Stu: Those who haven't seen it for a while, GC, same name as Chaz's dog, Stu: clearly that was an homage, Chaz.

Kim: You just love Meet the Parents.

Chas: Yeah.

Chas: Hi, I'm Chaz Fisher.

Stu: And I'm Stu Willis.

Chas: And welcome to Draft Zero, a podcast where two emerging filmmakers try to work Chas: out what makes great screenplays work.

Chas: And as with our previous episode, we have one established filmmaker to help lead us on this journey.

Stu: Welcome back, Kim, to the show.

Kim: Thanks so much for having me.

Stu: I mean, you haven't left.

This is still the same.

This is part two of our, Stu: I mean, it's two parts, so it's only for the series.

Stu: Part two of our episodes on Escalating Antagonism.

The first one, Stu: we broke down sinners and its relationship to the tombs cycle, Stu: transgressions, omens, manifestation, banishment, and slumber.

Stu: And the idea is it's a cycle.

And we also brought up a related idea also from Stu: the Mothership TTRPG, which is save, survive, solve, which are goals for your characters.

Stu: And in Mothership, you're meant to give characters the options of doing all Stu: three, but they'll often be put in a situation where they could only do two Stu: or one of them and they have to make some hard decisions.

Chas: And in this particular episode, we're moving out of the horror arena, Chas: away from Mothership, away from Sinners, Chas: into two genres expressly requested by our Patreons to further find out how Chas: we can generate characters.

Chas: Antagonism and thus generate story fuel?

How can we power that middle of our Chas: story through escalating antagonism?

Chas: And we are looking today at Rebel Ridge, written and directed by Jeremy Saulnier, Chas: and Meet the Parents, story by Greg Gliena and Mary Ruth, screenplay by Jim Chas: Hertzfeld and John Hamburg.

Stu: Just before we go into Rebel Ridge, I think one of the interesting things that Stu: struck me in our analysis was that we had two, that there were two sources of antagonism in Sinners, Stu: one which was the Ku Klux Klan, which is the Ku Klux Klan and the other source Stu: being the vampires, which are a hive mind.

Stu: And as a complete aside, it actually struck me that there was an interesting Stu: article from Cory Doctroy, the sci-fi writer and futurist, talking about how Stu: the Ku Klux Klan is actually a pyramid scheme historically, right?

Stu: And I'm like, oh, so they're actually really connected to the hive mind pyramid scheme of the vampires.

Stu: Anyway, so I think that's just something that as we go into Rebel Ridge is going Stu: to be interesting to look at whether tombs also applies with multiple sources Stu: of antagonism in this film or not.

I'm not sure.

Chas: Yeah.

I mean, look, if anyone hasn't listened to the past episode, Chas: you should probably go back and listen to it because we really break down what Chas: the tomb cycle is, how it can generate story, how it maps imperfectly.

Chas: And so it's like really mapping the escalating sources of antagonism very separately Chas: from the classic protagonist journey and act breaks and those kinds of paradigms.

Chas: So, if you haven't listened to that previous episode, probably best to go back Chas: to listen to it before we continue our exploration and application of tombs Chas: in Rebel Ridge and Meet the Parents.

Stu: Yeah, let's continue our journey with the opening journey of Rebel Ridge when Stu: we find our main character on a pushbike.

Excerpts: I need to report a crime.

Excerpts: And this was Cash?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay, he just got accessible.

Excerpts: Big guy must weigh 250.

We're gonna hold on to this money.

I didn't get his Excerpts: badge number, but his last name's Marston.

Excerpts: You're gonna need to leave.

And I suspect number two.

Excerpts: Hey, Mike!

I'm posting bail.

Stay low, all right?

Excerpts: You can fight for the money, but that'll take you most of a year and cost you Excerpts: twice what you're owed.

And it's legal?

Excerpts: It's law.

May I at least see my cousin?

You can fuck right off.

Excerpts: I would love to, sir, just as soon as I get my money back.

He did not stand Excerpts: in my station, in front of my officers, and set turns.

Excerpts: You need to be very, very careful.

Excerpts: Let's not do that.

Chief!

Excerpts: What are we looking at?

Uh-huh.

I think he's Marine Corps martial arts MCMAP.

One mind, any weapon.

Excerpts: Whatever you decide to do, you do it damn far from here.

Stu: Rebel Ridge opens with Terry Richmond as he's cycling on a pushbike listening to Iron Maiden.

Stu: With his headphones on, it's a great use of diegetic sound because he can't Stu: hear the police car behind him with the sirens on, who then bumps into him to knock him off a bike.

Stu: A kind of version of the pit maneuver, which they do at the end, Stu: which is where you use the car to kind of spin a vehicle out of control.

Stu: They basically find him to have $36,000 in cash.

He tries to be as honest as Stu: possible, but they decide that they're going to seize the cash via civil forfeiture Stu: because they believe it's involved in trafficking.

Excerpts: It's called civil asset forfeiture and it's legal well it's a law it's supposed Excerpts: to help feds buy cartels right but they didn't find any drugs i saw all they Excerpts: need is suspicion because the seizure isn't tied to any criminal charges and Excerpts: here's where it gets real murky chief gets to keep the, Excerpts: for discretionary funds, whatever that means.

Excerpts: Someone in Permits told me he bought a $900 margarita machine for Cinco de Mayo.

Excerpts: Right, so never mind me, huh?

Excerpts: Share it with your amendment as a due process.

Doesn't matter.

Excerpts: It's the 5th and 14th, but when they bring this case, you won't even be named.

Excerpts: It's literally gonna read, how much money was it again?

36K.

Excerpts: It'll read the township of Shelby Springs versus $36,000, because your property has no civil rights.

Excerpts: Okay, but you can help me get it back.

Excerpts: Okay thank you i mean yes you can fight for the money but that'll take you most Excerpts: of a year and cost you twice what you're owed.

Stu: Terry's already given them the reason that he wants the money Stu: which is it's for bail for his brother cousin cousin that's an important distinction Stu: because someone else also says it's his brother he's like no it's my cousin Stu: and he basically needs to kind of the the first part of the film is him trying Stu: to get the money to get his brother out on bail Because as it turns out, his brother, Stu: his cousin, turns out his cousin would be in kind of peril because he informed on a gangster, right?

Stu: That he's basically probably going to get shivved in prison.

Stu: The long story short is he is Stu: targeted by the police.

They find him with money, shake him down, take it.

Stu: His cousin ends up being killed as he warned them.

The police realize they fucked Stu: up, throw him out of town.

Stu: But he's brought back into town.

Things go from bad to worse, Stu: and he tries to extract revenge against the corrupt police officers.

Chas: I mean, in that very, very short summary, you're missing that he is like John Rambo, Chas: like he's a superstar in hand-to-hand combat in particular, in unarmed combat, Chas: and so the police of this town have fucked with the wrong guy.

Excerpts: Marine Corps Martial Arts Program.

Excerpts: What?

MCMAP.

Combat system combines hand-to-hand, close quarters...

Excerpts: Oh, I think he's on the Wikipedia page teaching jujitsu to the 6th Marine Regiment.

Excerpts: Okay.

Steam building.

Excerpts: One mine, any weapon.

Calling any units on patrol.

Yep.

Chas: Like he is capable and proves that he's capable of taking down an entire armed Chas: police force without using a single gun.

Stu: That sequence is so good when they're like McMap.

Chas: Oh yeah.

Stu: He was in the army but he never he was never.

Kim: He never went to afghanistan or iraq oh uh don johnson literally says like my Kim: heart damn near skipped a beat like that's the omen for him is.

Chas: Is

Kim: Like the mcmaps.

Chas: Thing or the um.

Stu: Yeah they've got the annoying setup they're.

Kim: Rebooting the wi-fi.

Excerpts: A wi-fi up yet it's coming.

Stu: And she's googling it and then they have the oh shit mcmaps dance marine corps.

Chas: Martial arts program just.

Stu: As the situation escalates for him to have to use the power so.

Chas: But we've got two competing forces here we've got the corrupt police force and Chas: then we've got uh terry's abilities really and i they are in clear antagonism Chas: to each other because you Chas: sent a message on the discord saying terry's the monster in this like terry's Chas: the source of antagonism like he's not but you can there is a all of tombs will Chas: map equally onto terry's escalation as it will map onto the police's escalation in this it's.

Kim: Really great to see on the poster, the tagline is their laws, his rules.

Kim: And it's just this very clear distillation of like, Kim: The transgressions go both ways.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: And I think this is useful.

We've talked about it before.

Not that everyone Stu: is into writing loglines as a development tool, but I often find it useful to Stu: write a logline from the perspective of different characters, Stu: particularly the primary antagonist.

Stu: And actually, we're working on some casting stuff, Chas and I, Stu: at the moment, and we've actually re-ridden the synopsis centered on the character of every cast.

Kim: Oh, my God.

Stu: Particularly the the the villain and it's Stu: such a good like way of rigor testing this and Stu: so i love the idea that tombs when i watch this and went well Stu: of course because in an action movie because what we haven't tapped Stu: into we've talked about the horror and the monster but what does that mean right Stu: as a source of antagonism not every movie is going to have an antagonist that Stu: you could describe as the monster or the horror right and we're talking about Stu: something which is of incredible power, right?

Stu: We did a whole series on antagonism and we talked about things about does the Stu: source of antagonism have agency or not?

Stu: Does it make decisions or not?

Can you negotiate with it or not?

Stu: And you can't negotiate with the xenomorph, right?

You can't negotiate with Stu: the predator, but the predator has needs.

Stu: The predator is different to the storm, right?

Stu: And it's possibly a little bit different to the shark in Jaws.

Stu: The shark in Jaws is probably a little bit closer to the storm, Stu: but it's not a random thing, right?

These things exist in a spectrum.

Stu: And, you know, Rennick has got a need in Sinners that he's trying to fulfill, Stu: and you can't really negotiate with Rennick, right?

Right.

Stu: You can kind of cite, like, you can satisfy his hunger, but that's not a negotiation.

Stu: And I think what's interesting about Rebel Ridge is Terry does try to negotiate Stu: and strike a deal with Chief Sandy Byrne, the character, Stu: the chief of police of the town's police, played by Don Johnson.

Stu: And Don Johnson rejects that because he basically says he basically feels like Stu: he's not someone you negotiate with because it belittles him.

Chas: This is a perfect example of the tombs thing, because I think that deal that Chas: you're talking about is Terry's transgression that awakes the manifestation Chas: of evil that is these corrupt cops.

Chas: He has the audacity to come into that police station to report the cops as having Chas: robbed him and then offer a deal.

Kim: To offer the deal, yeah.

Chas: There's a great line from Don Johnson later where he says, the deal was fair.

Chas: The issue is that you felt that you were allowed to offer it.

Chas: He tells him that he has transgressed against the rules of the laws or the rules Chas: of this system of this world.

Kim: It's about power, yeah.

Chas: Like, the transgression against Chas: Terry is very obvious.

It happens in the first 30 seconds of the film.

Chas: It's the cops running him off the road and then stealing his money.

