Welcome to episode 410 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast recorded live on 09/08/2025.

This is a show about Microsoft '3 60 '5 and Azure from the perspective of IT pros and end users, where we discuss the topic or recent news and how it relates to you.

In this episode, I somehow lose complete control as I become the guest of our podcast and Joy and Jay become the hosts.

The three of us discuss the changing role of IT within Microsoft March and how IT should be thinking about change management as the shift from on premises to cloud continues across many organizations.

Welcome to the MSIT Pro podcast with Jay Leesk and Joy Apple and our special guest.

Ben Stutching.

Ben, thank you so much.

If people wanna see what The behind the scenes.

Behind the scenes of this disaster, they can.

Yeah.

But, anyways, Jay, you and I did a session this week on zero trust.

Right.

So for those of you wondering where why we're in Branson, we're at the North American Cloud and Collaboration Summit, formerly known as the North American Collaboration Summit, which I guess Mark said something about this being its sixteenth year Yes.

Which is wild.

It is.

When it launched, it was SharePoint Alooza.

Oh, that's right.

I remember that.

I Yeah.

SharePoint Alooza.

New?

No.

It was I do remember the m three six five days.

Wow.

So it was a SharePoint collaboration What?

It's 2025.

SharePoint well, it was b pause then, not Office March.

Right.

Was what?

Probably, like, twelve or thirteen years ago?

Yeah.

So it was three.

This was yeah.

SharePoint, Luca was like March.

Other people's servers.

Well, there were clouds.

They just didn't have anything to do with it now.

Was a cloud.

They were cumulus, not in this.

I mean, you never know.

Yeah.

So we're in Branson.

We did We did as you asked me, and allowed me to actually answer the question.

Yes.

Joanne and I both did a session today.

Yeah.

I've got I've got another session tomorrow.

What's your session today?

Today was people ask me this.

I never remember the titles to my own sessions.

What was it about?

What was it about?

It was about seven tips to being, like, a Microsoft three sixty five admin.

If you're an admin, if you're managing Microsoft three sixty five, what are seven things you should be thinking about paying attention to?

Just seven.

Just seven.

12.

But they were like did you come up with seven?

How did I come up with seven?

As opposed to five or 12.

Copilot.

You said Copilot.

What number should I use?

And it says Because I can't cover 12.

I can talk fast, but I can't cover 12 in an hour.

That's five minutes of topic if you take out the introduction to any questions.

That's exactly five minutes of topic.

And people likes I've heard people like the number seven.

Yep.

If you end prices with seven, people are more likely to buy at I heard the nine.

Nine's a four Seven tips.

It is.

Do you allow curse words on your program?

Not usually.

We might have to make an exception for Jay.

This one episode, you might rate it r.

For Jay.

Yes.

What was your session about today?

Yeah.

Co pilot readiness for the real world.

I would know that if I stayed in the session.

I was only there for three days.

I know.

He bailed.

Wow.

My wife called.

He did.

Priorities.

Right?

And she did tell me I should go listen, and then I pointed out that your room was full.

It's not like you didn't have an office.

Heard that.

You had, like, standing room only.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Jo had 40 people in her room.

Wow.

Not including her husband and I.

Her husband, who I think we've broken, by the way.

I looked at her earlier.

You just said her husband doesn't count?

In the 40 in the 40 people.

Okay.

I mean, he counts.

He counts.

In fact, he's the one who told me it was 40, so he counted four counted.

He's a counter.

Yes.

Yeah.

But it was a ridiculous an accountant.

That's a different thing.

That is a different thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They count the business.

That's right.

They people.

They are being counters.

Okay.

I don't know if they count, but they are being Are we is this really your podcast?

Is that satisfied with me?

Sack on topic.

I don't know.

People may listen to this and be like, Jay and Joy are way better than Scott.

Or they may be like, did they make Ben take drugs before this record?

Or please get the Scott back.

Don't go to brands whenever he can with Jay and Joy.

Okay.

So anyways, we talked about zero trust.

And then afterwards, we were like, we should do a podcast.

