Mel: They were kidnapping all of these, like, you know, young, poor people from England Mel: to take on the boats on all these trips to Shanghai because then they didn't have to pay them.

Mel: That is, off the top of my head, my understanding of where the term came from.

Stu: Ah, okay.

That sounds awful.

Chas: Okay.

Stu: Hi, I'm Stu, and I'm back.

Mel: And I'm Mel Killingsworth.

Chas: And I'm Chas Fisher, and welcome to DraftZero, a podcast where emerging filmmakers Chas: try to work out what makes great screenplays work, except today we are not doing that.

Chas: We are doing our annual treat to ourselves, which we put into the category of Chas: back matter, where we don't have any thesis or empirical analysis or examples, Chas: except we have all three of those today.

Stu: Our annual treat for ourselves.

Mel: I love a structure, love a list.

Give me some homework.

Stu: Okay.

We're going to do holiday movies.

And this started because friend of the Stu: podcast, Luke, who's extremely kind of a scheduled person, he's got a meal planner Stu: that he plans months in advance.

Stu: And he actually has historical data to make sure he's not repeating meals too Stu: much.

He's that kind of person.

Stu: And he literally put on a holiday movie and set up the decorations on the 1st of December.

Stu: He's that kind of person.

And I went, oh, you know what we should do?

we Stu: should do holiday movies the kind of films that we re-watch at the holiday period Stu: to work out and the thesis is what makes them so re-watchable and i guess then Stu: the secondary question is what makes them a holiday movie so we're going to Stu: be looking at we all picked one film so i picked kiss kiss bang bang you.

Chas: Stole my picks you because you were originally going to do die hard and then Chas: i was going to do kiss kiss bang bang i.

Mel: Just want to point out die hard kiss kiss Bang Bang and Riders of Justice, Mel: like this could have been the most podcasty list ever.

Chas: And very bro-y too.

So you've come in to save us, Mel.

Mel: You're being redundant.

Stu: Maybe next year we'll do, you know, Love Actually, The Holiday, and I'm trying to think.

Mel: First of all, all Stone Cold classics, the fact that you can't immediately pull Mel: another, though, has me a little worried.

Mel: And this is my, I'm going to spoil my thesis up front, we need to watch, Mel: as a society, more of those types of movies every Christmas.

Chas: But we haven't even said what your pick is yet, Mel.

Stu: We haven't even said what your pick is, all you said was that we stole your pick.

Chas: Writers of Justice, it's been mentioned twice.

Stu: It could have easily be Mel's pick.

Okay.

Chas: And Mel, what was your pick?

Mel: I went with It's a Wonderful Life.

So I tossed a few others around, Mel: but I distinctly wanted sort of looking, once we had several others in the mix, Mel: none of them were sort of a quote unquote traditional Christmas movie.

Mel: And so I said, you know, I really want to go that route specifically.

Mel: And I hadn't rewatched this probably in about two years.

Mel: I definitely rewatched it two years ago because I remember having a very distinct Mel: argument about it.

But yeah, I thought something traditional, something.

Mel: And also none of these movies, these movies are all sort of in somewhat different Mel: eras of film in general, which I think you can sort of tell.

Mel: So I wanted to have a traditional one that wasn't like Love Actually, Mel: which would have come out, you know, much more around the time of Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

Mel: I wanted to separate it a little more chronologically as well.

Chas: Very good.

And I just, as much as we have the thesis and as much as we want Chas: to try and wax lyrical on why these films may or may not be holiday movies and Chas: what makes them rewatchable, Chas: I just wanted to like warn our listeners that it really will be waxing lyrical.

Chas: Like we have not, we're not setting out with this.

Chas: Podcast to learn craft tools to how to write a great holiday movie but hopefully Chas: we pick up some learnings on the way.

Mel: The learnings are the friends we made along the way i.

Stu: Mean i've definitely got stuff though.

Mel: Yeah same actually and i didn't go into it with anything specific but i think Mel: in revisiting all three of them sort of close together and chatting about it Mel: a little bit i've come away with things all.

Chas: Right i'm just gonna like shit all over the theses so So I'll be the stew of this podcast.

Stu: Really?

That's what you think of me?

Chas: No, you don't do it in podcast format.

It's you as a Discord admin.

Mel: We know where to send him now.

Stu: Ah, yes.

All right.

So what makes a holiday movie for you, Chaz?

Stu: Let's get going.

I've got a feeling you're going to have a lot stricter requirements than me.

Chas: No, strangely not.

So, I mean, I Googled, you know, and came up with an article Chas: about the seven things that a holiday movie must have.

And I was just like, Chas: well, this is a lot of horseshit.

Chas: But it's useful to have a list for the purposes of discussion.

Chas: And the list was using the holiday tropes.

Chas: Atmosphere was one of them.

And I was like, fucking hell.

Anyway, Chas: family, redemption, hope, magic, and nostalgia were the seven items that they included.

Mel: They ain't never seen Bad Santa.

Chas: Definitely has atmosphere and it has a redemption.

Mel: Yes, but no redemption.

Chas: Oh, it does.

Mel: Oh, no.

I think it – okay.

Anyway.

Chas: We'll watch Bad Santa for next year.

Stu: It's going to be love, actually.

Chas: The holiday, that's it.

Chas: I did when you said, oh, let's do holiday movies.

I'm like, do you mean holiday Chas: movies or do you mean Christmas movies?

Chas: Because Christmas movies are a subset, I think, of holiday movies.

Chas: You know, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Year's movies are all...

Stu: Noir-vember movies.

Mel: My favorite holiday of the year, it lasts 30 days.

Chas: But I think we do have to kind of acknowledge our...

Chas: Cultural background here which is obviously sublimely clear to all our listeners Chas: but you know we're not talking like diwali movies or ramadan movies or you know Chas: when we say a holiday movie we're referring to judeo-christian.

Mel: Well okay okay okay hang on hang on a second because this.

Stu: Is the back matter part.

Mel: You can have holiday movies right that are about ramadan that are about easter Mel: that are about whatever which is why i do think christmas movies being this Mel: subset yeah What's fascinating is that the term Judeo-Christian, Mel: specifically outside of America, Mel: I think really is antithetical to literally Christmas movies.

Mel: Like, it is explicitly not a thing.

Mel: The U.S.

has attempted to make it a thing, like Judeo-Christian, Mel: but that term is antithetical to Christmas.

Mel: Yeah, unless I'm using it in the American attempt to build its own secondary, Mel: very political thing, I just think you can't use it in connection to any of these movies.

Stu: I'm with Mel.

Judea Christian is a very politically loaded term that serves Stu: a particular agenda that comes from an American context.

Chas: I'm more than happy to put the term to one side, but I guess we're talking generally Chas: about movies that happen to be grouped near the end of the year that often in Chas: Northern Hemisphere terms are in, you know, from fall through to winter.

Stu: Look, I think that's what's interesting about the cultural context here is, Stu: Mel, you grew up in the States, so for you, winter was cold Christmas.

Mel: There's snow.

It's dark at five.

It's cold.

Stu: You know, Chaz, did you have much of a white Christmas growing up?

Chas: That kind of- Up until I was eight.

Not white, because I was in Dorset, Chas: so it was rainy Christmas.

Stu: Whereas when I grew up, you know, my grandparents lived in a place called Foster, Stu: which was like the north coast of New South Wales.

Stu: And, you know, and our summers there are like 40 degrees in a canvas annex, Stu: you know, sweating our balls off eating prawns and the freshest oysters you'll ever find.

Stu: Because someone's just like plopped them off the oyster farm that morning, you know.

Stu: So, for me, it's got this interesting duology that my media relationship with Stu: the Christmas season is media that portrays winter, right?

Stu: And all the films that we have set are set in the Northern Hemisphere, right?

Stu: Whereas my lived experience is summer.

And so, I've got this weird kind of escapism Stu: around Christmas movies being wintry.

Yeah.

Chas: And the reason why I tried to lay that groundwork rather poorly and set off Chas: almost a political debate inadvertently is I think culturally this time of year, most- Chas: industries in the western world tend to Chas: close down families tend to get together it's a time of reflection renewal all Chas: that kind of stuff so there's other like deeper undercurrents i think that holiday Chas: movies tend to dwell in separate to any kind of uh you know tropes or traditions.

Stu: Okay i'm gonna pick up on that and i'm Stu: just gonna launch into my thesis the reason i think re-watchability is Stu: interesting when we're talking about holiday movies in general or Stu: specifically christmas movies is we're actually talking about rituals Stu: we are talking about traditions we're talking about rituals people think Stu: about watching these movies as ritualistic right and therefore to me it's about Stu: those films bringing forward emotions that you want to address in a ritual kind Stu: of way right and therefore re-watchability i think is actually the key component of a.

Stu: Christmas movie or a holiday movie that people are happy to watch Stu: it consistently yeah and i will say for me Stu: it doesn't actually have to be said at christmas i have associations Stu: that i have at christmas so for example i would actually say the lord of the Stu: rings films to me can be christmas movies because for a period of time i was Stu: literally what i was doing every boxing day was getting up and seeing the first Stu: session of lord of the rings and even when they finished the the trilogy over Stu: those three years every year they seemingly bring them back and i would go and watch them and even now, Stu: I would consider watching the entire Lord of the Rings extended editions between Stu: Christmas and New Year, right?

Stu: And look, hey, it's set in winter, but it's got a couple of other components Stu: that I think all three films have, which is it does have ensemble.

Stu: It has family, right?

It has big emotions.

Stu: It does have kind of like brings out a sense of reflection.

So I think that Stu: list that you give, like there's some things I didn't like, but that element Stu: of nostalgia, I definitely think is part of it.

Stu: Tradition is connected to nostalgia my friend Stu: friend of the podcast damien is doing his phd quite literally on nostalgia Stu: in television content so he can correct us Stu: on our understanding of nostalgia so i think there's family i think there is Stu: that sense of hope i think there is that sense of reflection right are all part Stu: of it but i also think there's probably is a secret sauce these which is what Stu: i wanted to get into it which is what makes it rewatchable why are we happy Stu: to go and turn these things on again.

Mel: And for me, I think your tradition around them makes that a Christmas tradition, Mel: but it doesn't make them Christmas movies, right?

Mel: Like people have Christmas traditions of eating, you know, prawns or of listening Mel: to a specific thing or going to the beach on Boxing Day or the test cricket or whatever.

Mel: And that is a Christmas tradition, but that doesn't make those things inherently Christmas.

Stu: Why?

Mel: Because when you're talking about a Christmas tradition, Mel: association that's very personal like your your reasoning is very personal um Mel: and to and for some people they would say well christmas doesn't have anything Mel: to do with family what are you talking about like my christmas is is me sitting Mel: alone with my cat and doing these things like oh ideally it's not inherently Mel: christmas you sitting alone.

Stu: With my cat at christmas.

Mel: That's that's um if.

Stu: You're free by the way.

Mel: Wow this is just like i'm gonna shanghai bell when they can't get away is that racist.

Chas: I was having the same.

Mel: Thoughts too is it right i think it's if i recall correctly it's something like Mel: the mexican wave where you hear the term and you think oh that's really racist Mel: and then when you look it up it is actually not unlike the term irish.

Stu: Goodbye which when you learn what the term is you're like oh that is racist.

Mel: Right like like yeah mexican wave i i Mel: could be wrong i think that neither i know that mexican wave is not i'm pretty Mel: sure that shanghai is explicitly not it's about the english sailors when they Mel: were going to shanghai and then they would take and how they would kidnap people Mel: of of all races but mostly lower class white people to to take with them to shanghai oh.

Stu: Okay so it's just a it's a flippant turn they.

Mel: Were kidnapping all of these like you know young poor people from from england Mel: to take on the boats to on all these trips to shanghai because then they didn't Mel: have to pay them that is off the top of my head my understanding where the term came from oh.

Stu: Okay that sounds awful okay so i i i'm interested in debating this with you Stu: because it's like, oh, it can be personal, but that stuff is kind of like cultural Stu: and it could be culturally within your family.

Stu: And other than it being set at the time of the year, I mean, Stu: it feels like for a lot of people that is, you know, in Fellowship of the Ring, Stu: they set out on the 25th of December, therefore, I don't know if it's true, Stu: Fellowship of the Ring is a Christmas movie.

Stu: That stuff isn't important to me, but it's seemingly the key criteria around Stu: a lot of people debating, who's the diehard Christmas movie is, it's set at Christmas.

Stu: And therefore there is the cultural aspects, Ornaments, Christmas trees, Stu: Christmas carols, all that stuff.

Stu: The external signifies of it.

Mel: I think it needs a bit more than that for Maeve to be a Christmas movie.

Stu: I think that to you is what Christmas means to you, Mel.

Stu: I think for Australians, the Australian Christmas movies, of which we have picked Stu: none, are probably picking up on more of the Australian traditions of watching Cricket on Boxing Day.