Chas: And then there is a clear set of a clear omens sequence, which is Terry just Chas: trying to find out whether what's happened to him is legal or not and what he Chas: can do about trying to fix the situation.

Chas: And there's almost like this wonderful sort of Kafkaesque unraveling of how Chas: this civil forfeiture works as explained to him by Summer.

Stu: So, that's the mystery to solve.

One, what it is they're doing and then the larger corruption.

Chas: Yeah.

Well, the mystery to solve definitely escalates because there's the initial Chas: mystery, and it's almost on a per sequence basis, but it's like the initial Chas: mystery is like, are they allowed to get away with it?

Chas: And the answer, it gets resolved that the first act of yes, there's actually Chas: nothing he can do legally within the system to get his money back and to get his cousin out of jail.

Chas: And then there's the beginnings of the manifestation, both on Terry's side and on Don Johnson's side.

Chas: And then the cops actually, unfortunately, Terry's cousin dies.

Chas: And that there is a point in the middle of the movie where Terry could let everything go.

Chas: And he gets pulled back in because they try to frame Summer.

Stu: The clerk, she a clerk?

Kim: Like six cases away from JD.

Stu: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Excerpts: I'm working.

Hey, look, I'm sorry.

It's just these cops are fucking with me.

Excerpts: Yeah, they're saying the same thing about you.

They're transferring him.

Excerpts: He's on the bus right now.

Sorry to hear that.

You said you could help.

Chas: And that's when there's a new mystery posed because they're trying to figure Chas: out why is it that the cops are doing it.

Chas: The scale of the conspiracy opens up and Terry goes, they're doing this for a reason.

Chas: Why have they offered me this out?

Stu: So, this structure is really interesting because we talk about it then being Stu: both ways.

But in some ways, and I've seen this pattern before, Stu: is this is almost like Tom Tombs.

Chas: Oh, gosh.

Kim: Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Stu: As in the midpoint, they succeed in banishing him.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: But then they transgress by going after his friend, and thus he comes back, and then it escalates.

Stu: And I say I've seen this structure before, because I went away with some of Stu: my friends on the weekend.

And I watched three canon 1980s action movies.

Stu: I watched American Ninja 1, American Ninja 2, and Avenging Force.

Stu: And they are all very similar to this, which is basically the bad guys seem Stu: to be the monsters until the middle of the film or so.

Stu: And then it turns out the actual monster is the action hero that they've awakened Stu: who's going to absolutely fuck them up.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: Right?

And it's kind of an interesting flip because you could, Stu: if you remade Rebel Ridge, I can't believe I'm just, it's just what we're talking about.

Stu: Like if it was like the predator on a bike knocking over and then you're like, Stu: oh, like you could tell this story from the cop's point of view and about them Stu: being picked off one by one.

Kim: Well, I had a reading of this that was like, the horror for me wasn't so much Kim: like these cops that are corrupt or that have chosen to be corrupt out of greed.

Kim: I'm not saying that anything they do is justified, but it was really interesting Kim: that detail that when they finally unraveled the mystery, the town is essentially Kim: bankrupt because of the civil case that happened two years prior.

Kim: And they are exploiting civil forfeiture legislation in order to like wrongly Kim: imprison a whole bunch of people.

Kim: Get cash from the people who try and bring cash into town to get to post those Kim: people's bail and use that money to go back into the community.

Excerpts: What's on Mike's video?

Excerpts: What'd they do to him?

Enough to get us sued.

You seen it?

No.

Excerpts: Let me guess.

You don't want to fucking know.

Excerpts: Wouldn't matter if I did.

There was another lawsuit and it's disincorporation.

Excerpts: Shelby Springs disappears.

Swallowed up by the parish.

Excerpts: You all gonna leave me like this?

Alive?

Yeah.

For now.

Excerpts: You knew Judy.

What would you think about all this?

What you doing to me?

She knew what you did.

Excerpts: She'd want to watch.

Kim: So like in the cops point of view Kim: what they're doing is like making the best of a shitty Kim: situation and and the i think Kim: rebel ridge does a really good job of like showing Kim: these systems of of Kim: of power and oppression like the Kim: legislation of civil forfeiture breeds corruption Kim: it uh it enables and facilitates corruption as Kim: opposed to the corruption being like you know these Kim: there's few bad eggs uh bad apples or whatever rotten apples in this town um Kim: it's like this nationwide rot uh that humans are caught up in on on both sides Kim: of the law or on all of these different factions.

Stu: The system is designed to do this, right?

Stu: This is kind of the looser effect, if you know about it.

Stu: The system is actually designed to create this kind of behavior, Stu: and then the system can deny it, Stu: which is kind of the lucifer effect is kind of some of the stuff that happened Stu: at Abu Ghraib and the way that the military was like, no, no, Stu: no, that's the bad apples.

Stu: And then the psychologist who was involved with it, he ran the Stanford experiment Stu: and all of his career since then is being like, holy shit, I ran the Stanford Stu: experiment.

I need to make up and work out what the fuck happened.

Stu: And he talks about there being systems that are designed to create this kind Stu: of abhorrent behavior because it benefits the system, but allows the system Stu: to then divorce themselves from that behavior and be like, well, that wasn't us.

Stu: And you are right.

And I think what is great about this in terms of the manifestation and the mystery, Stu: it is the omens build so well that when you get to that point when you're like, Stu: oh, this isn't just some corrupt cops like we thought in act one, Stu: like in the opening scene when they knocked him off.

Stu: This is literally the whole town surviving on blood money.

Yeah.

Chas: And I think, Stu, to your point about this being Tom Tombs, I think this film Chas: more classically maps, you could see Transgression as being the opening of the Chas: film, Omens being the rest of the first act, Chas: the whole second act being Manifestation, and then the final act being Banishment, Chas: and then ending with just a shot of slumber.

Chas: Well, it's more than a shot.

It's when on the highway, when they learn that Chas: they're being escorted, not...

Chas: Chased and and there is uh slumber there so i think and.

Stu: It's interesting because yeah there is this question of like have the cops just Stu: turned on their captain so.

Chas: The end.

Stu: Of the film if you haven't seen it is the captain shoots this cop which.

Chas: They coden.

Stu: Servico he's kind of he's not a double agent he's still corrupt.

Chas: He's just feeding he's the one who runs him off the the bike at the beginning and.

Stu: I love that i love that.

Chas: He's kind.

Stu: Of the good guy but not really right like but i think it gets into the complexities.

Chas: Of those things right definitely like.

Stu: I don't think it's condemning his behavior i don't think it's presenting him Stu: as a hero it's a little bit more neutral in terms of like yeah he's obviously Stu: uncomfortable with what's going on but he's still participating in it.

Chas: I didn't.

Kim: Love the kind of cop redemption arcs we.

Chas: Got towards.

Kim: The end of that film but i do think that that's what made me feel like this Kim: film was not saying the antagonists of these four cops or.

Chas: However many.

Kim: It was like this system that twists.

Chas: Yes you.

Kim: Know they made a really big deal out of most of these cops are fathers of kids.

Chas: Like that they've got families they're just like us yeah is.

Excerpts: She hurt as i could tell now Excerpts: where are they taking on i don't know look man Excerpts: we're not all like i'm married okay okay hey hey i got a kid so yeah so does Excerpts: she so let's not waste any fucking time but.

Kim: It's like really trying to regardless of whether you agree with that politic Kim: saying that these are human beings caught up in this current system.

Chas: But what i was gonna say and i fully agree with Chas: that by the way i think each sequence runs through Chas: its own tomb cycle i think each sequence culminates in a banishment and a slumber Chas: and then start the next sequence starts with a new transgression right so like Chas: even just at the the beginning so the the culmination of terry goes in and reports the cops to themselves, Chas: and he is literally told to fuck off right yeah.

Excerpts: We'll follow up on this don't exactly have visiting hours around here but if Excerpts: you come back here at 9 a.m on monday morning you can see your cousin and we'll put this to bed, Excerpts: Thank you.

Now fuck off.

Chas: And he leaves.

And he goes.

And he goes and catches a fish and has a little cookout.

Chas: And he knows that if he arrives at 9am the next morning, he's going to get to Chas: see his cousin.

And they're going to do the deal.

Chas: And then the transgression is that the chief has fucked him over.

Chas: Right?

And so there's another transgression.

And then there's more omens.

Chas: Omens and that culminates in the to me the the overall manifestation like the Chas: shit-eating grin scene is when Chas: a terry understands how corrupt this cop is that there is going to be no, Chas: nothing he can do and even talks about the acronym of pace of all the tactics Chas: that he can do and he's run through all of them and he's now on the last one Chas: and it's also that wonderful mcmap revelation when the cops understand the manifestation of Terry.

Excerpts: I see.

Do you?

Because the offer you made wasn't unreasonable.

Excerpts: In fact, it was more than fair as far as the trouble it would save.

Excerpts: Well, it still stands.

So you don't see.

Excerpts: It wasn't the offer you made.

The fact that you thought you were entitled to make one.

Excerpts: Well, my intentions weren't too fair.

Straight to hell with your intentions.

Excerpts: You did not stand in my station in front of my officers Excerpts: and set terms i wasn't aware Excerpts: it was a pissing contest come on now isn't it Excerpts: always so whatever i say my cousin you could offer me eternal life or a can't Excerpts: fish sandwich and the answer would still be the same especially since you stopped Excerpts: calling me sir which is about the only thing you had going for you well see Excerpts: that's a courtesy I extend only so far.

Chas: Right.

And I'm all still at the first act turning point, but then we've got Chas: a whole other sequence, multiple sequences in the midpoint, which end in a banishment.

Chas: Uh, Stu, you talked about the deescalation where Terry is literally he's left, Chas: right?

He has been banished.

Chas: His cousin said he's, he's clean.

He's, he's away free.

Right.

Chas: But then the cops transgress by the, Chas: trying to fake Summer's- by overdosing Summer.

And so, he's brought back in.

Chas: And so, I think in this film, more classically, you can actually see not only Chas: the overall escalation, Chas: Tombs applying overall to the film to both Terry as an antagonist to these cops Chas: and the system of corruption against Terry, but then also within each sequence, Chas: there is this escalation and cycle.

Stu: If the cops didn't shake down his friend who gave him the money in the first Stu: place, this Chinese restaurant, because he rings him up again and goes, I need another $10,000.

Stu: And the guy's like, I can't, because the cops have just turned up and seized Stu: a bunch of the cash in the safe.

Stu: If they hadn't done that, again, none of this would have happened.

Stu: And so, I think it's a really good analysis.

It is actually a really good structural tool.

Stu: Right go tombs for each sequence and then Stu: you go who is now transgressing to wake Stu: the someone and it gives you that kind of uh Stu: you know positive negative alternate contrast Stu: thing with this but character a is now slumbering but character b now has transgressed Stu: yeah but then now maybe they're the one who's slumbered and then the other person Stu: transgresses right and that's what makes this film have such a riveting push-pull to it.

Stu: And I think the other thing it does, coming back to the solve, Stu: survive, and save, is...

