[SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Mark Grove's podcast, we have guests very rarely these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was moving to no more guests, but then I've been actually wanting to get today's guest on the podcast for a long time.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when I found out that this wonderful gentleman wrote a book, one that's right up our alley, [SPEAKER_01]: Joe Nucci, welcome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm really excited to sit down and sense a quality time with you, Mark.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, me too.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I feel like you're such a breath of fresh air in a field that I and a conversation that tends to really avoid heart, like the hard subjects speaking to the nuance of things and also how we've really existed in a social media climate.

[SPEAKER_01]: with a lot of buzzwords in this base of psychology, and a lot of diagnoses via TikTok, et cetera.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's, I totally get what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of a weird thing to get present to because I feel like my field or even our field, like whether it's mental health or like self-help, or however you want to categorize it, I think before social media, like it was like only nuance.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: It was like all context, all new ones, all getting very granular and it's now like our emotional and relational lives have been flattened down to like five words, you know, like trauma narcissism, love bombing and like gaslighting and it's that's just this is not a good depiction of reality and it's part of the spirit of, um, [SPEAKER_00]: of what I do because I'm not a, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I, I once saw what's his name.

[SPEAKER_00]: Tom, she, he's made Google, he's like, um, a, like a, a technologist, like helped work on, like a self-driving car.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I, I once saw him on a panel and he said something like, um, [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really want to be an important person.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to do like important work.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I think the people, I don't know what your thoughts on this service are, but I think the people like inner fields, I don't know if they've clearly delineated that for themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because for me, I try my very best to not [SPEAKER_00]: You know, not be a grifter, but not be like a sick afan to either.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not just going to say things, just because they feel good.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to tell you the truth, because I think that honesty is curative in our relationships and in therapy or in a romantic relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's best I can tell you is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that supposed to be the role of therapy or coaching that really there is a confrontation with reality?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because so much of our adaptive strategies are ways of actually not being with reality.

[SPEAKER_00]: I believe that to be true, like my answer is yes, but I would say that there are two important things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would say that some people feel that there are things that you [SPEAKER_00]: maybe necessarily cannot change and so they call it in like the literature.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like positive illusions.

[SPEAKER_00]: So there's like stories that you kind of like tell yourself, like make the hard times a little bit easier.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that can be adapted to a certain extent and there can be something therapeutic to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also think, you know, to not just a therapist credit, but particularly a therapist with, you know, social media platforms, I know that sometimes I'll post something and I don't intend the message to be like, [SPEAKER_00]: everyone else in your life is the problem and like you are not the problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't know if you saw this like video I did it was like the accountability formula.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was about like how much grace and allowance to extend to someone like a loved one with a mental illness and the comments for just like thousands and thousands of comments.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like yes, I made the right decision cutting off this family member.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like thank you for like validated me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like interesting because that is not the point of the video.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like actually if you like [SPEAKER_00]: But watch it and so, but the engagement is so much stronger, you know, and so I think that just like an individual therapy, you know, if you want to go find a therapist to call to you, you can go find one, you can keep switching them up until you find like your match, you know, is that what's best for you and your mental health, I would argue probably not, but it's not all on us is what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do think it takes two to take go.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially the lens through which someone watches content because I could as you're saying, you know, put up a video about a specific thing and people could interpret it in two completely different ways in the way that they desire to with their own bias.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the myths that you bust is your feelings are credible.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious is that one of the most prevalent ones in terms of the prioritization of feelings over everything.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the reason why therapists are always validating your feelings is that a lot of times mental health symptoms are correlated with emotional suppression.

[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, maybe someone has been cheating disorder or depression or anxiety, or it might be, I've looked at the literature, I've also just seen it in my practice.

[SPEAKER_00]: You work with them to feel their feelings, to express them authentically and congruently, and the symptomology goes away at decreases.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's really, really amazing, but I think what sometimes people forget is then they then take that to this extreme where it's kind of like, well, they then take that and say, oh, well, feeling your feelings is always good.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the only person I think I read about this is the book the only person that gets that deal is like a small child Like no one like if you actually take a step back for a second, it's like what are you talking about?

[SPEAKER_00]: Your feelings are always good and like always express them or you're being mentally unhealthy like that's one way to get to crazy down Like maybe that's a reticle I mean that's that's that's that's wild to me [SPEAKER_00]: In that chapter, I talk about, I share a story, and if I'm being honest, it didn't happen just one time at the version of it I tell is, you know, I'm dating somebody new and all the side of their red receipts turn on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they're not getting back to me, but they've read it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is different, like why are they doing that?

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I have feelings about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The one individual I'm thinking of, I'm no longer dating this person, and it's not because of this exact problem, but I ask them about it later, I do not express my feelings, I don't believe them, I check in and I'm like, hey, I noticed you've been leaving me on red and they got the new iPhone and they didn't know that their red receipts were turned on and it just wasn't like a thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, think goodness, I didn't, you know, sit there and like kind of a self-righteous meant to have a little bit of a way and was like, well, I'm going to express these feelings to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then what I think a lot of people then do nowadays is that they've been extend that and say, well, if your version of reality conflicts with mine, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: That's like that's like harming me because it like it hurts emotionally and like don't keep it wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like that sucks when your perspective doesn't match off with somebody else's.

[SPEAKER_00]: But that's also like life, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's where like the myth comes from, and it's, and again, it's just missing that important nuance of sometimes to express his curative, but sometimes to suppress his curative, sometimes adaptably avoiding the feeling is exactly what you need to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll also add, you know, people come into therapy and, um, [SPEAKER_00]: broadly speaking, there's kind of one of two types.

[SPEAKER_00]: They come in and they don't really like cry or show any congruent emotion for like a year.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they're just so disconnected from themselves, maybe it was their upbringing, maybe it was like, you know, a trauma or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so their work is like, no feel your feelings, feel your feelings, [SPEAKER_00]: But then there's this other type where they come in and they're, I mean, they're sobbing on the first day, they're having panic attacks in the middle of session like they really can't keep a lid on anything and that's, it doesn't take a shrink to tell you that the solution for that person is not necessarily to, to feel them more deeply, there could be other things that you, you need to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and how important that is to be able to recognize that, yeah, our feelings are experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: As you said, it's nice when they align with other people in a dating process.

