0:00 Small companies have limited amount of resources. You want to be able to be profitable and 0:05 sustainably profitable. You would have to invest a certain kind of amount for it to actually make 0:10 sense. The type of people you want to re-invent things are different from the people that you 0:15 want to operate in the company. So let's get into your history. How far back do you want to go? Where 0:19 do you want to start with that? Right. So I meet Ori El Raviv, the CEO of Media Feed, a 0:24 multicultural turnaround executive CEO with a sharp intuition and market perception with 0:29 expertise in finance, operations, sales and business turnarounds, he excels in creating 0:35 sustainable growth and focuses on impactful objectives to lead companies towards success. A 0:41 lot of entrepreneurs that are like, it needs to be my way or the highway. They hate structure, they 0:46 hate preexisting anything, and they just want to create everything from scratch. I'm the type of 0:50 entrepreneur that just prefer to work out of existing things. I like finding the things that 0:55 need some adjustments. It's important to know that not everyone can be salvaged. You're you going to 0:60 a place, and some people that work there do not fit your management and culture aside, what are 1:04 the keys, do you think, to get everybody on board? That's a good question. And I think that if you're 1:10 like most of our listeners, you love the idea of running the show, but you're constantly second 1:15 guessing yourself if you're ready or the person for the job. Are you missing a key skill? Are you 1:19 aware of the things you need to know, like reading a financial statement or financing the operations 1:24 of a business? We are here to solve that for you. Our new Free Ownership Readiness diagnostic will 1:30 rank you from 1 to 4 on five foundational pillars of successful business ownership. It is the 1:36 ultimate confidence builder that will tell you, yes, it is time to have that conversation or know 1:42 these are the areas that you might need a little bit more time to develop. If you're interested in 1:45 taking that assessment, you can find the link for that down in the description below. Welcome to the 1:50 Art of succession podcast with Barrett Young. Join us as we explore the strategies, stories and 1:56 insights that shape the journey of leadership, transitions and business success. No matter where 2:00 you find yourself along the journey, this is the podcast where you'll find the tools to make it 2:04 happen. My name is Barrett Young and this is the Art of succession podcast. My guest today is Ori 2:09 El Raviv, who styles himself a small to medium size operator and turnaround specialist. Over the 2:15 past 20 years or so, Ori has found himself in the midst of massive shifts in a number of various 2:20 organizations, ranging from mobile game development in China to the company behind one of 2:25 the first internet meme depositories, IBMs world. Ori welcome to the Art of succession. Thank you 2:31 Barry, it's a pleasure to be here. I want to start off with just a question for you. Like what brings 2:36 you to the art of succession today? What do you really want to, like, convey to our listeners from 2:41 this conversation? First of all, the art of succession is very much in line with what and who 2:46 I am as a succession. I really like to get into existing organizations. I just love the existing 2:52 organization and the small to medium size of it. So this is my passion and this is where I feel I 2:57 am best. So I think that was just a natural kind of thing for me. This is just a fun thing to go 3:03 and just share conversations and experiences and mostly mess and failures. That's a lot of fun. 3:09 That's the reason why I'm here. Turnaround specialist is the title that you're working 3:13 through and you say you like to go into existing businesses. What is it specifically about existing 3:18 businesses that appeals to you? Because I know a lot of entrepreneurs that are like, it needs to be 3:23 my way or the highway. They hate structure, they hate preexisting anything, and they just want to 3:28 create everything from scratch. So what is it about the preexisting business that draws you in? 3:33 I think I'm the type of entrepreneur that just prefer to work out of existing things. If you 3:38 remember the show hero, when there was that one villain that he used to correct the clock or 3:44 something like that? Oh yeah, Sky, Sylar. And I don't know why I'm Canada, but I just like 3:51 existing clocks, and I like finding the things that are in there that need some adjustments, and 3:56 that's what I do now, I think. Similarly to other entrepreneurs, I like my own way. I don't think I'm 4:02 not a bull in a China round, so I don't really go and smash everything around to do it my way, but 4:07 it's definitely something that I want to be able to impose or bring in my own way of working in 4:14 culture, it is a fairly lean way. I'm not strongly going into things to just impose everything, but 4:20 there is definitely a style that I like to work in and the style of people that I like working 4:25 with, and this is where I bring. So unlike other entrepreneurs, I just prefer to work into an 4:31 existing thing and, you know, bring me the mess or bring me just things that need adjustments. And 4:37 that's my entrepreneurship style, I guess. So let's get into your history. Like what brought you to 4:42 this point? How far back do you want to go? Where do you want to start with that? So I think I'm 4:46 defining myself as an operator and turnaround specialist. It's something that I my career 4:51 brought me in. The career has. This is what has been established. It's not that I started early in 4:56 the days. I was like, this is what I want to do. This is why I'm what I'm good at and more like, 5:01 this is how it evolved. And when I look back actually later in my career, actually quite 5:07 recently, and I tried to establish who am I because I've had troubles with my identity, like I 5:13 did not like what I answer. When people ask me what I do, it was always like, I'm a CEO of this, 5:18 whatever that. It took some time to just evolve into who I am regardless of where I work. And I 5:24 think that was a very important thing for me. So my career dates back probably from the China days. 5:30 I moved into China in 2003, and in the midst of that time, I had a very good friend that I played 5:35 basketball with, and it was after three years in China. It was an intersection point for me, and he 5:40 was the one who got me into being my first CEO role. And I went to a mobile gaming company. And 5:47 honestly, until then, the only thing I played was snake. I had no technical background, nothing in it. 5:54 And the thing that he told me that I know how you play basketball, I see you play basketball. You 6:00 will be great. It's one of the foundation things is that there is certain kind of characteristics 6:05 of people that really define who they are also at work. So I think this is not about a 6:12 CEO is better than other things. It just imposes a different role. A lot of things that I learn from 6:17 him, also because I didn't have any background, I didn't know anything. He pretty much told me, don't 6:21 worry, after three months you would know more than anyone else. And that is a key thing for people, is 6:28 not to be afraid because they don't know. You know you need to be your some sort of a self-taught or 6:33 autodidact. You're not very, very quickly, you kind of learn what it is around. You don't really need 6:39 to come with all this massive kind of background and stuff, because I think often this is something 6:44 I don't like in the market when they find is because they try to find Experience, and I think 6:51 I try to find character and people. I think that character and people are more important to me 6:57 than specific experience dates back to then. That's when I started on mobile, porting QA with 7:03 nothing. When we eventually work with the Electronic Arts and Disney and we had a mobile 7:08 game studios, we created 3D games for Electronic Arts. Uh, didn't work with Sony Pictures. 