We target facilities that produce Nylon 6/6, which is in all of our airbags and our electric cars and it's in sports apparel, you know, skis, you name it it, it's in computers.

So some of that N2O that we target is in what we call the adipic acid or the Nylon 66 space.

So when I, when I think of Climbco, I think of that focus initially like be the best at this, you know, get the reputation, get the clients.

And then those clients wanted us to ask us to diversify.

You know, you've done so well with this Bill Klein Co.

Can you help us in other areas?

Right?

32100 What if the next 45 minutes could unlock the business strategy, funding playbooks and mindset to scale climate solutions?

Welcome to climate CEO.

It's the podcast from entrepreneurs for impact or EFI.

As the cool kids say, this is a master class for builders who turn ideas into impact or planet and profit.

I'm Chris Wedding, ACEO coach, investor, founder and professor.

Each week I interview CE OS and investors in climate tech and clean energy.

That sounds good.

Follow on your podcast app and never miss an episode.

All right, let's get started.

My guest today is Bill Fletterbach, President and CEO at Kleinco.

Kleinco is an award-winning leader in decarbonizationandaninc.com Best Workplaces Company since 2009.

Yes, that's correct.

Not 2019.

Since 2009, they've evolved from a pioneer in nitrous oxide abatement projects to a global leader in the environmental commodities market.

Bill is a Sustainability Hero Award winner for 2025, former executive with MGM and Axert and an active member of the Rotary Club whose Principles for Guiding principles he implements across Climb Co as well.

I'm going to read those to you right now.

You'll hear lots more wisdom from Bill at the end of the podcast.

So, you know, look TuneIn for him being a Climb Co CEO, climate CEO, basically, or as a, you know, a person with some good leadership tips as well.

Good dude.

All right, number one, is it the truth?

Number 2, is it fair to all concerned #3 will it build goodwill and better relationships?

And four, will it be beneficial to all concern?

Sounds like good wisdom for life or business.

All right, here we go.

Bill Fletterbach, Co founder and CEO of Climb Co Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Chris.

Great to be here.

OK, let's start with a giant number which is 45,000,000 tons of greenhouse gases removed or avoided in euros kind of firms history.

Unpack that for us.

Yeah.

So we, we, so we like to to gauge our impact, Chris.

So we talked about the amount of metric tons of CO2 equivalent removed from the atmosphere.

That to us is a guidepost and you know, I climbed could we talk a lot about harmony?

Harmony means how are we avoiding or removing that CO2?

We believe in stopping the molecule before it goes into the atmosphere or technology avoidance, but we also believe in understand certainly that there's quite a bit of CO2 gases in the atmosphere.

So how can we draw that down and sequester it?

So, you know, between technology avoidance and and nature based removals, that's our harmony, you know, but today since Climbco was started, the ticker changes everyday, but I think we're right around 45,000,000 metric tons.

So that that's a significant impact that I'm proud of Chris.

Yeah, well, for folks not watching the the video here, I can see the smile, which I'm sure I'm sure is similar across your team of 100 or so folks working towards being a big numbers like this.

I also appreciate that you're you're targeting, you know, mitigation and you know, avoidance or removal, let's say.

And I'm going to ask you what you guys do exactly in a second.

But just to say that that's one reason that that I Co founded tariffs at years ago to move donor capital to, to pre purchase carbon removals, recognizing even if our mitigation is perfect, we still have had had have admitted so many million times that that's, that's looks like a baked in temperature rise already.

So you, you, you got to do both is a is the .100%.

So let's, let's go to climb Co.

I know there's a long list of things you all do that you've as you've evolved over the last 1617 years.

Which of those buckets would you have audiences focused on the most?

You know, I, I would say when we started the company, Chris, there's, there's been a lot of talk lately about super pollutants, you know, at, at COP 29, you know, that was a big push by the Biden administration with John Podesta, you know, negotiating with countries that didn't even include super pollutants or like nitrous oxide or, you know, different refrigerant gases or sulfur hexafluoride.

There are some countries that don't even include super pollutants in their baseline.

You know, so a foundational project type for Climbco was looking at that super pollutant of nitrous oxide.

And still to this day, it's one of the areas that's foundational for us like we, we, we proved ourselves there.

We got to know the industry.

We look at all the sources of, of nitrous oxide on the industrial side, not, not on the agricultural emissions from the fields for from nitrification.

That's also very important.

But we wanted to go into the exhaust duct where we could get large sources of nitrous oxide at a reasonable marginal cost and destroy that and convert that N2O of nitrous oxide into nitrogen and oxygen, which is obviously components of the of the atmosphere, you know, critical components.

So it's, you know that those are, those are catalyst technologies that go into facilities like ammonia nitrate on the agricultural space, you know, the production of ammonia nitrate, the production of ammonia nitrate also for mining, you know, in the explosives industry.

And it also we target facilities that produce nylon 6/6, which is in all of our airbags and our electric cars.

And it's in sports apparel, you know, skis, you name it it, it's in computers.

So some of the N2O that we target is in what we call the dipic acid or the nylon 66 space.

