Max Max Utmost.

Zoe, I can't stop thinking about 1900 mix a lot.

Oh man, that curses me.

It's like, I don't know if you've seen Twin Peaks, but they go to a lodge and then they walk away changed.

Like they're not the same anymore.

Sometimes they've got a doppelganger, sometimes they've got a triple ganger.

I AM 19, 100 mix allotted.

I don't know if you know what that means, but I if I explain it, maybe it'll be like a cathartic expunging of the toxins of mix a lot that are coursing through my veins.

Maybe I don't know, 1900 mix a lot.

I don't think I know.

I'm hoping that by you telling me about it, it doesn't like surface some sort of repressed memory of some sort.

So oh.

Man, that's what happened to Diane and Twin Peaks season 3, so to speak.

And you are the Diane to my Cooper.

I guess I don't know who I am or what's going on, but I will tell you that just hearing you say 1900 mix a lot, it helped like it, it was a healing touch.

Whether you meant it to or not.

You were like I, I pictured your metaphorical hand resting on my shoulder and being like, it's OK, 1900 mix a lot.

Where do you feel less alone?

I hope that's not me absorbing your trauma or something.

Because I don't want it.

No kidding.

Yeah, but there's ways to not so much absorb, but kind of dilute and diffuse to get rid of that trauma.

Sir makes a lot crowned or or knighted by I don't know who was a man, a MIDI, a mediocre man who splashed onto the scene in the 1990s and just announced that he likes big butts.

And it was sort of a, I don't know, a, a revelation, a revolution of sorts of what butts were allowed to be liked.

Because prior to that, Cosmo said you're fat and he ain't down with that, is what Sir Mix a Lot said.

This is a rap song.

Yeah, yeah, I know this song.

I don't remember that well.

I don't know, like the lyrics to the song very well.

I just remember.

Oh my God, Becky, look at her.

But.

Which was so good, you know, don't get me wrong, the parody of it's like a punching up parody of the prevailing beauty standards of the time.

Women making fun of black women for for having bigger butts.

But he ends the song towards the end and says, ladies, if the butt is round and you want to triple X, slow down, dial 1900, mix a lot and kick them.

Nasty thoughts.

At least that's what I remember I'm saying.

And it's like, OK, 900 numbers cost money.

It's it's not free.

It's not even cheap.

It's like $3 a minute or something.

And a lot of people had 900 numbers at the time.

MC Hammer, I believe his is 1909-O9 MCMC.

You see commercials for it all the time.

You just dial it.

And it would be like MC Hammer being like, damn, whatever.

Actually, he didn't swear, did he?

He was, he did at first, but then he turned it around for the family friendly audiences.

Like he did that the Adam's Groove, Addams family values.

Who are we talking?

About MC Hammer or mix a lot.

All of the above and also none in particular at the same time.

And then Fresh Prince had his own 900 number, which I don't remember off the top of my head.

Anyway, Zoe, if your butt was round and you wanted to triple X slow down, would you dial 1900 mix a lot to kick your nasty thoughts as opposed to just, you know, hugging and kissing somebody?

Like why would that be the choice that he's encouraging those to make to pay him money through his 900 number to triple X?

Slow down via nasty thoughts and not actual love and affection.

Well, luckily I don't have that problem, yeah.

Thank you for disclosing that's, that's a tricky 1.

I, I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I also, I, my butt is a little round, I think, but it's mostly just like a, a Minecraft block, you know, like if you hit it too many times with a hammer, it just turns into a small block you can put in your pocket.

It's not actually good for much.

Just shatters into a few miscellaneous butts that you can then use to craft.

Butt craft.

Jonathan I I hate to interrupt and put you on blast, but the actual lyric is you want a triple X throw down.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was a slow down.

I Yeah.

I wonder what the subtle distinction might be between a slow down and a throw down.

I think a throw down means you're you're getting down to business.

Yeah, I don't know, throw down to me is a fist fight.

No, that makes so much more sense.

Like what does it now?

He's saying that you have to call him to fuck.

Oh, so it's just his phone number?

1900 mix a lot is his personal phone number.

He comes running or he buys you the plane tickets.

I'm not sure what his strategy is there.

Yeah.

He's no longer with us I think, so we can't ask him.

I believe Sir Mix a lot passed after making ATV show for the burgeoning network.

At the time the CWI believe it was just called The Watcher where he just watched people on security cameras in a hotel being like, I can't believe this shit.

You know, just watching.

He's still.

Alive, Jonathan, you're getting all your facts right.

He survived being in the Watcher.

Can you check if he's actually in the Watcher?

Wait, the Marvel show?

Yeah, he was on a show called The Watcher.

Oh, thank God, 1995.

Yeah, thank God.

Thank God.

I didn't get that wrong.

But anyway, yeah, that's one of the many reasons that haunts me.

That song.

The other one is he also says I'm tired of magazines.

And every time I work on Nintendo Force and start to write a new article for the magazine, I'm like, oh shit, he's tired of magazines.

Everyone's tired of magazines.

What is anyone going to read this?

Is there any point?

Zoe, you've written for Nintendo Force.

Did that ever haunt you before?

Not really.

OK, well, get ready because it's in there now.

What's in there?

Butts.

You're putting butts in Nintendo Force.

Oh, the thought that Sir Mix a lot is tired of magazines.

Of course, the next line is that flat butts are the thing.

Tired of magazine saying flat butts are The thing is.

So as long as you don't say flat butts are the thing in the magazine, he won't be tired of it.

Well, I think he's tired of seeing like models with flat butts in magazines.

Like he wants rounder butted models for him to enjoy magazines.

Right.

And we can do that in our magazine, I bet.

Magazines do not align with his interests, which seem to begin and end with large butts.

He says Cosmo says you're fat.

And I always wanted Steven Spielberg, no Jerry Seinfeld, similar but different characters in my life to to impersonate that part.

It's such a missed opportunity he could have on his show Seinfeld Co starring Michael Richards as Cosmo, Kramer said.

Cosmo says you're fat, but I ain't down with that.

Or however Seinfeld talks like.

He could have been all anxious about it, telling a woman that he likes her fat butt.

He never did it.

You know, I've gotten the impression that you're busy all the time, like you just you live a fast-paced life.

But clearly that is not the case if you have time to think.

It's like 50% Sir Mix a lot thoughts.

Like I'm very busy trying to sort out these haunting haunted thoughts of Sir Mix.

You need to kick the nasty thoughts, Jonathan.

I need to call 1800 mix a lot throw down.

Welcome everybody to another jam packed, fantastic episode of The Maximum Utcast, the official podcast of Maximum Utmost, the website that Zoe Handley created.

And let's be right on sometimes.

Zoe, how are you?

I don't let you write on sometimes you can write on it as much as you want.

You're so nice.

You've been so kind about it from the start.

I just sort of barged in whenever I'm not invited, whenever I cold e-mail somebody and be like, hey, may I?

I feel like, wow, what a kindness.

It's like I knocked on your door and it was like, can I just spend time in here?

Oh, that's not true either.

Like this was after you got rudely ejected from Destructo.

I'm like, well, you can.

You can write on my side if you want to, fully expecting that you'd say no.

And that was not the response.

You were just like, yeah, I would love to do that.

Wow, I don't this is a real Rashabad moment.

I remember emailing you but you remember emailing me.

Who emailed who we got to dig into the archives.

No, it was.

It was on Twitter DMS.

Twitter DMS, Those are very smoky to me.

I'm never sure exactly what happened in there, but I I believe it.

I believe 100% if I would could log into my Twitter account, which I cannot because it was linked to my Destructoid e-mail and Destructoid won't even bounce my old emails to my new e-mail so I can reset the e-mail and all that.

I would check those DMS, but I believe in them.

I believe in the mythology of our DM history.

If you really want to relive it, I can find it for you.

I just.

Well, yeah, we'll save that for another time.

In the meantime, we've got this show to do.

We've got Alan Ortega.

I believe Daniel may be floating around in the background.

He can confirm if that's how you.

Oh, I'm a ghost.

Today you're already in the cold open.

They know you're like God.

Damn it.

God, sorry, we've we've we temporarily exercised him but didn't actually get him exercising because that's sucks exercise the worst.

But now he's back to haunt us.

Alan Ortega.

Is that what he say?

Alan's name?

Yeah, I talked to Alan Ortega about Borderlands getting his full story about that.

He he even in the clip said this, this is my life story is is this connected to this game and.

It's just.

It was really fascinating.

And he he gets through just like the meat of it in about 10 minutes.

And he just goes like, I couldn't even get a word in edgewise because he's like, I got to say this, I got to say that.

And I'm like, whoa.

He's Borderlands.

All I know is that that guy's got a mask on.