[SPEAKER_01]: But if we can't hold that there's different worlds and different experiences, even in dating and relating, how do you hold it in this sort of greater cultural context?

[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, well, so this is more like on a personal share, I've started seeing somebody new.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're madly in love.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so not rational.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what I'm in this moment like what I'm present to about it is it's reciprocal.

[SPEAKER_00]: like we're both showing about the same level of interest to be both want to go about like the same pace.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this first to be keep joking, we're kind of like, you know, it's like, oh, we're not gonna like say anything crazy yet, but then of course, like, you know, we're letting the process long, but what makes it beautiful and wonderful is that it's reciprocal.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so often in dating, people are there.

[SPEAKER_00]: timelines or their expectations are mismatched and they don't they they may not even necessarily know that and so then what's what's a normal Feeling it becomes it starts to be cast as like unhealthy or dysfunctional and may or may not be But then to your point you like extend that to something even broader like feelings in like a family system or in like a Commuter or culture like [SPEAKER_00]: society and it gets tricky.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's extra tricky nowadays just because we all live in all of our information ecosystems are so individualized.

[SPEAKER_00]: Social leaders are a beautiful thing and there's lots of good about it but one of the bad things about, you know, we used to have like well like three broadcast networks we would listen to and it was kind of like, okay, like those are like the three kind of twists on like what's happening but now it's like, I mean, you can tell any story you want and [SPEAKER_00]: and listen to your podcast, I would probably believe something similar to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very, very wild.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it very tricky?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you can be, I think a lot of the big cultural moments, like, for example, most recently, the Charlie Kirk thing is like, two people can have completely different experiences of the exact same event and then have the completely different information sources and [SPEAKER_01]: and yet we exist in the same world.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's even, so I was talking to an associate about this, and we were both commenting on.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not even just that there's different information ecosystems.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's also like, it's a confirmation bias on steroids, because if you want to see video proof proof in quotes, [SPEAKER_00]: that he was a horrible, bigoted person, like you can find those videos very, very easily.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you want to go see videos of him, like defending black people and gay people and like, and he's just like you can also find that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so, so it's like it's even like a step beyond like we're living in like, [SPEAKER_00]: a post-truth world.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like we're living in a world where it's like even like, you know, quote unquote evidence or footage isn't going to like change your mind.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, right, even if it's pretty, which is pretty wild.

[SPEAKER_01]: It reminds me of like, if you're dating someone, and then there's a picture or photo of them cheating on you and you don't take in the information because you're just like, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you have a specific bias about either they're really good or you couldn't imagine them like, must be AI.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now at least people will probably be AI.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, can you about that maybe?

[SPEAKER_01]: They probably don't try.

[SPEAKER_01]: They'll play like Shaggy's song, it wasn't me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, listen, I mean, denial is also super powerful thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when my early lessons is a psychotherapist, I, you read about it in school.

[SPEAKER_00]: You read, I don't rush to restore.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what young practitioners do.

[SPEAKER_00]: They rush in, like give the answer and to.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm gentle and long, and I remember one of my first patients, they came in, described their problems, and I, the next session, I basically scanned like a page of a book that basically described them and their problem to a T.

[SPEAKER_00]: and highlighted, we read it together and they were like, wow, that makes so much sense.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the next session, the third session, they came in, they didn't remember.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they just didn't remember.

[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't remember the highlight, and I was like, I thought, like, are you fucking with me?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it was so, like, strange.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it was, I think it was too deep too fast.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was too much.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so we eventually did get there, but it was months later.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's, I mean, that makes me think of like so many different things, but I think that one thing that comes top of mind is it's also, it's like, again, [SPEAKER_00]: Different timelines, different cognitive processing speeds, different emotional processing speeds.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you're mismatched with people, it can be really difficult, you know, particularly in relationship and dating, people aren't always on the same page.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think everyone understands this intuitively, because I mean, are any, is anyone listening like on the same page in terms of like their processing style or speed is with their like family?

[SPEAKER_00]: like right probably not and those are literally your genetics so they don't like what you like.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well you know with the because I'd say probably what in the last [SPEAKER_01]: six, seven years, but mainly I'd say during COVID, there was such a massive change online to a lot more psychological conversation, a lot more mental health conversation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious, you know, given that you wrote this book, I am curious of two things.

[SPEAKER_01]: One, do you think we're better off because of it?

[SPEAKER_01]: So what have been the, maybe the improvements that have happened from more psychological awareness, and then let's get into, like, how is this caused actually a lot of detrimental impacts?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I would kind of play a reverse in no card and like ask you and anybody who's listening and watching.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've never invested in mental health more.

[SPEAKER_00]: We've never branded it more aggressively or scaled it in terms of kind of awareness and culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you feel like we're just drowning in mental wellness?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like everyone is just so conscious and so self-aware and such a, you know, so resilient and you know such a expert communicator like it doesn't feel that way to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: and I don't think that the data certainly doesn't indicate that we're getting better.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think we're a little bit better at the last time.

[SPEAKER_00]: I looked at numbers.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're a little bit better today than we were at the peak of COVID, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Or like that's kind of kind of a rock bottom.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So it's a we're still not like back and we weren't that great before COVID, either in all fairness.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that one of the one of the things that I talk about in the book, [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing I'm trying to really normalize in my content is there's such a big problem, or there's such a big difference, excuse me, there's such a difference between a mental illness or a mental health concern and what we might turn like a problem of living.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's this amazing book that I read in ground school that really impacted me and impacts a lot of my work.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's called saving normal.

[SPEAKER_00]: His name is Dr.

