[UNKNOWN]: You [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Hollis Guide Podcast.

[SPEAKER_00]: We are your host, I'm Stephen.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Kyle.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's Monday, holocult, you know what that means.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you've chosen us, staying out with you, and kickstart your work week.

[SPEAKER_00]: Kyle's bringing us something today.

[SPEAKER_00]: I am.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's a little bit different.

[SPEAKER_00]: Which you got for us, Kyle.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll give him a little sneak peek.

[SPEAKER_01]: Mr.

Manson and the CIA.

[SPEAKER_00]: Two people that I don't like.

[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, heard that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Charles Manson and the CIA.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So stick around for that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You're not into that fast forward about the six-minute mark, and you'll find the crux of the show.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, if you'd like to do where am I at and there here I am, if you have a paranormal experience that you'd like to share and be featured on a future episode of either this show or our paranormal experience show, Kyle's got some deeds for you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It is That easy.

[SPEAKER_00]: It really fucking is it may take me five years to get to it, but [SPEAKER_00]: time doesn't exist, that comes a deep man.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and time is a human construct.

[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's science, really.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I asked Neil to grant Tyson.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he'll tell you about time.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll honestly, the best parapod cast I've ever listened to.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: We have been friends for years.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's a good observation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: True.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And just like that, we are back.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Kyle's gonna throw us into the magical world of Charles Manson and the CIA.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just off the title alone, I'm not particularly certain who's worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good statement, slash observation.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good one.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think either one of them are very nowhere the nerds.

[SPEAKER_01]: They are nerds in the bad way.

[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, not cool nerds.

[SPEAKER_00]: Dorks, if you will.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, so everyone is at least vaguely familiar with the Manson family.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not Marilyn Manson, but Charles Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Today, we are going to be diving in a little deeper into the Manson family and the CIA connections.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually watching a TV series called Wayward on Netflix, pretty good show and kind of prompted me to look into this case.

[SPEAKER_01]: So here we are.

[SPEAKER_01]: November 12th, 1934, Manson was born to a 16 year old named Ada Kathleen Maddox.

[SPEAKER_01]: is birth certificate, actually only lists his name as Manson.

[SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So he started off as a persona.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, pretty much.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird, that was weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: And a little bit before his birth, his mother actually married a man named William Eugene Manchin, so essentially with where the manchin comes from.

[SPEAKER_01]: It seems that his parents would go on vendors quite often, and occasionally they would actually, or on one occasion, they actually ended up robbing in assaulting a man, which caught them five to ten years of imprisonment, or five and ten years.

[SPEAKER_00]: generational scumbagness.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm that's what I'm trying to do here.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of paint his picture before all of the crimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it actually just keeps gulping down hill from here.

[SPEAKER_01]: His mother was a fucking train wreck after she gets out.

[SPEAKER_01]: She meets back up with Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: He said it was one of the [SPEAKER_01]: However, she would keep drinking and get arrested for things like Grandlarsony.

[SPEAKER_01]: In an interview with Diane Sawyer, Manson states that when he was nine years old, he actually caught his school on fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: What a fire.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was also in trouble for truncy and petty theft quite often.

[SPEAKER_01]: uh...

in nineteen forty seven at the age of thirteen he was actually placed in the uh...

guy bill school for boys and tear-out in the end [SPEAKER_01]: this was a school for male delinquents that were that was actually ran by Catholic priests who apparently would beat the shit out of you for any type of infraction often using wooden paddles or the leather straps.

[SPEAKER_00]: He did not have a good start.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh no.

[SPEAKER_00]: He is really the like poster boy for the nature versus nurture what what creates a villain.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: If he had a better home life [SPEAKER_00]: would he have turned out as bad?

[SPEAKER_00]: Because it really like humanizes him, him saying that one of the happiest moments of his life was getting to see his mom again.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then she was just a shit back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think I think it's a solid point that if his home life would have been better, he probably wouldn't have been this.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is it with him back then?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It does say like just hearing that like I know he had some people do some shady things Yeah, really shady things, but here in M.B.

[SPEAKER_00]: and like it was a happy moment on my life to see my mom again It's like really like a like a really personalizes in my guess.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah Mance and actually ends up escaping that place the boys home He ends up sleeping in the woods under bridges anywhere else he could essentially find shelter until he makes his way back home [SPEAKER_01]: to have his mother take him right back to that place.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: So no, it's like zero flux from his mom, which sucks.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ten months later, he escapes again, heads into anyapolis where he commits his first documented crime, which was Robby and grocery store.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was actually doing this to find something to eat, however, he ends up finding a cigar box with some money in it, which he uses it to rent a room and get some food.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson tries to go straight, he gets a job, he begins delivering messages for Western Union.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that wasn't exactly cutting it, so he began to supplement his wages through stealing.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was caught and a judge sent him to a boy's town, which was a juvenile facility in Omaha, Nebraska, within four days of being in this place, Manson and his new buddy, Blackie Nielsen were able to get a gun and steal a car.

[SPEAKER_01]: committing two armed robberies on their way to Nielsen's uncle's house, which was in Peoria, Illinois.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that's pretty fucking close to here.