He's like the mascot of the games, I guess.

Just a mask on Goon Guy and my old buddy Anthony Burch, who I haven't talked to in like 15 years, wrote the second one and then made-up some of the characters there like wacky Maxi or something.

I don't I, I couldn't I couldn't do it.

Just I love Anthony.

I love his writing.

I love his writing on Adventure Time particular, but the Borderlands games, I just bounced, just bounced right off them.

Couldn't, couldn't absorb it.

I think we're supposed to be talking about the guest at the end of the show.

Oh yeah.

It's a preview though, people are hot for it now and they can't wait to hear the rest.

Zoe, you've got a Kuso gay that you can share with us in the meantime.

Yes, we can.

We can do that if you're ready.

I'm ready.

I.

Can't wait to hear what it is.

All right, so if you were an American Gladiator, what would your name be?

Oh geez, Steph Sterling recently named me like the poor man's wolf or something, I can't remember.

I actually got knighted with a name of sorts, American Geladiator name.

But just like Anthony Birch and sister Ashley Birch, who I like a lot, just like their characters they created that I should know about.

I can't remember.

I can't remember what my American Geladiator name is.

So I'll just be mud.

Just come in there.

Mud.

OK, he's splashing.

Yeah.

Wet trouble.

Not bad, not bad.

Not really as you know, forceful or like energetic as you would expect from like, you know, Nitro and turbo and laser and.

Then mud.

There are minerals in the mix though.

There's like diamond.

Oh, right.

Yep.

So.

So mud is on the ground like diamonds are.

True, it's found somewhere, just like diamonds.

It is geology related, I think.

It is earth science, diamonds and mud that could be A tag team who wouldn't watch them go.

I don't know how to respond to that.

It's.

OK.

Yeah, that could be.

I would probably be called meatloaf.

What?

But then the musician would probably threaten to sue, so.

He's definitely not with us Sir Mix a lot May somehow survived the Watcher, but Meatloaf is in past the the living date.

He's now into RIP so you don't got to worry about him.

Yeah, he, well, I suppose.

I'm sure his estate still owns the name Meatloaf.

I don't know.

Probably the name Meatloaf.

That's right.

If the estate shook a lawyer at American Gladiator Corp or whoever owns it, I guess I'd be utmost.

Yeah, perfect.

Wearing the brand into another brand.

Yeah, you got a brand synergy and brand permeation.

You got to permeate and spread throughout the world.

I'm remembering that one of the producers of Rd.

Rules that I was on actually said he worked on American Gladiators.

I can't remember his name at all though to Fact Check that.

But that's what they were thinking Rd.

Rules would be.

Would they be like gladiatoring it up for the reality TV?

And now, of course, it's gone full Gladiator left and right.

People are beating the crap out of each other on those shows and starving to death on the island and all sorts of stuff.

But why?

Why is it that you're bringing up these American Gladiators?

Because we're talking about American Gladiators on the NES.

Whoa, never played it any good.

I well, I mean we wouldn't be talking about it now if it was good, OK?

It is kind of terrible.

You know, like all Kusogi, there's a mix in there.

It's set up where you have 5 events.

The five events are Wall, Human, Cannonball, Assault, Powerball and Joust.

What?

Did you ever watch the show?

I did, but not in a while.

Human wall, Did you say no.

Human cannonball wall.

Human Cannonball.

So joust is the one where they fight with the big cotton swabs.

That one I remember very well.

Pugil sticks, I believe they might be called.

Yeah, yeah.

Sure, you're the gladiator.

Mud.

So yeah, they try to knock each other off of these big podiums.

Like I think it's one of the contestants versus one of the gladiators.

Yeah.

So in the game though, however you're you're going through like a progression of them.

You'll fight one dude and try to knock him off the podium, and then you'll have to do platforming to get to the next dude.

Oh really?

So it's not just like a fighting game.

There's they're trying to make genres even within one event.

Yeah, I guess they felt that it would be kind of thin if they just focus on the one event like like the event as it is, right?

So yeah, that one isn't the worst.

It kind of feels like, do you know Kung Fu on turbo graphics?

Kung Fu Kung Fu on turbo graphics, not China Warrior.

Oh, sorry, no, it's China warrior China.

China Warrior I used to play relentlessly.

No matter how much it asked me to stop, I just would continue.

China Warrior was my jam.

Wow, OK.

That took the right out here.

Yeah, you had to be there.

The graphics were incredible.

I was a huge Bruce Lee fan.

I loved Kung Fu Master, so it was like putting it all together.

Yeah, the the dude was huge Wang.

It was a huge Wang on screen at all times.

His name is Wang.

His name is Wang.

Shows what I know.

Geez.

Yeah, and he punches rocks to just fly at him for.

What a bizarre game.

It's not like a good game, but at the time.

Well, yeah, it was impressive graphics at the time.

Like yes, like when it came out, when it came out on PC Engine, which was like 1986 or something next to the Famicom, That would have been amazing.

Exactly.

That was like against Metroid and Kid Icarus and whatnot.

Yeah, but we got like when it hit the turbo graphics that had to be like 91 or something it.

Still was kind of good.

Yeah, it wasn't amazing.

It wasn't the best turbo graphics game by a large margin.

I was mostly in the legendary acts, but anyway.

Well, just is.

Kind of like China Warrior, which in Japan was called the Kung Fu.

Right, I remember.

It's sort of like that, but you're trying to knock dudes off so.

So next there's the wall, which is or just wall it's it's basically one of those recreational climbing walls, except a big roided up muscle dude or lady would be pursuing you to grab you by the tights and throw you out the wall.

That sounds kind of good.

So the the NES version is, is OK in the sense that like you press A to move to grab or move with one hand and B to grab or move with the other.

And he had to be very careful about your hand placement.

So it kind of got the wall climbing thing across decently well.

But you get to the third level and there's this section that your person cannot fit through.

What?

Just cannot.

And I, I looked up a video of it and the person playing through the game does this weird like glitchy looking shimmy to get through it.

And I don't think that's supposed to be a technique.

I think it's a bug.

But you need to do that to get through this little section of wall, otherwise it's impossible.

So it's, it's at that point in the game that I, I had to quit.

Sure to get the Nintendo quality seal of approval or whatever.

Remember, Nintendo back then would claim to make sure games were good before they even hit the NES so well.

Really, it meant that they were licensed and they didn't.

I guess it also meant that they didn't have blood or religious imagery or swearing.

Right.

Didn't necessarily mean they were all not bug free or broken.

Clearly.

Yeah.

Like Bayou Billy made it on there.

And what was that Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, Total Recall?

Oh yeah.

I got on there what's?

Going on with that game, I want to hear about that sometime.

His head is huge.

I I will remember to bring that up because that is that is classic you so gay right there.

Yeah, painful.

So alongside those two games there was Assault, which was the best game.

It's a crime.

It's a it's good, you know, I.

Thought I heard you giggle at it.

Assault, you know, it's just.

Like I didn't add an adjective to that.

Yeah, it's just like burglary or, you know, mild larceny.

Like it's just trouble.

Well, I think it's a verb like you're assaulting like a Fort because it's the one where the the gladiator has the big Nerf gun and they had to run to different pieces of cover and grab a Nerf gun there and they had to hit a target with it.

Oh yeah, that was good.

In the show.

That was good.

Yeah, in the game it's not bad.

The gladiator is in a like moving chair cannon but still you move to cover, you grab a gun, you aim for the target and so it it's a good representation.

Sure.

Powerball is lame.

You just grab balls and put them in ball holes.

I don't know what else to say about it.

It's it is functional.

I don't think you can lose at it, which is another good part out of it.

Because in order to progress, sure.

Yeah, in order to progress in American Gladiators, you had to clear all 5 events without losing all your lives.

So it's not like Pilot Wings where you could kind of screw up on one and still continue.

It's you had to do all 5.

So Powerball, I don't think you could lose that.

You would just get fewer points if you did poorly.

But that was nice because you didn't have to play like the lamest game.

The last is Human Cannonball, which is the one you latched onto.

Yeah, it sounds the most dangerous.

Sounds like you're going to die.

It is so they they grab onto this rope and they swing into a gladiator and try to knock them off of the podium with the force of their swing and the weight of their body, their momentum.

I remember this.

This was on the show.

Yeah, yeah.

So when I heard about this, because I didn't watch American Gladiators all that much, my sister and I watched Gladiators 2000, which was like a kid version of it.

I vaguely remember that that was that was, I mean American Gladiators.

I remember being early 90s so this was a good amount later.

Somewhat like 93 because gladiators only lasted until 96.

Really.

Jeez, it was such a part of our lives.

It was.

It was dug in there.

We were all talking about it.

