Taylor Lowe: You know, I think what could be maybe, and again, thinking, trying to be like upside, potential, right?

Of where AI could help us here, I think folks would, where, you know, there's so many diametrically opposed positions on something like abortion when it comes to homelessness.

I feel like that's a, that's a, that's a condition that most people feel.

You know, the outcome should be the same in terms of like, homelessness is a problem, right?

Like, we don't want people to have to suffer from homelessness.

Brett Hale: Um, I, I'm gonna push back on that.

I have heard people say, I don't care if they're homeless, I just don't wanna see 'em.

Oh, and,

Taylor Lowe: and that's fine.

So I, I, no.

And so, and that's what I mean by that in terms of like the solution could

Brett Hale: be put 'em all in

Taylor Lowe: Texas, the motivation is totally different.

Right.

But the outcome would be no homelessness.

Right.

In your area, in your area.

Whether, whether you don't.

Taylor,

Ben Glathar: I, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you, right?

Whether the goal is no homelessness here

Taylor Lowe: exactly in my face.

So, so I think with that, that being like the core driver, right?

Like I don't want homelessness to be near me or for people like are at all right?

You could then maybe train a bot, right?

So Ben, if you're saying that data set doesn't exist, and, and I agree with you, I don't, I don't think there's something out there, I don't think chat G p t would be able to effectively answer that, that question is how do we address this globally, nationally, however you want to phrase it.

But could you train a bot to do that?

Could you, because cuz there are, there are, there are ways to look around and say, Hey, in, in communities who have seen improvements around the condition of homelessness, what, what were the things that were.

Brett Hale: Thanks for joining us on another episode of Boardroom in the Basement.

We're gonna continue talking about AI today, hopefully from the positive side.

If you like the show, please help us out, subscribe.

We also love to hear from you.

Feedback ideas are welcome at boardroom fm.

Leave us a note or a voice message and stick around to the end of the show.

We're gonna do a fun exercise where each of us choose a coalition meant to help us navigate a new world with AI involved.

Otherwise.

I'm Brett Hale, joined by Taylor.

Mr.

Sustainable Low.

Love it.

Yeah.

Hi.

And Ben taking the hard line.

G Lather.

Hey, everybody.

Initial thoughts on, on, on ai, any, anything from the news that jump out to anybody that you want to start with?

Taylor Lowe: Nothing from the news, but I am curious and maybe Ben, uh, I'm thinking about our last episode.

You were, I think you were.

Like 70% pos on the positive to like, remember we did our like an anxious to like Yeah.

Opportunity.

And you are our most optimistic.

So I, I'm, I want you to answer that question and, and kind of start off with like what, what you hear in the news or like what, where's your mind going with the upside of ai?

Well, I have been,

Ben Glathar: um, layer

Brett Hale: in some anthropomorphism also.

Ben Glathar: I have been, uh, kind of just holding, uh, informal discussions with my friends and family and stuff mm-hmm.

About ai.

And, and again, where I stay positive is, um, I, I don't know that I fully understand it, but I feel like the general public doesn't really.

Understand it.

Sure.

And they do.

And just like, and I, I was winking to Taylor when I was asking you about ai, and I'm like, wait, what do you mean it can't do it for you?

Because I feel like that's what I hear.

Yeah.

Everyone saying is, they're like, well, yeah, you could just go to like Chad, G B T and you're like a marketing professional now, right?

And I'm like, well, what are you talking, you know, like, you can ask it to help you, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And then, and then even, you know, and then I talk to people, oh yeah, my, my son told me his, his class and they're worried about this cheating.

And I'm like, man, there's been Cliff notes since the sixties.

Yeah.

Like you, you could always go to Google and, and ask it and then paraphrase things, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I guess as I'm talking to people, I stay pretty high on the positive side of it.

Hmm.

And I feel like that the doomsday part, maybe not as far away as I wish it was, but.

I think it is far from being there.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so like hours or what are you talking about?

Far years because, because our systems are not there yet.

And, and I'll give you, I'll give you an exa uh, uh, an exact example is the, and, and I learned this from doing a little bit of research about this.

They were talking about the, the age of our FAA system.

Yep.

And like the software that does or not, I don't know if it's f FAA that, you know, but I think that's the body.

The air traffic controller system Yep.

It's like 25 years old.

Yep.

Like it's, it's not anywhere near ready to take a leap to be able to like, put it all on one.

Page, have something, control it, have, have a, have a easy way to, to, to redirect.

You know, it, it's laborious still.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and, and, and, and they don't have a, a person.

Yeah.

Well, and again though, but you'd have to up, you know, there, there's so many things and, and I think are, anyway, so I'm still, I'm still very high in, in what I've been reading through and stuff, and some of the things that even some of the positive things mm-hmm.

Seem like it's still a ways off, quite frankly.

Yeah.

But I'm, no, I'm, I'm, I'm still very positive on it.

And, and I would say the more I've talked to people, the less understanding people have about it,

Brett Hale: that that's also what scares me.

Right.

Like, I totally ag I see your point and, and I agree with you, but I also then think.

If people don't take this seriously right now, it, it has that much more chance of like, taking people by surprise.

Like big,

Taylor Lowe: nasty, surprise, unintended consequences are, yeah.

I mean, they're huge.

Yeah.

Right.

People see, I think, I think it's, it's, it's easy.

Maybe not easy.

Maybe for Ben, it's easy, uh, like seeing the upside, right.

And just being like, this is this opportunity.

But I think the ones that get missed are like the scenarios you're not looking at.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh shit, we never thought about that.

And here it is.

Um, yeah.

So I don't know, have you, but like, are there positive things that you're hearing, reading Brett?

Yeah.

Brett Hale: I mean, I, I think the first job, honestly, that this, this can actually displace, which is a good thing, are politicians, to be perfectly honest.

Interesting.

Say more.

Um, At the end of the day, you know, the, our politicians are, are saying something in public and doing something behind the scenes to either keep their job, make money mm-hmm.

Or, or, or represent their constituents.

Um, and, you know, it's a, it's a mix of all the people out there.

Mm-hmm.

But I think, um, as AI gets, gets more per pervasive in the, in the community, all this stuff is gonna be very clear.

Like, if you were to ask chat G B T, Hey, who should I vote for given this?

Hmm.

It might spit out an answer and you're like, Uhuh, you're wrong.

Chat.

G P t's gonna be like, oh yeah, well here's why.

And you're gonna be like, oh, crap.

Hmm.

Maybe I am a liberal, maybe I am a conservative.

I didn't know that.

Interesting.

Right.

So, I, I think there's a lot of change like that that can happen, that, you know, if you think about the, the education side, which, which I think drives a lot of what this country needs.

Mm-hmm.

This actually gets people, man, this is just fraught with, with, with problems too.

But yeah, it gets people in a state where they can read information that's based on fact and not opinion that's spread out online fully realizing that this fact is generated by an AI and based on all the, everything else out there.

But, but I think it gets us a lot closer to, to being educated by facts and data versus, versus opinion.

Yeah.

Taylor Lowe: Yeah.

And I hate to, I feel like I'm like poo-pooing on our positive episode, but like the thing that I worry about, and it came up last episode, was the disinformation potential.

Right?

Or like, you know, I, I just think of.

You know, there's a, a group of people out there, many people out there who would probably ask chat g p t that que like, who should I vote for if I care about this?

Or like, who's the supporters of this initiative?

Or that, and it providing an answer that they don't like and just being like, nah, it's this, this chat bot's wrong.

Let me go find it somewhere.

Let me go ask somebody, uh, a different chatbot, like a different one, right?

Like ho honestly, and I'm not, I'm not trying to go political on the show or anything like this, but like, imagine a world where like Donald Trump builds a chatbot, right?

Mm-hmm.

Like, just think about that, right?

They're not gonna go to open eyes.

They're gonna be like, let me go use the true social bot.

You know what I mean?