Yes.

Joy wasn't there at the time.

But one of the things it comes out from administration.

I don't know how we got on the topic.

It was maybe just topics we could talk about was and it's a topic I've been dealing with a client, is change management Yeah.

And how that changes with Microsoft March.

Yeah.

And then Exactly.

You were like, oh, we need to get Joy too because because Joy and I present on this.

So since we I told you I speak about change management a lot, and you asked, what is that?

And I said, well, actually, what you specifically said was, I the challenge that you're seeing with your customers is, like, how do they handle the pace of change in the platform The change and change management.

When it right changes.

Right.

And because in the cloud, right, you don't control when things release.

We used to we had companies that would be like, I'm skipping SharePoint 02/2003, and I'll wait till 2007 comes out, or I'm skipping 02/2010.

No one said that.

I'm skipping 02/2013.

Yes.

Everyone said that.

And I'm waiting for '16 to come out.

Yes.

And there was you had the choice, and you don't anymore.

And so the question you asked was how do you help customers talk through the fact that they don't have that control link?

And that's when I realized, I'm like, look, I can talk about change management.

But Joy and I actually have a session that we present on, and we had a workshop on a couple years back Mhmm.

About how it's almost an IT as a service model.

Mhmm.

I know ITaaS is like an officially branded thing.

And whether or not that's exactly what I'm saying, it's this idea that you can't just deploy SharePoint and then deploy the next version of this and then deploy.

Like, you have to partner with the business.

You have to be part of the business.

You think about how organizations run now, HR departments have an HR business partner, and they don't just roll out the insurance program every year and walk away.

They actually have someone you work with throughout the year that understands your part of the business.

And that's really that's how you get around this.

Business.

And that's really that's how you get around this because the one man IT shops, which I get that they exist and I feel terrible for the person who is the m three sixty five person, but, like, they can't keep up.

Right.

To be Yeah.

Please.

To be fair, even those orgs that have a very robust IT team is still a struggle to keep up, and it's very hard, typically, not always, to have the personas on that IT team that's, yes.

Let me go partner with the business.

Yeah.

Yes.

Let me be the agent that's going forward to help implement this change to prepare them to communicate.

Hopefully, I mean, if you're really blessed, you've got a training arm somewhere Right.

That's gonna help partner between IT and the business to roll out training?

Are we socializing on newsletters, on the Internet?

What's going on?

We as IT pros are not always the people to do those things Right.

Regardless of the size of our team.

So I think that's something too.

Change management has got to have partners in various areas of the business.

IT can say, oh, this is the channel we're gonna be on with Microsoft.

Right?

Is it No.

Is the pipeline open or not?

And we can do things like that.

But when is it time to do a pilot of, I don't know, loop workspaces?

Or I'm gonna say it.

I'm gonna say it.

What?

Copilot.

Shut up.

There is cursing.

We need There is drugs.

There is alcohol on your own.

Things.

This whole punch is just going down there.

This is in three six five unhinged right now.

But who's gonna go and say, hey.

Finance.

Yeah.

When's a good time?

Because like you were saying, how are they dealing with the rate of change, the pace of change?

And there's some departments that have certain seasons, certain times when it's like, it can't be now.

We gotta do closeout for the year end.

Right.

Yeah.

Can't be now or what have you.

Right.

And some of the things like this is what I've been struggling with.

Maybe not struggling with.

One of the challenges I've seen with one of the companies I'm working with, they're they've been traditionally on prem.

Right?

They're Exchange server.

They have their SharePoint server.

Yep.

They have their active directory identity team, and they're migrating everything to the cloud.

They just finished email.

They're doing Skype.

That was a round of applause.

Yes.

Skype on prem with the Teams.

They're doing personal drives to OneDrive.

Yeah.

Down the road is gonna be department chairs to SharePoint, all of this.

Yeah.

But they're very much network.

IT is well, we're the project team.

We just do the migration, and then we hand it off to the other teams, and they have, like, their I mean, very traditional change management.

We have our cap meetings Yep.

And our forms that we fill out.