So when I, when I think of Climb Co, I think of that focus initially, like be the best at this, you know, get the reputation, get the clients.

And then those clients wanted us to ask us to diversify.

You know, you've done so well with this Bill Klein Co.

Can you help us in other areas?

Right.

I, I sometimes, sometimes when I talk to entrepreneurs, you know, I, I do talk about don't be everything to everybody.

Do what you can do really, really well.

And, and that's how we started, Chris.

And then you know that that that super pollutant work also went into R11 and R12 refrigerant collection and destruction.

So we got heavily involved with that.

You know, methane is still a super pollutant.

It's when I think of an N2O, it's 273 times stronger than CO2 today.

You know, methane as you know, it's still right around 25, some of the refrigerants that we used to collect and destroy or still do, or a 12,000 times stronger than CO2, you know, so we've always a real focus on that.

That's the bang for the buck.

But again, like we said, you know, it was also this realization that we were happy heavy technology focused.

You know, it could be some of our projects included 7000 milking cows in California where we converted methane to energy.

But again, it was, it was, it was very heavy focused.

And then we was with the realization that our life is all about harmony, that we really needed to think a little bit more about natural solutions as well.

And that's where we migrated in part.

Part of our access into that space was we're working with an amazing company called 3 Green Tree in Vancouver, just amazing people, great cultural fit, pH, DS in forestry, doing it right.

We're outsourcing a lot of work to them.

As we started to get into the nature based side because our clients were asking us again, clients that trusted us started to ask us to get into that space.

We ultimately acquired 3 Green Tree and that was a cornerstone of our nature based team out of Vancouver and we've grown that ever since.

All right.

So you you started with the refrigerant and nitrous oxide reduction destruction back in the very beginning like 15-17 years ago.

Yeah, we, we started in 2000 and eight, 2009 with nitrous oxide.

So there was no market, you know.

But before Climb Co, I was working under the Kyoto Protocol, under the clean development mechanisms of the Kyoto Protocol, of which, as you know, the the US was not a signature.

But I was working overseas that that's what took me to Mexico and and also Eastern Europe and other areas of the globe.

So during those years before I started Climb Co, I was seeing under the United Nations framework opportunities abroad to destroy superbluttons.

And in 2009, when I started Climb Co, it was really to take my lessons learned abroad into North American marketing into, into one of the players that helped create the market in, in the US that that really started with like even on that super pollutant topic, Chris, we had to write, we had to work with the registry, write a protocol.

That protocol had to leverage the pros and cons of what we experience under the UN framework to tighten it up, strengthen it even further, and then bring those protocols into the US market.

So just just to get the first protocol written and get the customers understanding what Climbco's value proposition was, you know, that's two years in the works.

So nothing happened right away.

It was, but it was that focus at, I believe your scale here.

And then also with the realization that if we are, we're able to make these reductions.

When I went into a company, I may go into a company in the middle of the United States and say, you know, you're a, you're a, you're a, you have an asset that you, that you don't even recognize.

Your asset is to nitrous oxide emissions, which are not regulated.

I do the Clean Air Act now.

It is a greenhouse gas and I have the technology to abate it.

I also have the investment to invest around it and to make this successful because the the credits that we're going to generate, we found buyers in the market that are willing to support this project.

So they're going to buy the environmental attributes or the OR the, the intro destruction, which we convert over to carbon credits and then we're selling that attribute into the market.

And we were able to 15 years ago develop relationships that were forward-looking.

So they were forward agreements to deliver these carbon credits from these investments over a period of three to five years, which gave us certainty over price in the future that we could make investments today at that time to invest in the technology.

So is is really as a market maker you know if we weren't able to put a price on that externality of CO2 equivalent, we will been successful.

So at the same time, we're understanding the technology so well, we had to find develop the market and understand what that look like.

So that that was in our early days and some of our clients have been buying off the same project for a decade.

They've supported those projects for that long.

Well, so many thoughts here.

The reason I clarified when you started doing that was that again, tying into, you know, one of the hats as now board member at Terrace that, you know, we started off saying, look, we're just going to move donor capital, mostly family offices to pre purchase C like Cdr carbon dioxide removal.

And over time we thought, well, how else could we use those same dollars in cavity fashion to also help destroy things like you're describing?

So you are were super ahead of the game, I think back then.

I mean, the the carbon removal world is just starting with just whatever the last six months discussing.

Well, hey, this is really a greenhouse gas removal, not a not just a carbon removal.

So good at you guys.

I think the other is just kind of lessons for for those listening, you know, maybe maybe at least one year is this hyper focus, right for a beachhead market.

You got to get boat on the beach before you can do anything else.

And so not trying to be everybody to or, you know, every solution to everyone, yeah, is really is really smart.

But then once you're on that beach, you're doing well.

The, the health, the, the, the land and expand right Strategy, I think appears to be serving you all well over this, over these, you know, 16-17 years, you made customers happy early on.

They're like, Bill, love your solutions out here.

What else can you do for us?

So they, that's, that's a good lesson as well.

And the last one I'll pull on before passing the mic back to you is you went to these folks and said, look, you've got a liability.

I'm going to turn it into an asset.