7:15 I also made massive mistakes over there that I, you know, shared in different things. I probably 7:20 was the reason of how he got us there, and I was the reason that it all kind of fell apart, you 7:26 know, it was all me, you know, like I made mistakes that are still painful today. I mean, when you took 7:32 the role of the CEO, was it a turnaround like your your friend saw your your position, 7:38 but I assume a previous CEO had been removed or it had grown to the point of needing a CEO. Like 7:45 where was that company at? And was it just like, optimize it or. Yeah. Talk to me just a little bit 7:52 about what was needed there. China was really the only time when when I was a CEO from scratch 7:57 where we actually built it from scratch. Um, my later in the career, when I 8:04 got into the digital media, into the adtech world, that's where it kind of started. I took more of a 8:10 VP role and then very, very quickly after kind of opportunities presented themselves. At some point, 8:17 I took over a company of a mass email marketing company that was in Serbia. Uh, the company that I 8:24 worked with acquired. And but it was just there and somebody needed to somebody nobody knew what 8:30 to do about it because nobody had the patience or or anything for it. And I took over as a CEO, and 8:37 that was my first real turnaround opportunity. It took something that was losing money. And within a 8:43 year, you know, we turned around to a profitability and for several years. It is done well. So that was 8:50 my first one. And then after that there were all sorts of other kind of opportunities where I took 8:57 over. You know, you don't have to take a company. You know, you sometimes, you know, you take over a 9:02 position, you know, you take over a team, you know, and it's not always a turnaround where everything 9:08 is just a mess and everything is collapsing. It doesn't need to. A turnaround is not a negative. It 9:14 shouldn't be a negative thing. You're not really saving the day. You know, sometimes it's just stuck 9:19 or sometimes, you know, there's too much of the day to day. Sometimes there are areas where it's just 9:27 sliding. It's like a downhill slide. Where are we at now with the company in Serbia about how much 9:33 time is past in China at this point? All right. So China was 2003 to 2009, right. So after that I 9:39 moved back to Israel. That's 2010 ish is around the time where I took over the company in Serbia. 9:47 And then I've been around that for several kind of years. And then, you know, came over the bombs 9:54 where all kind of opportunity. That's when I shifted over to the digital publishing. We there 9:60 was an acquisition of IBM's world. I can offer to step in as a CEO, working with a team in San 10:07 Francisco. Um, there are a lot of kind of challenges in the play, but that was the early 10:12 days of after a couple of years, we established a company that is called literally media, which is 10:17 still, you know, exists today. It's a phenomenon kind of company that basically, you know, gotten to 10:23 a point where it's leading in the humor and entertainment space and is doing tremendously 10:30 well. And I'm no longer as a CEO in the company. I left out in 10:36 2022, but there are wonderful people around it and a very strong kind of CEO that kind of succeeded 10:42 me. And he's brought an amazing kind of things to the place. Talk to me about the shift from. 10:49 Because you said while you were in China that there were highs and that there were lows, like 10:54 you're responsible for the successes. You're also responsible for its eventual failure to go from 10:59 that to now, the company in Serbia that needs somebody to step into failure and turn it 11:06 around. Just talk to me how mentally and emotionally you prepare yourself for that and and 11:12 how your identity is shifting and how you shrug that off and say, I can. I can get it right this 11:18 second time around in a different context, I think I didn't have. That's interesting. I never really 11:24 thought about it that way. But when coming into Belgrade and Serbia, right, the company and you're 11:29 now meeting the team and not really thinking about, oh, can I do it? Can I not do it? I'm, I'm 11:35 going in and I'm, I'm learning. And what is it, what's going on there? What are the people. What is 11:41 the business, you know. What's the current status of it? I don't think I had anything in the back of 11:47 my head like, oh my God, can I do it? It was never really a thing. Um, I went in there 11:54 and it's establishing relationship. It's understanding the landscape, you know. It to me, the 11:60 very first step is, is understanding how the machine works. And, you know, sort of like the hero 12:05 and the clock. You just you want to understand what what makes this thing tick, what does it work? 12:11 And then according to what my own kind of observations are, where do I feel are the 12:16 challenge? I need to understand intersection points. And, you know, intersection points to me are 12:22 stuff that you when you push, you know, things happen. Right. So that's I want to understand where 12:29 are the key kind of points in the business that we need to adjust, or we can adjust that. If we 12:35 would change something then, then it would change course. So in this kind of particular 12:42 space, you know, case, the main thing that we did was a business model. You know, the company back 12:48 then, um, had a business model that had like a lifetime licenses to it. And while the 12:54 lifetime license has a benefit by you're able to sell it for more money. 13:02 Um, at some point, if the market is, is not really good or is not really big, 13:09 then you're sort of like, I'm not saying you're running out of clients, but there's no consistency 13:13 of things. All right. And I like things that operate on a monthly basis. I want to see monthly 13:18 recurring kind of revenue with it. And that was a big issue. So we decided to change the model from 13:24 a lifetime kind of license to a monthly license. And I know that's a very small or 13:31 sometimes maybe obvious kind of adjustment, but it was an adjustment that we needed to make. Uh, we 13:36 had to piss some clients off. You know, not everybody were extremely happy with what we did 13:42 because we sold the license. All right. So we had existing customers that we now had to change a 13:49 model. Now we didn't change the model to them. They bought it and they got some technical support. But 13:53 what we then changed that we said, all right, like we're going to start paying fees for technical 13:59 support. And we also we're starting to work on the 14:06 versions of the technology that we had. And, you know, so we said, all right. Like at some point 14:13 we told them we're no longer going to support this kind of version of it because it's already 14:18 going to be on that. And you need to do this. And if you want to be able for us to upgrade this, 14:24 you're going to pay us a monthly recurrent kind of fee. Um, we had to make some steps that were not 14:29 very popular, you know, among clients, but they were necessary in order for us to be able to 14:36 get new clients, to get something that is sustainable and recurring and to be able to 14:40 evolve on it. So that was on the business front. You know, there's obviously people. 