[SPEAKER_00]: What yeah, how old was he at the time?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not exactly sure, but he was still in a boy's home So he had a bit of a team Yeah, within four days got a gun steal a car committed two armed robberies.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yep Working his way back east.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep, and then Technically that would be a federal crime because he crossed state lines as well in a stolen vehicle.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, we're about it So [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nielsen's uncle was a professional thief to which he made the boys, his apprentices when they finally got there.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is just one shit bomb after another after another.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, after another.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hell, like he Nielsen didn't stand a chance because everybody in his life was a piece of trash.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: Pieces of trash seem to magnate toward each other and there you go.

[SPEAKER_00]: Trash of the feather flocks together.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[SPEAKER_01]: Trash of a feather burned together.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, his uncle must not have been a very good teacher because within two weeks Manson was arrested to which he was then sent to a very strict reform school in Plainfield, Indiana.

[SPEAKER_01]: This was a rough patch for Manson because apparently, under encouragement from a staff member, some of the boys at this home would essay, Manson repeatedly and give him beatings.

[SPEAKER_01]: He ends up running away from the school at least 18 times.

[SPEAKER_00]: Then they keep taking him back.

[SPEAKER_00]: My question was, before things got really dark there, is how is he simultaneously the best criminal and the worst criminal at the same time?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a good question, because he's very good at escaping things.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he got a gun and stole a car to get away from the boys' town.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then he was arrested within two weeks of doing petty robberies.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting dynamic.

[SPEAKER_00]: 18 times.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why like at that point I don't even know at that point like what do they even do it?

[SPEAKER_00]: What are they even doing?

[SPEAKER_00]: Just not locking the doors I don't know just let them do whatever does that count as a scape if we just walks out Yeah, I don't know [SPEAKER_01]: So from there, man, to the two other boys actually ended up escaping and robbing gas stations and an attempt to drive to California and stolen cars.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were then arrested in Utah, which lands him federal charges because, like I said, he was driving stolen cars across state lines.

[SPEAKER_01]: He ends up in Washington, D.T., D.C., national training for schoolboys.

[SPEAKER_01]: From there, he was given an aptitude test, which deemed him [SPEAKER_01]: Even though his above average IQ of 109, his caseworker also said he was aggressively anti-social, which I mean, kind of relatable at times.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, kind of tracks.

[SPEAKER_01]: The spiral from there continues [SPEAKER_01]: because in October 1951, I psychiatrist recommends he be transferred to natural bridge on her camp, which is a minimum security prison in Virginia.

[SPEAKER_01]: His aunt shows up and she's like, listen.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll take him in, you know, I'll take care of him and he ends up having a parole hearing in February.

[SPEAKER_01]: So she shows up, I think two months before his parole hearing saying, hey, when he gets out, I'll take him in, I'll take care of him, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: which would essentially kind of help him during his parole, however, in February of 1952, he's caught essaying a boy at knife point, which leads him to be transferred to a federal reformatory in Pittsburgh, Virginia, where he commits eight serious offenses, three of them involved essay.

[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he just completely flip script here and goes on straight rampage mode.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because I was thinking to myself, you know.

[SPEAKER_00]: There is no hero in this story to save him when he was younger.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking every turn, every position that this kid has thrown into is more terrible than the next.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's got to be somebody, somebody on the planet that's like, maybe I can help him, which then you start talking about his aunt and I'm like, okay, maybe this is it.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, he just, he is gone off the rails.

[SPEAKER_00]: which I mean he's he's been in a cycle of degradation and abuse his entire life.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: At some point you're bound to just I know it's not an excuse.

[SPEAKER_00]: being abused doesn't give you an excuse to be an abuser, but at some point you're just gonna fly off the rails in the past, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[SPEAKER_01]: And because of all these crimes that he was committing there, you know, all the eight serious crimes, this now gets him moved to the maximum security prison in Ohio, which he was expected to serve his time until he was 21.

[SPEAKER_00]: I can't, yeah, that's crazy to this all happened before he was 21.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, however, he did get out a little early due to good behavior, which is essentially batshit crazy to me in 1955, he married Rosalie Jean Willis, Willis.

[SPEAKER_01]: Willis, he knocks her up and decides to steal a car in Ohio and drive to Los Angeles, which he gets picked up for, so once again, he gets bagged with federal crimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: is given five years probation.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, a fail to appear in Florida for the same fucking charge, driving across state lines of stone vehicles, lands him three years in the pin, all because he didn't appear.

[SPEAKER_01]: While in prison, his wife gives birth to Charles Manson Jr.

[SPEAKER_01]: his wife visits for a while until she finally moves on and ends up leaving for another man or leaving with another man.

[SPEAKER_01]: Two weeks before his parole hearing, Manson tries to escape by stealing a car, which goes wrong and he catches five years probation and his parole is denied.

[SPEAKER_01]: September 1958 rolls around and Manson has five years parole.

[SPEAKER_01]: By November, this dude is pimping a 16-year-old girl and getting support from another girl with wealthy parents.

[SPEAKER_01]: In 1959, he pleads guilty to trying to cash a forged U.S.

Treasury check which he stole from a mailbox.

