[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Mark Rose podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man, I've been connected to this wonderful lady for ten years.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[SPEAKER_02]: We might be a teenager.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're selling it, braiding a deck.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it might be longer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Louise, a jewel, and I go way back now.

[SPEAKER_02]: You are the president and founder of the Canadian Positive Psychology Association, which is where I went to your first, was it the first one?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're at the first, and I think you're at the second, and you're at several of the third.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had the pleasure of running a workshop one year, which was so fun in Toronto, but I wanted to have you on the podcast, because you are a trailblazer in the space of psychology, of healing, of mental health.

[SPEAKER_02]: You have a book called Why Are Your Brain For Confidence.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very excited to have you on here, because the problem has been set up perfectly by society that we are in [SPEAKER_02]: for sure the largest mental health crisis in the history of humanity.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we need solutions.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really excited to talk to someone who's been so immersed in that space and works with people and teaches people and you also are so much part of all the movements collectively on a national level and influencing internationally.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what does that look like?

[SPEAKER_02]: And how do we actually move the needle?

[SPEAKER_02]: So welcome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much and Mark, I have always admired your work over the years and I just feel so honored to be connected with you and thank you for inviting me here on your podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm so pumped to have you here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is these are conversations that we have anyways, so we might as well report one and share it, you know, and what's going on in the space of mental health is it's just a trotis it's sad it's there's just it's an emergency in so many levels and [SPEAKER_02]: think since the advent of pharmaceutical interventions in every aspect of health, we're no healthier than we were.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not to say that there isn't a place, but it certainly isn't working what we're doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you look at those traditional ways of dealing with mental illness, certainly the first route seems to be, well, let's get you on some medication.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not bad for someone who's kind of catatonic or unable to get out of bed and they need medication to be able to engage in their lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a time in a place for medication.

[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is when it's only medication that seems to be the route that is suggested for people and people don't know what other options there are in terms of how they could improve things for themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I tend to think that so if you're having a heart attack, you're going to want to go to the heart surgeon and [SPEAKER_00]: If you're in a really bad state and you need medication, then I think that's really great and can be very helpful for people.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then the next step that a heart surgeon does not do, that maybe another nutritionist or exercise physiologist would say was, well, what caused the heart attack?

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe we can go back and see what was your lifestyle?

[SPEAKER_00]: What were you eating?

[SPEAKER_00]: What were you were you exercising?

[SPEAKER_00]: Were you moving your body?

[SPEAKER_00]: What were your parents like?

[SPEAKER_00]: What, you know, did they have certain health issues?

[SPEAKER_00]: Is this could this have been something that was hereditary that you inherited in terms of your DNA that could be contributing to this health crisis in your life?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that doesn't always take place or we get they identify things that were from your childhood [SPEAKER_00]: that needs to be addressed, which I think it can be really helpful when we go through therapy and we can figure out, what is the actual cause of my depression?

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's get on some medication, but then let's understand what are the [SPEAKER_00]: causes and then let's work on through talk therapy and there's so many different kinds of therapies now that are so effective in people have to find the right therapy for them in terms of improving their own mental health that get them to a state of [SPEAKER_00]: being okay, where they can function.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember asking a psychologist once, how do you know the line between when you're just depressed, you know, in a depressed mood, or when you're actually in a clinical depression?

[SPEAKER_00]: And she said it's when you cannot cope with the regular stressors of life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was a really good advice because throughout my lifetime, when I have really, really go through really, really difficult times.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I call these kind of the Olympics of my mental health journey, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: When I'm going through a divorce when my husband died.

[SPEAKER_00]: These are kind of the Olympics of life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you think about it, [SPEAKER_00]: People who go to the Olympics, they don't fire all their coaches and say, well, I'm at the Olympics.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm good.

[SPEAKER_00]: They say, wow, this is a really big deal.

[SPEAKER_00]: I better get more coaches and get more people helping me at the Olympics.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's kind of how I look at mental health that sometimes you need that extra help.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you need a therapist.

[SPEAKER_00]: to get you through those really, really difficult times.

[SPEAKER_00]: When my husband died, I had never dealt with something like that before.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, my parents had died, but you know, that you kind of expect that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were in their nineties.

[SPEAKER_00]: They were, you know, I was okay with that struggle as sad as it was.

[SPEAKER_00]: But when my husband died, I didn't know how to manage that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when I went and got some help.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, so having that, [SPEAKER_00]: certainly can be helpful in your life to be able to say there's medication, there's therapy, but then beyond that, how do you maintain your mental health?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's the rule of positive psychology, which is to inform people about how do you stay in control of your life?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you stay resilient?

[SPEAKER_00]: How do you, what are all the tools you can use to cope better with life?

