Welcome to the Next.

The Next is a monthly podcast from the Female Athlete Project.

Each episode, futurist and former athlete Rihanna Brown joins Chloe and Bez to explore what's changing in women's sport before it hits the headlines.

We shine a light on the pockets of the future already here.

The signals have changed that are quietly or not so quietly, reshaping women's sport in the present.

Ree welcome back in person this week.

I'm here for it all this month.

Irl Irl, The kids say, Irl, I.

Enjoy being Irl with you.

Me too.

I can feel the size of your brain in the room.

It's a presence.

It's definitely a presence in a tiny body with my legs swinging off the bottom of this chair.

Tiny body, big brain.

How have you been since we last chatted?

Very flat out, lots of tabs open, lots of travel, lots of interesting conversations.

Yeah, I love that, and you.

Bears, yeah, just existing.

Yeah, you're busy.

I can see your brain over there as busy, not as big, just.

As busy, just busy, less tabs.

Less tabs.

Ray, What have you been noticing lately?

Something I thought I would never really notice or pay attention to.

I think we're I think we're all a bit not out of like you know, fish out of water here, but yeah we are.

Let's be real.

I definitely am.

But I mean that's very telling of the topic, right, It's getting very hard to ignore.

So I've been noticing a lot around fashion, fashion, fashion, beauty, and women's sport.

It's really hard to not notice that.

So this is about the convergence between the three, not just in ways where it's new sponsorship.

This is really about a deeper cultural shift that's starting to change both industries both ways, which I think is really interesting.

So fashion and beauty moving from a thing on the side to being part and entangled in the system of women's sport, which of course raises a whole bunch of questions around whether these shifts are good, what are the consequences, upside downsides, Is this a great thing?

Is this a liberating thing?

Or is it just a smarter way to sell.

So lots happening.

I went down a lot of rabbit holes that my algorithm had never been down before.

I'm quite impressed by you.

People should see the documents that she pulls together.

There is some serious detail in here.

Let's kick off this conversation and talk about what you touch on there.

The entanglement of fashion, beauty and apparel growing together.

How does that work in parallel?

So three or four big industries really going through the roof.

We know the women's sport is growing.

Everybody cites that Deloitte paper.

I'm sure there's other research, but everybody knows beauty is massive.

This is one hundreds of billions of dollars industry, and they're hungry for new still, and they're hungry for new markets.

I would say young people, tweens, kids, and women's sport.

Apparel is a whole new thing.

My partner has an apparel business, my nephew had a fleeting apparel business.

It's like a whole amazing thing that's going on as an industry.

Sports merch shifting had become a street a street wear and a fashion item.

So these big industries that have been growing in parallel, but now they're starting to entangle and become part of the bigger ecosystem.

There's a lot of brands that come to mind when we talk about this, right, Like I remember we post about these things all the time, like Charlotte Tilbury with their fine Academy being a partner there.

All the WNBA stuff was this Sophora, the bags dropping from the sky, probably not the sky because they're indoor stadiums, but that was from the roof thing from the That's the word I was looking for, thank you, like makeup bags dropping from the roof to people sitting watching WNBA games.

The fact that gloss he has the official beauty partner of the w NBA and USA Basketball.

They're not just like these really short term deals as a one off.

Yeah.

I think the shift for me is that it hasn't just been these brands just dabbling in and around the edge.

They are going all in.

I think when I was watching the super Bowl there was four beauty brands in the super Bowl.

I no, that's not women's sport, but for me, that's its own telling indicator to say beauty fashion has arrived in sport.

You could almost say that Super Bowl is the mecha of sport advertising.

It's oh yeah, totally soon halftime as.

The halftime show.

Well, the ads space is so expensive.

So if someone's willing to invest in the ad space for beauty products and tells you what they're trying to sell, and.

I don't want to give Taylor Swift too much credit.

I think she's an exceptional artist, by the way, but I'll get into I'll get no, I'm not.

I'm definitely not, but I'll get in trouble from Riley if I that.

Do you even listen to the podcast?

