:36:28,352 Heavy way to think, at least this for me, making decisions that I'm trying to think 794 00:36:28,352 --> 00:36:33,291 practically through how I could apply that to just even making decisions at work. 795 00:36:33,291 --> 00:36:34,625 And I know I know it's a. 796 00:36:34,625 --> 00:36:39,897 I think the example you use right there, though, is, is also many decisions, right? 797 00:36:39,897 --> 00:36:40,298 Yeah. 798 00:36:40,298 --> 00:36:41,866 I mean, if you're if you're making if you're 799 00:36:41,866 --> 00:36:45,937 trying to build a two week sprint for your employees, you know, 800 00:36:45,937 --> 00:36:47,972 and all the things that are going to get accomplished, 801 00:36:47,972 --> 00:36:49,941 I mean that's a lot of decisions. 802 00:36:49,941 --> 00:36:50,241 Yeah. 803 00:36:50,241 --> 00:36:53,945 Versus maybe saying, hey, we've got a two week sprint coming up. 804 00:36:53,945 --> 00:36:57,415 I'm going to give myself until Tuesday to decide what the you know, like 805 00:36:57,782 --> 00:37:01,719 I want those topics are and then taking it off in bite sized chunks, 806 00:37:02,053 --> 00:37:06,390 knowing that you'll still have a lot of decisions around every chunk of time. 807 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:09,260 Right. Right. And something you said just clicked in my brain. 808 00:37:09,260 --> 00:37:12,597 I think I think the objective here is it's almost like you're going 809 00:37:12,597 --> 00:37:13,864 to go through the same process. 810 00:37:13,864 --> 00:37:15,900 You're going to make the same amount of decisions, 811 00:37:16,067 --> 00:37:17,702 but it's almost like you're deciding 812 00:37:17,702 --> 00:37:21,439 not to spend the energy on that until you need to. 813 00:37:21,439 --> 00:37:23,641 Are you ready to write more like a brain hack? 814 00:37:23,641 --> 00:37:25,876 Yeah, that's a good way of thinking about it. 815 00:37:26,143 --> 00:37:28,779 Brain hack. I mean, a lot of that is brain hacks, right? 816 00:37:28,779 --> 00:37:31,515 That were a lot of what we talked about has to be brain hacks. 817 00:37:31,515 --> 00:37:32,850 It's because we're never, 818 00:37:32,850 --> 00:37:35,720 ever going to be able to keep up with demands all the time. 819 00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:40,291 So know and if you're if you're putting some thought into how to think. 820 00:37:41,058 --> 00:37:41,759 Meta. 821 00:37:41,759 --> 00:37:44,262 Maybe, you know, you can move yourself along a little bit faster. 822 00:37:44,395 --> 00:37:48,733 So Brett Taylor gave some really mind blowing thoughts there on this. 823 00:37:48,733 --> 00:37:51,569 What is your research drum up about decision fatigue? 824 00:37:51,769 --> 00:37:54,772 One of the the funniest things I came across, it's 825 00:37:54,772 --> 00:37:57,575 not even necessarily funny, but it's that's fun to read. 826 00:37:57,908 --> 00:38:01,412 There was a study, I think it was in the nineties by this guy 827 00:38:01,412 --> 00:38:05,583 named Bower Meister, and he had a study of 67 people 828 00:38:06,017 --> 00:38:08,786 threw in a room with freshly baked cookies 829 00:38:08,786 --> 00:38:12,156 and then they said, basically, you guys can eat these, 830 00:38:13,124 --> 00:38:14,058 you guys can 831 00:38:14,058 --> 00:38:17,061 eat these, but you can eat radishes, right? 832 00:38:17,061 --> 00:38:22,333 And so he created this really weird atmosphere where people had to abstain 833 00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:24,902 and make the decision not to eat the cookies over and over. 834 00:38:24,902 --> 00:38:27,271 The ones that ate the radishes actually resented 835 00:38:27,271 --> 00:38:30,308 the fact that they ate radishes and wanted the cookies even more. 836 00:38:30,308 --> 00:38:32,476 There was even fun stories in the article, 837 00:38:32,476 --> 00:38:35,579 which I'll put in the show notes about people staring at the glass 838 00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:39,150 like longingly for cookies because they're like, Oh, radishes. 