Pushkin.

Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions.

I'm Maria Kannakova.

And I'm Nate Silver.

I don't like it up, all right, Nate Silver.

Today on the show, we're actually doing an episode that's inspired by one of our listeners, Brandon.

So, by the way, listeners, please do keep sending us questions.

And Brandon is wondering about performance enhancing drugs.

He specifically asked for performance enhancing drugs outside of sports, but I think we'll be talking about sports as well.

So in the army, he says that they talk a lot about alertness, decision making under stress.

Caffeine is basically a field issue stimulant.

He goes on to talk about adderall modafinal and the fact that it's being used not just in military, but you know, college students, professionals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

So he wants to know what are our thoughts and what are our experiences, and you know, it definitely does say a lot about modern performance culture.

So this is a topic that I've done a lot of thinking about, both in the past but also obviously as I'm working on a book about cheating.

You know, I do think about all of these ways to kind of enhance performance that may or may not be legal in any given setting.

And I think there's a lot to say here.

Do you want me to start with some thoughts, Nate, or do you want to kind of give you give your reaction.

So, you know, people have been trying to figure out for decades, like how can I think better?

Right?

How can I perform better?

How can I run better?

How can I do everything just a little bit better?

You know, it's kind of a perfect storm with kind of social media and technology and all of these things where we're in a culture that's obsessed with I mean, the culture has always been obsessed with youth, but now we feel like, finally like we're in then do not die ever moment that if I can just live for another ten years, I'll be close to the moment in time where we can all live forever or at least greatly expand our life expectancy and our healthy life expectancy.

So don't die.

And also let's absolutely optimize every single moment of every single day cognitive function, physical function.

In the case of certain social media influencer gurus who also happen to run big companies that sell supplements a rectile function measured during the night.

We won't be naming names, but I think anyone who's online knows exactly who I'm talking about right now.

So how do you basically enhance every single element of existence to the max?

And we're seeing things, Yes, some of them are pills.

Modaffanel has been kind of in in the mix for a long time, so has adderall.

There are other drugs that have been basically tested for Alzheimer's and that are now also kind of in that conversation.

But it's not just drugs, right, It's things like cold plunges, infra red saunas.

You know, do you do this to do that?

Like?

What can I possibly do to get just like a little bit better?

And this is not a monolithic conversation in the sense that there's a big difference between like poker players who that they're going to microdose before a tournament because they think it's going to make them more creative and find better spots.

This does happen, by the way, I'm not just throwing this out in the blue and like a Lance Armstrong who decides that, you know, everyone's doping in cycling, so I'm going to do it too, and we're going to create this culture where everyone is taking drugs that are explicitly forbidden to enhance their performance.

Right, So we've got it's a huge spectrum, right, And there's a huge spectrum between the college student who decides to take adderall even though they technically don't have ADHD, so that they can finish a paper, which, by the way, Nate, is probably not happening anymore because you have chat GBT who's your aderol, who could just finish the paper for you, so you don't even need to take those supplements that was you know, long before, or the investment baggers taking cocaine in the middle of the night to kind of stay up and make sure that they can get their their spreadsheets or whatever it is that they're doing done by the morning.

And then the wellness gurus who say, well, even though medafinil is a drug that was developed for narcolepsy and sometimes to treat ADHD and may not be the thing that I should be taken to kind of enhance my concentration, even though there's a little bit of data on that.

But I'm going to do it just in case because I want to kind of maximize my ability to be the full me.

All of these things are different, right, and I have different opinions on these, on the different gradations along the way, and even ones that seem very straightforward, such as, you know, we should not be allowing any performance enhancing drugs in sports, When you start digging down, it ends up that some of them might be like a little bit murkier than you would think, right.

I would I would love to say that I'm just you know, we shouldn't be doing any of this, but you know, as are as listener Brandon points out, caffeine is a great performance enhancing drug, right, So it's not like everyone is living this existence where we're not taking any substances to increase performance.

You need to kind of figure out what exactly are you talking about.

And I think that this is one of those episodes where there are going to be a lot of shades of gray.

I think that it's one of these case by case basis where you have to really understand what's the intention here, what are the data here, what is the responsibility here, and what are the rules here?

Yeah, in the poker world, do you have an interesting cross section of a little bit of everything.

Right, you certainly have some stimulant use ranging for people who are probably taking out of all the people who are taking zims or vaping you.