Stu: I know that's not specifically Christmas Day, but it is part of the Australian.

Mel: I just think the film needs to explicitly reference Christmas, Mel: and that's still pretty broad.

Mel: I think none of these are Christmas movies only because they take place at Christmas.

Mel: They all explicitly reference Christmas, some to more extent than others.

Chas: I'm willing to, and I don't want to segue us out of this initial discussion, Chas: but on the spectrum of is it a Christmas movie or just a movie that happens Chas: to be set at Christmas, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is...

Chas: Almost only just set at Christmas.

Mel: There's a lot of explicit Christmas references in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Mel: not just the decor, like when they go to the party, right, at Corbin Bernson's Mel: house, I forget his character's name.

Mel: It is explicitly a Christmas party.

There's a lot of explicit Christmas settings.

Mel: They reference Christmas within the plot.

Also, Michelle Monaghan running around Mel: in a sexy Santa outfit for a good part of the movie and talking about Christmas Mel: cheer.

Like there's explicit references within it.

Mel: In fact, you could argue that it's probably more of a Christmas movie than Die Mel: Hard, which I also, for the record, argue is a Christmas movie.

Chas: I think there's more Christmas references to it.

But I guess I think and this Chas: is tipping my own hand, but I don't have movies as part of my Christmas rituals.

Chas: I watch a lot of Christmas movies, but I don't rewatch the same ones.

Chas: I watch new ones every year.

So I don't have the ritual association.

Chas: So what I'm looking for in those movies Chas: isn't, I'm still looking for that connection to what I want to feel.

Chas: I'm trying to align my, you know, emotional inputs to what I'm wanting to feel at this time of year.

Chas: And so I guess from that list, I am looking for films that are more about redemption, Chas: hope, family and nostalgia, like out of that list, those ones, Chas: if those themes are pulled out of a movie, I feel a lot more Christmassy.

Mel: Do you not find redemption within Kiss Kiss Bay?

Chas: Oh, no, I do.

I do.

And we can have this debate when we get to it.

Mel: No, no, no.

I was just curious.

Stu: I was going to say, like, I do think we should say some of this discussion for the meat of the films.

Stu: But I just want to top onto the ritual thing and the rewatchability because Stu: what you're talking about is I certainly know there was a period in my life Stu: when I watched Love Actually while wrapping presents, right?

Stu: And I think for a lot of people, the rewatchability is actually connected to Stu: the fact that they can kind of do other things, that they can sit with their Stu: friends and drink wine and do, you know, Stu: Kris Kringle or whatever while the film is playing on the background and it's Stu: something they're really familiar with.

Stu: So you don't have to pay full attention to it.

Stu: And that's really not how I watched all these three films.

Stu: It was my first time watching It's a Wonderful Life, though, Stu: of course, I've seen Writers of Justice once before for our excellent Ensembles Stu: episode, a Gist Bang Bang I own, and I've seen it many times.

Stu: I saw it at the cinemas, and I could easily put it on in the background myself, but I didn't.

Stu: But there's things that I think it does that actually make it a good film in Stu: that sense of a tradition of, Can I put it on my wrapping presents?

Chas: I mean, just to just to be clear, I will rewatch Alien or Seven or The Dark Chas: Knight many more times than I will rewatch any single Christmas movie.

Chas: So I'm glad we're limiting it to Christmas movies and not rewatchability in Chas: general, because I was a bit lost there for a moment.

Chas: I'm like, I've rewatched Riders of Justice three times in the last three years.

Chas: But I think that's recency sort of like wanting to re-experience that.

Chas: I could say the same for everything, everywhere, all at once.

Chas: So it's like, what is the experience that I'm looking for in a movie at this time of year?

Chas: And that's why I was like trying to lay the cultural groundwork.

Stu: I think that's important that that kind of you're looking to tap into an emotion Stu: that you associate with the emotions of Christmas.

Stu: But I think this, I'm speculating this is true, that if you're watching, Stu: you know, if you're into hardcore Easter movies, Stu: you know, if you're into watching The Passion of the Christ Jazz every year, Stu: It's because you're looking for a particular emotional experience at that time Stu: to connect you with what you understand that period of time to be about, right?

Mel: And while I think all of these three are rewatchable, I actually think that Mel: they are rewatchable with almost no, with about somewhat and with incredibly Mel: strong connection to Christmas as a holiday, respectively.

Chas: Agreed.

Stu: Okay, so I'll say my thing about Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and then we'll go into it.

Stu: But I just want to say tapping onto the tradition, one of the things that I Stu: think makes Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang rewatchable, but also work in that context Stu: of can I be sitting there wrapping presents is this heavy use of narration and dialogue.

Stu: Like it's got some great visual comedy, but I think the fact that it is to use Stu: a term that I picked up at uni, which is like, it's a little bit of a radio play with pitches.

Stu: Like, there is this sense of you can listen to it while doing something else Stu: and still have a great time.

Chas: And very dialogue heavy as well.

Stu: But it doesn't just have to be dialogue.

I think Die Hard, you know, Stu: we're not talking about it, but like Die Hard having everyone humming Ode to Stu: Joy kind of helps that audio experience of it.

So, you don't have to be paying Stu: fully attention to the screen.

Stu: This is not true of Writers of Justice, given it's in a language I do not speak.

Stu: Anyway, kiss, kiss, bang, bang.

Excerpts: Harry was a small-time crook Oh boy Till he opened the door Oh no, Excerpts: no, we're not ready for your audition Just take him, he's ready You ready, right?

Excerpts: To a really big break Quit acting like the good guy You got your partner killed You killed him What?

Excerpts: See, this is what I'm talking about Old school method Get me Gabe Perry on the Excerpts: phone But he'll need a real cop Detective lessons tomorrow for your acting Oh Excerpts: Are you the, uh, consultant?

Excerpts: If he wants to act the part You must be...

Gay Perry?

Still gay?

Excerpts: Me?

No.

I just like the name so much, I can't get rid of it.

Excerpts: I got rid of it.

You threw it away.

Look up idiot in the dictionary.

Excerpts: You know what you'll find?

A picture of me?

No.

Excerpts: The definition of the word idiot.

Ow!

That starts with a kiss.

Excerpts: Why'd you lie to me?

It was an excuse to stay around you, so I mean, I think...

Ow!

Excerpts: Did I just cut off your finger?

Yeah.

It's on the floor.

Pick it up.

Excerpts: Pick it up.

And ends with a bang.

Where is the girl?

Excerpts: You put a live round in that gun.

Oh, yeah.

There was like an 8% chance.

Who taught you math?

Stu: I'm going to summarize Kiss Kiss Bang Bang because it's my movie that I picked.

Chas: It was my movie that you stole.

You were doing Die Hard.

Mel: This is the Secret Santa version of Back Matter.

Stu: What is it?

The bad Santa?

How do you play it?

The secret Santa where you get Stu: to steal the person before he's present?

Mel: To be honest, that's the only way I've pretty much ever played it.

All right.

Stu: I'm just going to read the Letterboxd summary because there's not one on Wikipedia.

Stu: Wikipedia has a long plot summary because Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is kind of a rom-com Stu: and a hard-boiled murder mystery with a bit of a Christmas movie thrown in.

Mel: It's on my Noir at Christmas list, which is extensive.

Stu: And that does mean it's got a convoluted plot.

So I think this summary from Stu: Letterboxd is the easiest way to summarize it if you haven't seen it before, but you really should, Stu: which is a petty thief posing as an actor, which is Robert Downey Jr., Stu: is brought to Los Angeles for an unlikely audition, and he finds himself in Stu: the middle of a murder investigation at the instigation of his high school dream Stu: girl and the detective who's been training him for his upcoming role.

Stu: And so the high school dream girl is michelle mohanahan Stu: i just bushered her name sorry and val kilmer Stu: who plays gay perry is the detective who's been training him and they're kind Stu: of being implicated in a case and then quickly the two separate places become Stu: the one case that's kind of it but robert downey jr narrates the whole thing Stu: and in fact they kind of hang the hat on it with him saying i'm the only narrator here you know by.

Excerpts: Now you may wonder how I wound up here.

Or maybe not.

Maybe you wonder how Silly Excerpts: Putty picks shit up from the comic book's point is.

I don't see another goddamn narrator, so pipe down.

Mel: We did talk about doing this for our narration because he's the omnipotent narrator.

Mel: Where is it coming from in this point of time, et cetera.

Mel: You know, we can plug that series here, but he narrates the whole thing being Mel: very meta about the whole thing.

Oh, yes, I know.

Mel: Don't we hate it when the movies do the thing where everything shows up the Mel: line, but this one time it really happened.

Mel: So he's very meta and very cognizant of the tropes that are being played with Mel: and very self-aware of the whole time i.

Stu: Mean that moment where he's got the scene going this scene's kind of bullshit.

Excerpts: I apologize that is a terrible scene it's like why was that in the movie gee Excerpts: you think maybe it'll come back later maybe i hate that a tv's on talking about Excerpts: the new power plant hmm wonder where the climax will happen or that shot of the, Excerpts: Sorry.

Stu: And that scene is in Portoleta, and he is right that that scene is written a little bit twee.

Stu: When you're watching it, you're like, oh, this scene's a little bit twee.

Stu: And then you're like, ah, that's why, because they're trying to make that connection.

Mel: Lampshade.

Stu: They're lampshading it because they actually kind of have to because the plot is convoluted.

Stu: And it is very dealing with noir tropes.

You know, it's got a little incest in there, sexual abuse.

Stu: Like, there's a lot of stuff in this that is heavy, and it's heavy in the same Stu: way the writers of justice is heavy.

They both have references to sexual assault Stu: and obviously a lot of violence.

Stu: I mean, Die Hard is a lot of violence too.

Mel: Yeah, so Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and obviously the chapter titles are all Chandler books.

Mel: And so it's doing things in a Chandler tradition, but also in the way that a Mel: lot of Chandler's films were adapted into books, including the voiceover.

Mel: And Chandler's books deal with all of those typical noir things.

Mel: And so, so does the film, you know, with being betrayed and with murder and Mel: with, you know, sex and the stymieing thereof and all of those sorts of things are in here as well.

Stu: So, my question, I'm just going to start with the, why do I find this film rewatchable, right?

Stu: And I think there's a couple of elements.

I actually think the convoluted plot Stu: makes it rewatchable because I'm always going, oh, I forgot that happened.

Chas: I agree.

Mel: 100%.

Stu: I had that same experience with Die Hard.

There's actually a lot going on Die Hard.

Stu: And when I rewatch it at Christmas, I'm always like, oh yeah, Stu: I forgot how tight the mechanics of this plot are and how much complexity is in there.

Stu: I think this has got, because it's a mystery, has more complexity in there.

Stu: And there's a little bit more of those Easter eggs, like as you say, Stu: the Raymond Chandler chapter titles.

Stu: But there's even stuff earlier on when Michelle's character Harmony is like Stu: at this Christmas party.

Stu: Such birthday?

Is it a birthday party or is it a Christmas party?

Mel: Christmas party.

Stu: Okay.

Chas: I thought it was for the daughter.

Stu: Yeah.

Mel: There's Christmas trees and tinsel and all that sort of stuff around.

Mel: And then there's the suggestion that he threw the party because they've just reconnected.

Mel: And so the idea was like, and they're all industry people.

They're not her friends.

Mel: They're all industry people.

So like the party is for her, but it's not really.

Mel: It was just the party he was planning on throwing anyway.

And she happens to be there.

Stu: Yeah.

And so all that stuff's in there.

I mean, even when I put it on last night, Stu: I forgot how great the cold open was.

And so to remind you, it starts off these Stu: kids at like a country fair and it's a kid in a box and a young like eight-year-old.

Stu: It's like, oh, I'm going to, for my next amazing trick, I'm going to cut this girl in half.

Excerpts: And now for my shocking finale.

Not for the squeamish.

Excerpts: Not for the faint of heart.

Mel: With a chainsaw.

Not just a saw, a chainsaw.

Stu: And they start cutting it and she screams and screams and screams and everyone Stu: panics and the guy with the chainsaw's trying to get it out of there and it Stu: ends with the button and the whole thing is.

Excerpts: I'm going to be in the app.

Stu: And it's such a great cold opening.

And even though if I've forgotten it.

Mel: The button is actually, yes, she says that.

But the button is that as soon as Mel: her dad realizes that that's what happened, he rears back and hits her in public in front of everyone.

Stu: I think it actually frees frames before it comes.

Mel: He swings and it cuts before he connects.

But it's quite clear that he's slapped her.

Stu: Yeah.

And that's setting up the fact that she ran away at 16.

Stu: And this is what I mean about the complexities that you remind yourself of as you watch it.

Stu: So that's one of the reasons I Stu: watch it.

Two, I love the chemistry between Harmony, Gay Perry, and Harry.

Stu: Their dynamic is amazing.