Yeah, well, I I guess you can only stretch that formula for so long before.

That's true, Yeah.

Unlike football, people keep watching that.

I don't understand that.

What's I don't I don't like football like I I learned the rules recently to play video games with football like football video games sure sure like it is wading through mud.

You just have to push past guys a certain point and they try to knock you down and it's just that over and over and over again.

Yeah, it's like slow, slowly walking across the field with people trying to harass you along the way.

Like it's not unlike a Mario game where you jump and you conk A koopa and you punch a wall or whatever.

It's just like, I'm still trying to walk across this field.

It's very, I don't understand.

People love it, but it's it's definitely not for me.

Like I like, I like baseball, basketball, hockey.

I obviously I like hockey because I'm Canadian.

It's part of your job.

It's on the flag, The Maple Leaf, yes.

That is.

The Maple puck.

We base that flag off of the logo of the Toronto Maple Leaf.

That's right.

That's.

That was the order and then the tree grew.

After that.

I think it was hockey, the flag and then the tree.

And then we invented the Maple tree.

Anyways, glad we got that science figured out.

Human Cannonball.

So I heard about it when I was playing this game and I'm like, wow, this seems really dangerous.

So I looked it up and apparently Malibu, one of the gladiators, his first appearance on the show, he got hit and Human Cannonball cracked his skull open.

No, really.

Malibu.

Yeah.

I had no idea that happened in Malibu.

He survived.

He was on more than one episode.

Oh he definitely survived.

This came up because they did a.

There's a documentary series about this on Netflix that's really good.

Exactly.

And that's that's where it came up is on that documentary.

Malibu.

He had black hair, no yellow hair.

He's a smiler.

He was a big happy guy, Sure.

I'm trying to remember my Malibu.

He's an American Gladiator.

Was there not to be happy about?

Well, that Nitro was very frowny, as you might recall.

I'm trying to remember the the huge guy, the biggest of the guys.

He smiled somewhat but he had a mustache so it kind of got hidden, but anywho.

That was pimple, wasn't it?

That's one of the Battletoads.

Yeah, you got it.

I got it.

That's why we're friends.

That's why we're friends.

That's the only reason.

And that's American Gladiators.

It is fine if you rent it.

Yeah, it's one of those games.

You rent it, you might have an OK weekend.

Well, I could see the curiosity, like how did they go about adapting this extremely physical real life experience of fighting these gladiators to A2 button controller GamePad experience on a video game?

So it's a, you know, curiosity factor.

Just how did they do it would definitely have been there for me.

But it sounds like what they did was it sounds like it was fine.

Like I don't know what they could have done better.

Well, they could have made wall more like possible.

Oh, like a actual game instead of a glitch?

Well, yeah, yeah.

Made it so you could actually win without figuring out some weird glitchy shimmy.

But the human cannonball was kind of fun, though, once you got the hang of it.

Which you had to grab onto the very end of the rope.

Because you jump, you catch onto the rope wherever your guy is.

So if you grab the very end of it rather than say, the middle, and you let go right when your crotch is in the face, I'm sorry I couldn't get through that.

No, no, no.

Right, right.

When your crotch is in the face of the gladiator, you will knock that gladiator right off his feet.

Wow, it's a crotch attack.

Those were somewhat rare in games back then.

They didn't dare a lot of the time.

Those swinging on ropes.

I don't know what that was about in the 80s for some reason, like with Pitfall with Jungle Hunt, everyone was like, this is what people want, jump on a rope, hold it, let go, you did it.

Those are some good games.

I guess rope swinging, but it kind of died out.

I haven't seen a good rope swinging game in a while.

I'm trying to I guess by on a commando.

You brought the rope with you.

Spider Man.

Spy always got ropes.

He's shooting ropes.

He shoot ropes?

Yeah.

Spider man 2.

They gave him the wings, which I hated.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, you play a Spider Man game to like feel like Spider Man and then they give you wings.

So you could just bypass swinging for the most part.

So I didn't use.

Them, no.

Is it like the wings he spins out of webs or out of symbiote slop?

Or something.

Oh my God.

So do you know that Spider man episode from the 60s where he makes a fan boat entirely out of his webs?

A fan boat like a motorized.

Boat.

Oh yeah, a functional fan boat just out of webs.

Like as ridiculous as that is in Spider Man 2, really early on somebody tells Miles like we built a 3D printer into your web shooters so you can make a drone just out of your web.

So once again, he creates something with a working motor.

Wow, like 3D printers can't do that.

No, no, no.

Especially out of sticky webs.

There's no, there's no rhyme of reason.

It's suspension disbelief.

I get it.

There are spider people.

They've been bit by spiders.

Now they can bench press 50 lbs or 500 lbs or whatever.

I think they can bench press 10 tons actually.

I I guess it's not the most unbelievable part of Spider Man.

But I find with suspension of disbelief conceits, like they give you the big thing you got to believe like there's vampires or, you know, aliens have showed up.

And then if you ask more on top of that, it's even more insulting than if you would just like, been a little wacky along the way to be like, there's aliens and also, I don't know, Jonathan Holmes, he's got his hair back or something.

It's just not going to happen.

You know, like the those days are over.

Yeah.

You got to come to terms with it.

You're you're you're never going to turn back the clock, Jonathan.

You're.

But you're bald now, Jonathan.

Well, listen, on the bright side, as an American Gladiator, at least no one can grab your hair.

That's true.

That's a lot of superheroes should keep their hair short.

I'm always surprised more people aren't grabbing Thor's hair because it's right there, you know, just yank them around.

Yeah.

Which brings us back to American Gladiators.

Kind of because he looked like one of them and he's still hot today.

Which tells me the American Gladiators can come back.

I'm surprised.

Have they, Daniel?

Has the American Gladiators been remade yet?

No, the most I know about is that that docu series on Netflix, it had a little bit of heat on it for a minute there.

But I don't think anybody cares about the gladiators.

I did have an idea of years ago actually, about just turning the assault game into its own like video game.

I told Jonathan this and he was like, it's been done.

Whoa, I was that rude?

I'm not entirely surprised.

No, you're, you're fine.

You're fine.

There was a little bit more to it, but I I won't say it on the podcast.

Oh geez, did I do it?

Is that why I was so rude?

Like you show my idea, Daniel.

Who knows?

Who knows with me?

Do we rate the kusoge?

Should we rate how kusoge it is for the first time?

Just give it a number.

People love numbers.

People do love numbers.

What?

What's the scale?

I guess 1 is it's barely kusoge, you know, like China warrior already.

If it was a one to 10, China warrior would be like a a strong 7.5.

I think like it's not maximum.

So we're.

Rating it at based on how like, goodly bad it is, yes.

OK, we'll put it at a six.

OK.

Because like I said, it's a it's a rental.

It's not going to change your life like the best kusoge will.

But it's not unremarkably bad.

It's remarkably bad in its own way.

And and kitschy is kitschy a word you can use.

Sure, it's it.

Well, American Gladiators had that 90s tackiness to it.

Yes, and it's got that plus like ramming your crotch into somebody to win a game and shimmy in.

So yeah, it's all adds up to me.

American Gladiators 6 out of 10 on the Kusonian scale.

We did it just like that.

All right, let's let's move on so we can get this done sounds.

Good.

We're going to kick it over to Alan to talk about a series that is not Kusogi to him.

It's Borderlands.

All all those games, there's like 6 of them or something.

There's a lot, but the 4th 1's on its way so we'll find out what he has to say.

There's six of them or something.

The 4th 1 is awesome.

Well that's how they get you because there's tails for the Barda lands, which is not numbered but it's in there and there's like Mad Moxie's sexy cocktail or something.

There's a pre sequel?

Yep.

Like if it's in between 1:00 and

2:00 and they call.

It a pre sequel?

Yeah.

I'm talking with Alan Ortega of Mob Entertainment, makers of Poppy Playtime, and today we're going to be actually talking about Borderlands, which is convenient because there is a new Borderlands coming out soon.

It's coming out about 10 days from when we record this or about 3 or 4 from when the episode comes out.

I've worked with Alan on the Fixture Hard or Die podcast, but I've never actually worked with you together.

So it's it's always been indirect.

You, you record stuff and I edit it and this is the first time you and I have ever spoken.

But it's great to hear from you, Alan.

I love that we're innovating in a parasocial relationship space here with these indirect conversations we've had for months.

But yeah, hi, how's it going?

It's good.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, we've talked a little bit on on chat, I guess in, in discords and etcetera.

But yeah, never, never one-on-one.

It's it's a first.

Nice to meet you on the virtual meet space.

But yeah, I even though I work on Poppy, playtime is my day job.