839 00:38:39,150 --> 00:38:41,052 But at the end of this, what they didn't know 840 00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:42,520 is they threw some puzzles at them 841 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,256 and the people that had to abstain from eating the cookies. 842 00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:48,693 Even worse, the ones that ate the radishes, the ones that couldn't 843 00:38:48,693 --> 00:38:52,830 eat the cookies, more trouble doing the puzzles at the end of the day, 844 00:38:52,830 --> 00:38:57,134 because they have spent so time and energy not eating cookies. 845 00:38:57,134 --> 00:39:01,672 Making that actual decision sums up a lot of things we talked about includes food. 846 00:39:01,706 --> 00:39:04,542 You know, if you think about it, the end of your business day, 847 00:39:04,575 --> 00:39:08,312 all the decisions you make and I'm going to bring this back to me and my wife. 848 00:39:08,412 --> 00:39:09,113 I do that. 849 00:39:09,113 --> 00:39:11,549 I walk upstairs fresh out of work. 850 00:39:11,549 --> 00:39:13,918 What's for dinner like? Oh, my. 851 00:39:13,918 --> 00:39:15,753 A, they don't care. 852 00:39:15,753 --> 00:39:17,855 Just throw something in my mouth. 853 00:39:17,855 --> 00:39:19,023 Tell me what to do. 854 00:39:19,023 --> 00:39:19,890 I'll make dinner. 855 00:39:19,890 --> 00:39:22,526 I'd rather make dinner than have to make this decision right now. 856 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,061 Right. And. And she feels the same way. 857 00:39:24,061 --> 00:39:24,628 So it's. 858 00:39:24,628 --> 00:39:27,932 We've come to an agreement that we tried not to ask that question. 859 00:39:28,265 --> 00:39:30,401 That's so it's a taboo topic. It is. 860 00:39:30,735 --> 00:39:32,370 And something so simple. Right. 861 00:39:32,370 --> 00:39:36,040 And you think about how this decision fatigue can really affect 862 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:38,576 all parts of your life in the pandemic. 863 00:39:38,576 --> 00:39:40,511 All of a sudden, there's a lot more decisions, 864 00:39:40,511 --> 00:39:43,514 maybe there's more stress, and you're running out of your find out 865 00:39:43,514 --> 00:39:45,182 willpower at noon. 866 00:39:45,182 --> 00:39:47,485 You can't even make it through a full day of work, Right? 867 00:39:47,752 --> 00:39:50,287 So what does that mean for a business? 868 00:39:50,287 --> 00:39:53,257 You can't just say productivity is down right now, 869 00:39:53,958 --> 00:39:56,627 you know, to 85% and it's due to remote work. 870 00:39:57,027 --> 00:39:58,662 It's just not true. Yeah. 871 00:39:58,662 --> 00:40:00,765 How do you actually address that as a business? 872 00:40:01,232 --> 00:40:04,802 So the first thing that I wonder 873 00:40:04,969 --> 00:40:08,639 when that question is actually another question and it is 874 00:40:08,639 --> 00:40:12,309 who's making decisions and how is that spread out amongst organization? 875 00:40:12,543 --> 00:40:14,478 I'm going to kick this one to, Ben, because I'm 876 00:40:14,478 --> 00:40:16,247 I'm a little fatigued at the moment. 877 00:40:16,247 --> 00:40:17,448 So funny. Yeah. 878 00:40:17,448 --> 00:40:19,383 No, I would love Ben's take on this. 879 00:40:19,383 --> 00:40:23,854 And what I'm getting at, Ben, is like the theory, the hypothesis in my head 880 00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:28,292 is that the people making decisions aren't plentiful enough, 881 00:40:28,292 --> 00:40:32,530 not for lack of having people to make decisions, but for not having 882 00:40:32,530 --> 00:40:35,733 maybe that trust or level of delegation 883 00:40:35,733 --> 00:40:38,769 granted throughout an entire organization. 