Gay Perry is a fantastic character, Stu: right?

Val Kimmer gives a great performance.

He's dry.

Stu: An American who's sarcastic.

You forget how refreshing that is.

Chas: You mean successfully sarcastic.

Stu: Yes.

Mel: Ouch.

Good God.

Stu: When you're successfully sarcastic, Mel, we claim you as Australian.

Stu: And when Paul is sarcastic, we, like, remind you that you're a dirty foreigner.

Mel: Fair.

Stu: True.

So those big elements.

And I think the fact that we mentioned it earlier.

Stu: So there's this sequence where Gay Perry jumps in front of Harry, Stu: takes some bullets, right?

Stu: And he lays down.

And we think he's going to open his thing, Stu: like, and reveal he's wearing a bulletproof vest.

Stu: After all, I think that's a beat in Lethal Weapon, which Shane Black also wrote.

Stu: And here it's like, no, he kind of gives him to mouth to mouth.

Stu: And he's got blood coming out.

And you're like, oh, my God.

Stu: You know?

And you never come back to Gay Perry.

And then there's a sequence Stu: at the end in the epilogue where you reveal that he's alive.

Stu: And they kind of, again, lampshade or hang the hat on the fact that he's alive.

Stu: We can bring everyone back.

But I think that's part of the success is that this Stu: is a film that deals with a lot of dark shit and finds a hopeful ending.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: And I think, to me, in some ways, maybe the reason that I like this and I like Stu: Writers of Justice is, particularly as I've grown older, I'm like, Stu: like i'm a little bit cynical enough that that Stu: twee christmas movies can just read as Stu: insincere whereas what stuff that's darker but has hope is a little bit i mean Stu: not that my life is you know murder and incest and anything any of that stuff Stu: in it but it reminds me that there could be hope during dark times and i i think Stu: that's part of what makes it work for me great visual storytelling a lot of surprising moments.

Stu: The comedy is so good that even some of those gags, even if you know what they Stu: are, they're just done so well that you're like, it doesn't matter.

Stu: Even though they're kind of, the film talks about like, oh, once you've heard Stu: the joke, it stops being funny the second time.

Stu: But I don't think that's true with Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

Like the physical humor, Stu: Continues to be funny because it's so well executed that you admire the execution.

Stu: The dialogue is really clever.

The playfulness of the form.

All that stuff makes Stu: it really rewatchable for me.

Stu: And the Christmas elements are very consistent.

I actually think that in some Stu: ways this feels more Christmassy than Writers of Justice.

Stu: So, yeah, that's the elements that I would say has the ensemble.

Stu: It doesn't have a nostalgia element to it, but I think the film is tapping into nostalgia.

Stu: It's about the dream girl and accepting the fact Stu: that people are fucked up and all those kinds of things Stu: i think it's interesting to remember this is a Stu: robert danny jr before he was iron man before he was Stu: redeemed that him being a fuck up was actually part of why he was in this role Stu: you know the film is interesting because it does have this kind of 2000s slight Stu: homophobia that actually feels quite progressive what struck me on this rewatch Stu: wasn't the kind of homophobia in there because I'm like, ah, Stu: it feels kind of the era, right?

Stu: It was actually the kind of like misogyny that is connected to hard-boiled stuff.

Stu: Like all that kind of stuff just feels a little bit, still feels a little bit icky for me.

Mel: The thing with noir is like noir's history of racism and homophobia and misogyny Mel: are so thick that if you're playing in that pool, you're going to have elements of that in it.

Mel: And so I think the big difference being characters being it versus the story being it, Mel: like you're not going to get people who are nasty fuck-ups who don't use some Mel: of the terms that they use whether or not you know you think that that's uh Mel: something that should be in movies is very different of saying like oh this Mel: film's endorsing that no these characters are simply who they are like none Mel: of these are good people yeah.

Stu: I mean that and that works and i think harry having the world view that he has Stu: is consistent and the film actually gives him shit for it which is there's That Stu: moment he gives the whole speech about like the whole, it's like they shook Stu: America by the East Coast and all the normal girls.

Stu: Who he hates, hates Harry right now.

And everyone puts up their hand because Stu: you're like, yeah, he's kind of a dick.

Stu: And it does feel like, so it does feel like it's coming from character rather Stu: than a mouthpiece of the filmmaker.

Stu: I mean, Shane Black wrote and directed it.

And that is kind of part of his, Stu: I call it smarm core.

He's kind of got like all his stuff is kind of smarmy.

Stu: He's just part of the aesthetic, you know, femme fatales, all of them.

Stu: The fact that Harry's saying a lot of incel talking points, you know, Stu: 15 years before that became a thing is just kind of interesting.

Stu: And I've done a lot of talking.

Why do other people rewatch this film?

Mel: I mean, I agree with you.

For me, I do think that Kiss Kiss Bang Bang is a Christmas Mel: movie because of all of the Christmas signposts it has.

Mel: But what makes it rewatchable is not the Christmas elements.

Mel: Like that's sort of what makes it rewatchable are all of the structure.

Mel: The fact that like a lot of good noir mysteries, you forget exactly how things get solved.

Mel: You might remember like who the bad guy is, but you don't remember how Mel: they figure it out or what leads them to that or how they get out Mel: of certain jams and then you're watching it and you go oh of Mel: course like this is how but and then all of that is Mel: driven then by the chemistry of the the three Mel: leads and you know you've got the the noir-ish neo-noir Mel: you know snappy dialogue and i'm also a sucker for Mel: you know movies that are about movie making which this one Mel: is both explicitly because you know they're in Mel: hollywood he's only been brought out there you know because colin Mel: Farrell was asking too much money so they they brought him out to Mel: test blah blah blah so it's about making movies that way but it's Mel: also meta about making movies the way that he pauses on a frame frame and you Mel: see the old school like vcr roles while he's talking about oh this this scene Mel: and feels a little chintzy or later when he says oh yeah do you think the bringing Mel: up a power plant is going to be important later like all of the the meta ways Mel: it's about movie making oh it makes it very rewatchable yeah.

Stu: And they talk about like how they's got to have a big ending i mean it's almost Stu: adaptation in that style where they talk about the ending needing him to need Stu: to be tortured and then he kills like 16 guys and he gets tortured and i'm pretty Stu: sure he kills 16 guys i haven't counted but i kind of do stuff when they bring Stu: it up and i start i mean this is part of the rewatchable element of it i.

Mel: Start counting.

Stu: And then i actually get caught up in the action i've never sat down and gone does he kill 16 guys.

Mel: I was watching the derringer i was like oh yes i Mel: remember this comes up later how exactly i don't Mel: remember and then you get to that scene oh this is how and then Mel: you're watching Val Kilmer's performance of how he's Mel: you know luring him in and it teases it out all of that sort of stuff and like Mel: this is Shane Black's first directing you know he'd written a bunch of movies Mel: before this and so he perfected a lot of the the swarm core as Sue says and Mel: so I think the rewatch ability comes from all of those things that he really Mel: honed in in scripts afterwards.

Mel: Happens to be in my opinion and not jazz as a christmas movie but the rewatchability Mel: is not tied to that in any way shape or form other than again the michelle monigan Mel: in the you know skimpy santa suit which your knowledge may vary yeah.

Stu: And i think it does have a few christmas carols in there but not.

Mel: It does no it has christmas music it has uh in fact the score has a lot of christmas Mel: carol motifs that run yeah yeah Mel: um there's a lot of christmas decoration there's of course um i I mean.

Stu: The plot engine is kicked off by the fact that Harry is robbing a toy store Stu: to get his nephew or niece.

Mel: Never see the kid.

Stu: Never see the kid, but to get them a Christmas present.

Right.

Stu: And then that ends up him being chased by police and he runs into an audition.

Stu: And that's some of the filmmaking tongue in cheek where the cop is like, oh, good luck.

Stu: I love that performance.

It's like a one-line, one of those one-line scenes Stu: that you're like, oh, there's a lot in that little beat where you're like, Stu: the cop's like, ooh, I probably wanted to be an actor too.

Stu: And now I'm a cop in LA, you know, the city of broken dreams kind of stuff, Stu: which is why I think Christmas is a setting that really works for this because Stu: it is about the hope and the kind of like the surface levelness of Christmas Stu: and the superficiality of LA and all that kind of stuff connects to me.

Stu: Like it suits and the neon, like they bring out all the neon signage and all Stu: that kind of stuff really helps the neo-noir mood and the kind of, Stu: the way it's kind of connected to the superficiality of Los Angeles and the Stu: way that Christmas is treated superficially, like all these Christmas parties and stuff.

Stu: None of them have anything to do with, you know, the meaning of Christmas.

Stu: It's just an excuse for a party and for people to be semi-naked and dressed Stu: as reindeers or whatever the fuck they are in that little performance stuff, Stu: right?

I think it's thematically woven in there, but yeah, it's not about the Stu: quote-unquote meaning of Christmas.

Stu: In fact, it's about the commercialization of it.

Go on.

Chas: I was actually going to push back slightly on both of you, even though I agree with both of you, Chas: in that I do think what is rewatchable about it is not necessarily the holiday aspects of it.

Chas: And I think while it signposts Christmas, possibly...

Chas: More than any of the three films that we're watching, because a lot of It's Chas: a Wonderful Life doesn't take place at Christmas.

It's only the final.

Stu: No, but it opens with it.

So, it is definitely bookended.

It opens on Christmas Eve.

Chas: I'm trying to establish a metric here, because my feeling is that Writers of Chas: Justice is way more of a Christmas movie than Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Chas: and more than Die Hard, and way more than Iron Man 3, which also I think commits Chas: this particular crime out of Shane Black's over the most of just being like Chas: I'm going to set this at Christmas because I like Christmas shit not that it had.

Mel: Any impact the nice guys makes the it's not set at Christmas until the end and Mel: then he sets it explicitly at Christmas to still make his movie the Christmas Mel: movie so I think maybe one beats it out but.

Chas: I agree with everything that you guys have said that the the complexity of the Chas: plot every time I rewatch it it keeps me engaged because I know who the baddie Chas: is and I know how everyone ends up at the end but I every time I rewatch I've Chas: got no idea how they get it every time that he pees on the corpse I'm like oh fuck.

Mel: Yeah he pees on the corpse like.

Chas: The the humor is so transgressive and the one thing that got me kind of through Chas: the the homophobia at Gay Perry is that they then call out that he manages to Chas: get out of a situation because of the Derringer it's like homophobes never search for his derringer.

Mel: They're afraid of being called a fag right that's the well right Mel: you have the reclaiming of the language but it is language that especially then Mel: you know 20 years ago would have been regularly used and i think homophobia Mel: is a strong term for the movie i think the only person who explicitly uh exhibits Mel: homophobia is that one guy uh that he's taunting yeah in the torture scene i.

Chas: Mean harry has a very visceral reaction to being kissed by.

Mel: To being kissed against his will by somebody that Mel: he's like obviously you have the Mel: oh but it's also i think it's a lot Mel: more than that he also has that a similar reaction to waking up in bed with Mel: um with harmony's friend you know he really does he freaks out and like gets Mel: out of bed and then it's like oh my god i can't believe i i kissed the ugly Mel: one i mean the like not as attractive you know So, I think, Mel: yes, obviously that's an element, but it's certainly not explicitly deemed.

Stu: It's pretty interesting to me that Val Kilmer, for a quote-unquote straight Stu: man, has played two absolute gay icons.

Stu: Him and Iceman.

Actually, maybe more.

Mel: I was going to say, I think there's more, but yeah, absolutely.

Stu: Mad Meldigan from Willow.

Mel: Good for him.

Stu: Yeah.

Mel: Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Stu: Matt Paddington is in a dress for most of Willow.

Chas: I was going to come back to this.

I think that- Chas: I mean, the first half of the movie, I'd completely forgotten that this was Chas: set at Christmas.

Like, they really lean into the L.A.

Chas: Sort of L.A.

and winter vibe.

And then when someone, I think when Perry first Chas: tries to get rid of Harry, says Merry Christmas as he's saying goodbye, Chas: I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right.

This is at Christmas.

Chas: And that was before the party with the Santa hats and performance artists.

Chas: So I think the film is going to great lengths to remind us that it's set at Christmas throughout.

Chas: Um but the ending of the film is what more than die hard and more than iron Chas: man 3 and i'm comparing to other shane black films that are set at christmas but it's the long.

Mel: Kiss goodnight also set at.

Chas: Christmas yep there you go except.

Stu: And that i actually was going oh long kiss.

Chas: Goodnight i want to rewatch that yeah.

Mel: Yeah yeah also very explicitly set at christmas in a way in the same way this is and very rewatchable.

Chas: But this is about three individual characters who need Chas: redemption and achieve it i think Chas: possibly gay perry less than harmony and harry but they also find a family in Chas: each other in the three of them they're three very lonely isolated people who Chas: through their various wounds come together through this story so i think that Chas: how the ending is brought together, Chas: very much leans into very Christmas themes that these guys discover the family Chas: they need and through each other can lead more wholesome, fruitful lives.