Stu: The beginning, he wants to save his brother, right?

The soul of the mystery Stu: is why the cop's dealing with his money.

Like, that we learn.

Stu: Like, we don't know it's a mystery until it kind of becomes clear that it's systematic.

Stu: And then once his brother's dead, the save is transferred onto Summer.

Stu: That's the very reason he's brought back, right?

Stu: That they've kind of misjudged that he has affection for her.

Stu: They thought she was alone and they're trying to get her off because she's the Stu: one who's close to uncovering the mystery.

Yeah.

Right?

Stu: And then the solve is how do we actually banish these cops?

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: Like, what information do we need?

And then they work it out that part of the Stu: conspiracy is the body cam footage.

Stu: That the reason they've been holding these people for the Stu: 90 days or whatever it is is Stu: so the basically there's an expiry on Stu: the body cam footage as evidence and it gets white Stu: right and that's why they've been holding these people and Stu: they they kick them down to whatever it is Stu: in the american court system so they don't have to go to you know Stu: it's all that kind of fucking of the system that people can Stu: exploit so i think what's interesting is Stu: how those two things kind of work together in Stu: this and you get that sense of power and as we said they're both monsters for Stu: each other right they you've kind of got the the many the army of the cops and Stu: when he agrees to meet them at rebel ridge it takes its time oh yeah showing Stu: how many people have turned up and you're like oh right but.

Chas: I mean let's talk about that moment because that's the transition from, classically, Chas: the low point of the film, some has been taken by the police, Chas: and the mystery has been resolved, and then it's about, we're coming up into Chas: the big interaction between Terry and the police.

Chas: And there's deliberately a slumber, right?

Chas: Terry says, I'll see you at dawn.

Like he's got that badass speech about, Chas: you know, maybe I'll see you coming and maybe if you're lucky you'll see me.

Excerpts: Fucking first light.

How about right now?

I gotta see what's waiting for me.

Excerpts: Works out well for you too.

Oh yeah?

Yeah.

You just might see me coming.

Chas: Right they deliberately take their foot off the gas and have a pause right and Chas: then before he acts he calls the chief with that again another series like this Chas: is like almost classic 80s, Chas: stallone or schwarzenegger dialogue but aaron pierre just fucking nails it and Chas: jeremy solonier writes the shit out of it but that phone call where he's like Chas: you know how you're talking about de-escalation.

Excerpts: Yeah, it's gotten out of hand.

Real soup sandwich.

We can agree on that.

Excerpts: Got me thinking about that conversation we had in the cruiser.

About de-escalation.

Excerpts: That also takes both sides, you know.

So I was thinking, what if we just walk away?

Excerpts: Well, now you're starting to talk.

Nah.

Chas: And then I thought, nah.

And then he just pulls the wall off the cop shop.

Chas: So, that's him transgressing.

There's been a slumber, there's been banishment, Chas: and he is committing the transgression of, Chas: he's calling him up and telling him, we could de-escalate this, Chas: we could solve this through the negotiation.

And then I thought, nah.

Kim: So good yeah yeah i'm Kim: just like i really like this movie like probably Kim: right up until the end i felt like i'm going Kim: off topic a little bit but the like the repeat Kim: beat of drugging summer again felt like Kim: gratuitous um and maybe like a Kim: bit damsel and distressy and this notion of Kim: like having one of the good apples turning Kim: but yeah i think what struck me as like Kim: throughout the movie they Kim: do such a good job of like portraying power Kim: but not necessarily directly and Kim: and actively um like the first time Kim: terry and summer meet they go into Kim: a diner and she gets a drink and Kim: then they're talking about civil forfeiture legislation a cop walks in and a Kim: severe rob uh summer goes quiet and then goes let's let's leave and they just Kim: they have to exit the diner in order to continue their conversation it's just Kim: this very very short small thing and then later in the uh.

Kim: Happens multiple times but like cop cars Kim: following behind and then Kim: maybe like once they cross the bridge to Kim: go out of town the cop car turns around it's later Kim: revealed that that is um serpico or whoever like you know that their ally but Kim: just like a cop car with no face attached to it is so ominous uh in this in Kim: this world um yeah they they do a great job of like almost um having these, like, Kim: sentient creatures lurking about.

Chas: And Aaron's, sorry, not Aaron, Terry's transgression is to not be afraid of them.

Kim: Having the audacity to be a martial arts badass.

Chas: Yeah.

But he's not just, it's not just he knows that he's physically in control of the situation.

Chas: He's also intellectually, he's in control of his emotions nearly at all points.

Chas: There's two points, and I think they're really important, where he actually Chas: shows his emotions.

Actually, I'm going to say three.

Chas: The first one is when the police chief has just fucked him over, Chas: reneged on the deal, and Terry rides his push bike after the prison bus so that Chas: he can talk to his cousin and tell him his plan.

Chas: And then because the bus is heavily geared and the bus driver has seen him coming Chas: and is trying to like drive away.

Chas: Terry in this sign of like physical triumph has everyone cheering him on as Chas: on his push bike, he rides, overtakes the bus.

Chas: And the only reason he's doing that is to show this bus driver that he is more Chas: powerful, that he is not afraid.

Chas: You know, it's this moment of triumphalism that he is not supposed to experience.

Chas: The other moment of emotion is clearly when his cousin has died.

Chas: But then the final moment when he pulls that wall off the cop shop after the Chas: thing, yeah, where he's just like screaming, like he's just letting the adrenaline out.

Chas: And those are the only moments where, like, he's letting his body and his emotions Chas: out, but it feels like he knows that he's doing that and he's allowing himself Chas: to do that and they're supporting his objective.

Chas: Totally.

So, he's not just a physical threat.

He's, yeah.

Kim: It's so interesting that I was thinking about, like, restraint and self-control Kim: in the context of, like, survival for this movie.

Kim: Like, uh, even just from the first 30 seconds, you know, he starts to try and Kim: get up and the cops are going belly on the ground.

Kim: It's like, you've got to restrain yourself, you know, as a black man being, Kim: um, apprehended by police, like self-control is survival.

Kim: And it requires this, like, superhuman, Kim: profoundly unreasonable, profoundly unfair degree of self-control, Kim: which Terry is, like, the one person who actually does have that because of Kim: his discipline and training.

Chas: But he's still punished.

Kim: Totally.

Chas: Regardless.

Kim: Totally.

Chas: And he runs through all his options until he's like, now I've just got to fuck Chas: you guys all up because self-restraint does not serve me.

Kim: But he still doesn't kill anyone.

Chas: Yeah.

I mean, he maims a few people.

Kim: Yeah, that's true.

Stu: But what is interesting is it's such a contrast to the police, Stu: right?

They shoot in order to exert control.

He breaks arms.

Stu: Right.

Like he, he, he does the minimum amount of violence necessary in order Stu: to take control of the situation.

They let it escalate it.

Stu: And, and coming back to Kim thing, we may cut this from the video, Stu: but when I've taught screenwriting before, and I talk about given circumstances, Stu: my now wife, uh, she enjoys watching police interrogation videos because she is a psychologist.

Stu: And there's this video that I now use in screenwriting class, Stu: which is comparing two innocent people being interrogated by the cops.

Stu: One is black, one is white.

Stu: The emotional control that the black man constantly exerts is incredible in Stu: contrast to the white guy who's like, I didn't fucking do that.

Stu: Both innocent, right?

It's just that you can tell, Stu: for me, and look, I obviously have incredible white privilege and male white Stu: privilege here, but it does remind you of Terry, that you can see this guy going, Stu: having to calmly explain to this cop all the facts.

Stu: He ended up getting awarded a huge amount of sum for wrongful arrest, right?

Stu: But it's just such a striking difference in given circumstances, Stu: changing the kind of tactics that people- I'm doing it in very clinical terms Stu: rather than sociopolitical ones, but the kind of tactics that people have to choose, right?

Stu: And the thing is, in this story, yeah, their transgression, the monster they Stu: have woken is that they've got someone who actually is capable of defeating them, right?

Stu: Or, you know, I think the ending is interesting because on this watch, Stu: right, they don't spend a lot of time doing it, but I think when Chief Sandy Stu: shoots, quote-unquote, Stu: Serpico, who...

Chas: Ed.

Stu: Ed, yeah.

Ed?

Yeah.

Kim: Right, from the office.

Yeah.

Stu: Yes, right.

Great casting.

when he Stu: shoots him you can see everyone except like Stu: the other really really bad cop all be Stu: a little bit like what the fuck right because they realize that he is willing Stu: to kill other kill them in order to get what they want so i think they kind Stu: of turn against him out of self-preservation more than they are protecting terry right and.

Chas: My view of the escort was it was more to escort ed to hospital then.

Kim: Yeah.

Chas: And I totally agree with you, Kim, in that they're trying to redeem some of Chas: these very corrupt cops who've done heinous things.

Chas: But I also agree that they have gone great lengths in the storytelling to say Chas: that these cops are in a situation where, Chas: corruption is the only way they can exist in terms of protecting their community Chas: and the line that gets drawn for them at the end is some of these cops are okay Chas: with that they've got different lines of corruption that they're willing to Chas: pass and they're they're all individually confronted with that you know the.

Kim: Slumber in rebel ridge is so interesting to me precisely because of that because Kim: you've got like you've got kind of narrative questions of like is summer going Kim: to be okay is fucking roy from the office gonna be okay is he gonna pull through um.

Chas: Oh i'm like terry's gonna be in jail for the rest of his life it doesn't matter Chas: he's got the dash cam tied to some cops are gonna come to take that dash cam Chas: off him and smash it to pieces and then he will yeah yeah he's.

Kim: Broken so many laws that like there's no way he's getting out of this um And just more widely, Kim: the sociopolitical, economic legislation that allows not only for civil forfeiture, Kim: but allowed this small town to get so unsupported by state and federal governments.

Kim: It's like the fact that the water isn't safe to drink here.

Kim: The horror, the capital H horror of like small town America in that regard, Kim: Terry's actions throughout have shone a light on it, but have not meaningfully Kim: banished that horror, the systemic kind of broader one.

Chas: Yeah.

I mean, the fact is they can't, they're such a small town that they can Chas: only afford a certain level of judiciary and they're exploiting that level of Chas: judiciary that they can only do misdemeanors.

Chas: And that means that they can hold people for a certain amount of time without Chas: bail or trial and all those kind of things.

Chas: Like, yeah, it was in both my watches, the bit where they are talking to the Chas: judge was actually the bit where it dipped for me, Chas: where they were like trying to open up the conspiracy a bit more broadly beyond Chas: these individual cops being cunts.

Stu: It didn't dim for me for that reason.

Stu: It's that whole logic of, oh, you know, trials are really expensive.

Stu: It's just going to be easier if everyone that's guilty is just...

Stu: I was going to say export it, you know, is like sent to a foreign country.

Stu: That will just make it all a bit easier.

It's that kind of...

Chas: To timestamp this podcast recording, we just had a very expensive trial of mushroom Chas: murdering lady, and we don't yet know what the verdict is.