[SPEAKER_00]: so that you're not stressed out overwhelmed, burning out all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, you're happier, you're more in love, you're more engaged in your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good when you can reach those higher levels of well-being just for you because we have one life to live.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, isn't it wild that this is in taught in school like how to create like what is the science behind thriving humans what is it that they do instead we're really taught about I mean, you know, valuably we're taught about things like history, et cetera, but we're not taught about [SPEAKER_02]: What is it that Michael Jordan did every day?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like what is it that people who report having really exceptional mental health do every day?

[SPEAKER_02]: What is it about people who have no mental health issues or go through things like the loss of a partner and actually go through the natural process, of course, and actually come out stronger on the other end.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, which is, you know, you could have someone be best friends with someone else go to war together, experience the exact same things, and one person comes back and is somehow thriving and the other person isn't.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so there's clearly something, a set of behaviors, I would imagine there's epigenetics in there too.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, what do you, what do you think about that?

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's how we process the loss or the trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: So you could take a look at that trauma and say, [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I mean, I almost got blown up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And there are times where people relive these traumas, especially people who come back from war, people who've been back from about accident.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they frame it in a way that is terrifying and that they just keep reliving these things that happen to them, these traumatic incidents.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then if we can instead rewrite the story of what happened where I was brave, I was resilient.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sitting here in a chair right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: because I had the knowledge of how to get out of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I had a student once who was overweight in her opinion.

[SPEAKER_00]: She wasn't, she didn't seem that overweight to me, but she was healthy and normal to me, but to her, she was overweight.

[SPEAKER_00]: She always had extra weight on her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one day she opened up to me and she said, when I was sixteen, [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody knocked on the door and I was at home alone.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a man who said that he had to come into the house because he was measuring the hydro.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was doing, you know, when they come in and they see what the number is on the hydro and yet checking the meter.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she just knew that there was something up with that.

[SPEAKER_00]: you know, that it just didn't sound right to her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, well, my dad's in, you know, the shower right now, and that's where the meter is, you're gonna have to come back when, you know, when my dad's here and available to talk to you, but right now he's in the bathroom.

[SPEAKER_00]: and so she then shut the door and locked it in the guy laughed and it turned out she found out a few days later that this gentleman was actually a serial killer and he killed a girl in their community that could have been her and from that day forward she decided that because he had a type that she would gain weight [SPEAKER_00]: so that he would not be interested in her.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was her way of protecting her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she kept the weight on now she's in her forties and this was still the story.

[SPEAKER_00]: that she was telling herself that this weight protects her.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I said to her in that moment, I said, actually, you knew the danger.

[SPEAKER_00]: You already knew how to protect yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you didn't do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: You did it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Somehow you saw the signs.

[SPEAKER_00]: So no, you didn't need to put on the weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to keep the weight.

[SPEAKER_00]: you already have the knowledge and the tools to protect yourself against predators and the tears, the release in herself by changing that one story that she had held onto for so many years was just so cathartic for her and she was finally able to lose the weight after that.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's this story that we tell ourselves sometimes can be so powerful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that to her was empowering, that even in the face of what was actual danger, so she found out later, she was so empowered by her own new story.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: The evidence of her skill set of everything she was afraid of, she actually did.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is so interesting to see how our biography becomes destiny, how we have an experience of the past that now is like framed in our future as a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're always like trying to avoid, but yet we really end up avoiding life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I see that so much relationally, you know, is that what lives next to the thing you want love and connection is also [SPEAKER_02]: you usually are greatest pains.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if you haven't explored those pains, you won't walk towards that.

[SPEAKER_02]: You'll come up with all the reasons and unconsciously, you'll date unavailable people, you'll do whatever, you'll drink and make bad decisions.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what you're ultimately seeking is trying to walk towards this, but you don't know how and I think of like how brilliant is the unconscious mind that it puts on weight [SPEAKER_02]: to try to protect ourselves from being a target.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I could see that obviously is often true for women after they've experienced some sort of abuse or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'll make myself less attractive, quote unquote, you know, this idea.

[SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll protect myself.

[SPEAKER_02]: We like put this layer.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you know, we talked about this just for a second before we hit record, but then you also have these confounding factors of nutrition like not only am I eating [SPEAKER_02]: and then keeping weight on in my body's shifting how it handles food and nutrition, but I'm actually eating highly processed things.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've felt those corn syrup, which are biologically designed to hijack my sense of satiety and all of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have like a system that's actually operating against you, but I always think like the unexplored or unresolved trauma [SPEAKER_02]: or pain or whatever, everyone has the right to whatever their thing is is the doorway for the addiction to that type of food or to alcohol or to, because, and I'm really speaking from my own experience of myself, which was like, oh yeah, it was like I loved chocolate milk, but I only drank it so much in excess while one sugars highly addictive, but I used sugar as a way to soothe the experience of not belonging.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when I dealt with the belonging part, [SPEAKER_02]: And this idea I have a similar weight story is like I'll just keep weight on, which keeps perpetuating my belonging wound.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know who I am without this struggle.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: What does it like to not?

