You're listening to a Mom and mea podcast.

Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for people who don't always listen to parenting podcasts.

We unpack the news, the trends, the culture, and what parents are thinking about.

I'm on a gollie.

I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Stacy Hicks.

And I'm really glad that I'm back to being the third one to introduce myself because it was very unsettling doing it without.

Your last week, Amelia Luke Levine did his man spreading on this.

He did, he did.

Look he did a great job.

But I'm happy you're so much needed masculine energy to this show.

But we're back to our bullshit now.

So coming up today, science has established the perfect age gap for siblings and everyone is having a lot of big feelings about it, including Monds.

There's something I need to.

Talk about with the Wicked Press tour that is hard to talk about, but we're going to go there.

And why, oh why matching Christmas pajamas absolutely everywhere?

Right now, I've got a theory.

But first, Stacey, what is trending in parenting news?

So there was this story that went off on Mamma Maya this week about this kind of quiet revolution that's happening between the cohort of parents that all had COVID babies.

So this is everyone that had babies around that twenty twenty mark that they're all starting to take kindie moons.

So Amy Malloy wrote this piece about this group of parents and they're all kind of doing this.

They're almost feeling shameful about the fact that they're doing this, but it's a really brilliant idea where they're starting to take like a delayed version of a baby moon or a holiday with their kids before they start kindling with their kids with their kids, So it's all about spending more time with the kids in kind of these last few months before they're in school, and like they're off five days a week at school, and it's mums like in all sorts of workforces.

Like initially I was like, oh, that's very privileged to be able to, you know, be dropping your hours or taking time, but Amy spoke to people like there was a nurse who's taking off a month of annual leave.

There's a supermarket worker who's cutting her shifts in half for the first quarter of the year.

And then Amy herself's taking two months off over summer to kind of spend that real quality time.

And they're basically saying it's not necessarily about the kids and that we need to be like wrapping them in cotton wool because they're sensitive or anything like that.

It's that as parents, they went through a really shit time.

At that time.

It was rough, and it was a different way to come into motherhood and be raising kids, and so it's going I'm just going to be present and be around more for them.

Whether that's on a holiday or whether.

That's just being at home and being there for pickup, just to kind of adjust to that time because we kind of don't talk about what a big adjustment that is going into school when they start.

That's really interesting because I have one of those COVID babies.

My second was a COVID baby, and at first when I read about this, it seemed almost paradoxical to say that they need to spend more time with their kids.

Yeah, the whole point of COVID in terms of the lockdowns, was that we spent a lot of time with these children too much.

And that caused me to reflect on the fact that maybe we intensely bonded with them in a very particular way.

And I guess what this baby moon is offering is not just the prospect of more one on one time.

But more freedom, because that is what we missed during that time.

The ability to take our kid to the.

Cafe for their first baby Chino wasn't even possible.

So I kind of love this idea.

Now I read this piece, I loved it too.

I thought what was interesting was how there's this undercurrent of like shame about doing it.

Not shame, shame is probably the wrong word, but it's kind of like this secret thing that people are doing and they're not really putting a name on it.

Why do you think that is?

Is it?

Because it's kind of flies in the face of like get kids off to school and get back to work.

Yeah, I think that's what it is.

I think Amy even said in the piece that her husband was guilty of saying it to her, despite the fact he was very you know, involved with their children.

He was kind of like, oh, you'll have so much more time once our youngest is at school, and the implication of that is that you're going to go back and do a lot more work, you know, you'll put your foot on the accelerator.

Now you've got them through those little years, and now you're going to be working so much harder.

But that doesn't have to be what you do.

And really nine to three is not so much time.

I would argue, it's a pretty small window.

I love a kindimoon.

It's like you never get this time back.

Yeah, and says that, but it's so so true.

Let's go on one.

How are you taking one?

Right?

The POD's going off break.

We're all taking a kindy moon.

Now, let's take one without the children.

Yeah, a mummy boon.

Yeah, speaking mummy moons.

Speaking of mums getting together, I saw this great piece this week.

There's this trend in China where single mums are moving in together.

Oh cool.

They're not moving in together romantically, it's strategically they're teaming up to survive life together because of divorce rates are really high and cost of living is also quite insane.

So on that they have like a version of Instagram TikTok.

Mums are going on there and posting things like hey, I'm drowning.

Does anyone want to co live and co parent together?

Like bonus points if our kids are the same age, so that they can entertain each other while we can occasionally eat.

There's no proper, proper like sociological data on it, but apparently it's everywhere.

Like there are thirty million single mums in China, so the whole two mum, one household thing just seems quite cool.

I'm into it.