Riley?

She definitely doesn't say with my pana, this is a.

Test, this is the test.

I think probably it's important to recognize that Taylor Swift obviously has brought a lot of new fans to the NFL and their whole story and all those kind of things, but there are a huge amount of women that have been long been supporters of the NFL.

So it's just really interesting when these brands recognize moments like Taylor Swift.

But they could have been advertising and commercializing their products to these women's fans of the NFL prior.

Do you know what I'm trying to say?

That's a weird way to say.

Did you get what I'm saying?

I do?

I mean women's women watch sport and they're sports fans.

It's a surprise to some industries borting industries and sectors, but when there are big moves like that signal around the Super Bowl.

That's when my brain says the change has changed.

And there's a lot of reasons why they would want to invest in women's sport.

We know around athletes driving social engagement, female athletes driving more social engagement, women's sports sponsorships growing at.

A faster rate, right.

Yes, And there was some research I was reading around trust.

Trust is a big thing.

It's very I mean, how do you measure trust?

I guess for a start, but people that were surveyed said that they trust a female athlete more than a male athlete just because of their holistic approach to sport.

I think is probably the crux of it.

It's just that the female athlete seems more wholesome on the outside.

And so if a female athletes says that you should you know, this is what I wear, you should wear it too, people are into it.

Yeah.

I mean intuitively, maybe I'm biased, but if Meg Glanning got behind a product, I'm probably going to trust it exactly.

Yeah.

So that's a big statement, isn't it.

Yeah?

Definitely.

So, I mean that's part of all of these things are converging, of all of these industries going kaboom, recognizing that women sport and women's sports fans are a target, and now watching big shifts and big players from beauty and fashion move into the space.

You guys both said off the top that this is not uncharted waters, but this is not maybe our standard topic of conversation.

I somewhat disagree because this next topic I've seen both of you.

You're often in sports merch, right, can we talk about kit and merch?

So you guys absolutely can talk to these Yes, maybe not the beauty part.

You're not the Sephora fan consumer.

What Sephora.

The thing that drops from the sky.

Yeah, but I think that the kit is a huge part of this, and we've seen this real shift from just being able to buy the exact kit that the athlete might wear on game day to a whole plethora of whatever you want to buy to be able to, I guess, represent yourself as an indie you're supporting a team or club.

Yeah, And there's probably two reasons if I think about the selection of things that I wear.

One is because it's not just a suvidive as a sports fan anymore.

I think it's becoming an advocacy piece to say that I wear this represent this, but it's also an emerging business model and a new funding mechanism because women's sport are starting to see it as a fashion opportunity.

And I mean I think of this example of like, this isn't necessarily new, but maybe it is for women's sport.

I think of Jay Z's I just mangle this so bad.

But you know the lyrics in his song where he's like he made the Yankee hat more famous than the Yankees can.

Yeah, I don't, but that lyric it's iconic.

Yeah, well it's it's the song's iconic.

Really, it's that.

So it's an advocacy piece, it's a piece of fashion, and it's a new funding mechanism for those very reasons.

So we look at the merch record sales WNBA record sales.

I feel like I referenced WNBA a lot because I watch and read a lot around the WNBA.

But twenty twenty three, Matilda's Kit outsold the soccer Owos by thirteen times.

Love that me too.

England the Lioness's win in twenty twenty, so their shirt sails rose seven hundred and fifty percent compared to twenty nineteen.

There was a massive drama at the beginning of the Rugby World Cup because the Red Roses had signed with a new English the RFU English Rugby Union had signed with a new provider, and they had not made enough jerseys.

They were completely underestimated the sales.

I'm not going to throw that.

I don't know.

I can't remember that providers.

It was one of the newer ones.

But yeah, they were rushing to find more jerseys because it got to start the World Cup and everything was sold out.

Which seems like quite a common story.

I think in women's bought like the same thing with the goalkeepers jersey for the Matilda's exactly.

So it's it's I mean, the demand is there and that's a really good indicator of that when when having enough stock.