And as that, you know, yeah.

And who the hell knows how that's trained?

Brett, you bought a bias last episode, so I'm, I'm gonna try to squash these thoughts for our happy episode, but that's what's coming up.

Ben Glathar: I, I, I agree with you what you said.

That is the scariest thing in the world to me, but it's a positive.

The the scariest thing in the world to me is when we start, you know, you, it, it can collect a lot of data and that's awesome, but when you, I mean, again, you're just, you're, it's one more step removed.

Like, Hey, yeah, I'm, I'm gonna ask this question and I'm gonna go forth and do what it tells me to do.

I mean, we already get that all day, every day.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

From which whatever you use online is your voice back at you.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I think we all know that.

And, and that's how, actually, how I see it.

Yeah.

It's just a, it is gonna be another one of those tools and.

That, that's going to be your, quite frankly, your voice back at you.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I would say the most information wins.

Brett Hale: Yeah.

I, I, I would challenge that though.

Like I, I, I get what you're saying.

There should be a whole lot more data that's like, just fact-based data taken in with this opinion.

Right.

And I think that's the positive side for me.

Is that a news article right now, they take the data and they spin it, right.

Yeah.

In in whatever way that makes their case.

Yeah.

Where, and what I've seen from chat G B T, and maybe we can do this live in a sec, but ask it a question and, and you can see it.

Would I, if, if, if I had to guess, I'd say, who should I vote for in the Colorado Senate race?

Yeah.

Um, if I just go ask that question right now, the answer for me is like, I'm not, not a, you know, in a position to put my opinion about who you should vote for, but here are the facts around the candidates and where to find more information.

Yeah.

I would expect an answer like that.

Yeah.

Granted, that's chat G B T I think to your point, Taylor, if somebody else is building an AI out there, that's looks like chat, G B t mm-hmm.

Uh, they can certainly very easily make it for, for ne nefarious purposes, but mm-hmm.

But I think that's the positive I'm trying to draw out right now is like there's, there should be a lot more data involved in, in these decisions that are now displayed.

Um, Instead of just opinion that mm-hmm.

Has already been spun.

Mm-hmm.

Taylor Lowe: So let me, let me build on the positive that kind of the positive political theme, if you will, Brett.

And so I think about things like, um, Policy.

Right?

So we, you know, and it's hard with politics, right?

Because there's always different motivations and different drivers behind anything.

But when you look at, uh, just like the, the broad concept of what policy is and like how it's built, um, it's based on data, it's based on, you know, you know, facts.

Most of the time it's based on, you know, trends.

Like, it's, it's a very analytical process.

And I think the, the methods and techniques used for like driving an informing policy right now.

Um, and, and it depends on like what sector you're in, what industry, blah, blah, blah.

But like, um, from my personal experience and having gotten to work with it, like in the energy space, um, like it's slow.

Like it's a lot of like, you know, backward looking.

It's, um, you know, trying to see the trends and it's not always so clean.

And so I think of a.

An area that could, you know, really be served by a chat G p t like bot is, is helping kind of disseminate and, and gather that data.

A lot of it, right?

Yeah.

Um, find, you know, kind of where things are connected in ways that aren't inherently obvious.

So it would take a lot of work, right?

Like, oh, you know, you know, the, you know, population in this part of the country's been growing, so, you know, energy demand's going to, you know, go up by this much, but, oh, you know, here are some other factors or some things you maybe didn't consider that would actually change, you know, what would be a normal assumption or would break this model, right?

And just seeing the things that aren't as intuitive and take a lot of kind of like human critical thought and, um, analysis to kind of find that, that to me is like a positive thing.

It's like, where are we putting in so much analytical work that is.

Pretty straightforward, but requires a ton of effort, right?

To do it right.

That's where bot is just like, Hey, yep, I've got the data.

Um, I can do it way faster than you.

And you're, it's gonna, it's gonna get you to the same result, like the same kind of outputs, um, but won't require as much, um, kind of

Brett Hale: rigor, if you will.

Yeah.

And, and by the way, I can use a whole bunch of other data sets that you probably didn't even think of Exactly.

Yeah,

Taylor Lowe: exactly.

Ben Glathar: What, what are, I don't agree with either of you at all.

Taylor Lowe: Oh, dang.

All right.

This episode has taken turn off

Ben Glathar: or turn.

I agree that well, so factually like, yes.

AI chat, G B t can analyze data quicker and look at more data quicker and stuff and, and help get to some of those things.

So yes, I agree with that, but I would say that policy and politics are, are rarely fact driven.

Right.

Yeah.

And I would say that they are almost exclusively opinion.

Yeah.

And, you know, and, and driven by and, and also ul alteri or ulterior motives.

Well, and, and, and also, you know, they, they change with what, with what's going on with the, the, the, the culture, the, the, you know, depending upon what issue it is, like the global climate, the, you know, the, the, the, the sentiment of the world, right?

I'm not talking climate, you know.

Um, and, and I would say, you know, it's, it's one of these things like, you know, using energy, yeah.

When gas is super expensive, Then we become more open to, you know, going back and drilling more.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so I, I don't think that that's fact, you know, I mean, I guess it's fact driven as far as, hey, the, the price is high, but, you know, I, I think ver you know, the, the rest of it kind of gets thrown out of the window.

And, and same thing with politics and, and like, who you're gonna pick, right?

I mean, a lot of times also that is a, you know, I would say a lot of times there's not a right answer.

There's a, Hey, this is a problem that we have.

Mm-hmm.

And there's more than one way to deal with that problem.

So somebody would say, you know, something like homelessness, right?

I mean, there, there's almost.

There, there's not a right answer, right?

I mean, I, I think everyone is, or, you know, so, uh, they've tried many, many things, you know, so, so one, one person would say, Hey, here's my idea for this, and another person would say they have an idea.

Mm-hmm.

So I, I would say that there's very little facts involved in politics and policy.

Taylor Lowe: Yeah.

So I, and I agree with you and, and I want to just distinguish, it's a hot topic,

Brett Hale: by the way.

Yeah.

I'm like, chomping

Taylor Lowe: it a bit, so Really?

Yeah.

No, there's one, one statement.

One statement, and, and it's, it's just to, to back that up in that policy creation is different from policy implementation.

Right.

And, and that's just to say you can have the best, most sensible, most like, well founded idea for a policy in getting it implemented and passed and enacted.

Totally different.

Yeah, totally different.

Ben Glathar: I agree with Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brett Hale: And, and I think my point too, like obviously I think politicians create policy, they get just destroyed trying to make compromises and then it works for nobody.

Um, they, they then they, their intent on voting others down if they're, they're popular, so.

Mm-hmm.

You don't even get it to like, fully implemented by the time it gets voted down and you're left in a weird half state.

Um, you know, I think there's, it's a lot of problems with the political side of this, but I think the, the point I really want to make is if I could go to chat G b T right now and say, you know me, you're my assistant.

I've put in like all my stuff.

You've read all my, everything I have.

Mm-hmm.

I want to vote for this guy.

I.

Do they align with me?

Like what, how, how much do they actually align?

Mm-hmm.

And then if I had an output that, you know, cuz right now you can do that research.

Mm-hmm.

But I mean, if you were to do that for everybody you voted for, it would take, I mean, probably days.

Yeah.

Days and days.

Yeah.

No,

Taylor Lowe: I mean, I've done that.

Right?

Right.

Or like, I've taken the time to go through an entire ballot and the people on it and it's just like, okay, do what?

Who do I actually want to?

And it's,

Brett Hale: it's arduous.

And so like the default is I, I have a default on my ballot.

Yep.

I'm sure each of us do.

Right?

Like we're going one side or the other.

Um, I think having this information at the My Fingertips where I could say like, here are the actual places that don't align.

And then I can make a decision of like, if that's a deal breaker, not a deal breaker.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I, and I think that puts more power back in our hands.

I think once we started making those changes, the, I think policy then can be more fact driven.