[SPEAKER_01]: This all gets him 10 years suspended sentence and probation.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, [SPEAKER_01]: he decided to go to New Mexico with two women and try to pimped them out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which he gets questioned for violating the manact.

[SPEAKER_01]: This gets dropped and disappears and violates his probation.

[SPEAKER_01]: 1960.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he gets in an indictment for violating the Man Act.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson gets picked up in the Loretta, Texas.

[SPEAKER_01]: Return to Los Angeles where his violation for the check gets him his 10-year sentence.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in July of 1961, he gets transferred from McNeil, island in Washington where he ends up taking guitar lessons or he gets transferred to McNeil, island in Washington.

[SPEAKER_01]: In here, he ends up taking guitar lessons from Barker, Carpice, gang leader, Calvin, Creepy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I guess it'd be Capri, Carpice, Capri, what I would want to say that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Another inmate gives him contact information for Paul Kaufman, who is a producer at Universal Studios in Hollywood.

[SPEAKER_01]: He also hung out in prison, which this is fucking crazy to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson actually hung out with Danny Trejo in prison, and they took hypnosis sessions to get there.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_01]: Wrap your brain around that one.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: So at this point, you can clearly tell Manson has screws loose.

[SPEAKER_01]: but he hasn't gone like full crazy deep in yet.

[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's there, but we know he goes farther.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's on the dive and board of the deep in.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So after his parole in 1967, he moves to Berkeley from Los Angeles.

[SPEAKER_01]: which could have been a probation violation.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, he makes a few phone calls and gets it all figured out.

[SPEAKER_01]: His supervision gets turned to a man named Roger Smith.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was working with the height Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, where the man's and family end up frequenting pretty often.

[SPEAKER_01]: Roger Smith and the clinics founder, David Smith, received funding from the National Institutes of Health, also reportedly the CIA to do things like study LSD, study meth and fedamine.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they were doing this specifically on the counterculture movement.

[SPEAKER_01]: The patients at the high-asperic clinic became subjects of their research.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is where Manson gets an introduced to LSD and begins to use it frequently during his time there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Roger, Roger, Roger actually wrote that Manson's personality changed, or changed was the most abrupt he had seen as an entire career.

[SPEAKER_00]: change for the better?

[SPEAKER_01]: No, probably the worst.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, how could he get any worse than his personality?

[SPEAKER_01]: Oddly enough, Lewis, Jalen West, aka Jolly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, Jolly West, he is a big name in the MK Ultra Documents.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was an LSD researcher.

[SPEAKER_01]: He supposedly just happened to live right down the road.

[SPEAKER_01]: Weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: From the clinic.

[UNKNOWN]: Weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: Smith also allowed West to recruit clients for his experiments.

[SPEAKER_01]: West also was the only scientist in the world to predict he was in rapid brain around this.

[SPEAKER_01]: West was the only scientist in the world to predict the emergence of LSD cults.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what that sink in.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a LSD scientist for him.

[SPEAKER_01]: Kulture and he just so happened to predict the emergence of LSD cults.

[SPEAKER_00]: So know exactly what would happen when he put the LSD into the count.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are they call it counter culture?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the hippies.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if you remember, the hippies were all about love and peace.

[SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason, the government and everybody really wanted to take it to them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so he's like, I know all this stuff about LSD.

[SPEAKER_00]: I predict that if I release this drug into the population, there's going to be cults.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's weird, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: So let's release this drug into the population and now they're cults.

[SPEAKER_00]: For the record, you don't have to do LSD to join the Holocaust.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, [SPEAKER_01]: During his time here, Manson ends up reading a book called Stranger in a Strange Land.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, a brief synapses of this is it's kind of about a Martian that gets brought to Earth from Mars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Not so much an alien alien to my understanding, but it's like at one point humanity, [SPEAKER_01]: flies a ship to come on ice Mars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Everything kind of goes wrong.

[SPEAKER_01]: They end up becoming contacted with this guy from Mars, picks him back up, brings him back home.

[SPEAKER_01]: They bring this person back.

[SPEAKER_01]: And he's figuring out life on Earth again, and he goes through many religions learning, and then essentially creates his own almost creative cult.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see what this goes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which may have helped Manson in his belief system because it does parallel some of his ideas and actions.

[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Manson also began to preach from things like Scientology, which he studied while incarcerated.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even when he got out, he met with Scientologists and attended several parties for movie stars.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson also took influence from the Bible, Dale Carnegie, and the Beatles.

[SPEAKER_01]: All of this combined allowed him to build supposedly build a following rather quickly, some even suggest that he took some philosophy from the process church of the final judgment, which believed that Satan and Jesus would reconcile, they would come together at the end of the world to judge humanity.

[SPEAKER_01]: While building his cult, he chose mostly broken women.

[SPEAKER_01]: He also used LSD and unconventional sexual practices, which we know this is linked to forms of magic and forms of creating and shattering the personality to help create altars.

[SPEAKER_00]: Motion of manipulation.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's like logical manipulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was trying to turn his followers into empty vessels that would accept anything and everything that he said.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson would encourage group LSD trips while, and it was reported by some of the people attending that Manson would actually, when they were taking these trips together, he would actually give himself much lower doses so he could further manipulate the crowd.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson even hung out with Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys, where he actually helped Manson create music, and that music apparently was done solely for Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher.