Allen Francis.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's written large chunks of the DSM, this is psychiatrist.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he publishes this book in like 2013 or something like that and basically the thesis of the book is Don't medicalize every day life because not only is that moral philosophically problematic But we actually have literature and proof to suggest that it will make things worse [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things he says and this is a paraphrase with a quote is something like, you know, if it's a mental disorder, like it will not get better with time.

[SPEAKER_00]: It will not get better with social support, like it needs clinical attention or it's going to get worse.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the longer you go about clinical attention, the tougher therapy is going to be.

[SPEAKER_00]: on the person.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that makes sense, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you get someone they have a mild substance used to sort of very different from a severe severe addiction that has lasted decades and decades.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like obviously, you know, compare that to a problem of living most of those problems will go away with time and with regular social support or just kind of figuring life out.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that this is particularly true.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what one of my theories and all this stuff about what do you think about this is like, [SPEAKER_00]: I've noticed it really comes up in the following domains.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like in the domains of like identity, of work, of family, and of love, and relationship, and dating.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that these are all areas in which we want to have more control than we have.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like the truth is like dating's hard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like even like, you know, famous people, celebrities, people that are, you know, beautiful, right, Instagram influencers, like everyone's dealing with similar problems, like getting ghosted, liking someone that doesn't like you back and like, why don't they like you back, like you're perfect for them?

[SPEAKER_00]: right.

[SPEAKER_00]: All this stuff, I don't know, sometimes I think the psycho battle just kind of gives you a greater sense of control, but I think that really the the best thing that you can do, you know, if someone doesn't like you back, as maybe they [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, maybe they're avoidantly attached or maybe attachment styles only occur when you are actually attached to someone, you know, and maybe they're actually avoiding further in intimacy with you, which sucks when you really like them and again, if it's not like reciprocal, like that's like a painful place to be, but I don't know so many people are maybe using a framework like attachment styles to try to like, [SPEAKER_00]: understand or early stage dating and I don't think it's an appropriate framework for it and I think you would be much better served to you can feel sad like you can feel disappointed you know you put yourself out there and they didn't reciprocate but that's a very human thing you did and putting yourself out there and being like hey I like you like do you like me it's like no oh well bummer you know but instead it's like it's so much like intellectualizing and avoiding and ironically like not feeling your feelings adaptive way [SPEAKER_00]: I would argue, and I don't think that's what we had in mind when we branded and scaled mental health like this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just like we as a mental health culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's what we had in mind at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's obviously beneficial to learn frameworks that you can apply to your behavior that allow you to change your behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the challenge is that you could take something like attachment style, then you could also talk about [SPEAKER_01]: empaths and narcissists, then you can move into codependency and you could, you know, so there's like all these different, you could then go into nervous system and semantics and regulation and co-regulation and self-regulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you could use all these different frameworks that basically like take a cluster of behaviors and then put a little label on them.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the problem is you're saying, you know, if you say I am a certain attachment style, then [SPEAKER_01]: Now are your behaviors excused and and do you get to just blame the other person because what I see a lot online, which I've spoken a lot about is like [SPEAKER_01]: The majority of the people consuming relational information are people who are trying to figure out like you said this dating, trying to control, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: So if I like no enough, I think the interesting thing is that that's tends to be the type of person that goes into therapeutic practices or into coaching is there are people who want to resolve something within themselves or like figure something out.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you have all these people who [SPEAKER_01]: who are trying to figure out, why is this person that way?

[SPEAKER_01]: And why did I get hurt?

[SPEAKER_01]: And then how do I change them so that they're not avoidant anymore?

[SPEAKER_01]: And also, which I want to hear your thoughts on, is we label any form of avoidant behavior, like distancing, et cetera, ghosting, whatever it is, even disagreeing.

[SPEAKER_01]: We label it all, we often do, I don't wanna say all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like any behavior that is a is like fearful of some form of intimacy Which could be because you get a little too hot a little too fast like you're over pursuing your you're someone who maybe has a more frenetic energy You know that you tell someone you love them in the first three days or first day and then you're like there are narcissists They ghosted me.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're like well, what about your own shit?

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I also think, you know, in terms of that, what I talked to patients about, what's really helped me is, you know, English were used as word love, but broadly speaking, it means more than one thing on one hand, it is a feeling, but on the other hand, it's like a commitment and an action and a practice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you can, you can know, I mean, like within seconds, I would argue, like you've got, like that spark, like that feeling and that passion, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Even that deep, like caring, like empathetic, [SPEAKER_00]: feeling like like version of love, but you really can't know if you're experiencing a receiving ladder without time, you know, and I think that it's, you know, maybe we need two different words for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but I think that for me, just understanding that people, [SPEAKER_00]: that it's not just a word that means two different things, but that people may not actually understand, you know, which they're speaking from.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's true, so I don't want to be guilty of, you know, spreading psychobabble in this information, but I'm so happy.

[SPEAKER_00]: PR is something, they did like a study about, you know, pre-frontal cortex activation, [SPEAKER_00]: when you're in love or like in like in a factuated with somebody and it it shuts off like it doesn't get as much activation the logic the logical doesn't make sense the brain it's like it's in theory because you know the most self-aware like therapist or coach or just person you know will just catch somebody sent or glands and they're just like out the window like all the [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I would argue that maybe that's a good thing like maybe if we actually had that much self control like would we actually take chances?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, vulnerability is um, is powerful because it's a risk, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, like vulnerability is strength and like I love.

[SPEAKER_00]: what Bernay Brown has done to kind of rebrand that word and awareness around it, but everyone always forgets to include what Bernay also says in her TED Talks, which she talks about, you just need one person to know your story.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, she doesn't actually say, like, you know, like, get on the internet and, like, show your room.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, she actually is technically not said that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's not like how she defines leadership.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it can be, of course, but like, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's the point is that there's a real risk in it, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I, to your point about the narcissism thing, like, I don't my theory on why everyone's exes in narcissist because it's hysterical mark when I was writing this book and people would be like, oh, what are some of the myths you talk about?