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I finally resolved what was it below there, I stopped being in the cycles of putting weight on, taking it off, putting weight on.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like I had to grieve that that was my mechanism.

[SPEAKER_02]: Does that make sense?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's like the food in the alcohol is the solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're feeling a certain way and the food makes you feel better.

[SPEAKER_00]: The alcohol makes you feel better.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's the solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: And until you actually find a healthier solution, but you need to decide, you need to make that decision that you're not going to be addicted [SPEAKER_00]: anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a, I fell into an addiction during the pandemic of social media.

[SPEAKER_00]: I found because I was home alone.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was isolated, feeling lonely.

[SPEAKER_00]: There I was on the phone all the time.

[SPEAKER_00]: And realize after a while, I think that I'm kind of addicted to what's going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: It became my solution to the isolation.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think we have to be able to find new solutions that can help us, but figure out why, why am I turning to that as the solution?

[SPEAKER_00]: What is the real reason behind it?

[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it was the isolation.

[SPEAKER_00]: So how do I deal with the isolation and find a new solution?

[SPEAKER_00]: But sometimes we don't know what it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we just feel better with the alcohol or whatever it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't ever explore what they act.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like being enough, you know, you need to like be your own functional medicine doctor, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And figure out what are the underlying causes for the behavior?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that the alcohol is addictive.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's that the alcohol is the solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: We need to find a different solution, that's all.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I like about, you know, exploring some of these things, for example, when I'm exercising, I feel great.

[SPEAKER_00]: I feel fantastic.

[SPEAKER_00]: So instead of turning to the phone now, I go and exercise and it's fantastic.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the more and more that I started to win myself off of this, you know, being on the phone, the better I felt.

[SPEAKER_00]: and I just kept deciding and liking alcohol like I think you need to decide either I'm gonna be miserable watching this political news show for the next hour or I'm gonna go and exercise or I'm gonna talk to a friend or I'm gonna go for a walk outside in nature I'm gonna go skiing or you know the more I just I just have to make a choice and make a decision in that moment do I want to feel good or do I want to feel bad [SPEAKER_00]: And just like alcoholics have to do that every day, do I want a drink or do I not want a drink?

[SPEAKER_00]: And they make a choice to go to alcoholics anonymous.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a choice in a decision.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think every day, [SPEAKER_00]: We need to choose the behaviors, the thoughts, the feelings that put us in a good space.

[SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the times were taught that we are just victims of our mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're a victim, so therefore.

[SPEAKER_00]: But instead, there's a lot you can do and research shows is like, you know, forty percent of what contributes to our well-being is something that is controllable by us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that, again, is managing our emotions, managing our cognitions and the way we think about things, and our behaviors.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it's a conscious decision sometimes when you feel addicted to some of these things that are not good for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Which makes so much sense that it's easy to get captured by the doom scroll.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's easy to get captured by all go to do something on social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: And all of a sudden, like I'm watching off-roading trucks roll.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm watching like kids getting hurt is a great Instagram account.

[SPEAKER_02]: I sound like a bad person, but it's funny.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a really funny hurt.

[SPEAKER_02]: Did you say kids getting hurt?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like a toddler is getting hit hitting the baseball into their dad's nuts and like, you know, they're falling off things.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're all survivors don't worry everyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: But my point being that there's like something about the elation, the emotional [SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of extremes of these things that keep us going.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the algorithm now is so good.

[SPEAKER_02]: It actually will just keep feeding you content that will keep you on there.

[SPEAKER_02]: It actually doesn't care who you follow anymore, which is really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, just deliver you more content.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this is why behavior of social media users is changing quite significantly.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like they don't tend to follow content.

[SPEAKER_02]: They consume anymore because the algorithm will just feed them it.

[SPEAKER_02]: and being able to recognize, and I was think the best question to ask ourselves is, what in my life do I not have a choice about no longer being in a relationship with?

[SPEAKER_02]: If it's something like alcohol, we'll come up with a reason like, oh, I can't stop drinking, I have a bachelor party, and then I have a wedding, and then I have it's wine Wednesday, and then [SPEAKER_02]: And so we have a logical reason why we're going to continue to do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't hurt me like I'm fine, but we can feel deeper below that we actually have a hard time saying no to it, just like a living three months of our lives without it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that is an important question to ask about things like social media and things about anything.