14:47 People are always a thing, you know, when coming to a company, always a thing. Right. Like that's an 14:54 obvious right. But when when a company is uh, is struggling or when it doesn't really go or like, 15:01 the people are unhappy, you can't avoid it. Like, if a company's customers. But team members to team 15:07 members. Yeah. So you have to team members and how they do or are unhappy or unfulfilled or anything 15:14 like that. Now, it's also interesting going into people in Belgrade and Serbia because the 15:19 character and all people, the culture is different, you know, the so you have to adjust yourself to 15:25 the type of people that you are working with, and they're very loyal and that they don't like to 15:31 change kind of jobs. And that is for good or for worse. Us, all right. Some people don't want to 15:37 change jobs, and you're kind of stuck with someone who, you know, is there in their own head. But in 15:43 other kind of scenarios, when they change jobs, you know, it's a little bit of a headache because they 15:47 constantly kind of want more money. Da da da. It's always like, oh my God, you're like this, this kind 15:53 of thing. How is the CEO coming in to this company that's always had a lifetime model, that's had 15:59 some of these employees and they're like, no, this is the way we do it. I mean, how long does it take 16:03 you? Did they recognize that the ship was going down, that there was the need for the turnaround 16:08 here? How quickly are you able to turn around something like that. And what are the keys, do you 16:14 think, to get everybody on board? Yeah, that's a good question. And I think that really depends on 16:18 where where you are. First of all, I think it's important to note that not everyone can be 16:23 salvaged when you go into a place. Right? Um, and there are several reasons to it. One, uh, you 16:30 go into a place and some people that work there, you do not fit your management and culture style. 16:35 Um, that just do not, um. Other people are too far gone. Meaning they're they're just tired 16:42 or they're exhausted or they're mentally kind of in a, in a different kind of place, and there is no 16:47 restriction to it. So there are it's not everyone is created equal. Sometimes you would find your 16:54 the people that are like inspire you. And those are the people that you want, you want to keep. And 16:59 it's a lot of it is a leadership style. Like, I, I, I really want to be able to surround myself with 17:04 people that inspire me because I know for myself I have limited amount of energy, so I need people 17:10 to energize me. Otherwise I'm like, you know, going down in energy and that 17:17 that's not a good thing. So I know that sometimes leaders are supposed to energize 17:24 worries, which I think is totally legit. Right? It's my role as well. But you would be surprised 17:31 how like to me how important it is for me to have people that would energize me back. Yeah. I'm also 17:37 believe that the sum of people are what makes the company. And for me, it's one of those roles, 17:44 is to get people to lift the lids, you know, get them to grow as an individual, as 17:51 people, as influencers inside of the company. If they grow, the company would grow. And 17:57 I often went over and told them that I'm the least important person in the company. You know 18:03 that everybody else is. And it's not necessarily because I diminish the what I the 18:10 importance of what I do, but honestly, it comes from a position that I really, really do believe 18:14 that the people that are in the company are, are more important in terms of their being able to 18:21 elevate the game are just more important for us to be successful. So you're in the company, you're 18:26 talking to people, you're noticing which ones energize you, which ones have that their eyes 18:32 light up when you're talking about the possibility of the future and everything, and so 18:35 you just start winning them over. How do you dislodge the ones that are not only 18:42 unmotivated or too far gone, but are also in positions of power where they actually have like 18:49 an entire department or they're, you know, a VP or something like that in that position where it's 18:55 like, no, this is going to really disrupt the company. And there could be good people that leave 18:59 because of how this fallout happens. How do you work around that? I think one of the things I you 19:05 probably encountered it, right, but you have an eternal feeling that that's this is not going to 19:10 work. Right. But we sometimes we fall into the trap to still continue to let's 19:17 give it a chance. And that's where there is a true. Like, I don't know whether there is a right and 19:22 wrong in it. I only know that that the gut typically tells us the right thing. Like if 19:28 something in your God told me you that this is not going to work, this is very likely not going 19:35 to work. And if there's some sort of an internal kind of intuition that I think happens to us when 19:41 we're open, and that internal intuition is definitely spot on is typically spot 19:48 on. So I think if you we often have to remember when people are not are not good 19:54 fit. Um they're unhappy also. So for them to move on 20:01 like it's sometimes taking the approach where if you fire someone, if you let go someone, you're 20:07 it's like you're in a position of power and you're opposing something on somebody else, and 20:12 they're not the victim. I often don't look at it that way. I look at it in a way, in a truly way 20:17 that that person is very likely unhappy. And that is a good thing for them, that we're that they're 20:24 just going to be able to move on. They're going to be happier. They're going to find something that 20:29 is a better fit for them. I honestly think that way. Now, granted, it may take them time. It's it 20:36 might be painful to begin. Uh, nobody who likes to get to be let go. There is a pride element to 20:42 it. And there is like, it's just not fun. You know, like, you would want to quit rather than being let 20:48 go. There is a certain element of I did it, not somebody else to me, but one of the day. It's not a 20:55 good fit for both sides. So I think the best way to do it 21:02 is, is to act on it faster than, you know, as fast as you can. And now, 21:08 granted, you have to you have to think about all the outcomes. You have to think about your 21:13 communications. I strongly suggest that before doing something like that, there's something that 21:19 is written about how it's going to happen. Who do you need to tell? What is the message that we want? 21:25 Like it's written so it's not going to be somewhere loose, you know, and those are important. 21:31 But now to answer your question, I, I would, I would head on. You know as quickly 21:38 as I can once I identify it, okay. It doesn't happen overnight, but it will happen after a while. 