Like I, I can imagine if, if somebody right now said, used whatever AI systems say, here's how we solve homelessness, 90% chance we're gonna make a huge dent into it.

It doesn't matter if that's true or not.

And I think this is your point, Ben, like if a liberal puts that over there, the conservative party's gonna be like, no, you're wrong.

Vice versa.

Mm-hmm.

So, well,

Ben Glathar: I, I'll stop you there.

That my point was that I, I don't think that you can use to, to go back to the very beginning, I, I don't think that this goods to a fact-based you ever well, to, to, to just call you, to go back to the very beginning statement that you said that where I, I said I disagree.

You're saying I think Chad G B T can help me with making more fact-based choices on this.

And that's where I disagree.

I don't think there is a fact.

Based choice.

I, I don't think you could say like, using the homelessness, I brought that up.

I don't think anybody can say, Hey, here's how to fix it.

I, I don't think any, the smartest people in the world, I, I don't think there's any study, any report, any, anything that can, that tells you how to fix homelessness.

So because that doesn't exist, how on earth do you find a factual way to fix homelessness?

Brett Hale: So, so you're saying the data set that AI would be trained on is non-existent, so how could they possibly solve the problem?

Correct.

Correct.

Ben Glathar: Gotcha.

Okay.

Yeah, and, and that, and, and I, and I guess, and, and same thing kind of with just all, you know, politics and policy stuff.

Like, I, I think a lot of this is, you know, it's, and, and I'm, I'm just saying I think it's opinion based.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And, and you know, even going into super controversial land, right?

I mean, you know, homelessness is one thing, but you know, you start looking, you know, social security, right?

And, or, or, you know, abortion or, or, or any of these super hot topic things.

They are all opinion based.

There, there is no, you know, I mean, you can mm-hmm.

It, it's there, there is not a hardcore fact

Taylor Lowe: either way.

You know what's interesting though?

And, and you just said something that, Pop this into my, my brain.

So I think about the, the homelessness, uh, issue.

You know, I think what could be maybe, and again, thinking, trying to be like upside potential, right?

Of where AI could help us here.

I think folks would, where, you know, there's so many diametrically opposed positions on something like abortion when it comes to homelessness.

I feel like that's a, that's a, that's a condition that most people feel, you know, the outcome should be the same in terms of like, homelessness is a problem, right?

Like, we don't want people to have to suffer from homelessness.

Um, I, I'm gonna

Brett Hale: push back on that.

I have heard people say, I don't care if they're homeless, I just don't wanna see 'em.

Oh,

Taylor Lowe: and, and that's fine.

So I, I, no, and so, and that's what I mean by that in terms of like the solution could be

Brett Hale: put 'em all in Texas,

Taylor Lowe: the motivation is totally different.

Right.

But the outcome would be no homelessness, right.

In your area, in your area, whether, whether you don't, Taylor,

Ben Glathar: I, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you, right?

The goal is no homeless this

Taylor Lowe: here Exactly.

In my face.

So, so I think with that, that being like the core driver, right?

Like I don't want homelessness to be near me or for people like are at all right?

You could then maybe train a bot, right?

So Ben, if you're saying that data set doesn't exist, and, and I agree with you, I don't, I don't think there's something out there.

I don't think chat G P T would be able to effectively answer that.

That question is how do we address this?

G globally, nationally, however you want to phrase it, but could you train a bot to do that?

Could you?

Because cuz there are, there are, there are ways to look around and say, Hey, in, in communities who have seen improvements around the condition of homelessness, what, what were the things that worked right And piece that together from around and, and I think this is a great opportunity to bring in like the global lens, right?

Homelessness isn't just a thing that, you know, you're dealing with in your neighborhood here in America.

Like, you know, there are people, I mean, Brett and I got a chance to go to South Africa last year and, you know, homelessness is at a completely different level.

You know what I mean?

Like mm-hmm.

The biggest house.

Exactly.

And so it's like, how do you, how could you take, take all this information and these things that you know are, are, would be hard for a team or a group or an org or like, whatever, to like really piece together a plan that you could then present and be like, this is, this is like a, a, an approach to a problem.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there's not a right answer.

I agree.

But here's an approach that we've used.

All the data that exists everywhere to help inform and, and we, and we, we want to like try this and we've used AI to help build this.

We've used AI to help, you know, make these connections.

We've helped AI to, you know, disseminate things quickly.

Um,

Brett Hale: and so, so here, let, let me, I think where you're headed is, but potentially what it does is by collecting all the information, what it can tell you with facts mm-hmm.

Is, say in areas where homelessness is low mm-hmm.

There's more investment in education there.

It's a warmer climate there, you know, whatever the case may be.

Absolutely.

And, and, and can point those facts out to you.

So then you can use those to try to come up with some, some plan to, to, uh, solve the unhoused situation.

I think it's called these days.

Yeah.

Take that.

Taylor Lowe: I'm proud of you, Brad.

Thank you.

Thank you.

But no, that's exactly what I'm getting at, right.

Is.

You know, to, I think about the organizations and the institutions that are, are built to, to really help address these issues, right?

They're chronically underfunded, they're typically like nonprofit organizations.

Um, you know, you can't really get government like, support, you know, the, the, you can, but right.

Not to a, a sufficient level.

And it's because it's, it is resources, it's time, it's energy, right?

But an AI bot y you know, for intents and purposes, and, and, and in a very, very simplified way of thinking about it, right?

It's, it's, it's free and a, it's free, free, free labor, free energy, you know, all that, that work and effort that you would need an army of people to really bring together, here's a, here's a tool that you can use to now really build effective, um, You know, approach and methods to a, to a, to an issue that people are, again, centrally feel the same way about a thing.

Right.

I think again, that's the core of it.

And, and let's let a, a, a tool, a technology bot work its way to a solution without having to, um, you know, you can raise an army of people or resources to, to make it happen.

Yeah.

Well, I

Ben Glathar: I definitely think that the AI could help.

I just don't, and, and, and I'm, I'm not trying to, like, I'm, I'm just saying like, honestly, like I don't, I don't think that it can, um, get to, I, I don't think you can get to an answer on that.

Be, and, and what also happens is because it can make a, it could make a recommendation, right.

But an easy recommendation.

Mm-hmm.

I can, I can tell you how to solve it.

Build houses for everybody.

I mean, We don't have money to do that, and that's not realistic and we can't keep it going.

But I mean, I'm just saying so, so you can have like an answer that solves it, but I'm, but to take, yeah.

I mean I, um, and, and yeah, I, I definitely think that it could help.

I'm, I'm just saying on, on the black or white.

True.

You know, almost like a true or false.

Mm-hmm.

Can it do it?

And I'm just saying, I'm saying no.

But that's all.

I mean, I'm, I, and just coming back to the thing of like, you know, and, and then there I, I come back to, I would, I would've then apply that to almost anything that would be opinion based or, or that, you know, it, it, you know, that, that is really hard.

I don't know the answer to mm-hmm.

Of, of a right or wrong answer.

Mm-hmm.

Like how do we solve some of these very complex, big.

You know, really social issues.

Yep.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, and, and I don't think that AI can get to that.

Taylor Lowe: I'm wondering, question for both of you.

What problems exists that, that we feel, everyone feels agrees is a problem, right?

No matter your political affiliation, no matter your, um, cultural background and your heritage.

Are there problems out there that you think people all feel kind of agree about that need to be fixed?

Yes.

And how, like what are those, and could AI help there?

Like what, what, what are those problems?

I'm, I'm curious,

Brett Hale: I wanna go back just a second, but to answer your question, the definition of the problem is important, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

So what is the problem we're trying to solve?

Because when we say it's homelessness, Or immigrants.

Part of the, the problem is that's not the problem, right?

Like homeless people aren't the problem.

Correct.

So what is, what is the actual outcome?

And I think that's where AI needs to be taught how to respond.

It's like given constraints.