And I think that's just a such a a powerful business model.

We when I worked in private equity, we that was our model too said, look, you owner of brownfield, right, formerly or formerly industrial site, it's a liability.

Let's buy this from you and turn it into this, you know, whatever master plan community of some sort or industrial to commercial, you know, development get liability to, to asset.

So three really important lessons to go well beyond just the cool work at at Cline Co.

Yeah, I know.

Those are really good points, you know, and you you go back to when I started the company, yeah.

That was really, you know, right when Obama, President Obama was coming in.

So I think there was a lot of hope that there was going to be a federal mandate, a federal cap and trade.

And, you know, there was a clean power plan that ultimately got rescinded afterwards.

But you know, so we were preparing for in lots of ways, legislation that used that was once called Waxman marquee bill and you know, these these legislative pieces and in in thinking that we're going to participate in that.

So when that went away, we, we really had a look at the voluntary markets, you know, people who wanted to make an impact now.

And, and since then, I would say that the we, we still participate in compliance markets, you know, such as California, such as Alberta, Canada, Quebec, also over in Europe.

But the majority of our work is voluntary.

It's companies that are establishing science based targets.

They're looking at ways to decarbonize and they're looking at ways to start to act now, you know, not only investing in removals for the future to hit their sign space targets, you know, but how can they compensate now for their impact?

And, and that's what's really been exciting.

And then you're right about the clients.

I got to tell you, when I go, I have an annual conference that I go to that is kind of geeky.

It's a, it's ammonia nitrate conference and you know, it's really geeky.

But that's our core.

That was our core sector, right?

When I go back there, I still acknowledge the leadership that trusted us 16 years ago.

Like how do you get that first customer to say all you are is a business plan and a couple people and those customers that you know, they're instrumental in our growth.

So I still love acknowledging them as key, as really important parts of the climb coast story.

And, and, but the reason why we, we migrated into consulting into, into other geographical areas around the globe.

It's usually with that customer that says, oh, Bill, by the way, I have a facility in the UK.

Help me out there.

I would say, well, we haven't done business in the UK, but trust us and let's try it.

You know, let's try it.

And I, I think one of the, so being being so transparently honest, you know, one, one of the coolest stories I have with, with the customer is that, you know, we also got involved in, you know, other regional markets, like regional compliance markets around criteria pollutants, not non attainment areas of the United States.

And so like Southern California areas of New York, PA under the national air ambient air quality standards.

And one of our clients doing work with us and they said, hey, Bill, can you help us?

We need to acquire rugs, they called it.

And you're going to say, what's a rug, right, Reactive organic gas.

They needed rug credits in South Coast California and they trusted us.

And they said, Bill, can you help us out acquiring rugs or developing A reduction so we could use them against our future emissions of a facility we're building?

So I did a little bit of research.

I go into the corporate, I met this new individual and he says, so can you help me out with Rogs?

And I said, I got to tell you, Mike, I said, I think I can, but I don't.

I didn't even know what Rog stood for what you called me up.

I had to look it up.

I said, it's a organic gas.

These are the experiences that we've had together.

I think I can relate them over to help you.

I said, but I got to be honest with you.

I, I had, I had to research this.

I didn't know what this market was.

And he say, he laughed, he's laughed.

And he said, Bill, nor did I and I really appreciate your honesty.

Let's do this together.

So I think that's where, you know, just be yourself.

You know what you're good at, know what you're not.

But also, you know, once you have those trusting relationships.

Clients helped us create our story.

I mean where client go as defined today much in part by our clients.

That is a really good story.

It reminds me of as I was finishing the, the, the PhD working in environmental private equity, I felt like I always had to have the answer because in, in the PhD world, you can't say I don't know, right?

But then you'll be taught by a mentor.

Hey, look like don't make shit up, which I wasn't doing, but I certainly felt the pressure.

It's like, if you don't know, the proper response is I don't know, but I'll find the, I'll find you the answer.

But, and by this method, by this time and the person's like, oh, well, well, sweet.

I I can, I can live with that, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good.

Great feats.

I've also got three of the things here on, on the last part of what you said.

So you, you acquired a partner or a vendor, maybe you can say something about for those listeners who are considering being acquired or acquiring for in the latter for for growing the business.

I don't know any any takeaways from what works well in growth or acquisition?

Yeah, Chris.

So we, we've done all really smaller kind of niche acquisitions and I think both of the through three we've done 3 and each one of them was founded on trusting the counterparty and having worked with them before, you know, so it's always like even with the investors in our stack, you know, I've worked with all of them before I let them into our stack, you know.

So I think on the, on the, on the one side, we bought a refrigerant management company in a landfill gas abatement or a Terry digester abatement company back in 2015.

And the founding partner that I that I really enjoyed, I remember a deal that we had where he was going to sell us, this firm was going to sell us credits associated with the destruction of ozone depleting substances or refrigerants.

This is a protocol that's housed in California markets and he.

Because there's some issues that happened regulatory, he wasn't able to deliver the credits.

So we walked away from that contract.

And then like 6 months to a year later, I remember where I was when Derek called me, he's my COO today.

