Welcome to Fear Coded, a podcast where we talk about media from the horror genre and take a queer reading of a single book, video game, film, podcast or TV show to explore just how queer horror can be.

This month we have been relegated to the kids table, but jokes on the grown-ups.

We're going to be the podcast and talk about all the media aimed at children with a taste for horror while we're here.

And to start with, we're going over The Garden Wall, the 2014 limited series by Patrick McHale.

I'm Marilee.

I'm Tyler.

And I'm David.

And we want to thank all the bats in our belfry for being part of our amazing community by supporting your coated Patreon.

Thank you so much to Will, Knight of Cups, Doug, Jacob, Alyssa, Blake, Puckish, Rogue, Tyler, Derrick and Maureen.

Now before we sing a song about potatoes in molasses, I want to say hello and check in with my Co host.

Find out how things are going for them in a landscape of horrors that our real world has to offer.

What's making y'all feel scared or what's making you feel prepared?

Y'all I come today scared.

I'm back.

I'm back in my hidey hole.

You know, Halloween may be over, but that doesn't mean that the fear cannot continue.

What am I afraid of?

You know, for a few months now, for a few months now, Mike has been dating this delightful young man.

But I'm afraid of him because he's a weeb.

And so there's a weeb in my life and I can't escape him.

He plays Tension Impact, he loves Genshin Impact.

He talked to me for a solid 45 minutes about the SCP the other day and a poor Mike was like, I have no idea what's going on.

And I was like, wow, the tether that I've got for this is already pretty light.

But God bless him, he, you know, he loves the thing he loves and that's beautiful.

It just scares me a little bit because it's so much.

It's so foreign to me.

Well, good news is I'm attracted to like all, like anyone who's like a weeb and a super nerd and then hyperfixates and then tells me about their hyperfixation for 45 minutes.

I just have hard eyes on my face.

So please, Dave, do you want me to for a weekend?

Do you want, if you want to like tag me in.

I'll fly over to Spain and I'll I'll talk to him about SPS.

Thank you.

I'll give you a mic a break.

The other weird thing is that outside of this, his unique interest which I think are more generated off of age and access to things, he's like looking at me from 20 years ago.

It's like, it's wild how similar we are.

Wow.

Well, good to know your husband has a type.

It's you.

He's got a type.

He's got a type.

Yeah, me, but in my 20s, so that's good to know.

That always feels.

Great, I'm sure never be there again.

But no, like he has this, he has the same way of like just like me.

If I go and buy a pair of shoes, I would love to buy 20 pairs of the exact same shoe because I never want to think about it again and I just want to keep wearing that shoe until the end of time.

Or that neither of us can ever be sated when we sit down to eat.

There's so much similarity and the the the path divides in interests.

And so it's very exciting having someone new in our lives.

But wow, I'm just being exposed to so much more.

Well, David, like, I mean, if you think about it like SCP's anime, all that stuff, isn't that kind of like the equivalent of what you were into when you were his age?

That's what I'm saying.

That's what I'm saying.

We just hadn't.

We hadn't crossed the ocean to meet Japan when I was in my 20s.

So that's, that's, that's the difference between our our two exposures to different types of media.

I know you guys were still figuring out how to make like like little pinwheels and a stick and hoop sort of thing back at that time.

You know, I had, I had a very successful podcast about a stick and a hoop.

So we were, we went for 100 episodes.

Thank you very much, Tyler.

100 episodes.

It's just you like travelling from town to town talking about how great stick and Hoop is.

Stick and hoop.

This fucking thing.

Push it with a stick.

The hoop keeps going.

It's fucking amazing.

Incredible.

God.

Well, I am feeling a bit scared this week.

I'm afraid so.

I'm joining you as well, David.

Come on in, it's a safe space.

I have I had a very lovely vacation with my friends Jacob Hi.

But I got sick.

I got like I came down with a cold like part part of the way through.

Thankfully it was really, really mild.

It's been really, really mild.

And I, you know, I've, I've felt so bad having this happen, which like is so silly because it's like I can't fucking control like my body like that.

No, but it's just one of those things that always makes me feel bad.

Like whenever I get sick, my brain just goes into like, wow, not only are you a terrible person, but everything sucks.

And, you know, why don't we just crawl into like a little cave and watch, you know, a bunch of movies all day instead?

So I've been sick and I'm scared of that.

I am starting to get better.