884 00:40:38,769 --> 00:40:41,472 Is your decision making too concentrated? 885 00:40:41,505 --> 00:40:42,740 Yeah, I would think about that. 886 00:40:42,740 --> 00:40:45,576 A frame that as our people are empowered 887 00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:50,347 to make decisions and if power, if people are empowered to make decisions 888 00:40:50,347 --> 00:40:56,020 and they don't have to ask so many, if you have a line of ten people, right. 889 00:40:56,020 --> 00:40:59,924 And if every person is kicking X number of questions up 890 00:40:59,924 --> 00:41:04,061 the chain, you can see you end up getting an overload there, Right? 891 00:41:04,094 --> 00:41:06,330 So I think a lot of it would be 892 00:41:06,330 --> 00:41:10,334 comes down to the fact that people are not empowered to make decisions. 893 00:41:10,367 --> 00:41:10,835 The other thing 894 00:41:10,835 --> 00:41:14,905 I think about is that when get into maybe a decision fatigue situation. 895 00:41:14,905 --> 00:41:19,243 Real quick, when you say empowerment, are you saying people aren't delegating 896 00:41:19,243 --> 00:41:20,611 decisions well. Enough? 897 00:41:20,611 --> 00:41:24,615 I think maybe the the an organization like the whole structure, 898 00:41:24,648 --> 00:41:29,954 people are not allowed or maybe don't feel safe to make decisions. 899 00:41:30,221 --> 00:41:30,621 Okay. 900 00:41:30,621 --> 00:41:33,257 So that becomes a very top down culture where. 901 00:41:33,691 --> 00:41:33,924 Okay. 902 00:41:33,924 --> 00:41:38,229 And and then they, of course, are pushing hey, boss, I don't know what to do here. 903 00:41:38,229 --> 00:41:40,798 And they kick it up, but they probably do know what to do. 904 00:41:40,831 --> 00:41:43,667 Right. And if they were empowered, they could just do it right. 905 00:41:43,667 --> 00:41:47,171 As decision fatigue sets in, then people also. 906 00:41:47,171 --> 00:41:51,542 The other problem is, is that even if they are empowered, they start to 907 00:41:51,876 --> 00:41:56,113 second guess themselves, flip flopping, get scared, and then what happens? 908 00:41:56,113 --> 00:41:58,349 You either do one or two things. 909 00:41:58,349 --> 00:42:01,986 You either push your decision out, which just makes it worse. 910 00:42:01,986 --> 00:42:04,421 Or maybe, you know, Brett, you said this earlier, 911 00:42:04,421 --> 00:42:08,325 you know, throwing good money after bad, you may make a poor decision. 912 00:42:08,325 --> 00:42:10,561 But again, your I don't want to. 913 00:42:10,828 --> 00:42:12,129 Put your body in it that Yeah. 914 00:42:12,129 --> 00:42:14,231 You're you're bought in and you don't want to admit 915 00:42:14,231 --> 00:42:16,734 that you screwed up and especially you know 916 00:42:16,901 --> 00:42:20,804 like talking in the in the form of like you hired somebody and we can you're like 917 00:42:20,838 --> 00:42:22,406 oh man, I made a poor decision. 918 00:42:22,406 --> 00:42:25,142 And instead of just addressing that within a week, you. 919 00:42:25,409 --> 00:42:27,745 Well, too late now, here we go. 920 00:42:27,778 --> 00:42:29,346 It's a game of poker at that point. 921 00:42:29,346 --> 00:42:32,816 You like, end it in a and get a chase. 922 00:42:32,816 --> 00:42:34,051 Then here we go. 923 00:42:34,051 --> 00:42:37,021 So I don't think there's any easy answers. 924 00:42:37,021 --> 00:42:40,824 I mean, I think this is a very complex and I think we had kind of talked about it 925 00:42:40,824 --> 00:42:43,794 and thought about it and then how much this conversation has kind of 926 00:42:43,994 --> 00:42:47,698 opened my eyes to how big the situation is 927 00:42:47,998 --> 00:42:52,503 and how I am making it exponentially worse for myself. 