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, oh, well, myth number 17 is called, you know, your exes definitely in narcissist every single time it was the same conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: It would go, oh my gosh, that word is so overused.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd be like, I know, and then, and then they would go, but my ex, and I would go, no, no, no, my ex.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's like it's part of the absurdity because it's like even if like it is one in six people Which I think is a false number by the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the way there's there's no there's absolutely no That's just it's really narcissists.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, but the point is is that like we can't probably hire them [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we couldn't, yeah, like we are Tinder is in fact a lot of narcissists, but everyone else is gets totally, yeah, and so why here are a few of the things that I write about in the book.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, one of them is this idea of like you have insecure coping versus grandiose coping, and so insecure coping is the thought of like, oh, it's going to break up.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm the worst.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm unlovable.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not good enough.

[SPEAKER_00]: I messed it up.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to be with anyone again.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're kind of one down in yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then the other side of the coin is some people in that sort of stress and breakups are super stressful.

[SPEAKER_00]: They want up themselves and it's a little bit more like, don't they know how fucking lucky they were?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, like, I don't fucking need them, you know, and it's still from a place of like wounded, like defensiveness.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not about to sit here and say, as a mental professional, well, one downing yourself is way better for your mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there is no proof of that at all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not going to sit here and say that, you know, it is necessarily inherently abusive or toxic to [SPEAKER_00]: to say mean things in the midst of a breakup.

[SPEAKER_00]: And of course, that doesn't mean you should just be able to say that you can let it rip, or you like deserve the mean things that we're said to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: But in a breakup, you know, a psychodynamic, a psychoanalyst would call it like splitting.

[SPEAKER_00]: You start to view things or people at all good or all bad terms.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a feature of certain personality disorders, but I think in a breakup, it's super adaptive to have a period where it's like you don't like the person anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: because it forces a sign that's important.

[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, have you seen, like, you might maybe see this more in your space, but sometimes I see, I watch people that they've, like, consciously uncouple and then they talk for the next three years and they hook up sometimes and then there's, like, there's drama and then all of their friends are like, I'm like, I'm like, wait, is that like, are we gonna say this is like, healthier because you didn't have conflict in the beginning?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, you just, you sprinkle a bit over time or put it off for a couple of years, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you like, you have to, and then you, you, you avoid entering relationship with anyone new.

[SPEAKER_01]: You never actually experienced the severance.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's so much, you might even become polyamorous in that circumstance.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a totally different way.

[SPEAKER_01]: You become what is the new term conscious monogamy or no radical monogamy?

[SPEAKER_00]: That was, oh, oh, oh, is it radical?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess these days, it's not monogamy technically, but it's how we [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, I think that those are a couple but at least one reason why we feel like all of our axes are narcissistic because the grandios coping and, you know, to go from, like, let's say you and I have Mark, let's say you and I are in love and we're dating.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you are Mark, you are, you're my son and my stars.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like I'm going to be deferring to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be like, all of your little quirks are so cute and like your perfect imperfections.

[SPEAKER_00]: And like, you know, it's like every love song you've ever heard.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but now we don't like each other anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: and we're breaking up and I am no longer deferring to you emotionally anymore, because guess what?

[SPEAKER_00]: We're breaking up, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Or like, or this is down on the vine and we haven't accepted or whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so of course the the contrast is I'm going to feel so much more selfish than what you were used to that doesn't make me a narcissist, you know, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like a [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no totally, you know, we went from like, you know, like, casino, my perfect baby boy or like, you know, like, whatever it is, like, you talk like to one another, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's kind of like, oh, like, now what?

[SPEAKER_00]: Now you're, like, not showing any sort of affection, like, that's gonna feel super cold, super cold and insensitive.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know I've counseled people and I know people in my life who they put off breaking up with someone because they can't stand hurting them and they know how badly, but they're really just hurting them worse in the long term, if it actually is a relationship that needs to end, it's actually like not kind because they're stealing time from them.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so anyways, yeah, those are some way theories about narcissism.

[SPEAKER_00]: I also just really want to normalize this idea of like if we're going to [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about narcissism this much.

[SPEAKER_00]: Can we at least talk about it like it is a normative trait like so many psychologists believe that it's like actually it's okay to have some healthy doses of it, you know, just like it's okay to be sensitive or extroverted.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, or open-minded or agreeable or like whatever personality trait you want to pick in extreme rigid manifestations, you know, being let's say highly agreeable that could look like something like people pleasing and like kind of pathological like, you know, like low levels of self-esteem or something like that's not good just like really high levels of narcissism are not good, but you know, I think of some obsession with the self.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, is it interesting how there's some of the people please are in the narcissist?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I love that meme.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, um, oh, you're a people, please are named three people who are pleased with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's not good.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they, you probably can't.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what are their ones?

[SPEAKER_01]: Did you find were, like, when you were testing?

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was watching your journey of of [SPEAKER_01]: preparing some of the myths and checking with your audience.

[SPEAKER_01]: So curious what were some of the other myths that you really saw people getting amplified by?

[SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed one, I wanted to touch on it if you don't bring it up, because I think it's a real hot button subject for you to wait.

[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, which one?

[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: The one on everything is ADHD and neurodivergence.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm a woman, I'm at that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: First off, of course you can't pay attention.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have a fucking TikTok brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're a little attention span.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then we put in the diagnoses.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, don't even get me started that you take kids and you sit in a fucking seat all day in a school and expect them to pay attention when, you know, and then I think about drugs that are used to treat this thing that are [SPEAKER_01]: basically math.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I just, I can't, I used to be a pharmaceutical rap for 14 years, so I can automatically understand that I have to undo a lot of what I did.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I look at it and I go, like, there's just so many issues that we just code as this diagnoses that then I forget what percentage of kids in the US are actually on.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's something like a [SPEAKER_00]: But that's why I'm crazy.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what I don't understand about it, Mark, is it wasn't even five ten years ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember seeing like documentary is on like HBO or something about like the over-diagnosis of ADHD and like the pharmaceutical industrial complex and like, you know, this and that and like whatever.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then it's like then like five to ten years later.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, oh, everyone's kid has it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's grandma has added all their lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was great.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just like weird shift where I'm kind of like, wait, like, what happened to them?