Mel: I don't think anyone's going to lead a wholesome life.

Chas: No, no.

Mel: Yeah.

Chas: Their version of that, I guess.

Fulfilling?

Stu: There is a sense of redemption.

Stu: It's an interesting choice that it's Gabe Perry that confronts Harmony's father, right?

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: I just think that's an interesting choice.

I'm not sure that he's the spirit Stu: of vengeance, but in a way, it kind of works because Harry probably would have Stu: just killed him, I think, at this point.

Mel: Harry has a personal reason for doing it right, though, and I think Gabe Perry doing it shows.

Mel: I think it's two things.

I'd venture a guess that there, especially, Mel: again, 20 years ago, that when you have this sort of character who is clearly Mel: a bit of a murderous bastard, admits that he is that, you know, Mel: like, that that's his job.

Mel: He's like, I'm not a nice guy, I do all these things, and is gay.

Mel: That there is a little bit of the going out of their way to show, Mel: because a lot of tropes in media and as well as very much in real life are when Mel: you are talking about child abuse and specifically child sexual abuse, Mel: that is a homophobic trope.

Mel: And so when you have an explicitly gay character who's not a good guy, Mel: and you go out of your way to say, hey, just because he's gay does not mean Mel: that he's okay with child abuse.

Mel: I actually think that there's a little bit of a statement there in who they're Mel: choosing to mete out that justice, which I do appreciate.

Stu: Yeah, no, particularly in the American context, because it does feel like that is a correlation.

Mel: It's a huge correlation.

Stu: All right, speaking of child sexism, no, we're not going to use that as the Stu: transition to Riders of Justice.

Mel: No, we aren't.

And I do find it interesting that 20 years later, Mel: we find films that can use that trope without worrying that it is then an explicitly Mel: homosexual thing, which Riders of Justice does, which I think fascinating.

Stu: Yeah.

So speaking of getting justice.

Yes!

Excerpts: Why do you say that it wasn't an Ulyk?

He's here.

He's on the station seconds before Ulykken came.

Excerpts: Kurt, Tandem, Olesen.

He's the president of the Riders of Justice.

It was an attentat.

Excerpts: First.

No, it's not.

Chas: Um all right so this is mine so i guess i have to summarize writers of justice Chas: even though podcast listeners i mean mel and i try to evangelize this movie because, Chas: as much as it feels like a fairly obscure danish movie it is just so freaking entertaining, Chas: while also being to my mind a sublime christmas movie and i'm going to start Chas: with why i think it's a holiday movie first and then go into rewatchability Chas: but the it's got much less Christmas trappings than then Kiss Kiss Bang Bang Chas: despite being set in a Scandinavian winter, Chas: there's basically there's the book ending which is about I didn't realize the Chas: grandfather was a priest until this my third rewatch that I noticed he's actually Chas: in robes and has an enormous crucifix I.

Stu: Just assumed that they were going for that as a vibe as opposed to because you Stu: know how like Neo in the sequels as a coat that's cut in the same way.

Chas: So the plot is kicked off by a Christmas present theft and the movie's book ended that way.

Chas: And there's very little reference to Christmas for the rest of the movie until the end.

Chas: And similarly to Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, like the comparisons keep coming, Chas: there's characters who you assumed were dead that actually survive and live.

Chas: So in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Val Kilmer's Gabe Harry, we assume that character's Chas: dead and then they have to hang a hat on the fact that he's survived this.

Chas: And then Writers of Justice, which I probably should summarize before I talk Chas: about the fucking ending, but ends in a Christmas scene with the main character Chas: who we literally saw die a cinema death.

Chas: Like he was holding his daughter and saying he's cold and then like goes silent and keels over.

Chas: And then next time we see him he's wearing a christmas Chas: jumper um but i'll Chas: talk about why i love that in a sec but basically um in Chas: writers of justice it's about two groups of Chas: people both impacted by a train accident you've Chas: got um mads mickelson's uh Chas: family his his wife is killed in the train Chas: accident and his daughter was on the train and and Chas: uh saw her mother die and separately you've Chas: got Otto who is a I guess Chas: a statistician certainly an academic trying to create an algorithm that can Chas: predict the future and then you have Otto's associated colleagues who've worked Chas: on this algorithm and Otto his colleagues are Lennart and Emmentaler.

Chas: And those two groups are brought together by Otto's use of statistical analysis Chas: to determine that the train accident could not possibly have been an accident.

Chas: And then Mads Mikkelsen being a definitely Chas: suffering uh uh active soldier Chas: uh then go and use the um the Chas: excuse that the train accident was instead Chas: a murder attempt on someone testifying against the Chas: bikey gang riders of justice to try and take out Chas: said riders of justice and the plot kind Chas: of all unfurls from that and it's Chas: about those two groups sort of coming together and Chas: uh and living together um and Chas: becoming a family which is why it's a freaking christmas movie is that every Chas: single character and every single storyline in this movie is about people experiencing Chas: intense trauma and getting over that trauma or not getting over that trauma Chas: but dealing with that trauma by bringing people closer together um yeah.

Mel: I think this this is about i think the dark side Mel: of christmas that nobody really it's not the Mel: first thing you talk about right at Christmas tidings of Mel: comfort and joy and all of these things but it's it's about Mel: like every if you live long enough and at Mel: least you know to adulthood you are also going to have sad Mel: connotations to holidays you're going to have people that are no longer with Mel: you you are going to have um you know inability to connect with certain members Mel: of your family for whatever reason people who've who've died who might have Mel: loved Christmas um you're going to have be unable able to be with certain people for Christmas.

Mel: And so Christmas inherently has grief and loss and brings those feelings to Mel: the surface as much as it brings happiness and joy and togetherness as well.

Mel: They end up mixed together.

Mel: And so this film explicitly is about those, about the loss and about that, Mel: but also about how fanfoundly, and you have the character whose name, who is known for a.

Mel: Goes out of his way to try to make this dinner, to try to make everybody happy, Mel: you know, which is a very Christmas thing, you know, with food and celebratory.

Mel: You know, it'll be okay at least for an hour or two while we share a meal and do all these things.

Mel: And you have the explicit, you know, gift giving, you know, that happens at Mel: the end where they've essentially, Mel: okay, well, we have this family now, we're going to do the Christmas thing of Mel: unwrapping our presents and all of that sort of stuff.

Mel: And you have a little bit of a Gift of the Magi sort of situation, Mel: you know, and then again, circling back around to the frame tale with the bike Mel: and it being stolen and how all of these things that we do to and for each other Mel: at the holidays have an inestimable ripple effect.

Mel: Which is the film is very philosophical and starts going to all of these philosophies Mel: and so but that ripple effect that sort of intensifies during the holidays I Mel: think is really what it's fascinated by.

Chas: And I was like, when I was looking through that list of things that a proper Chas: Christmas movie has magic, Chas: I'm like, this film does have its own sort of scientific version of magic, Chas: which is that study of statistical analysis and that sort of butterfly effect Chas: and the impact that we can all have on each other.

Chas: And it was only on this, my third rewatch When I finally got the huge nature Chas: of the coincidence That actually kicks the plot off in earnest, Chas: Which is, so they're using facial recognition To look at this guy who threw Chas: away a very expensive sandwich, Chas: Because Otto, the statistician, is convinced That because that guy threw away Chas: the sandwich That was suspicious And a juice, right?

Mel: And a juice, yeah.

Chas: Yeah I mean, it's like 15 euro Yeah.

Stu: Who threw us away 14- I mean, I get that energy.

I'm like, I'm eating this fucking Stu: meal, it's terrible, but, you know, cost 14 euro.

Chas: So, because they do facial recognition to their experts' level of acceptability, Chas: which was a 99.12% acceptability, and nothing less than that would have been a valid result.

Chas: And they find a guy who's in Egypt and Chas: they're like well can we lower the threshold and they Chas: lower it to 95% and they find someone who is the spitting image of the guy who Chas: throws away the sandwich to the point that Otto is convinced that it's him and Chas: this was the bit of coincidence that I on neither of my previous two re-watches Chas: had got how much of a coincidence it was, Chas: he was a an electrical engineer specializing in trains who happened to be the Chas: brother of the bikey gang yeah the gang leader and so and it turns out that Chas: that guy it was the person from egypt that was the person who was on the train Chas: is the whole kind of gag at the end or not a gag but it, Chas: I mean, I laughed.

Stu: Oh, no, because it's the whole, like, their sandwiches are terrible.

Stu: I couldn't even finish them.

Chas: I had to go to McDonald's.

Mel: It's very Scandinavian humor.

It's funny, but it's dark.

Chas: But it was only on my rewatch when they were, like, laying out the evidence as to who that guy was.

Chas: I'm like, well, that is, like, the biggest possible coincidence.

Chas: But it's actually, like, works thematically in this film because it's about Chas: we don't have all the data to recognize the patterns in our lives such that we can control it.

Chas: And we actually just sort of have to roll with the random vibe that is out there.

Mel: Yeah, the idea that we have this incredible amount of grief and we just want Mel: to find an answer for why, and sometimes the answer is there is no why.

Mel: It's kind of heavy for a Christmas movie.

Chas: Yeah, very heavy.

I mean, this is going towards my sensibilities.

Mel: To be honest, all three of these are quite heavy.

Chas: Like, this is a very dark film, but it makes me laugh so much, right?

Chas: And this is, you know, maybe I'm sick in the head somewhere, but the, you know.

Stu: The- Why is that phrase as a question, Jazz?

Chas: But that end moment, I really loved actually that, you know, Chas: in Val Kilmer coming back at Kiss Kiss Bang Bang did feel to me enough of a Chas: cheat that they had to hang the hat on it.

Chas: But it then gave me that hope and sense of family and redemption coming out of the movie.

Chas: But in this, I felt it was so important for Mads' Chas: character Marcus to actually survive, because it was like the sort of how I Chas: feel robbed in episode nine of Kylo Ren getting to die and then not having to answer.

Stu: That's you stealing from me.

Chas: I'm stealing your observation.

You've made it on the podcast before.

Chas: But, like, Marcus dying at that point would have felt the same way.

Like- Chas: Where he was vindicated for his life of violence and got to die a self-sacrificial Chas: death and not actually have to address the shit that he did wrong or all of that.

Chas: And so, him being at that Christmas scene looked like torture for him, Chas: like, with all these nut jobs around him.

Chas: But they're also his family and he is embracing the torture of their being in his life.

Chas: And to me it was a much more necessary not just necessary christmas ending but Chas: necessary ending to this film that marcus actually has to address the shit that's Chas: going on inside his head so that he can be a good father to mathilde and yeah Chas: a good member of this new newly created family so.

Stu: Interestingly i don't think the wikipedia summary is correct but they the wikipedia Stu: summary he has, a few months later at Christmas, the entire group joins to celebrate an open presence.

Stu: And I'm like, a few months later?

Chas: Emmentaler still has the head bandage on.

It's like days later.

Stu: It does feel like it's days later because there's a reference to the bike at Stu: the beginning where it's like, oh, there's still a few days until Christmas.

Stu: We might be able to get you the color.

Mel: Like that's why they're going into town, like to try to get the bike before Christmas.

Chas: I mean, it does seem slightly absurd that Marcus has got out of hospital, Chas: given the number of bullet wounds he had.

Mel: But that's the magic part, right?

Like, that's the-

Stu: You say it feels different from Gay Perry.

I mean, it feels thematically different Stu: from Gay Perry surviving, but it feels just as magical.

Stu: It feels just as movie magic to be like, he survives that and Gay Perry survives his bullets.

Stu: But you are right about the magic element being an important part of it and Stu: this feeling like the algorithm or the coincidences because I guess in a way Stu: magic is just coincidence.

Chas: Well, what is it magic is just what we talk technology we don't understand yet?

What's that?

Stu: Oh, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Stu: Or the version that I like, which is any significantly advanced incompetence Stu: is indistinguishable from malice.

Chas: I also quote that one a lot.

I steal a lot of steuisms.

Stu: Yeah.

That one about malice is particularly relevant to current politics.

Stu: Are they incompetent or are they malicious?

Does it actually fucking matter Stu: in practice?

And the answer is no.

Chas: So, I mean, do either of you disagree with my view that writers of justice, Chas: while having less atmosphere, less Christmas trappings on it- I mean.

Stu: It looks freaking cold.

and having been to Estonia in the middle of December, it's freaking cold.

Stu: So, yeah, I associate that with, I think it's got the Christmas atmosphere in that sense.

Chas: But do you think it's more or less of a Christmas movie than Kiss Kiss Bang Bang?

Mel: Look, I'm not going to sit here and percentage-wise, I'm a very few things in my binary.

Mel: Is it a Christmas movie or is it not?

It's a binary.

