Welcome to the To podcast.

I'm Garrett Ryan, and My I guess today is Doctor.

Fed Nic.

This as professor and, At Of Naples Fed the second.

Dr Nikola Lard.

Thanks for joining us.

Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here with your state.

Oh, likewise.

Doctor Works on the famous her palladium scrolls, eva of highly carbon by disruption of In 79 Ad d.

Since last year she been involved with the V challenge.

A project that's using machine learning to virtually un ramp and read the scrolls.

We'll, discuss the very exciting results of the challenge shortly.

But first, a bit of background.

Frame we're not familiar with the scrolls.

Could you tell us a bit about, how and where the her scrolls were discovered.

So the claims scrolls were found in seaside Villa, Luxurious villa in the bay of Naples in, the ancient city where.

And, actually, the excavation were not systematic archaeological excavation as the ones we have today.

We can see today.

It was was more like a recovery of ancient marble, ancient statues and findings from the ground.

The things were coming from wells pertaining to farm workers, people leading in the ancient in the in the modern city of Regina.

So the ancient city claim.

So it was more like, an exploration, And the the Vip pap pd, in particular was found for first time in 17 50.

And the first pap expiry were far found in 10/19/1752.

It is also a very interesting to...

Think about where precisely in the villa this growth were found because the discoveries...

So the findings, the findings happened in different places in Villa.

Some of the pap papaya were found in the reception rooms of the the Venus so between the 2 pairs styles.

So in this room lead by the light coming from the 2 paris styles, but most of those scrolls, most of the library, was actually found in a very small room internal room styles in the Villa, which was probably, like a storage room where all the books were kept, and it's also interesting that some of the pap pie, some of the scrolls were found in boxes, because this can mean that there was a a very living activity, and so the there was a dynamic situation in in the Villa where the pap papaya were moved from 1 place to another.

We have to think that it was not very comfortable to read this scrolls in a small room, which was not where the light was not coming from from the...

External parts of the Villa.

So, it is interesting to think that there were people moving these scrolls from the most internal rooms of the library to the res reception room to be able to read them.

And so probably the boxes were used for that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Very interesting.

I know that the the villa has only been partially even today, and we'll talk more about possibilities is what might lie within the still buried segments later.

So to date, how many controls have been opened and how many remain unopened?

The Yeah.

This is a difficult question.

Actually, because we don't have a precise number of straws.

Housed in the library of the Villa pd.

This is caused...

This is due to fragmentation of the scrolls because many of the scrolls broke up during the eruption or even later when they were discovered or during the, attempt to open them.

We can say that D collection includes more than 1800 inventory numbers, which doesn't mean 08/01/1800 event scrolls in the whole collection.

Probably, originally, the library house somewhere between 801000 cro, 1 1000 books, and if we if we look at the inventory numbers, right now, over 600 referred to unopened material, and more than 100 referred to material for which in, an opening was attempted, but then interrupted because situation was probably too difficult, and the results were not particularly promising, So we still have a lot of material.

We have this, big wooden drawers, very fascinating actually.

In the Op opportunity At the national library of naples where this unopened material is stored.

And you can see from...

So both tires pros and portions of scrolls, like fragments that are completely unopened and never touched.

And it's fascinating.

As you mentioned, if fact that some these scrolls are partially opened and many fell apart during the eruption or afterward upon handling.

Other they're extremely delicate objects.

So what are some of the challenges of handling or working with such fragile material.

Yeah.

So third this actually is a strange situation out of the canadian pap proprietary particular condition because they are a carbon.

They're very fragile, but at the same time, they look like petrified object.

They look like very compact almost petrified object.

So on 1 side, they are incredibly fragile.

On the other side, they are, incredibly, compact and difficult to to open difficult to access.

As far as the open for Bi, are concerned, so Man handling them can be, of course, very dangerous and, we people have so did these callers who study, but priority have to be very careful about that because we cannot, keep the pap between 2, glass pieces as it happens for Pap found elsewhere, not carbon pap, So when you look at the pap virus under the microscope, you don't have anything protecting it.

Yeah.

There's nothing on top of the virus.

So you're handling the of wooden board to to which the pap virus glued and you're handling directly under the microscope.

So, of course, there, it it is dangerous to handle them, and also, there are, other challenges when you have to deal with this pap.

So on 1 side, and so on top of their Gb and carbon capitalization and everything else, you have the difficulty in reading the a fiery because of the black ink on the black surface.

So it is...

It can be particularly challenging to decipher attacks because you cannot, very clearly in some situation, distinguish the surface of the virus from the, ink that you are interested in.