Stu: Very prejudiced terminology there, mushroom murdering.

Chas: Oh, absolutely.

Kim: Wow.

Chas: She fucking did it.

Kim: Defamation on Drop Zero.

Chas: I mean, I also, I also think she's going to be found not guilty because it's Chas: really hard to prove someone guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Chas: I think she's going to successfully get away with murdering three people.

Stu: I'll murder or manslaughter.

And that's always the question.

Chas: Poisoning is not manslaughter that has intent.

Kim: It's a little oopsie.

It's mushrooms.

Stu: Yeah, Chaz.

Just don't cook me beef Wellington, please.

Kim: Please cook me beef Wellington.

Stu: So, to wrap this up, I think that discussion before we go to meeting the parents, Stu: which I also think is going to bring some new things, Stu: I think part of the way it's able to structure itself is having a good, Stu: strong mystery to solve that slowly escalates and that does have power.

Stu: Picking an antagonist that is kind of personified in a character like Chief Stu: Sandy, but the actual horror is the larger systemic thing that allows the police force to be corrupt.

Stu: And they are, I mean, this is why corrupt gods are such great villains in fiction, Stu: is because they have access to so much power.

Stu: Right.

And they've got that power in there and you kind of see it, Stu: the omens in a lot of particular ways.

But I do think it is really interesting Stu: for me flipping it around and looking at films like this where you want your hero to...

Stu: To be have this sense of power and i Stu: wouldn't be surprised you know if taken has this level Stu: of there is tunes for taken right you Stu: know obviously they transgress by taking his daughter but the Stu: omens where he shows it and all that kind of stuff i do think these Stu: kinds of action films may have that right Stu: and i do think there is a connection to horror Stu: and action films for that reason it's about really Stu: huge forces and i made my joke about those canon films but Stu: um they absolutely do that i don't think Stu: it's very good but avenging force which Stu: is like 1985 is about a black man standing Stu: for mayor and a group of people in a Stu: conspiracy kill him for having the audacity to.

Stu: Be a black man standing for mayor but they actually fuck up Stu: and kill his child his eight-year-old child Stu: and then um it kind Stu: of escalates for there and he ends up being killed anyway and Stu: it's got the white savior annoying but it actually Stu: ends with them going there's five members of this secret society Stu: trying to you know um but i've only killed Stu: four and he looks at this the head of the cia unit Stu: he's like i wonder who the fifth is and then you just kind Stu: of they have this moment and he walks away and it's got slumber which Stu: is like the horror of that film is that kind of Stu: um uh thinking is pervasive in Stu: american institute is literally institutionalized and each of the the villains Stu: this is a shitty z-grade action movie but they kind of all connected to different Stu: parts of american institutions and that's what it gives it this sense of overwhelming power before.

Kim: Um we move on to meet the parents i realized Kim: why the beat of summer getting Kim: drugged again doesn't hit for Kim: me and i realized that it's like that jeremy solnia Kim: does such a good job of like ramping up Kim: escalating the level of and Kim: like degree of depravity um that the cops in particular are like um capable Kim: of like this uh the omens into manifestation is like oh shit there this is how Kim: deep it goes this is how like bad it will it it gets um and the moment where they, Kim: walk into a a woman's house drug her she awakes and realizes what's happened Kim: calls the police realizes they're the ones who did it um is so impactful that like for them to, Kim: do it again, but give her a bit more of the drug, um, in the back of a car feels Kim: like a de-escalation rather than like a deepening of, of that depravity.

Chas: Yeah.

Kim: Um, plus it's, yeah, I guess I repeat beat.

Stu: Yeah.

As you say, it makes her a damn, it's literally depriving her of agency.

Kim: Yeah.

Yeah.

Stu: You know, until she, until she gets the moment where the guy that she's able Stu: to push the guy that drugged her.

Kim: Which felt a little cheat to me, but yeah.

Chas: Still enjoyed it.

Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chas: I'm not saying it couldn't have been better, but I enjoyed it.

Kim: Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Stu: Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, I agree.

I kind of can forgive it because, oh man.

Stu: To be honest, it is a great horror sequence when she wakes up and the guy's Stu: creeping her, creeping around.

Kim: Totally.

Stu: Great, pure horror.

So it could be sore, right?

Kim: It's that sense that, yeah, the power extends so deeply.

Kim: It's so pervasive and the corruption is so pervasive that they seem to have Kim: total impunity if it were not for Terry taking justice into his own hands.

Stu: Speaking of taking justice into his own hands, meet the parents.

Kim: Meet the parents.

Excerpts: Pam is the one Greg wants to marry.

Excerpts: Just relax, honey.

I love you.

But before he can pop the question, Excerpts: he'll have to meet...

Hi, Daddy!

Excerpts: ...the parents.

What did you drive there for?

Excerpts: Oh, yeah.

It's an interesting color.

You pick it?

Oh, no.

Now the Hurst guy Excerpts: picked it.

Why?

Well, they say geniuses picked it.

Excerpts: But you didn't pick it.

Excerpts: Be nice to this one, okay?

Okay, I'll try.

Now, he will enter their home.

Excerpts: You know, Greg's in medicine, too, Larry.

Excerpts: Oh, really?

What field?

Uh, nursing.

Excerpts: Not a lot of men in your profession, are there, Greg?

And earn his way.

Excerpts: You want to hear a story?

I milked a cat once.

A cat?

Excerpts: Into the family.

You know, just...

I had no idea you could milk a cat.

Excerpts: Oh, yeah, you can milk anything with nipples.

Excerpts: I have nipples, Greg.

Could you milk me?

Dad.

At least that was the plan.

Hey, it's Brad LeBatis.

Excerpts: I just feel like this is not going well at all.

We're getting creeped, Excerpts: people.

Go off Lawrence Nightingale over here and play a little defense.

Yeah!

Excerpts: I don't know what it is, but there's just something about it that's a little Excerpts: off.

It's an antique polygraph machine.

Why don't you try that on?

Excerpts: That's okay.

Oh, come on, we'll have some fun.

Greg, my father was never in Excerpts: the rare flower business.

Don't worry, you'll enjoy this.

Excerpts: Have you ever watched pornographic videos?

No.

Excerpts: Relax, relax, the needles are jumping.

He was in the CIA for 34 years.

Excerpts: Great, yeah, I was scared of your dad back when I thought he was a florist.

I'm a patient man.

Excerpts: That's what 19 months of a Vietnamese prison camp will do to you.

Excerpts: But I will be watching you, studying your every move.

Excerpts: And I will bring you down, baby.

I will bring you down to Chinatown.

Kim: It really feels like a gear shift.

Chas: No, but it's so good.

I was really glad that our patrons voted comedy.

Kim: Yeah, great.

Chas: Because I really wanted to, like, the overlap between horror and thriller, Chas: I think they're, from an analytical conceptual purpose, they're almost identical.

Chas: You're just wanting the audience to feel different things.

Like, the...

Chas: What you're putting the protagonist or the characters through is often very Chas: similar it's just do you want the audience to feel like thrilled or exhilarated Chas: or do you want them to feel.

Kim: Like repulsed and scared i found myself writing Kim: a horror and a farce uh play Kim: um and i was struck by how similar they Kim: were that like no one in a farce is having fun no Kim: and in fact you're being incredibly cruel to them it's just Kim: that like rather than being positioned with from Kim: the perspective of the people trapped in the sword trap Kim: or whatever it is um like horror Kim: i think is unique in genres that you like the audience feels the same thing Kim: the characters are feeling it's like mirrored as opposed to laughing at them Kim: and there's that kind of difference in um which is.

Stu: Why i find cringe comedy so hard.

Kim: Yeah i can totally i.

Stu: Can handle people being brutally murdered but an awkward.

Kim: Social situation i'm.

Stu: Like i have to pause this and recover emotionally because.

Kim: The way ben stiller kisses his future mother-in-law the first time just yeah you just want to die, Kim: uh okay yeah so i i was Kim: really when i was thinking about tombs and how Kim: tombs might be applied to genres outside Kim: of horrors and thrillers um i was really keen to dig into a um a comedy uh that Kim: still like uses that structure yeah i guess a real quick recap is um ben stiller plays greg Fokker, Kim: who has the audacity to be a gentle and kind male nurse, also Jewish, Kim: and his transgression is being down bad for his wife, for his girlfriend, Pam.

Kim: Um, he wants to propose to Pam.

She's the one for him.

Kim: He's so in love with her, but he learns that not only is Pam's sister just getting Kim: engaged, that Pam's sister's, uh, Kim: fiance did, did it the right way, quote unquote, and asked her father's permission.

Kim: Very kind of traditional father.

So he thinks, okay, I'm Kim: going to hold off proposing to Pam and I'm Kim: going to go up for the weekend with Pam Kim: to see her parents for the first time ask her Kim: father's permission and um do it the right Kim: way but Greg is kind of almost like Kim: cosmically cursed uh and everything Kim: that could go wrong does go wrong uh he makes a complete ass of himself like Kim: multiple times in front of um Robert De Niro who plays Jack the father um and Kim: it doesn't help that Jack just hates his guts No one has ever been good enough for Pam.

Kim: And the cherry on top, the kind of manifestation moment is Jack...

Kim: Was in the cia for 34 years um Kim: and as a criminal profiler or Kim: something um and so he's like a human Kim: lie detector and he's on to Kim: greg um and so Kim: yeah it's just this like one disaster after another that gets Kim: to the point where the entire family including pam Kim: have turned against greg but Kim: when greg tries to fly back back home uh jack has a change of heart which we Kim: can talk about they have a classic kind of interrogation scene and then jack Kim: kind of proposes to greg of will you be my son-in-law giving him his blessing because i.

Stu: Actually quite like that beat because it's such an inversion instead of the Stu: the lover running to the airport to meet the person.

Kim: That they've seen away it's.

Stu: Actually the future father-in-law doing it so they kind of playing with the Stu: trope and so they have to kind of end it with the will you be my son.

Kim: Yeah yeah okay.

Stu: My controversial opinion to start Stu: with is i actually think the transgression is when greg lies to in terms of Stu: the immediate effect of why he he awakens the horror right and the moral lesson Stu: of this film because I think this film is actually, Stu: even though we're doing it last, it's actually weirdly the most clear in all of them.

Stu: I agree that it is connected.

He has the audacity to be, Stu: all that stuff is thematically important, but the one that kind of drives a Stu: lot of the comedy is he instinctively lies to impress his future father-in-law Stu: about the car and then not liking the cat.

Excerpts: Jake's a strictly house cat.

You can't let him outside because he also lacks Excerpts: outdoor survival skills.

That's just one of those things, isn't it, sweetheart?

Excerpts: I don't think Greg will be playing with Jinxie too much.

He hates kids.

Excerpts: Pam, I don't hate cats.

I don't, I don't hate cats.

I just happen to be more Excerpts: of a dog lover.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Excerpts: Well, it's okay if you hate cats, Greg.

No, I don't.

I don't hate cats at all.

Excerpts: That's okay.

Just be honest about it.