[SPEAKER_02]: As all of a sudden, you're going, if I don't have true choice, [SPEAKER_02]: Then that means I'm in a codependent relationship with that thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sourcing my safety and is why my wife and I define it in our book is where you're sourcing safety and security from someone or something outside and it compromises your own needs once a desire.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like you were saying it's a solution.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's a solution to something that actually requires life affirming choices instead of, you know, that binary of choices or either life affirming or death affirming when I used to shoot tobacco long, long ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: I remember someone presenting that to me, like your choice is death affirming.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, oh shit, that's an interesting way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we use these coping mechanisms, but what you're talking about in positive psychology really talks about is, what are positive coping mechanisms that are life affirming?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but not only that I think going back to something you said earlier, the algorithms make it highly addicting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, just like they manufacture food in a certain way to make it so addictive that you just can't stop eating, you have to eat the whole bag.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the same with social media.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the same with some drugs, you know, think about drugs like meth and vitamin and, you know, other kinds of drugs are so addictive.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying that it's easy to stop being addictive and that you can just start doing something over here and you're not going to be addicted anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you have to almost go through what an addict would go through if you want to stop the things that are really harming your life.

[SPEAKER_00]: If social media and Zoom scrolling every single day is taking away from you making a living, you know, from you building your business, from you having good relationships with your family, then, and that's how I treated it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did hypnosis.

[SPEAKER_00]: I went to counseling.

[SPEAKER_00]: I bought a lock box to lock my phone.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just continued all notifications.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did all the things that an addict would do.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it is difficult.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why people keep doing it because they don't know how to get out of it.

[SPEAKER_00]: They know they don't want to do it anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I think these things are so addictive, and that's kind of the definition of addiction.

[SPEAKER_00]: As you keep doing something that you know is harmful, [SPEAKER_00]: And yet you just for some reason keep doing it to yourself.

[SPEAKER_00]: I have a friend who says, well, just stop doing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not that easy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's really not.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I quit so many things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you're right with this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love that your friend said it's, you know, it's life doing life affirming or death affirming.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right, death affirming, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's death affirming, like cigarette smoking, or not exercising can also be death affirming, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's really interesting.

[SPEAKER_00]: We don't realize that we're doing some of those things.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then sometimes if you add those life affirming activities into your life, [SPEAKER_00]: The other things start to fall away.

[SPEAKER_00]: So for me, when if I'm up at five o'clock, I just get out of bed.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't scroll.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just decide I'm getting out of bed and I'm exercising.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I think, oh great, I have more than an hour because normally I do like thirty or forty five minutes of exercising.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now I have like an hour and a half of time to exercise and do more and I can listen to a good podcaster.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, something that's actually informing me, giving me more information about health or life or business, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: It's all productive work for me after that.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I don't feel like scrolling anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't feel like watching that political broadcast on something because I just feel too good.

[SPEAKER_02]: I share recently that I don't watch the news.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't do it from a mental health perspective.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't find it productive.

[SPEAKER_02]: And often what I'll get in response to that from some people is that it's a privilege to not watch the news.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought this is really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: One person was interacting with me saying, well, I feel guilty not watching it.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I watch it because it's a privilege to not watch it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, wow, you've like really used virtuosity and righteousness and morality in there to feed the justification of the self abandonment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now granted, I understand that if there was an emergency going on next to you, you need to know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: If there's a war going on in your country, you probably want to know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I understand that I don't live in a place where that's happening and that is a privilege.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: And not watching the news doesn't mean uninformed.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's also the sort of misconception.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I think at what point do we actually recognize that we are often committed to the chaotic feeling of watching these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's why doomsgrowing is like we're feeding more angry content to people.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it just keeps people addicted coming back.

[SPEAKER_02]: I need to know what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't realize with that our dopamine's being fed with this.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then the self abandonment is being justified with something like, and the guilt is being justified with this idea of privilege.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not mitigating the principle of privilege.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what's fascinating is I was watching a therapist recently say, in the whole time that we've been trying to destigmatize mental health.

[SPEAKER_02]: We've actually made mental health worse.

[SPEAKER_02]: In that, yes, there's been more awareness brought forward about mental health and anxiety and depression and all of these things.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what's also happened is that people have developed this therapy language.

[SPEAKER_02]: where everything is narcissism and I have anxiety and I am bipolar and I'm ADHD and so what it's also done is actually made it so that these young people are clinging to this language where we didn't have this language when we were young you just like actually fell off your bike it wasn't called trauma you know like you [SPEAKER_02]: I mean back then you know you would just go out at which I think there's so many funny means going around now where they're like wait so when you were young you went out on your bike and you just came back before the sun came down like what was the timing and they're like between five and nine between five and nine like that's such a broad [SPEAKER_02]: But you know, we had the same thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, you went, you were home by dinner, which was five, thirty-ish or something like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: But when you were home, you were off like in the forest, doing stuff with your friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we were doing some bad stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I say all that because I think there's a lot of truth to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember there was a large controversy in the conversation of psychology that the word trauma was being misused that we were calling everything trauma.