But it's also allowing sports women's sports to generate new funding mechanisms.

Uniforms particularly, and now merch.

It's not just uniforms, it's tended.

To the whole.

Merch used to sit as like an administrative decision in the back end.

Now it's like wow, as these other things converge around fashion and streetwear and sport and culture, it's becoming a serious revenue raising mechanism.

Interestingly, what you've said there is exactly what I think, you know is my kind of approach to it.

Merch used to be support aware and jersey and like you said, I believe in this and this athlete and this team, and that's why I'm wearing this too.

Now genuinely a fashion item that I'm going to wear out on Saturday night.

And that's where that shift has gone, you know, like it's not just a jersey, It's now something that is part of culture and fashion.

Pasian as we may say it's.

Fashion, I mean we know Again, I always look at the signals of where the changes are that Batan designers are now entering the space.

Some leagues are bringing them in intentionally, but this idea of fashion forward as a way to expand commercial reach.

So Angel City did a whole bunch of collabs around a luxury streetwear collaboration, but I think they also did stuff with Hello Kitty, and the whole premise was this isn't just a uniform mis sell there's an entire fashion label and brand here with really huge responses.

I don't think we can talk about any of this without probably addressing the elephant in the room just around those really traditional beauty standards and the objectification of women athletes.

So I think it's probably worth pointing out while we talk about this, like with the Female Athlete Project, in a way, I feel like we've probably leaned away from the fashion and beauty conversations.

There's definitely parts of it that we've covered, for sure, but as we've all said, you can't ignore this growth anymore in that space.

But I think we've I don't want to say avoided it, but we've leaned away from it because I think we've tried so hard to make it about the athletes and about their achievements and about their sports and move away from this really traditional objectification of women athletes.

How does this fit into this entire discussion about our athletes now being given more power to redefine what beauty standards are.

And to beauty standards contradict to our approach of women's sport is for everyone.

This is the fine line, I think, particularly when it's not just a choice, if it's coming from the fact that it's now a potential revenue stream, that makes the conversation even harder.

I mean, I also think just to jump back in there, when I consider what's happened with the AFLW kit, so that untangling.

You were talking about that in a rese.

We chatted about that on the rat recently.

So for the first ten seasons of the AFLW they had a long term partnership with cotton On and that has expired.

So from twenty twenty six, each of the eighteen clubs will be able to sign their own apparel deals so they can align.

Most likely they'll align with their men's program, you would think from a club perspective, but we think it'll probably shift in a positive way to giving fans more access to a more diverse range of merchandise and things.

And ideally we're going to also see more athlete input into the shape and size and fitting of their uniforms.

Yeah, that's to watch this space for me, because again, moving from it being an administrative thing that the club or the governing body just says or will sort the uniforms out, saying this is a serious revenue.

I tie that back in because that's another pressure and driver, not just because some athletes and the culture between sport and fashion and beauty is emerging.

It's saying he's a whole funding mechanism.

But what I think is shifting is again unevenly distributed.

But this idea I think where women's sport is starting to drag beauty standards towards it.

That's one positive part that I think is going on.

So beauty fashion brands are having to adjust to that.

So women athletes, not universally but in some pockets no longer trying to squeeze themselves into old beauty standards.

So athletes then becoming beauty authorities, not exceptions.

You know, it's like the shift in the power dynamic of saying, sure, I'll embrace this part of my self, but on my terms.

And there's a few, yeah, really interesting examples of that.

The obvious one is who's doing the queen obviously, Alonam.

You know she she represents everything to me that a strong rugby player should be, and she does it in in my mind, a beautiful way.

And I think that that's something that you know, I'm forever thankful for her to her, for you've got an amazing crete.

You don't have to sacrifice your femininity to play any sport, So she hasn't.

She She's still who she is.

She's not she's you know very unforgivingly who she is, and she's just defining what strong and beautiful can look like for her and I think that's the for me, that's the important thing.

It's it still needs to make.

You still need to be comfortable in it yourself.

Whatever your beauty standard is, that has to be right for you.