And he said, hey, Bill, I just want to let you know that I can fulfill the agreement now.

We were able to generate the credits.

And I said, oh, that's great, Derek.

Well, what price?

And he says, well, of course, at the price I, I committed to a year ago.

And I said to him, I said, well, I don't think that's fair for you because the markets have really increased in value.

He goes, well, it's the right thing to do.

And, and, and I remember when I called him back and I said, we'd like to take the delivery, but we're going to pay you more per ton.

So what's important there, Derek living up to an obligation that he had us saying that's not fair.

Like, you know, I, I haven't spoken about my activities in the Rotary Club, but one of the core statements is, is it fair to all concerned?

It was, would have made too much money on that.

It wasn't fair to him.

Fast forward, we acquired his company, but foundationally it was because they share our values and they also were creative to our business.

Of course, in the, in the, in the project types that they were developing, you know, in the, in the, you take that same relationship.

I, I want to mention one other thing because this is instrumental to my life.

One of our early partners at Climbco in the early days, they knew that we were struggling.

I was struggling.

I had two partners that I ultimately bought out in 2012.

Great people.

They weren't accretive to our value.

And they saw it and they came to me and they said, hey, Bill, one of your claps, Climbco, why don't you come work for us?

Why don't you work for us?

And it was a big company, more salary than I probably still make today, but it was an eye like wow.

And I remember talking to wife about it and she says, well, how close are you to your dream?

And I said, well, I think we're about 3 months away.

So I was a couple months in no income or a couple years in no income, you know, just a classic entrepreneur.

And she said, let him know.

No, you know, just tell him that you want to fulfill your dream and, and you can't work for the big guy anymore, Bill, like you're an entrepreneur now.

Thank God for my wife that she supported me.

So when I went back to them for breakfast the next day, I said thank you, thank you, but I, I have to say no.

And their first reaction was, well, if we can't have you or you don't want to sell the business, how can we help you be successful?

Well, really, I don't have a bank relationships.

I, I don't have any line of credit.

The banks don't know our business.

It's like deer in the headlights talking to them about partner credits back in those I said So what you can do I'm about ready to sign a project.

It's going to take me two years to harvest the credits with the technology installation.

But if you put a price on that and prepaid me for delivery from 2 years from now right.

So I mean what did pipe dream?

I would have thought they would have said no, I don't trust you, I don't believe in it.

And they said we can do that, love to help you, you know.

So that became the cash that we needed to be successful because they trusted Bill Flutterbach in the brand that we had and we delivered right on time and that relationship went forward.

So that's pass it forward.

So how when I run into companies and I see that they're struggling, but they're really good people, how can I help them be successful?

So you know, that the company that we had bought Greentree on Vancouver, great, great folks.

But it was obvious to me that, you know, even though I went to see whether or not they wanted to sell the company, they would say no.

And I was, you know, they were my consultant, a lot of projects, but I could see that they were struggling.

So I said to them when they decided not to sell, I said, well, how can we help you be successful?

And we created like a prepayment on future contracts because we trusted them essentially that same motto of putting money in their bank account to take this off their day-to-day activities, right?

But pass it forward.

The acquisitions that we've done are small but really important foundationally.

So it wasn't taking a hundred person firm mixing it with 100, you know, so culturally these were easy to integrate, but we already knew that it was a cultural fit before we acquired them.

And then I could Fast forward that to the to the third acquisition as well.

Actually, we've done 4, but each one of them has been, I would say 5 to 10 people small.

I, I think I get, I get a little bit nervous when I think of global expansion and, you know, I, I've looked at firms overseas and, you know, how's it going to affect our culture?

But I haven't, I haven't had to deal with that yet.

I may, but if it's going to break it up, I'm not going to do it.

I think our culture is really wrong.

Yeah.

I did not expect you to respond the way you did when I asked you about M&A, but I'm so glad I did.

What great lessons for kind of, you know, how we exhibit character in business in business, not just character, you know, in in life, you know, some some themes.

I think that I hear what is you know, we we shouldn't seek to win the battle, but the war, if you will, and kind of aggressive terms.

The other more like operating in a in a kind of relational versus transactional space.

We're thinking about whatever a 510 year way of doing business with someone versus let me get all that I can from, you know, from one deal.

Let me go back to you mentioned market maker.

You guys are are market you you have it from the very beginning.

You mentioned two years you're Co writing, you know, guidelines to kind of create the the market pool market demand.

What advice would you give to entrepreneurs today who are faced with the possibility or requirement that they become market makers?

What's is it an example or two that that that comes to mind?

Yeah.

You know, I think as a, you know, to make a market like this, I needed to I actually hired an amazing individual where we were just focused on the technology.

It was almost like build it and it will come.

But pretty that could be disastrous, right?

But we were building it with the belief that there is going to be interest out there and and there there was an individual Danny still with us today.

That came to me early in the climb Co days.

I had to work with him internationally and he said, hey, Bill, I really love what you're doing.

I really think that I can help you build this market and, and drive the credibility of it.

Talk to big emitters and say, why would you want to invest in this now?