[SPEAKER_02]: And this became like an online debate I saw between quote unquote therapy influencers.

[SPEAKER_02]: which I was like, I'm gonna bow out of this one.

[SPEAKER_02]: I usually bow into most, but I bowed out of that one.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think there's a lot of truth to what that therapist was saying, which I wish I could remember her name, but I'll make sure I link it in the show notes.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was such a brilliant.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like, oh yeah, in this effort to make things better, have we made things worse?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think if you add social media to that, which is what made this therapy conversation go more viral where people were being celebrated for [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, I have mental health issues.

[SPEAKER_02]: Great.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is all important.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's not a binary what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's complexity to this but that we actually have maybe gotten a little addicted to being in a state of suffering so that will be noticed and will be significant will be special.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know I set up a few landmines in there so you don't have to walk on them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But what do you think about that?

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think people just want to have control over their lives and if they can label something and say, Oh, right, it's the trauma that's caused all of this or now I get my behavior because [SPEAKER_00]: I had this trauma in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it can be useful if it then brings you into action.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what my concern is when it makes people helpless.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I remember talking to Dr.

Martin Seligman, who is broadly known as the founding father of positive psychology about this idea of labeling.

[SPEAKER_00]: things.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we had the same discussion with regards to doesn't make people feel hopeless.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that if I have this then therefore for the rest of my life, I'm going to have to live this way because of this.

[SPEAKER_00]: diagnosis or label.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what I really hope that people will do is take that information and say, huh, I wonder if that early childhood experience is now affecting my life so much that maybe I need to really figure that out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do something.

[SPEAKER_00]: Go for therapy.

[SPEAKER_00]: get it resolved in my head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I'll never resolve it in my head, but maybe there's ways that I can release it from my body.

[SPEAKER_00]: We know that the body holds a lot of trauma.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that it can be helpful to the sense that to the degree that doesn't get us into action, to actually allow us to engage in behaviors that help us.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we feel some sense of agency around our own mental health and improving our own mental health as opposed to going down that hopeless road.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I feel sometimes that will say, well, I'm this.

[SPEAKER_00]: So therefore, everything has to change around me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, well, okay, if you have this diagnosis, what does that mean for you?

[SPEAKER_00]: How are you still going to interact with the world?

[SPEAKER_00]: How can you still maintain your mental health, what are the strategies, that you could actually engage in, and how can you make your life better?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's what I hope people will be able to do with.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like the awareness of a potential label, it doesn't have to be an identity that you stay in.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the trap of all labels.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the trap of the language we say about ourselves when we're young and a parent doesn't show up and we go, I guess I wasn't unconsciously ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't worthy of being shown up for.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I must be useless or hopeless and so now I'm going to choose my relational dynamics based that validate, continue to validate this unconscious identity.

[SPEAKER_02]: I saw recently a part of a men's group and one of the guys in the men's group sent this really interesting Instagram account, which I promise is much better than my kids getting hurt one.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the account was this guy who has bipolar disorder.

[SPEAKER_02]: who has said committed to like a sister death, a sister dying.

[SPEAKER_02]: And in the conversations about that, he sent out an invitation to strangers to have dinner with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So now he's had dinner with hundreds and thousands.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think that may be getting a thousand, but hundreds of strangers.

[SPEAKER_02]: And he's having these conversations with them, and it's gone very viral, which makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it has that sort of element to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I thought this is really fascinating.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're having a debate in the group, because we were talking about like, how now this identity has now created this beautiful strangers reaching out.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, and he uses the treatment resistant.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, I have a friend who had treatment, resistant depression, and when any ended up actually having a radical remission from due to an MDMA and cell cyber therapy session with their internal family parts, internal family systems change, life changed after doctors and everyone told her, you're destined, this is your life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so of course, hopeless doesn't, you know, everything is hearing them.

[SPEAKER_02]: But then when she went through this avenue of work of a civil servant and then doing this session, she had a radical remission.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I just thought of this guy when I was reading that, I was like, well, first of it's like, there's no hope that it will ever change.

[SPEAKER_02]: But now it's been the bridge to connection and would that be a beautiful story if all of a sudden he says, I'm not going to do it because I had, but maybe he'll do it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I still thought, like, what a trap this potentially is.

[SPEAKER_00]: But it sounds like it has had a thousand dinners that he's putting off.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's putting off.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's been all in the company, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's, oh, it's all in the government.