[SPEAKER_01]: Wilson actually ended up recording a Manson song called Seast to Exist and reworked the name to never learn not to love.

[SPEAKER_01]: They asked Wilson why Manson wasn't credited for writing the song and he said that Manson actually gave up all publishing rights for about $100,000 worth of stuff, quote unquote stuff, LSD, probably LSD.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy to me how many, I guess maybe not popular at the time, but also popular at the [SPEAKER_00]: Famous figures cross paths with Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Weird, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that I would have thought.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: No.

[SPEAKER_00]: I knew about the Beach Boys thing, but I didn't know about the Danny Treho thing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Me either.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's strange.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's really weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know about the Beach Boy thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's just fucking bizarre.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ten years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And at a certain point, Manson and his family evolved into this, this doomsday called Manson became fixated on an imminent apocalyptic race war in late 1968 Manson adopted the term health or shelter, which is taken from a song on the Beatles, White Album, and Manson [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you do a little bit of circling back, namely to the point in the Manson's life where he came into contact with the height-asheric clinic.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is kind of where the obviously the CIA gets for introduced.

[SPEAKER_01]: And there was a man named Tom O'Neill who wrote a book called Chaos, the Manson murders.

[SPEAKER_01]: He found out that Manson would frequent the clinic with his quote unquote family of Neill also discovered that scientists were working secretly for the government that we're trying to do exactly what Manson had done to the women who were following him, creating people that would kill without any regret or remorse they would do it on command, and in some cases not even recalling how or why they did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Some of these scientists came into contact with Manson during this time, like I said, jolly West.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's also weird how it lined up so well because apparently Manson and the family showed up to treat their essentially promiscuous lifestyles, trying to take care of a narrow diseases, pregnant season stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's why they went to this clinic.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, oddly enough, Roger Smith, who was his pro officer, had just happened to have an office at the clinic, too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now you insert as we mentioned, Jolly West, his name, like I said, has been brought up through countless times in connection with MK Ultra, West called the clinic a laboratory disguise as a hippie crash pad.

[SPEAKER_01]: This lab was known by West where he was able to recruit subjects for the study of LSD.

[SPEAKER_01]: LSD, for those who don't know, was an extreme key part in the MK Ultra experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: O'Neill has several documents that would come to prove that West was financed by the CIA to work for MK Ultra, namely in experiments with mind control.

[SPEAKER_01]: In these documents, West discussed not only how to conduct experiments to implant false memories and still specific mental disorders and induced trans states on top of all of that, he was able to hide them as well.

[SPEAKER_01]: So could this explain how Manson became a essential philosopher overnight?

[SPEAKER_01]: West wasn't a fringe figure.

[SPEAKER_01]: He evaluated Jack Ruby after Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

[SPEAKER_01]: He proposed using hypnosis to erase memories.

[SPEAKER_01]: He openly discussed the ability to induce psychosis temporarily or permanently using chemical and psychological stressors.

[SPEAKER_01]: When West referred to the high-asperic free clinic as a laboratory disguises a hippie crash pad, [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't speaking metaphorically.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was describing a real world, uncontrolled environment, where drugs, trauma, and sexual activity, and authority figures intersected.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly the conditions MK Ultra researchers believed produced the most malleable minds.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you remember, it's been talked about countless times.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know Steve and I have talked about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: You remember the MK Ultra experiment where they dealt with prostitutes and Johns, and they would dose the Johns when they came in so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_00]: What is that project?

[SPEAKER_01]: It was like midnight or something like that, but that was, you know, that was another experiment that was taking place.

[SPEAKER_01]: He began to wonder if Manson really did become a success story for the CIA, essentially a program to session on top of being able to create other mindless assassins.

[SPEAKER_01]: During all of this, Manson was able to get his followers to completely abandon their sense of morality.

[SPEAKER_01]: and their code of ethics.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was able to convince them that there was no such thing as evil.

[SPEAKER_01]: LSD would help Manson and this quest because he was able to use it to create personality changes and fix it to make it last after the LSD trips ended.

[SPEAKER_00]: project or operation midnight climax.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was at midnight climax.

[SPEAKER_00]: I was looking for that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Why we're going on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Um, one of the major questions that starts to surface and get asked is how did Manson and under a year become so efficient and doing all of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a con artist, but everybody who knew Manson and prison prior to becoming Charlie Manson, all of them took him as a joke.

[SPEAKER_01]: When they were questioned, they took him as a joke.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a nobody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody fucking took this guy serious at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then you also have the oddity that seems to pop up the health or scalter narrative.

[SPEAKER_01]: Boo Glossy, I'll just say Vincent B.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's got a weird ass fucking last name.