I still sound a little adjusted.

So sorry, audience, but yeah, I've, I'm, I'm just tired of it.

I know there's also like a cold that's been going around and it's just like I, I wish we could figure out how to cure the common cold, even though I know that's not really possible.

It's not.

It's not.

No, no.

You know, can I, can I push back on that just a teeny, teeny bit?

Tyler, the way that you, you say that you feel bad when you get sick, as if being sick is a moral failing like that.

You know, is, is, is kind of a little bit insane, right?

Like that is that is corporate like production culture eating inside of your own mind trying to say that because you are not 100% effective, you are have less worth and it's a moral failing.

And that's like insane and not true and you deserve the time to heal and not be productive.

Like so, please consider this going forward.

I agree with you merrily when it comes to other people.

When it happens to me, it's my fault and it's immoral.

OK OK yeah, you know Tyler, we covered all of the moral failings on episode 26 of Hoop cast.

So if you would just go back and listen to that, you would know all the ways that we we documented the ways that pilgrims are, are morally failing this country.

So all.

Right, let me let me get in my old like buggy, my horse and buggy.

Yeah, right.

Go over to the windmill where electricity is being generated and see if I could get the spirits to recommunicate the podcast to me.

Yeah, yeah.

We have to send too on vinyl because that was the only way it was distributed.

Thank God I have a record player.

A phonograph please.

A phonograph?

Yes, of course.

What am I saying?

Well, I'm sorry that you were I'll Tyler.

It sucks that it happened on vacation too.

Yeah, that's the worst part.

Yeah, At least if you'd gotten really sick during the work week and your employer, you know, wasn't draconian, you could at least be like, well, fuck work, I can't work because I'm sick.

But when you're on vacation, you're kind of like, no, like I have.

I have nothing to, like, even find a glimmer of hope for.

Yeah, the worst.

The worst?

And you do, you do sound so much better now, Tyler.

Yeah.

But I I have concerns about that because sometimes when you're getting over an illness and you sound better is sometimes when you feel the worst.

Yeah.

Oh no, that's great.

Wow.

No, no, no, I am.

The last couple days I have slowly been feeling better.

Yeah, and today just feels like another one.

I did find out, though, that if you use Afrin, which is a nasal spray for more than three days, that could cause like a blowback.

So don't do that.

And then also if you take Nyquil and you are also taking certain antidepressants that can really fuck with your body.

And so you don't know.

And I have discovered also that is what could cause night sweats which explains why I waking up and I am like both very cold and very hot.

Yeah, Ouch.

All of you listen.

Very.

Bad.

Yeah, lots of learning.

Lots of learning this week.

That's good.

It's good to learn things.

We love to learn.

Yeah, merrily.

I would love to learn.

Are you feeling scared or prepared today?

Listen, not to be a combo breaker, but I am.

Bring it, bring it.

How's us?

How's us from our fears?

Marilee, what makes you feel prepared this week?

So here's the thing.

A little while back I was having some problems with my microphones.

The audience didn't notice it because of course David is a wizard.

But I, you know, it was a big deal to me to like that I needed to have a better microphone.

I bought 1 temporarily, but I just was like searching, trying to find what would be a really good podcast microphone for me going forward.

And I mentioned this struggle that I was having to chills of the Glitter Jaw podcast, the Q Division.

But Shells also has a couple other shows, including Anna Rewatch Pod and a new show that's coming out next year that I'm going to tell you about in a second.

And Shells had a backup microphone that they just sent me for free, and it's incredible.

God Chel's patron St.

of the podcast.

Really truly I am super prepared and I just wanted to have a quick little shout out and say thank you to my baby Angel Chel's for making me sound so nice right now.

You could do no wrong.

Please come back on the podcast.

Come back on the podcast Chel's defend yourself from normally our threat whenever we say that.

No, but I mean most of the time when you when Chel's is mentioned in a sentence defend yourself is also in the saying that's mentioned in the sentence Chel's defenders.

But just, you know, it was such a kindness and, and they were like, no, I just have this, it's in my house, take it.

And it's, it's such a nice microphone.

And I, I really am so touched and honored by that.

How wonderful.

Thank you, Chelse.

That being said, your Patreon dollars still continue to support this podcast, so please visit patreon.com/creditpodcast.

Bonuses start at $3 just.

Listen, come at me.

Defend yourself, audience.

No audience.