Yeah.

I wanna solve the homelessness problem, but we can't afford to build, you know, the solution can't be building houses for everybody, right?

Yeah.

It could be part of it for sure, but there's just not enough money or, or the problem isn't just like, uh, setting the police after them every day and just clearing this area so they become someone else's problem.

Right.

Taylor Lowe: Um, yeah.

Honestly, what's the root cause, right?

Which is there's not one thing even.

Right?

And so it's, it's, it'd be an exercise of teaching it to address all the root causes of what leads people to, you know, have to be suffering from homelessness.

Right.

Yeah.

So I see your point.

Exactly, and I totally agree.

It's, it's like, what is the problem we're trying to solve?

Yeah.

And it's not just one problem.

No.

It, it looks like the, the way we experience it, it feels like a problem.

Yeah.

But it's actually multiple problems.

Brett Hale: Right.

Because you, if like, homelessness could be drugs, right?

Could be mental health.

Yep.

Could be, um, inflation.

I mean, the list goes on and on.

So if you were to say could, could be all of them.

Could be.

I mean, for sure it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

One

Ben Glathar: person, I'm sorry.

Yeah.

I, I, yeah.

I, I I mean it could be all those

Brett Hale: things in one, uh, during the pandemic.

I betcha that's a very high possibility.

Yeah.

Um, but, but take that and then say, all right, now let's get focused.

Instead of trying to make it a political, uh, broad issue, we're saying, how can we reduce the number of.

Uh, people that are homeless due to inflation.

Right?

Let's, let's start with that population first, right?

And then kind of break, try to keep breaking it down into that, that set of root problems, right?

Taylor Lowe: To start tackling.

I think even one of the conditions that you could build into a tool like that are the current pol like political landscape and, and not being, what I mean by that is, you know, what are, what are the limits of the law and what's allowed, right?

So if, you know, um, you are restricted in some way, like through zoning, like if part of your solution is we're gonna build new housing, right?

Um, you know, but you have zoning restrictions.

You know, if, if you know what those are and what you could build and what you could do, and you could, uh, the AI bot could build a, a plan around like, okay, here are the areas you could build.

This is the amount of investment you would need.

Um, these, these are the type of, you know, uh, companies that are willing to con like, construct and build.

Like, these are folks that are like contracting for these, this type of work.

And it kind of just put, put like some bones around, uh, a plan.

And then you, you kind of open that up and be like, okay, we don't need p politicians or politics or policy to get involved at all with the free market and with people who care and, and corporations who care and entities who care here is a solution and all we need are these resources.

Uh, this type of plan, this type of, you know, execution model, you know, Are folks willing to come together and make this happen?

And with, with, I think the main backing being, they're like, we've got a, a, a very trustworthy bot that has demonstrated that this is going to improve the homelessness situation by some, some significant X percent.

Right, right, right.

And just to be like, this isn't, this isn't some, somebody's, this isn't a political platform somebody's thought about.

Right.

In terms of like, you know, it's more opinion based then, right?

It's just like, oh, you've, you can approach it a different couple different ways.

No, we've put the most robust and intense form of analytics behind this to, to really increase the probability of making this outcome of a reality with these parameters and with this condition.

And if, if we've got folks that are willing to come in to, to do this, we think this outcome is likely right.

Yeah.

So,

Ben Glathar: well, and I, I hate to be this guy again, but you used a word call, you said

Taylor Lowe: trustworthy bot.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I.

Ben Glathar: Yeah.

Which I, how,

Brett Hale: how are you So distrusting, but 70% happy for the positive outcomes.

Yeah.

Taylor Lowe: Yeah.

This is so weird.

I was not expecting this.

Ben Glathar: I, I'm posi, I'm excited and happy for positive outcomes that what it can do to make our lives easier.

All right.

I'm challenging, like what it can, what it can do and be asked to do in a nonfactual.

Mm-hmm.

You know, zero in one world.

And, and I'm just saying, so like, again, you know, and, and I did, I keyed in then I'm like, you're, you know, a trustworthy bot.

Like what makes it a trustworthy bot?

Like, honestly, if you know, and, and, and you think about like, Putting information, you know, as it gathers information.

And again, I would say, and based on everything you said, the most information then wins.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So if you're saying, you know, if, if you're making a statement of, hey, like it goes out and it finds all the information about, you know, to keep to this theme of how to help homelessness, right?

Mm-hmm.

It's going to be all the people mm-hmm.

That have provided information on how to.

Overcome this homelessness problem everywhere.

And that's what it's going to use to get to a data set to make a recommendation on how to help.

That's

Brett Hale: not necessarily true though.

And, and I think that's like where the AI technology is really shines is mm-hmm.

It, it, it will take information in there mm-hmm.

But it's also really good at taking all the facts that related or unrelated and using that to be able to generate some sort of response.

Okay.

So agree with what you're saying.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Um, if you're asking it to make some sort of judgment call Yeah.

Versus, versus help me understand what all the areas with high homeless rates have in common or mm-hmm.

Or things that they don't Yeah.

Something like that.

So, and I think that goes back to the problem definition piece, but

Ben Glathar: I, I agree with that and I, and I would say, and, and probably, you know, and, and then the, the fear is of course, and this is, you know, the other, um, And, and it might get, you know, of course it, it, it could easily get to this is then you start, when you start asking it to make, or, or how do you, how do you program it to make judgment calls?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, that starts to get, that starts to get very scary.

Yeah.

Yep.

And that's where the whole beginning, like, and I, I feel like I took us down a deep rabbit hole, but I was just trying to challenge some of the ability to gather factual data.

Yeah.

And, and then I guess what I, and, and to say this out loud and think about a kind of funny, but a, a Netflix type of, uh, scenario.

And what I mean by that is like Netflix, you know, it goes through and you watch shows and it's like, Hey, here's other shows like this.

Let me make a recommendation on that.

So if you're thinking, Hey, can ai, um, You know, take, take, take my opinion.

You know, you, you use, you said this, you know, like it's, you've been my assistant for so long.

Yeah.

And let me, let me take all these things and here's a, here's something else that I think you'll like about it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, do I think it could do it in like a Netflix, you know, mu or video or, or maybe music suggested or Instagram or whatev, you know, we could go down the list.

Yes.

I do think it could help make a suggestion, but to take it to the part of, Hey, I'm going to let it tell me who I should vote for and, and help it and have it help make social policy seems terrifying to me.

You, you're

Brett Hale: saying, you, you're letting it make that decision.

Is the terrifying part.

Not, not using its output to like interpret in you, you

Taylor Lowe: like form a decision, but

Ben Glathar: to make it, you can, you can use it and have it be a tool.

You just, and, and again, I, I'll just go back to, and that's where I just raised my hand and I said, I disagreed where you, you said, Hey, I, I'm going to ask it who I should vote for.

And I think that would be great to, cuz it'll tell me.

And then, you know, and then, and then you brought up the thing that, you know, policy is, is done in factual and stuff.

And I was just saying I disagree that I don't think it can be that.

Yeah.

Cut and dry.

And I know I've taken us down a really deep rabbit hole, but just saying like that's um, can it be a tool that can help for that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I don't think it, I don't think it, and, and again, and I referenced, I would like to see what we can have it come up with.

Like, like figure out some opinions or, you know, some things that are, I, I guess some, some things that it's hard to get a factual answer on.

Yeah.

And see what comes out.

So

Brett Hale: you would say, if, if this was the Netflix recommendation engine mm-hmm.

You would never say, Hey, play the next show you think I'd like, because actually my kid just watched a bunch of cartoons on it and now I'm watching Bluey for three weeks to get it out of my, my queue.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

Alright.

Ben Glathar: Or well, or, or, or, and, and at the same time and, and kind of like what I, you know, oh man, I just shut up and I, you know, at the same time, like, like things change.

Yeah.

I mean, and even with

Brett Hale: Netflix, I do like blue

Ben Glathar: though, honestly.