And, and bring that in reduction over into your balance sheet, you know, towards your reduction targets.

So I really had to, had to trust Dan as a market maker.

And I remember Dan said, I, I'd love to work with you.

And I mean, this is back in the early days.

I'm like, Dan, I, I'd love to have you with us, but I just don't have the money, the money right now.

And so as a great salesperson, he sold himself on me and created more of an incentive alignment deal, really low draws until we built up the business.

But trusting individuals knowing that I can't do it myself is really important.

But you know, but as a market maker, it's, it's really making sure the quality is there.

So you know, you see a lot of articles over the last five years of Guardian, Guardian articles attacking project types, etcetera.

We've never been attacked because our quality is applicable.

So you quality first.

So in a market that's voluntary, who wants to buy, buy a voluntary product and be subject to, you know, lawsuits or a Bloomberg article that outs them for buying something that's bogus, right.

So we, we've never been in an article like that 'cause we're always doing the next right thing.

But as a, as a also as a market maker, you know, we had spoken about, you know, what is the fair, the fairness meter.

You know, we talk about the fairness meter at Clanco, you know, as, as a making a market, what, what is the fair price?

What is the price to set?

How do you share value with your customers?

And we've always leaned on, you know, don't think about slang this one.

Think about a long term relationship.

Think about giving the the, the appropriate amount of profits to everybody involved.

You know, don't get desperate and say, well, I, I can really make a spread on this, you know, so to be fair to all involved and realize that the value of a company is based on its relationships.

You know, our company is based on the value that we create over developing projects, over consulting around projects.

We have a group of products, team Chris, that like the Climate Pledge program under Amazon, we're one of Amazon's partner that affixes carbon to products that are calculating their life cycle emissions.

So we know we're doing all of this and integrating it across a spectrum of talent.

But it, you know, if I looked at parts of our business that are just trading commodities, you know, that's great, but it doesn't create long term value.

In fact, if I were to sell that business, it would, it would, it would sell at a much lower multiple of EBITDA than our entire business does.

That creates value across the spectrum.

So yeah, a lot to unpack there.

But as a, as a market maker, I, I think trust in the people, surround yourself with the people that can help you.

Because I wasn't good at that, Chris.

I was good at developing the technologies.

So I had to trust a few people in the market to help me.

But I, I think that fairness meter was is really important is, is to make sure that it's fair for all involved.

Yeah, I think the fairness meter is interesting.

I also think the idea that your commodity trading business would trade it would sell at a lower multiple of of EBITDA or profit is also, I think you know, telling as well.

You referenced part of how you, you've grown is through, you know, acquiring some companies, 3 or 4 companies.

But the other is you take it outside capital.

You didn't take it originally.

They've taken on quite a bit of outside capital in the last, you know, four years or so.

Talk to us about either part of that, either kind of when you decided the 40 or 50 million bucks of equity was the right time to take on versus, you know, versus the early days.

I'm not obviously the early days was a Great Recession, a little a little harder for other reasons too.

But what's the capital raising journey for your all's gross?

Deliberate like each one of the M and as and so our first investors is the heritage group and then 4th generation family business headquartered out of Indianapolis.

But global, you know, great people, they they have a diverse portfolio of, of companies.

You know, they were founded on asphalt production, real a lot of innovation around asphalt production, but then they've diversified significantly and heritage environmental.

They recently sold EQT, for instance, so that that included RECRA incinerators has waste landfills crystal clean.

They recently spun that off.

They have a group called Invita that does white glove waste optimization.

So they really have an incredible amount of companies that could really use our services.

So as we got to know them, you know, it was also they wanted to be more of a, a a they wanted to lead in the sustainability space.

So an acquisition or an investment in Clamco open up our resources to their to their companies, you know, that own for so many years.

So, so that was a lot of fun.

So, but, but again, 4th generation family business got to know the current, you know, Fred Fasenfeld, which is just just an amazing man who is, who is the, really the kind, I call him the grand Fuba, but he's the, he's the, the current leader who delegated everything over to Amy, his daughter to be the CEO of the organization.

And, and I got to know them.

I was working for their companies before I let, before I let them in the door to onboard capital.

And it was only a small part because at that point realized that back in 2000, 12, I was 1/3 owner of Heimbill.

So in 2012 I did that.

I did that risk move of buying out 2/3 of, you know, buying my partners.

And that wasn't easy.

That was drain, draining the account, trusting everything.

So I really didn't want to sell a lot of the company quickly.

So I was very deliberate about it.

Heritage was our first investor and then I was also working with this small private equity.

I Joe, 'cause they're fairly large, Warburg Pincus and I think they had 80 billion in their management.

But for years I was working with them.

I was working with them on thought processes around decarbonization.

When they were making investments, you know, I was friends with them.

I would help them look at their investments, not about cash now, but just networking, getting to know them.

And then Fast forward about two years in the into the relationship, right around 2021.

You know, I, I had made the decision that I could make more impact globally if I had additional equity in the stack.

But more than just the equity heritage, I've learned so much from as a family owned business, 4th generation, really incredible.

I've learned so much from them.

Warburg as a group called Value Creation and Value Creations.