The reason why I loved this story was because it prompted me to look into the phenomenon of single mums in China and the stigma that they face.

And it turns out that until twenty sixteen, you basically couldn't have a.

Child on your own in China.

It wasn't like it was the law, but the problem was you couldn't get a birth certificate for your child unless the authorities cited a wedding certificate between you and a man.

And in twenty sixteen they kind of had to stop doing that for one reason, which was that people weren't having enough kids.

So if there were motivated.

Mums who wanted to have a baby on their own, the government basically said, okay, fine, we'll let you do it.

We'll sort of cast a blind eye over it and let you do it.

But there's still a lot of stigma around it.

So whether or not these mums are single mums because they chose to do it from birth or because they got a divorce.

Apparently divorce rates are rising as the society itself gets richer, single moms are exploding there as a demographic and they're overcoming that stigma that is still just very prevalent.

Yeah, it's a great idea too, Like I'm seeing that more and more in the culture.

Like they're referred to as mum munes.

So all these mums will move in together to raise the kids, and don't you feel like you're kind of seen them mum munes like mom mu okay, yeah, marm mune.

Sorry I should pronounce it with an American accents, mom munes.

Yeah, Where they're all moving in together, and it is kind of that thing that you think, like if you go out with friends and there's a million kids, Like it's hectic as but it's almost easier sometimes, so they form their own little environment.

Children become just sort of a rogue gangues run around it somehow works.

Yeah, I love it.

What a great idea, I reckon that's awesome.

I want to talk about something that's really hard to talk about.

But this podcast is.

Meant to be about what parents are thinking about, and we want to put what you're thinking about in words.

And this is something that I happen to know that many parents in my circle are thinking about right now.

So here goes an.

Article in the Free Press this last week really put a shape around some feelings that I've been having of discomfort to do with the press tour for the second Wicked movie, which is called Wicked for Good.

You've seen this press tour, You've seen lots of images of it and lots of stories about it.

In fact, we talked about it on Mama Mia out Loud this week.

The stars of that movie are, of course Ariana Grande and Cynthia Arrivo, and they have been traveling the world promoting what is the biggest movie in the world right now.

Wicked for Good has topped the Australian box office.

It's the second biggest opening this year after guess what the other movie was, of course, the Minecraft movie, which I know way too much about, And so they've been doing a lot of press and this article points out that Ariana Grande looks as fragile on screen as a porcelain doll.

She says, if my daughter sees this movie.

Kara Kennedy is the author of this piece in the Free Press.

It's called in Wicked, There's a very thin elephant in the room.

Kara Kennedy says, if my daughter sees this movie, will this be the body she feels she has to grow into?

And that just stopped me in my tracks because I had been feeling this discomfort and I didn't quite know how to put it into words, but that is exactly it.

Now.

I want to put up some guardrails around this conversation.

I am not going to concern troll here.

I don't know what's going on with Ariana Grande or Cynthia Arrivo, and it is even less of my business what is going on with those two women.

But as a parent, it would be disingenuous of me to say that I am not concerned at the trend in Hollywood more generally towards increasingly smaller bodies, particularly amongst women.

And look, as parents, we're constantly having to ask this question of what cultural messages do I want my child to absorb?

Who do I want my child to look up to?

Who are the heroes and heroines in the culture that I want them to really be thinking about and fixating on.

And I have to say that I am feeling as a parent who grew up in the nineties and who watched heroin Sheek happen, I'm seeing this trend and celebration of thinness and smallness come back in a way that it hasn't been here in the culture since then, and it is concerning to me.

So I guess I wanted to kick off by saying, are you feeling this discomfort too?

Yeah?

Yeah, I definitely am.

And if I'm really honest with myself, thinking about when I sat in that cinema and watched that movie, there was a tiny voice in the back of my head who's always been there, and I've been working very hard to get rid of her.

Said, God, I wish I was that small.

You know, maybe not that small, but God, I wish I was tinier.

And that's coming from someone I'm mid size.

I'm six foot two.

I take up a lot of space physically, but it's something that we have grown up with our entire lives.

And I felt like we had come so far, Like I felt like the dial on this had finally shifted, Like we grew up with magazines.

I worked in magazines in a time when you know, the covers were Jessica Simpson's you know, body as being huge when she was a size ten, or you know, the covers that always did the best were half their size or plastic surgery.

It's always been fixated on looks.

And I feel like we went so far in the other direction, in a really good way.

We were moving towards bodies just being bodies and seeing a lot of different bodies in the culture and that being great, and it very much is feeling now like that is backsliding, and so it's hard to grapple with.

You know, millennials have a really warped view.