And those go in on Tuesday, and we make our changes on Thursday.

But then I'll be on with them and I'm like, that button moved or this option changed or this and this.

They're like, well, so what do we do about our end users where we don't to your point, we can set channels and we can set Right.

Update schedules, but there are things that go in not necessarily on a schedule or it's we're gonna start here.

Yep.

But over the next three months, it'll hit your tenant sometime.

And they actually ask me.

They're like, so how can we control when that hits our tenants?

I'm like Oh, no.

Don't migrate to the cloud.

But I love the fact And then how do you go in and start addressing that?

How do you talk how do you move companies from traditional change management to not can we modernize?

How do you modernize change management?

The appetite for it.

I mean, that's definitely gonna be a cultural shift in thinking and how they approach things.

The fact that they ask the question Yeah.

It's a good start.

That's a really that they're actually thinking about that.

Whoever you are, well done.

Because not every company asks that question.

Say, how can we make sure our users are prepared for this?

Part of it is, Jay, this is kinda like what we do our workshop.

So the one we had, we used to call it how to win friends in the business and solve problems.

Yes.

Part of it is ensuring that there is a good relationship between the business and IT.

Yep.

So that they're comfortable.

Both sides in that relationship are comfortable coming together and say, okay.

Things are about very different.

Yeah.

And we are here for you.

This is how we're gonna this is how we're gonna reach out to you.

This is how we're gonna prepare you as best we can.

But Microsoft controls the clicking of that button.

Yep.

Having and I'm not talking about help desk tickets.

This could be super uncomfortable for them, but we're not talking about, hey.

The button's different.

Put in a ticket.

As soon as someone notices, maybe they have there it is, maybe they have a community, like a Veeva engaged community where someone could see something, say something Yep.

And go, hey.

I just saw this.

Check it out.

Here's a picture, and all kinds of stuff like that.

Yep.

Or ways to help gently Yeah.

Repair.

The primary key, and maybe you're sensing this theme as we're talking about it, is it is no longer just IT's responsibility to own the technology.

It is, first of all, a group responsibility.

Like, IT is in charge of configuring the technology.

They're in charge of making sure they're picking the right technology.

They're in charge of deciding who gets to use the technology.

But most medium to large sized organizations, you have a communications team.

They have spent money deciding and studying and analyzing and executing on the best ways to communicate to people.

IT should own the communication.

IT should own what we need to get.

Communication should own Yeah.

How do we communicate.

Learning should own what mechanism should we have for deploying it.

And I go back to what we said earlier, which is, okay.

You're an IT shop of wonder.

You're a company of 20 people.

Like, these don't all exist, but these are the roles that someone has to take on.

And so what you're trying to decide, well, how many staff do I need for this program?

You need to look at these different roles and say, okay, Who do I have that can analyze the, communications from Microsoft about what changes are coming out to my tenant?

Mhmm.

And what are the tools that exist for that?

And that's a big area.

Like, most of your IT admins of one can't keep up with that stuff.

So Right.

I I you build a PowerApp to look for certain types of changes.

You build notification systems.

You the community is a great way of getting this information out there.

And for people that, like you said, I I noticed this change happen.

And then, yeah, now you've got the community talking to themselves.

I was in on, Sarah Haas' session this morning on SharePoint and intranets in Veeva.

She said her bank uses Veeva, connection Veeva Engage.

Okay.

I just totally did what she did.

I blanked on which one was which.

Her bank uses Veeva Engage, and she said if they push something out to the and they use SharePoint and they use connections.

If they push something out to Veeva connections, they can get it in front of 58,000 sets of eyes in one day.

Like, that's insane.

Are they using Amplify for that?

They're using Amplify for that.

Yep.

So all of these combined things together, like, this suite is relevant.

But, yeah, it's hard to get to a point where, like, you can take the step, but you have to Right.

Ultimately, the question that you asked is, how do we start to manage the incredible rate of change that we're gonna see, and how do we help users understand it?

The answer becomes you use the tools that are available to you and you build a team that actually dedicates time to it because you can't do it otherwise.