So it's imagine 7080 consultants that are leading consultants that work for Warburg Pincus that become advisors to me at no cost.

So if I have a pricing situation, if I want to do microeconomics and look at pricing a product or leadership or, you know, you name it, there is talent there that I can learn from and it makes me a better person and makes Klein Co a stronger company, you know, so, so both of those investors, we can learn from both of those investments we work for with for years before we let them into the stack, you know where we're going because their investment in client go is relatively small versus how they typically invest.

Joking with me that it took me forever to let them into the family, you know.

So in the investment stack, though, I still have the largest share position and I've been able to maintain that.

But Chris, he didn't ask this, but I need to say it is that every employee is an owner of climb through shadow shares or unit appreciation rights UA Rs.

So we manage this.

In fact, ownership works focused on I'mco's story, which part of the KKR group because we I really believe that I wanted everybody to be an owner.

And so these unit rights that we provide, we value the company externally every year.

So the same price that I have as a, as a common shareholder, that's the unit right share price to it, it mirrors it.

So when I, when I give out a unit rights to employees that they're not taxable today because what, what, what they're receiving is they're receiving the, the, a certain amount of rights or certain amount of shares at today's price, but zero value.

It's the incremental gain over the next three years that they that becomes liquid cash for them and they have a three-year term on them.

So there is liquidity.

It doesn't have to be tied to a sale of Climb Co.

So which is why ownership works.

Really wanted to focus on us because I think that's the one difference.

You can have the unit rights tied to a liquidity event and that's a little simpler to run.

But what I like about our program is most people don't sell their shares because they're really alignment, they're really aligned with our future growth.

But with it, when an individual does have a life event and they want to, you know, maybe a family, family need, you know, they want to buy a new car or whatever, you know, once these are liquid, they can cash them out.

And there was a time when we had more value in shares than we had in our very robust 4O1K program.

But but it's that ownership culture that we have.

Like one of our core values is entrepreneurialism.

How do you support entrepreneurialism as a core value if you don't have everybody having a piece of climb go?

But it doesn't dilute the cap table.

In fact, it, it's, if you look at it that way, it's a liability for us because at a, at an event, you know, they're the first to be paid.

But from a I, I've worked with companies that have a very convoluted cap table.

Ours is real simple, essentially 3 owners sounds like what cap table.

So that's keep it simple.

And did you say that Ownership Works was the group that helped you all structure this?

Ownership Works of Warburg Pegas is a member of Ownership Works Ownership Works featured us in New York as a panelist that in to discuss our program because the I've learned a lot from other ownership work companies.

How I think what's novel about ours is the liquidity aspect of it and that comes with pains.

You got to, you always set money aside with the realization that UA Rs may be cashed out, but but being fiscally responsible to manage that program.

I would say he's a real differentiator for us because not only do we have great incentives that are aligned to individual efforts, but having the the share price, you know, says that Chris, you may be working at Climbco and all of a sudden the other part of Climbco really does well and you can support them and it doesn't mean much for your P&L today, but it means everything for your share price.

That share price is that common?

That's a commonality that we needed in the incentive.

Package.

Yeah, super interesting.

I don't think I've heard of an, of an example too often where every three years there is liquidity to be provided.

I think so often in, in, you know, working with less the CE OS I work with and more with, you know, kind of career transition folks.

And I say, well, you know, I could, I could sell to or I could join this kind of company, I'm going to get some equity and so forth.

The question is, well, you know, what does the liquidity look like, right?

Is this, are there investors who have to have a sell to get liquidity for their investors?

If not, what, what's what's going to force that with maybe you're you're locked up for a long time.

I would also highlight one more thing and then we're going to switch to the person part of the podcast in both the Heritage group and also with with Warburg Pincus, their value creations team.

Both of those of those examples show that cash to grow from investors is super important, but the support beyond the cash, maybe not equally, but but pretty darn important as well.

I think, you know, I, I know from all the CEOs I work with and certainly just been kind of in the space, lots of investors say they add value beyond the cash.

I think from a a founder's perspective, sometimes that's true, sometimes that's not true.

But this is the this is where the two way interview, you know, makes a lot of sense to make sure there is there are examples, clear examples of the value beyond just the cash.

So anyway, good on you to make sure you get both with your your two big investors.

Yeah.

You know, I think for me it was interesting to do with with Heritage as my I was our first investor I would say initially and they would certainly appreciate me being honest about this.

They were hesitant about me bringing in another investor into the stack.

They wanted to be, they wanted to re up and provide more capital.

What I really needed Chris at the board levels.

I, I, I wanted to learn something more like Harriet, amazing partner.

We do amazing work for their companies.

But I wanted, you know, I didn't have a fourth generation focus of the firm like, you know, I, I'm in, I'm in this generation and I want to learn as much as I can from really bright people with a different point of view.

So I think with with heritage, it's one point of view, It's one area of expertise.

It's one network that they're offering.

And then with Warburg, it was another.

And I would say that the most difficult conversation I had was with my board member when he was, I remember the weekend, he was like, come to a decision, Bill, are you going to onboard Warburg or are you going to take more of our money?