Stu: Most of the comedy comes from the fact that he is so desperate to impress, he can't be himself.

Stu: Yeah.

And I actually go, it's interesting.

I mean, they do mock him for being a male nurse.

Stu: Um a bit but there's this like robert Stu: de niro gives a great performance in this there's layers to that like there's Stu: part of it where he's like he's a male voice but you can kind of like when he's Stu: kind of like snaps into being really strong about it he seems to give i have Stu: a little bit more respect yeah for it jack.

Kim: Doesn't laugh at uh greg when it's Kim: revealed that greg's birth name is Gaylord and he also has like a beat that Kim: I really forgot is when they first sit down to dinner Jack reads out a poem Kim: that he's written about his uh deceased mom um and uh and it's and he cried I'm.

Excerpts: Still not happy with it as soon as it's ready then I am going to glaze it onto Excerpts: a plate and put it next to the urn.

Excerpts: Yes.

It's very special.

Excerpts: My Mother by Jack Burns.

Excerpts: You gave me life, you gave me milk, you gave me courage.

Excerpts: Your name was Angela, the angel from heaven.

Excerpts: But you were also an angel of God.

And he needed you, too.

Excerpts: Selfishly, I tried to keep you here, while the cancer ate away your organs, Excerpts: like an unstoppable rebel force.

Excerpts: But I couldn't save you, and I shall see your face.

Excerpts: Nevermore.

Nevermore.

Nevermore.

Excerpts: Until we meet in heaven.

Excerpts: Daddy that's beautiful.

Kim: I think i went into the Kim: film expecting it to be like the transgressions Kim: are all around toxic masculinity and like Kim: kind of expectations of men and i think that's all Kim: there but i think you're right stew that narratively it's like a man who lies Kim: because he's so desperate to uh um appease and and uh kind of impress his parents Kim: or future parents-in-law and a human lie detector being your father-in-law.

Chas: But Stu, I couldn't agree with you more because like I said earlier, Chas: I was surprised at how late Jack's being a human lie detector is revealed.

Chas: So all the tension in the first act is without the audience, Chas: if they're watching it for the first time, knowing that Jack knows that Greg is lying to him, right?

Chas: We are just cringing because we know Greg is lying and we can see Greg is making Chas: things worse for himself than if he would just have the confidence in himself Chas: to just be himself unapologetically.

Stu: Which we know he's capable of because I think in the era like the whole thing Stu: about him being a male nurse is he's actually confident in that decision.

Excerpts: You know Greg's in medicine too Larry.

Oh really?

What feelin'?

Nursing.

Excerpts: No really, what feelin'?

Nursing.

Excerpts: Hey, why don't I get you a chair, Greg?

Thank you.

Thanks.

Excerpts: So, you didn't want to go for the MD?

No, I actually thought about becoming Excerpts: a doctor, but I decided it wasn't for me.

Excerpts: Oh, thanks.

Just as well.

Boards are killer.

Actually, Greg aced his MCATs.

Excerpts: You serious?

No, I did okay.

Oh, he did more than okay, trust me.

Excerpts: Why did you take the test if you weren't planning on going to med school?

Excerpts: Well, I wanted to keep my options open, but in the end, nursing was just a better fit for me.

Excerpts: It gives you the freedom to work in several different areas of medicine.

Excerpts: Plus, I can focus 100% on patient care as opposed to being a doctor where you Excerpts: have to deal with the bureaucracy.

Excerpts: Oh, wasn't your friend Andy supposed to be here by now?

Yeah.

Chas: I mean, the thing that turns Jack around is that Greg had the choice to be a doctor and chose not to.

Chas: Like, it wasn't that he couldn't become a doctor, couldn't afford to become Chas: a doctor, wasn't smart enough or anything like that.

Chas: He actively chose to be a nurse over being a doctor.

And it's learning that Chas: that ultimately persuades, I think, Chas: well, it ties in with Jack's moment of choosing to go running after him.

Stu: I, coming back to the CIA thing, you say it's late, I'm scanning through it.

Stu: It's basically at 38 minutes.

Chas: It's the first act turning point.

Stu: Yeah, it's a late turning point.

The inciting incident is the transgression.

Stu: So, I do think this one is probably more aligned with Turning Points because Stu: it's that era, right?

We've got a good hook.

We go into it.

Stu: We've got the inciting incident is meeting the parents.

Stu: Is it?

Yeah.

Chas: I mean, to me, the actual full manifestation is when they're having their suits Chas: fitted and Jack's like convinced that he's smoking pot and he says to Greg.

Kim: I'm watching you and I'll take you down.

Chas: And that's the full manifestation of, of evil.

But, but the, Chas: the whole first act is sustained by, Chas: purely by uh greg's uh like getting caught on escalating lie after escalating Chas: lie there's the lie about the car there's the lie about growing up on a farm Chas: there's the lie about milking cats, Chas: i mean it's just it's it's wonderful Chas: and that is all greg and kim you Chas: said greg was cosmically unlucky but i've actually written out in the manifestation Chas: all the things that happen to greg that that go wrong like the escalation of Chas: the shit that goes wrong is actually all directly caused by greg's choices tied.

Kim: To yeah yeah.

Chas: If i can give some examples right it's not revealed at the time it's revealed Chas: in the post-credit sting but greg flushes the toilet that he's been told not Chas: to flush that floods the septic tank and floods where the wedding is going to be with shit.

Excerpts: Nice stench.

You're really on a roll there, bud.

Biting, Denny.

Excerpts: Now you listen to me.

In 20 hours, I'm having a wedding here, Excerpts: so I need my cesspool pump now.

Excerpts: Not tomorrow, now.

Dad, what's going on?

Excerpts: Oh, my God.

What's that smell?

That smell, Bob, is our shit.

Excerpts: Farker flushed the toilet in the den so the septic tank is overflowing.

Excerpts: Jack, I told you, it wasn't me.

It was Jinx.

Farker, I'm not going to tell you again.

Excerpts: Jinx cannot flush the toilet.

He's a cat, for Christ's sakes.

Excerpts: The animal doesn't even have thumbs, Farker.

Chas: Right, Greg does that.

And then he lies about not doing that.

Chas: It's only revealed later that he was lying, but it is in line with his character.

Chas: Greg, on the phone to the airport, lets the cat out, right?

Ushers him out.

He chose to do that.

Chas: Greg tries to get the cat back in, climbing up onto the roof, Chas: where he decides to smoke a cigarette, which he then tosses away casually, Chas: setting on fire the gutter, which he then kicks, which then breaks the power Chas: cord, which sets the altar on fire.

Chas: And Greg, while he is being pushed by Jack's view of him at the volleyball, Chas: the water volleyball game, Greg is trying to impress Jack by playing aggressively.

Excerpts: Here's what we got to do.

Excerpts: We're getting cream, people.

Lawrence Nightingale over here, Excerpts: play a little defense.

Larry, I missed one shot.

That was a big shot.

Excerpts: Mark, keep floating where you are.

You're doing great.

Kenny, Excerpts: take the deep shots.

Greg, nobody's expecting much out of you, Excerpts: so if I set you up with the ball, you think you can jump up and spike it?

No.

Excerpts: Yeah, that has to be pretty high, but yeah.

I bet you would, Panama Red.

Chas: But it's still Greg who spikes the ball into the bride's face.

Chas: So all these things that go wrong are arising out of Greg's inability to just Chas: be comfortable in his own skin.

Kim: Yeah.

Stu: So here's my interesting question that that prompted.

and Kim, Stu: while you're doing this thinking face, this gives you time to think.

Stu: You can slumber for a little bit.

Stu: When we went into this, we were like, Stu: jack is the monster right but what is jack's power right like what is the extent of his power, Stu: is you know i think you know we saw renick's power Stu: and then ultimately renick not only can fly and convert people Stu: he kind of builds a whole army the the corruption of the police force is systemic Stu: and they can follow you and break into it what power does jack have other than Stu: being a human lie detector and how does it escalate i actually think this may Stu: be one of those horror movies if you were to rewrite this as a horror movie Stu: it's like a jekyll and high kind of story the monster, Stu: is actually greg's kind of lack of confidence the omens are that escalating the manifestation, Stu: of it is is it's all kind of a little bit more internal because the midpoint Stu: not saying the midpoint should be the manifestation, but it is the point when we see the, um, Stu: chestburster, it's meeting the Owen Wilson character, the ex-boyfriend who's Stu: really rich, all the things, you know, it's all, all Greg's insecurities.

Excerpts: Handle an afternoon with your ex-fiance.

Okay, thank you.

Excerpts: Now for the floor that you're walking on, I chose this Bolivian Wormwood, Excerpts: I think works well in here.

Excerpts: I have the Viking range here and the twin sub-Zs.

Excerpts: Yeah, they open up right there oh oh i Excerpts: get like hidden yeah kind of blend in great are Excerpts: you a homeowner greg no no i rent Excerpts: oh so things are going real real well for you aren't they at newberg right kevin Excerpts: things have been going so great lately yeah i got in early on some wireless Excerpts: ipos and stuff just skyrocketed from there wow what about you greg what line Excerpts: of work are you in i'm in health care yeah so you You know what I'm talking about.

Excerpts: There are a lot of Benjamins being made right now with the biotech staff.

Excerpts: I don't have to tell you that.

How's your portfolio?

Excerpts: I'd say strong.

Excerpts: Quite strong.

Stu: That said, I think the mystery to be solved, what he's trying to solve here is how do I win over Jack?

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: And that's banish this insecurity, right?

Chas: I mean, you ask what power Jack has.

Jack has the power of approval over Pam.

Chas: That when we first meet Jack, they go to great lengths to show how much Pam Chas: loves and worships her dad, and they have that very sickeningly cutesy greeting.

Chas: So Greg is aware that Jack holds that power, the power to the one thing that Chas: he wants, on top of being a conservative human lie detector.

Stu: Yeah, it's just interesting because, as you say, these are Greg's choices trying to win over Jack.

Stu: Jack it's just curious that jack isn't pushing like how much is this jack's Stu: doing versus greg's insecurity.

Kim: In reading and like i went Kim: on reddit to kind of look at like people's takes Kim: on this as well and there was one really popular post Kim: that was saying that pam set greg Kim: up at every point to fail that like Kim: i i don't disagree with anything you said chas like Kim: it is like the the active like an Kim: accident but then the active decision to try and cover it Kim: up um that just gets him in deeper and deeper shit Kim: but also like in in the very first meeting with your boyfriend and your parents Kim: to say that your boyfriend doesn't like cats when it's like when your dad's Kim: pet is the most cat is the most treasured thing it it is like kind of uh creating, Kim: like unnecessary drama that Greg then stumbles into.

Chas: I mean, at the very beginning, Pam tells him not to lie about them living together.

Excerpts: Oh, and then we're not living together.

I thought you said you told them.

Well...

Chas: And she knows that he's a lie detector test.

Kim: Yeah.

Stu: She says to lie, not to not lie.

She says to lie.

Chas: Yeah, that's what I'm sorry.

That's what I meant.