You, you go down a comedy road and then you, you know, I think I'm gonna watch this.

Oh man.

I've, I've heard a lot of people talk about this documentary, you know, that's like the polar opposite of a, of a, of a comedy, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, Um, you know, things change, mood changes, and then also, you know, talking about like politics and or, or policy or, or just actually anything.

I mean it, how, how much what's going on in your world changes.

Brett Hale: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I, I totally view that as how can we use that to make my life easier, whether it's voting or, or whatever the case may be.

Like, and I That's what you said, right?

Like make, how can it help it make things easier?

Yes.

So that's, that's what I, when I'm talking about solving my problems, it's not making a decision for me for sure, but like making it easier for me to have the information that's relevant.

Mm-hmm.

Versus weeding through all the bs.

It kind

Taylor Lowe: of brings up the question of, And, and, and we've been talking about it in, in, in these different contexts.

And Brett, you just said it, how can it help me versus how can it help society?

Right.

Right.

Whereas like you, I think there's a lot of, that's a.

Very

Brett Hale: different motivation,

Taylor Lowe: huh?

Totally.

Oh yeah.

Right.

And I think, and I think May, and I don't know if it's the right way to categorize it as like the, the danger, but like, because it, I, because I know it hits every indivi individual person.

An algorithm like Instagram knows you better than, you know, you might know yourself and you can get lost in those holes because it, it knows all those habits and patterns.

And so when you were to, if you were to turn AI inward, right, like it's gonna help you and it's gonna, it's gonna feed onto your behaviors, your habits.

I think generally it's how we feel about it.

Cuz that's what's happening now, right?

Whereas when you pivot that to here is an issue that's affecting millions of people in different ways with different drivers and you know, different outcomes, how can you take all that stuff and output some things that are going to.

And this gets into ethics, but it's like, how can you, how can you take that input and actually, you know, create some recommendations, some approaches that would improve the conditions of you would like to say everybody, the ethical piece of it is do, are you trying to do it for everybody?

Are you trying to do it for a certain group?

Are you trying to, and, and so I'm, I'm in a, I'm in a loop there with like Earl Pickle.

Yeah, that's a very pickle.

Like,

Brett Hale: so let me, let me bring us back then to the positive sides and give Ben a chance to redeem himself, uh, for all his, his 30% negativity last chance, Ben.

But honestly, what, what are some things you're excited about?

I know you've mentioned some before.

I think you mentioned one on the last show.

Ben Glathar: Yeah.

I, um, now what, what I think some of the things I'm really excited for are to make some of the, um, you know, when it, when it comes down to it is make some of these, uh, Arduous tasks, right?

That are like, so, oh my gosh, mind numbing.

Can it, can it start to do some of those and automate some of those for you?

And, and that could be easy, you know, like that, that could be anything like just going through and, and, and, and we see some of this already, like helping with, Hey, we just all got done doing our taxes, right?

Yeah.

Can, can it help go through and, and assign some of those numbers correctly and, and go through quickly and, and do some of that fantastic.

Right.

Um, you know, from a business sense, right?

And, and they've been kind of using some of this for a while, like some of those chat bots and really, uh, automate a lot of like customer service experience, right?

Hey, I, I need to return this item.

Tell me, give me a, a easy bullet point list of what to do, what do I need to do?

You know?

Right.

Simple things like that that I think most humans are.

Or most of us have, have experienced some level.

Yeah.

Humans.

Some, most of us have experienced something like that.

Fantastic.

Right.

That's, yeah.

But, um, man, and, and then, you know, and what's funny is, I'm gonna come back to this, but I feel like, and I, I use that to net to, to use the algorithm of, of Instagram or Netflix or whatever you want to call to apply that to my life.

Um, if I can trust it.

Sounds fan freaking.

Mm-hmm.

There are, there's so many different entertainment.

Oh my god.

Restaurant.

Like all these choices.

That's true.

So, and man, I don't know about you guys, but I mean, Netflix is pretty good.

Like, I mean I, you know, like, and I mentioned this earlier, right?

I mean, there's different moods, right?

So that, that can be hard.

Um, like, you know, for, for, but I mean, yeah, I mean, if, if there's something that you like, I mean, it, it gives you suggestion of, of, you know, let's say 10 shows to watch, seven of 'em are entertaining.

I mean, it, it's better than 50%.

Mm-hmm.

So to, so to think about applying that to all, you know, heck vacation spots, right?

Mm-hmm.

What to do on the weekend restaurant, you know, you just keep going.

Um, what, what new music to listen to.

Mm-hmm.

And instead of just always having my same voice back at me, but kind of go through.

So, um, and I mean, I, you know, I, I think there's also, uh, you know, that, that's like some kind of practical

Brett Hale: things.

Yeah.

I have to say this cuz I, you, you said to make your everyday life.

It's like, wake up at five 30, have a beer, bleeeep, take a nap, eat it.

Donut.

Like, you're like, this is my best life.

Thanks.

Right.

I mean, that's what the Facebook algorithm would give you, right?

You'd be like, ah, this is great.

Meanwhile, your wife's ready to divorce

Taylor Lowe: you.

Oh my gosh.

Brett Hale: Oh my gosh.

Think it, I, I mean, it it, it is funny to think about cuz, cuz now you're in a household and say it's just you and your, your wife or your partner and, and now you have two algorithms telling you exactly what you want.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, meshing that with somebody else at the same time then becomes a problem.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that then you need AI to say like, oh, and go, you know, interface with this other person's assistant so we can mm-hmm.

Make sure we're still talking at the end of the day,

Taylor Lowe: which is not something I feel is, or has ever been a focus of, you know, technology and social connection.

Right, right.

Yeah.

It's always been like, we want to me, me, me, we want to draw you in and if there are people around you, we only care about connecting you to them if it's gonna help us keep you here on, on the platform or using the thing.

So that would, that's almost like new, new territory.

I feel,

Brett Hale: you know, that could be a very easy chat g p t app as like, what are things I can do for my wife this week?

Taylor Lowe: It'd be an, it's an interesting thought for the application of ai, right?

Where I think a lot of our discussion around this topic has been, you know, let's not lose humanity, you know, and as we're, you know, diving headfirst into this new age of technology and advancement, um, And, and that there's probably upside there, right?

Like there's probably ways that we can begin to integrate this.

And honestly, you probably should cuz it's not going away.

Yeah.

So instead of maybe fighting it or resisting it, it's, it's where you would really want to have some thought around how can this be a tool that helps us be more human with not just like, you know, in terms of like feeling it yourself, but connecting with others too.

Brett Hale: With your, instead of pulling us apart, it's pushing

Taylor Lowe: us together.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

So

Ben Glathar: I'm gonna add another interesting, um, and, and I, well, and I don't know how you guys feel about this.

I'd love to get your opinions, but I was thinking also from a artistic point of view.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I'm not very, I, I don't feel like I'm very creative or, or artistic at all a song.

Hey, I can, I can get to hear.

Mm-hmm.

I can't bring in.

Drums or piano or you know, I don't, whatever that would be.

Right.

I mean, you know, I see a huge benefit is that it could help open the cre creativity door for people.

Yeah.

And let them, let them out and create more.

Mm-hmm.

Which is ultimately adding, you know, more culture.

You know, it, it frees up a different part of your brain or stuff.

I, I think how, how awesome

Taylor Lowe: that could be.

I think that's, I think that's one of the best positives you brought up.

And, and I think it's so last show you brought up something similar, right?

I think it was, it was the bear example you just said, you know, if I can draw that outline of a bear, but I can't do fur or can a do it, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I, and what we, what we, where we went was, oh, what's copyright law?

Like, who does the art belong to?

Right.

And that's, that's like, I think the default place for people to go right now.

Yeah.

But if you squash all that and just look at the shit, that person just became more creative.

They were able to express themselves in a way without, you know, you know, that they're limited in some sense.