What you were touching on, Rae and on this Alona mar topic, the Barbie goals that were made of the players at the Alona was one of them, mostly and I am discussing this based on the comments action on teeth at that I scroll through to see if I need to block anyone, but most mostly positively receive the Barbie dolls.

But people still saying something like the shoulders are still not overly broad and Alona's legs, yes, they look strong, stronger than what a traditional Barbie would look like, but there's still room for improvement in something like a Barbie doll that still looks pretty skinny for someone like a loner.

Yeah, it's never going to be perfect when you're when when you're creating a Barbie, because we all know what the connotations for Barbie is.

That's what I mean, though, Like when is a Barbie ever going to be like a like, where's the plus sized Barbie?

Not saying alone Ama is a plus sized woman, but where is a plus size do you know what I mean?

I hear what he's saying, and so it's, you know, the Barbie example is always going to be fraught.

There's there's always going to be issues there.

But I think, you know, going back to that, that piece in regard to how she represents beauty, I think is really important because it's on her own terms, in her own way.

Yeah, and I think part of that is the shift I mean a couple of things.

For me, she wasn't necessarily used to soften the look of rugby.

That was my experience playing sport when you'd see people and they'd be used to soften the look of a particular sport.

But Serena Williams, I think Shakari Richardson and the nails and lashes as hair and hair, I think have been pushing that conversation for a long time.

And I think the inside is it's about them declaring in an authority, not necessarily asking permission.

But that came with a lot of criticism, huge blowback lash.

Yeah.

The other example I wanted to touch on was Mary Fowler.

I've really enjoyed following her and I guess how she's grown publicly post World Cup.

She's quite quirky.

I think, as you and I have probably talked about this, she's quite quirky and a little bit different with the content she puts out, which I really respect, you know, like, I think she does things quite differently.

But so she made her Paris Fashion Week runway debut with Laurel I.

Think in Paris I definitely say fashion Oh sorry.

Yeah that I definitely say like that, I reckon you know, like and it was it was a huge moment.

I saw it across a whole range of different platforms and channels and it just those moments just seem to carry a lot of power when it's an athlete of her profile.

Yeah, I think that the brands are chasing them as well.

So I was.

Looking online and saw the cover of Vogue India and it was the women's cricketers.

Oh I love that.

Yeah, And it was a handful of them and a broad brush of from the team and for me, again, just those cultural indicators of the beauty brands, if you like, coming to the athlete and the athletes not necessarily making radical changes in response to that.

I think it's silly of us if we don't actually mention Tea and a brand like together.

There's a number of different brands where it might be athletes coming together to create platforms that are about advocacy.

But merchandise is a huge part of that.

Like the Everyone Watches Women's Sports, Tea has done what stupid amounts seven million US and revenue which the company is then reinvested for us.

We've done a number of different merchandise launchers that help us to continue to run this business, to continue to put content.

Our merchandise is a huge part of what we do.

I'd say mostly from an advocacy point of view.

I think there's a lot of our messaging on our T shirts is for people to wear to make a statement.

We like to make a broad range of merchan It's about people being able to make a statement and then people more subtly being able to represent it.

But I think it's coming back to that advocacy piece, but also the commercialization piece for us to work out different revenue streams to continue doing what we're doing for women's sport.

Yeah, I agree, I think it's becoming a really significant platform for much more than just being fashion itself.

The advocacy piece is really powerful.

I mean, we kind of have started to wear our values.

I think of the be kind tease.

I have a running this is not apparel plug because there's only three sizes extra extra small available, But I have a running suite of apparel that I wear that says that the Bloodites were right.

And that's a whole part.

Of our university lecturers actually who had one of those as well?

Oh how boring.

Sorry, I mean I take it back.

They are cool for wearing that.

They might have some IP claims on that, but the whole premise of you wearing your advocacy on as merch.

I think what was really interesting too is that watching, you know, athletes become beauty authorities and this beauty and fashion moving and chasing athletes.

Is the range of micro industries that this and jobs that sit around the edges of sport that it's created, so like sports stylists is now a career and all of these content producers and makeup artists that are now inside the sports industry.