928 00:42:53,037 --> 00:42:55,239 That Tallulah got you. It did. 929 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,608 And I got to I got some. 930 00:42:57,608 --> 00:42:59,643 Hot sauce, man. 931 00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:00,544 I got to go. 932 00:43:00,544 --> 00:43:04,515 I got to really I'm really going to spend some time thinking about this 933 00:43:04,515 --> 00:43:08,252 for my own life because I'm disturbed on how much time 934 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,823 I've spent pushing decisions down the road. 935 00:43:12,990 --> 00:43:17,928 Here's a book recommendation real quick for you and for our listeners. 936 00:43:18,062 --> 00:43:21,932 I recommend and I use this, I found it to be very helpful. 937 00:43:22,299 --> 00:43:26,503 It's called Getting Things Done by David Allen, 938 00:43:26,503 --> 00:43:30,374 and it kind of is a it addresses a couple of issues. 939 00:43:30,374 --> 00:43:35,012 It's not just about helping you make decisions, but it really provides 940 00:43:35,245 --> 00:43:38,682 it provides a new kind of life process for how you can help 941 00:43:38,682 --> 00:43:42,252 make your decisions, you know, through not just work but life. 942 00:43:42,286 --> 00:43:44,488 And so I totally recommend it. 943 00:43:44,488 --> 00:43:45,923 It's it's a really good read. 944 00:43:45,923 --> 00:43:47,458 But if you're if you're getting ready 945 00:43:47,458 --> 00:43:49,693 to do some introspection, it might might help. 946 00:43:49,860 --> 00:43:50,327 Okay. 947 00:43:50,327 --> 00:43:50,928 So, Brett, 948 00:43:50,928 --> 00:43:55,766 do you have any input or helpful tips on how to address decision fatigue? 949 00:43:55,833 --> 00:44:00,037 You know, I don't mean a cop out a little bit on a common answer. 950 00:44:00,037 --> 00:44:01,238 In this situation. 951 00:44:01,238 --> 00:44:05,809 You almost have to lean into empathy, whereas as a leader of a company, 952 00:44:05,843 --> 00:44:07,011 you have to understand 953 00:44:07,011 --> 00:44:11,348 if willpower is finite, energy is finite at the end of the day 954 00:44:11,348 --> 00:44:15,552 and you want people at your best, you have to pay attention to their meters. 955 00:44:15,552 --> 00:44:18,889 You have to allow them to do things that fill their cup, 956 00:44:18,889 --> 00:44:23,494 be It go to a Nuggets parade or some special event, take a day off, 957 00:44:23,494 --> 00:44:27,264 take him out to lunch and just talk about something different. 958 00:44:27,264 --> 00:44:30,534 We have to be better about doing that in general. 959 00:44:30,534 --> 00:44:33,370 Otherwise we're going to keep the pedal on the gas 960 00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:36,273 and we're just going to burn the engine out over and over again 961 00:44:36,473 --> 00:44:39,777 and wonder why we spend so much money at the car shop. 962 00:44:40,110 --> 00:44:40,444 You know? 963 00:44:40,444 --> 00:44:42,079 And what jumps out for me, 964 00:44:42,079 --> 00:44:47,251 I love that, Brett, and I want to double down on that train of thought. 965 00:44:47,618 --> 00:44:51,989 I also want to encourage in something that as well as like a board member, 966 00:44:51,989 --> 00:44:54,958 I would try to stresses it's 967 00:44:55,759 --> 00:44:58,128 important to allocate and spread. 968 00:44:59,096 --> 00:45:02,299 And Ben, you kind of mentioned this earlier. 969 00:45:02,299 --> 00:45:05,769 It's up to an organization to help instill a culture of trust to be able to do that 970 00:45:06,136 --> 00:45:10,641 and almost teach employees and team members how to make decisions. 971 00:45:10,708 --> 00:45:14,611 It's it's not it's not even just enough to have the culture of we trust you 972 00:45:14,611 --> 00:45:15,612 to make this decision. 