I am extremely passionate about Borderlands, so I'm excited to get to to dig into why I love this franchise so much and what makes it special and the kind of like the personal journey I've had alongside this franchise over the past like almost 20 years.

Yeah, yeah.

You were telling me some interesting stuff about how the game series has shaped your identity across its whole run, which is is fascinating.

Yeah, it's been, it's been a pretty integral part of my life since like 2009 when the first game came out.

It's funny because like it's a type of game that I normally don't really connect to.

But I think, you know, for those young whippersnappers who maybe don't remember the first Borderlands game and the journey from it being initially announced to coming out itself went through a bit of an identity evolution from kind of a more drab looking 360 era shooter.

Basically, they ended up revamping the art direction of the series from the initial announcement video through it getting launched in 2009 and became way more colorful and kind of like leaned more into the silly campy elements of of the series as a concept, kind of being a cel shaded Mad Maxi type aesthetic in a open world shooter with RPG mechanics.

And you know, that shouldn't work, but it absolutely did.

And you know, it became a game for me.

That was something I spent hundreds of hours in with close friends and with my significant other at the time.

I think because it is a really Co-op oriented experience, it kind of is the perfect type of thing to play with friends and a non competitive space.

I'm not a very competitive person.

I don't really play competitive shooters or fighting games competitively or any of these things where I'm like having to pour my heart and soul into getting really good.

I would rather work alongside people to accomplish things.

And I think Borderlands just kind of offered the perfect combination of collaborative social gaming with really goofy aesthetic that is still to this day not common in big AAA games.

I, I think I, I can count on one hand the amount of big AAA western games that that have a sense of irreverent fund that Borderlands continues to have over the course of its many releases.

Everything can be so self serious and so grim and a lot of AAA games come from a place of deep insecurity about its own premise that they are don't trust you to just be able to go with it and have fun.

And Borderlands has always been, you know, to varying degrees of success in the spirit of what would be silly and fun to do at a given moment.

And that's something that, you know, runs true through everything I am really passionate about in terms of art and entertainment.

So Borderlands has always been the series that like really clicked with me in a field of video games that I think largely doesn't appeal to me.

I just I don't want to be competitive and I don't want something super self serious.

And these are both things that the series does in spades.

It is in the DNA of Borderlands.

Borderlands 2 comes out and kind of capitalizes on all the things that made the first game work and really like, leans further into its strengths and kind of cuts out some of the vestigial elements of the first vision of the game that don't really work.

And just ratchets all of the good things up to 11, including developing their sort of peak antagonist of Handsome Jack, the the big villain of the second game.

You know, that game is still probably the thing they're chasing in this entire time, trying to like recapture the lightning in the bottle that that that that game had, especially with the villain.

It really was this cultural experience that I got to have with so many close friends and, you know, was the perfect relationship game to play alongside my partner at the time.

And honestly, also one of the playable characters in Borderlands 2 accidentally was bisexual and it kind of helped put me on the path towards accepting my own bisexuality.

It was the first time I ever felt seen in a game period, or any piece of media really.

Because sorry to go off on a queer tangent but you're good.

Basically.

Typically by guys in media are often the butt of jokes and or the villain of a story.

Their their their queerness is used to sort of be sexually threatening towards the straight protagonists, and that's how you show out how amoral or evil they are.

So the having one of the playable characters in Borderlands 2 be bisexual accidentally threw a bug, weirdly enough, like basically he was, he was supposed to flirt with female player characters, like when you go and res them as like a way to gas them up, But the bug made him do that with everybody.

And so and, and basically people like myself were like, I feel seen right now because this character is a big hearted puppy dog character that shows that he cares through gassing up all of his homies, right?

And it's something that is a very different take on bisexuality, especially by males in media.

And Anthony Burch, who is like the lead writer of Borderlands 2, who's also bisexual in his real life, I think they all took it to heart and started writing content, canonizing it, right.

So that was this amazing experience of like, they're listening to their audience that are a bunch of weirdos and misfits and folks who don't normally feel very represented in AAA game space and really leaning into those things and making people feel seen and heard in a way that I don't really see happening much in, in even even now in the in the AAA game space.

So it, it was always really great to see that that feedback from Gearbox with their community and really valuing the people that are really invested in what, in what they make, myself included.

So, you know, that game made a big impact on me.

It helped me kind of like fully accept that about myself.

And now I'm like really obnoxiously out and open about it to try to like help in my own part, to kind of set an example for others as well that feel like, hey, this is a valid identity and it's totally normal and OK.

Because a glitch in a video game from 22,000 and 12 helped me come to terms with it.

Think about what actual people can do if they if they're trying to like help make people feel like it's normal, you know, So Borderlands has this intense connection with me on that front.

It's a game series that's still excelling in a space that not a lot of other people are trying to create these types of Co-op RPG grindy kind of because it kind of is first person shooter Diablo in a lot of ways.

It's repetitive, but there's comfort in the repetition, especially when the world itself, it's so fun and you just want to spend more time in it.

It kind of doesn't really matter what you're doing and it all that much.

Then you have the representation angle of it because there's like a lot of most of the characters in Borderlands are sexually honest, spectrum, really racially diverse.

A lot of them are like have various disabilities and it's just treated as normal.

It's not something that defines them.

So there's the world of Borderlands, while being kind of a capitalist hellscape, is weirdly hopeful and optimistic about people and treating each other different based on their differences.

Because in the world of Borderlands, it doesn't matter.

None of this matters.

It's about getting paid and shooting your opponents, basically.

Like everything is violent violence in the chase of money is what matters.

In the world of Borderlands, your, your identity doesn't matter.

Nobody treats anyone differently based on those things.

So it's weirdly still a better world than the one we live in.

In many ways, it's at least seems like a more welcoming space than the current world we're in.

You know, I have all this like, connection to it on that front.

And then flash forward to 2014.

I'm working in retail jobs that I don't love.

I'm living in a part of the country I hate.

I'm in a relationship that's not working anymore.

Not one part of my life is going right.

And Borderlands is one of those escapes for me at that time that really bring me community.

I make so many friends through the Borderlands.

Fandom.

I get into cosplay pretty heavily, which is a big part of the Borderlands fandom space.

I'm working to try to like make a shift in my career out of the kind of the customer service jobs I'm stuck in.

And I cosplay the first, the main character from the about to be released Tales from the Borderlands from Telltale Games.

And I'm the first person to cosplay this character.

I'm like jumping on it immediately.

I build all the like foam robot arm and I do all the cell shaded paint and all that stuff.

And I really go all in on it.

And I show up to pack South in San Antonio, TX, 1st year that they're doing it, it ends up because I'm the first cosplayer, I end up meeting the marketing team at Telltale Games.

Whoa.

I end up networking with them.

It gets me an interview, I seal the deal and get a job there.

And it's my first job in the games industry.

So I got my break in the games industry because of cosplay and the Borderlands community and the Borderlands IP, which changed my life.

I moved out to California.

I now have a 11 year long career because of Borderlands, specifically Tales in the Borderlands, which is still my, my favorite piece of Borderlands anything.

It's a wonderful piece of art that nobody played, unfortunately.

But this series has fundamentally changed the direction of my life in every way, shape or form.

I have close friends, I have a relationship because I got to move out here because I changed my career because of Borderlands.

And so, you know, sometimes gamers can be a little salty, a little spicy about it, especially because it's a series.

It's been around for almost 20 years.

Not everybody is in love with what it's doing, but to me, it's like it it has shaped my life for the better in every possible way.

And I'm kind of right or die for it as a result of that.

So yeah, that's my life story so far.

And how, how Borderlands it has been more than just a silly looter shooter cartoon game since 2009.

And and why I'm I'm willing to go to bat for it whenever I can because it is it is still a special piece of IP.

We're not going to talk about the movie.

I watched the movie opening weekend but we we will just pretend it didn't happen.

Well, I mean, until you just mentioned it, I forgot it happened.

So that's.

It's my best forgotten for sure.

Wow, that is that's fascinating.

Just generally, I didn't know that about you that that that was that deep connected that you got literally a job in the industry from a cosplay.

That's crazy.

And I mean, it shows that you never know what's going to happen at events like that.

Wow, you, you have dumped a huge amount of information on me about about Borderlands and, and yourself and everything.

Wow, where to start?

I mean, part of you loved the series just because it was like a thing to do with friends that was more collaborative than combative.

But I guess it's just the the humor in in the game as opposed to anything else that that made you select Borderlands rather than Destiny or rather than like Final Fantasy 14.

I mean, maybe you spent some time in those games, but it seems that Borderlands is the game for you.

Yeah, it it definitely has yet to be at all challenged in any meaningful way by anything else.