Oh yeah, by the way, let me just interrupt you immediately just to say, we said caffeine, but nicotine is another huge performance enhancing drug that people take all the time, and zin is gaining huge market shares.

I seeeson at the poker tables all the time.

Please continue, Yeah, and in part because like those are as weird as smoking cigarettes, right, which is more disruptive, you know, those are kind of more discreet ways to do with that, you know.

But yeah, people are taking anterall people are.

There's varying amounts of drinking.

People are different tolerances.

I will often have a best of one or two at dinner a poker tournament, right, But like everyone, we have differently different things, you know what I mean.

And so you have to know kind of your own I'm not claim aning of this is game theory optimal, right, you have to kind of know your own physiology a little bit, but not as much drinking as you might have seen twenty years ago, you know, I've always surprised that there are some players who get quite stoned on dinner breaks and stuff like that, or any break, right.

I mean, we were talking about the well known player Maria the other day who seemed to me quite stone and not playing optimally, And you have some of those, but like there are some people who are microdocing on different things, and like again I don't know, right, it's also partly a matter of habit, right, for whatever reason, probably done more drugs than you in my life, Maria forever reason.

Like I've just never really tried to play poker under the influence of THC, though I'm not familiar with THC, whereas I have on alcohol, and so like you're just kind of like part of what you're familiar with I think about poker.

It's also important, though, is like these are really long sessions, particularly in tournaments, right, So things that sustain energy and focus for a long time, like you know, you don't typically see like necessarily like a lot of like cocaine used to take an extreme example of poke returnaments because like that is a drug where you kind of burn brightly for very quickly and then crash out right.

You know that will work if you're playing from noon to midnight in some tournament.

I mean, unless you're taking a lot of it, I guess right.

But adderall, which is kind of a controlled version of speed, is something and riddle.

These are things that are that are actually incredibly common in the poker world, and they are common not just in the poker world, but in all sorts of professions that require concentration, right, that require people to kind of pay attention for long periods of time.

And the funny thing is, so I've actually written about this, and I have kind of dug a little bit deeper into the data.

With drugs like adderall, I think this is true of a lot of performance enhancing drugs when you are taking anything that is off label, right, which means that it's not prescribed for this exact condition, especially when it's something that is for a cognitive function and meant to counteract something that is kind of a neurological abnormality or something that is kind of not a neurotypical brain.

When you put it into a neurotypical brain that doesn't have these issues, you might get some benefits, but also some unintended side effects.

So the funny thing I mean, I think it's funny because I don't do adderall or riddle an off label.

The funny thing about it is that there's actually a disconnect when you take these drugs, quite often with what you think your work product is and what it actually is, because it does put you into this like laser focus where you think, oh, I'm writing like a brilliant paper, or I'm creating this brilliant work product, or if I'm playing pogram, you know, being able to execute all these wonderful creative lines.

But it actually really dampens creativity and makes you create things that to you might seem great, but that actually objectively you're working a lot, but your work output is not necessarily what you think it is.

And so it's a very funny disconnect between self perception and actual performance.

And so when it comes to cognitive enhancement, that is something that you see now.

Obviously when it's physical, usually there's no disconnect between what you think you're doing and how you're doing because you have an objective measure immediately, right, am I running faster?

Am I cycling faster?

Am I able to actually lift more weight?

Right?

When I use steroids?

Whatever it is?

But when it comes to cognitive enhancement, you have these funny things.

Yeah, we talked to Nick Thompson, the author of The Running Round.

Nick is one of the best runners in the world and age class the other week.

Right, Well, one of the things about running is that there's not much variation in it, right, You're running of existence.

Most people who a runners are running a few routes.

If they run commonly.

That can be a few things.

It can be traffic, right, you can other joggers and stuff like that, right, or wind or weather right, But like for the most part, it can be a fairly objective benchmark about your kind of overall partiovascular et cetera health that day, in your effort level.

Whereas in poker it's extremely noisy.

You know, the best poker players might have in the tough field and ROI of plus ten percent and a mediocre player on his B game, not the C game, not the F game, but like on this B game, right, might be minus ten percent, right, plus ten which is minus saying oh, of course, of one poker tournament.

You don't protect the dissample of like hundreds of tournaments to distinguish those And yeah, I certainly have had.