Yeah, it was interesting.

I had the chance to chat to one of the WNBA stylists who works with a lot of the big teams and athletes, and this real shift where we're seeing these pregame fits and some athletes are just like another level with what they're wearing, but there's a lot of people behind the scenes in the beauty space getting them ready with the apparel that they're wearing.

They might be pulling together different outfits for them to wear for these pregame fits.

I think it's really cool to see this industry, as you said, that's building in conjunction with the growth of women's sport.

I guess my question is are the athletes getting a return from the investment by these beauty companies.

Are they actually investing in sport and the female athlete or are they potentially just investing in an individual which isn't necessarily a terrible thing.

Do we think that sport?

Is it a symbolic kind of relationship here?

What kind of leaks back to our last episode around big sport?

And will the money goes and even if it does go to some athletes, does it go to just a few?

That was my exact thoughts to that question.

Is I think the higher profile players that are earning bigger money that have bigger commercial deals on the side are the ones who get access to your pritas and whatever they're wearing pre game.

They've already got the profile and it continues to grow, so I think in a sense it's a really positive thing for them.

But I do have real issues a lot of the time in these sporting teams where it is often the top two or three athletes whose profiles continue to grow and the rest of the athletes just get a little bit left behind.

I think a lot of the time.

That's not separate though, from what's happening in society, just from a wealth in and quality perspective and a growing number of people at the top, so sport doesn't sit outside of that.

So I think it's a really fair.

Question, and that's why we're always asking these questions and provocations around well, what do we choose to do now?

If that is the case.

I think what's interesting there though, too is watching athletes and fans starting to have more of a say around this stuff, so being able to co design products.

I mean, we know that fans have started and athletes, but fans in particular are forcing brands to listen to them that perfect example of the Mackenzie, Arnold and Mary's the goalkeeper kit.

So it wasn't available, is that right?

Yeah, they didn't make them.

They just didn't bother even producing the goalkeeper shirts for the work.

Up, and then when they did, they sold out so quickly, was a huge demand that.

Made a ridiculously small run and all and then were shocked.

Then it became a bit of a cult icon.

One of those jerseys I think was like that was its own form of protest in buying one of those jerseys.

But I think that the adjacent pushback too, is around again.

Athletes, fans and designers pushing back around that idea of shrinket and pink it.

Which just infuriates me, just makes me feel ill.

True, are we discussing this the other day with Halo some refresh in my mind was an amazing Halo platform that lasted six days.

Yes, exactly, And that's probably a great example to be honest with fans forcing brands to listen.

Halo should have had input from more women before they went live with this shrinkt and pinket version of TikTok and trying to prettify that's definitely not a word o'men sport, and they didn't and people there was significant backlash and the platform then got removed a few days later.

I know it's not the uniform fashion conversation, but I think as a whole, there's a real parallel there.

I didn't even it was so quick, I didn't even get a chance to see the platform, which devastated about.

But yeah, I think this shift too.

Of it's the same sentiment though, of advocacy and pushback and wanting more say and those organizations needing to listen, but also watching athletes move from what I would call move from the mannequin to the makers and the designers.

Cocoa GoF I follow a lot of her because I think she's doing so many different interesting things.

But she co designs what she plays in, so she's not just handed a kit, which she used to just be handed at kit.

She co creates with new balance and a whole bunch of I think there was like luxury designers, so her match kit is at times treated like a fashion drop.

And it is too.

It seeking a new balance and mad.

Yeah, cool, just putting that out there.

She's just cool, like even Sabrini, n Escue with her shoes as well.

There was a crazy I don't know what the number was of the number of NBA players wearing her Supporters Boy Sports wearing.

The second second most popular shoe in the NBA.

I knew you'd have some of my nieces and nephew's friends that play don't know Sabrina Escue, but they know her shoes.

That's that's an interesting question.

Is it's cool.

I kind of think it's cool.

I can't decide how I feel, but I think.

I like it.