Cuz like, Destiny came out markedly after Borderlands had already had its big sort of the peak with Borderlands 2 and all the DLC that came out in 2012 and much later Destiny hit.

But Destiny's lacking a personality.

To me, the world itself, It feels very like the type of video game you'd see Law and Order make to try to depict to like boomers what a video game is.

It's this this very like soup of aesthetics that don't blend together to me at all.

As somebody who played the first one and just could not like I recognize it's mechanically arguably as good if not better than the later Borderlands games.

I can objectively say like I can see where people maybe prefer the gameplay loop of Destiny but I feel nothing for the world or characters or lore of of that franchise.

I've tried multiple times to get into it because it is historically very self serious and very video game cliche.

I know Borderlands kind of became a victim of its own success after a point where they've been trying to chase this sort of magic of the second game in terms of the writing and the storytelling.

It hasn't really been quite as strong as that second game.

But I mean, that could be said for most long running franchises.

Usually the second game is the one that where they really figure out the template.

They take the proof of concept first game and they do from the ground up evolution of the ideas.

And then from there, it's kind of hard to like, figure out how to like evolve it past that point.

Right.

Yeah.

There's just something about games like Destiny that just don't.

There is a lack of whimsy, a lack of fun that I think is really lacking in both the world itself, the aesthetics, the the writing and even like the gameplay to a degree.

Like I think Borderlands has just always been about what is a crazy thing you can do.

Like the all the skill trees that they continue to expand on and to give people more different ways to play the game maybe aren't as strategically rich, but there is always that sense of what would be the fun thing to do with this character in XY or Z path.

So for me, I just don't think there's any comparison at this point.

And certainly there are times where Borderlands 3, for instance, was sort of the the peak of them.

It was released in 2019.

They gave fans everything they kind of wanted on paper, and it was, it wasn't reinventing the wheel at all.

But I think that they've reached a point with the franchise that they've kind of maximized how much they can engage with people like me.

And now they're at a point where they're trying to figure out how to like thread the needle of evolving the mechanics and the concepts of it without alienating the core fan base that has been supporting them this entire time.

That's the tough thing for any long running franchise to figure out.

Like, how do you grow your audience without abandoning what it is about the games that people love to start with?

Because otherwise you become your competitors and and there's you lose your identity, right?

Yeah.

Well, I mean, you know, my my baseline for that is like similar to you, I I have a deep personal connection to Metal Gear Solid.

Obviously it seems like yours is much more personal, but like I love the Metal Gear Solid series, even when they went kind of a little weird in four.

That's actually my favorite one.

But then the game tried to appeal to a wider audience with the fifth one.

And you know, granted, it had all kinds of production issues behind the scenes.

Kojima left etcetera, that it's a lot different and and that's where like they kind of lost me.

I mean, it plays the best, but it's also like, and it was trying to appeal to the most people, but it's also like, it's not exactly what it used to be.

It lost that Kojima magic right Like it.

It doesn't have that Death Strandingness that is just like the Lynchian influence on on Kojima has been slowly drained out of the Metal Gear Solid franchise over the course of the last couple of official entries.

I I remember buying APS because I was a huge Metal Gear fan as well and then Metal Gear 4 broke me.

I remember my ex at the time I bought APS 3 to get to play Metal Gear Solid 4.

I did as well.

And there's pictures of me with my head in my hands by the end of the game being like, what is this?

It was so evident that his vision and his sensibility was being compromised by too many cooks in the kitchen because there was so much pressure on that game to be like the system seller.

There was so much pressure on that game to be the biggest release ever.

And you can feel like he's trying to find ways to work in his ridiculous nonsense and his big ideas in there.

But then there's all this external influence that just makes it feel very frustrating.

As a mega fan, I just felt very disappointed with that that game in the end because it didn't feel like it had much of A spine or much to say beyond remember these other games you love so much.

Like let's go have a clip show where we go and watch moments from other games previously.

And I'm like, that's not what I want out of Metal Gear.

Metal Gear is way crazier than that.

And then 5 was just like a Christopher Nolan notification of the whole franchise.

It's a very baffling like the the fun in it is so rare and like you have to work for it.

And I'm just, I don't know at this point.

It's like the IP doesn't matter.

It's the people making it that matters.

And and you hope that that the people working on the the IP after a certain point, get why people care about it and like how to try to carry the torch for sort of what makes that series special.

But I have the same worries about Silent Hill, like there hasn't been a great Silent Hill game since like 2004 or whenever the last the 4th game came out.

But I keep having hope that eventually the right team can crack the code and recreate that magic while doing their own thing.

I hope the new one but looks looks like it's promising what we'll see.

It's a tough thing.

Well, it's interesting that you're talking about the, the behind the scenes people.

So, you know, a couple of times, obviously you've said it and I'd say probably many Borderlands fans, I think the same thing, that the second one is the big one, Anthony Birch, he stopped working there.

I don't know the circumstances.

Is he the secret sauce?

Well, he definitely worked on Tales from the Borderlands as like a consultant, and he did some writing for us whenever I was at Telltale.

So certainly I think he gets the spirit of it in a lot of ways, especially he understands Handsome Jack as a character because he was so integral to shaping that character.

And Handsome Jack is pretty central to the Tales from the Borderlands experience.

For those of you who are at all interested, I would actually highly recommend just dipping your toe in the franchise with Tales from the Borderlands.

They Cliff notes you the important stuff you need to know.

And it's a stand alone story that I think shows the franchise at its best in terms of writing and like the comedic tone and how it plays with video game mechanics in a way to like lampoon those cliches and video games in really fun ways.

But I do think like, I know folks over at Gearbox, I know like Sam Winkler, the the lead writer who's been working on it since Borderlands 3.

And I think he really gets it.

I think the challenge is just like on a, on a higher level, on like a, a leadership standpoint.

It happens with Marvel.

It happens with any big IP.

It's been around a while.

They, you know, you have leadership kind of saying, well, we need to appeal to XY or Z audience or we need to chase this trend and it kind of pulls a franchise in a lot of different directions in the pursuit of growth.

I think that Gearbox has managed to avoid a lot of that for good and for bad, because like I think that personally, I really enjoy all the other Borderlands games after 2 enough like I like them.

I'm not, I'm not like deeply, passionately in love with the the games that came after two as much as I was with two.

But that's like the difference between like a 9 1/2 versus like a 7 1/2 or 8, right?

Like it's still, they're still good.

They're just not like they're not going to stick with me as much as that second game did.

And I believe the opportunity of them recapturing that magic wherever they can.

But I just like spending time in that world so much that it kind of, it doesn't really matter to me if it's not spectacular and it's just kind of OK and fun for what it is.

Like even Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, which is the most recent release, some creative choices that I didn't love, but I still like being in that world with that sensibility so much that it's like, so the writings not as strong in my opinion as maybe some other titles, but it's still that world that I love being in that is unlike any other in the games industry.

And it's something I can play with people that, you know, that and we can kind of turn our brain off and just sort of go away along with this irreverent, goofy series.

Maybe it's because I don't play as many video games as some people.

I think maybe that that's another thing is this games are competing for people's mindshare to such a degree that it's like the bar gets set so high by people who are completionists who have to play every major release that comes out.

So to them, an OK, not phenomenal game that's just sort of goofy and fun just doesn't move the needle for them necessarily when their money and time is being competed for by everybody else in the industry.

But I think that the Gearbox has done an amazing job of like really understanding their foundational fans who will be with them throughout thick and thin and making sure they're taken care of versus something like, I don't know if you ever played the Darksiders series.

I played the first one and I think I might have tried the second one just for a little bit but the the God of War Ness of them turned me off.

So I love those games because they are an amalgam of other mechanics from other games that I like thrown into a blender.

I, I love the Zelda style portions of those games, but then as soon as they switch to like the, the sort of like little tiny arenas where you fight the big guys that need 100 hits to take out, I'm just like, I don't want to do that, see.

I'm a I'm a Devil May cry and bayonet up guy.

So like that shit is exactly what I'm looking for because I've always like, I felt like Zelda is would be any more interesting to me if I had an actual interesting combo oriented combat system as opposed to the combat generally and Zelda games being like a thing you have to get through to get to the dungeons and solve the puzzles and stuff.

It's not really a complex or compelling combat system to me.

So the fact that it was, you know, God of War, Devil May cry combat, Prince of Persia traversal, which I love Prince of Persia and Zelda dungeons.

I'm like, that is, that is like everything I love all in a blender.

But then they made the third game and it was a they decided to pursue the souls like genre.

And so the mechanics of it were wildly different in that regard.

And I'm like, well, that's the one thing I loved about this series was the things you were doing before.

But I, I get the, well, if we really want to keep making this, obviously, like I'm not a business guy.