Mel: Yes or no?

I do think it's a Christmas movie.

for me what makes it more rewatchable Mel: though is more of the Christmas elements like obviously there's a lot of other Mel: things that make it rewatchable no movie is rewatchable if it has bad dialogue Mel: so saying it has great dialogue is but it's not like for me I remember the plot, Mel: um here uh Stu I'm not saying whether it's a good movie or a bad movie or whatever Mel: just that yeah that that's a separate argument again but Riders of Justice is Mel: the Christmas Christmas tie-ins, Mel: the thematic elements of, again, coming together and working through grief and Mel: using these, you know, rituals and a holiday and things like that to, Mel: more strongly bond with and forge new memories with, you know, Mel: your found family is more explicitly Christmas than what makes Kiss Kiss Bang Mel: Bang rewatchable.

Oh, yeah.

Stu: I mean, I, you know, a family tradition for me is that we, you know, Stu: because we're spread over the country, we fly into my parents' place and we spend, as a family- Stu: a day two days three days cooking all of Stu: us sharing it and and we've actually got because because i'm Stu: going to so embarrass my mom but uh her her Stu: name to the grandchildren is grinny and and Stu: we now call ourselves instead of granny it's grinny and we Stu: now call ourselves the grinyans because we all she Stu: runs the kitchen and and we are all the grinyans that run Stu: around and and and do her bidding so the cooking Stu: the collective cooking in writers of Stu: justice definitely reads as christmas to me and Stu: the idea that the cooking together and eating together Stu: has a healing quality to it Stu: um i definitely yeah i mean Stu: i have christmas associations with that because i i do think Stu: cooking for other people and providing nourishment has a Stu: healing quality to it and the closest i will give you to a compliment chas is Stu: that i have noticed because i'm now doing the bulk of the cooking in my in my Stu: house it's like part of the reason i've done it is because the men I admire Stu: in terms of how they look after their families is because they cook for their Stu: families.

And it's a way of nurturing.

Stu: And I'm like, Oh, I want to be more of that kind of person.

Stu: You know, I can't fix shit.

And M's the one who fixed stuff.

Stu: She's the one who put up the double the cork board for me to do index cards Stu: and stuff.

I, I mean, I could do it.

Mel: I love that you're carding your wedding.

It's perfect.

Stu: First act.

Okay.

This is, this is the low point.

Mel: Is it a three act wedding or a five act wedding?

Stu: Eight act, actually.

Eight sequences.

I'm still working on the low point.

Stu: It's going to be like when I'm like, ooh, I think I've had too much whiskey.

Chas: I do think...

Chas: Sorry to bring it back away from Stu's wedding, but similar to Kiss Kiss Bang Chas: Bang, I think Writers of Justice does have quite a complex plot as well.

Chas: So, part of the re-watchability there is less about, like, both movies leave Chas: me in the Christmas spirit.

So, I'm looking for that emotional thing.

Chas: But the re-watchability, why I'm in it, like, moment to moment or giggling or Chas: being astounded or is, like, how sort of plot heavy they are.

Chas: And also, those transgressive surprising moments still surprise me.

Chas: Like, I know when Mads is going to break that guy's neck now.

Chas: And I'm sitting here watching it.

I'm waiting for the music cue.

Chas: And it just goes, whoa.

And he turns around.

Stu: It's phenomenal.

The fact that he's a single follow shot with us behind him Stu: stops and turns around.

Such great direction.

That's so simple.

Stu: Coming to the family thing, one of the things I think it does well is that kind of bickering thing.

Stu: The balance between these people are on each other's cases.

And it kind of mean to each other.

Mel: I'm going to turn this car around if you don't stop, like literally.

Stu: But you know they love each other.

Stu: And that's a hard balance, I think, in writing, but it makes it feel like family, Stu: that they're not being polite with each other.

Stu: They're allowed to be vulnerable in each other's presence.

And sometimes being Stu: vulnerable is being a dick to someone else, right?

Stu: Often we're mean to the people that we love, and that's because we actually Stu: feel comfortable around people, and that sometimes means we show our bad sides.

Stu: And I think that's part of what makes this feel particularly like a family.

Stu: Perhaps more than kiss, kiss, bang, bang.

I don't get the sense that they're Stu: being vulnerable with each other.

Mel: No, they're just all assholes all the time.

They can't turn it off.

Stu: No.

And I think the fact that their understanding of Marcus, the Mads' character, Stu: right, and so accepting of him, which he finds insanely frustrating.

Mel: Which I love.

We're going to love you whether you fucking want it or not.

Stu: Yeah.

Mel: Like, that's essentially their approach to him.

Stu: Where do you think is the moment, I know we did a whole ensemble episode on Stu: this, but when do you think is the moment that the boys, for lack of a word, Stu: the boys, kind of start to feel affection for him?

Stu: As opposed to, because I think they see him as a means for vengeance.

Stu: They don't explicitly say it, but I definitely feel why did they go to this Stu: guy, right?

Why did they go to him?

Stu: Because I think they've done their research and go, they know he's military, right?

Chas: They do have the training sequence, Chas: which I think is a very bonding moment that's deliberately in there.

Mel: I think it bonds with him, but I think it's really for me when they see how Mel: he interacts with Mathilde, Mel: Both when he tries to get her that help in therapy or acknowledges that she needs that.

Mel: And then later, like much later, I think when it is still that family dinner Mel: sort of sequence and you can see that he's only going through it for her.

Mel: Um and they i think realize through his love for her they accept him as more Mel: than just a means for vengeance.

Chas: Yeah i think that i Chas: mean another thing that makes it a christmas movie is they spend a Chas: lot of time in the car so there's a Chas: lot of time as these guys are driving back and Chas: forth between murder sprees to where they Chas: do like they do have those moments right like where they drive each other insane Chas: and Mads physically threatens them on two occasions and on another learn something Chas: really deep about Otto and I think you're right Mel it does come back to Mathilde is I think, Chas: they instantly love Mathilde and want to nurture her and part of it is we have Chas: to help Marcus so that he stops being such an arsehole to Mathilde.

Chas: Like, so, yeah, I think...

And then through that process, like, Chas: that's what keeps them around and keeps them working on it.

Chas: And then, ultimately, they all love each other.

Mel: Right.

And I think especially clarifying for people who haven't seen, Mel: yes, he's being an arsehole to his daughter because he doesn't know any...

Mel: He doesn't know how to display anything any better.

But they can tell that he's...

Mel: Trying in his own way and they're like oh man someone Mel: needs to show him how because he literally just has no fucking clue Mel: but they they can tell that Mel: he has the desire to know and clearly was very much in love with her mother Mel: and is going through so much grief that it's compounding his usual um acerbic Mel: way of interacting and so yeah they do sort of say all right you know we're Mel: we're going to bond together and help him help her because Jesus Christ, Mel: we love her and we need to do this.

And through that, they understand him better.

Stu: No, it's a remarkable performance because there's these moments where it's, Stu: I can't remember what beat it was, but basically there's this moment where he Stu: sees her interaction with him and he smiles and then he kind of remembers that Stu: he's meant to be angry and then he switches angry and you do that all on his face, Stu: right?

That he's like, no, wait.

Chas: It's a fantastic performance.

Stu: It kind of really humanizes him.

And look, coming back to the car thing, Stu: they do play a lot of choral music, which kind of European style Christmas, right?

Stu: Which is not, you know, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, as it turns out, Stu: is a bloody jingle, you know.

I too listen to Script Notes.

Stu: But, you know, it's like that kind of commercialized side of it.

Stu: And they've gone for that kind of like European, you know, Northern European Stu: choral music stuff.

And they've got it because there's a running thing about Stu: putting on music in the car and stuff.

So, they've got that stuff as part of Stu: it.

All that kind of connects to the atmosphere.

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Excerpts: Well, who are you?

Mel: I'm going to lead in by saying, and I would love to put this in the show notes.

Mel: There's a article in Bright Wall Darkroom that I reread every year, Mel: which is about It's a Wonderful Life essentially being noir.

Mel: And I think that it is a lot darker than most people, than almost anyone who hasn't seen it.

Mel: And even the most people who have seen it once or twice really do engage with.

Mel: And that it has, first of all, I mean, Frank Capra is dealing with some darker things.

Mel: And I do not think that it is, I think that people tend to chalk up certain Mel: of Jimmy Stewart's character, George Bailey's emotional responses as all like a product of the times.

Mel: I don't think that's accurate at all.

I think that Capra Mel: is very well aware that this guy is a bit fucked up Mel: and that it is explicitly Mel: engaging with that as well as it is explicitly Mel: anti-capitalist yes doing this Mel: in a way that acknowledges um the uh hard and oppressed individuals and explicitly Mel: immigrants and um people without means in the town and then i mean you're dealing Mel: with suicide and you're dealing with like.

Mel: The assault type thing, like, you know, getting punched in the face, Mel: walking to the bar isn't as bad, but you're dealing with somebody who's right Mel: off the bat in the opening scene whose son has died and who, Mel: because he is so depressed and grief stricken, Mel: almost accidentally kills another child.

Mel: You know, you're dealing with war and both Capra and Stuart were enlisted in the war as well.

Mel: And I think it's dealing with a society that's being decimated and doesn't, Mel: you know, now we're at the point where we don't know if there's another war, Mel: you know, coming down the road.

Mel: And I think it's got all of that underneath this sort of, yeah, Mel: cheerful, funny, whatever performance, but that doesn't make it twee and it Mel: certainly doesn't make it light.

Stu: All right.

Do you want to go and summarize the film for those of us who haven't Stu: seen it?

Which can be, I mean, I haven't seen it.

Mel: I think most Americans, even if they haven't sat down and watched it, Mel: because it's a film that actually fell sort of accidentally.

Mel: It was not well received when it was released.

it fell Mel: essentially what happened is it came into public domain and all Mel: of the uh television stations went oh well this Mel: is free and about christmas so they would put it on constantly Mel: just as filler during the holiday season until it Mel: became a huge hit years and years and years after it was done so now pretty Mel: much anytime you can throw on a television in the u.s and at some point this Mel: is playing in you know the couple of weeks lead up to christmas so a lot of Mel: people who absorbed it by osmosis even if they haven't sat down and watched it if you're in the U.S.

Mel: So the plot is basically, it's actually quite a long film.

Mel: It's well over two hours.

And it starts with, you see these sparkling constellations Mel: and you hear somebody who's, you know, in theory, talking to this angel and Mel: he's like, you want a task.

Here's this guy.

And he's like, oh.

Mel: Hour and a half is just you get Mel: this guy's backstory uh he was a child Mel: and his he rescued his Mel: little brother who fell through the ice when they were sledding and lost Mel: hearing in his ear and then you know he grew up and you watch him playing and Mel: you watch him doing all these things and his life is constantly frustrated by Mel: inability to do what he wants he wants to travel he wants to get a college education Mel: he wants to go and um start a big job he wants he has all these opportunities that end up stymied, Mel: whereas his brother is sort of like the golden child.

Mel: And then the villain of the piece is a guy played by Drew Barrymore's grandfather Mel: who plays just a phenomenal scenery-chewing...

Stu: No, it's like her great-uncle.

Mel: Great-uncle?

Stu: Something like that.

It's not direct relative, but yeah.

Mel: Just a deliciously scenery-chewing bad guy who is attempting to own the entire Mel: town.

He owns a big part of it already, and he's trying to own all of the town.

Mel: And he attempts to own the Bailey Savings and Loans several times, Mel: and every time, just by the skin of their teeth, George is able to save the family business.

Mel: So then he meets and marries uh Mel: mary they have a couple of kids and then one day right before christmas his Mel: uncle who works for the bailings and loan misplaces eight thousand dollars now Mel: by misplaces we mean that potter who is the bad guy has taken the eight thousand dollars no.

Chas: It fell into his lap.

Mel: Did not fall into his lap like there was a there was a bit of a tussle like Mel: with newspaper anyway he he has his eight thousand dollars he knows whose it Mel: is and he said and so he steals it yes he goes oh this is going to be what finally Mel: puts bailey savings and loan under which is going to mean i can own the town and.

Stu: Bailey's savings and loan is kind of close to a co-op in the fact that it's a community bank.

Excerpts: You're you're thinking of this place all wrong as if i had the money back in Excerpts: a safe the money's not here well your money's in joe's house that's right next Excerpts: to yours, and in the Kennedy house, and Mrs.

Makeland's house, and a hundred others.

Excerpts: You're lending them the money to build and then they're going to pay it back Excerpts: to you as best they can.

What are you going to do, foreclose on them?

Mel: Yeah, it's like a community credit union, essentially.

Chas: Which they then use to fund the Chas: town members being able to build their own houses at what sounds like...

Stu: Communism.

Chas: Aggressively low interest rates, like pay me back when you can kind of loans.

Mel: That's not the house loans.

Those are all of the rest of the loans that he gives Mel: them because they have no money.