Yeah.

And I would say that a cross functional team.

Yeah.

Yes.

And that's one thing I saw, like, to your point about the communication.

This particular client, they did a great job, but they had a communications team.

Okay.

As they were deploying everything, there was a person on the communications team assigned to it.

I don't know.

She sent out, like, 50 or 60 emails Mhmm.

Over the course of it, alerting different users.

Talk about h drive to OneDrive.

Right.

This is the time period you're gonna get migrated.

This is the time you're gonna get migrated.

Helping them prepare.

Expectations matter.

What I don't know like, they have the whole project team.

I think the other important part is once it's done, continuing that.

Yeah.

What?

Right.

She was assigned to join the project.

Yep.

But now it's okay.

This is not We're the stakeholders in each of those business areas.

Keep this going forward.

So that gets to the other part of the conversation we always had in our win friends conversation, which was it's rolling out the cloud is not a one and done thing.

It is I get it.

You're gonna have a product, a project team that is dedicated to, like, high priority execution, and you don't want them to stick with something for five years.

But you have to have a team that is in charge of over five years and beyond Yeah.

Managing expectations and evaluating the new capabilities that are coming out and communicating out those changes.

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Continuing communication after the project.

Ship it and forget it.

You've got to teach it because you give them the tool.

You give them the SharePoint.

You give them the OneDrive.

You give them the Teams.

Yeah.

And, yes, there has to be that support throughout that adoption uptick rate.

How do you use it?

Mhmm.

What are your use cases in your business area as compared to all the other business areas?

Right.

What's the same?

What's different?

Get them going there.

The more people use things, the more questions they will have Yep.

The more ideas they will have, which contrary to some IT people that I have worked with in the past, that's a good thing.

It's a good thing.

That.

Wow.

Right?

When your users ask questions and want things.

Yes.

If you can see the face on this podcast We are recording video.

We'll see if we ever that ever sees the light of day.

Yeah.

It is.

And the other thing about that is if you want them to actually understand the change, you have to make it about them, which means you have to understand what they're trying to achieve, which brings me back to the entire conversation, which is you have to partner with the business.

Yeah.

And I think that's a challenge.

I think if we were gonna talk about one of the biggest mindset shifts Yeah.

For IT in a cloud world and modernizing some of that change management is the need for IT to partner much closer with the business.

And I think this is something you brought up when we were talking about, hey.

Here's stuff we could talk about on the podcast.

Right.

Traditional IT, you were just there.

You stood up servers.

You patched servers.

You didn't have to talk to the business as much.

You were just kind of there, and that's even the traditional IT person.

Right?

They're, like Yeah.

Hide in their little cubby.

They don't wanna talk to people.

They don't wanna interact with people.

They want the lights off.

Right.

I do like all of those things.

By the way.

It's fair.

It is fair because none of that I can disagree with.

And Right.

There are times when I don't wanna talk to people anymore.

But I think it becomes more and more of a need for IT to be able to talk to Yes.

People that aren't IT.

Right.

Because you want it to be successful.

You have you've paid for the licensing.

You've paid for the infrastructure.

You have committed time, efforts, resources for this project.

Yep.

So then we don't support it.

We don't follow it up, and we've let it fail.

We then we go by box because we didn't take time to teach people how to use OneDrive.

Right?

That makes no sense.

It absolutely makes no sense.

So, yeah, 100%.

Doing these things, it's a continuation of the next phase of the project, and it's how it becomes successful.

And I would say too sorry.

I know that you Please.

One of the things we have to remember, we contend in IT to have a little bit of the little g god complex.

We know what the tech does.

We know how to use it.

We know what it's for.

We set it up.

We do all these things.

But that doesn't mean we understand how operations, how contracts, how security, how finance, how human resources need to use it day by day.

Yep.

They're experts in their fields.

We're experts in ours.

That has to come together.

Which I appreciate how Microsoft has pushed the technology to enable the people who are experts about their business to own that part of the business.

Right?

If you think about how Teams governance works, right, they took the SharePoint site admin and really destroyed the concept.