That, you know, Chas: in terms of Kim's point that Pam setting him up, she knows her father's a human Chas: lie detector test five minutes, five seconds before she beats him is like, lie to him.

Kim: Yeah.

It's wild.

I don't think ultimately I agree with that reading, Kim: but what I find fascinating about the Kim: yeah the like banishment beat in Kim: this is like as we discussed earlier greg Kim: is the one who's banished he's literally like like Kim: sent off to to the airport and kind Kim: of like symbolically banished from the family and it's Kim: really unclear whether uh greg and pam Kim: are going to make it through this but then it's the two Kim: women uh jack's wife and daughter um who Kim: like pam says you know Kim: i love you dad but you can be a real asshole sometimes and dina Kim: says you only liked you know Kim: owen wilson pam's ex once they Kim: once it was clear they weren't going to get back together once they've broken Kim: up uh no one's ever been good enough for pam in your eyes and if you you know Kim: you you basically kind of like ruined this relationship for her and you're going Kim: to keep doing that and that's the kind of Like, Kim: I guess like what I'm arguing for is that both men, Kim: both Greg and Jack have some kind of demon to banish in themselves.

Chas: Absolutely.

I was going to say, I feel Jack more successfully banishes it.

Chas: Like, I don't feel that Greg has overcome his self-esteem and feels truly of value at the end.

Kim: I mean, the fact that there's a fourth or fifth movie coming along is like, Kim: oh God, there's more, there's more anxiety to excavate.

Stu: So, just to tap onto your banishment thing, Kim, Stu: obviously, I'm like, yeah, okay, it's pretty obvious that the banishment is Stu: him being sent to the airport, but when I was watching it, and I was thinking Stu: through this solve-save, Stu: he's trying to survive the weekend and save his relationship, Stu: and what he's trying to solve is what do I need to do to appease the monster?

Stu: And that, the conclusion he comes to is rescue the cat.

Stu: And so I think that is an attempt to banish the monster is to rescue the cat and lie, lie for it.

Stu: Because those who haven't seen it for a while, uh, GC, same name as Chaz's dog.

Stu: Um, clearly that was an homage, Chaz.

Kim: You just love Meet the Parents.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: Jinx, he is let out, and he sees a Himalayan cat that looks very similar at Stu: the pound, and is like, I'm going to get this.

Right?

Chas: And spray paint its tail.

Kim: Rough.

Stu: So I can be the hero, and it's played as a reveal that he's found the cat, Stu: decided to do this cat, and then he keeps on looking for it.

Stu: Right?

And then the ruse is discovered.

Kim: Wow.

Stu: And what's cool about it is that it is actually the inversion of the low point, Stu: I interpreted that as the, in this terminology that like, oh, he's got the solve.

Stu: He's worked out how to banish the monster, but it fails.

It's the, Stu: you can't actually banish the ghost.

Stu: I think woman in black kind of does the similar thing that you think they've Stu: solved the woman in black.

No, she's back.

Right.

Stu: And to me, that's how I interpreted it, that he's trying to appease Jack.

Stu: But as I said, I think what, you know, as I came to the conclusion, Stu: I'm like, I'm not even sure that Jack is the antagonist any more than it is his insecurity.

Chas: Absolutely.

I think they're both antagonists.

It's just one force increases, Chas: follows Tombs perhaps a bit more than the other.

Chas: Like, there are omens, you know, Jack's got those creepy nanny cams, Chas: surveillance cams all over the house and is interrogating Greg at various points Chas: about his drug habits and things like that.

Excerpts: You know, the whole drug thing?

Excerpts: No, I don't know.

Why don't you tell me?

Excerpts: Some people uh think that to puff the magic dragon means they're really to um Excerpts: to smoke uh smoke a marijuana cigarette, Excerpts: puffs is just the name of the boy's magical dragon right, Excerpts: are you a pothead fucker no no what no no no no no jack no i'm i'm not i i pass Excerpts: on grass all the time i mean not all the time yes or no no yes no.

Chas: So there's definitely some omens in that first section before it's revealed Chas: that he is a human lie detector and then it's.

Kim: Also kind of like red herring omens that i forgot about this whole thread but it's like when they, Kim: We see, and actually not from Greg's point of view, like Robert De Niro pour Kim: some cocktail mix down the sink and then lie to the family that they're out Kim: of that cocktail mix so that he can go to the shock.

Kim: He then doesn't buy that cocktail mix greg catches him out on that and sees Kim: him talking to some skeezy guy.

Chas: In the.

Kim: Car park and it all has a very innocuous revelation that it's about uh pam's Kim: sister and sister um and brother-in-law money for a um vacation for them but Kim: it it feels like that's going to be some cia spy stuff to.

Chas: Both greg.

Kim: And us and.

Chas: I quite.

Kim: Liked the uh i guess it suits the kind of comedy of it all that.

Chas: It feels.

Kim: Like it's almost going to be a different genre of movie and then it's like no yoink.

Chas: It's uh it's still a comedy guys it's it's a family comedy Chas: yeah yeah i mean definitely they they Chas: you know greg is an antagonist to to jack he's coming to not only to take his Chas: palm away but is systematically destroying his house one piece at a time um Chas: and and jack is an antagonist to greg and that he holds pam's heart and pam ultimately, Chas: learns to choose greg over her father's against Chas: her father's approval like she calls greg trying to reunite Chas: with him even though he's greg's been Chas: tried to banish jack and ultimately as he says to Chas: has ended up banished jack if if you Chas: look at the story as jack being the protagonist he has successfully Chas: banished greg at that point but i Chas: would uh kim you had this amazing observation about like the portrayals of masculinity Chas: owen wilson is another manifestation of greg's insecurity yeah and it's because Chas: pam and continually refers to just their their sexual chemistry that she had Chas: with owen wilson but owen wilson is not like, Chas: a buff guy he's uh he's not i don't know some people may find him pretty i wouldn't Chas: even say he's a pretty boy but he's not like he's he's woodworking and he's Chas: gentle and like uh you're only.

Stu: Saying that because he's in a very nice knit.

Chas: Yes exactly but he does talk about stocks and it's weird that he.

Kim: Has all these photos of pam like.

Chas: Framed around his house but.

Kim: He is like surprisingly I really thought they were going to do some reveal that Kim: he's actually a piece of shit and.

Chas: Pan realizes that.

Kim: And they don't I think.

Chas: It's way more sophisticated and in fact they have a moment where they feel sorry for Kevin.

Excerpts: Oh poor Kevin looks lonely, Excerpts: maybe I should ask him to dance what do you think sure I bet he could, Excerpts: whittle a private little dance floor for the two of you I'm serious I saw some Excerpts: beach wood outside it's very handy He's an extremely handy and crafty craftsman.

Excerpts: I shouldn't paint him with that brush, but come on, seriously, seriously.

Chas: So, I think all of these things, Jack and Kevin and all the shit that goes wrong, Chas: we can, it all, to my mind, ties more uniformly back to the source of antagonism Chas: being Greg's self-esteem and need to please and impress Jack and not feeling Chas: that he can do that by being himself.

Chas: I think everything in the film kind of leads back and reinforces that.

Chas: And in that way, it's more simple than Rebel Ridge or Sinners that has clear Chas: contrasting and conflicting sources of antagonism.

This has multiple sources Chas: of antagonism, but they're all aligned in what they're trying to do.

Stu: And interestingly, coming back to the solve thing, you know, Stu: just using that as a tool to think about these things, he's trying to solve Stu: the wrong problem, right?

Stu: Like, what he is trying to do, or at least he's trying to use the wrong tactic, Stu: which is like, how do I win over it?

Stu: My solution is to try and lie to him and, you know, rescue the cat.

Stu: And all he needed to do was kind of be honest, right?

Stu: And it's only when he, and that's why I think the interrogation scene works Stu: so well, is because once he starts being honest, you can kind of feel that they're, Stu: you can kind of see it in Ben Stiller's performance.

Stu: He's seen some more relaxed you can see him and jack kind of get a respect for each other.

Excerpts: Listen fucker i'm not going to tell anybody anything until you answer some questions Excerpts: unless you want to spend the next couple of years of your life in prison you Excerpts: better god damn well tell me the truth no more lies you understand no more lies Excerpts: did you do this just answer the question did you have me taken off in that airplane Excerpts: just answer the question put your hands over there that's it sick you know that, Excerpts: Is your name Gaylord Falker, yes or no?

Yes.

Are you a male nurse?

Excerpts: Yes.

Are you a pothead?

No.

Have you ever smoked pot?

Yes.

Excerpts: Did you spray paint the tail of a cat to pass him off as Mr.

Jinx?

Excerpts: Yes.

And did you do that because you desperately were seeking my approval?

Excerpts: Yes.

Because you love my daughter Pam?

Yes.

Do you want to marry her?

Excerpts: Do you want to marry her?

Excerpts: I did until i met you.

Kim: Yeah it's like what they're saying is Kim: there's like there's never been more conflict between them he Kim: says like i i love pam and Kim: i wanted to marry her until i met you like that's such a slap in the face but Kim: it's like the the the truth really pierces through because it's been lying the Kim: whole movie and it's actually like the most intimate the the two men have been, Kim: emotionally and physically.

Stu: Yeah, I mean, they're literally holding- he's holding his wrists.

Kim: It's really weirdly beautiful.

Chas: Yeah.

This film is way better than I remembered it being.

Kim: Yeah, yeah.

Chas: I don't remember it being bad, but I remembered it feeling trope-y and- Chas: almost 20 years later it actually doesn't feel tropey at all.

Kim: Yeah i was i was pleasantly surprised that Kim: um yeah how kind of like subversive Kim: it is in in certain ways like robert de niro loving his Kim: cat and crying over his mom and you know Kim: touching greg's wrists in this really like in Kim: a way that like a really shitty comedy could have like wrapped Kim: up as homoerotic or something it just isn't uh Kim: yeah um what i realized as Kim: well in terms of this masculinity stuff like i Kim: was thinking about the song that starts the movie Kim: it's the randy newman song uh and it Kim: the lyrics are like show me a man who's gentle Kim: and kind and i'll show you a loser and then Kim: what is it now show me a man who takes what he Kim: wants oh how exciting um but Kim: i realized that like songs play a big part in Kim: all three movies that at Kim: the beginning of rebel ridge the song that is Kim: listening to the lyrics are like Kim: because in my dreams it's always there the evil Kim: face that twists my mind and brings me to despair and Kim: that is like this kind of tombs-esque omnipresent evil um and then in sinners Kim: the like song that sammy writes is like i lied to you like that's his sin defying Kim: his papa the truth hurts so i lied to you.

Stu: That song from rebel ridge's iron millions the number of the beast.

Kim: Yeah yeah yeah totally um it's like it's uh yeah it's i think they like chose it extremely well.

Stu: Also, Iron Madden is great to exercise too, those pumping 16.

Stu: But yeah, you're right.

Music is really important.

Stu: I'm not saying that we should use music, but it does connect to the omen stuff Stu: and the energy and the transcendental kind of moments.