It's kind of a common thing among writers too, to use like things like adderall.

I've certainly been around people who seem to be constantly on adderall and they're talking a mile a minute and they're kind of hyper right and kind of babbling, And you know, that's not a drug that leaves me with a great impression.

But like again, I'm not gonna my own habits right, good and bad.

I'm not gonna creaque anybody.

My empirical experience is that one's a bit more noticeable than than some of the others, maybe among the drugs that people are kind of using for cognitive entancement.

Yeah, so just full disclaimer, I've never used any cognitive enhancing pills.

And I say pills because I drink a fuck ton of caffeine.

Okay, yeah, so like and I've actually never used nicotine, so I've never I'm I'm gonna come across those kind of this goody two shoes, but I do I drink, and you know, I'm not doing this for like moral reasons or anything.

It's just not I don't think it's right for me.

And also I have a lot of allergies and can stand smoke.

But I've never used any nicotine products.

I've never smoked cigarettes.

No nicotine.

By the way, poker players also love nicotine pills, nicotine patches, not just poker players.

Like this is stuff that people use.

They get into the science and they listen to the kind of gurus of how to enhance your performance peak performance at any given time, and they do stuff like that.

So just total disclaimer, I've never used any of those, but I do use caffeine.

And when I play poker, I am always drinking green tea, and I specifically drink green tea because I've done the research and I know that green tea has the best kind of way of absorbing elthonine into your brain, which helps you sustain your attention for longer periods of time.

Am I using a performance enhancing drug, Nate, you know what I mean?

Like I realized, I'm not trying to practice semantics here.

All I'm saying is that we do make choices all the time that try to optimize how we're doing today.

By the way, no amount of green tea is probably going to make me at absolute peak performance because I didn't get that much sleep.

And what we know is the number one cognitive enhancing drug is sleep.

Like nothing else, nothing else comes even close.

So getting proper amounts of sleep is just like, you know, light years ahead of anything else.

And so when you do something like that, well obviously it's not a performance enhancing drug, but it might as well be.

So you know, there are so let's just I guess put a disclaimer and say, Okay, yes, there's things that everyone does, like caffeine and it might give you a little bit more cognitive power.

And then there are other things that people use that are more out there, and we can argue that while nicotine is closer to caffeine, or we can argue that it's not, but modafino definitely kind of on the other on the other.

Side of that.

And do you have a prescription, right, is it something that you are actually using correctly because you need to.

Oh and by the way, if you do have a prescription for it because you need to, is that giving you an unfair advantage?

Is it giving you an unfair edge?

They're all of these, you know, when we start getting into the ethics of it.

Oh and by the way, poker doesn't ban any sort of substances, So that's like That's another thing here.

Right, there's a didn't sama, which is yes, there was, there was.

It's like, come on, yeah, he proposed a drug free poker tournament where you could not where you'd get tested, and you weren't allowed to use anything.

I don't know if caffeine was included in that, because if it was, then you know, sorry, Tom, I'm I'm totally out.

But but yeah, I do want to say that it's not against the rules in poker to take whatever the fuck you want to take, And to be perfectly honest, I would say, like, if you want to take it, go right ahead, because I actually don't think it gives you that much of an edge, and I think it sometimes might make you play worse.

And we'll be right back after this break.

We can put some bounds on this, right, Like, It's not like in poker there are look, you could make educated guesses about exactly which helpful and or unhelpful substances different players are taking, you know, maybe apart from the really stone players and the really adderally ones.

Right, And it's not necessarily so obvious, right, you know, it's not like there's some class of players that are like thirty percent better than the rest.

You're like, oh, they're all on the drug apps, right, And there are exotic things that are very subtle.

You know, some of the players take beta blockers.

I'm not an expert in any of this stuff, but I think it has the effect of like lowering your heart rate and things like that, which can be helpful to a remain calmer maybe when you're under high stress, and or to reduce the appearance of physical tells.

Right.

I remember actually the main event of the World Series right where there was a guy I put against a day two or day three right saying, right across from him, he just kind of thing where like his heart was like literally kind of very visible, and it's whatever artery carctorate or something artery, right, every player knows it corroded, corroded.

And it was the most visible instance of this I'd ever seen.

It's the main event.

He had a fairly big sack on day three whatever it was.