I don't do the the numbers, I don't have the the, the data to tell for sure.

But I'm guessing they looked at the sales performance of the first two games and said, well, it's not enough to continue off like making these games as they are.

So if we're going to continue the franchise, it needs to like pivot to something more relevant to what people's current gaming trends are.

But from my experience, that generally breaks bad for a lot of franchises.

They try to chase a trend and it doesn't really do it well enough to compete with the other kings of that that genre.

And they just get lost in the in the, in the noise, right?

Like you're never going to compete with a Dark Souls or an Elden Ring.

Like to think that you can topple them is insane.

Versus like the audience, you know, you had that really liked what you were making because no one else was doing it outside of Nintendo.

Like if it's the the calculus that so many game companies are doing these days of like, we have an audience baked into these franchises, but are we content with that amount of money that they can bring in?

Or do we need to try to like find a way to appeal to a potentially wider audience?

But it's a gamble because you risk running off the very people who will show up every single time for the unique thing that you are making.

It's been something I've been certainly concerned about as a Borderlands fan, watching the sort of the the information come out about Borderlands 4 and me getting a little nervous that, oh man, are they going to like throw the baby out with the bathwater and make a weirdly self serious modern shooter out of this that drains the spirit and fun out of this.

And certainly the early trailers made me a little more worried about that because if you go and watch the initial announcement trailer for Borderlands 4, there's no jokes in there.

There's no irreverent sensibility that I could see.

And it was a lot of like, I'm a Cyborg robot man.

I'm not on the big bad of the game.

And I look like a lot of other video game bad guys.

And you're like, OK, I'm this feels like not the direction I love, but then every other subsequent marketing piece and and story beat has shown that they're like, no, it's still very Borderlands.

Like it's still like all the character trailers are a series of bits and jokes for the most part.

Like there's very little seriousness in it.

And I'm like, OK, thank God we're in good hands.

But that was like, what I worry about is like, I, I don't know if people will care about a serious Borderlands game, you know, like, I just don't think that's going to appeal to anybody.

I mean, it's bringing so many things to mind.

I mean, I, I, I wonder, you know, with the fact that you've got people like Anthony Birch no longer being behind the scenes, but then you have Randy Pitchford being the, you know, guy that's sort of in charge of this series.

And then like, I wonder how much is, is somebody like him, you know, the kind of person that would be swayed by like hearing things of go woke, go broke and, and being like, do we need to, you know, now delete anything that would be a, an accidental bisexual bug.

They need to stamp that out in QA, you know, is, is that, is that the type of guy he is?

I don't know Randy Pitchford at all.

I've I've heard lots of stories, but you know.

Well, I have never worked with him directly.

I've worked with people at Gearbox.

When I was at Telltale I we had people that we collaborated with for like marketing purposes and whatnot.

And they've always been stand up people.

Everybody I've interacted with there are like top notch folk and they seem like they're very not interested in catering to the kind of worst among our community in terms of this toxic bad actors who kind of like unfortunately do often shape the conversation around the games industry, The fear of angering the wrong kinds of personalities that then become Gamergate people and stuff like that.

Like they're, they don't seem to give much of A shit about that.

And you know, the interactions I have had with Randy, I am pretty confident in saying that he, his heart is very much in the right place.

And he's always seemed like he's very much valued the fandom of that franchise, especially those in marginalized communities.

Because like, I remember going to multiple like cosplay meet up and panels at packs or E3 and he's always like really engaged with the audience.

And like he's been very vocal about like taking it to heart that people like, you know, like members of the queer community and people of color and disabled people and all the people that really connected with the games for its representation in a very casual, normalized, non preachy kind of way.

Like that seems to really like head home to him.

And I think he really that there's a reason why I think that they've only like quadrupled down over the years about that kind of representation.

Like for instance, there's a character in Borderlands 3 who is a trans dude and they are played by a trans actor.

And in Tiny Tina's Wonderlands, they're pretty central to the narrative and they lean even further into like them presenting as going through a transition and taking testosterone.

Like they have they have the telltale facial hair of somebody taking testosterone growing patchy.

You know, the kind of stuff that like most of my trans friends, when you see them going through their transition process, you're like, OK, there's very visible signs of like they are, their voice is deeper.

Like they're, they're not shying away from any of this stuff.

They don't necessarily like make it be a constant narrative, like, oh, let's talk about the fact that I'm trans.

Because in the world of Borderlands, people just don't care.

It's not an issue.

It's kind of like.

Schitt's Creek where like the universe of Schitt's Creek, everyone just it's, there's conflict, but none of it comes from identity.

It's always like other stuff, you know, and it's kind of hopeful and that's more of an optimistic worldview.

But it's like, I do think that they historically Randy and and the full and leadership at Gearbox never seems to really push against that stuff.

My only concerns are just because now they're owned by 2K lock, stock and barrel, whether or not that has an influence over what they can get away with in that regard.

If they start getting told by executives outside of Gearbox Studios what is and isn't allowed to avoid any kind of controversy.

Because every, every corporation right now is being incredibly proactively conservative about this type of stuff.

Like Disney is on my shit list for a lot of things they've done recently that feel so cowardly and and basically abandoning their audiences that they're completely content with historically making money off of.

Now that the wind is blowing politically in a different direction, they're they're making it clear where they stand and I haven't felt that so far with Gearbox.

I hope to God it doesn't ever happen because I can't think of any other game franchises, especially at the scale that make people feel included to the degree that that this.

I mean, you could look at games like Life is Strange that are incredibly queer positive, but that's still a much smaller IP and a much smaller scale production like it.

It doesn't reach the same bigger audience that's something like Borderlands does.

So I think it's really important.

It's the equivalent of having like a Marvel movie not be mealy mouthed about its representation and actually like, you know, treating queer people as just people who are part of the world that they're in.

You know, that's that's that hits different than an indie film.

That's maybe being a bit more direct about it, how it represents queer people.

That's my perspective at least.

Yeah, and it's, it's so short sighted that the companies go whichever way the wind is blowing because it's like in who knows the number of years, but in a number of years it's going to be the other way.

And you, you guys that run Disney or, or, or whatever are going to be like chasing after money.

That's, you know, that way.

And it's like we, we remember, you know, that you guys were assholes.

You don't.

You don't seem to think that we remember, but you know, the public does remember.

Oh yeah, like they ain't getting over that.

Those allegations, they're, it's going to get brought up every single time they try to pat themselves on the back and put a rainbow profile picture on their social media account or whatever.

Like people remember and, and like being inclusive is good for business, even in these terrible times.

Like the, the data shows that like, the more you try to make people feel welcome in your space, the better the ultimate financial outcome is.

So it's like, it's just baffling to me, which is another reason why Borderlands is so special to me is because it is a game of this scale of production that is so virulently anti capitalist.

It's honestly every other video game that's come after that doesn't even get close to the level of spiciness about the horrors of of unchecked capitalism.

Because I I don't know how familiar you are with Borderlands, but the entire dystopian universe of Borderlands is there are no more human governments.

Humanity is led by a series of mega corporations.

Yeah, and everything is done for profit.

Yeah, I haven't personally dug too deep into the series at all.

We've talked a little bit privately about how much of a hater of most games I am.

It's not, it's not.

It doesn't have anything to do with the themes of the of Borderlands, but it's more the sponginess of the bad guys that I've like.

I don't want to shoot a guy 200 times before he goes down, but that's that's all beside the point.

Those are mechanical beefs and those are totally valid.

I don't, I don't, I think that those are hard to like quantify because those are sort of your brain either responds to certain gameplay design choices or not.

I, I think it's always so hard to have those conversations with people like for instance, people I know who just do bounced off of Donkey Kong Bonanza so hard because of the very things that I think are actually really fun about it.

But my brain just lights up by certain elements of that game that other people just do not connect with at all.

It just it's a hard thing to to find commonality about.

Yeah.

And, and you don't want to, I mean, kind of like we've been saying throughout, you don't want to make a game for every single person.

You want to make a game for the people that it's for.

So that's, yeah, that's perfectly valid.

But it is also illuminating that you've been talking about the multiplayer aspect of it.

Whenever I play Borderlands I stick to single player and I'm probably doing it wrong as a result.

I would say so, especially depending on which class you play because typically there are so there's 4 character classes in every game at the start and then they usually add new character classes and DLC.

And some are more beneficial to play as a solo player versus others.

Others like their skill set is more complementary to other classes.

And so you really have to like be selective about, I would say for instance, like if you were playing Borderlands 2 or one, the soldier commando guy is usually the best bet to go with as a solo player because you have this like turret that you can throw out whenever things get spicy and he pulls focus and can provide defense.