And a lot of them work for Potter in what is Mel: essentially Potter attempting to make it like a company town.

Mel: And so sometimes if they can't get advances on their paydays or whatever, Mel: they'll get those at essentially no interest whatsoever from George.

Mel: So George, in finding all this out, realizes, A, he's ruined.

He's lost everything.

Mel: He's very upset.

upset and he realizes that his life insurance policy, Mel: which is good for $15,000, well, Potter says directly to him, Mel: you're worth more dead than alive.

Mel: And so he goes to a bridge to jump off the bridge, kill himself, Mel: and in theory then his life insurance policy would save the savings and loan and Mary and the town.

Mel: Now, while he's attempting to do that, there's a Loro, Splash, Mel: and this guy named Clarence who, as we now know, is the angel has jumped into the water.

Mel: George jumps in after him.

They get.

Mel: Pulled out.

And Clarence says, I jumped in to save you.

And George is like, Mel: I wish you hadn't done that.

Mel: Everyone would be better off without me.

I wish I'd never been born.

Mel: And Clarence is like, great, you've never been born.

And then they go through Mel: the town and George sees what would have happened to the town and his community Mel: and all these people had he never been born.

Mel: And it's, you know, the person Mel: that he worked for that he stopped from accidentally serving poison to a Mel: little kid uh served boys into the kid went to prison for Mel: 20 years and is now a rambling drunk um Mel: the uh woman who Mel: he was able to you know give some money when she needed it Mel: um sort of the town lush uh has Mel: been forced into um unseemly Mel: sort of life this is during the Mel: haze code so they can't really say like hey Mel: this woman has been raped and forced into prostitution but that's Mel: definitely what's happened right um a couple Mel: of other people who um have either died or Mel: become just bitter angry people etc etc you Mel: you recognize that he has done Mel: all now this takes 15 minutes out of an over two hour runtime it's a very very Mel: and most of that time is george arguing with clarence like what are you talking Mel: about this is fine like really the the thing that most people know about from Mel: It's a Wonderful Life probably takes about seven minutes of runtime where he's Mel: going back through the town and he's seeing all this.

Stu: And then he- I was expecting it to be most of the movie as opposed to a sequence in the third act.

Mel: It's a short sequence.

There's a lead up to, which is about five to 10 minutes Mel: where he's telling Clarence, this is crazy.

Mel: And then there's a five minute sequence where he actually realizes what's happening.

Mel: And then after that, he runs back to the bridge and says, I want to live.

I want to be alive.

Mel: And realizes that this magic sequence, right?

Mel: And we were talking about magic being an element of Christmas movies that magically Mel: he's back to exactly where he started.

His mouth is bleeding from being hit.

Mel: He has Zuzu's petals in his pocket that he'd taken from his sick kid before Mel: he left the house.

His car was still crashed into the tree.

Mel: And so he runs back and goes home.

Mel: And in the quote-unquote real-time hour while he's been gone, Mel: the town has all rallied together and pulled some money, Mel: and his rich friend has called in from overseas and said, you know, Mel: I'm extending you a line of credit, and the bank examiner who was there has Mel: been satisfied, and they all come together and say, Mel: you have friends, and we've, you know, saved the town.

Mel: And every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings and then they all sing Auld Lang Syne and the end.

Mel: That is a, it's a long movie and a lot happens.

Chas: I have one, one addition.

You said that George Bailey is always stymied in leading Chas: the life that he wants to lead.

Chas: And what I think is particularly excellent about the movie is that basically Chas: every time he's about to do the thing that he wants to do, go away traveling, Chas: go away to college, go away on his honeymoon.

Chas: There is an external event that happens, but then George is presented with a Chas: choice, either help others or he still has the opportunity to do the thing that he was going to do.

Chas: He could have left his recently deceased father's business and gone on holiday.

He could have.

Mel: But he knows that Potter would have taken it over.

And I think very, Mel: very, very crucially, the reason that they do not go on their honeymoon is Potter Mel: has engineered a run on the bank and as they're about to leave for their honeymoon, Mel: the run starts on the bank or the credit union.

Mel: And if that were to successfully happen, that would sort of be over.

And it's not George.

Mel: It is Mary who says, we will use our honeymoon money to cover this shortfall temporarily.

Chas: I mean, she holds it up.

But then George doesn't at any point go, Chas: oh, Mary, that's our honeymoon money.

Mel: No, no, no, no.

Of course not.

But my point is that it's showing that she is engaged with this.

Mel: She's on board.

She suggests that she is in the community as much as he is.

Chas: Yeah.

Stu: Arguably it's one of the reasons that and she kind of says that it's one of Stu: the reasons that she married him is because of who.

Mel: He is.

Stu: And i think she recognizes that in this moment.

Mel: This is donna reeds and who's also becomes Mel: famous in television and is a producer later this is her first Mel: film role and she is the only reason that Mel: most of this film works as well as it does Mel: because she gets very little Mel: to do but she does so much Mel: with it and if you don't buy how in love with her he is and if you don't buy Mel: that she would stand with him even when he has some some pretty rough time and Mel: if you don't buy that she has the same ethos like it doesn't work and and even Mel: the the way that she and violet are positioned as these sort of polar opposites and as kids they you know, Mel: but that she is understanding of who she is and is perfectly fine with, Mel: you know, the relationship that George still has with her, et cetera.

Mel: And all of that is just done with no dialogue or exposition, Mel: just through the acting of it.

Chas: One of the things, just to make super clear, because I love that you did say Chas: that George isn't the way, I think...

Chas: Pop culture recognition of him is not actually Chas: what's on screen in terms of you were going back to it's a Chas: darker movie because one of the things that I do think they do excellently in Chas: this movie is he begrudges those decisions he always makes the right decision Chas: but he's never happy that he was put in the position he's never gone oh well Chas: like he's not like he's not a saint right he is angry about no.

Mel: He's not a saint he's a bit of a martyr.

Chas: Yeah but.

Mel: He's almost entirely apparently angry at the right person.

Chas: Yes there.

Mel: Is one massive outburst that sort of prompts everything and when he does that Mel: he apologizes for being angry at the wrong person but he understands that he's Mel: been put in this position by potter he understands that he's been put in this Mel: position through this unjust system.

Chas: Yeah and.

Mel: He understands that it's not the fault of mary or martinelli or whomever but Mel: he is still very angry about it and i.

Chas: Think.

Mel: Capra is angry about it and.

Chas: That's what this movie is angry yeah and.

Mel: I think that that's fair.

Chas: Yeah sorry i was the only reason why i was highlighting that is Chas: because i i think i understood what you were Chas: saying before and wanted to bring out like yeah the darkness of both the film Chas: and george bailey as a character like his low moments where he is a complete Chas: shit is because he's lashing out at this situation whenever he's come to make Chas: a choice he makes the right choice but he's like, Chas: essentially why the fuck do I keep getting put in this position where I have Chas: to make these choices over and over again it's.

Mel: Very very Garden of Gethsemane like will this cup not pass from me.

Chas: You know.

Mel: I'll do it but, Mel: god i don't want to yeah um and it Mel: is it is dark and it affects him it doesn't the Mel: movie doesn't act like doing the right thing makes you happy Mel: all the time the movie acts like sometimes doing the right Mel: thing is super shitty and affects your relationships Mel: in negative ways and is painful and can literally make you suicidal now what's Mel: what's interesting in in a little bit of the pre-chat that we were talking about Mel: is you were saying that george bailey wants to die and i disagree I don't think Mel: he wants to die by suicide because he is depressed.

Mel: He is attempting suicide because Mel: that to him is the final solution and the only way out that he sees.

Mel: And he has so consistently sacrificed himself for home and country.

Mel: And and here it's not just for Mel: the town although it is for the town it is my wife will Mel: be ruined my children will be ruined everything that i have worked my entire Mel: life to build he does see it as a little bit of a uh sunk cost fallacy like Mel: i've i've given everything for this town and if i don't do this one last act Mel: the town will be gone and everything will have been in vain i.

Chas: I fully agree I agree with that.

I'm not saying that George Bailey wanted to die at that point.

Chas: In fact, it actually reinforces the point where I get all Grinchy and I'm like, Chas: this movie doesn't work for me at the end.

Chas: But before we go all Chaz grumpy Grinch, what makes this film so rewatchable for female?

Mel: There are Christmas elements, obviously.

I think this one of all of them has Mel: the most quote-unquote specifically Christmas elements.

Mel: Everyone in there singing Auld Lang Syne at the end is a very moving moment.

Mel: It is very emotionally effective.

Mel: You have the decorating all of the trees with tinsel.

Mel: You have the when George finally realizes what's happened, running through the Mel: street singing, screaming, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas.

Mel: And I think that Capra didn't want this to be a holiday movie per se, Mel: like he didn't expect this to be a Christmas tradition, but I think he did want Mel: to tie Christmas to the idea of community and the idea of being responsible Mel: for your neighbor as opposed to commercialism.

Mel: And I think that that aspect is very strong.

Mel: Of course, for me, it feels traditional.

Mel: There are certain movies like White Christmas, It's a Wonderful Life, Mel: A Muppets Christmas Carol, and a George C.

Mel: Scott Christmas Carol, explicitly the George C.

Scott and Muppets ones, Mel: also known as the two best ones, that I rewatched almost every year around Christmas.

Mel: So it feels very traditional.

But it is also about the Christmas spirit and Mel: has all the Christmas lights and decorating the tree.

Chas: And literal angels.

and literal angels i Chas: i'd remembered like clarence and that but Chas: i'd forgotten the you know all three of these films uh have sort of like chapter Chas: elements so i mean more more sensibly kiss bang bang but the the narration and Chas: the sequence orientation of it um yeah i'd forgotten yep that we have someone Chas: walking us through george bale's life yeah.

Mel: There's the the narrators and they do have chapters it's like here he is as Mel: a small child and we'll go through this okay now he's come back.

Mel: Oh, now they've had these kids.

Mel: Oh, now, yeah, it's very...

It doesn't have chapter headings.

Mel: The only one that has the headings is Kiss Kiss Maybe.

They're all very, Mel: you know, yeah, cordoned out.

Stu: Does that give it a storybook feel?

And that kind of tap into the nostalgia?

Mel: The angel thing?

Stu: No, no, the chapters.

Mel: I mean...

Mel: It is very storybook like this one man's life, you know, which I think inherently Mel: if you're talking about someone's entire span of their life and everyone that Mel: they've touched is very sort of storybooky.

Mel: I think maybe you're right.

I think maybe the chapters thing does.

Mel: And we do keep returning to that like very lo-fi sparkling Milky Way thing, Mel: you know, which has that storybook feel as well.

So, yeah, probably.

Chas: I do feel like it's a good pacing thing, because for what is ostensibly just Chas: the story of a person's life, it allows us to cut very effectively.

Chas: So Clarence goes, who's this?

Why are we here?

Well, this is why we're now here, Clarence.

Stu: Completely.

Mel: I don't understand this character.

Why are they being introduced 45 minutes Mel: in?

Well, let me tell you why.

Stu: I mean, even though it is heavily focused on one character, I definitely feel Stu: like it is a bit of an ensemble.

Stu: Not just Mary, but the supporting characters.

Mel: Bert and Ernie.

Stu: Bert and Ernie particularly.

And I'm assuming that's where Bert and Ernie from The Muppets got it from?

Mel: Apparently not.

But yeah, Bert and Ernie.

Like literally these tertiary characters, Mel: Alice, who clearly, and I think one of the things that helps so much about that, Mel: right, is the first time we meet Alice, she already has Mel: a very different relationship with each Mel: of the family members and that is shown not Mel: told but like because of that even though she's really Mel: only in three scenes and barely at that and again hide of the haze code there's Mel: a lot of really strict rules about segregation and things like that that were Mel: in play in hollywood at this time but you have a character who has a who who Mel: walks in and there's four people in the room and she has different relationships Mel: with all four of them and interacts differently with all four of them, Mel: which helps immediately give you the sense that this is a town full of different people.

Excerpts: Well, Annie, why don't you draw up a chair then you'd be more comfortable and Excerpts: you could hear everything that's going on.

I would if I thought I'd hear anything Excerpts: worth listening to.

You would.

Mel: You know, you see the Martinelli's when they buy their home.

Mel: Everyone is, it's a crowd of people.

It's Mary and George giving them the gifts Mel: and giving a little speech.

Mel: But there's a crowd of people, which just gives you the idea that this is a Mel: really fleshed out ensemble piece.

Excerpts: Martini!

You rented a new house?

Rent!

Excerpts: You hear what he's saying, Mr.

Bailey?

What's that?

I own the house.

Excerpts: Me, Giuseppe Martini, I own my own house.

No more we'll live like a pig in this Excerpts: potter's field.

One more after.

Excerpts: Hurry, hurry.

Harry, come on, bring the baby.