So we're trying to fix it for ourself so that we can then fix it for our children and make sure they don't grow up with that voice.

But how do you do that when the people they're presented with in the culture all.

Look one way and that way is small?

And I think it's important in this conversation that we're saying we're not talking about women who are naturally thin.

People are in all different sized bodies, and it's not women who are in naturally smaller bodies where this conversation has stemmed from as people who've lost a dramatic amount of weight from their starting point, and that's where the concern comes in.

Mon's you mentioned when we were talking about this that Disney princesses have undergone a recalibration as part of this move towards body positivity or body neutrality, but that seems to have backslid as well.

What fries my brain about this is that it feels like, not long ago, we had good, strong role models for girls, and Disney gave us kind of Moana who could kick down a door, and Raya who had biceps, and they gave us Meritor from Brave, and they were these girls who were strong and powerful and mustli.

And the women in in Canto as well, like being able to lift houses.

Like it's so good, yes.

And now it does feel like suddenly Hollywood is like hang on, Like what if we go back to extremely thin and delicate and then you're told that you're not allowed to comment on it.

Everything is fine, there's no beauty standards here, like move along, no one look at this.

It's fine, it's fine, but yeah, here was the problem, Like there was this study.

A while ago, I read an article in The Guardian that talked about how Disney characters are messing up body imaging girls like in Frozen, Anna's eyes are wider than her wrists.

So when we are trying to teach girls to take up space to be strong and powerful, my question is what's going on more broader culturally, because are we losing the appetite for big, big bodies, big personalities, big stories.

And this is not an wi could isolated thing.

We are seeing this across a lot of strands of culture where women, as you said, Amelia, are getting smaller.

And is it a Hollywood thing?

Is it a beauty standard thing?

Tell me this is too long of a boat to draw, But is it also a treadwife thing.

There's this reduction of women to being smaller, to shrinking down, to getting back in the home, to being more domesticated that just feels kind of like really opposite to what we were talking about ten years ago.

I mean, part of what's going on, I think is weight loss injections and the technology that has progressed to the point where those are more widely available.

But I think that the deeper question is a really good.

One man's about why we are seemingly celebrating an ever smaller female body, just after we had a decade celebrating body positivity.

That feels like a fever dream.

Now it feels really far away.

I wanted to stress test whether or not this is even the problem that we seem to think it is, and look into whether maybe I'm projecting onto children or my body neuroses when I say that I feel discomfort about very small female celebrities.

Maybe I'm bringing a lot of nonsense into it that children aren't.

They Yeah, like, are they even perceiving it when they watch?

Are they even thinking that's exactly very skinny?

Okay, I've got a question for both of you.

When was the first time you realized or you thought my body's not right?

I don't really remember, but what I can tell you is that there was a comprehensive study done of this in Australia quite recently, and the age which kids start to become vulnerable to body image dissatisfaction is eight eight.

So I'm not projecting.

You're not projecting the feelings that you feel as a grown woman watching these bodies and feeling bad about them is something that children as young as eight are feeling.

And by the way, this will surprise no one, girls tend to be more dissatisfied than boys with their bodies starting at eight.

I remember vividly the moment I had that thought of, Oh, my body's not the right body to have.

And it was the Sweet Valley High books.

Do you remember those?

I reckon.

I would have been eight or nine reading those, and it was Jessica and Elizabeth, the blonde, blue eyed, athletic, tanned twins, and I was reading it, absorbing it and thinking I'm not any of that, and so therefore I'm wrong, and it is.

It was that eight or nine year old, and that has stayed with me.

Those Sweet Valley High twins have got a lot to ask once.

That's so interesting that you could develop those feelings when you were reading a book.

I think that really challenges the idea that kids are only getting these messages visually, like they're clearly getting them from all directions, from all parts of the culture.

Arguably, it might be more powerful getting it from a book, because with a book, you have to create a vision in your mind's eye as you're reading, So maybe the message is deeper I don't know, So.

The question becomes what to do about it, because you know the knee joke response would be, well, I guess I should never mention appearance to my children, particularly not to my children if one of them is a girl, and I guess I should never compliment on her appearance.

I should tell her that she looks strong, not pretty.

But that frustrates me because it's also.

Disingenuous to pretend like appearances don't play a role.

In our culture.

We reward people for putting an effort into their appearance.

You wouldn't show up to a job interview wearing you know, your workout clothes from yesterday that you haven't washed.

You wouldn't show up not brushing your hair.

It's not setting your kids up for success to pretend like appearances are not an important part of how they are received when they go out into the wider world.

So I looked into what the experts are saying.