[SPEAKER_01]: As I stated, but again for clarification, Manson apparently wanted to start a race war.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, he apparently preached how a race war would go underway only leaving the Manson family alive.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Manson would be the chosen one to lead everyone because the winners of this race war weren't smart enough to lead themselves.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting, like you say, how nobody painting your attention to him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because like I'm big into true crime.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Manson was never really one that like stood out to me because people would talk about like how charismatic he was to his followers and stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: But then you like watch his interviews.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he's just a crazy asshole.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's what he looked like to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was just a crazy fuck.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then I forget like it for some reason [SPEAKER_00]: passes my brain that he was so into LSD, which if you got a bunch of whacked out people on LSD, you tell them whatever the fuck you want to try.

[SPEAKER_00]: Especially if you're not whacked out on LSD.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: So here in that kind of brings things into perspective for me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is also something I didn't know because I've always heard the health or scalter in conjunction with Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know [SPEAKER_01]: that a lot of people are out of the impression that the prosecutor Vincent B.

[SPEAKER_01]: One and two sensationalized this case in order to push a larger book sale.

[SPEAKER_01]: That way, he could make a ton of money and live off that for the rest of his life, which apparently it's what ends up happening for the more on this point.

[SPEAKER_01]: His co-writer was actually sitting in the courtroom collecting notes for this future book.

[SPEAKER_01]: O'Neill thinks that the reason why this halter-scalter narrative was being pushed because Manson actually feared retaliation from the Black Panthers at the time, because he had shot a man named Bernard Crowe, and that happened during a drug deal with that had gone bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson actually assumed Bernard was a part of the Black Panthers, [SPEAKER_01]: Neither of those statements were actually true.

[SPEAKER_01]: Bernard was not a part of the Black Panthers, and he did not die.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but it would make sense if Manson was fearful enough.

[SPEAKER_01]: Especially since the Black Panthers held a reputation in the time, that Manson would actually fear retaliation from the Panthers.

[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of making them have his back to protect him.

[SPEAKER_01]: So to speak, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because he's afraid of this big retaliation.

[SPEAKER_01]: He obviously needs people to help him.

[SPEAKER_01]: He can't do it on his own.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he spends a narrative for his followers.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's another reason why you had a paw print and a political piggy written on the walls in order to implicate the black Panthers of this crime.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, another suggestion is that a motive behind these murders was that Charlie, our Charles was worried someone in his camp was a snitch, so he wanted to commit crimes with them to implicate them if anything, ended up going sideways.

[SPEAKER_01]: That way, both of them, the snitch and him have something to hold over each other, so to speak.

[SPEAKER_00]: Mutually, a shared destruction.

[SPEAKER_01]: So that makes sense, you know, it all sounds, you know, it all, it's kind of mundane and rational, but a larger piece to this puzzle is a simple fact that during 1967 and 1968, while on parole, Manson gets picked up half a dozen times, none of which ends up violating his parole somehow and he gets sent back.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or he just gets let go.

[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, Roger Smith has parole officer who has an office at the clinic, which is so crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: This motherfucker and not to mention Roger Smith sounds like an agency name, showing that out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: But this guy would actually write letters to whoever I guess the parole boarder, whoever telling them how man's it was doing great.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's doing awesome.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's changed, man, all the while he's being picked up handfuls of times for bullshit.

[SPEAKER_01]: That should have landed his parole and got him sent back to prison.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's an odd piece of that puzzle.

[SPEAKER_00]: During what you're experimenting out there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: During the Tate LeBonka murders, it took the LAPD months to pin the family for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Evidence actually shows that law enforcement actually said the crimes were not commit or I think they're saying that the crimes were not connected at all.

[SPEAKER_01]: which had some of the same details that these other murders did.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the detectives said they were looking into narcotics traffickers for that, for the case there.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even weirder is that a raid was actually conducted on the span ranch where the family was staying, they find stolen guns, stolen vehicles, stolen credit cards, and underage runaways.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, only everyone who was arrested in that raid was released three days later.

[SPEAKER_01]: What?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I would assume that all of this combined would be more than enough to put somebody in jail for a little while.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's a lot of a lot of things.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lot of felonies.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Right there.

[SPEAKER_00]: yeah stolen guns stolen credit cards stolen cars and underage runaways yeah they're like you know what we'll let this slide yeah we got you dead rights but we're gonna let this one slide yeah what so essentially the underlying narrative is that someone wanted the family out there [SPEAKER_00]: Which is weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that really only happens one way It's not Roger Smith being his buddy.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no Any one of these failures, you know miss parole violations drop charges Ignore reports could be explained by incompetence [SPEAKER_01]: But you put them all together, they tend to form a statistical anomaly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson was arrested repeatedly for offensive that sent other parolees back to prison immediately.

[SPEAKER_00]: These dudes lit the fuse and they're just waiting for the boss.

[SPEAKER_00]: 100% They're just waiting.

[SPEAKER_00]: Without fucking question.

[SPEAKER_00]: Come on Charlie.

[SPEAKER_00]: Come on dude.

[SPEAKER_00]: Quit robbing liquor stores, start a race war.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, you know, this would have sent other parolees back to prison immediately.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yet he remains free, mobile, and he gets more and more dangerous.

[SPEAKER_01]: That is fucking bonkers.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, whether this was negligence, institutional blindness, or something more deliberate, the outcome was the same.

[SPEAKER_01]: Charles Manson was allowed to continue.

[SPEAKER_01]: But why?