Excerpts: This is like a pig!

I'll take the kids in the car.

Oh, thank you, Mr.

Baby.

Excerpts: All right, kids.

Here.

Here, get in here.

One more time, get right up on the seat there.

Mel: And you, you know, you have the jealous ex-boyfriend and you have, what's his name?

Mel: You know who who has this catchphrase sort of thing that gets introduced when Mel: he's a kid that that comes up every time so you immediately know who they are Mel: you know you have people with, Mel: specific you know clothing and that sort of thing like violet it Mel: is very clear who she is every time she steps on screen because she's dressed Mel: differently than everybody else she looks wildly different you have the bank Mel: examiner even right who comes in with his his little like nose in the air and Mel: those the specific glasses and they're all they're all set apart but it's it Mel: is a big ensemble movie it.

Stu: Does feel family in a different way in the way that they support each other and.

Mel: Yeah and again very very intentionally so Mel: like it's that the idea of of obviously george has his his family but that capra Mel: is making the point of community and family and that he has mary and four kids Mel: but he also has this close intense relationship with a lot of other people in Mel: the town who is a found family.

Stu: Yeah, I mean, that makes it similar to kind of Writers of Justice and stuff like that.

Stu: And I like that.

I mean, it is an antidote to individualism, right?

Chas: It's kind of what all three of these movies are.

Chas: Like if that's the one thing that connects them all is it's all about like all Chas: these people succeed because they work together.

Together.

Stu: Yeah, that's true.

Chas: Although they find their families or build their families.

Stu: Yeah.

And is that what, I mean, I suppose it is because the thing is people Stu: do celebrate Christmas.

Stu: I've had a Christmas with you, Mel, you know.

Mel: That's true.

We both had Christmas plans canceled because of lockdowns.

Mel: And there were four of us or five?

I think it was just the four of us.

Mel: We all ended up with our Christmas plans.

It got canceled because of various Mel: other lockdown people.

And we had a wonderful Christmas.

Very last minute.

Stu: To be honest, it's the only Christmas I've not had with my family.

Stu: So my blood family.

So, you know.

Mel: Oh, wow.

Honored.

I did not know that.

Stu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it is.

So the fact is people do often find, Stu: you know, spend that time with found family, even if they don't spend it with Stu: blood family.

And I think that is kind of like a good message in these.

Stu: But what makes It's a Wonderful Life so rewatchable?

Stu: I mean, I found it super emotional, but, I mean, I find everything emotional.

Stu: So I can see why if I want a particular feeling, I would see why I would reach to it.

Stu: But is that the defining thing?

Mel: I think.

Stu: Because it is, as you say, quite long, and I was surprised by how long it was.

Stu: But is it because I could also see how it would become a tradition?

Stu: Because there is a lot of voiceover you know clarence like all the the chatting Stu: about his life and stuff like that doesn't mean you could have it in the background Stu: is it the archness of some of it you know.

Mel: I think there's a few reasons i think um one it's a very well-made movie you Mel: have the that set piece of them dancing on as a swimming pool opens and they're Mel: about to fall like it's so good um there's a lot of really cool staging bits Mel: like that right um also it is.

Stu: They also did the historically accurate, they did the proper 1920s Charleston Stu: and not the 1940s Charleston, so they made sure to, I mean, to be fair, Stu: it's like someone looking up in 2020, the down step from the 2000s, Stu: I mean, it's not that hard to get it accurate.

Mel: It's not as far removed.

Stu: It's not far removed, so you can probably go, oh, yeah, you know, Stu: we can do at least this accurately.

Mel: So I think it's a well-made movie just because it's long.

It's a well-made movie.

Mel: I think around the holidays, we want to believe in the inherent goodness eventually wins, right?

Mel: Which this does.

It goes, even if you are sad and angry and frustrated and don't Mel: get everything you want out of life, Mel: that does not mean that your life is empty and it doesn't mean that you won't Mel: have good times again And it doesn't mean that you don't have people who love Mel: you, which this movie nails.

Mel: The other thing, though, about it is this and A Christmas Carol are two of the Mel: most, not even memed, but homaged stories of all time.

Stu: I mean, this is an homage to A Christmas Carol.

This is inspired by.

Mel: In a different way, right?

And you watch a lot of holiday specials of sitcoms.

Mel: And I have somewhere a list of my favorite holiday sitcom episodes that riff Mel: on this or A Christmas Carol.

Mel: Because it is that A Christmas Carol is about going and seeing what people really Mel: think of you or could be different.

Mel: This is what people's life would be like without you when you are feeling like I don't matter.

Mel: What I have done hasn't affected people.

And it's going and being proven wrong Mel: about that.

And so there's so many, so, so, so many sitcom episodes that around Mel: Christmas do a version of this.

Mel: You know, it's shorthand for things.

Mel: You've got a lot of pop culture that references it one way or the other, Mel: whether it's George Bailey in general or Clarence the Angel or Every Time a Mel: Bell Rings an Angel Gets His Wings, which was obviously a saying before this Mel: movie, but has been very popularized as something that this movie does.

Mel: Which also the movie makes fun of within itself which is pretty great and self-aware Mel: but I think that, again, most people, Mel: know the basic structure of this movie Mel: and the basic story even if they have like i said the the most famous part of Mel: it is you know barely maybe like a fifth of its actual runtime but people know Mel: what it is people have 1000 seen an episode of television that riffs on it uh Mel: or or even a movie that riffs on it yeah.

Stu: The sims the simpsons in the simpsons in particular yeah.

Mel: Right and so i think that that also makes it inherently rewatchable is something Mel: that you are familiar with even if you've never seen it before you're still Mel: familiar and that is a very holiday thing of other than chaz apparently who Mel: only watches new christmas movies every year um i watch.

Chas: Old ones that i haven't seen before.

Mel: As well well new to you new to you christmas movies Mel: where there's a familiarity and a comfort to it um and i think that makes it Mel: very you know rewatchable as well We want to believe that in the end that we Mel: matter and that Goodwin's out and that Potter doesn't buy the whole town and, Mel: you know, blow it up for the hell of it.

Stu: And that, you know, that housing is a human right.

Yeah.

Mel: Wouldn't it be nice?

Excerpts: Now, you take this loan here to Ernie Bishop.

Excerpts: You know, that fellow that sits around all day on his brains in his taxi, you know.

Excerpts: I happen to know the bank turned down this loan.

Excerpts: But he comes here, and we're building him a house worth $5,000.

Excerpts: Why?

Well, I handled that, Mr.

Potter.

You have all the papers there, his salary, insurance.

Excerpts: I can personally vouch for his character.

Friend of yours?

Yes, sir.

Excerpts: You see, if you shoot pool with some employee here, you can come and borrow money.

Excerpts: What does that get us?

A discontented, lazy rabble instead of a thrifty working class.

Excerpts: And all because a few starry-eyed dreamers like Peter Bailey stir them up and Excerpts: fill their head with a lot of impossible ideas.

Excerpts: Now, I say...

Just a minute.

Just a minute.

Now, hold on, Mr.

Excerpts: Parker.

Wait a minute.

Now, you're right when you say my father was no businessman.

I know that.

Excerpts: Why he ever started this cheap penny-ante building alone, I'll never know.

Excerpts: But neither you nor anybody else can say anything against his character because Excerpts: his whole life was...

Why, in the 25 years since he and Uncle Billy started Excerpts: this thing, he never once thought of himself.

Excerpts: Isn't that right, Uncle Billy?

He didn't save enough money to send Harry to school, let alone me.

Excerpts: But he did help a few people get out of your slums, Mr.

Potter.

Excerpts: And what's wrong with that?

Excerpts: Well, here, you're all businessmen here.

doesn't make them better citizens, Excerpts: doesn't make them better customers.

Excerpts: You said that they, what'd you say just a minute ago, they had to wait and save Excerpts: their money before they even thought of a decent home?

Wait, wait for what?

Excerpts: Until their children grow up and leave them?

Until they're so old and broken Excerpts: down that they, do you know how long it takes a working man to save $5,000?

Excerpts: Just remember this, Mr.

Potter, that this rabble you're talking about, Excerpts: they do most of the working and paying and living and dying in this community.

Excerpts: Well, is it too much to have them work and pay and live and die in a couple Excerpts: of decent rooms and a bath?

anyway my father didn't think so.

Excerpts: People were human beings to him, but to you, a warped, frustrated old man, Excerpts: they're cattle.

Well, in my book, he died a much richer man than you'll ever be.

Stu: It was a surprise message.

All right.

Any, I mean, not a surprising message, Stu: but it's like, it's that reminder of like the kind of socialist aspect of American politics.

Stu: It's kind of, anyway.

Mel: Well, and this is where, I mean, we wanted to talk about rewatchability.

Mel: We want to talk about what makes a Christmas movie.

But I actually think, Mel: and as much as I love, I love, I mean, this year I will, both for this podcast Mel: and with another friend group, have rewatched explicitly for Christmas reasons, Mel: Riders of Justice, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, Die Hard, and In Bruges.

I like those movies.

Mel: I like them for lots of reasons, but I actually would love to see more watching Mel: of these types of movies that are not, I don't think, Mel: twee, but are sincere and are much more explicitly about addressing what Christmas Mel: is and what Christmas shouldn't be.

Mel: Whether it is or isn't is probably a very much Mel: dependent on your social circles and families in person and whatever Mel: but i think that there's a lot of movies that i Mel: watch not all of them are black and white but if you Mel: go back to something like i think Mel: a christmas in connecticut was another one that i floated through this you've Mel: got white christmas uh you know bing crosby you've Mel: got um the fuck the santa's store department one of the court case where they Mel: take uh miracle on 34th street miracle on 34th street thank you um you've got Mel: a lot of these more traditional christmas movies and there's nothing wrong with Mel: quote-unquote non-traditional like the other two that we've covered um.

Mel: I do think that every year things like this do get pushed aside for like, oh, it's old.

Mel: Oh, it's twee.

Oh, it's sincere.

Oh, it's whatever.

Mel: Oh, I don't like rom-coms.

Oh, you know, Love Actually is over.

Mel: And I'm not talking about us.

I'm just talking about things that you hear in society or at large.

Mel: And I think that that's actually a bit sad to me.

And I think that to make space Mel: for both of those things is really important.

Mel: And to address the fact that a lot of throwing away quote-unquote traditional Mel: Christmas movies often unintentionally means that around the holidays we're Mel: not absorbing the things that these Christmas movies are trying to impart.

Mel: And I think that is a bit sad.

Stu: You mean we're losing a bit of the traditional values?

Mel: If by traditional values you mean housing is a human right and community wins Mel: and anti-capitalist overlords?

Mel: Yeah, sure.

That's my idea of a traditional value.

Stu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mel: I think a lot of people actually would be surprised at how progressive a lot Mel: of things that they poo-poo actually are.

Stu: Yes.

I mean, the only thing that feels slightly non-progressive, Stu: though, of its period is the role of women.

Stu: You know, this, oh, she's an old maid and she's like 27.

Mel: They try to age her up, but.

Stu: Yeah, they try to age her up at 27 to be honest.

Chas: She looks like a very happy librarian to me.

Mel: Take your glasses off and let your hair down and suddenly you're playing like Mel: Bao Chicka-Wow music in the background, right?

Like, they try, Mel: but they can't quite land it.

Stu: Oh, yeah.

Donna Reed.

Yeah.

Exactly, right?

Stu: Yeah, it is quite amusing.

But it is.

I mean, I guess one of those things is Stu: those connections of this stuff of what we think of progressivism or something.

Stu: I mean, we're talking about, like, particularly our politics, Stu: but it's like these things do predate us, you know, that there are these notions Stu: and these ideas have existed for a while.

And there is, I mean, Stu: that is kind of the tradition stuff, but.

Mel: People who think movies now are too woke should seriously go and actually watch movies from the 40s.

Mel: Like, honestly, get bent.

Stu: I mean, people, it's like Star Wars is woke and it's like, yes.

Mel: Star Wars was created as an anti-Vietnam movie.

Congratulations.

Stu: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But also like the, I mean, I just watched a new, Stu: rewatched A New Hope in preparation for an episode we're doing in the future in the arc of awesome.

Stu: And I remember how, like, subversive what they're doing with Princess Leia and Stu: rescuing the princess and all that stuff was.

Stu: And it probably would have felt it quite, like, both subversive in the 1970s, Stu: but also the fact is it's still, we've been, humans have been subverting stuff Stu: since we started writing it, you know.

Stu: Tristan Shrandy is not a new novel.

Mel: Christmas movies included.

Chas: Can I just, this is, I think, possibly to go into back matter, Chas: but can I grinch up It's a Wonderful Life?

Mel: You can.

Chas: I've had this experience both times watching it.

I'm like, George comes back.

Chas: He's found Susie's pedals.

Chas: Everything's okay again.

I'm like, all right, so now throw yourself into the Chas: river because nothing has changed.