You can level up your turret also to give you ammo or project a shield so that whenever things get hot, you can roll in there and heal up while it's providing cover fire.

Like there are things like that that allow and then make the single player experience work better.

But I do think the ideal experience is at least with one or two to other people.

So that way you have somebody that you have that sense of camaraderie as you're both using your skills to support each other.

And it's just, I don't know, I like teamwork.

I would rather feel like I'm doing my part This.

I play support classes and games like Marvel Rivals and Overwatch.

I like feeling like I'm doing my part to help other people succeed.

So a game like this where there's a lot of different ways I can have that dynamic with other people, I get a dopamine hit off of like, you know, knowing that I'm helping out my friends get out of a sticky situation and when they're shot, I can lift them up or provide cover fire for them so they can like go do something cool elsewhere or whatever like that.

That scratches things for me.

But maybe those who are looking to be a one man army and like be more of a a direct power fantasy, maybe this doesn't have as much to offer without friends to to kind of like close the gap on that.

But.

Well, so I guess let's look to the future.

It sounds like based on some of the marketing stuff you said that it's most likely not going to be super different from the other games in terms of like the, the tone.

But I guess we don't know yet about the representation per SE or, or do we?

I cuz like like I said I I haven't super followed what's going on in Borderlands.

Yeah, so so far, it's the second game in the series that's taking place off of the core home planet of Pandora, which is where the games historically took place as a backwater planet where basically mega corporations mined it for resources and then got bored and left people there to rot.

And so it's like Australia, but in space.

It's like a bunch of criminals and like XX, like miners and stuff that didn't form their own backwoods culture there.

And there's alien technology in these vaults that people are always looking for to get treasure out of it, that there's that element of it.

But this new game is taking place on another planet entirely dealing with other enemies and new characters.

And it's sort of like in the universe of Borderlands, but it's not set in the same space, dealing with the same central group of characters that they have in the past.

But what we do know about the main Vault Hunter playable characters, they already have like a disabled Hispanic guy who's like whole thing is basically this company sold him an exoskeleton because of his degenerative health issues.

But then he's like basically at risk of like getting it repoed because he can't keep up with the payments.

There's a guy who was raised in a cult that worshipped the vaults.

And then he finds out that he's been indoctrinated by this religion that's basically a suicide cult.

And he's purposely going around and trying to like deprogram people who have been in a religiously indoctrinated environment.

There's like an autistic scientist lady who's basically like trying to do the right thing with science, but capitalism means that they just want her to make weapons and stuff.

Like there's all there are all these interesting social and political things that this series always likes to explore, but it's still irreverent and fun and silly.

You know, there's still one of the vault hunters was a cashier at a department store and Black Friday basically turned into a literal massacre.

And then they that activated their siren powers.

So like it's, it's not preachy or self serious, but it's like, it's that wonderful thing that I love about anime that they can toggle between serious topics and complete camp without undermining the seriousness of the situation or ideas.

But it keeps it from being too grim or like pretentious.

You know, there's always this thing that's sort of like undercutting a dark thing with a joke that I I, I find cathartic and not depressing.

Well, and it sounds like, yeah, it's doing that like classic sci-fi bit of of being like we're going to use the sci-fi as an allegory to talk about the current things and and just get their message across slightly under the radar of the potential real world capitalists that would say no, which is which is great.

Yeah, it's very like Paul Verhoeveny.

It's there's a Robocopness to it where it's like the darkness is so exaggerated and so camp, and yet it's rooted in something real that it kind of makes it go down a little smoother than if it was just a a more grounded take on the same dark concepts.

In the same way that like Severance has that that duality of being cartoonish and weird, but then there's this sinister element underneath that they're talking about through the lens of that camp.

And I think that there is an allergy within the games industry historically of camp is the enemy.

Like we we're they want so bad to be movies that there that there's this insecurity that that exudes off of a lot of stuff.

Like if you look at a lot of the big AAA games that have been critically well received, most of the time they feel like if they weren't a video game, they would probably be the most middle of the road, poorly received art film or whatever.

They're in the pursuit of trying to replicate film because a lot of these folks, I think are kind of failed film makers.

David Cage, Hello.

And but but they would be laughed out of the field that they would like to be in.

So they slum it in games.

And I think the best video games that people really connect with, people embrace what makes video games special and don't feel the need to just replicate techniques and storytelling devices that film and TV do.

Because it's like you're never going to be able to compete on that level straight up.

And it's it's actually really sly that you slipped in a reference to severance in that in that little bit there because we probably do need to wrap up.

But do you want to plug the thing that you've been working on that involves severance?

Oh yeah, so I've been on Fixed or Hard or Die, the podcast that you are heavily involved in, and I think we just dropped the last episode of season Twos recap.

Right.

Yeah, the last season 2 show so that that we did so.

So it was the third of six I think or third of seven about severance as a total package.

So yeah, there's tons of severance content on that.

Yeah, and it's, and it's a show that even then after that many episodes of the podcast, like I don't think we fully unpacked everything it was.

There's a lot to talk about that series for sure.

But now that I've I've jumped into the plugs I I did realize I probably should have asked this.

Was there any other little last bits you wanted to say about Borderlands?

Yeah, I let's say with Borderlands, like I think the new one is likely going to be a great place to start to jump in.

I don't know, Like I am so in love with this franchise that I'm like, it can do no wrong to me, even when it does not right, if that makes any sense.

Like there's not every game is perfect, but there's still something really special about that universe and that gameplay loop.

And there's just the sensibility of Borderlands.

I mean, we live in a world that that it, the satire at the center of it feels less of an exaggeration with every day that passes.

Like I'm, I'm at a point where I'm like Borderlands feels like an almost an optimistic view of what our future looks like as a people.

That's pretty.

That's pretty crazy.

But yeah, it's it's a ton of fun.

There's so much content there, especially if you want to go back and start from the beginning.

I'd say probably the first game mechanically hasn't aged super great, but like I would, I would say if you're interested, you can get Borderlands 2 for like nothing, usually like a couple of dollars and you get dozens and dozens of hours of gameplay out of it.

And then I think that's such a great statement for like what this franchise is all about.

And then start to explore the rest of it.

I also think Tales in the Borderlands, I'm biased.

I think it's fantastic.

And you know a great example of what makes this series so special and why I believe in its longevity.

Despite what some people might say about the gameplay not being their thing anymore or whatever.

I, I do think that it, it is still a unique and special IP that I, I don't know, especially if you care about a lot of the things I've rambled on about today.

It's a perfect time to jump in now.

I'm, I, I went and bought the most expensive version of it on steam.

I'm so, I'm so Borderlands pilled at this point.

Like I maybe people aren't interested in my unnuanced or uncritical view on it, but there still feels like a very special franchise that I think if you haven't dipped in or, or maybe you haven't played it in a long time since 2012, give it another shot because, you know, video games, they haven't necessarily gotten better.

You know, I think it's sort of like how I feel about Avatar where I, I always tell people I'm like, I didn't like Avatar the movie when it came out.

I now kind of love it because movies got worse and what made Avatar work only makes it look better by comparison of what's happened over the last 20 years in movies.

I would argue the same thing with Borderlands.

Like maybe give it another shot if you bounced off of it back in the day because things have gotten more depressing and Borderlands feels that much more fresh by comparison.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so just as a very quick you said that Tales from the Borderlands, you cosplayed as that and that got you your job.

What point did you jump into that series as behind the scenes?

Yeah, I, I joined the marketing team for Telltale Games right before the launch of episode 3 of Tales in the Borderlands is a 5 episode series.

So I got to jump in and actually, I, the interesting thing about places like Telltale, sorry, this is another tangent, but the interesting about Telltale is they were able to make changes so regularly and so quickly to their games as they were making them.

That I was able to as a as a voice for the fandom in the community helped like ensure that there were certain character moments that happened that they weren't planning on having happened earlier in the process process.

Because I was able to like we would have early review builds that we would play through of an episode and I'd be like, we didn't have a moment with this character.

And I know people really care about having them have a moment before the game is over.

So there is these two robot characters and tales in the Borderlands and they're basically everyone's favorite precious cinnamon rolls who too good for this world characters.

And they didn't have a moment at the end of the last episode where they were like got to have a moment together where like they thanked each other and and tell them how they mean to each other.

And my notes were able to make that scene happen.

And I ended up helping shape that.

So like, it was cool to actually have a voice at all for the fandom in the room to make that happen.

And it's a small victory, but it to me, it meant a lot.

And people seem to really latch on to that moment too, so.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm, I'm looking at the release dates between the 1st and the last one.

It was under a year and I can't believe they had the capacity to pivot like that.

That's crazy.

I always assumed that they just like had it hard and fast written before they began a single frame of animating or whatever.