And I said to him on Monday, and it felt like I was almost breaking up with my wife after, you know, a long, I've been married for 30 some years.

When I said to Chad, I said Chad, I said I got to tell you, I made a decision to take on Warburg capital and I hope that you hit the preemptive clause and re up with us.

But here's why.

And Fast forward 2-3 years, I would say that the chemistry have at the board, Warburg has done things with heritage outside of Climbco.

Just the relationship has been so strong that I, I, I would say that my board member who I felt like I was breaking up with at the time, would realize that all I did was really strengthen the board by having a, a different capital in the stack.

But I would say equally as important is the learning.

Equally as important.

I could have got money elsewhere that I, that I turned down.

It wasn't about the money as much as, or as to the learning, I believe, and, and that extra talent that could help us grow and, and make me think differently.

You know, we, we talk a lot about points of view at Climbco and we're ready to share them.

You know what, learn from every.

So that's I'm glad you brought that up.

The chemistry of the board is really important and the decision to bring on capital is really important.

Yeah.

I mean, usually it's a good thing to diversify, you know, our investor bases, Yeah, for future funding for different networks and so forth.

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All right, back to the show Bill.

We can talk all day long about about climb Co in your 16 year journey.

Many more to come, but let's switch to the person part of the podcast.

So #1 give us some advice you might pass along to your younger self to build a career of impact.

You know what one of the advice is that I would give, and my wife had given it to me a long time ago, is other than life and death circumstances, nothing is life or death, you know, So don't get too stressed out.

You know, I, I think if I had one struggle in life, it would.

But it's also a positive for me.

It's a little bit of an obsessive compulsive speaking.

So I use that.

I turn that around as a positive in life, though, Chris, is that I revolve around something several times.

I don't just let it go.

I think of a better solution.

But I also realized that, you know, I can't control everything and unless it's life or death, and I do jump out of planes occasionally as a skydiver, you know, there are life and death situations, but business is not one of them.

I would say another really important one is don't let the fear of success or don't let success create a fear that you can't recreate yourself.

This is probably one of the most important lessons that I've, that I've had is that, you know, earlier in my career, my mentors would say this is even before I started Climbco, you know, have some diversity, you know, so you're not crippled by your success.

You know, I'm not crippled by my success at Climbgo because honestly and, and certainly this won't happen if Climbco went to a 0 value.

I still am going to be fine.

You know, I've got enough other other investments that I've made over time to diversify, whether or not it's commercial property, the love for commercial properties and having a, a non correlated assets to the market, you know, things like that.

But it's always to run your business in a way that if you failed, you'd still be OK or you have something else you can do.

So I think in that, that that's the freedom, Chris, that I will generate.

So that was really important.

That was probably a life lesson for my father and the other one that my father gave me and I talk a lot about it at the client at client Co is act your life dated as if you're being a film for 60 minutes, which means he used to tell me because we used to watch 60 minutes.

He said, Bill, imagine you know, everyday cameras in your office, cameras following you around filming you for 60 minutes.

If you're doing something that you'd be uncomfortable airing on 60 minutes, don't do it.

So we call it the 60 minute test that Klein Coker and it's just kind of a calibration tool that my father would would, would tell me when I was a younger man.

So those are some some things I think about.

I think also have fun.

I do a lot of things that I that I decouple from work.

Like I if I told you I was, I had some OCD, which is a positive thing for me.

The way I, I get out of that is I, I hike in mountains, That's my serenity.

I enter a mountain and I don't think about anything except for the mountain.

It's, it's almost spiritual for me.

I fly planes.

So as a private pilot, I like the checklist.

I like being up in the in the air.

I'm not thinking about my troubles.

I'm not taking cell phone calls.

I'm not, I'm not on social media in the airplane pilot.

So I think finding areas or outlets where you can totally escape and have serenity.

It's really yeah, love all those how to pass along the the 60 minute test our three kids as well.

How about how about the second one, Bill?

Talk to us about habits or routines that keep you healthy, staying and focused like climb crew.

Yeah, running.

I, I, I do it, I joke so I can eat more ice cream.

So I love ice cream, but I actually feel like just the balance of eating well, if I'm eating poorly and having too much coffee and too much sugar, it's like a, it's like a roller coaster even emotionally, you know how I'm feeling about myself.

So I think foundationally it's eating about balance.

I, I, I talk about harmony.

I'm not a pescetarian.

I vegetarian.

I'm, I just eat everything in balance and, and nothing to excess.

And I like a dessert, but I don't like 2 of them, you know, So I think it's just finding the right balance nutritionally is really important for me.

You know, going to the gym three days a week.

I'm not not excessive.

I don't need to be there 7, but be, but being there three and getting a run in, getting some getting some physical activity is really important.

That helps me feel good about myself and it helps me disconnect and I think a lot.

And then again, I think it's the, my routine of hiking.

So I do live up in Lake Placid, NY, up in the high peaks of the Adirondacks.

And my wife and I climbed all 46 peaks and, you know, we were very active.