973 00:45:15,612 --> 00:45:19,516 What this conversation is really highlighting for me is you 974 00:45:19,516 --> 00:45:22,486 kind of have to help those people and employees 975 00:45:22,519 --> 00:45:24,955 essentially develop strategies around making decisions. Right. 976 00:45:25,255 --> 00:45:27,257 Understand that there's not just one right answer. 977 00:45:27,257 --> 00:45:28,392 There's probably many. 978 00:45:28,392 --> 00:45:31,161 And so don't fatigue yourself on trying to get it right. 979 00:45:31,161 --> 00:45:33,530 This resonates so well with me. 980 00:45:33,530 --> 00:45:34,798 Just sorry to interrupt. 981 00:45:34,798 --> 00:45:40,003 No, I have been in this place in my career where it's I want more responsibility. 982 00:45:40,003 --> 00:45:41,772 I'm ready for more responsibility. 983 00:45:41,772 --> 00:45:43,707 And somebody says, fine, it's yours. 984 00:45:43,707 --> 00:45:46,376 And you're like, Whoa, wait, what? Like, that's it. 985 00:45:46,410 --> 00:45:50,280 It's just my responsibility now, with with no training, no thought 986 00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:54,985 process in that decision making at that point is full of fear and anxiety. 987 00:45:54,985 --> 00:45:56,487 Absolutely right. 988 00:45:56,487 --> 00:46:00,157 Which brings it I mean, you're going to extend that. 989 00:46:00,157 --> 00:46:04,161 But just imagine the fatigue level of that person who just got that. 990 00:46:04,161 --> 00:46:07,097 And now they're overanalyzing everything and they're again. 991 00:46:07,331 --> 00:46:08,398 Spinning out of control. 992 00:46:08,398 --> 00:46:10,768 It's almost like a personal pandemic, if you will, of a sort 993 00:46:10,968 --> 00:46:12,169 of a very minor sense. Right. 994 00:46:12,169 --> 00:46:14,805 Like it's this huge thing that just got dropped on your shoulders 995 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,641 in addition to all the stuff you do normally in a day. 996 00:46:17,641 --> 00:46:20,077 And now you've got all these extra things to decide. 997 00:46:20,077 --> 00:46:22,679 So it's important to hand that down. 998 00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:25,115 I think it's great for development and great for culture. 999 00:46:25,516 --> 00:46:28,318 We've got to do better at when we're handing that down. 1000 00:46:28,318 --> 00:46:29,553 Help coach 1001 00:46:29,553 --> 00:46:33,957 how to make sure that that load isn't so massive and that it's more manageable. 1002 00:46:33,957 --> 00:46:35,225 It will be more. 1003 00:46:35,225 --> 00:46:37,094 But here's how you can manage it 1004 00:46:37,094 --> 00:46:40,864 better and and teach you how to make decisions more effectively. 1005 00:46:40,864 --> 00:46:44,701 Once again, we suck at developing people who do. 1006 00:46:44,835 --> 00:46:45,903 Then any closing. 1007 00:46:45,903 --> 00:46:49,173 I want to challenge everyone to think 1008 00:46:49,173 --> 00:46:52,242 about the volume of decisions they're making a day. 1009 00:46:52,342 --> 00:46:55,379 If nothing else, maybe acknowledge 1010 00:46:55,412 --> 00:46:59,583 that we are doing more and thinking more than we than we should. 1011 00:46:59,583 --> 00:47:03,120 It sounds weird to say it that way, but seriously, I mean, I think we're we're 1012 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,657 we're putting maybe too much thought into many decisions, into things. 1013 00:47:06,990 --> 00:47:11,161 You're you're saying avoid some self-inflicted wounds. Yes. 1014 00:47:11,361 --> 00:47:12,796 Think about Parkinson's law. 1015 00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:16,700 Think about the ten, ten, ten exercise we did earlier to kind of help like, 1016 00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:17,201 I love that.