21:44 Talk to me about the shift. I mean, as presume that company's now successful and you've got an 21:49 opportunity at this other company in San Francisco. What are you coming into there? And is 21:56 it now? Are you starting to, in retrospect, see this position as a turnaround executive at 22:03 this point? No, it's still it's still a place where, hey, there's an opportunity a really, you know, had 22:09 enough of Aztec. I would love to do publishing. That sounds really great. I'm going to go over to 22:13 the size of the publisher. This is a fantastic opportunity. And then. And yeah, we encountered this, 22:19 uh, this opportunity to acquire a company that happened the broader kind of organization level, 22:25 and I offer to take it as as a CEO. And it was not an easy ride. 22:32 Um, there are a lot of kind of things around that kind of transaction that happen, which may or may 22:38 not be relevant to this one, but, um, it's it is a very similar kind of 22:45 approach to, to what I had also in Serbia. You you go and meet the people 22:52 and, uh, and you try to win them even though it's hard, you're halfway across 22:59 the world from them. Um, they're googling the name of the company that you work with, and they 23:06 they don't like what they see. Um, and, and you have to build trust, which is not very easy to do. 23:13 Were you working from Israel for this? Yeah, I was working from Israel in that, and they were in San 23:19 Francisco. I go and visit them every now and then. We try to establish kind of coalition 23:23 relationships, you know, and I think it's a I have to be honest, at that point, it was more on me to 23:29 win their, their trust than it is the other way around, because I want that 23:36 kind of to work. And, and they're very good at what they do from an editorial kind of standpoint 23:42 distribution. And, and I bring in my own kind of value from understanding the business and the 23:48 market and so on. And and yeah, we do, we do we do make a change and it does it does kind of work. We 23:55 do grow the company not to the expectations of some of the people that were involved, because 23:60 there are a lot of, uh, problems that happen around it. This is a different kind of topic about how 24:05 you assess and what are the pitfalls. Right? But it does work. And and from them from there, uh, later 24:11 on in after a few years, we encounter another opportunity and we acquired the cheeseburger 24:17 network with the icon Hash Cheeseburger. We also had another meme kind of brand abandon it, which 24:22 is another phenomenon kind of gem with a team that we're actually in Brooklyn. Cheeseburger team 24:28 were in Seattle. So now you're talking about almost like three different kind of teams. And 24:35 how do you kind of orchestrate between them different kind of cultures, stuff that, you know, 24:40 and stuff that you don't know? It's a there's a lot of fun in it. And this is about ten years ago 24:45 at this point when you moved over to this role about 15, 16. So in 2016, I moved over to the 24:52 US. We started in Seattle. That was when we acquired cheeseburger. They had an established 24:57 executive team. You know, the CEO, um, that was there, uh, back then was still a good friend of 25:04 mine. Um, he ran it until kind of point when I, when I came, kind of came in and decided that the best 25:11 thing for him is just to move on, to do other things. But we were left with, uh, a couple of very 25:16 senior executives in it, and it worked like I was excited that we have executives 25:23 that worked with us. You know, suddenly I was like, oh my God, executive. That will also help me kind 25:29 of move the things kind of forward. Uh, but, um, while, again, wonderful people, not 25:35 necessarily at the same type of, um, thinking or, uh, 25:42 just culture, the way that the organization that I kind of came from. And after a while it was just, 25:49 uh, we decided to take a different kind of approach. So they, I think they stayed with 25:56 us for, I don't know, maybe six months. And then we've moved on from, from that. What was the change 26:03 of pace like going from the Serbia company to a Silicon Valley company? And what was your like 26:10 your directive coming into that role? What were you tasked with? You know, figure out how this 26:16 works and then do X with it. The first thing that comes to mind when it comes to test is that is my 26:22 first encounter with the investor that I had in China, which didn't agree to give us a lot of 26:27 money, but it was like part of the investors. And, uh, the one thing that he told me was, here's my 26:33 expectations. And he drew this graph that goes, you this. So when you 26:40 asked me that question, I think this is this is sort of the answer. What is the expectation? You 26:45 know, this, you know, making money and make a lot of it at the height of internet meme culture ten 26:51 years ago, I mean, yeah, look, the the digital media and the digital publishing space is a very fast 26:57 moving industry where every year, every month, everything that it changes a lot from 27:04 the way people are consuming content through the different kind of platforms that control it, 27:11 like you name it, there are fires, like every day there is something else like this works, this 27:16 doesn't work, and so on. Right? There are also successes. We've had our share of success a lot, 27:21 like the company has grown and become a dominant kind of force in it, and still probably not 27:26 recognized enough for what it is, you know, wonderful people on board of a great investors, 27:30 great people and founders behind it. We've done well and it still continues to do really well. You 27:36 know, after I kind of left. So it's a proud place. I'm basically tasked to grow the company and 27:43 I'm tasked to grow the company and grow it, though profitably. This is also an important kind of 27:48 thing and a distinction. Okay, I'm a sustainable growth person. I don't know how to grow companies, 27:54 not profitably. I don't know how to grow revenue just to get it. For example, I don't know, acquire 28:00 the Nasdaq or anything like that. So a venture capital firm would probably not be. They would not 28:06 like my style too much as I'm conservative. I'm not going to conservative venture capital. The 28:12 model is the 0 or 100. You know, you. They would rather have you crash than being sold for two x, 28:19 you know, so they go. The entire business model is there. They're going to invest and put it on, you 28:24 know, their chips in a lot of kind of places. And they're going to bet that one chip that makes it 28:30 big. So if it would be a roulette, that would be the ones that are doing the red and black. There 28:35 would be the all end or not all end. They would get their chips on the 20 and now 18 and 28:41 whatever 19 that right. That's going to be their model. I would rather grow profitably. They 28:48 would rather get hits. And I think that's fine. You know, there's no right and wrong behind. It's just 28:53 a completely different approach to how you do business. What other kind of problems are you 28:58 encountering there? I mean, on Serbia's side, the lifetime subscription, switching to a monthly 29:03 subscription. That makes a little sense. I mean, obviously you're dealing with people now at this 29:08 company as well, but like, what are the challenges in the daily life of an executive? You said every 29:13 day there's something, you know, on fire. What are some of those challenges that people don't 29:17 realize when they go on a website and they see funny stuff, they don't realize there's like real 29:22 executives behind that making decisions. This is more specific to the digital media kind of space. 29:28 So it really is. It's not a specific for a certain kind of company. It's more of a space. Right. So 29:33 that space has. Right. There's content kind of creation and which has evolved. That 29:40 means take 20 years ago there was only World Wide Web. That's where you would go. You would go to 29:45 your browser and you would type IBMs world.com, and you would go there as you move 29:52 along, kind of change. Suddenly there is other things that come up like Facebook is coming up, 29:57 you know, there's Instagram and so on, and suddenly World Wide Web, you know, as like younger 30:03 generation do not even go to a WWE site like that doesn't even exist. They consume content through 30:09 Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and maybe YouTube, Snapchat and so on. Right. So instead of 30:15 having one core place where content kind of exists and now exists in various kind of 30:21 different ecosystems, and it's controlled by platforms, some of them, when you put your content 30:27 in them or pay you, some of them do not. Some of them used to refer traffic to you and then 30:32 stopped, and some of them allow you to do something and then decide to change their mind. 30:38 And no, you can't do it anymore. It is a very, very challenging environment that's from that kind of 30:43 site. And now there is the rise of various kind of companies of various kind of sorts like content. 