It's not, it's actually facilitating.

Something beautiful, something important to that person.

Um, I think the other example you had was, Hey, if I can sing, but I can't play a damn instrument and I don't, I don't know who around me or where I'm gonna get that.

If I can have AI help create the sound that I want, but I provide the voice, like that's a, that's a cool thing.

That's a awesome idea.

Um, and, and why wouldn't you want someone to be able to express themself that way?

Um, knowing, I mean, copyright and legal things, that, that's gonna be there all the time.

But like at the core of it is, is can you be more expressive?

Can you be more of you with some help?

Right.

So I think that's a great, great point, Ben.

Ben Glathar: Yeah.

And I, I'm sorry I played both sides of that.

I played, played it as a negative last time, but, but I, today I'm more bringing about like just the person.

Yeah, yeah.

Like just to be more

Brett Hale: connected.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna attack it from a slightly different lens.

Given we just said AI pulling people apart versus pushing together, and this feels.

Uh, like a moment where you're actually starting to pull people apart again.

And I'm not saying it's not a good thing, cuz I think it's fantastic, but now I'm like, Hey, I, I have, I'm sitting in my basement and be like, I'm gonna do a podcast with three of my buddies.

AI one, AI two, and AI three.

Mm-hmm.

And, and now we're gonna have a podcast and I can do what I want versus maybe reaching out to somebody that I, that I know mm-hmm.

Wants to podcast or has done it before and saying, Hey, I was thinking about how to do this.

Can mm-hmm.

Can we connect over podcasting?

So it, you, I mean this is to truly like a, a weird yin and yang moment in my head where it's like positive as just as much, I don't know if it's negative, but there's, there's truly a, a d a different side to it.

It's

Taylor Lowe: a double edged sword.

Well, I'd like to ask

Ben Glathar: Taylor.

So Ta I mean, yeah.

Taylor, don't you think.

Oh, I, I was putting words in your mouth leading the witness.

I totally was.

I totally was.

You know, Taylor, I mean, you know, I would wonder, tell me about your experience with, and, and just because you said you use Instagram mm-hmm.

I mean, I would like to hear about your experience with Instagram and how that either does connect you or keeps you away from people.

Taylor Lowe: Yeah.

So I view it as something that honestly keeps me away from people.

I use it as a thing kind of like when I'm bored.

Um, I, I love Star Wars and I love fitness.

Right?

And so, like, it pushes me that stuff constantly.

But when I'm, when I'm in the gram, I'm not really.

The way I use it is not to be like, I, I want to connect with this fitness coach.

Right?

Like, or I'm really curious about what, like, you know, are some new techniques I can use in the gym.

Um, I'm, I'm, you know, somewhat, I care about like, the latest news and developments for Star Wars, right?

They're making movies and shows all the times, but I, I can get that anywhere, right?

So, and, and I, I don't use that to like reach out or connect with other people.

It's, it's a place that I go to kind of like escape and just like hide away.

Um, I, and I know that's, so that's my experience and I do want to like, acknowledge the, the flip side of it.

And my partner's really good about this.

She uses it for the exact opposite.

She's just like, um, I have so many friends that don't live where I'm at, but are doing really cool things.

And I share that on Instagram.

And she uses it as a communication tool.

So like, she's got a friend that's opening a restaurant across the country, she's reaching out and says, Hey, this is awesome.

This is cool.

See that you're doing this.

Um, and then, you know, they connect that way and they're keeping up with each other.

And, and so it is facilitating the connection.

Is it gonna push or is it gonna pull?

It's gonna do both.

Right?

Um, and, and how, and, and, and like, why are gonna be different, right?

Um, so I, it is, it's weird, right?

There's no, there's no perfect way, I think to really do this.

Like the full circle back to unintended consequences.

Um, those are gonna be a thing, right?

You're gonna have the best intentions maybe, uh, with pushing out something like a, like a chat, G p T will it actually, um, manifest your intentions?

And even if it does, what, what are the other things that could happen

Ben Glathar: really is up to how the individual, mm-hmm.

Interfaces with

Taylor Lowe: it Yep.

Ben Glathar: And uses it to, to tell whe whether it's going to be, um, you know, whether it's gonna connect you to other people or pull you away from other, from people.

Mm-hmm.

And, and quite frankly, not necessarily those things are bad.

E even, you know, if, if you have a healthy relationship with people and you're, you're out, you know, to, to pull away for an hour isn't bad.

Yeah, true.

So true.

And, and yeah, there can be true too, right?

Yeah.

I mean, if you're kind of a, an introverted person at work and then you get done with work and you use your term that I have never heard before in the gram, and you're going to use that to connect with people.

Brett Hale: Oh, poor grandpa.

Ben Glathar: Sorry, then.

Taylor Lowe: Oh my goodness.

Then,

Ben Glathar: uh, this shit was explicit.

Yeah.

Taylor Lowe: Two e's on this one,

Ben Glathar: but, uh, but no, I mean, right.

I mean, you know, seriously, like you, you can, so it goes either

Taylor Lowe: way.

It does.

Yeah.

And, and honestly it's never gonna be the same even cuz I'll, and, and what, I'll just fold into my little, little spiel.

There was my partner, she does use to connect, but all too often she'll be on their way longer than she intended because she got trapped, like on something else.

Right.

So it, again, there's no, it's never gonna be just one thing or one way.

Brett, what is your,

Ben Glathar: uh, what positives do you see from

Brett Hale: AI?

Positives?

I, I'm really excited about the educational side of this.

Mm-hmm.

Um, to be perfectly honest, cuz I think.

Ex

Ben Glathar: expand?

What do you mean?

Like to teach us stuff?

Or, or like, or university, like, I don't, I don't

Brett Hale: know what you mean.

All of the above.

And, and so I can tell you a little bit about myself is, you know, love DIY stuff.

I used to go buy manuals for cars or wherever I could find information and go find those to figure out how to mess around with stuff.

One of the things very early on, I liked messing around with electronics, taking stuff apart, putting it together.

But there wasn't really a good source of, of diy just playing around with electronics, go to the library.

I could read stuff, but it was really hard to find.

So Google was a godsend for me to find information.

Uh, kind of allowed me to do a lot of different things and innovate with electronics, you know, just, and I say innovate very lightly, but YouTube even better.

I can see it.

I'm a visual person.

I can copy it.

I can do whatever I want, if I want to do it.

Like that's how I learn.

And the public school system isn't really set up to, to be optimized to, to let everybody learn the way that they're Totally, they need to be learning.

Totally.

And I think AI can really help that side of things.

Hmm.

By being able to put, maybe pull together multiple types of curriculum mm-hmm.

Based on the student, the student's behaviors, the students like feedback.

They're given the systems of what really makes them learn.

And so, you know, maybe a, a classroom becomes less about, here's here's a math classroom, here's the specific curriculum.

But you're in here with, with other students learning similar things, but you all have a more tailored learning experience that's gonna really.

Like, be what you want it to be.

So some kids will be farther along, some kids won't, that's fine.

It could be English, all of it.

And uh, that's exciting to me.

Like I honestly think that could be a, a huge game changer for schools if, if done properly.

Hmm.

That's a really

Taylor Lowe: good one.

I like that one a lot.

Thank you.

Brett Hale: Yeah, I can give you a great, uh, just personal story around that too.

It's, uh, my son has a, a gene disorder.

Um, it's a gene mutation actually, and it manifests as chronic pain.

He's been going through this for, for many years, and the first several years going to doctors, they had no idea what was going on.

It is such a rare gene mutation that very few people had even studied about it, for example.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so I can imagine a world where, you know, the first doctor's visit, if you know all the symptoms, even though it's rare, it's right there on the screen so you can kind of check things off.

In a very logical way that says it's not any of these, but that leaves this really rare one.

I don't know enough about that.

So I'm gonna send them to somebody that does.

Mm-hmm.

So to that could have probably shortened his.