[SPEAKER_01]: It seems that one, you know, clear conclusions, slash conspiracy seems to pop up.

[SPEAKER_01]: The government wanted to send a message to everyone doing drugs and marching against the war.

[SPEAKER_01]: a true narrative change is that the kids going out and becoming corrupted by the freedoms of the 60s movement would turn them into monsters.

[SPEAKER_01]: This whole piece in love vibe was a lie, which actually seemed to start to sway the public after the murders were publicized.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because after, I guess I'm assuming before these murders, everybody was just kind of [SPEAKER_01]: Public sway starts to happen where they're like way to minute are all these hippies like this So they all are gonna break into our house and and brutally murder us 100% they're not they're not peace peace and love anymore Exactly violence and murdering pregnant women which is fucking crazy That like I mean at the time I guess I understand the confusion, but you look back and you're like that's the obvious connection [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, everything changes after this, the situation.

[SPEAKER_01]: And even more so, O'Neill from the chaos book, he's able to cite other programs that we're running when Manson arrived in San Francisco.

[SPEAKER_01]: You have the FBI's Quintel Pro and the CIA's chaos.

[SPEAKER_01]: These programs were designed to infiltrate left-wing groups like the Black Panthers and neutralize them.

[SPEAKER_01]: To do whatever it takes to make them ineffective and wipe them out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Which of you remember?

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson and the family tried to frame the same panthers that the government wanted to hammer down on weird I mean come on.

[SPEAKER_01]: It cannot be coincident.

[SPEAKER_01]: It cannot be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now one narrative that is pushed around is that these murders took place because Manson wanted to take revenge on Terry Melcher who was a record producer and this was all due to something that happened in the past.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson apparently believed that Terry Melcher lived in the same house, so when his followers got there, they killed whomever was in the house, assuming they had the right people or they believed that they had already crossed the line that they couldn't come back from.

[SPEAKER_01]: Or...

[SPEAKER_01]: It could have been that Manson along with his family went to the Manson mansion, killed Sharon T.

Abigail Folger, Wojik Fryoski, Jay Seabring and Steven Parent, according to the testimonies Manson wasn't saturized.

[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, the crime was committed.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't satisfied by the way, the crime was committed.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to show everyone how to properly execute a murder.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he ended up taking them to Lino, the LeBancia, and his wife Rose Mary's house, and killed them brutally.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's believed that the CIA wanted to infiltrate left-wing groups and on the orders from the agency, the family went in and committed these crimes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson had spent most of his life institutionalized.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was emotionally deprived, repeatedly abused, socially conditioned to Bay Authority, and already skilled at mimicry and manipulation.

[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, he was not a blank slate.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was a perfect accelerant.

[SPEAKER_01]: LSD did not create Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: It removed what little restraint he had left.

[SPEAKER_01]: Quintel Pro and Operation Chaos were not passive intelligence gathering programs.

[SPEAKER_01]: They were designed to fracture movements from the inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: From the inside through paranoia, false attribute to internal conflict and public delegitimization.

[SPEAKER_01]: The Manson murders accomplished all of that without a single government memo being leaked.

[SPEAKER_01]: They discredited the counter culture, intensified fear of radical politics, and justified aggressive policing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Whether intentional or not, the outcome align perfectly with the objectives of these programs.

[SPEAKER_01]: By the late 1960s, MKLTRA had moved beyond labs and universities.

[SPEAKER_01]: LSD had escaped containment, and the counterculture became the perfect testing ground.

[SPEAKER_01]: Transient populations, high drug use, distrust of authority, and zero credibility with law enforcement.

[SPEAKER_01]: If something went wrong, it wouldn't be traced back.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would be dismissed as hippie insanity.

[SPEAKER_01]: The most effective intelligent operations don't require direct orders.

[SPEAKER_01]: Once those conditions are set, people like Manson emerge organically, and do exactly what the system needs them to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: He destabilized movements, radicalized violence, created headlines, framed enemies of the state, and justified repression, all without paperwork.

[SPEAKER_01]: Jolly West wasn't orbiting Manson by chance.

[SPEAKER_01]: He was positioned exactly where outcomes like Manson could be observed, studied, and quietly buried once they went public.

[SPEAKER_01]: West knew what LSD cults would look like.

[SPEAKER_01]: He predicted them, and he also placed himself where they would form.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a coincidence, it's anticipation.

[SPEAKER_01]: intelligence history is full of individuals who are allowed to operate past the point of danger because their behavior produced valuable data.

[SPEAKER_01]: When Manson violated parole repeatedly without consequence, it didn't signal incompetence.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's signaled observation.

[SPEAKER_01]: After the Tate LeBonka murders, the counter culture died overnight.

[SPEAKER_01]: Peace and love became synonyms with insanity, protesters became potential murderers.

[SPEAKER_01]: The shift didn't happen organically, it was catalyzed by fear.

[SPEAKER_01]: By reducing the case to health or scalter madness, Vincent transformed a politically explosive story into a digestible morality play, insanely replaced systems.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lone man, man, replaced institutional failure.