But this is the shift of them being a maker, a designer, and an icon.

Shyla hill I Read had launched her signature shoe that was the first for female for women's basketball in this country.

In the podcast just the other day, go check it out Shameless Pug for the.

She's got a really.

Great story athletes and fans being fashion icons.

Brianna Stewart has her own I love Stu York Fashion label.

Love that so good.

It's great.

I have to pay tribute to I think one of the OG's in this country around fashion and sport with Lizzie Cambage.

Do we have to we do her?

She's yes, the fashion bit She's problematic, but.

Her fashion style is phenomenal.

Whatever she's wearing two years later, it's cool.

She was way ahead of the game in anyone in this country before that's the case, so total fashion icon.

I think the other interesting thing is watching two.

What's happening around the sustainability conversation?

Fast fashion is a big issue.

Oh yeah, we can.

We talk about Unwanted FC.

So I first came across Unwanted FC.

They reached out about the collab that they did with Ellie Carpenter.

So they reworked the Dutch national team kits, which is Ellie Carpenter's who Ellie Carpenter's wife now wife I'm married, plays for and they like stitch together this incredible jersey in a way like it was the jersey remade in a really cool way for Ellie to wear to go and watch her wife's games, which I thought was really really cool.

It was, It was incredible and it is again it's that piece and it's probably a tenuous link, but it comes back to that trust piece, and I think female athletes want to be sharing stories and brands that they believe in, and that's where the trust generates from.

And holding space for then a brand that is focused on upcycling, you know the ideas of circular design, so it not necessarily being about new stuff all of the time.

A friend said to me after listening to the podcast, I feel like women's sport has to hold such a big space for social economic like why does women's sport have to be the ones doing the right things all the time?

Which I think is a really interesting question in the context of that collab.

For me is then saying there's some really cool stuff for happening in the circular space, but women's athlete, athletes and fans leading these kind of social conversations.

And the other one is athletes launching their own beauty and skincare brands as well.

There's a number of them.

I mate Alona again, Nami Osaka, She's active.

Active in individual I think that for me, when I think of Naomasaka, I think of definitely doing her own thing, and I love that from her.

She's very much not a cookie cutter athlete in a lot of different ways, and that carries through into what she's doing in this space.

I like that it's kind of changing the sector and the product in a way.

So when it comes from athletes designing and being involved in shaping beauty products.

It focuses more on things like performance beauty, which is a whole new category that's emerging.

I was doing some side research totally unnecessary, but TikTok trends around long lasting beauty the searchers went up six percent and things like waterproof lip waterproof lip preparation went up twenty four percent in the first half of twenty twenty four.

So then athletes being involved starting to shape these subcategories and different ways of using beauty products.

Are we saying the wardproof lip prep is because of people wanting to exercise sweat cool?

Can you wear these beauty products while you're actually essentially playing sport or exercising or being That's it.

That's a cool start.

I like that.

I like that a lot.

So I think this shift from athletes owning their own beauty in skincare brands is really interesting.

So another economic engine for athletes, but also watching how beauty and fashion is emerging as a new form of work for athletes.

So everybody, I'm sure everyone will know.

It's hard to avoid this now that tunnel fits are becoming a new fashion destination.

So in the WNBA, the NWSL.

What you wear down the tunnel is becoming an event in and of itself, to the point where that part of the game, the pregame wasn't in part of the game, is now being analyzed in fashion circles, in fashion media.

So it's not highlight reels of the sport, it's the tunnel fit conversation.

So this is about yeah, a total It's coming from the fashion and the beauty and they guess saying, this is a section of sport that we're interested in, and it gets debated openly and widely in the fashion space.

Just being monetized.

Yeah, the actual arrival is being monetized.

Kansas City Currents Fit Walk is actually sponsored by I'm going to say this wrong because I know nothing about fashion Newly.

Yeah, a rental a clothing rental service.

Amazing.

Yeah, that is amazing.

All I think is not amazing.

I just want to turn up to sport and not worry about what I'm wearing on what people are saying about what I'm wearing.