But that's my, that's my freedom a little bit outside of work and it'll, but it also gives me time to like when I'm at the gym, I, I do listen to podcasts if I'm on that treadmill or running outside, usually I listen to half the run in the podcast and then I meet good old rock'n'roll to finish the run.

But I do love podcasting quite a bit.

And and then that helps me learn and give back to my body at the same time.

All right, two very important follow-ups.

What kind of rock'n'roll and what?

Kind of ice cream, Death by chocolate.

I'm a chocolate fan.

So I, I really like, there's actually a Penn State Creamery.

I'm a Penn Stater and so they're really known for known for food science and the Creamery is amazing.

So when I take folks to Penn State, when I go back, I always make sure I go to the Creamery.

But the Death by Chocolate is loaded and that and that's really good.

Chocolate chip cookie dough is pretty good too, along next to Death by Chocolate.

I like a wide variety of music.

I am actually, if you saw my LP collection, 'cause I have a record player that's tied into my Sonos system, you'll see a lot of vintage Pink Floyd.

So I've, I've always liked that.

That's my cornerstone band.

I like a lot of jam bands.

I'm going to see Goose at the Man in Philadelphia coming up.

So I like that.

The whole Den company scene too.

But I, I like all the new music too.

I, I like to go to the Houston Symphony when they have like Led Zeppelin night and Pink Floyd night.

Houston Symphony is amazing.

So they, they bring it back into, into the common person.

Like you don't need to know Bach to enjoy the Symphony.

But my wife and I go to a lot of concerts and we're going to go to in, I'm an 80s guy too.

So I mean some crazy 80s bands.

I think B50, twos and Devo are going to be in Houston in a couple weeks.

I mean so.

We're going to go.

It'll be like a dance night.

Yeah, very cool.

Wide variety of live music though.

Live music in in music festivals.

Love festivals.

Yeah, when you, when you sit Death by Chocolate.

I was like, you know, I've never heard that band before, but oh, that's ice cream.

Well, that's the ice cream.

See, I started with ice cream, Chris.

That might, yeah.

Let's let's let's go to the last one.

Given that we're we're a little over overtime, thankfully overtime give us give us a couple of book recommendations and they can they can be outside of business that's maybe maybe better, but either one.

Works, I think one that I referenced a lot, Chris, my chairman had recommended it's some of his folks and I and I had read it is, is David Rock quiet leadership.

Not, not one that a lot of people have read, but I what I liked about quiet leadership, if there's one thing that's really important, there is when if I go to my chairman, who is a quiet leader and I asked him what he would do, you'll he'll never answer.

You won't tell what he'll do.

What he'll do is he'll ask me questions.

So I'll do a 360 in my mind and I'll, I'll end up owning it.

Like when I asked him, would you bring on Warburg Pincus?

Never did he tell me what he would do.

He asked me to think about different things.

And I think, and there's a lot of science that goes into that, like if you map it, you'll own it.

If I tell you what to do or what I would do and you just listen to what I do, you're not going to own it the same way.

So I think Dave, David Rock is an interesting one.

There's some cornerstone ones that I'm sure every Business School likes to promote, which is like Jim Collins, good to grade.

I would say that good to grade is one that I've read many times in my career.

I've I've when I have a new, when I really rebuilt my leadership team, we all read Good to grade and we had, you know, meetings around good to grade what it meant for us.

I like the yeah, I live in Texas now.

So Matthew Mcconaughey's green lights in in a weird way, I listen to him on audio books and he was a really cool a cool narrator.

But I feel I think about that in life, like if you just just give it time, like it seems like it's a wreck now or it's red or maybe it's yellow, but you know, just that simple concept like it will turn green.

I mean, I think I've had the red light moments at climb go.

So I I like as a newer 1 Matthew McConaughey.

I think one last one I'll tell you about is, is start with Y, you know, is that is, is not, not what you do.

And we talk a lot about that at Kleinco, why we do things.

But yeah, I, I do a lot of audio books.

So yeah, those are some of the ones that are near and dear to my heart podcast.

Too, Those are good ones on the quiet leadership.

It sounds familiar.

I think in my one-on-one work with, with our CE OS in the peer group, yeah, it's, it's frequently asking questions versus saying here's the answer, partly because I, I don't have the answer sometimes.

But most the, the folks, they know the answer somewhere, but they just, they can't talk it, talk it through.

I'll say the last thing, maybe start with why it's, you know, Simon Sinek, I heard him recently on a, on a show talking about this, this slingshot, slingshot concept where sometimes we need to go backwards in order to go forwards much faster.

And that what a freeing concept.

That's when we're kind of going back to school, rebranding, repositioning, re whatever it can.

It doesn't even just pure back, pure friction, pure delay, which is refreshing.

Yeah, I like that.

I'll have to look at I, I'm not.

I'll have to look into that.

That was that he was speaking when you heard that?

Or was that in the podcast?

So YouTube Chatty had with Arthur Brooks, which is also just a great a great listen at all times.

Hey, Bill, great to talk to you.

I had I had no idea about kind of the origin story there.

So much great advice on leadership and in business and beyond.

Rooting for real success at Climbco.

Thanks, Chris.

Thank you so much.

I really enjoyed the time.

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