[SPEAKER_01]: The deeper questions were sealed off behind a best sailing book.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe Charles Manson was a coincidence.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe that the timing was accidental, and I don't believe the institutions surrounding him were as ignorant as they claimed to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: Manson looks less like a lone madman and more like a stress fracture or psychological experimentation, counter-cultural chaos and state secrecy finally broke through into the open.

[SPEAKER_01]: If MK Ultra was meant to control the human mind, then Charles Manson wasn't a failure, [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where I'm going to currently leave that episode.

[SPEAKER_00]: It almost makes you, it doesn't make you wonder.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's obviously, it's obvious that they're kind of running the same playbook now.

[SPEAKER_00]: Our government.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, yes, misconstruing things and everything's being chaos and it's, it's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, you don't, it's one of those things to where, [SPEAKER_01]: It's so, and it does feel, you're right, it does feel like a current time because there's times I'm looking at situations that happen.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you're literally like, this is not real.

[SPEAKER_01]: This can't, I could just seem so crazy, which I'm sure back then when this happened because you looked at the counter culture movement with the hippies and shit, I don't, I would never look at a hippie and think I'm gonna get stabbed in the face.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not until not until the man's in the living think about that they didn't even have they didn't have social media They yeah, they had the news they flipped the entire script just like that and that's crazy It's weaponized now with social media.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's what we were kind of talking about that earlier Ironically enough how like we like we we view this almost like there's their perpetrating the world as being this [SPEAKER_01]: This, this burning barrel, just waiting to finally fucking blow.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they did with Charlie, they lit the fuse and they're like, come on bud.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, quit fucking around.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Quit robin liquor stores, quit stealing cars, and you'll do the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Do the thing that we want you to do.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: It also makes me wonder if [SPEAKER_00]: How far back they had been?

[SPEAKER_00]: They had some targeted him.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think it it almost doesn't feel like it started with Jolly West Probably because when he was in prison the first time with Treyho They had him in hypnosis classes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hell a him and Treyho were taking hypnosis classes together.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is like [SPEAKER_00]: They talked they talked about it through the L.S.

[SPEAKER_01]: in and what the fuck are the odds that you're hanging out in prison and somebody's like yes Like you're me or in prison.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like Steve show me a play guitar dude like I'd like to learn I mean what else do I have to lose and then somebody's like hey how about hypnosis class well no before that [SPEAKER_01]: I actually have the connections for Oh, yeah, would producers and stuff.

[SPEAKER_01]: You want you want those?

[SPEAKER_01]: I'll put you in contact with them.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you want to make up, you want to make a hit record?

[SPEAKER_00]: Boy, you're in prison.

[SPEAKER_00]: What are the odds of that?

[SPEAKER_01]: There, it's, it can't be that coincidental.

[SPEAKER_01]: There is whole story.

[SPEAKER_01]: It cannot be.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's, that was the first thing I was thinking.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, [SPEAKER_00]: Jolly West was just the man that ignited the fuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I agree.

[SPEAKER_00]: The fuse was planted years ago, which could lean to how easily he escaped from all these places.

[SPEAKER_01]: It would be, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they tried it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe they were, you know, releasing their experiment once in a while or seeing, you know, observing.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, you could say that all of these terrible things that happened to him could have been by design to create, like, he would create a vessel within his family using LSD, maybe the CIA created a vessel via trauma, like MK Ultra.

[SPEAKER_00]: From a young age with Charles Manson.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that could be fucked up.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah Like put him put him through all this.

[SPEAKER_00]: He he got born in the trauma But then just just pour it on it pour it on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: And what's great on it like I know this is this is kind of far-fetched But it's not because we look at like [SPEAKER_01]: We've done a couple episodes where people are born into, like, having the intent to communicate with aliens or whatever, like we've had these genetic programs selling so forth, right?

[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to think that what if they did the same concept with people like Charles Manson were like at a young age, they influenced his mom to a degree to become a drughead to become a piece of shit essentially could be like that.

[SPEAKER_01]: sounds crazy, but not.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be so fucked up to find out if there was truth behind that where they selectively pick people throughout our time.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I listen.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just, let's just fuck this person's life.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost like like project oak tree with the super soldiers.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's almost the exact opposite.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Take, take the struggleist of the struggles.

[SPEAKER_00]: have them create a child into the struggle.

[SPEAKER_00]: And let's see what we can do with it.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's see how let's see how fucked up we can get it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, see if we can break it to like point as far as humanity goes that sounds like something a crazy ass scientist would do sounds like something to see I would do.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's and I've never did think about anything like that, but I could see it happening it's just fucking so scary crazy so scary.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: So scary.

[SPEAKER_00]: It is nuts.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'm going to have a part two for Mr.

Manson and I'm going to cover more of the murders in the next one and maybe see if there's some links to ritualistic occult types and areas.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm going to I don't think I'm going to walk that road see what we can't come up with.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it'll be interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there will be a part two.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to cover that I centered the rest of Manson's crime and see if it can be linked to the occult and rituals, which is to be interesting to [SPEAKER_01]: walled down that road.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I didn't like I said, Manson was never one of the ones that I really dove into because I always just kind of thought he was a hack and it made more like it makes more sense now.