And and furthermore, he basically had like a running heart rate monitor for this player at all times, right, Like furthermore, I quickly do so there was a pattern that when he has a good hand, some players actually more nerves than their bluffing, right, this guy waiting in a big hand.

Do you start to see boom boom boom boom of this kind of it was kind of funny, right, but like, yeah, but the physical tell you know, if if you start having a bunch of predictable involuntary takes, or if you can suppress those ticks in some ways, you know, it's not creating just like a pigd use.

And poker is not created as like some yeah moral panic wearers and the other world I know sports then than it is of course, yeah, And I think.

So let's uh, let's actually talk about that a little bit because so I have very very different perspectives about using all of these drugs, all of these techniques, whatever whatever you want to use when it is allowed versus when it's not allowed.

So poker, you know, knock yourself out.

If you are an investment banker and you want to add her all it up or cocaine it up or whatever, it is awesome, like you do you right, and if your superiors are happy with your work, awesome.

My onion changes completely when we have explicit rules that say, okay, you can not take you know, these performance enhancing drugs right when we're talking about cycling.

The argument but everyone's doing it to me holds no water, right, I don't fucking care like that.

That is, if it's a rule, that it means that everyone is cheating.

If everyone is cheating, either you call out the cheating, you quit the sport, you know, you do something else.

And it's interesting because there, you know, as I've been kind of researching cheating in games, I talked to a baseball player who was roommates with another player who was suspended for for using steroids and coast I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say anything else, Nate.

You know these sports a little too well.

And it was one of these things where you know, this roommate said, like I, you know, people were doing I just thought it was wrong, so I didn't and like, I have no regrets about it, even though kind if my roommate ended up having like a much more storied career for a time than I did, because like I, you know, I said, I basically said no, and my career ended like I, you know, eventually kind of had to retire.

And but it's not like you're forced to do it.

You make choices.

So anyway, you can.

I don't care if, like, if the culture is that everyone is doing it.

What I care about it is it within the rules or is it not within the rules.

And if you it's not within the rules and you're doing it, then you're cheating.

And if you're trying to figure out ways of doing it without getting caught by using these new drugs and aren't yet detectable on tests, then again you're cheating, and you're cheating in an even more kind of insidious way.

That is ruining the kind of sportsmanship right the the playing field for everyone else, and that is kind of ruining the integrity of your sport.

And I you know, things like Nate, you know, the enhanced games that were announced like that.

I'm like, yeah, like, what what are we even talking about?

Like, I guess people, you know, you want to see a lot of people on steroids go like to me, that's not even a sport.

I'm like, well, what are we even doing here?

And I think a lot of athletes felt the same way.

So on the one hand, I said, there were going to be a lot of shades of gray here and this seems black and white, But I'm actually going to take a step back and put it back into the shades of gray.

So one of my favorite sports stories that I think I've mentioned on this podcast before, but I'm just going to say it again was this champion of Finnish skier whom I've written about in the past, Iro Manturanta.

I apologize if I'm mispronouncing that I don't speak Finnish, but he one seven Olympic medals over four games, three gold medals, two silver medals, two bronze medals, and at the time, like no one had done anything comparable, right, Like that's insane if you're thinking about seven metals over four games, like, holy shit.

And he was accused of doping, and he was tested, and it seemed to confirm that he was doping because the red blood cells in his blood there were multiple deviations away from the average range, and so he was accused of doping.

But then it turned out that he didn't dope.

He was actually clean, and he carried a genetic mutation in a receptor that controls the production of red blood cells, and that genetic mutation ran in his family, right, So it turns out that basically his entire family were kind of these mutants that had this red blood cell the plant that was just constantly, you know, basically constantly doping their blood.

By the way, this is not if people are listening to this and it's like, who can I do this?

Please don't because this mutation also causes polythemia, which is a disease of red blood cells, and monty Ante did have it, but he didn't have any of the negative symptoms.

But anyway, so you have this person who was absolutely cleared right and he wasn't doping, but he just naturally had this insane advantage.

Now you can look at someone like this and say, well, if he has this mutation and he's basically naturally doping, shouldn't we allow everyone else to kind of dope to the same level.

And I don't think that's true because then, you know, you can start making that argument with all sorts of different things.