And instead, you have Teams owners.

And who is the team owner?

The person who created the group.

Who is the likely person to have created the group?

The person from the business who needed the group.

They know that thing.

And while I don't necessarily agree completely with they should be the technical admin, the fact that gives them the right to say who should be a member and who should not is important.

Like, I no longer have to call Ben from IT to get someone added to or removed from my SharePoint side.

I can just do it myself.

And if you look at the way the third party tools have done governance, it's putting that in the hands of that business owner.

And so Joy's absolutely right.

Like, the business owner knows the business.

They know how to do their business.

If you want to technologically support them, you bring that vacuum cleaner right into the room while we're oh, they turned it off at the point.

Then you have to really partner with the business to Yeah.

To communicate to them how does this work in their line.

So that's I mean Yeah.

And I think that's a mindset shift for IT too to be able to let go of that.

Yes.

Like, me, especially coming more from the admin side of it, the security side of it, I like to be in control.

I like to know who's getting into the site, who who are we giving access.

And a lot of companies in the past do need access to a file share.

Right.

Yep.

It's not the business that does it.

They open a ticket with IT.

Right.

IT goes and adds them to the appropriate security groups, then they get their GPOs deployed, then they get drives mapped, or they now start seeing the file shares show up.

Yep.

So part of that whole thing is I think there's a couple of conversations.

There's one, how do you help IT let go of that and say, no.

It's okay for somebody else to manage security of this team.

There's obviously training them how to do that.

Sure.

Yes.

I think the other aspect of it that you run into is some companies still have certain security regulatory, all of that.

Absolutely.

How do you make sure you're still auditing some of that Yes.

To make sure that these owners aren't misbehaving Yeah.

In Teams and people are not getting access to stuff they shouldn't as a part of all of this.

Again, it's changed, man.

It's changing production, changing security.

It's still part of that organization.

Think about the difference from managing on prem Azure Active Directory to moving to the cloud with intra, intra Azure, however you call it these days.

Purview, sensitivity labels, DLP, all that stuff.

That's a big shift too just for those people in IT.

So, hopefully, we have good security minded organizations out there that are supporting that training for their security people on the IT team because that's a huge shift.

Yeah.

Huge.

But either of you guys ever been the SharePoint army of one against the business or that admin role.

Right?

I Thankfully, no.

I can remember getting calls, and it would be Bill from business development.

Sorry.

I've been wanting to say that.

Like, it's like the third time I've wanted to say it from State Farm.

Jane.

I almost had a bang from State Farm earlier.

Not wearing a red shirt, but okay.

But it's yeah.

I need access to my site.

Okay.

Who are you, and what's your site?

And under what authority?

Right.

I don't know who you are, but yet at that point in time, this is back in the lost days, I was the one granting access because we hadn't trained it.

We were in a very sensitive area industry at the time, so in the government.

So untrained people couldn't manage their SharePoint sites, and there'd been no training.

Yeah.

And in the okay.

So I'm coming at all of this from a very idealistic perspective.

I totally get that.

Yeah.

But if you work in an industry that's highly regulated, that has highly sensitive information, guess what?

The cost of doing business means spending more money to protect that, which means, hey.

Maybe the native tooling doesn't fit your need, and maybe you need to bring in a third party.

There are plenty of them out there that can help to automate that governance, that can help to automate the auditing beyond what the native capabilities can do.

Yes.

I'm the Microsoft guy in the conversation saying, look at a third party tool because they exist for a reason.

That's true.

There's third party tools that do governance, Joy.

There absolutely are.

There I mean, I've heard of this little one called Orchestry that is actually pretty amazing, but we can talk about that.

I'll let you put a little plug in for your I appreciate it.

Well, it's something and I think we all know this.

And so even at Orchestrey, we do webinars.

We try to do them useful for everybody.

Mhmm.

You could absolutely invest in training your people, digging into Power Platform, Power Automate, PowerShell.

Figure out what you can do with the tools you already are paying for and the human resources you already have at your organization.