The Victorian government has a better Health website that lists a number of ways in which we're meant to help promote a positive body image with children, and the point that made the most sense to me was you have to help your children consume media in a more savvy way ask them to and encourage them to develop a critical mind about why it is that women at this very point in history are being encouraged to take up less space.

Kind of interesting, right, given the broader political moves.

That are happening now.

I'm not suggesting you, tal an eight year old, the rise of fascism worldwide is connected to the fact that women are being asked to take up less space.

But I think you can start to plant the seeds pretty early about that stuff.

They're only being asked to take a less space in certain areas like put the Tillies on the TV with their AFLW TV, and they are the role models of strong, fierce, muscular, powerful women.

Maybe it's that balance of yeah, wicked is one thing, and pop culture and Hollywood is one thing, but what else can we look at and consume that is not that.

It feels like our focus on body positivity and that messaging of not talking about women's bodies or not talking about any body's bodies has been something that's been drilled into us.

Like I know, as you said, Amelia, you kind of go you have to tell your children that they're strong, not beautiful, and you have to talk about their internal qualities, not their external qualities.

But what that's done is mean that this conversation is really difficult for people to have and they feel really scared to say anything, because, of course, we don't want to make someone feel bad about their appearance at whatever size, whatever appearance they are, of course we don't, but by not talking about it, we are normalizing people being unhealthy.

So we do need to say something.

But I think it's important that in these conversations we're not blaming the player.

We're blaming the game.

Because these celebrities, of course are making us feel bad about ourselves, but they are also part of an industry that they're desperately trying to keep up with.

They're trying to keep up with each other, so they're kind of victims in the situation as well.

I was also thinking about why why particularly this Wicked movie rankles everyone, because it does feel like this is a conversation that's being had globally.

And do you remember in Tom Hanks the movie that he did cast Away, where he had to lose an extreme amount of weight, and the way that that was positioned is very different to what this is being positioned as and I was just like, that's an interesting difference between the way that a man would lose an extreme amount of weight for a role and then these women who also look very thin.

In my mind, I was like, Monique tom Hanks lost the weight for a role that demanded it.

The storyline was a man abandoned, you know, on a island, and this is the Princess myth.

This is skinniness as a fairy tale, and I think that's where the problem lies.

So, having discussed all of this, are you going to take your kids to see this movie?

Would you feel comfortable taking them to see it?

And how would you talk to them about it afterwards?

Yeah?

I would feel comfortable taking them to see it.

I don't think I would mention it.

I think I would remain completely body neutral, because that's what we need to aim for, don't we.

Body The problem is that that study shows that, Look, if your kid is eight, we now know that they're not potentially just being body neutral about what they're seeing.

Yeah, do you think that they'll notice if they're thinking about the storyline and following on the storyline is it?

Are they actually going to notice?

Well?

What I can say is that my kids watched the first Wicked movie recently, and that movie has a very interesting and relevant message to this conversation, because the reason why Cynthia Rivo's character Alphaba is so mean is because she was made to feel bad for being green, for having green skins.

And that message is so powerful and simple that I checked with my five year old whether she got that message.

Yep, she got that message that you should not tease someone or make someone feel.

Bad for looking different.

So it's kind of interesting that that is the message of these movies, to look beyond the surface, to not judge someone on their appearance.

And I guess what we're asking our kids to do is extend that to the size of the people in the movie.

Yeah, that's all we can do.

And of course we've got links in the show notes if any of the topics we've spoken about have raised anything for you.

And anyone else.

Noticed that matching family Christmas pajamas everywhere this year.

I'm surprised you're not wearing yours or anyone.

To be honest, I just changed.

Come on, it's almost there.

So Target is in on it, I mean came out in on it.

Every year.

Cotton On's in on it, Audi is, but now Skims are as well, and it's just kind of ubiquitous.

And I read this great article in a fashion industry magazine that said that in the US it used to be the domain of really fancy brands.

It was kind of like a nice to have thin a very few families did.

But now that we live our lives on social media, Matching Christmas jarmis is this multi billion dollar industry and it's built on basically one thing.

Yeah, and you know it's hit the zeitgeist.

Yeah, once Skims does it, right, Like, that's when you know it has hit peak hysteria if Skims is doing it.

But it's all just basically for this one thing, and that is parents wanting to look like a functional family for one photo on Christmas morning.

Basically, are we still buying matching jarmis to try and buy the feeling of togetherness and that we've got it together for social media?

One hundred percent?

I bought them the first year, and I was the most cynical person before having a kid.

I was like, oh, cringe.

And then the first year I was like, look at us, We're so together and cute and matching.

I thought it was great, so I have fallen for it.

What print do you have for this year?