And then there is a problem of fragmentation, of course, because as I said before, many of the girls were fragmented, and so they were...

They broke up in several pieces.

And so, most of our work today at the work with the pathologist working on open Pap, is to try to reconstruct the holes cro, putting all the fragments back together to their original position.

And then there is another problem that is closely connected to the, the condition, the compact condition of this growth, which is the so haul strat we refer to that with this term, which means that there are, very often overlapping layers of virus.

So the detachment of single individual layers were was not always attained.

It was very difficult actually to attain.

So, on the contrary, it happened very often that several layers remained the attached 1 to another And so this results in a situation where you cannot, read a continuous text.

But your taxes continuously is constantly...

Interrupted by other fragments coming from under other layers.

So, there is a need of reconstruction where you have to put this fragments back to their original position.

Yes.

It sounds like a a monumental task.

At at Michigan where I did my my Phd.

We had P from Car in Egypt, which, of course, our standard Pap papaya, you know, they're not carbon.

But even though if there was a big box we had in the in the the room, those full of fragments about the size of a finger nail, and we would try to be reconstruct them from those.

And of course, when they're carbon and add adhering together, it's whole levels of difficulty more.

Professor Gen, who I I worked with at Michigan a couple times.

Just tell me about this, and it sounded.

As I said, quite an effort.

So a kudos to you and your colleagues for doing this.

So besides works of philosophy, which we'll discuss in a moment, what new texts have been discovered in the papaya millennium to this point?

Yeah.

So the first important thing to say is that Each of the pap proprietary found in the in their clinical collection so far is a new...

Is a is a witness to a new completely new tech.

Mh.

So we don't have this text from any other sources.

So it is a specialized philosophical.

Library, as you said.

So most of the...

So the Greek of expiry coming from this library referred to philosophical, context and there's especially to peculiar.

There are also some proprietary from, the stoic schools so, the preserve works from the stoic season.

But most of the Greek Pap are philosophical texts this also...

It also interesting because philosophy in in the ancient word means something probably broader than what we expect.

So philosophy doesn't only mean, ethics.

It it also means, physics.

It means poetry, music, rhetoric.

It means geometry, it it means theology.

It means a lot of different things are it means other kind of topics that we're probably not expecting where you we're talking of, about philosophy today.

The left part of the library is a little bit of a mystery, actually.

There...

There's no possibility.

We we are not able to identify a unique context, they they could belong to the Lot scrolls could belong to no philosophical pap proprietary have been found in the lot texts.

So far, there were attempts to identify luc in the in the lot texts, but none of the of those attempts seem to be, confirmed, as stand right now.

So the lot tax are interesting because we can find...

So there is some, historical graphical text, some historical text.

Now, there is a text from Seneca Elder, which it is possible to read the the the end title, but it is very difficult to recover the text because it's so damaged that we cannot read more than a couple of words, continuous words.

As...

And and there are also some text of a legal nature among the lot tax.

So those are a little bit more surprising in terms of the general context.

And I I think it will be very interesting to understand if the virtual wrapping can retrieve some text from first from from more lighting scrolls because that would give us, clearer sense of the latin library in in the villa pd.

Mh.

Yeah.

I mean, that the possibilities are are so tantalizing, of course.

You know, I think for people who don't who Know are a little bit about them.

They think of Os pap papaya, for example.

And the works of history found there and the poetry found there.

And I think everyone's dreaming of, similar discoveries among these interesting interesting philosophical texts they're being recovered already.

Wasn't there also a poem by the battle of Act or something they found?

Know Very lighting text.

Mh.

Yeah.

It it is actually the best preserved among the lighting Draws it is a poem in on a bottle of, and that that is also interesting.

We don't have that title of it, but it's it's the best preserved so far among the lot scrolls.

Which is also interesting because it justifies to run interest...

Historical interest.

But also and in a of an interest in, poetry.

Mh.

Of course.

Now, as you mentioned, most of the scrolls are philosophical in nature, above all epic, and very many related to this person, Of God.

Can you talk us a bit about this man and about his philosophy.

So F of gala lived in the first century bc see.

He was outside of her, he only known as a poet as an Epi as a writer of epi.

And also dia liars shoes mentions him has, as the writer of for of a work on, history of philosophy.

But outside K, we don't have any of his philosophical texts.

From Air titanium, we know that he wrote a lot of actually a lot of philosophical books on really different topics.

So he wrote on ethics.

He wrote on the history of philosophy.

He wrote on on music poems, on on rhetoric, he wrote.