That stresses me out.

And there's athletes who absolutely lean in and nail it, But I just think about the athletes who don't want to borrow it, and all they want to do is rock up and perform and play their sport and not be judged for their outfit that they're wearing to the game.

So you might miss out on a new form of monetization where athletes are monetizing their posts and pre beauty routines.

Get Ready with Me there was an acronym.

I had to.

Google what that was.

Clearly, I'm not get Ready with me person, but that's starting to show up inside athlete sponsorship contracts and deliverables.

If someone is doing the prep saying here's your outfit.

This would look good on you.

As long as it's not something really weird and ugly, I will take that.

I think it's taking the mental load from a lot of these athletes.

I just don't think that's a mental load that you want to be having when you're performing.

I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of athletes like an Angel who's rocking up and she loves I can't comment.

I shouldn't say this because I can't comment on her behalf.

But you know athletes who might love the process of getting ready and being in front of the camera and doing all those things pregame, but I just think it's a big mental load, is what I find for the female athletes who ideally should just be earning more in their playing contracts and not having to do it.

So therein lies the point, you know.

It's again is beauty and fashion another example of the way that a female athlete has to diversify their offering because what they perform or produce on a picture on a court isn't enough.

Whereas that's always been enough for a male athlete, it's not enough for female athletes, so they have to find other areas that they can monetize their self.

I think, yes, I agree.

It's a tricky line, isn't it, Because we're saying, okay, there's some patterns here that show a shift in dynamics beauty and fashion coming to women athletes, them starting to reshape the standards to a degree, but it's still it's still elevates certain people, and that's problematic.

I think we're I think we're walking some tricky lines.

So women athletes having to simultaneously reject objectification and build beauty brands, also demanding a performance focus while also centralizing fashion like, that's a lot to hold.

It's a lot of complexity to hold it is.

And I think you know, we've spoke about this briefly before recording, but I think when we look at the Alone mar example, who's probably most friend of mine.

For people at the moment, women's sport I think is a safe space for everyone, no matter your body shape and size and what you look like.

Do beauty brands objectify that to a certain extent where people that don't necessarily feel comfortable in that space no longer feel welcomed in women's sport?

And I think that's the big question for me.

Yeah, is it about opening more commercial opportunities, but what are the implications for players?

What happens to the players who don't want to play that aesthetic kind of beauty game.

It's also expensive, yes, so there's a class element to that and who that privileges, Who actually gets access to those economic opportunities and who doesn't.

You know, if you're not that interested in that space like you're mentioning, does that mean you lose chances of economic opportunity?

Probably given the investment in the space and how big it is and the dollars that are going into it.

I think one of the core tensions though, is back to this question of are we watching women athletes and fans claim more power here in an industry that has ignored and objectified them for decades, or do we think this is just a slicker form of commercial capture commercialization?

Is this just a brilliant tactic from big brands.

Discuss I'm going to lean more towards the claiming of power because I think there's a huge amount of examples that we've discussed here.

But granted, we've also talked about the really high profile athletes that probably have the leverage and the money to be able to do it.

So I do think female athletes are rewriting this narrative and challenging these really outdated beauty standards and beauty norms, and I would like to think yes, these like these fashion and beauty brands absolutely are thinking about the bottom line.

But I also I love the fact that they are investing in women's sport, you know, and they're signing big deals in the women's sports space, which to me is a positive thing.

And I think as long as it's done in the right way, We're not talking about gambling and mining and things.

We're talking about things that can bring someone confidence in their body and the way they look when they're leaving the house and going out to a game and doing all those things.

Yeah, I agree, I agree, And I think you said the word can.

I think as long as it's really strongly communicated to the youth, and let's be honest, that's probably the part of the women's sport fan that we should be most concerned about is the young girls that are looking at these idols of theirs and seeing what they're doing and following in their footsteps.

We need to make sure that they still have a choice and they still understand that they if they don't feel comfortable in that beauty and fashion space to that extent, then that's fine.

Like it's as long as there's a choice, I think.