I haven't done them this year.

I'm tossing up whether I'm going to subject my family to them again, because I asked my daughter and she went, no, I don't think so.

So that's the thing to kins like them?

Or is it really for adults to put onto Instagram?

I totally think it's for us to feel like we're you know, wonderful, We're in control, you know, united family.

Right, missus Claus over here?

Yeah, what pajamas do you have for your family?

I ordered my Christmas pajamas on the September the twelfth.

I had them, and then I I am nothing.

Less and once I want to know, I went the Target Bluis.

The reason why I got in early was because last year I decided I was going to be a Christmas Jarmy's family.

I left my run too late and I couldn't get the sizes that I wanted.

So this year I was like, right, I'm going to be first in, so I get the nice matching ones and the sizes I want.

The bit I hate is that you've ironed No, that's the bit nonsense.

Oh my god, come on.

So, Emelia, you weren't here last night.

But I look, I was throwing things at my phone when Mon's told us how much she loves Iron I.

Know, which is so weird and Mon's I need to tell you I got a message from one of our lovely listeners saying she stands with me on the hanging hack and that you need to get on board.

So there you go.

You're hearing it from our own audience.

Just put them on a hanger, shake it out.

It's fine, Anti, don't mind.

I saved yourself from John.

It just makes everything so crisp and nice like.

It's just takes your close to another level, doesn't it.

Sorry, you're about to sleep in the mons, get a grip.

You don't tie them.

It's fine.

Actually, no, for the Instagram photo, you do need to iron them.

That's fair, Amelia.

Are you a Christmas jarmy family?

Oh, I'll give you one guess.

Of course, I'm not.

All I see when I see them is land Phil.

I need to take the place of our supreme leader, Luke Levine under Consumption King and tell you that Christmas pajamas discussed me.

You're gonna wear them for what a month and then the kids are going to outgrow them next year.

I can't get on board with that.

My husband's been wearing his now for four years straight, so I beg to differ.

So commuch on Amelia.

He loves the part with them, But Amelia, they need new armies at that time of year, like the season changes, and they do need a new pairt So why not just get a pair with Father Christmas on it?

Because I think there's something very sort of sad about wearing Christmas pajamas in February, Like it just feels like leaving a Christmas tree up for too long.

Are you going to allow your children to wear their Christmas pajamas after Christmas?

Keep that spirit going all year round.

I mean they've been wearing them since centers, so they've gotten them wear out of them.

One of the things I didn't realize would come up as much as it has since having a child is talking about the age gap, and not like of the couple, like the age gap of the kids in the family.

So you know, you get a lot of the yeah, I had.

Two under two, or they've got a three point five year age gap, and it's wonderful for us.

Oh, Yeah, it's this real, like Marker, isn't it.

It's a thing.

It's people who have a three and a half year age gap.

I feel like do had that tone of voice.

Yeah, they think they got the perfect the perfect gap.

Well I've got news for them.

There was a post circulating this week claim that the five to six year age gap is actually better and healthier for mothers and happier.

Childress made me feel really bad when you sent it to me, I.

Went, well, there goes my children.

No, no, don't feel bad because I've looked into it all.

But it just it made me realize how passionate people are about this topic.

Because there are a lot of people in the comments who will make you feel better, Amelia, because some people were saying that they loved that big gap, because they'd say, you know, I felt like I had an extra person to look after me.

But then there are.

Also a lot of them saying we were such different ages, like we never were bonded in the way that closer siblings are and what you get from being really close in age to your brother or sister.

So I had to look into.

This to see like, what is the research around this, what is meant to be, because don't you feel like people who had and I feel like you two are both in this category three under three or two under two, or even Irish twins, like you wear it as a badge of honor because you've been in the trenches, Like that's hard, you've been through it.

So do you feel like there is a old standard age gap?

First?

Before I get into what they say about it, Look.

I think I didn't have a choice in the matter.

I got married fairly late in the game, comparatively late, and then had kids quickly because I felt like that was the message I got, have kids as young as you feasibly can.

But it kind of makes sense that with a bigger age gap you can invest more attention and emotional resources in each child, and that they're probably going to be less competitive with each other.

Yeah.

Yeah, I've had my drothers.

I probably would have gone for a five or six year age gap.

Unfortunately it wasn't on the cards.

Mons.

I just feel like researchers need to get something else to research, because I just don't see the point of any of this, like because you can't control it.

Fertility is such a difficult thing for so many people and then to have researchers come along and say, oh, but here's the perfect way to do it.

Shut up, like, we will do it when it happens.

You just can't control everything, like just stop, go study something else exactly.

And that's the with people talking about planning age gaps.