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I get into those of you who became so political.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, you know why, because neurodivergency is actually a political term.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not a clinical term.

[SPEAKER_00]: And people don't even know this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, people hate it when I bring this up, but it's like, this is not a secret.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like you literally go to and read the book, neurodiversity, the book of the birth of an idea by Judy Singer, who's not a clinician, who's a sociologist, and she says very plainly, this is a sociopolitical movement, you know, to unite neurological minorities, but then she does and I can't quite figure this out about her thinking.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: She then talks about how [SPEAKER_00]: everyone is a neurological minority but that's that is incorrect based on the term minority like it's it's very interesting like phrase I also in the library and I read the whole book cover to cover and I read other [SPEAKER_00]: kind of like thinkers and writers have been influenced by the moving or part of the movement.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't quite understand what they mean, like by systemic change, like maybe, like, is it just like a socialism communism thing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, is it?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because if it's, listen, if it's accommodations and policies, or like, you know, like institutional, like, like, it can be like massager institutions in a way, it's like, make room for more people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm super like into that, for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just like, it's not defined, which I find very frustrating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it can't be because if it gets defined, then now, you know, it's, if it gets defined, then we have a legitimate thing we could talk about, but by keeping it this fluid, sort of mysterious, then everything can be it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, I mean, I, I was on this one a little while ago, and I said, who here believes they think differently than other people.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like [SPEAKER_01]: So by definition, it would be divergent.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so it's like this obsession with specialness, this obsession with being different.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm curious to thoughts on this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This might be a controversial take.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that in a world where you have, if you have more intersections, you also have more protections from being attacked.

[SPEAKER_01]: that if you can pick an intersection like neurodivergence, it kind of takes you out of the target.

[SPEAKER_01]: Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that one of the reasons why it's like popularized in a way, because I'll [SPEAKER_00]: I'll make posts about how, you know, like the point of therapy, the point of mental health, the point of self-help, the point of all of this is to, is to transform.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's to be better.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have ADHD.

[SPEAKER_00]: Before I decided to disclose that on my platforms and channels, I remember the team of editors I was working with at the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, oh, we had no idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, yeah, because I am correctly toast to my medication.

[SPEAKER_00]: I practice executive function.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now it still holds me back sometimes, you know, like if I can't do all of the lifestyle things or like whatever it is because it's like you you just can't like you just can't sleep any perfectly all the time like you can't necessarily prioritize like that's life and so sometimes you know it it gets in the way but overall it's very very well managed now and all fairness.

[SPEAKER_00]: maybe my case of it is more mild than other people, there is kind of a spectrum of how severe it can be.

[SPEAKER_00]: But people get so mad when I say this, and they always bring up ADHD and autism as examples, well, it's like, well, what about, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: these two things and it's interesting because it's never, it's never the bipolar people which also doesn't have like quote unquote cure.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's never like any of these other diagnoses and I think that one of the reasons why is because, I mean if I mean quite honest, I think it's because if you haven't really like been an integrity with yourself and like really tried, [SPEAKER_00]: You know to to make yourself better and for those listening and watching when I say better I don't mean that it's like now you're no longer neurodeveraging and you act just like a quote I'll go at marriage of a whole person.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying, but are you able to be like more functional?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are you able to contribute and show up as a team member of your job and in your relationship and like with your loved ones you know And I I have a hard time accepting for really anybody [SPEAKER_00]: for them to be like oh well this is just who I am and I'll tell you why I don't know if I've actually shared this one before but you know people know me is such a great like speaker and writer.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember when I was younger I struggled with those subjects.

[SPEAKER_00]: I remember seeing this commercial for it was called phonics.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember phonics?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: hooked on phonics and I remember it came this big purple box and I remember begging my parents for it and I was like, I need this, I need this and I did it and then it became you know English and history and like reading intensive subjects became like the thing I was best at.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and so like how sad it would be for me to be a kid today, you know, they send me to the school testing psychologist and they're kind of like, oh, yeah, like he's got this, you know, put them on medication and when really I just needed a chance to develop it my own pace and in my own way and so I think that, you know, and there's so many stories like that, you know, parents who fight for their kids.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, in terms of like, learning differences and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that it's maybe that's one of the reasons why I believe so deeply just in the potential of human transformation, whether it's in like therapy or coaching or something else.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I really do.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, people will, I'll bring it up and like other domains like I'll be like, well, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can go into remission for borderline personality disorder and that's not like my opinion like that there's literature reflecting this and then people want to get like they're so desperate to To prove this story wrong.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting like if I like to keep their label you mean [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so if I say the borderline personality disorder is one of the most curable personality disorders, which it is, you know, I have comments swarming with people like picking apart the study's methodology and this and that, but then if I say something like, which is not true, but like if I say something like, well, this is lifelong and like this is like, you know, if it's just cotton candy, if it's just fluff.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like no one bouts in the eye.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's that quote that it's like, you can either fight for your limit.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like people will fight for their limitations rather than their liberations.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so interesting to think about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: That identity itself is so freeing.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the diagnoses is for is [SPEAKER_01]: theoretically freeing, but it's also can become a prison in and of itself as you're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious what you see as the most common founding pathology of bipolar.

[SPEAKER_00]: Becoming pathology.

[SPEAKER_00]: You mean like the causes in?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if we totally know.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very fond.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's some really exciting, what's that guy's name?

[SPEAKER_00]: He's working on like metabolic theories of mental illness.

[SPEAKER_00]: So he thinks it's like a metabolism problem, which makes sense to him because it's like a psychiatrist.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's like a dysregulation of like too much energy or not enough energy and it kind of makes sense to me because like, you know, if you, um, you know, if you take, um, eat a bunch of sugar or take a bunch of stimulants, like you are essentially in like a hypomanic state, you know, your mind is racing, you have lower impulse control, you're probably taking risks.