30:50 There's endless amount of content. So it's really a battle of being able to be seen. There is a 30:57 question of where brands importance inside of digital media. You know, there's we can probably do 31:03 a whole episode on digital kind of landscape, how it evolved and what are the challenges today, what 31:09 are also the dangers? Kind of besides it. What in my eyes is legit? What is a real problem in it and 31:15 where is it also going? How do you get up to speed as a new executive in something that this big, 31:21 moving this fast, acquiring other companies? You get in there and you see how the clock works. But 31:26 I mean, specifically, who are you talking to? What are you looking for? Because so much of it is like 31:31 this has never existed before. We can't just say what what worked in 2005 is going to work in 2015. 31:37 It's changing as you're learning how it's done also. So who are you talking to? How are you 31:42 learning? Let's go to it. To any business like my approach to any business that you would go, it 31:46 doesn't really matter. Digital or whatever it is. Right? And you got to be able to learn how the 31:50 business operates. That my that's my style, right? It's about operating. It's about understanding. 31:55 First of all, how does that operate? Right there is the PNL, the profit and loss. It's not only an 32:01 Excel sheet. You want to understand what's behind the Excel sheet. You know, it's not about just 32:06 plugging in numbers. You know. How are those being created? What are the dependencies? What are the 32:12 forces that are being that? And then you go on also the expenses coincide. What are the expenses? 32:18 What are we spending things on? What is required in order to generate kind of the revenue? What is 32:24 the trend? That's the inside. Then the people that kind of operate it, then you go outside to the 32:30 market and the market trends. And where are we inside of all of it? I think that's kind of the 32:35 fundamentals of it. In many ways. Businesses operate on a very similar kind of basis. They 32:42 eventually everything is about, you know, you're generating money and you're there are some kind 32:47 of expenses to it. And there is a certain kind of sales marketing business kind of cycles to all of 32:53 it. Right? So understanding the fundamentals of the business is what skiing here. And once you 32:59 understand the fundamentals of where it is, what's happened, what works, what doesn't, then you need to 33:05 deduct from it your next step. All right. You want to be able to get. All right. Like this is the 33:10 direction that we're going into. My style is a direction. And I told again I'm not the VC. Let's. 33:16 How do we get to 100 x? It's less my style. I want to know. Right. Like, what is our next logical step? 33:22 Where do we want to go? The logical steps has to comprise by your current status and 33:29 capabilities, the market realities, as well as who do you have to work with and the ambition and 33:35 appetite of the people behind it. Like so, for example, it is great if someone was like, I want to 33:41 do this, you know. But if they don't have the appetite, the intention and the integrity or, you 33:47 know, just the will to do it all through. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, like they're just saying things, 33:52 you know, there's no point. Let's connect the dots between the capabilities, the situation, the market 33:58 and the these the will and desires of the people around them, then paints the picture of the next 34:03 steps and what's possible and what's not possible. I really like working as a yearly kind of roadmap. 34:09 That's the priorities and kind of goals, and I don't get too obsessed over it, but I want to be 34:15 able to know the direction then I like it that I have. How does those kind of break down into 34:19 quarters? That's something that really helps me because it helps define for me and the team what 34:24 is important, what is not important, what is that that we say, like if we want to go there, what does 34:30 that mean for us? Now that's what it's supposed to picture for you. But again, it's an evolution. It 34:34 didn't really happen to me overnight. It's just over time as experience is going to grow. This is 34:39 sort of like what I've learned that works for me. One of the challenges I have with coming into 34:44 broken situations. So I want to get pick your brain on this as a turnaround artist, when you're 34:49 identifying what makes the business run, how do you know this is the reason it's broken versus no, 34:56 this is necessary in this context is just different from what I've seen before. So, you know, 35:01 surface level example a Silicon Valley company, you know, the whole idea of like the ping pong 35:07 tables and the cafeteria and the massage chairs and everything like that. Somebody coming in and 35:11 not used to that culture could be like, well, this is waste. It's, you know, it kills the bottom line 35:16 of the company. Whereas somebody in the company could say, no, this spurs creativity. And so this is 35:20 essential here. When a company is broken like that and you're getting down to the nuts and bolts of 35:26 what makes it run, how do you identify what's broken and what's not in that situation? Does it 35:31 make sense? I'm not stepping into situations where the problem is that they're playing too much ping 35:36 pong, but and the companies that I had, you know, we had a ping pong table at some point you have like 35:41 overpaid people or you have excess benefits or you have things from a PNL standpoint that's like 35:46 we're paying way more than normal for this, but then you find out, no, that's purposeful. That's 35:52 part of the what makes the company successful. And if you cut it, you rip out the engine. I'm not sure 35:56 there is an easy answer. Okay. Because there's your side of what you believe. So for example, you could 36:03 be a scenario that in the company that you kind of go in and operate a certain kind of thing cost 36:09 whatever to x of what you saw experience in a different kind of that cost. And to you it's like, 36:15 well, I just don't get why it costs that much more. We've ran into those kinds of things where 36:22 insights that we acquired in the literature, media kind of side. We saw that 36:29 the opex or the cost of operating the company, as opposed to what it produces, was just did not make 36:35 sense to us. Like, we could not understand how those people would. That kind of thing 36:42 produced this. Like it just did not make sense. Okay. And the only logical kind of thing for us 36:49 to to say was that, well, either they're very things like that. You go down to your logic, 36:55 right? If things cost you way more, then there are a few, Then there are several reasons. 