So for example, on Ethics, 1 of the most interesting works, according to me as a work on frank of speech or frankly disease, which is interesting because it's a sort of approach to philosophy and, frank is looked as is considered, important not only in the relationship between friends also in the relationship between teacher and students and between tell students, it's a very interesting topic, but actually.

And also, F was for a long time, was considered, sort of repeater of Epic doctrine, but we cannot regard him as a mere, sla repeat repeater.

Mh.

He actually innovated a lot, and he dedicated himself to, explaining and, adapting the the philosophy of Recruiters while still respecting it, of course, you know that Epic Is rejected public life and non necessary pleasure.

So it was a philosophy.

Was not particularly fitting the roman context, of course.

So he also worked a lot while still respecting this philosophy to fit, the, the context of of Roman society.

He actually intended to do with his greek philosophical Prose, fit That's something that was very similar to the objective of the lighting poem, the Composed by the decreases.

With...

Which who was actually a contemporary of and then an extraordinary, dis of Epic philosophy, for those have Not be familiar, Could you explain, the key beliefs of Epic korean philosophy.

We hear more about the stoic these days in the Internet for some reason.

But the Koreans, of course, we're the other great school of the hell enrollment periods.

Just a brief outline of what they practiced and their role in I was like Roman society.

Yeah.

So if we have to summarize.

Epic epithelial, and we can say that is...

First of all, it is 1 of the philosophical who whose interest was mainly, devoted to Finding a way to, achieve happiness, And to achieve a happy life.

A happy life means pleasure in needs pleasure, doesn't mean lux luxurious life or something like that.

Pleasure means absence of, pain of his spirit and of the body.

Right.

And there's so many ways to achieve as you set, like, withdraw from public life, and, you know, the stresses and storms as the creases would say.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And and also, an fine understanding of things like honesty, you know, frank, of music, of poetry.

And so it's kind of all encompassing philosophy, which we see embraced?

And so how much we learned about Epi korean philosophy from F and other works.

Preserve from the library.

How much I mean new things that we learned about epic the?

We we actually learn a lot because...

We we learned a lot not only about Himself, but also about other, authors.

For example, F teachers, zeno know, Sid.

Sometimes we have works by F.

Which transmit some notes he took during the lectures, he attended in Athens, lectures by X Sid, which, by the way, also Chic or attended.

So he was, an important person in the cultural, in the greek cultural system, Let's say.

So we...

Learn a lot on, on epic.

And on the way, epic was received in in different, mil, like the roman environmental or the roman cultural, society.

And also, F was is also very important because he is also sometimes vol against other philosophers, so he's talking against other philosophers from the same school or from different schools.

So we learn a lot about, the so called dis, reading, but also, we learn about other, philosopher from different philosophical schools through the worst of.

So it...

It's it's not only witnessing to epic, but also to other philosophical schools, that or, even not as only the stoic, of course, but so aristotle or or other philosophers that were coded or has to be...

Have to be considered as quoted in infinity words.

So that the whole, philosophical mil you as you said.

Of Rome in the First century B.

No, I mean, it's fascinating.

Do we have any any new works of Epic himself among the pap pie Yeah.

We have...

So, before the cleaning pap proprietary before it was possible to read them.

Epi was only transmitted by, indirect, quotation we have, 3 letters and some some of the sentence.

So this short sentences, summarizing epic.

But we didn't have anything from his capital work, on nature.

Mh.

Actually, we have several books on nature from the Pap, the and Pap expiry.

So we have really some some of the books are also very close to the source, we could say, because some of the books, including preserving works by Ip are very old.

There are some books that are from the third century we...

Wow, Very close to the time to the time of Epic himself, and probably, these books were coming from Athens.

We're probably part of F library, and he may have taken this with him, brought this pap to to a Colon to the to the Villa they where he probably at some point, they had to to leave or to, the Villa probably must have been attended by if few deem us at some point in his life because he he was very close to Lu Who was probably the owner of of this Villa.

And and there are several hints of the activity of F in the library itself.

Because sometimes you can find, works written in some multiple copies of the same works.

Mh.

And some of these copies show interesting feature like, for example, corrections or additions that are not attributable to sc mistakes.

But rather to an intention, a precise intention to make the text better, more elegant, so to act on directly on the style of the work, and this is something I we can only attribute to, the other themselves.

Mh.

So we are not suggesting there that F was pending this books, but he was probably their wild is.

Books were written.

And there there are some copies of books written written in the first century Bce so during his lifetime.

Well, that's fascinating that there are are drafts, he was probably dictating describes they're in the library.

Also there were scrolls that were 300 years old when that was carbon that that is that they lasted so long.