[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[SPEAKER_00]: When you think about, because I wonder, so he's still feeling extremely depressed, is that the diagnosis?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because when we think about when you said treatment resistance, I think have dinner with strangers.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good treatment.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's in the opposite of a depression connection.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like that seems like he has found his own treatment, but maybe not.

[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe if he still knows, I mean, that's the if he tells us he's not going to do it is the hook going, you know, but maybe he's holding on to the story that he is treatment resistant.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I mean.

[SPEAKER_00]: So rather than receiving all the joy from and the purpose that he's engaged in with all of these dinners that he's having, he's still in the story of, you know, there's I am hopeless.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is nothing that can be done for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore all I can do now is medically assisted in dying.

[SPEAKER_00]: we call it meeting in Canada and you know, that's it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that has to be my course.

[SPEAKER_00]: And until he changes the story, which is, wow, look what he has created.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for himself and probably thousands of people are benefiting from this.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's going viral for a reason because I think people can relate to this like generosity of a stranger in the power of it.

[SPEAKER_02]: The power of community to heal things is like if you're in a family and you go through a trauma or you're in a group of friends and there's a trauma you experience and the group of friends says, let's hold this with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be optimized in a very different way.

[SPEAKER_02]: And now I think when you consider like what is the stuff that most heals people, it is love, it's connection, it's being held, it's a hug, it's all this somatic experience of love, of emotion, of knowing that you're not alone.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think we all have this idea of that we all hope for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We all hope to have a community like that in France as well, who's a psychotherapist has this beautiful quote where he says that we spend our lives looking for a place to belong, but at some point.

[SPEAKER_02]: we have to become the place of welcome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we go from searching to being the home.

[SPEAKER_02]: And what a beautiful moment that is when we decide to instead of chasing it, we become it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then what that facilitates for the other people who are chasing it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's very true.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think sometimes too, when we have these bad experiences, we don't want experience in the experience of again.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so we cut ourselves off and was, oh, it's not that important.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that kind of love, not that important.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just focus over here because your brain is really saying you're never doing that again.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're never going to feel that pain again.

[SPEAKER_00]: So better just to stay safe.

[SPEAKER_00]: over here.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I think that can block people from the connection that they're looking for.

[SPEAKER_00]: And they can lead totally perfectly good lives too, doing that as well, but never really fully experiencing the full range of the beautiful life, including all the difficult things that happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think my life has been [SPEAKER_00]: very rich and we do explore now the psychologically rich life can be something that leads us to higher levels of wellbeing than just a joyful life because when things happen that are good and when things happen that are bad [SPEAKER_00]: It still enriches our lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: It still brings us things.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when my husband died, there were people who did things for me that were mind-blowing, that if you had asked me in a million years, that this person would come forward and do something that was so huge to help me.

[SPEAKER_00]: I would have said, no, no, that's that would never happen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then stuff like that happened.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you think, wow, the generosity of a friend to do something like that for me is a powerful, powerful feeling that would have never happened had I not gone through this tragedy.

[SPEAKER_00]: So now I have this tragedy that's [SPEAKER_00]: because so much grief.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have this beautiful show of generosity and kindness that helped me and my daughters at a time that was so bad that when I think of that, that the feelings of joy and love [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, enter my body.

[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I would have never experienced that that high of a high had I not been at this low of a low.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think all experiences are valuable.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't like some of the stuff that's going on right now.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if the news is pretty after.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you were talking about the news earlier in the privilege of not watching the news.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I, um, I think, well, that, okay, that's an interesting perspective, which I appreciate everybody's perspective on things.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for me, I say to myself, how will it help?

[SPEAKER_00]: me or the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think if you're reading a newsletter that has a compilation of, you know, what's going on in the world, I think that's a lot more effective for me than the doom scrolling and the CNN that just uses the same talking points over and over and over again for, you know, seventy two hours kind of thing, which is can be debilitating after a while.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think I always say to myself, does watching the news improve things [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it doesn't, it makes it worse.

[SPEAKER_00]: It takes my time away from my business, from my family.

[SPEAKER_00]: It also makes me feel bad, so I'm not able to do as much in my business.

[SPEAKER_00]: My business is helping other people be happier, having higher levels of mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: My, my business is helping business people create work environments.

[SPEAKER_00]: that improve psychological safety for everybody, thousands of people in the workplace and around the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: So if watching the news takes me away from helping others do that, then no, it's not a privilege, it's not helping.

[SPEAKER_00]: And also, I think to myself, there's nothing I can do.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think, well, what can I do to help the world then if the world is falling apart?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm much more productive when I focus on that.

[SPEAKER_00]: What am I going to do to help the world?