Decide, is that where you wanna invest, or do you need those people to be doing something else?

And it makes more sense to invest the dollars in that third party product?

Yep.

I think we know even if we've never internalized it, because I used to be very anti third party tool.

If certain areas of governance are not automated, it's just a wish list.

Yeah.

If you If all areas of governance aren't automated in some trying to be generous.

I'm trying to be like, because I'll be the Microsoft guy and say it.

Who has tried to enforce a naming convention policy without any kind of automation?

It works for a day?

Yep.

Yep.

There there has to be, oh, yeah.

Sure.

We don't need policies.

Just when we stop using our site, we'll go ahead and archive it.

Oh, yeah.

That's what happens.

Sure you will as IT writes another check to Microsoft for more storage.

That was rude.

I know.

It was unnecessary.

So so, yeah, it's there it's complicated.

Like, that's the thing.

It is it is not when we used to say SharePoint was complicated, like a SharePoint stand up or a SharePoint migration is complicated, like, sure.

But it ends, and you're done, and you move on to the next thing.

And that's not a It's not realistic.

I have a new phrase, a new saying for that now.

Is it Instead send Microsoft more money again?

Not yet.

Okay.

We'll get there.

No.

It's send consultants more money.

Yeah.

Do it their time.

Oh, god.

But it's like that it's much like an onion.

It's layered Mhmm.

And sometimes makes you cry.

Genius.

Where's the lie?

Yeah.

No.

Tell me where's the lie.

Valid.

That that could be like the podcast title.

It could make it sometimes it makes you cry.

Sometimes it makes you cry.

Sometimes it makes you cry.

Like, ten minutes of will make people cry.

So Well, it might.

It may be some creative editing.

I don't know.

But, no, it's it is complicated, but I was in Atlanta at TechCon three six five a couple of weeks ago, and I did the solo version of mine and Jay's session of winning friends in the business.

And there's a phrase, I say we probably said it too when we were doing it as a workshop over and over again.

The way you implement this kind of change, the way you build or perhaps rebuild that business IT relationship, the way you implement continuous improvement, it's just like how you eat an elephant.

It's one bite at a time.

Have you ever heard that phrase?

I'm just saying.

Like One bite at a time.

Who ate an elephant?

Because someone must've taken up with that phrase.

Right?

One bite at right?

And that's you've had these guys.

Why am I here?

Why did I sign up for this?

You were terrible.

Yes.

But, is it what are your priorities?

And your priorities might be be different than the business down the road.

Right?

But if you can at least say, these are our top, I don't know, you you did seven topics in your thing.

What are your top seven things that you know you need to do to be successful?

How are we gonna approach those things?

And break them down into stretch, simple, steps.

Steps consumable.

Bite at a time steps and start knocking those down.

I was description that you're gonna say the seven layers of an onion and you're gonna run it with the there.

Layer of onion.

Seven layers dip.

Oh, boy.

Seven's coming up a lot here.

Okay.

Well, listen.

I only have five.

So we have the set we've talked about seven a lot, but I have five things that I think cover the majority of the topics.

We talked about three of them in-depth.

We talked about, let's say group ownership.

And by group ownership, I'm talking about, like, change management is not just IT.

It's not just legal.

It's not just communications and training.

It's all of them working together.

And then we talked about, that you're partnering with the business, which leads to the fact that this is an ongoing engagement.

So those are, like, the three big buckets that we've talked about so far.

The other two things that we haven't really talked about so far are the fact that you you have to say yes.

That is a Richard Harbridge said it during our one of our work at workshops in, Dallas.

And he pointed out, like, if you can't say no all the time, you have to lead yes.

Now can we implement the massive change they just asked me to implement?

Like, a VIT person in me wants to be like, no.

We can't do that.

But the answer is, ultimately, yeah, we can do that.

Here's the bill.

Like, here's the Yes.

Twelve month timeline it's gonna take.

Right?

So it's a yes and so you have to lead with yes if you want business to actually pay attention when you communicate.

Yeah.

And I think that's a huge thing that we miss.