But I find really interesting you can't control it, like you really got.

I mean, some people can, good for them, but most people cannot control it like you.

So many factors come into that.

As you said, age infertility.

Funny, it reminds me of the discourse about when it's the perfect age for a woman to have a child.

Yeah, And I remember when I was younger and was not in a position to have a child, feeling like I was being hammered over the head with this idea that I should have had a child younger.

I should have had a child before I turned thirty, I should have had a child before I turned thirty two.

I'm like, I don't have any choice in this.

I can't do this right now, So why are you making me feel bad?

It kind of reminds me of that exactly.

Well, that's why I'm going to make you feel better about this month.

I'm gonna make passionate mad stacy because when you sent me this article and I felt my feelings, I was like, I'm going to look up this research.

Guess what.

I couldn't find it.

So I saw this clip on social media.

I saw heaps of US radio station talking about it.

I saw someone else talking about it.

You know, it's everywhere, and I was like, oh, that's interesting.

I'm going to fat check this this Scandinavian study.

I could not find this Scandinavian study.

I'm like, is this whole thing made up?

Like is it just engagement farming on social media to say hey, we saw this study and then comment comment, comment, comment, you're.

Right, that is exactly what it did and made people go into this frenzy trying to justify what they had in their situation or what they grew up with with their siblings.

So I wanted to actually look at like what is it?

Is this actually anything at all?

And doctor Kara Goodwin wrote this really good substack where she went through all the research.

There are things that are super obvious ones like you're going to go yeah, of course, like research on children that are closer in age, the parents are more likely to be stressed and they're more likely to get divorced.

Wow's glad someone got a PhD.

Yeah, Like, I think we could have figured that one out ourselves.

And then there's ones about how children with a bigger age gap in their relationship with their sibling they tend to have more ada and like a caring factor for those kids, but ones that are in the closer group that are like two years or less, they're closer overall in life generally, like because they've grown up at that similar milestone, they're doing things together at the same time.

And then there's also other ones about developmental outcomes.

So yes, it does say generally, if you've got kids further apart, they probably will have better developmental outcomes because the parents they weren't so depleted, they had more time to give to focus on multiple children.

But none of that research considers what is best for your family overall.

And even the doctor herself he went through all of this research, said, despite loving research, she did not factor any of it into her own decision making.

You just have to do what works and when it happens.

Well, a question of like best age gap for whom, because you've largely focused here on best age gap in terms of children's outcomes.

Yeah, but for instance, in terms of maternal health outcomes, it turns out there is kind of an established gold standard which is twenty seven to thirty two months, because that's how long it takes a woman's body to fully recover from childbirth and breastfeeding.

Yeah, but that's a very different question to best developmental.

Outcome, and you might just go having to go back to the start and do nappies and night feeds after a five to six year gap where you've been out of that phase mentally, to go back into that that seems so I head off to those parents because that seems like a real mind trip.

Yeah.

If the research says, if the legit research says that bigger gaps mean happier mums and better developmental outcomes for kids, then why does the culture reward parents you have three under three or four and five?

Like, why are we all just like, oh, is it like a resilience thing?

Is it?

Like?

Wow?

Is it this like knowingness?

Like shouldn't we be going that's terrible for the outcomes for your children?

But instead we clap, we applaud, we yeah.

Yeah, we do look at it and go wow, like you have really gone through it, like you are doing it the harder way, but they're also doing it the smarter way because then you just got those trenches out of the way simultaneously and you move on.

It's cheaper.

Yeah, yeah, it would be a lot of hard me downs.

So who's who's smarter?

Now?

Do you know who's not smarter?

I used AI to tell me what thirty two months was in years, because it's you know, like when parents say, oh, yeah, this is my child, but twenty three months old and you're like, what, just tell me their age.

It's two years and eight months.

You go, I love you getting fashionate once.

Fuck the research, Fuck helping anyone.

This research, the fake research go to something else.

So from unhelpful research to helpful recommendations.

This is the part of the show where we bring you the things that we've seen, we've read, we've watched, we've bought, we've loved, and we tell you about it.

It's not sponsored, it's never sponsored.

These are genuine things that we love today.

Ladies, you know I am missus Christmas.

Sure.

I'm bringing you a boomer relic that you may have never heard of, but you need it in your life.

It's called the Lions Christmas Cake.

Were these are the ones in the Muslin?

Are they those ones?

No?

No, no, they come in a cart.

Has There's got a lot of dried fruit, isn't it?

Because there's so I call bullshit, so much dried fruit, that's so much strid fruit.

So the Lions Christmas Cake only appears once a year, and it always appears in random places like banks and post offices and sometimes a chemist.