[SPEAKER_00]: financially sexually like you know there starts to be some like overlap there and so I think that's really interesting theory my favorite definition of mental illness though and this applies to bipolar or anything else mental health it's a definition of mental health mental health is understanding how your nervous system works and taking care of yourself [SPEAKER_00]: And so if you have bipolar disorder or some version of it, maybe taking care of yourself looks like taking a mood stabilizer or maybe it's just knowing that and now as the weather changes, I'm going to feel a temptation to sleep less.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to do more, but that I need to practice my different skills and tools, and then in the winter, I need to force myself to get outside, like, et cetera, and just keeping yourself more balanced.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because this is how your nervous system works, your nervous system doesn't have the same guard rails that other people do in terms of your highs and your lows.

[SPEAKER_00]: For me with ADHD, it's something that helps me just like with my ADHD, taking like really good care, like of my body, nutritionally, you know, supplements, it really helped me, et cetera, moving my body for sure, you know, and then just knowing that what I don't do that, like, what is that going to look like, like, what do I need to look out for?

[SPEAKER_00]: How does ADHD show up in relationships?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a fun, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, all of these people, it's funny, it's like the whole internet thinks they're ADHD and, [SPEAKER_00]: on the autism spectrum and the whole internet is like stop love bombing each other and it's like, well, are you love bombing or are you hyperfocusing and hyperfixating?

[SPEAKER_00]: Which is something that people with ADHD and autism do.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, particularly on a new crush, like all those chemicals in that dopamine, you know, of course you're gonna be fixing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Anyone would, but if you already have problems with impulse control, [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you are going to order it out like I love you, or like a little earlier.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I must love you because I feel these feelings.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's totally, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think about how much diet impacts so many behavioral things and developmental.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're talking about with sugar, you know, and there's the thought that the overlap of dementia's type 3 diabetes.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, in existence and you're having these big highs, big sugar dumps, insulin, et cetera, because kiddo is supposed to be quite good for kids who have issues when they're young, developmental issues.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, from a for autism for ADHD, [SPEAKER_01]: and they end up being a more of a ketogenic state.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting to think about, because it's such a reduction of inflammation.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that type of diet.

[SPEAKER_00]: My theory on a lot of it, too, is I think that those kind of alternative approaches are probably much more helpful when it's more like the mild, it's like moderate cases of a lot of these things, but I would argue that if it is a mild case, [SPEAKER_00]: Is it a diagnosable mental illness or is this just more of like you have certain traits you know what I mean and so it's like I think that that's where again we get into that like is this mental illness or like a problem of living and if one of your problems of living is that your energy is all over the place then like yeah like I mean I don't think there's a doctor out there who would disagree it's like being experimenting with car portion and timing [SPEAKER_00]: could really help you if you are like, you know, non verbally autistic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it might be like a different idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so it's, um, it's tricky.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's in, you know, that's one of the problems with all this psychopathic people will accuse me of being insensitive by pointing out these nuances.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I say, no, no, you are actually being [SPEAKER_00]: super insensitive to equate your corkiness as like a tech engineer and your preference for like systemic thinking or whatever with a person that literally needs disability accommodations to make me like you are too completely different people and yeah maybe you share some similar traits but that doesn't mean you get the same label and I think that it's I don't know did you watch that uh with that show that came out like a month or two ago unknown number [SPEAKER_00]: It was like the uh, so for those listening, this is a this is a spoiler.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like basically you find out that this poor girl that's getting like harassed the anonymous text message for like two years or something like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: It ends up being her mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember watching the internet, it's so fucked up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember watching the whole internet freak out at this teenage girl like this young child.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that says, you know, like, but I still kind of want like, [SPEAKER_00]: I still kind of want a relationship with her, you know, like, it's my mom and everyone's like, how could she, how could she, I'm like, what are you talking about how could she?

[SPEAKER_00]: This is exactly how a survivor of trauma and emotional abuse would respond, even if it wasn't her mom, like even if it was like somebody else.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's one of those things where it's like, we love to pat ourselves on the back and say, oh, yeah, like we're still meant to help the literate and like we're so accepting.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're so empathetic until it's a severe mental illness, until it's like your friend wants to get back with their abuse of husband.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: All the sudden we don't have the tolerance for it anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm not, and listen, it's super complicated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know if the right answer is to them, like, you know, accept your friend's decision, so she can then internalize the message that this is okay for me to get back with my views or like, I don't think that that's like, I don't think that's right, either.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's super, super tough and complex, which is why we need all of this nuance, but it's kind of like, yeah, people, people love to say their neuro affirming until, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: get through the day without being really disruptive and it's just like, well, how progressive are you really when I comes to mental health?

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not me if that sounds daunting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean it to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's me being playful and inviting people actually who are listening.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, no, like, think about what that would mean to actually have that kind of open mind in this and that kind of education, that kind of compassion for people, you know, that are really struggling.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think the world would be better if we were all more like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't, I'm not convinced that's actually where we are, right, which is so interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of you presentation, but not a, you know, in the research, looking at people who identify as Virgil's victims and how it shows that they're more willing to lie.

[SPEAKER_01]: to appear, and there's a crossover with the dark triad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do know this study.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's interesting to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is because I think, like, first what you were saying about, well, it hurts my feelings that you're saying this, that you're not validating whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the internet seems to you and I think this really came up probably in like 2016 issues where I really started to see it is that if I have feelings about what you're doing then I need to stop you from doing that instead of experiencing my feelings and if you're not sensitive to my feelings then you're whatever trope I can use that's popular that will automatically cause you to experience shame and potentially shut down [SPEAKER_01]: Or I'll just get an army of people against you to cancel you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like so we, I think the, but I'm curious your thoughts on this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is my thought and you could be like, nah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But my thought is that we have been pivoting around the people with the lowest capacity for emotional disregulation and they've been the ones generally in charge of what conversations we've been allowed to have and the types of conversations.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, for social media, you're saying [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that it feels true to me because the lower your resilience, the higher your sensitivity to negative emotion, the more likely you are to engage with the content, the more engagement that piece of content has, the more other people are going to see it, the higher the likelihood that someone else who agrees or disagrees with you, [SPEAKER_00]: It's going to argue with you about it in the comments or relate to what you're saying or not relate to what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's tough.