37:02 A one you pay a lot to a person that produces x, uh, or 37:11 the the stuff that you produced. X is a way higher quality than where it is and it's just more 37:18 expensive to produce it. There is. Well, you know, people just are either, you know, the amount of 37:25 time invested into it, it doesn't really occupied kind of that space. Well people well, you know, 37:30 they're just it's ineffective or they're tired and unmotivated or something like that. 37:37 Right. There's you have to understand what are the reasons that things go on. And it's not a right 37:44 and wrong, but sometimes it really shares you in the face, like definitely when it comes to your 37:49 style, you know, like in this style and the way that you operate like this, this just a this just 37:55 doesn't add up. You know, I think a lot of times in these situations that the company 38:02 is maybe stagnant or, or whatever it is. Then when people are tired, you know, then people that are in 38:08 it are tired and not motivated and so on. You can't blame them. You know, it's uh, you can't you 38:14 know, it's the energy inside of the company. And it's not it's not their fault, you know, but. And 38:19 the situation, can you change it or can you not? Sometimes you pay for something for 38:26 an equal quality. You pay. You pay too much. And then it also is then you 38:32 run into the issue about, well, who says this is equal quality or like one say like this is better 38:39 if one says it's like, no, this is not better. Who is right? And you know, there is probably no right 38:45 answer to it because there is just, you know, that's my opinion. You know, that this is just I 38:49 don't really see the difference. You you created this these two things. And I think content is a 38:56 very good example of it. What makes this content better than this content? You know what makes it 39:02 better? You know, and a lot of it is opinion. And I think it's a very it's a very it's a very tough 39:08 one because there's like there is going to be people who went through journalism kind of 39:12 schools and they're very proud and of what they do and they're amazing kind of people. And what 39:19 they ended up kind of do versus someone that I don't know, you found in a different kind of 39:24 country and so on. And, you know, I don't know, for the average Joe. Well, I don't know if this is 39:30 better than the other. You know, at the end of the day, it's it's a challenge, you know, and, uh, I think 39:36 navigating it, this is not necessarily an easy thing, but I think you have to go with your truth. 39:42 So this is this is what you believe in. This is the choices that you made. Uh, this is not a right 39:48 or wrong. I don't I'm not saying there are no other ways. This is just my way. And it's not that 39:55 others are. Don't know what they're doing. Um, although you often think that sometimes things 40:01 like. Oh, my God, I don't even know what they're thinking. You know, obviously there are sometimes 40:05 that's the situations where the tough decisions, there are some things that are just more obvious, 40:10 where you identify areas that obviously you have the expertise and you know more. Your 40:17 guys will step in and make it better. That's. These are the easy things that you identify inside of 40:22 the company where like, this is just this is like a slam dunk kind of improvement. Like, I know 40:28 things could be done better. We just know from experience, you know, we know better. Part of turn 40:33 around. I mean, you can't always just come into a new company and change it. Part of turnaround also 40:37 happens has to happen in an existing role. So you've seen the graph go up like your investor 40:44 told you he wanted to see. But then you're starting to see signs of the landscape is 40:49 changing. Something's shifting. We need to we need to act now. So talk to me about that. How 40:58 innovation sometimes happens when you're comfortable has to happen when? When everything is 41:04 no. Let's just milk it for a little bit longer. If you're not paying attention to that, to the 41:08 horizon. So talk to me about your, your your thoughts on that. And in that position, the company 41:14 at this point, my gut tells me that that's a very, very challenging thing, especially when it comes 41:19 to a small companies, because small companies have limited amount of resources, you want to be able 41:25 to be profitable and sustainably profitable and going after stuff that you 41:32 think would get you to the next step is a risky one. There is a thought process that you should 41:37 always have this, what you would call more of an innovation team. And depending on the size of the 41:43 company, that innovation team would be small or bigger. There is very likely to be a minimum 41:50 set of requirement for that to even make sense, meaning you would have to invest a certain 41:57 kind of amount for it to actually make sense. The type of people that you would involve in it would 42:04 be different because you want it does just different people. You know, those are not your the 42:10 ones that sustain kind of the company and operators. And now you want people to to 42:14 experiment and break and move, right. We've dabbled in it. I, uh, I don't know that I have the magic 42:20 from kind of formula. I think that having that kind of innovation commando, 42:27 if you want to call it that way, is likely an important kind of thing, like an R&D budget, even 42:33 in the smallest kind of company of, yeah, you can call it R&D of hours or time or costs should be 42:40 allocated over here to new and efficient. So here is here the challenge. Okay. I'm not like. So that's 42:46 why I think that the the commando team I'm not sure. Can do also regular like I'm not sure that 42:53 you can go and get an engineer and you get into port. This time you would do commando, right? Like, 43:00 it's like 20% of your hours innovation. There are some companies, right, that they allow people or 43:07 even mandate people that 20% of their time they want you, that you want them to do something 43:11 different. Is that because they want them to be more just to have more fun? Feels to 43:18 me like that's the reason rather than, you know, that this is going to reinvent the wheels. Maybe 43:24 they think they do. I personally think that the type of people you want to reinvent things are 43:29 different from the people that you want to operate in the company. So I that is my opinion. 43:36 Kind of like at a very high level. There's a switching cost there, right? So even if it's just 43:40 one day a week that you have to turn off this efficiency side of your brain and turn on the 43:44 creative side, you're saying that's going to be too hard for most people to Actually produce 43:50 something that changes the business model. I think it's more than the changing cost. I think it's 43:55 about the person, the way that they are comprised. Like the type of person. It's just not like there 44:01 are people that are really good at what they do. Um, they're just if you're going to try to make 44:07 them something that they're not, they're going to be miserable to do, you know. Do you know how the, 44:11 the challenge of, of people that you would want to, you know, they've been around, you want to 44:16 congratulate them and you raise them to be a manager. That person is really good at their job. 44:21 I'm going to dam them to manage their whatever. And that ends up to be a disaster because they 44:27 were really good at this. And now you move them to be a manager and you completely kind of bomb like 44:33 they completely suck at it. You know, they just they're not good managers. They're not happy in it. 44:39 The people that are underneath them are unhappy. Everyone is unhappy at disaster. But you're sort 44:45 of. But how do I how do you avoid or identified? It's also a question because what is then the 44:51 path? You know, sometimes people also want them to be promoted because it's good for their ego, it's 44:57 good for their salaries and so on. But um, but then you promote them and that ends up being a mistake. 