His diagnosis from one year, two years, whatever it was.

Yeah.

To one visit.

Mm-hmm.

Which is awesome.

Yeah.

That's a

Taylor Lowe: really good point too, because the, the way, and I am not at all a doctor, um, but from Doctor of Love, that's different.

Okay.

Right.

We're gonna keep this show explicit.

We are, we can dive deeper, but, uh, you know, from the folks that I do know who are, are doctors in, in the medical fields, a lot of, um, you know, the way me medication works and um, you know, prescription works, it's like trial and error.

Yeah.

It's like we're gonna start you at this dosage and on this combination of meds, see how you do.

Yeah.

Um, and we'll tweak it from there.

Like we'll go up, we'll go down, but it does not like it's a science, but it's less of a, of a like defined science.

Right?

Yeah.

Everyone's different.

And so again, I think your point is solid where it's like you could probably have a tool or something in this sphere that says, Of all the cases we've seen of people that have been diagnosed with this or, you know, with these symptoms, whatever it is, um, these are like the things that, the medications, the dosages that have worked best or where to start, like taking all these different parameters and being like, Hey, for people that look similar to this.

Condition.

This is what this is, this is it.

Start, this is what works.

Or start here.

Start Exactly.

Or at least start here.

You get a better starting point at that

Brett Hale: point.

So my, my son has, we still don't have like a solid medicine regimen that that helps his pain enough.

And he's very sensitive to medicine changes.

Mm-hmm.

So we have like these long periods where we have to ramp it up slowly, and then if that doesn't work, um, then we have to, to wean him off really slowly.

Mm-hmm.

And so it's been years of medicine changes and so For sure that could, that could help for sure.

The, the last show we talked about, uh, picking a coalition to help us navigate, um, this world in ai in response to the letter that, that all the leaders signed to slow down the.

Uh, productionization of AI models to, to get some safeguards in place.

So we thought it would be good to, to pick a coalition and, uh, to help us navigate through these crazy times.

So, uh, Taylor, would you like to, to kick

Taylor Lowe: us off here?

I'd be, I'd be happy to.

I started trying to think of like, who are famous figures.

I know people who I think like represent values that, um, I could bring into the coalition had to squash that quick because you just don't know the people that you see on TV or that you hear in the news, uh, or being like, you know, really, like people are gonna have their own opinions on those folks, right?

So I stepped back and I was like, all right, well let's just stick with the values.

Like, let's just stick with who do I, like, what do I want represented on this coalition?

Um, I have five people.

I have five representatives.

Okay.

And the best way that I could do this for our listeners to like chime in, like, like really connect maybe, um, it, and it's not for all of them, but I tried to pick like movie and TV characters, right?

That kind of embody that representation.

Um, again, not all, so it'll be a mix of real people and fake people.

But here, here's the coalition.

Um, so the first one was I wanted the youngest developer at open ai.

Um, and I wanted that person to bring in the angles of, okay, what is, what is actually possible, right?

If chat g p t is kind of the leading edge of the technology, I want someone on the col coalition who actually knows what's like technically possible and how it gets

Brett Hale: there.

Yo youngest in terms of age or experience?

Age,

Taylor Lowe: okay.

And, and the reason for that, that's the other kind of angle I had with this role is I wanted someone with a generational aspect of.

Hey, there's lots of life ahead of me.

I want to make sure that it's gonna be good.

Right?

So that, that was the first kind of thought that came to mind.

Person number two, um, was a global economic, uh, economist, uh, global economist.

Um, I wanted that person to bring the angle of this is how the world works right now, right?

Like, okay, if we have someone, if the chat G p t developer is gonna be, here's what's possible.

We need to know what's possible today, right?

In the world.

And kind of how it's heading and how it's put together.

Um, and not just from like an American perspective, you know, like a truly global economist.

Yeah.

The person I think about this, um, only Brett's gonna be able to appreciate this, and he's a real person.

But I thought of our economics professor.

Dr.

Zoo, Keno.

When Brett and I were getting our MBAs together, and he was, he was just a super cool guy.

He was very down to earth, um, very wise about how things worked around the world.

But you can just tell the dude he is not like, He's not like a, a money hungry guy.

Like he's teaching a, a college, you know, Saturday afternoon class.

Um, you know, I I, I'm not sure if he was even retired or not, or you know, but you can just tell he is just a chill dude that knows and is, has just like a genuine curiosity how the world works.

So he was my, my second one as like the global economist three, um, was a social psychologist or philosopher.

Um, this is a real person.

Um, his name is Jonathan Ha.

Um, he, um, has, I actually got introduced to him also through school, some of his work.

Um, but he, uh, does a lot of work around like what makes people happy.

Um, he's also done some work around the tragedy of commons.

Uh, you know, something that Brett and I have brought, brought up on the show many times on, you know, how do people with different motivations and understandings and languages coexist essentially.

So I thought he was a great one.

Uh, four criminal psychologist.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, I wanted to, so it, I have here on the list it's criminal psychologist or cyber criminal slash hacker.

I, I still think I lean towards the criminal psychologist, um, just because I want someone who can essentially bring the bad guy angle, right?

Like, so even with the chat G P T developer being like, this is what's possible.

I want someone on the, on the committee to be like, this is how it, like, okay, this is really what can be done with it.

Right?

Yeah.

The person I thought for that was Clarice Starling from Silence of the Lambs.

Yeah.

Very cool.

You know, and she was an FBI agent, so not necessarily a psychologist, but that vibe, you know, where she's just me, Taylor.

Yeah.

And

Brett Hale: the Lamb's still crying.

Taylor Lowe: Yeah.

Um, she, she was a, yeah, she was, you know, like she know she gets it, right.

She, she isn't a criminal, but she knows the mind of one.

Right?

Yeah.

Um, and then my last person on the committee was someone who would, BR was an international human right worker.

And I don't actually have a, um, Like a, uh, a person for this, like a, a a TV example or anything like that.

But I wanted someone that could really bring, um, the perspective of what is, is as best as possible, the common man, woman from around the world, right?

Like, not just the American perspective, but hey, here are the things that really you see in the, in human society, like around the world, right?

Just like what makes people, people.

So I wanted that on the committee.

Um, love it.

Yeah.

Few, couple things.

Few last things.

I thought a lot about this.

Yeah, yeah.

But I have some disqualifiers, um, and conditions for being on the committee.

So the first is no overlapping demographics, meaning none of the five can.

And, and, and I say this like I've picked some people, but really the idea is I want the themes of those people on the committee.

So like, you know, you know, it doesn't have to be them, but I wanted the, their themes.

Um, so no overlapping demographics being like, There can be no overlap or same race, heritage, gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, home country.

And it sounds extreme, but like five people around the world like to fit in these.

Like, it's, it's my coalition and that's how it's gotta be.

Super diverse crew.

Absolutely.

And then I'll also, nobody from the top 2% of wealth holders and no political figures and that, that is my committee and how I would structure it.

Brett Hale: Interesting.

All right.

Yeah.

What, um, why, what was the, the thought behind no political figures as a disqualifier Couldn't

Taylor Lowe: trust them.

Yeah.

I can't trust, I mean, even like the, the, the politicians that you feel really get it and connect, you connect with personally or you just can't trust their motives.

And it's almost like they're, they're too corrupted one way or the other.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Um, it is the way I felt like the, the, the motivations and the intentions.

To, to actually enact, you know, a, a pol like not maybe a policy, whatever it is.

Right.

Whatever's gonna come outta the coalition.

There's, there's gonna be other motivations behind a politician, I feel.

And so that's why I had to cross them off my list, even if they have the best of intentions.

I just, the fact that you're on, someone's gonna say, I don't like that.

I don't like him or her or that person.

Yeah.

And it's going to, I don't know that that's kind of where I landed.

I just, I couldn't really feel they would bring their authentic, altruistic self to the table.

Yeah.

Brett Hale: That makes sense.