[SPEAKER_00]: So what comes up for me is one of the myths I talk about in the book is about being an empath.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things I write about that I like to talk about is I say name one quote unquote empath you know, who goes to a party or a music festival.

[SPEAKER_00]: and feels all of that positive emotion and just gets drunk on it.

[SPEAKER_00]: 99% of the time your empathfriend isn't like that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They only feel the negative emotion.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it could be from trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It could be from like a personality disorder or like a temperamental thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think that that's, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, they, they wear it like it's like it's a, like it's a badge of honor.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know a few people who I believe to be genuinely like very deeply like empathic creatures and they feel everybody's everything and good stuff and bad stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: And but they, they sometimes talk about it like like it's more like a curse, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I'm exhausted.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, any like fantasy or like sci-fi show where like the character can like, you know, pick up on others people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they're often like, you know, it offices, it's usually they're like trying on them.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Where it's like an adaptive strategy, you know, I mean, like, oh, I think we have a predisposition certainly to maybe more openness and more closeness, but I would wonder there's got to be a giant overlap with developmental.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like even in you'd row experiences in the womb, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know for me as a therapist, empathy is very helpful to attune to the person that's a friend of you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Of course, but if I was in my empathy all day, I would burn out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm pretty immediately.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a good idea.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a good idea.

[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, 100% and I think it cooks a lot of people and then it's kind of wasted and then totally will then you know that person It's like the most sensitive.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, is it a trauma thing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a personality disorder thing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a political thing or it's like are you just like [SPEAKER_00]: are you just burnt out like from the scroll, you know, because I think some people will feel numb, they'll feel dead on the inside, but some people feel raw, like a, like their raw nerve, like everything is raw to the touch that they see, and so I could totally see [SPEAKER_00]: that happening to go back to your question earlier, like, is modern discourse rules by, like, you know, whoever's the most sensitive, like, yeah, I think there's something to that, like, you know, like victimhood culture and consciousness and all that, but I think that a way that me putting myself out there, like, on my platforms, like writing this book, like, whatever, not that it's always been easy because nobody, you know, nobody likes to get trolled, nobody likes to [SPEAKER_00]: But the systematic exposure to it and like the careful and like the intentional exposure to it It's really me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It'd be just like care so much less About would be like liked by everyone for everything and I think that it's a super important skill for people to have it is in life You know, it's I mean, it's funny.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great though.

[SPEAKER_00]: I do thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not your clap That's so good [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but you know, it's it's a very empowering feeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very like freeing just because, you know, nobody likes everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if they say they do, I think they're a liar.

[SPEAKER_00]: You may maybe they're lying to themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even the idea that you can't handle someone disagreeing or disliking you.

[SPEAKER_01]: is it's going to make it so you repress truth in self-expression.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not going to be healthy in terms of your physiology either.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's lots of data to look at.

[SPEAKER_01]: that type of behavior and, you know, from childhood trauma, et cetera, like I used to study looking at autoimmune, et cetera, from that type of.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, something I think about all the time is we're like influencer economy.

[SPEAKER_00]: We live in.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, like, I just saw it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't, I don't even like want to like say his handle.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's basically it's some dude that is just recently like out of the closet.

[SPEAKER_00]: and his whole brand is like, and I'm quite, I'm not exaggerating at all but like his videos are like, I like men, but I'm not gay.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like this rejection of like gay culture and gay stereotypes.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so lazy, Christian.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't think so, I think, but I think it's more like he's come out of the closet less than a year ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's documenting his journey for all of us to see like on social media.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I actually, yeah, he's like, I'm not about like having gay friends or like a culture.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I want a partner, but it's like, I'm not going to be like those guys.

[SPEAKER_00]: over there, even though you are one of us by definition, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's very interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is actually very like, you want to date it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Probably don't have to help them.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's only, but the point is, is that this is, this is so something like a college or high school student that's coming out of the closet, would say, like, you know, because they're trying to figure out their identity, their gender expression, like there's all these dynamics going on, and but my concern for people who put themselves out there on social media like this is it's like, [SPEAKER_00]: Unless you have the resilience to do like an aggressive rebrand, I don't know, I don't think you're incentivized to like let yourself kind of like grow and like continue and like develop like on your journey like change yourself like you know, I have seen accounts just in the similar theme of like it's like these really like religious like attitudes or like [SPEAKER_00]: train it away and it's just kind of like I'm going to like all the evidence like points like how damaging that's going to be and it doesn't work and it's like you you know you have your little following and it's kind of like especially if you can start making a living off of it like I don't know I just don't see how it's like good for them is my point it's not even not like gain us per se like I think you could say this with like you know [SPEAKER_00]: any type of influence or like the people who like, you know, their their story becomes their mental health journey.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's certainly like, well, what are you going to do if you actually get properly like mitigated and you go into remission?

[SPEAKER_00]: Look, you're not exactly like the incentivized student.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'm going to done.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like what they saw someone's handle if it was like survivor of narcissists.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, who are you when you're done that?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like when you like a what point do you go forward?

[SPEAKER_01]: But that's why I think the identity with all these titles can be such a trap.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like you're saying, if you're getting paid to do it, then what is your likelihood that you're going to let it go?

[SPEAKER_01]: I do remember listening to a great podcast.

[SPEAKER_01]: on Christopher Ryan's podcast, it was called Tenjent, at least speaking, any interview to gay porn star, who started to like women again.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he was talking about how his audience was so sort of in love with the idea of him just being a gay porn star that when he decided that, well, when he started to feel like he was attracted to women again and he brought that forward, it was amazing the backlash he got.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, in terms of his own identity, but how they had him in this narrow box.