45:03 It's not the same thing of what I mentioned to you in terms of the commando team, but it has a 45:09 similar principle to it. That means that, you know, you would I would ideally want people that just 45:16 fit to be a commando team. And some people that really are what good is, is to go and and run the 45:22 existing business. All right. Tell me about wrapping it up at IBMs world at this company. And 45:28 you know, which now I, I assume or I hope that you've seen yourself as this turnaround 45:35 strategist. Uh, what have you been doing and how did you like, shift to, to doing this for, 45:42 for smaller businesses, non VC funded businesses. And yeah talk to me just a little bit about where 45:47 you're at today. It first started with myself. It's not about otherwise. It's about myself, you know. Um, 45:53 I took some time after, uh, I stepped down as a CEO, a little media, and I needed 45:60 to recalibrate myself. You can call it. I did a turnaround for myself, you know, but, 46:07 uh. And I needed someone to help me on that. It's, um. Some of it has to do with, uh, getting to know 46:14 who I am, what I am, what I like to do, what I believe I'm good at, and. And then how do I frame 46:21 it? And it was it's been an interesting kind of process to it because inside of it, you know, it's 46:27 not only what what I'm good at and why I'm good at it and, and what I love to do, it's also what, 46:33 what do I need, you know, to succeed. Um, and that was like an honest kind of assessment of like, 46:39 look, if you want me to succeed, like, what is it that I need? You know, and there are some kind of 46:44 requirements for me that I need and certain kind of things and people that I want to work with, 46:48 certain kind of personalities. So this may seem obvious, but for me, if I 46:55 need the space and I need a mandate, um, I need some time, you know, give 47:02 me some time. Like, don't. It's not. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen for a month, 47:07 you know? Give me some time. Give me the space to operate, give me the ability to kind of make the 47:12 changes that I need to kind of make. Um, I don't want to say move out of the way, but in a way, move 47:18 out of the way. Not because of me, just because I just need I need the ability to kind of do my 47:23 thing. Then it's people like, I, I like to work with people who are that are passionate, that go hard 47:29 and inside of it, uh, that's important to me, various kind of things around it in 47:36 terms of myself. Right. So I'm, I'm at a space that I'm kind of opening myself to those kind of 47:42 opportunities where I'm, I'm best brought in to a place where it's a small to medium size kind of 47:48 opportunity. I'm working with some, as is almost like a shadow kind of advisor to them, shadow kind 47:53 of partner as a CEO, one of the things because I learned that as a CEO myself, this is something 47:60 that was really important to me. Like, I need someone kind of to really talk to an advisor and 48:05 someone that doesn't really have, you know, that doesn't have any emotional attachment to the 48:11 below and to to do the above, you know, that can can just really be there as, as clean as possible. 48:17 That's kind of where I stand right now. I'm I'm extremely passionate. Like I love that. Like I 48:24 loved coming into businesses. I love the the challenge, I love people, I love working with 48:30 people. I love making them, you know, bigger than what they are and stronger and more passionate 48:36 and happier. Um, I love the sustainable kind of environmental business. I love the challenge. I 48:42 love the next step and that's just what makes me happy, you know? So I think the best thing for you 48:49 to do is what makes you happy and what fulfills you and everything like that. And that's the 48:53 journey that I'm at. You said, uh, let me in and get out of the way, kind of jokingly there, but I 48:60 know one of the big shifts that you've had to adapt to here is in small and medium sized 49:05 businesses. You're not just working with the CEO. In many cases, you're working with the owner and 49:11 you. They can't be removed by the board and let you step in and become the CEO. So talk to me 49:17 about how you've approached that conversation where the person who hires you, you look at all 49:23 the you look into the company and you're like, you're the problem here. You're, you know, similar 49:29 to your own situation. You're the reason this company has done well and you're the reason that 49:33 this company is no longer doing well. Um, because that's a very difficult conversation. I think 49:38 that's a very, very first statement. First of all, I think this is about, um, being sensitive 49:45 to it, right? Um, I think that in general, it's not their fault. Like me, I mean, 49:52 people, everyone is doing their best. And over time, you know, you it's you get with clutter, 49:59 you know, just like in a, in a, in a house or anything like that. There's just clutter. That 50:03 clutter kind of interferes with the way that you kind of operate. That is probably a message that I 50:08 will say. It's not that he is the problem or she is the problem the founder is about. It's not that, 50:14 you know, it's not like, oh my God, you're the problem. Get out of the way. It's not that. It's and 50:19 it's not just about people moving because you're you're in my way. It is more of a statement where 50:27 I need, I need I need some space kind of to operate, and I need some space to look into things. 50:32 And it could definitely be in the collaboration. What is a problem, though, As if I would go into a 50:39 space and I would be asked kind of to to go and take it forward. But I will have all those 50:46 types of conditions that I will have to operate with. You know, no, you can't do this or no, you 50:52 can't do that, or this is the way that we do things here. Like, it's not that I can't operate 50:56 with it. Um, but I've learned that this this really limits 51:03 my ability, you know? And again, like I said, there is no right and wrong, but there is a way that I 51:09 can, um, use to running things. And if I'm, if I if it doesn't really happen, then it makes it really, 51:15 really challenging for me to make a difference. And I think that is going to be true to anyone. 51:20 Like one of the things it's probably going to be the number one kind of thing is that you have to 51:25 stay true to yourself and the way that you run things. It's not a right and wrong. You don't have 51:31 to adapt. You know that if you're the leader in it and you're sort of like that, that's what needs to 51:36 be there. Like, you can't be adaptable to others. Actually, I think the business have to shape after 51:42 your own company identity. That's there. It's almost like the heart and soul of it. That's how 51:47 it's going to run. And. And you find the people that are going to be right for you, and you're 51:52 going to be right for them. And I think that's probably the conclusion to it. I'm not kicking 51:58 aside founders. I'd like to work with that. I'd like to elevate what's best for them. But I also 52:03 want to help them. I want to help them get out of you know, I'm assuming that they're also stuck. I'm 52:10 assuming that they're also want some sort of a change. I'm assuming that they're kind of running 52:14 around their own tails, and I'm going to calm down. Let's look at 52:21 things. What is the next step? Let's focus. Um, I'm really going to be about what 52:28 what what is what is important. What is noise? It's going to be a critical element inside of it. 52:35 Everything that resides that is outside of our priorities will be immediately flagged as noise. 52:39 And I'm really looking at its calm down. This is not important. This is important. That's good. I 52:46 mean, sometimes it's just that outside perspective to be honest with them because nobody's ever told 52:50 them they're the problem, but because you can't remove them, it's like, no, you do have to shift. You 52:57 do have to be more firm. In some cases, your company is running itself or your employees are 53:02 running your company for you, but you're diagnosing it. Not to say get out of the way, but 53:08 how are you going to adapt knowing this information? Right. Diagnosis before prescription. 