[SPEAKER_00]: And watching the news is not contributing to that.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, I sort of see it differently in the sense that, you know, it's more helpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: if I'm not watching, and more of a privilege for me to help other people when I'm not watching the news.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's such a great reframe.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of the time will be addicted to the conversation about what's happening in the world while our own world is not in order.

[SPEAKER_02]: That becomes a bit of a distraction from, I think, really brilliantly, unconsciously, a great distraction from the work that we need to do in our own lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and it's easy to say, I can't do it because something's going on over there and that can be valid.

[SPEAKER_02]: But also how often do we, like I, I was talking to a friend recently, who's in her seventies and she said to me, oh my gosh, did you see the news?

[SPEAKER_02]: Someone was killed like across the country somewhere else in a robbery.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, no.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't need to know that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it just is so invaluable to, and it will shift, it shifts by like a motion will state.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm like, is that actually serving the mission I'm in and what I'm on and don't get me wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've certainly been captured by emotionality and a lot of things, especially in the last four years.

[SPEAKER_02]: But can I decide the nutritional value of the information I'm bringing in so that I can put out a higher nutritionally valuable information?

[SPEAKER_02]: So I've not thought about it, so I like that reframe.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I had a real revelation as I was trying to get off the social media because I wasn't addicted [SPEAKER_00]: to the social media, I was addicted to the feelings that I had when I was watching it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I was watching that political news, I was angry.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was a moment where I said, wow, it's feeding my anger.

[SPEAKER_00]: What am I so angry about?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then that was a real pivotal moment for me to say, what's making you angry?

[SPEAKER_00]: And then there was so much that unfolded from there.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, the watching in the social media was the solution.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it was keeping me an anger.

[SPEAKER_00]: But what was I angry about?

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I was able to ask, again, it was my own functional medicine doctor when it came to my own mental health.

[SPEAKER_00]: When I asked for that, then not when the healing began.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was able to actually heal what the problem was.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what was I so angry about?

[SPEAKER_00]: So, and of course anger, it's part of my DNA because I'm Sicilian.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, does everyone for Mary were?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Italian.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just got expressive.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Latin.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm fiery.

[SPEAKER_02]: What if Irish people get?

[SPEAKER_00]: I drink.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, for me, forgiveness was so powerful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I know a lot of people say, well, I'm never going to forgive that person.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not forgiveness is not good for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And yet for me, it was so powerful.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I get it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I try to think, and this is something that I'm working on right now is [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of people who, I mean, I've seen the power forgiveness, where I can truly forgive somebody and I can let it go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Man, it's gone.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's so good when that happens.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there's a lot of people who say, wait, that person abused me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what that person did is not forgivable.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, therefore, they should not be forgiven.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't forgive people to condone what they did.

[SPEAKER_00]: I forgive people for me so that I can release it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then I thought, well, maybe there's another word that we can use to allow people to truly let it go.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it could be something that is radical acceptance.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I accept [SPEAKER_00]: that that happened to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was not right.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I can see how that person did what they did.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I might have some sort of empathy for that person or whatever understanding.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't condone it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want them to come near me again.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're not going to be in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I need to move on now and leave that wherever I'm going to leave it, but outside of me, so not angry about it anymore.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that a lot of what happens to us in mental illness is this idea that we can't let things go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and somehow letting it go is condoning or saying that was okay, which is such a misconception.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not true.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's what makes us hold on to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, even the anger, you know, I've worked with people where years after they go through a breakup, where someone cheated on them.

[SPEAKER_02]: Their story is like, look how you left me and destroyed.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so they actually can't pick up their lives.

[SPEAKER_02]: They can't find a new loving relationship because then the evidence isn't still here of the rubble you left behind.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, [SPEAKER_02]: okay well first off that's like not the actual best if you want to get back at them get like I always say like don't don't just get a revenge body get a revenge soul like I'm so alive that they can't help but see it but do it for you like use the anger use it as a way of transmuting into expansion and growth and like how hot is it when someone's in alignment with their purpose and has access to their voice like [SPEAKER_02]: We all know when someone's like, that's not okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: How you spoke to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: We're kind of like, yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so now, it's hot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so that become that person, become the person that has boundaries who doesn't deviate.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, and that's where we're talking about, you know, earlier it's like, how do you hold before we hit record?

[SPEAKER_02]: But it's like, how do you hold the complexity of having gone through something?

[SPEAKER_02]: and using what you've gone through to transform your life without saying that it was okay what happened.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you understand?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I, when I've studied positive psychology when I do my masters degree, I found out that women were twice as likely as men.

[SPEAKER_00]: to become depressed.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, why?

[SPEAKER_00]: Why is that?