Kim: Yeah.

Particularly when it's like, you know, I know in Rebel Ridge it's diegetic, Kim: but like, I guess it kind of functions in a non-diegetic way as well.

Kim: We kind of realize that it's diegetic.

But yeah, there's this sense that like, Kim: it's a signal for the audience, but not necessarily for the characters.

Kim: It's functioning that way.

Stu: Now do we keeping us on meet the Stu: parents i'm coming back to the structural Stu: stuff because that's kind of the things that we've been looking at yeah so Stu: seeing the transgression or the beginning of the transgression sequence i'm Stu: breaking it down in real time i could be wrong is like him Stu: beginning to lie what are we seeing if Stu: we are arguing and i'm just and Stu: the thing is it doesn't have to be precise this is just tools but it's Stu: like if i'm a comedy writer interested in implying Stu: tombs to my work and i want to use it you know we've got the practical thing Stu: from rebel ridge right um we've got the the the tombs from the a and the b plot Stu: line in sinners right there's two forms of transgressions and the way they intersect Stu: and what we're looking at here that meet the, Stu: tombs is kind of connected for the character floor right totally the transgression Stu: is because Because clearly at the beginning of the film, he does think he's Stu: worthy.

Well, actually, does he think he is worthy of Pam?

Chas: Yeah.

I was going to say, I think that the very first transgression is him choosing Chas: not to propose when he hears that the right thing to do is seek the father's approval.

Chas: Greg at the end of the movie doesn't need Jack's approval anymore.

Chas: And at the beginning of the film, if he just said, I love you, Chas: I'm worthy of you, I will impress your father, please marry me, Chas: then none of the rest of it would have played out because he would have seen Chas: himself as worthy of her and not needing her father's approval.

Chas: I'm not saying it's the right way to go.

Chas: I'm not saying like it might've been a dick move if it was really important Chas: to her for him to go and talk to Jack.

Chas: So I'm not saying right or wrong, but in terms of the sources of antagonism.

Chas: I think the first transgression is him bailing out of the proposal, Chas: the elaborate proposal.

Kim: I really like that reading because I think like throughout the movie, Kim: when he starts explaining to the table of Pam's family why he chose nursing, Kim: he's got this really reasoned, intelligent explanation and they're just not listening to him.

Kim: Like there's nothing wrong with him and actually a Kim: lot of you know he he gets a pot Kim: plant for jack as a gift and it's this rare orchid because he thinks jack's Kim: a florist what a lovely thoughtful gift like he's actually like there's nothing Kim: quote-unquote wrong with him except for this fatal flaw of that you know he Kim: feels the need to lie because he doesn't believe his worthy so.

Stu: Where do we think if we even think it matters, the transition from omens to Stu: manifestations come from.

Stu: If we're using, weirdly, alien, you know, omens are all the creepy shit on the Stu: shit, the face hugger, the quarantine, Stu: and then the transition is when the omens stop, when the chestburster appears, Stu: and then that creates the manifestations from, Stu: as the baby xenophobic grows into the full Xenomorph and then the banishment sequences go, Stu: trying to kill it, realizing we just got to bail.

Where do we see those kind Stu: of omens grow and how they connect to it?

Stu: Like, how do I build, use this to help build the Antigonism so it feels like Stu: it's getting bigger and bigger?

Stu: Is there any, does this even help us here?

Chas: I don't know if you can, if I would be able to, if this is a retrospective tool Chas: or if it would actually help me generate.

Chas: But I actually think as soon as he arrives at the house, that is the omen star.

Chas: As soon as he meets Jack, like Jack challenges him about the color of the car.

Chas: He doesn't know the plant at all.

Chas: Like that's an omen of what's happening that he's failed to be impressed despite Chas: Greg going to these great lengths.

Chas: There's the, like I mentioned, the nanny cam omen.

Chas: And then I think there's also the omens of them asking Greg to say grace, Chas: even though he's Jewish.

Chas: Like, they are testing him and putting him under pressure.

Now, Chas: he's reacting to that poorly, but they are doing those things.

Kim: I think the poor reaction is key here.

I think cringe comedy trades on us having a better...

Kim: Knowledge of social cues and social mores Kim: than the protagonist in this situation that Kim: like in so many of these instances at least Kim: we'd like to think we'd handle it better that like it's Kim: not necessarily an easy situation he's being thrown into Kim: but like he doesn't have to talk about milking Kim: a cat's teats at the dinner table like that Kim: uh there are all of these things that could easily have Kim: been avoided if had he just played by Kim: social rules yeah um and so i think Kim: a lot of these omens b2b like if we're kind of trying to apply it to comedy Kim: is like what the the like ha-ha moments uh ruptures and like you know moments Kim: where greg's behavior deviates from what we think would be like this day going smoothly yeah so.

Chas: The omens would be whatever ever in terms Chas: of building escalation it's like how will the omens Chas: of what's to come of the manifestation of jack how Chas: are they going to prompt even at this early stage before he's manifested prompt Chas: greg's poor reactions i mean the the sequence where i had forgotten that the Chas: lie detector sequence in the hidden room that at that point greg still doesn't Chas: know that jack works for the cia at that point in time he still thinks he's a florist.

Kim: Who.

Chas: Just has a creepy hidden room and a lie detector test.

I mean, Chas: there's the photos of him with Clinton and other stuff.

Chas: But he still hasn't been told that Jack is a CIA spy at that point, Chas: which I'd forgotten.

I thought he was across it by that point in my memory.

Stu: I'll wrap this up into, because this is kind of moving us into wrap-up stage, Stu: but I am suddenly, like, even though I argued that rescuing the cat is kind of the banishment, Stu: If we are thinking about this as about his insecurity, that is the ultimate Stu: manifestation of his insecurity.

Kim: Yeah.

Stu: Right.

It's him taking a cat and painting its tail and trying to pass it off.

Chas: Yeah.

Kim: Yeah.

Excerpts: You spray-painted his tail to make him look like Jinxie, didn't you, Farker?

Excerpts: Greg, what's he talking about?

Hank McAtee called me a couple of hours ago and told me he found Jinxie.

Excerpts: He took his collar and put it on an imposter, then he spray-painted his tail, Excerpts: and then he tried to beat us back here so that he could get rid of the evidence.

Excerpts: Oh, no.

Please tell me that's not true, Greg.

Excerpts: It was just a temporary solution until I could find the real Jinx.

Excerpts: How could you do something like that i'm sorry Excerpts: what are you gonna tell me next that you said kevin's Excerpts: ultra on fire oh my Excerpts: god well it wasn't intentional i was Excerpts: i was chasing jinx up onto the roof i had Excerpts: a smoke and i i think i might have lit something that i don't Excerpts: know what happened he put so much goddamn lacquer on Excerpts: that thing it was an accident waiting to happen this Excerpts: is very disappointing Greg get out Excerpts: of my house fucker and take your friend with you so you lied to me about everything Excerpts: huh Greg you lied about the cat about the fire about the mcats didn't lie about Excerpts: the mcats come on Pam don't you see what's happening here your dad has totally Excerpts: turned you against me I didn't turn her against you Greg you did that to yourself.

Kim: To me, that's still him being reactive to Jack's rules, to Jack's, Kim: like, lore, I guess, you know, that he's still desperately, like, Kim: he's playing tactics and he becomes more forthright instead of just, like, Kim: accepting these embarrassing trunks to play volleyball in or whatever netball.

Chas: I forgot how cut Ben Stiller was.

Kim: Yeah, yeah.

It's like, with that body, I wouldn't be worried.

Kim: Um but yeah like that the car Kim: chase home is still like a desperate attempt to cover up it's still like um Kim: yeah to me that's him surviving the monster like attempting to survive um and Kim: and solve but uh but not not progressing to that banishment piece i.

Chas: Know i just what i what i I actually think this film, in the manifestation sequence, Chas: what it does so well, I think, is it, I've already laid out all the beats of Chas: the escalation of things going horribly wrong, but it is all prompted by Greg Chas: making a bad decision based on his insecurity.

Stu: What do you see then as the manifestation sequence?

Chas: I would say, I think, you know, Kim and I mentioned it before, Chas: I think it's the point when they're in the suit fitting.

Stu: Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean, he goes to the suit fitting, Stu: and then he meets Kevin Owen Wilson's character.

Chas: And so that's the- The Pam also hasn't told him about the best man going back to your Reddit set.

Kim: Yeah, yeah.

Stu: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kim: The Reddit's right.

Stu: I mean, it's one of those things.

There was a Letterboxd review, Stu: which was like, these people are all really fucking horrible to Greg.

Stu: And I'm like, this is true.

Kim: It's not untrue, yeah.

Stu: And then someone else is like, Greg has done a lot of dumb shit.

Chas: Yeah.

Both things can be true.

Kim: Yeah.

Chas: Right?

Like, they could have- the film would not have happened if they were Chas: not horrible to him.

And- Chas: Or if he were to have loved himself more and not reacted poorly to being treated poorly.

Stu: So, to keep us in the mothership sci-fi horror thing, it's like this binary Stu: star that's kind of being pulled into each other, which is you've got Jack as Stu: the monster, right?

And there's T-O-M-B-S for that.

Stu: But there's also Greg's insecurity is also a monster.

And you've got those two Stu: scenes work so well back to back because it's Jack literally standing over him Stu: going, I've got my eyes on you.

Stu: And then we meet Kevin, who is the literal manifestation of Jack's insecurity Stu: because he kind of has got all this wealth and power and photos of Kim and they've Stu: got this secret love language and all that stuff.

Stu: And so maybe that's part of the juice of this story is it is also running A Stu: and B plot lines through this twin source of antagonism here.

Stu: And that's why I'm struggling to unpick it because they actually just work so well together.

Stu: I mean, this film is actually a remake.

I didn't even know that until I read about it.

Kim: Yeah.

Stu: It's a remake of some indie film that no one really saw.

Kim: But from like six years prior.

Oh, wow.

It's a Moana animated to Moana.

Kim: It's like an even faster turner.

Chas: So as an end of the whole thing, we like to wrap up with key learnings.

Chas: Kim, have you learned anything?

From this exercise.

Kim: I think that I really love this idea of you can kind of reverse terms and like Kim: put yourself in the protagonist point of view and what is the horror to them?

Kim: Put yourself in the antagonist point of view, what's the horror to them?

Kim: And also I really love the idea Kim: of, I think my reading of Meet the Parents was very much like the book.

Kim: The horror is jack and more Kim: generally toxic masculinity but i really like Kim: on a narrative level the lying and Kim: the lie detector being like the diametrically opposed Kim: forces is so much cleaner and more Kim: tangible um this notion of like imagining Kim: a flaw within your Kim: main character that they have to overcome as Kim: the horror that like awakens within Kim: them due to circumstance um how Kim: like generates these omens manifests in certain Kim: ways and needs to be banished i won't Kim: speak at length about it but i watched k-pop Kim: demon hunters recently and the demons in Kim: that movie become a metaphor for the Kim: main character's shame and actually the one Kim: of the antagonists shame as well and whilst i Kim: thought that the law and the emotional things weren't Kim: aligned particularly well in the final 10 Kim: minutes they did a really good job of going like these literal demons that we Kim: need to banish are like the embodiment of this shame that we need to like kind Kim: of purge from ourselves and move forward kind of confident and yeah i think Kim: that's really helpful stew.