[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so it's interesting just to think about what you're saying.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's totally, well, this idea that, you know, this is maybe a problem reserved for like, news anchors or people with big public preferences, it'll be interesting to see if, you know, influencers of even if they're like smaller scale will have the freedom to go do, you know, or be someone or something else.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think they should be able to.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, I just as a therapist is somebody that like believes in the fluidity of yourself concept over a lifespan.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's super super important and maybe it's just another example of how like maybe social media isn't the the best thing ever for our mental health if it locks people in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so much of the correlation to increase in mental health can be kind of like directly plotted.

[SPEAKER_01]: with the advent of social media.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, our awareness has gone up.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think about how just the physiological impact of looking at a phone all day and constant dopamine hits and just what that does for us.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then how does that affect us relationally?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was listening to Scott Galaway and Esther Perrell speaking.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure if you saw that, I guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Essentially, a stair was saying, we're in a convenience culture, yet humans are everything but convenient.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you can get everything like your food delivered from your favorite restaurant to the couch, in the way you want it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then you expect relationships to be the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you expect them to be the same.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want some convenience in a relationship.

[SPEAKER_00]: You want some [SPEAKER_00]: People don't actually like that very much boring.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's boring, it's not quite as fun, so it's kind of an interesting meditation of it, because it's a fine line to walk.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I remember, like the Gottman research, [SPEAKER_00]: says that like you know you need five positive interactions to every negative interaction or the relationship will feel too negative.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I believe I remember learning some along the way that it's something like, but if it becomes more than 15 positive interactions or something to every negative, then it doesn't feel real.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like people don't actually like it very much.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not grounded.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's like to polyena.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so I think that's kind of interesting, you know, particularly like, you know, whether it's marriage or dating really no matter if you're in or out of a relationship, it's like, you think you want what you want it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But like, you sure?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, Yeah, well, I wonder if our capacity has become so low for any form of emotional.

[SPEAKER_01]: fluctuation that it actually is making us much worse at romantic relationships.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was actually thinking about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't have the day to for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And let's be honest, the divorce rate.

[SPEAKER_01]: It could get worse, but it's probably not going to get worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's already kind of at it.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like I would say bottom and it had shown signs of getting better.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm like, if you can't be bored, can you really be in love?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you can't just in in line at a Starbucks and not look at your phone, [SPEAKER_01]: be in a long-term relationship.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where I think this inability to pay attention is something in order to make a relationship work, you have to be able to pay attention to the space between you and the other person.

[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you also, there's this wonderful book, what's the writer, Sean and Iquist.

[SPEAKER_00]: She writes this book called Cold Tandereens.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it the subtitle is something like celebrating [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that even if you're in a position, you know, financially, culturally, where you can just have kind of like an endless, you know, menu of very stimulating, interesting events at the end of the day, you still got a shower.

[SPEAKER_00]: So gotta go to the gym, so gotta brush your teeth.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I got to get groceries, like no one is safe from all of that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that there's a lot of something she writes about in the book, is that it's something worth practicing to just kind of become enthusiastic about those little things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know for me, what I'm with someone I love and maybe that's like a partner, even just like my family or close friends, like go to the grocery store, it's not that bad.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, no, but it's in the connection that makes it, that makes it good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm curious for the people listening, who would you say that this book is for?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think everyone needs to read it so that they have the awareness of all the things and we can Yeah, I'll all speak for myself first, which is that [SPEAKER_01]: I think everyone should read this because we can all fall prey to what you're talking about, especially because it is like a language that is being spoken constantly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if we don't actually learn the nuance of it, we'll get called the thing, we'll become the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think you do an exceptional job of walking through the nuance of these things, [SPEAKER_01]: holding deep truths and being willing to tell us the truth that will ultimately liberate us.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's my testimony on this.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I really appreciate that.

[SPEAKER_00]: The book is dedicated.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's written in memory of my dad who passed away when I was 11.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I dedicated to anyone who is grieving or dealing with other inescapable problems of living.

[SPEAKER_00]: So to your point, that is kind of everybody.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody agrees.

[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody deals with these things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think that the book I think is especially interesting to people who absorb a lot of therapy content or mental health related content.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's actually on June 23, if you buy the book and enter your order number, you can get a guide for parents and teenagers, 100 and 9 questions.

[SPEAKER_00]: We came up with about the different kind of psycho-babel terms and kind of make connect you all, like how generative conversation.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's certainly interesting to undergraduate students or graduate students who are in psychology, whether it's research, really a clinical kind of specialty.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think the great thing about the book is you don't have to read it, cover to cover.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can kind of balance around the chapters or listen to it on Spotify or any of the audiobook platforms.

[SPEAKER_00]: about the terms that kind of intrigued you.

[SPEAKER_00]: I will say to your point that I've had some loved ones reach out to me personally since starting the book and they're just like, they have, I did not know that I was just using some of these.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think for me, I appreciate your acknowledgement and compliment because, you know, I've been just thinking about this for the last like two years, like, you know, like I literally wrote a book about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so for me, sometimes I think I underestimate how [SPEAKER_00]: how ubiquitous it is because I am pretty good you know it's turning like the shrink brain off like if I'm at a party and someone uses the term gaslighting and like an exaggerating way like it's funny like and I'm not gonna like, I'm not gonna like correct them like the whatever but I do think that you know maybe I'm not quite as present too like you know how often they're being misapplied.

[SPEAKER_00]: The last thing I'll say is that you know for those interested like [SPEAKER_00]: The spirit of the book is not this like, you know, and my content as well.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not this fingerwagon, like, that's not the correct definition of this term.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's more like, no, like, it's actually like a problem that people are misunderstanding this term, like they're making decisions about their work and their love lives and their relationships that are antithetical to like mental health and like being adaptive and like, like, carefully thinking things through and [SPEAKER_00]: I'm making it all fit together, and so it's more, for me, it's more of a medication and less of a supplement.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like I think it's an important thing that people know.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's awesome, man.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited that we got to chat, and you know, I just feel like we could dive into all of those.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God, I know.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have real subjects.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we definitely have to.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we need to dedicate an episode to that, and yeah, I really appreciate you, Joe.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for coming on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.