[SPEAKER_00]: No, and then like he was using the LSD to manipulate the followers and this that [SPEAKER_00]: become a monster become a problem.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Is very interesting spin.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like they were say, I used a great point.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to think that somehow just magically, essentially overnight, even if the overnight is in context of a year, [SPEAKER_01]: how quickly he was able to become this philosopher and prophet and just someone who it gets held in such high regards and would communicate the fuck out all these people.

[SPEAKER_00]: Just overnight.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because like I said, any interviewer I see I saw of him like he just came across as a crazy asshole.

[SPEAKER_00]: And you know what's nuts?

[SPEAKER_01]: You say that.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then remember when I was, I was telling you about Mr.

West there and the things that he was capable of doing, making people like inserting Healthy, like, mental disorders to people and also being able to cover him up.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what if [SPEAKER_01]: What have essentially they they they turn him into like a mentoring candidate were on one on one night he is this brilliant mind this this MC of the masses.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then with the flip of a switch he's crazy drug head.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Or could be the other way.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's just a crazy drug at him with a flip of a switch.

[SPEAKER_00]: He becomes this in a magic charismatic.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, leader Two people who are already like like I said whacked out.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes [SPEAKER_00]: You wouldn't, you don't feel like it would take that much to become a profit to a bunch of people who are impending looking for a profit, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: True story.

[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was a live live information in there that I was not expecting, because I'm not a big true crime guy, but I was, like I said, I was watching that wayward TV show and it's kind of fits the same narrative where you have this person who's manipulating people [SPEAKER_01]: me and my wife were just talking and I'm like, man, it sounds so much like the man's in case, because I've heard rumors about man's in being tied with him, K.

Alter.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know what, fuck, and I'm going to look into it and see what I can find.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's how this was born.

[SPEAKER_01]: interesting informational sweared crazy show unexpected thing of day trail i don't know if it's not a big time at the same time it kind of fifth bill two is a trail does he's kind of a rough around the edges [SPEAKER_00]: makes you wonder if Danny Treho was also in the program, but he went the opposite direction.

[SPEAKER_00]: We can take this other person from the exact same like cell block and make him successful.

[SPEAKER_01]: That would be weird, but it's experiment, so it's possible.

[SPEAKER_00]: It does, but after listening, it doesn't feel that far-fetched.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I don't want it to be true because I like Danny Treho.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, if it, if it got him off of the path that he was on that obviously put him in prison, maybe there is a good side to the coin.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, a such story where you couldn't.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if it wasn't experiment, you're going to have successes, you're going to have failures depending on what you're looking for.

[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.

[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you created, if you made a mancin to become a mancin, then they succeeded.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you took a man's in and tried to turn him in to like, what's the word I'm looking for here?

[SPEAKER_00]: A productive citizen, you did not succeed.

[SPEAKER_01]: See, I like that too, cause, [SPEAKER_01]: You, if you, if you look at it like that, where you're saying, you got Trejo and Manson and Prism, and we'll just say, MK Ultra gets a hold of them both, and they're like, let's see what we can do with both these guys.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they make one, the absolute nightmare.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one, I'll say as the absolute dream.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, you could look at Danny Trejo's, [SPEAKER_01]: record so to speak and be like, well, he was in some movies and he's not that successful.

[SPEAKER_01]: But like Steve pointed out and like I said during the show, at the time, they were in contact with a bunch of movie producers and so on and so forth.

[SPEAKER_01]: And if Steve's theory would be correct, [SPEAKER_01]: that they can also do this to politicians and we're leaders because like I said, they treat it's not about anything other than he's proof of concept.

[SPEAKER_01]: They made him like Steve says, great observation.

[SPEAKER_01]: he went from being in prison to being a successful actor and that that's proof of concept because I don't know resting.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know Danny Treho's life story, you know, when he from when he was younger, but something put him on the path to prison, which is the same path the Charles Manson took and they they integrated each other at that point, the thing that's selling it for me is that they both took the hypnosis classes.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: That can't I'm like that there can't be a very high percentage of prisoners that took a hypnosis class You wouldn't think so especially when it leads like when Manson's path went to Jolly West where Jolly West literally uses the term hypnosis in in the shit he's dealing with stuff he's doing Like that's That's a stretch of a coincidence It is weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is weird.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's strange.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I like it [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, hang out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for hanging out first off.

[SPEAKER_00]: Keep hanging out.

[SPEAKER_00]: We got a little free day trail.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I found out Danny Trail.

[SPEAKER_00]: Glad you got your life to do it.

[SPEAKER_00]: So on the show, bro.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, come and talk about where you're stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: I know you know some weird stuff.

[SPEAKER_00]: Be awesome.

[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, yeah, hang out.

[SPEAKER_00]: Part two, part two may be on the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: Might be on the way, so keep an eye out for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: But again, sorry, I hit the, hit the mic with the water bottle and nothing paranormal there.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for hanging out with us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for kicking it through the weirdness.

[SPEAKER_00]: Hope your work week's going well.

[SPEAKER_00]: Check us out at all the socials.

[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you like and subscribe and check out the YouTube and all that jargon.

[SPEAKER_00]: And to meet again, stay safe, stay weird, and don't brush the government because they're always up to some shit.