Stu: Yeah i I, we didn't go fully into depth, the onset discovery confirmation confrontation structure.

Stu: I do think that's really useful as a tool that you can kind of almost use to check your work in a way.

Kim: Yeah.

Stu: Because I think it's audience experience, but I do think it applies to meet the parents, right?

Stu: But you've kind of go from discovery, confirmation ends up being the second act.

Stu: And we're looking for tools to help escalate the antagonism.

Stu: I mean, I think the ways that we started realizing that there was like practical Stu: structures and that the A line and the B line follows this stuff helps solve that problem, right?

Stu: I can see myself boarding a story or perhaps us together, Chaz, Stu: and maybe us and you, Kim, like where you go tombs for this character, Stu: tombs for this character, tombs for this character.

Stu: Because I wouldn't be surprised with Sinners if you start to think of, Stu: if we would go even more in depth, you'd realize there's transgressions for Stu: each character that's kind of experienced by each character in different ways.

Stu: And I think that's really useful.

And I actually like that.

Stu: It's like, even though I've been trying to push for precise, Stu: I like the imprecision because it's just ways of going, oh, I need some scenes Stu: that are like this and this is how they evolve towards that.

Stu: And maybe there's some lines, but I don't have to worry about the turning point being here.

Stu: And I think turning points are useful, but I think sometimes also movements are useful.

Stu: Sometimes it's great in a song to have a sudden drop into your middle eight, Stu: the beat drops or whatever.

You get a sudden chord change, but sometimes it's Stu: great to have a piece of music where you're like, holy shit, Stu: I'm in a completely different part of the song.

How the hell did they do that?

Stu: At what point did we transition?

It doesn't matter.

Maybe the composer knows, but maybe they don't.

Stu: But we know that they're kind of in there.

So I think that's really cool.

Kim: Yeah, I think one of the reasons sinners feel so sophisticated and also fresh Kim: to us is because it doesn't prescribe so militantly to these thresholds that we often recognize.

Stu: And you, Ches?

Chas: I think what I really loved about this is the real focus on sources of antagonism in your story.

Chas: Because so often when I'm trying to break a story, I'm just thinking from the Chas: protagonist and sometimes from other characters' point of view.

Chas: But I liked how this was, you know, it could overlap with that kind of structure Chas: or not, but it really is just going like, how are the sources of antagonism Chas: moving and escalating in this?

Chas: And it is, I think, why these films have so much to say beyond, Chas: you know, being a good vampire movie or a good action movie or a good comedy.

Chas: And it's because everything is so aligned from these opposing forces, Chas: you know, the thesis and antithesis or antithesis.

Chas: We always get our pronunciation completely wrong.

It's fine.

Chas: So, I really like that.

And I've got, so you know, and I've referenced in the Chas: past few episodes because it's on my mind, but I've got a chamber piece with Chas: five characters, but three main ones who are all each other's antagonist.

Chas: And I think going through and just writing for each of them, Chas: what tombs is for them is actually going to really provide specificity for the Chas: actions of the other characters.

Chas: And it's going to make sure that Chas: everything feels like it's escalating for everyone in every single way.

Stu: But I would also- Stu: also suggests that you go down and go, what is something for them to survive?

Stu: What is something for them to solve?

And what is something for them to save?

Stu: I actually think, even though we haven't fully gone into it, Stu: I think that's a really useful framework for actions.

Stu: Because as we saw in Sinners, that actually also helped drive action when it Stu: was going in a quiet period.

Kim: Totally.

Stu: Go on, Kim.

Kim: Oh, you saying each, like multiple characters, not Kim: just two forces being each other's antagonists made Kim: me think of that really famous uh sartre play Kim: no exit uh where it's essentially Kim: like it's that famous phrase hell is other people you know Kim: you've got three characters in a room it's hell each of them is like perfectly Kim: chosen to be hell for another person in in the triangle uh and it's like you Kim: can have um forces of antagonism that that aren't like a dyad you can yeah have a triad.

Stu: You can have a Force Triad.

Kim: You can have a Force Diad and a Force Triad.

Stu: And I'm going to tease it now.

We've talked about it.

If you are interested Stu: in Mothership, I'll put some links to some great actual play podcasts.

Stu: But we may, as Backmatter, do an actual play of Mothership with Kim and Chaz Stu: and Mel and maybe someone else.

Stu: Because there is a module for Mothership.

Stu: So, it's a very hackable game.

And one of the kind of hacks or frameworks that Stu: someone has imposed is that you play a camera crew contracted to record footage of the monster, right?

Kim: So good.

Stu: To show the evils of the corporation or whatever it is going on.

Stu: And there's literally like your goal is like a shot list and all this stuff.

Stu: And there's something i'm like if we're gonna do this for Stu: fun it's kind of cool to have a bunch of filmmakers making something that's Stu: effectively designed to make a found footage situation so you create those moments Stu: of like don't go in there with the camera but i have to i have to get the evidence Stu: of the monster attacking anyway we'll see if it actually happens i'm sure it will i'm.

Kim: Extremely down for that.

Chas: I'm not editing that episode.

I will be like- This 10-hour recording.

Stu: No, I've got one that should be like four hours.

It would be like a couple of two-hour sessions.

Stu: But yeah, I'm going to be like adding in music and sound effects and all that stuff.

Stu: There's this Australian guy called Not Without the Bugbear who does like graphic Stu: overlays for his like three-hour recordings with maps and all that stuff.

Kim: It's pretty- Oh, damn.

Stu: The detail that people go into.

Anyway, anything else?

Chas: Just as a flag, so we have also mulled a future episode.

Chas: Kim has raised just Asian storytelling structures and...

Stu: This particular idea that I can't pronounce.

Kim: Specifically called Kishotenketsu.

It's a very, very common four-act story structure Kim: in a lot of East Asian media.

Kim: Um kishotenketsu is like the japanese term for it.

Chas: But i i don't know maybe we we just do that as its own episode because it sounds Chas: amazing but it also sounds quite niche in case people are like just wanting Chas: to make horror what i what i've been dying to do it's.

Stu: Not just about horror right kim.

Chas: Okay no.

Kim: No not at all.

Chas: Oh okay sorry then great let's do that and.

Kim: It's like it's maddening to me because it's like extremely like it's taught Kim: at i i believe like a kind of primary or.

Chas: Secondary level to like school kids uh in.

Kim: In east asia but it's like barely known in the west uh and i think it like has Kim: so many really exciting uh lessons.

Chas: But i would love to just you know do Chas: something where we watch three famous non-Western, non-English language, Chas: you know, like, could it be Anatomy of a Fall and Triple R and, Chas: I don't know, K-pop demon.

Chas: For my own value as much as anyone else, it's like there's so much dogma around Chas: this is how story is supposed to work.

Chas: And I'm like, that is only in this one storytelling tradition that has a lot Chas: of money and prevalence and cultural cachet across the world.

Chas: So, it's not to diminish it, but we're shutting ourselves off from so much potential by not just Chas: uh being open to other cultural.

Kim: Structures kim.

Stu: And hi a brief chat about this like the cultural amnesia about like even western storytelling it was.

Kim: Like sid.

Stu: Field discovered the midpoint and.

Kim: It's like yeah what the fuck yeah your point as well Kim: that like kisho tenketsu one of the things is that in the midpoint Kim: there's this rupture and you know f3 kind Kim: of departs and introduces new context in parasite it's Kim: the like tunneling down and realizing there's a bunker underneath the thing Kim: it's like what the fuck i'm watching a different movie but um sue mentioned Kim: that like yeah the mid-act twist is like not uncommon in plays like in western Kim: plays it's just like we've kind of lost that a little bit yeah in in future storytelling that's.

Chas: All thank you so much kim what.

Kim: A delight thanks so much for having me to.

Chas: Meet you thank you for persevering through this uh epic god three hour recording Chas: uh definitely going to be two episodes thanks to our patrons who bring you more Chas: DraftZero more often, in particular to Alexandra, Chas: Jen, Jesse, Krob, Lily, Chas: Malay, Paolo, Randy, Sandra, Chas: Fies, and Thomas.

And...

Chas: Thanks to you, Stu, for buying Mothership and bringing us all together.

Kim: Introducing to them.

Stu: The only reason we're doing this podcast is so I could claim Mothership against tax.

Stu: I mean, to be honest, I would actually claim TTRPG story materials anyway, Stu: but this makes it easier.

Kim: It's delightful.

And that chart at the top of the Warden's Operation Manual is amazing.

Kim: Of all the horrors, the potential transgressions, even just prompts.

Kim: If you're stuffed, I feel like so many of those could be great writing exercises.

Stu: This is literally the, it's got a chart to let you randomly roll tombs.

Stu: So it's got a column for transgressions that you roll for, you roll for omens, Stu: you roll for manifestation, you roll for the punishment.

Stu: Like what is the rule uh and then what is Stu: this slumber that's so good and then and then you roll for the theme of the Stu: story it's like to be honest i would i would use this in a screenwriting class Stu: yeah like if i was teaching a horror workshop we'll do a horror workshop and Stu: it's going to be like roll a number roll a number roll a number roll a number Stu: now work as a writer's group let's.

Kim: Build it yeah.

Stu: Let's try to see if you can come out with something about it so you're not invested Stu: in coming up with that stuff you're kind of focusing on breaking the story.

Kim: And there's no sense of, like, ownership for your, like, for someone's idea.

Kim: Like, sometimes it can be awful if you're offering your own idea up for your Kim: classmates to, like, breathe on.

Kim: But to just be like, we're rolling tight to figure this out.

Let's go.

Totally.

Chas: I think that's what, you know, not to spruik a much more podcast with much higher Chas: listenership than ours.

Chas: But, you know, John August's writer emergency cards is that just, Chas: like, pull a random card that gives a random prompt to just try and- Yeah.

Stu: Which is inspired by Brian Eno's oblique strategies, if you've ever looked that up.

Anyway.

Stu: Give me a random number, Chaz, and I will give you a theme.

Chas: 32.

Stu: 32.

Chas: Is Rust- It's the age I am in my head.

Stu: Rust, the machine and noise.

Kim: Hell yeah.

Rust as a theme is just so like evocative.

I'm like, hell yeah.

Stu: I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on Stu: this episode or anything in general.

Stu: And you can find many ways of getting in touch with us at our website at draft-zero.com.

Stu: At the website, you'll also find the show notes for this and all our other episodes.

Stu: As well as links to support us and spread the word for free via a rating and Stu: review on Apple Podcasts.

Very important for spreading the word.

Stu: Or if you think that what we do here is worth a dollar or preferably more than Stu: a dollar, then you can also find links to our Patreon page to support us getting Stu: these episodes to you quicker.

Stu: Thanks.

And thanks for listening.