But that just goes to show that there are so many different variations here, and there's so much about the human body that we don't know, and it's so easy to start making the you know, the fairness argument that I think that that's it's an argument that we shouldn't be trying to make because people are different and so all we can do is to try to make rules that control that control to the best of our abilities, what substances you can use to enhance your performance versus how you can enhance your performance through your own physical merits and metal.

Because you know, isn't that the purpose of watching sports and kind of watching competitors, right, that we see what the human body is capable of on its own.

We'll be back right after this.

Yeah, look to some degree, especially in like maybe Olympic type sports, which are sometimes sometimes a little bit more linear functions of particular type of ability in one or two areas, right, I mean you are selecting for people who are genetic, yeah, genetic super You know the other thing this comes up, it's gonna mention it once, right, is you'll periorectically get athletes who are intersect in some form.

It's not really the same thing as frans, right, it's you know, how they're born.

They're born, yeah, chromosome.

But inherently I have to draw some lines because you know, we're not gonna talk about the gender binary vertus spectrum here, But if you're looking for outliers, you're going to find people who outliers in lots of different ways and that and that creates issues, but they look, Yeah, the game theory part of this that we haven't invoked yet is that you do have any prisoners still limon when other people are are doping.

Right, So, like in any workplace kind of culture, I mean, the initial question comes from like the army, right, the you know, what is tolerated.

Versus tacitly encouraged versus not so tacitly encouraged versus you know, but you also get to a point where like maybe you're just kind of falling behind in an extremely high performance area if if everyone else is doing something.

You're not buried bonds.

I guess the most famous slash infamous steroid user in baseball history was kind of like this fucking Mark maguire and Sammy Sosa guys, they're juicing, right.

I was better than them before steroids alleged, and I'm gonna be better than these fucking guys afterwards.

So I'm gonna take steroids too.

When he has like what are still the best offensive seasons in baseball history and kind of, you know, just this kind of huge nonlinear outlier season, seventy three home runs in a year, you know whatever, it was a six hundred on base percentage are very very high.

Right, But you a prison's love if you don't have like you know, it's the same thing as like cat GPT being used to cheat in college essays.

Right, if you don't have good enforcement, then like then you get in the dilema where it's like all my classmates are doing this shit, right, so like why do I have to work five times as hard as them and get like a worse grade?

And look, I don't know how effective these regimes actually are in different sports.

You know, if you told me that, hey, people are using things that are hard to detect, that wouldn't surprise me, Right, you know, I think sports have kind of figured it out that, like to have a big moral outrage and panic over this isn't necessarily good for business.

Right.

There are still a couple baseball players that could suspend it every year for different types of peds.

Right, It's not quite perceived as a pr thing that it was.

And like the in the you know, late nineteen nineties and early two thousands, which is kind of considered the whole steroid era, you know, baseball has this kind of record book that's very sacred, right.

People care a lot about the home run record and the betting average record and everything else, right whereas in football it's a bit less too.

People Football flavor a team sport.

You know, football a little bit more slaps on the wrist for different types of pedus.

You know, Look, you can even if you want to get funky, you can even say, okay, are you being a bad teammate by not using steroids?

Right?

You know, well, yeah, I.

Mean I think that the only like the way out of this prisoner's dilemma is through external enforcement and penalties, right where the benefits in the moment of doping are outweighed by the potential penalties.

So you know what comes to mind to me right now is Russia in the Olympics, right where you had basically an entire delegation doping, including including some athletes who didn't realize that they were doping because the coaches just gave them supplements and like said, this is the health regime, and we're giving these performance enhancing drugs to everyone, or at least that's the story.

And I actually believe it in the sense that I believe that there were athletes who had no idea that they were doping, and then you know, you strip every one of the medals, you disqualify them, and then the team can't compete in the Olympics, and no one can compete in the Olympics.

That's a pretty big disincentive, right That will tell people, Okay, you know what, maybe this is not a good idea because the risks and the penalties will have to pay far outweigh the benefit of winning, you know, gold medal now, because we're going to lose that gold medal anyway, and then we're not going to be able to compete going forward.

So if you had standards like that across the board, and if you really take the enforcement seriously, then I think that changes behavior because that changes behavioral incentives, and that changes the culture from everyone is doing it to okay, people are not going to be doing it anymore.

But you also have to be smart, right, You also have to test correctly and you have to stay on top of this shit, right you can't.

You have to have people who are out in the field figuring out what are the latest drugs, like, what is the cutting edge, what are people using?