We could we could talk all day long about what I learned at Telltale Games for sure, but they definitely the turn around time on that stuff was pretty tight.

They would they could be making changes up until basically the last like week or two of before it shipped.

So it was, it was bananas.

I mean, it worked sometimes in in a good ways.

Other times it just meant they kept changing their minds constantly and it led to kind of a janky experience.

And maybe it wasn't always as play tested as they'd like, but.

I've worked at those kind of jobs.

Well, sadly, like that's the same way with film and TV too.

I mean, I've had like loved ones that worked at Pixar and it's the same situation there.

They keep changing their minds over and over and over again.

They don't change the due date.

And then the final product is sort of sort of a weird mess because they just couldn't pick a lane and stick with it.

Yep.

But that's commercial entertainment for you.

You know, that's no matter where you go.

I think that's a challenge.

But so anything else you want to plug?

Do you want to plug your your current gig at all?

Or or anything else.

Sure.

Yeah.

So I'm on marketing lead on Poppy Playtime, which is the kind of like mascot horror franchise that your little brother or nephew or somebody is probably obsessed with.

We had Chapter 4 of our Poppy Playtime franchise come out in January.

We've got some new stuff coming down the pipeline.

The rest of this year is going to be crazy.

So just follow mob entertainment on socials that's you're seeing stuff on there.

It's me and my team.

So yeah, look forward to it I guess and.

And what about what about your personal like blue sky?

Or do you want to leave that a mystery?

Oh yeah, no, no, I'm on blue sky at I think Kinji soft dot blue sky dot social.

I supposedly just me posting about stuff I'm excited about.

I tend to be very like just the cheerleader for things like usually anime and colorful video games like hi-fi Rush.

I won't shut up about that game.

I literally bought like 5 copies of that game.

For people being like you need to play this game.

It's that it's amazing.

If you're if you're interested in that, then sure, just watch me talk about One Piece a lot probably.

Well, yeah.

And I mean, you know, we've talked privately a little bit about this, but I commend your ability to remain optimistic and A and a big cheerleader for, for entertainment and, and media and, and everything in the face of such great, terrible adversity that like I personally have have quite given up about anything being good and getting my the rest of my life.

I totally get that.

Like honestly, I it's more like a coping mechanism for the world we're in that I would rather spend my energy cheerleading things that that I from awesome people, I see the good people are trying to do out there and I want to do what I can to like lift them up in whatever way I can.

That's why I am trying to be the best version.

I'm a marketing person I can, which is to just put that energy behind supporting creative folks, getting their work out there and finding an audience.

Because like, I don't care about the numbers.

I only care about lifting up art and the artists that make that art, you know?

Like, to me, if I'm doing that, I'm doing my part to make the world a less terrible, cynical, negative, toxic space.

Yeah, I mean, well, more, more power to you.

It could sometimes be kind of a hopeless situation, but I do what I can.

It's the the alternative is to just give up.

And I'm like, I don't, I'm not right there yet.

I'm getting there, but I'm not there yet.

Well, hopefully I don't drag you down into the into the give up muck.

But Alan, I'm going.

To make you more hopeful, I'm going to make you more hopeful.

By hook or by crook, dammit.

Maybe, maybe you'll get me there.

Alan, thank you so much.

This has been a absolute pleasure.

Thank you.

You the maximum utmost guest we talked to today.

Thanks for being on the show.

Every time I start to play one of those games, something happens and my brain just leaves the room.

I just can't absorb it.

Yeah, I picked up the first one at launch.

Apparently I put 11 hours into it, but there were a couple issues that I had, which was one, it feels like a four player game and I only had my lonesome, so I felt like I was not getting the right experience.

But also I hate Claptrap.

I hate him, the little robot guy.

Yeah, I hate him so much.

I don't know much about him.

Is he?

He's just like, hey, how are you or something like that?

Is he like Bugs Bunny?

Well, sort of.

He's one of those characters who are made to be annoying and the fact that he's annoying is supposed to be like wrap around to funny, but it doesn't work for me.

It's he's just annoying.

Wow jeez, like jar jar Binks accept more attitude.

Like more funky?

Yeah, exactly like that.

A very bad description of any.

Sort of a poochie the dog situation.

Yeah, Simpsons Poochie.

Yeah, so I I did not return for the sequels.

I don't think Anthony started on him until 2 and the writing got much better.

They got Handsome Jack as the villain and stuff like that.

Like I know about him and I've watched clips there.

I like his writing, it's fun.

Tales from the Borderlands was like an RPG and then there's the third one, then there's the pre sequel and then I swear to God he wrote a character for Ash who's a a wacky little little girl.

She got a Roxy isn't it?

Mad moxy I think.

Oh no.

Tiny, tiny.

Tiny Tina.

That's it.

Yeah, totally forgot all this stuff.

And I, I know it.

And I didn't even play the game.

I know exactly that's how it's permeated.

And then there was the movie with Cate Blanchett, which which did real bad.

I haven't seen it.

Don't think Anthony was involved in that in any way.

And now this.

This 4th 1's coming.

You know, I wish I loved anything as much as Alan and loves Borderlands.

Yeah, it's so good to be able to really connect with something and run with it for like, absolutely years of your life.

Absolutely.

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

Well, I love this show.

I've run with it for months now and more to come.

I'm so glad we're doing it.

And we're going to sneakily try to record another one in like 20 minutes.

I think so.

We'll see what happens.

Can we do it?

To put it in a way, you'd do it like there's been like 6 episodes of this show, this was the 4th 1.

It's kind of almost kind of true.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I guess we'll, we'll sign off and then start recording another one, which will be a lot of fun.

Listeners, we love you.

Give us the money on the Patreon.

We'll send you comics.

It's going to be good.

If you want to stay thickly fresh, call 1900.

Mix a lot, don't do it.

Don't.

I wonder what you get?

Have we tried calling that number?

Don't, don't.

Don't do it, audience.

Don't do it.

I'm worried it's going to give me a virus.

It'll cost you so much money.

Yeah, or just, you know, hurt you, infect you on the way back.

You know, it's just not clean.

But they can sign up to the Patreon.

We'll send them stuff when I finish making it and they can check out Zoe and me on the Maximum Utmost pod.

No, this is the podcast, the web pod, the website where we do the writing.

Zoe's always writing on there.

I'm trying to write more stuff.

Somebody who writes for like Polygon or something.

Really like the hamburger thing that we did.

Zoe, I wrote a hamburger thing and you fixed it up.

Made it worth reading.

And they were like, I love this article.

So we've got potential.

I'm doing good.

I don't think I fixed that one up, did I?

Or.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You were like, so I love it.

Very awkward.

Unfortunately, I'm like rode as fast as I could in between the the problems at my day job.

And you were like, I'll fix it up.

You were like all caps and happy.

And I was like, she's the best.

And then I read it and I'm like, thank God she fixed this sucker up because God damn, what did I do?

Your memory is concerning because I I don't write no caps or one thing.

No, no, it was.

I'm sorry.

It wasn't caps, it was exclamation.

Points.

Yeah, I do sometimes use exclamation points.

I remember there being 3, but I bet there was only one.

I don't use them in a row, no, but I'm trying to be very supportive.

Those exclamation marks come in, but I also didn't say unfortunately awkward.

I'm pretty sure I said something along the lines of your unique brand of awkward.

Yeah, I I decode that and take it more insultingly than I should, so that's on me.

It's it's endearing.

Feelings Mutual.

Anything you want to plug, Daniel before we plug out this episode and plug into the new one?

No, I just hope people keep listening and if they jump on the Patreon all the money comes to me.

Maybe if enough people chip in, we could split the money.

That would be fun.

All right, well, that's it for this one.

Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

We'll see you next time.

See you next time.

You've been listening to Maximum Utcast, which is hosted by Zoe and Jonathan with editing, production and music by Daniel.

You can support the show and get exclusive bonuses on patreon@patreon.com/T TWAV.

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Thanks for listening.

Howdy, partners.

Here's an update about the comic.

It's definitely coming out soon, but Jonathan needs to put the finishing touches on it.

So it's an error in your favor, which means if you missed last week's cut off date, but you still want the comic, you have a little bit more time.

Make sure you sign up on Patreon at any paid tier and you'll get it as soon as it's hot off the presents.

And thanks as always to all of our supporters, but especially to our $5 and up supporters like Alana G, Benjamin S, Benjamin V, Bo M, Carson, A Evan Forest R, Jeff P Kiat, Ricardo V, Samuel P, Simon L Condor of Chungus, Bear of Dinkus, Minion of John Con Soda, Baby Vanilla, a Counter 5th Amber D, Midlife, Stasis, Savor in the Mouthfeel, Shy Fox and UNB.

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