Chas: Because what you were saying before, he doesn't want to kill himself.

Chas: He just has to save the bank and save the town.

I'm like, well, it's all going to shit.

Mel: What Clarence has made him realize is that his life going forward will also do that, right?

Mel: Like, the fact that he existed, and even when he thought he was failing constantly, Mel: he was not failing, and that he still has community and family and friends, Mel: which is like what the inscription on the book says, right, about having friends, Mel: means that he will go forward doing that.

He does still think...

Mel: That the bank will go under but he thinks okay i Mel: will still be able to help this community in Mel: other ways and i will just by just Mel: by being there for mary is is going to be better Mel: than my not being there for mary again because for him and this like the wanting Mel: to die by suicide is not about i'm too yeah horrifically sad to go on yeah yeah Mel: it is and so he realizes that my being there for Mary will be better than not being.

Mel: Whereas before he went to the bridge to see Clarence, he thought my being gone Mel: is better for her and better for the community.

Chas: Yeah.

But the $15,000 is still worth more than his life.

Chas: I guess maybe he thinks differently, but I get, so Clarence's little journey Chas: to me didn't convince, it shows what George Bailey, the good that he did by Chas: existing up until this point, it doesn't impact that choice.

Mel: Right but how many of those ways that he saw that he changed people's life had Mel: to do with money all of them he runs no no no no no no no no no specifically Mel: right Martinelli had nothing to do with money it had him to do with stopping Mel: from killing that kid accidentally his brother it was from now.

Chas: That's Gower Martini he gave a house he did.

Mel: It with money he gave him all right you're right you're right there was the other uh Mel: it was the Gower yeah yeah it was Gower uh his brother it was from the icy water Mel: mary it was simply being in a relationship with her only one of them if i recall Mel: correctly only one of them actually had to do with money the rest of them just Mel: had to do with his existence and with his formulating community yeah.

Chas: But his existence moving forward from this point will be in jail.

Mel: That's what he thinks but yeah yeah and scandal it i don't he wasn't going to Mel: go to jail he talked about scandal and he talked about like He might go to jail Mel: for a short period of time.

This is not how this works.

Chas: And then the lawyer in me at the resolution also got angry because I'm like, Chas: They've just seen a bank, the guy who manages a bank, misappropriate the entire Chas: cash of the bank and then seen the community come to pour that money back in.

Chas: But he still misappropriated the entire cash flow to the bank.

He should...

Anyway.

Mel: Misappropriation is a strong word.

This is not misappropriation.

Mel: This was an accidental loss.

Mel: Now, I do think Capra clearly knows that because it brings in the bank examiner Mel: to make that face and be like, sure, I'm going to let this go.

Mel: But at the same time it's like well.

Chas: Christmas magic this is all me Chas: just being a lawyer like this Chas: is just displaying like my own sensibilities like like Chas: if it was me i would have been like oh i'm so glad my kids are alive again i'm Chas: gonna kill myself now to save everyone like if following it just felt inconsistent Chas: and i'm like love the whole movie i was just like change the final three minutes Chas: in some other way that makes more sense for me and then i would.

Mel: Honestly honest question i would love you to somehow rewrite.

Chas: An ending that works and you.

Mel: Just said in three minutes it's not happening but yeah we'll give you five pages five pages.

Chas: I've got to get through five pages of all my other projects but it does sound Chas: like a fun back matter at some point of us acting out chas's ending to it's Chas: a wonderful life which is a trial in some kind of financial tribunal this.

Stu: Will be back matter for next year.

Chas: And then and.

Stu: Then a year after that will be people the summaries of people passing judgment on your.

Chas: On your version a.

Mel: Christmas tradition is formed.

Chas: A christmas.

Stu: Tradition is formed yeah the family reading chas's version of a christmas carol Stu: which turns into kafka's the trial performing.

Mel: A five minute play.

Chas: Yeah yeah.

Stu: Yeah anatomy of the murder is just i mean it feels like you could actually turn Stu: it into a stage play a christmas stage play which is actually a sequel yeah Stu: to it's a wonderful life where he actually it's.

Mel: An alternate life.

Stu: Yeah.

Chas: It's like the day after when the bank examiner comes back and says actually Chas: i have to arrest you now george he wouldn't arrest george.

Mel: He'd arrest his uncle.

Chas: Only if george throws him under the bus so that's like part of the opening scene Chas: is like well he does he does yell it his uncle it's you who's going to jail not me yeah.

Stu: I'm not but then later on he he kind of specifically particularly in front of um.

Chas: Potter potter.

Stu: In front of potter he actually says it's him.

Chas: Yeah which.

Mel: Surprises potter he's never gonna tell potter like that his uncle's done a bad yeah i know.

Chas: Anyway hopefully i didn't bring down the end of the christmas recording i.

Mel: Mean you're not yelling at kiss, kiss, bang, bang, like losing a finger, Mel: getting it sold on, losing it again, et cetera, et cetera.

Like none of that Mel: actually works that way.

Chas: No.

Stu: I mean, or writers of justice where they somehow slaughter a bunch of people Stu: in front of his house and they're all like, nope, they're fine.

Mel: That's fine.

Yeah.

Chas: But I was on the understanding that the people who paid into the loan, Chas: into the bank, had shares in the bank, were, you know, paying it off on time.

Chas: Like Potter was, even in the initial one, was critical of the people that they Chas: were loaning money to and at what rates and things like that.

Chas: So I was like, oh, so now the community is finally coming.

Chas: And if they just paid off their loans on time.

Mel: They're not.

Chas: Previously that he was never been in this position.

Mel: Yeah, they're not paying off Mel: their loans.

They're giving George Bailey money.

Like that is different.

Chas: Sort of.

Mel: They're paying him the money so that then he can save the bank.

Mel: They're not that money is not going towards their loans.

Chas: I know.

I know at that point.

But also like if here, if the business.

Mel: Oh, it's a razor thin margin.

But if his uncle hadn't lost the money, they had enough money.

Chas: Oh, for sure.

Mel: To withstand the...

Chas: But I mean, he jokes to the bank manager that they're broke before his uncle lost the money.

Mel: It's so funny.

Yeah.

And then he's like, oh, that's funny.

Oh, sure.

Right.

Excerpts: I trust you had a good year.

Good year?

Well, between you and me, Excerpts: Mr.

Carter, we're broke.

Yeah.

Very funny.

Excerpts: Well, I'll come right in here, Mr.

Carter.

Mel: Bless Jimmy Stewart Yes.

Stu: Yeah, exactly Alright, is there any kind of learnings or anything we want to talk about?

No?

Mel: I did find Chaz, the list that you sent through was really interesting, Mel: just sort of as a not as a checklist or even explicitly as a lens but just seeing Mel: that all of these movies did hit almost all those things, Mel: even the fact that you write the nostalgia factor or the redemption factor or Mel: the, I mean, even Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, right?

Mel: It opens not with Harry currently, right?

It opens with him as a kid.

Mel: It is kind of setting you up to be like, oh, he's a bit of a larrican.

He's cute.

He's this.

Mel: He has this friendship with Harmony and he has all these sorts of things, Mel: which I think is in Christmas movies in particular, there does need to be a Mel: sense of play, a sense of joy.

Mel: There tends to be a little bit of the like, oh, nostalgia factor, et cetera.

Mel: And more than in a movie that you're going to watch more.

Mel: For the sake of watching.

Stu: So did you want to quickly run through that list again just as a as a bookend chas.

Chas: Sure i've got it here uh tropes as in i guess this is talking about subversion Chas: but like the trappings of of christmas which then also to me connects very much Chas: with atmosphere and nostalgia like all those three things seem to connect but Chas: nostalgia is a big one like, Chas: that's that to me that's another word of i guess way of talking about rituals Chas: we want to recapture or a feeling that we've had before.

Stu: Yeah.

And that kind of feels somewhat external to the movie unless they're kind Stu: of specifically digging into people's experience of Christmas, Stu: but that is going to shift.

But, you know.

Chas: Yeah.

And the other ones were magic.

And then I was just thinking, Chas: oh, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang didn't have any magic.

And I'm like, Chas: wait, Harry was a magician.

Chas: Family, redemption, and hope.

Stu: I mean, I think that back half all of the films do it.

Stu: And the magic is also he survives and Harry kills like 16 guys, Stu: you know, like, you know, Captain, they even say, they call him Captain fucking Stu: magic or whatever when he kills the main villain.

Stu: Right.

And this ridiculous shot.

So he is kind of playing around with that stuff Stu: and, and writers of justice, as you say, playing around all the coincidence Stu: elements and all that.

Yeah.

Chas: And now, for Backmatter, wherein Damien actually responds to our call-out on nostalgia.

Enjoy.

Damien: Hello DraftZero listeners, and to Stu, Chaz, and Mel.

I thought I'd just give Damien: some brief thoughts about nostalgia in holiday movies.

Damien: First of all, just a quick definition of nostalgia.

The word is derived from Damien: the Greek nostos, which means homecoming, and algea, which means pain.

Damien: So it's literally about the pain of returning home.

Damien: And in the 17th century, this was seen as a medical condition.

Damien: Soldiers were seen as ill after being homesick when they were displaced during war.

Damien: But then it became a temporal phenomenon, which is kind of how we conceive of Damien: it now, which is longing for the past.

Damien: So in terms of holiday movies and nostalgia, and for the sake of this, Damien: let's go with the Western Christmas that you were discussing, a few thoughts.

Damien: First, the notion of Christmas is kind of a nostalgic concept.

Damien: So it's in the cliched mediated version we're fed.

Damien: Families coming home, being joist together with a glistening tree, Damien: present filled stockings and a turkey.

Damien: Never the total reality of what we experience, and for some not the reality at all.

Damien: And so there's a sense of pain in that unattainability.

and it's also in the Damien: actual religious event being celebrated, the birth of Jesus, Damien: so the longing for his literal birth, birth being the ultimate homecoming, Damien: with the knowledge that this return is only fleeting.

Damien: So built into many Christmas movies is this nostalgic narrative of returning Damien: home, for example Home Alone, the film ends with Kevin literally being reunited with his mother, Damien: and then the entire family comes home to a perfectly decked out fantasy Christmas Damien: home that Kevin's prepared.

Damien: At the end of the holiday, Cameron Diaz and Kate Winslet find their true home together as a family.

Damien: If I recall, It's a Wonderful Life ends with Jimmy Stewart hugging his wife Damien: and child after returning home.

Damien: The arc is all about homecoming, but audiences know this is a trick, Damien: it's comfort food, or an ideal homecoming, and there is pain and longing in that recognition.

Damien: The Love Actually phenomenon is a complex one.

No doubt the film is problematic, Damien: but the film addresses the nostalgia at the heart of Christmas in presenting Damien: some scenarios that affirm homecoming and others that do not, for example, Damien: the Laura Linney or Emma Thompson arcs, thus acknowledging the duality at its core.

Damien: Now, I do think there is a distinction between Christmas movies and movies that Damien: are set at Christmas, where the hegemonic version of Christmas is an integral Damien: part of the story engine.

Damien: So you can debate where Die Hard lies here, and I haven't seen Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.

Damien: But finally, there's the nostalgia for the movies we watch at Christmas.

Damien: And these can be cultural touchstones like Home Alone, or they can simply be Damien: movies that you associate with watching at Christmas.

Damien: For example, Sue's Ritual of Watching Lord of the Rings.

Damien: Here we might be conflating the nostalgia intertwined with Christmas with the Damien: re-watchability of these films at Christmas.

Damien: Or we could be doing something that is integrally tied to nostalgia and media, Damien: negotiating past and present.

Damien: So when life gets hard, we turn to nostalgia as a stable touchstone to consciously Damien: or unconsciously compare or process the more unstable present.

Damien: So after a tough or hectic year personally, or in a rapidly changing time technologically, Damien: politically, socially, holiday movies of all stripes can help us negotiate where Damien: we are right now in a safe and comforting way.

Damien: Hope this made sense.

Happy holiday season to all.

Chas: Merry Christmas.

Stu: That's it.

Mel: Merry fucking Christmas, you filthy animals.

Stu: Yeah, you filthy animals.

I'm talking to my colleagues.

The listeners are all wonderful.

Mel: Obviously.

Stu: Obviously.

Chas: Hopefully our listeners got something from this.

Chas: I have enjoyed myself, if nothing else.

thanks Chas: as always to our patrons who bring you more draft Chas: zero more often and managed to somehow get the three Chas: of us having watched three movies stewart actually did Chas: his homework and recording in the weeks before christmas in particular uh special Chas: thanks to our top tier patrons alexandra alexandra jen jesse lily malay paolo Chas: randy sandra these and thomas Thank you.

Stu: And we'll see you in the new year.

Excerpts: I hope you all feel like arguing with either Stu or myself about anything on Excerpts: this episode or anything in general.

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And thanks for listening.