So it still believed then that this room in which most of Pirate discovered was the personal library of F or released part of his collection that was then preserved in the villa after he died?

Yes.

It it is possible because, you know, F was not, as I said before, transmitted by any other, Mh tradition.

And we have so many texts by him.

That this must means something.

Mh.

It is possible.

And also the multiple copies, the drafts, and also the fact that we know from Teacher that, F was so connected to this person.

Scott put.

And so there are several hints that point to a presence of Geraldine mo send the library, and also there's very ancient books with works by And sometimes, also multiple copies of works by, in some cases, even 3 copies of the same book of a nature by Recruiters.

So why do we have 3 copies of the same book?

Probably because it was particularly started, so there were many people consulting those books or because the tax was different in those...

A copies.

So it was interesting on a theological point of view to be able to compare different copies of the same book, Anyway, it seems that this library must have belonged to to an epic, and it's very probable that he...

It was.

At least a part of this library belonged to F that that he brought this this library with him to to the villa.

Yeah, it is, you know, philosopher at work, if pathologist at work really is kind of fun for scholars today.

So moving from the past to the present.

How do you become involved in the vas challenge?

So I was involved from the very beginning of the vas.

Challenge, actually, because I was working with brand seals at a, another prod...

On another project for the digitization of the open for bio.

Mh, at the library And I remember when Brent told me about this project about the Challenge I was still, something at the very beginning.

So they were discussing this possibility.

And it seemed very interesting because, of course, it it was for me, a very first experience with this kind of thing with a competition, having, people from the, from very different fields, and from different places in the world, working together on the straws was incredible for me.

And so I was very lucky actually to be involved from, from the beginning in the, in the challenge and and this competition also gave me the opportunity to work with the, scholars for with other neurologists, and it was very interesting to share this, this opportunity with them.

And also, it gave me the the chance to to work together with people from a different field, and I think this is very important and stimulating because sometimes when you're...

Don't do not have the possibility to, answer some question, you don't even ask them.

It it is strange, but you change...

Is working with people from different deals, changes your perspective a lot.

Mh.

Oh, I'm sure.

I mean, even for my secondary contact of this whole progress, it's been fascinating to watch, and this a s energetic effect in action.

For those who might be unfamiliar, could you please summarize the results thus far of the contest and why they're so important for our understanding of the pap pie?

So to summarize it very briefly, the contest so far has been able to prove that it is possible to retrieve text from 1 unopened pap virus.

From an unopened compact, carbon black lamp, preserve that the library in Paris in the in this situation here or naples or an oxford or whatever that are actually in 5.

So this really set the stage for a future, discovery and for the future recovery of, rate amount or huge amount of tax.

From antiquity.

And it's not only about reading new texts.

It's also about being able to build new context and also to be able to eliminate previous texts, thanks to what we'll learn from the new ones.

So we'll be able to probably to join pieces that were enrolled in the past.

With pieces that will be now virtually route.

So combining to different methodologies.

So the reconstruction methodology, we use every day when working on open straws with the new technologies for virtual wrapping.

And I think this will this will be incredible.

And also we'll have the chance to learn a lot about the organization of ancient libraries because this is a unique possibility right now.

Sometimes, in in some cases, there are some pap papaya that remain glued together, and this compact lump, having, like, 6 or 7 screws attached to each other.

Being able to read the text of those troll may tell us something about, books stored on the same shelves.

So books that were stored together in the library And this is really a unique opportunity we have.

And also, we'll we'll have a greater, larger amount of...

Books, philosophical books from.

So also in terms of bib physiological features and study of the way the text was organized and way the titles were written in the text and the the columns were written these scripts and everything.

It will, incredibly enrich our knowledge about ancient books and ancient libraries.

Oh, And I'm sure.

Yeah.

To be able to...

Essentially x ray quite literally an entire agent shelf of books as a 1 of opportunity.

If I understand only a short section of taxes has been decipher so far.

What is this initial section they've read so far say?

As far as you couldn't read it?

So it is probably something like...

5 5 percent of the whole, the Pierre Paris 4.

So 1 of the claims for I restored in Paris.

And so it it is the final part of the text.

We have the upper portion of the column of the last 15 columns of the text.

Mh And so we also have the very ending of the the work which is very interesting.

And the attacks seem to be...

Seems to deal with, the perceptions and pleasure, and probably, it is about how to achieve knowledge of things, thanks to sensations and and senses.

There are some examples on various, different fields.

So, for example, the author talks about food when talking about, about taste.

It talks about music probably when talking about hearing.