And they sell out really quickly.

So there's this scarcity element to these.

I'm telling you, if you see.

One, it's like limited a dish.

Buy it.

They are so good.

These fruitcakes are elite level.

My recommendation is to buy two of them.

I'll tell you why in a moment.

But the money goes to Lions, which is like this boomer community club and they support community projects and let me tell you they're not gonna be around for much longer.

Right, These kind of like wholesome community groups, Like who's joining that as a gen z No, this is making me feel really yeah, support them and keep the Lions going.

The Lions are great.

They are great.

So that's my hot tip by yourself to Lions Christmas Cakes because they won't be around like in probably twenty years.

I'm sorry if anyone.

Because the boomers are shuffling off their mortal coil.

Yeah yeah, and like that's real.

One's I know, I've never eaten a fruit cake in my life.

You oh my god, Okay, you haven't lived good.

They're so good, Stacey.

Do you have it with some cream or something on it?

But you only have just small pieces because it's very sweet.

But here's my hot tip.

This is such an old person's recommendation, but by two, so that you've got one to eat at home when people pop in or whatever.

But the second one is when you know when someone's.

Like, sorry, people are popping in on you.

Are you're a grandmother who was popping in on you?

This is Christmas?

She probably has a full display, Amelia.

Seriously, no one has ever popped in before.

Get out this again.

This is your Sydney life.

This is Adelaide's small country town vibes.

Here we pop in.

So here's my hot tip.

If you have to take a plate somewhere, you know, Christmas, someone's having a thing, You're like, shit, I got to take some food.

You just slice up the small pieces of your lines Christmas cake, add some cherries fresh cherries, and then just like a few chocolates, well crowd pleasers.

It takes about four seconds, zero thinking time to assemble.

It relies on people liking fruitcake.

But I think as you become in your forties you do start to like fruitcakes.

The fiber, isn't it got a lot of fiber.

That reminds me of another limited edition Christmas sweet that I used to love, which you can't get anymore.

Have either of you.

Ever eaten the Darryl Lee Christmas Puddings Little New Guy Puddings genuinely the most delicious thing I've ever eaten.

I used to get one every Christmas under the Christmas Tree little box from dary Lee, But now that Daryl is basically gone, you can't get them anymore.

No, you can get the Rocky Road.

That's great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well you better have your Christmas cake ready.

I'm going to pop round me, don't pop over.

I got it from the chemist this year.

In fact, I went to the chemist and I said are you getting them this year?

And then I made the woman text to you when they came in.

Wow, something to try something delicious when you buy that the chemist.

Yea, yeah, Amelia, what are you recommending?

As you know, I'm a celebrated and renowned artiste, I'm no one for my rock art and you know I'm just very artistic.

So I went to a kid's workshop.

I tracked my kid to a kids you wanted to go to.

It was meant to be for the kids, but I was like, can I just sit next to the kid to supervise the kid?

And then of course I ended up doing the workshop.

It was a pop up book workshop and it was with the Australian illustrator Freeda Chew, who's amazing.

Her work is so joyful and exuberant.

She wrote this book, A Trip to the Hospital, a picture book.

If anyone's come across it, and she was teaching the kids how to make their own little like pop up scenes.

The kids tea.

I was just run there.

But I learned about these things from her called Posca paint markers.

Have you ever heard of it?

Yes?

No, they're the best, but they're expensive.

On the best, they're not that expense.

You can get a set of eight for thirty five dollars from office works, which of course I did the best way I can describe these is that they kind of like paint in a pen, so they really go on to the page like paint, but there isn't the messive page.

And miraculously that they don't have any kind of weird smell.

I feel like so many texters have a weird smell that makes you think it has microplastics in it.

These do not have a weird smell.

They were invented in Japan in the nineteen eighties, and apparently they're very popular with graffiti artists because they can draw on any surface.

So I guess that's a little bit of a warning to people.

They really can draw on any surface, but they work wonderfully on paper and I just love drawing with them, and sometimes I even persuade my children to draw Amelia.

Are you getting the fine tipped ones or are they like a fat tea?

No?

I love a fat texture, a really fat text, A juicy fruitcake and a fat texture.

That's what this show offers you.

And is it satisfying doing because you have to shake them and they metal.

I love when they make that.

I'm so saturated the color.

They're really fun.

Can I come over and do No, you can't come over, Stacey, I get over.

I mean I'm getting a cup of teas some fruitcake.

Oh, bring a plate, It's fine popping for a posca and a piece of cake.

I'm sad they don't have the toxic smell.

I love to sniff a text.

Yeah, everyone's got their vices.