Call it the mc hammer rule.

Yeah.

Can't trust us.

Yep.

All right.

Taylor Lowe: I saw exactly where you're going.

Yeah, that's exactly it.

Yeah, Ben.

Okay.

What,

Brett Hale: what

Taylor Lowe: you got going on?

Ben Glathar: Um, I love your list and I feel like there was a lot of good thought there.

Um, I put a lot of thought into mine, but mine is definitely a little bit more lighthearted than you were.

This,

Taylor Lowe: I've had a lot of time on my hands recently, so No, no, no, you're good.

You're good.

Ben Glathar: And but, but actually it all ties in together.

So what, what's funny is my, my very first person that I would put on the list, um, I was trying to think of the most universally accepted artist.

Ah, and I did all modern day stuff.

So I came up with Taylor Swift, nice.

Swift, and, and this is kind of funny, but I was like, man, like she writes her own music, this and that, and I, and I think she, I, I don't think she's super decisive, right?

Yeah.

Like, I, I don't think, you know, it's not like, you know, one group likes her or hates her or whatever.

I, I think she's univer and, and I think she's very talented and stuff.

So I really wanted a artist on the board to be able to give their input about ai.

Right?

Love that I, and.

You get in the weeds, but you know, she's, she's just a, an artist there, um, you know, a next person that goes against your grain.

But man, I, I definitely, um, I think there has to be somebody like this on the board is, uh, Jamie Diamond.

Mm.

Who is a JP Morgan Chase ceo.

Yep.

And, you know, like him or not, he, um, has done a good job of, you know, leading a, a probably one of the world's largest financial institutions.

And, and one of the things that I really like about him is he kind of speaks his mind.

And like, I've heard him like, talk out about like cryptocurrency and some of those things and, you know, kind of be like, you know, this isn't real.

Like, let's talk about real things.

Mm-hmm.

So I, I think you, you know, to, to have somebody from, from that input, I, he, the, my next person on my list was somebody.

That actually is to help, um, keep it in line.

And so Uhoh, I, uh, yeah, no.

Well, Hulk Hogan.

Yeah, but you, you've gotta, you've gotta follow with me here, here.

So, so, uh, Mars Pet Food Alright.

Is the largest pet food company in the world.

Okay?

And so, one of the things that scares me a lot about AI is that we will treat ai.

Due to ai, what a lot of times we do to our pets Hmm.

And our to, you know, so we will, you know, we, we'd look at our pets or something, right?

And we would say, oh, you know, there, our, our dog is hungry, or it's this or that, that, those are easy things, right?

You know, you, you take it out, but then all of a sudden you start putting, um, you know, you start putting human emotions on them.

Mm-hmm.

Or we put human emotions on our things and, and, you know, and, and Hect Taylor even brought this up.

Like, start trusting the bot.

Well, you know, it's, it's really just giving you information, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, I am very confident that all these pet food people, all they do is try to make us think that our pets are people.

Hmm.

And that we have to spend, you know, so I.

Kind of a funny way to look at it.

So I, I want to, you know, I love this.

Brett Hale: I like this just we have, you're saying pet food people, it's like the new category

Ben Glathar: of Well, you and, and I came up with that from like, you know, you think about how much money we spend on our pets every year.

Yeah.

And, and where that's gone, and how that market has just grown because we have, you know, put, put all this on our, our animals.

So that was, that was my, uh, third

Taylor Lowe: person shout out to all the pet food people listeners out there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We need

Ben Glathar: you.

I know.

Well, and, and just to, and, and maybe say like, Hey guys, like, let's not, you know, let's not humanize this too much.

And then my last person, um, and, and I don't know, Uh, I would like a, um, you know, a, a spiritual person involved, and I don't know how I, I, I struggled with this one.

Like, I don't know how to bring in somebody that, um, that kind of oversee, you know, that, that, that is able to, to bring in something.

You know, I, I don't want to just, you know, um, I, I don't wanna just say, Hey, a, a a, a religious leader from here, or a, you know, or, or, or even a, a somebody that, you know, like a Buddhist or, you know, meditation or something.

But I definitely think that if you're going to have a coalition that's going to talk about ai, then I would want somebody to come in with a, you know, that has strong tie to, you know, ethics and spirituality and talk about some of this stuff.

To, to say that, Hey, there, there is more here than just.

You know, zeros and ones that we're programming we're going to be affecting people's lives,

Brett Hale: so that's awesome.

Yeah, totally got some things that I missed on here.

I love the spiritual angle, um, in Taylor.

Like the diversity thing I think is, is important.

Um, for sure.

Um, my list, so you're gonna love this.

Okay.

Dr.

Zuc?

Yep.

First on the list.

Yep.

I think that's a shoe win.

Global, global economics, uh, professor.

Um, yeah, same reasons.

I, I just wanted somebody that could represent the financial side on a, on a global scale.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and think about this from different angles and I, I felt like he brought a real, uh, non-political skewed, um, opinion.

Um, that was based on a lot of objectivity.

So I totally, it's one of the reasons I loved him.

Um, yeah, so my second person that I, that I brought in, you know, um, they're, they're dead.

So that, that's my twist right now.

It's gonna be tough to

Taylor Lowe: get that one on, but, okay.

Brett Hale: And, you know, this was also influenced by, um, our, our nba, or specifically our trip to South Africa, but Nelson Mandela's coming with me.

Yep, yep.

Um, and the reason I chose him were, were a lot of reasons, but he just faced so much adversity.

Uh, he, he was committed to the vision of, of changing society.

Um, but more than anything, like, uh, I don't know in history if we've ever seen like two sides that were so opposed, have to come together so quickly mm-hmm.

In apartheid.

I mean, not that it's in the best shape today, but that's an incredible feat.

Um, and so, I'm also thinking he was in prison for 27 years.

Yep.

So, yep.

Uh, if this is a long fight Yep.

Yeah.

He knows.

Yeah.

He's gonna cut you if stuff goes wrong.

Taylor Lowe: He almost made my list and I, I thought hard about the no politicians rule.

Yeah.

And he was the one that gave you the most consternation, so I love that pick.

Yeah.

Brett Hale: Uh, third, and going against the, uh, mc hammer rule here is, uh, I chose, I wanted a politician.

I didn't really look at Nelson Mandela as one, uh, necessarily, but, uh, I.

I, I wanted somebody that would have global connections mm-hmm.

To, to open doors.

Mm-hmm.

And that is strictly the role that I wanted them to play.

Um, you know, I, I think to, to make this work, you're gonna have to, to get through some power dynamics that exist out there.

That's fair.

Um, I, I, it was really hard for me to narrow this one down, but I, I was going US presidents, and really the only one I think I can choose out of that group is Barack right now, to be perfectly honest.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, he's, he had charisma in the role.

Um, and so that, that's why I went with him.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then the last one that I have only had four was, um, and this is, this is kind of more of a theme than anything, but I wanted somebody that was really trying to represent society from an, an empirical perspective.

Yeah.

And so Dana Boyd and, and I believe she works with Microsoft a bit now as a consultant.

Um, but she started a company, um, that was, uh, called Data in Society.

She has this listed on her LinkedIn profile quote, recognizing the need to better understand how data-driven technologies were shaping broader social issues.

She founded the Research Institute.

Mm.

Um, so, uh, I thought that was a, a good choice to, to represent that world.

And I, I, I was thinking, I almost steered away from any technical person.

Hmm.

Together, and, and I brought her in just from the data and society perspective when, when I came across her profile.

But, but the reason being is I wanted these people to not be solving a technical problem.

Right.

And I think a lot of the people out there in the tech space right now are too focused on technology and less about the social aspect of things.

So I figured my crew's gonna go out there and they should be very strong at finding the ES experts that they need to make decisions.

That's fair.

And pulling that information together.

So, uh, that's my coalition.

Let's go.

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Take care folks.

Taylor Lowe: Let's go.