So there are different examples from different fields, but it seems like, like, the the the background, so the general context, the general topic is perception sensations.

Mh.

Yes.

So hopefully much more to come, on that and everything else.

So if the next phases of the challenge proceed as we hope and all the scrolls currently above ground in Naples and Paris, and Oxford Elsewhere can be at least partially red.

You know, what we hope to find?

Besides, of course, things like the organization of libraries, and the practical details of how things were organized and red.

So we we expect...

So when When I asked this question.

Mh.

Probably I am a little bit influenced, from what I know the library preserved, because, of course, I'm probably not expecting poems from antiquity.

I'm rather expecting works of philosophies or philosophical works, especially related to epic.

So we can we can expect the missing books, of the works we already have, but also several works written by authors we don't know anything about So completely new text, also from completely new authors or text from written by authors, we we know, but we didn't have any text from.

Mh.

And also, as I said before, I am very curious about the lot texts.

Coming from the virtual wrapping.

Because the lot straws were so damaged that it was so difficult to to read them and understand out their content it has been very difficult so far.

We don't know precisely why.

So they may have been stored in a place in the library where there were less protected.

Mh.

From the eruption, so just could be 1 of 1 of the causes for that.

There may be other Lot scrolls in the library in the in the Villa, underground.

We don't know that.

But the fact is that that in Pap are fewer, and there are were worse preserved.

Than the the brief 1.

So I I'm very curious about to learn about new techs coming from virtual dropping because it it will be really the first opportunity to read a continuous text from a aladdin scroll in general and from But also in general.

Mh.

Alright.

You mentioned that some stores were found in carrying cases when they were first digging up or tunnel into the villa.

Do we know which scrolls were found in those cases or they all jumbled together?

Not precisely, unfortunately, because so the...

Actually, there are some excavation...

The excavation journals are offer a lot of information about, the things that were found them where they were found.

Mh.

And sometimes, we have the measurements of the pap virus and in some cases, we have details like the particularly long pap proprietary were founded in this room.

Mh.

And so this can be interesting.

We know that Lot Pap papaya were a taller than greek ones, at least, as far as we can say, from the Pap hiring, that have been opened in the from the library, so this can be interesting thing, but, of course, the Pap papaya were inventor inventory later, so we don't precise the which.

We took the pap were were found in our specific in the place in the Villa.

Mh.

And so it's believed then that in this the store room where most the pirate found that they were on shelves.

Right?

Almost like a modern library.

Yes.

So the the excavation journals describe also the furniture.

Most and the pieces of furniture found in the in the rooms.

So in some cases, you see clearly that there are older, pieces belonging to cabinets and shelves.

Mh.

So it is interesting because this small room seem to have had previous shelves we can imagine them in a, in a modern library.

The the the schools were stored horizontally in in these shelves as And we may expect that there were a lot of shows in this library because many of Iv were found there.

Mh.

Right.

But they weren't read there as you said, of course, this was a small room without windows and they were probably red in these open spaces.

Yeah.

It's very probable.

And that, you know, along with the the great mystery of Royal And pie are coming from where they might still be.

Just said we have no idea.

You know, there might be nothing there, There might be all kinds of things there.

But do you think it's likely that the...

In our anticipation or expectation of there being more roles.

There will be no excavation at the villa and the near future is that a possibility?

There is a possibility that other pap can be found in the library.

Because we know that the the Bee love for sure wasn't...

Hasn't been ex activated in in its entirety.

So there are some part portions of the...

Some regions of the Villa that have never been activated, never been...

Take to the, to the, to an open, area.

But it is also difficult and of course, I'm not an archaeologist, so it's difficult for me to to say what will happen in the in the future.

So because there is the modern city insisting and it's very close to the, to the excavation side to the side of the Villa, and also, I know that now the general tendencies is to try to preserve what we have rather than Mh.

Ex and bring to light more structures because that that is an area where you more or less know that if you estimate, you find something and so there is a general tendency to try to maintain and preserve what you have right now.

So I understand that it is challenging.

It would be great if they could, ex activate more because we could be able to see the the whole side of the the Village to understand, what are the part we're still...

We are still missing and also perhaps to find out scrolls.

Mh.

Right.

Well, here here's hoping certainly that they make that attempt and that the process of the decipher ring goes as we all...

Expected to.

Because, this is a wonderful exciting time to be involved in anything with a Pirate, and especially in a in in a special.

So thank you so much, Dr Glad for taking the time to speak with us about this project.

I know I'll be looking forward to hearing much more about it.

And so everyone else I listening to listen to this podcast I expect.

So so thanks again.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.