Your ironing and snipping texters.

That's pretty good, actually.

The Stacey, what have you got this week?

Okay, I've got a show that has brought me so much joy.

I find it hard to watch a full episode of TV without falling asleep.

At night by the time I actually get to watch your partner get really mad at you.

Yeah, mine's always like you've betrayed.

But that's why I found my own little show and let him go off and watch his shows while I watched this show.

Because I love it, and so many people have started talking about it.

I don't know how it's gotten this ground swell.

I don't think it even aired here.

It's on ten play, so it's all free, Like, you can watch it on ten play.

Ten plays also got South Park, which sod.

So the show is Celebrity Traders UK.

So The Traders is a show that's been on TV.

Okay, I have to admit something.

I keep hearing traders, Traders, What is this is.

Like a drama?

What?

No?

So it's kind of like The Mole.

Did you ever watch it The Mole?

Probably not.

You were probably in the US when the Mole was out.

Do you remember the Mole?

Mons?

I never watched it.

A cast of people.

It's like a reality show, like a Survivor Vibe where someone gets voted out every day he gets plotting.

Yeah, it's a game.

It's a game.

Yeah, it's a game.

But they all go in not knowing who the traders are and they will get tapped on the shoulder in one of the first dinner parties and told you're the trader.

So it's like a murder mystery party.

Okay, so there's three traders.

The rest of them are called faithful.

But what are they doing during the day apart from being traded?

They do challenges and then the traders call challenges physical challenges or like puzzles or things where they've got to work together to a time and it takes money in and out of the prize pool.

So they're like invested in getting this money.

So on the celebrity version doesn't matter if you don't know any of these celebrities, like it actually doesn't matter, but there are ones you'll know.

So there's like Stephen Fry, Alan Carr, Jonathan Ross is in it, Celia Imri who was in like she's been in Mama Mia and The Best Exotic Marigold.

They tell, yeah, like you'll know the movie.

So there's all these cast members in this one, and they're playing for charity in this.

So apparently the normal version is a lot more cutthroat because they're playing celebrity.

It is so funny.

I won't give away who gets picked as the traders, but the people who get picked as the traders, You're like, how are you going to get away with this?

Like, how are you not going to admit it?

You're fearing into spoiler and you've almost sold me.

It's brilliant watch it.

It's only nine episodes, so it's not a big commitment.

You can cut the episodes in half like I often do when I fall asleep and come back to it.

It's just lovely, wholesome TV.

Because I'm a sheep and I do everything you tell me.

I watched this on your recommendation, and I there's two things that I love about it.

Number one is that it was free to watch.

I was like, oh god, what streaming service is this going to be on that I don't have?

Oh no, it's on Tenplay great.

Secondly, it is so entertaining, like I was laughing out loud, so and just watching people unravel in real time is so so entertaining.

So thank you.

It's exactly what I need at this time of year.

The host, Gardia Winkleman, is so dramatic.

Claudia Winkman, Claudia, sorry, Claudia Winkleman.

She is so dramatic, but in the funniest way.

So she'll come in every morning and go, well, that person's been murdered, like obviously they've not been murdered.

It's so ridiculous how they do it.

But it's great.

And her hair and her fit and her eyelin.

I'm obsessed.

She's so I can't take you fabulous.

I just got it bone to pick with you.

You said you do everything Stacey recommends.

Yeah, you don't.

And you except for the rock painting, I haven't done that.

I was about to ask, no rock painting yet, none whatsoever.

Yeah, but I saw a rock painting kit in the reject Shop because you go in there all the time.

So I went and yeah, still painting a bit more time with your beloved reject shop.

But I had that thing where I saw the rock painting kit and I was like, I can just get rocks out of the garden and use my post.

Why would I do this?

All right, that is all we have time for this week on Parenting out Loud.

Hey a quick heads up for Black Friday, Mum and MEA has dropped their biggest discount of the year on a subscription, So right now you can get twenty one bucks off of a yearly subscription.

That brings it down to just forty eight bucks for a whole year.

And like, what do you get?

You get every podcast, you get every story, the giveaways, the move fitness app, and finally you can be one of those people who hears the juicy out Loud subscriber episodes all year.

But you have to be quick, like, if you want in on this, hit the link in our show notes and grab it before it disappears.

The offer ends at eleven fifty nine pm on the first of December, so if you blink, you're going to miss it.

So jump on board A big thanks to our team, Junior content producer Tessa Kotovic, our senior producer Leah Porges and Executive producer Sashatanic and the group ep is Ruth de Vine.

Have a great week.

We'll be back in this feed next Saturday morning.

Bye bye, Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.