I remember in that workshop, the reason Richard even spoke up was the there was the, the help desk of one, and they're like, I keep having to say no to people, and so they just go buy their own software.

I was just gonna say that.

Like, that no, as soon as you say that, they're like, well, I need to.

If you're not gonna They have to do their job.

Right.

I'm gonna go buy something else.

I might go use a third party.

Yep.

We end up with Yep.

Shadow IT because 100%.

We said no instead of saying, yeah.

We can do that.

Let's sit down with the business.

Let's figure it out.

Let's figure out how to roll this out, how to implement this, how to do it Yeah.

Yeah.

Within the guidelines and the boundaries of our business, and it leads to a more secure, better functioning.

And well, in her example, they were wanting to put, like, drastically customize classic SharePoint sites.

Yeah.

She's like, nope.

Whereas, yeah, you can do that.

This is how much it costs, and this is the expertise that needs to be on hand.

And this is the process for when Microsoft changes something and it breaks.

And and so, yeah, we could.

If you're willing to take this risk and pay us this much money, what's your cost center's charge code?

Yeah.

And, eventually, you lead the business to understand in making their own decision of Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe that's not the best idea.

Like, maybe I don't need the submit button to be paid, which I understand now is a seven month process and will break the next time SharePoint changes anything.

Yep.

So that is a big thing is the yes and because that that establishes trust and empathy, which is important if you're dealing with the conversation we're dealing with.

It's a relationship.

The other part of that and what works towards the saying yes is you have to have a feedback.

So Joy actually talked about the communities.

Like, communities are a great way to build feedback.

But simply having a ticketing system ticketing systems are what you need directional.

I know that you can go back to the ticket and you can put a comment in, and then they get that comment back, but that's not a conversation.

Right.

That's simply yeah.

I read that, and it's stupid.

That's not helpful.

And sometimes, like, the question I have, I don't think it needs a ticket.

I just wanna ask a question.

Yes.

Or I want someone to guide me on something.

And help desks are not big scary things, but, like, they have a connotation to them.

They're very transactional.

Yeah.

They're not a contact feel like the help desk very much has a process.

Like, this is we have to follow these steps.

Yep.

It's not a free flowing Right.

Forum for discussing a question.

Who is trained?

Forum for you broke it.

You had four f's in a row.

Free flowing Forum.

From four Feedback.

Joy came up with a much better Joy was asking for Alice.

I'm staying on target.

Staying on target.

Someone has to.

That's why we put her in the middle to keep us going.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

But pop quiz.

Has the help desk been trained on the technology they're supporting?

Probably I mean, they have materials that tell them how to do things.

Learn.microsoft.com?

No.

Someone sent them the link to the learn article.

Right?

I mean, it's not Yes.

So if I need to ask a theoretical question about the best way to do something, it's not fair to put that help desk tech in that position.

Yep.

They're not equipped for it.

And then everybody else in the back of ITs are going, not it.

Yep.

Yeah.

So got it.

It's So that feedback loop, it needs to be multimodal.

Right?

Mhmm.

Obviously, we're not telling you to get rid of your help desk technical system.

But adding a community if you can, whether that's in Teams or in Viva Engage or some other mechanism, just giving people the ability to share with each other and ask questions is huge.

Another thing you can do is, especially in today's day and age, create a help desk bot.

What?

An agent source.

Use the technology.

Right?

Like, it's so easy to create an agent right now and give it a knowledge source.

And then if you do it in something like Copilot Studio, you can actually add a trigger so that or an action is the technical term.

So that when someone says this isn't answering my question, please open a ticket, it can actually open the ticket for you.

So using the technology that is available to you to not just increase your capability, but decrease the amount of stuff you're dealing with that you shouldn't with becomes part of that feedback mechanism.

Like, go to the bot, ask your questions, say thanks.

That was helpful.

Hey.

You should note that an employee said that was helpful.

You should have something in the back end tracking that interaction.

And so all of that, I think, becomes part of, of heightened people.

Oh, yeah.

I agree.

100%.

Yeah.

Alright.

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