[SPEAKER_00]: And luckily, there was a scientist at Yale University who actually delved into that and said, too, we figure out why women are, you know, that twice the incidence of depression as men.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she determined that it was rumination.

[SPEAKER_00]: that women have more of a bruminative style and so they something happens and they think about it over and over and this is why people even years later are still running it through their head and I thought well I'm gonna I'm gonna write a course [SPEAKER_00]: on how to cure a rumination because I, when I learned that, I ended up training myself to stop ruminating because I always say that I want a gold medal and that rumination Olympics.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the nineties, I was, I ruminated about everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just kept thinking about stuff over and over.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've ruminated.

[SPEAKER_02]: I used to be a ruminated.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so what I did a survey before I created this course and I asked, what are you illuminating about and the number one thing was an injustice?

[SPEAKER_00]: and injustice.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's why, you know, when you think about women who were cheated on, what are they still thinking about with that guy that was an injustice?

[SPEAKER_00]: And he, I deserved to have justice because what he did was wrong and it was a betrayal.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why sometimes forgiveness can be very powerful because you can say, [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, you know, I forgive that person and I'm gonna let it go.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I think there has to be an acceptance of, yeah, it happened to me.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's not right that it happened to me, but I understand that people are flawed.

[SPEAKER_00]: that they do things that are wrong, that they might not be capable.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I remember my mother did a number of things that I really carried with me into my adulthood.

[SPEAKER_00]: And one day I just thought I need to forgive my mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what I came to the realization to was she was not capable of [SPEAKER_00]: emotionally showing up the way I needed her to be in my life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when I kind of forgave her for that, to say, Mom, you know what, you just didn't have the emotional capacity.

[SPEAKER_00]: to do the things that I need it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that's okay.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's all right, Mom.

[SPEAKER_00]: And that was so powerful for me to see the failures that people can have that people are not perfect.

[SPEAKER_00]: People are not always good at everything.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they screw up.

[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe they are narcissists and mean people and cruel people.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if I can [SPEAKER_00]: Connect empathetically somehow, not empathetically, but me with compassion.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which doesn't mean permission or no, not condoning.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not her mission, but if I can say, yeah, that person, like they're super mean and well, that's very sad for them that they go around in their life being mean to people.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have that.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have that.

[SPEAKER_00]: They do.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's really sad for them.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to empathize with that or have some compassion for that and then let it go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm only hurting myself when I don't, when I, when I keep thinking about it over and over, it only hurts me.

[SPEAKER_00]: They're, they're having a great time over there.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, drinking my ties, celebrating, okay, you know, I'm thinking about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is it right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I know it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it would be a narcissist.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought this, like, somebody did something that was really mean to me not long ago.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I was so mad about it.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was so upset.

[SPEAKER_00]: I thought this is really, really awful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I saw them living their lives.

[SPEAKER_00]: They don't even care.

[SPEAKER_00]: So why do I care?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, why should I care?

[SPEAKER_00]: They've gone off to live their life and they're all happy and do it stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: So why do I have to still be sitting here in the anger when they don't care?

[SPEAKER_00]: So I think this idea of letting go is, you know, is to be so powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: So powerful.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just releases us.

[SPEAKER_02]: We almost like let go of an anchor and then now we can be with life.

[SPEAKER_02]: Better informed and with better direction.

[SPEAKER_02]: I absolutely love you and the way you see the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I know we could talk for hours.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's be honest.

[SPEAKER_02]: But for people who are listening first, thank you for being on for being so generous with your time.

[SPEAKER_02]: For people listening, where can they find more view, where can they find more about [SPEAKER_02]: the remmonation, also your book I know is on Amazon, but it's everywhere.

[SPEAKER_00]: If they want to read my book, and I wrote about confidence because I honestly think that when we can live a courageous life with confidence, we go up and do the things we want to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so that's why I wrote the book, but they can reach me at Louise at jewel.com.

[SPEAKER_00]: Jules Spell, J-E-W-E-L-L with two owls, and they can find out about me.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd love to hear from people.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to hear what they thought about some of the things I said, because I think through connecting, through engaging with people, I learned so much about what's needed in the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: I love to connect with people and see what's going on with them and see where we can take things.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Canadian Postal Psychology Association is at cppa.ca and they can find out more about what we're doing at the Canadian Postal Psychology Association.

[SPEAKER_00]: So that's how you can get into it with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're a gift.

[SPEAKER_02]: Gift to the world.

[SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for your time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mark, you are a gift and I still love you and thank you so much for having me on the show.

[SPEAKER_00]: I just love talking to you.

[SPEAKER_00]: And as you say, we could have taken a few more hours.

[SPEAKER_00]: But next time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

[SPEAKER_00]: Take care.