Yeah, again, more dollars in women's sport.

So how about it.

I'm here for it.

I've got The annoying side thought is just always the question the bad dinner.

I guess no one really asked for, but this sense that the question around who's the labor that underwrites a lot of these things around fashion.

So for me, it's usually very feminized supply chains and we know that they experience terrible working conditions so there is some exciting stuff that's emerging around not only just the past fashion thing, but around ethical supply chains that we're starting to see shaped.

But how we're conscious of that when we make these decisions as women's sport entities and athletes, even if you're being sponsored by some of these organizations.

One last question for you both.

Do you think we could see a future where women's sports events and games are designed for ideal shoppers, not really athletes or the sport itself.

Yes, I do.

I think that, and we say that we keep using these WNBA examples, But I just think about the parachutes coming from the sky and there was who was the team who did like the really cool food and drinks package which was awesome for getting people to the game.

Do you remember that one?

It was like a big there was a big stir around the food and drinks packages they were doing to get people caught sight of these WNBA games please Google.

I don't know.

I just think there's a real shift to the consumer and what the consumer wants, and so I think if we continue going down that path, I think it makes sense for a business to be doing so.

And it might bring other people to the sport.

So people arriving to sport from fashion from beauty.

What if they're arriving to beauty because of sport and they're a young person adult.

I don't care how you arrived to beauty, but a young person.

There's this huge discussion about how young these kids are that are going in and asking, like they see YouTube tutorials that are going in They're asking for products from the age of like eight years old in Sephora and in Mecca.

I mean, maybe sport can't be that dangerous if these kids have such easy access to things like YouTube tutorials anyway, but could that be the first place that they are exposed to beauty?

Yeah, we're and I don't I yeah, they could be.

And that for me is like I said, the concerning part.

I just really think that you're you're Asia Wilson's and you're more beauty fashion forward.

Athletes are wonderful, but I still think that we need to make sure that the light is shone on the anti the anti it's the wrong word, but you know, the athlete that isn't necessarily I mean, we look at even someone like Caitlin Clark.

You know, she's huge, huge name definitely going down the fashion a little bit.

Doesn't look overly comfortable for her.

She's her.

I just yeah, I feel her physio would be nervous.

Yes, yeah, yeah, totally.

You know, for us we can see that.

For her, it's an add on, but it's not who she is.

And I think that's really important that that children can understand.

I like that kid's distinction.

Kids can understand that's not who they are, it's it's a choice for them.

There's a quick story I just wanted to wrap with.

Actually, I was at a school event the other day and there was a young girl, she was in year seven.

She came up.

I often asked like, what's bought?

Do you play?

What do you do?

And she was a shot putter, and she like was awesome mat at She recently went to regionals and did really well.

And I was like, do you want to do it as a career, Like, would you want to try go to the Olympics.

She was like, I'm not really sure.

I was like, there's actually a really cool Olympic shotputter from the US.

Raven Saunders is their name, and Raven like does the cool like mask and glasses and like hair and makeup and all that kind of stuff, and I started talking about that, and this girl's face just like glazed over, and I was like, she might have absolutely no desire to engage with someone who does their hair and makeup to do shop, but she almost looked a little bit like I don't want to be doing that.

And it kind of was a moment for me of like why did I tell her?

Like I think all credits to ravens On is Raven's epic, But I kind of had this moment of like, sport will always just be sport for some people to.

Drop the mic exactly right, I'll always be sport.

But how do we like everything that we've spoken about in this series?

The whole point is we're inside the change the future hasn't happened.

How do we be much more intentional in all of these everyday decisions that we make as fans, as athletes, as administrators.

What are the guardrails that we put in place?

You know, what do we want to defend taking forward?

What's really important for us?

And then when you understand what's changing around you and how you see the implications play out already, I think you can widen those choices and make more informed decisions, so not just casually saying yes and we sleep walk into a future down the track we're having to untangled.

Yeah, thank you Bez, Thank you Ree so much for your time and preparation.

We'll see you guys on the next episode of the next Thanks so much for listening.

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