53:15 Yeah, it depends on the situation. Right. Sometimes there's maybe there's owners who, you know are 53:20 ready to move on, or maybe there's owners that still want to be there. And again, if you're not 53:26 really are ready for a change, it's just not going to happen. Right. And I think 53:32 each of us understand that. They know that and have that from experience, not only in business, in 53:37 anywhere. Like you, if you want to change, you got to be able to. It needs changes coming from inside 53:43 that doesn't go from outside. Outside doesn't really change, really. It's a mask. It's a cover up. 53:49 You know, if you want to change, it has to be coming from the inside. Once you're open to it, 53:56 then good things. Well, I'm not sure good things, but change will happen, you know, good or not is is 54:02 the eye of the beholder. Yeah. Or. This has been a great conversation. Um, before we move on to the 54:07 lightning round, is there anything that you wanted to add that I. That I haven't touched on or 54:10 haven't asked? No, I think that's it. I think, um, it's important message to say that nobody is at 54:16 fault for anything. You know, nobody's wrong and everybody is, you know, you would you would find 54:21 yourself that you're in the same boat as others. You know, it's almost like, uh, join the club. It's 54:26 probably a a good message to it. You know, everyone is struggling. It's not something that is unique. 54:33 To some individual, it's a struggle. And it's a and it's a journey that everyone goes through. It's 54:40 not it's not you're not at fault. It's not your problem as you're sometimes something else is 54:46 required. Well, let's get into the lightning round then. Are you ready to go? Yes. All right. Uh, coffee 54:53 or tea? And how do you like it prepared? And that's easy. I'm a coffee person. I would say. Look, I'm 54:58 lately on a cappuccino kind of thing, but but I do. I do prefer the Americano with a little bit of 55:03 milk. It has to be a strong Americano. And I take it with sugar. So I drink coffee with sugar. 55:10 Okay. Um, pie or cake? And do you have a favorite kind? Absolutely. Cake. I don't even know who likes 55:16 pie. You know, I guess cake, but I don't really get. Oh, man, we were doing so well. Uh, 55:23 but I'm chocolate cake, and it could be kind of layers of chocolate mousse. That would be good. 55:30 I'm very much a foodie, so. But. So that would have to be good. Like, I, I would rather not eat a cake 55:37 if it's not, you know, like really well done. I would rather just eat it. Do you have a favorite 55:42 holiday and why? That's a tough one. I think I will still stick to Passover, which was, uh, 55:49 which was a holiday that I like that, uh, when I was young. But I think I still like it because 55:54 Passover has that Passover in a dinner, and everybody kind of comes together and they're all 55:59 preparing their own special kind of dish. You end up the evening when you're not able to move. You 56:04 know, but until then, you're very excited about what you're making, what everybody else is making, 56:09 and hopefully you're able to enjoy it, uh, rather than being stuffed. Yeah. Do you consider yourself 56:14 a morning person or a night person? And do you have a favorite routine? Yeah. Morning. So I love 56:19 getting out of Luxor, so I have to get out of the house. And I like to get my coffee, the coffee 56:24 place. And I like working in a coffee place for, you know, a couple of 2 or 3 hours. That would be 56:29 my best morning kind of routine. Is it just the buzz of the early morning coffee rush that helps 56:35 your head with creativity and stuff like that? Being around other people like that, I need to get 56:39 out of the house like this is not I hate being in the house too long. So to me, that's the best kind 56:45 of morning routine. I do have a morning routine on Saturdays where I go to my CrossFit as at 830 in 56:51 the morning. I love that that's probably the best day of the week when it comes to 830 CrossFit. 56:56 What's a common belief among entrepreneurs that you would want to challenge? I'm not sure this is 57:00 a common belief. I do want to challenge. Entrepreneurship to me is not a doing, it's a 57:05 being. I don't like the idea that entrepreneur has to be defined as someone who is building or 57:11 creating a businesses. I think entrepreneurship is a spirit. So to me, entrepreneurs can definitely be 57:17 people inside of the organization that there are just entrepreneurs there. We don't have to be told 57:22 they want to be able to move kind of ahead. They're creative in what they do. That type of 57:26 people inside of organizations are equally important as as just those are just building 57:31 businesses. Yeah, I love it. I mean, that's the heart behind the Art of succession is a lot of people 57:35 think if you didn't found the company, you're not an entrepreneur. You're second or third generation 57:40 owner. It's like, well, no, there's decisions that have to be made that are not same as last year. Or 57:46 you know, what got us here won't get us there kind of thing. So yeah, I love it. That's awesome. What is 57:52 one thing that you would want your successor to remember you for? Probably that I did what I could. 57:57 I did my best, stayed calm and collected and did what I thought was right. Ori, where are you 58:02 finding creativity right now? Pickleball. Yeah, I know that's 58:09 a funny kind of element to it, but yeah, I can play it for the first time. A couple of months ago, we 58:13 had a company picnic and we got trained on it. So I can now see the process. So I look at videos and 58:19 YouTube videos, and I keep on analyzing what I had to do, what I need to do and how do I need to 58:24 respond. And even within games. I'm obsessed and stuff like that. I get it. I've made fun of a 58:29 couple friends a couple of years ago for being obsessed with it, but then I played once and I'm 58:33 like, oh man, there's leagues. And I could get into all sorts of stuff, so I definitely get the appeal. 58:38 What do you have coming up in the next year that's got you really excited? It's coming up. A 58:42 trip to Orlando Disney with both of my older boys, with a 20 year old and an 18 year old, and it's 58:48 something that I owe to the 18 year old because we were at Orlando in Disney when he was younger, 58:53 like at five, and he still, when he thinks about Disney, he still thinks about that. Where's that? 58:59 You know, you remember the Hollywood studios. There's the guitar roller coaster. There's the 59:03 Rolling Stones kind of guitar roller coaster. And the stuff that you remember is where all of us 59:08 going on. I think he's like waiting outside. He was too short for them. Can't do it. So he is 59:15 leaving. That's his. You know, he just finished high school and he's leaving for, you know, university 59:20 slash college. That's something that I'm looking forward to. It's to correct that impression. I 59:25 don't want it. This is what he will remember out of Disney in Orlando. Is this. So I'm on a mission 59:31 to change that. My only memory of Disney in Orlando is it's something my parents talked about. 59:35 My entire childhood will go someday. And when did they end up going? They took my brother while I 59:40 was in boot camp, and I'm like, are you kidding me? I mean, it's my fault. In the 25 years since then, I 59:47 haven't gone back. But that's like that thing that's scarred in my brain. They took the younger 59:52 favorite son while I was enlisting. Where can people find out more about you? Probably best is 59:58 getting touch on LinkedIn. I am very much available over. I just put a message over there so 1:00:04 it's not going to get overlooked and specifically over that. I'm very passionate, love helping. And if 1:00:11 I can, it'll be an honor. Well, thank you so much for being a guest story. This has been a great 1:00:14 conversation. I've appreciate it. I appreciate it.