How do we detect this so that you don't have situations where cheaters are trying to kind of stay ahead of the system, which also creates very perverse incentives.

Yeah, look, and that you're willing to like punish the actual cheaters, you know, absolutely.

Johnick Sinner, who is one of the two best men'sness players in the world, has been accused of doping taking case amounts of coster ball.

It looks like I'm not a steroid knowledgeable person, community stairoid nolatile person.

But you know, hey, if he's a big draw, maybe each hearing the other cheek.

I mean, we've seen, you've seen the poker world as nothing great about people who are big names get away with a lot more.

Right.

Yeah, with that said, if you look at the whole list of all Major League Baseball players who have been suspended, which is kind of the longest, most consistent regime, there definitely are some all stars, right.

However, it has moved more towards the more marginal players because, like, you know, if you're ten percent better, I mean it's also an open question kind of how much sexually helps, right, But leaning that aside, if you get ten percent better and you're already pretty good, I mean that definitely produces benefits, right, absolutely, But you probably already have all the money you'll need for life.

I mean, baseball's a sport that has long careers.

If you are taking kind of like long term risks with your health, right, I mean, you know, some of these anacolic steroids are not about to be good for your long term health, right, they may help in the short run, right, Yeah, if you're on the margins of the major leagues and you get in a major league roster, where what's some minim cell I'm sure you know if mid six figures now at least, right, you get that for a couple of years, you get a major league tension, you get your first post draft team contract, I will use I'm gonna avoid more textual small terms here onence being I know them, right, but like you know, if you get like a real free agent contract.

By your audience, you mean you're a co host night my co host.

Yeah, so some more marginal guys who are trying to extend their careers, right, because ten percent better when there's a whole threshold and anything all threshold of talent near the break even line either just good enough to make the major leagues you're just good enough to have a regular starting job or just not good enough, right, And most are the people where there's the most pressure, even though it's the Vury Bonds and the Yonick Centers and stuff the world that receive more public scrutiny.

Yeah, so I think kind of to to sum up, I think we both agree that if we want to keep it clean, like first of all, like performance enhancing drugs, yeah or nay, like in things where it's where people don't care, like poker, you know, whatever you do you once again, because we don't even know what benefits necessarily these are coming from any of these things.

In areas where there are explicit rules against them, right like sports, then absolutely not.

And I don't think there should be exceptions.

And I think that you know, big big names need to get just as much, need to be penalized just as much as smaller names.

To bring it back to poker, this means that you know, things that are illegal, like cheating of different sorts which are not cognitive drugs or anything like that needs to be like very strictly punished no matter who you are, even if you're kind of the number one name in the game.

I don't care.

You need to realize that there are going to be very strict penalties against these sorts of behaviors.

And that's the way that you kind of emerge from the prisoner's dilemma that you were describing, Nate.

So we've got, you know, we've got areas like poker where it's legal.

You've got areas like sports where it's not.

Then you've got areas like the army where presumably they're doing their research and they want people to function as well as they possibly can.

And that's its own Yeah, that's its own beast, right.

Yeah.

Sure, if you think that this is going to create better soldiers and the soldiers are okay with it, then by all means, right, like we want the best functioning force.

And there your analogy of are you hurting the team if you don't do it?

Well?

Are you hurting the team if you're in the army where the other country has people using this and you aren't, Yeah, you kind of are.

And so so that's like that's its own different can of worms.

Right, that's a totally different area.

But I would say that, you know, please do try to figure out whether you're mortgaging your health in the long term, because I think a lot of people don't realize that there is a long term cost to a lot of these performance enhancing drugs.

Yeah.

My general thing is assume that in competitive industries, which basically everything is now in our capitalistic world.

I don't like capitalism, Maria, but like assume that people will optimize for their incentives.

Right, if you create rules that are easily to work around or are poorly structured, and there's a lot of money or fame or championships to win on the line, assume that some substantial fraction of your player of population in a sport or game, right, will have no moral qualms about taking advantage of of both words.

Yeah, but that said, I'm going to have a performance enhancing drug called lunch.

Likewise, night, let's both go enhance our performance by food.

Let us know what you think of the show.

Reach out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM.

Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.

And by me Nate Silver.

The show was a Cool production of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia.

This episode was produced by Isaac Carter.

Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwit Lydia, Jean Kott, and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.

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