Come on the pod.

Yeah.

Audience come on the pod.

No no no, they can't do that because we have a lot to dig into today.

Today we are discussing over the Garden Wall, A10 episode limited series that aired on Cartoon Network and is considered a classic and autumnal tradition in the decade since it first aired.

Many fans TuneIn for a revisit as soon as the weather starts to turn cold.

The Serious follows brothers Work and Greg, plus their unnamed frog as they explore the mysterious forested world of the unknown.

They meet colorful inhabitants that live there, like the talking Bluebird, Beatrice and the Woodsman as they try to find their way home.

But things aren't quite what they seem, and there is more danger that they know, like the beast that lurks in the woods.

The series is comprised of 1011 minute episodes.

Today we are going to be talking about the show in its entirety.

So what is our experience with Over the Garden Wall?

I believe I first saw the show streaming a few years after its premiere, so it came out and 2014.

So I think maybe like 2017 or 2016, Maybe it was 2016 because I needed something positive to watch.

Mood.

Though, But it's always interesting because I remember hearing people talking about watching Over the Garden Wall as a Halloween show, but I actually always used to watch it.

Or typically I watch it throughout the month of November because I start Halloween night with like the first 3 episodes and then I just kind of space out the others throughout the rest of the month.

OK, And it feels good because like as this as like the show progresses, the the season starts to turn colder and I usually try to wrap up around Thanksgiving because that's like, OK, Christmas is about to start.

So we got to finish this up.

But you know, I, I really like watching it that way.

It works for me.

I like having my own tradition to go with it for the pod.

This was the first time I ever sat down and watched it in its entirety.

I didn't realize it was 2 hours long.

Like yes.

They add up.

Those add up.

Those numbers add up.

11 minutes adds up.

Well, tell me David, what did, what did you, what was your experience with over the Garden wall?

You know, first time I even heard of it was our Q&A from last year, last year's Q&A, not our most recent one.

So back in 2024 when we did our Q&A episode and we talked about, I don't even remember what the topic was, maybe things that got us in the mood for Halloween or the autumnal season.

And I think this was Tyler's answer.

And both of you were like really on it.

I believe Tyler's exact words were we can't cover this for the podcast.

And merrily it was like, I bet we can.

That does sound like me.

Yeah, yeah.

This is my first time watching it truly and honestly I had no experience with it before.

As for me, I watched the first episode on Tumblr in 2014 when it was making the rounds.

I I'm not sure if I watched the series as it premiered, but if I didn't do that it was very shortly after.

So I'm I hate to say it but I am an OG over the Garden Wall fan.

OGOTGW.

That's true.

I get I sound so, but like that is that is truly my history.

Like when the first episode dropped it went like at least slightly viral, especially with the kind of people that I am.

Which is of course a weirdo who likes Halloween and autumnal stuff and also loves animation.

So I saw this pretty much immediately afterwards and I think I watched the series as it premiered, but I could it could have just been all as one watch later, but very in 2014 for sure.

Do you like Tyler?

Revisit this on a regular basis like so many of the fans of the series do.

I try to watch it at least once a year, but that is not always the case.

I do have the DVD though, so in case somebody tries to pull a fast one and take it off streaming yet again ain't catching me slipping.

Same same.

I did the exact same thing you did merely when they took Infinity Train, I think it was called.

God, I loved Infinity Train and it just disappeared from the ether.

I was like, I I have to buy over the ground in the wall.

Yeah, I have to get it.

It's physical media.

Physical media's integral.

I was doing my research and I've have actually never watched the DVD.

I have.

It's always just kind of like in case of emergency brake glass kind of thing.

But it turns out there's like actually a lot of interesting bonus features on there.

There's a version of the show where you can watch it with just the music and animation, but there's no dialogue.

That's right.

Which I thought would be kind of like an interesting way to watch it.

But yeah, no, I I'm right there with you.

Really like physical media.

Like all the way.

Yeah, no, I have watched it with the the Pat McHale commentary and the just no words, just music and and there are lots of other fun stuff on the DVD as well.

I highly recommend it.

I do also have a vinyl version of the soundtrack, by the way, which is just phenomenal.

Nice.

Merrily keeps right next to the entire collection of hoop cast, which is also on her.

Shelf.

It's true.

Yeah, I have the photograph.

Listen, I got to tell you, if you haven't listened to Hoop Cast, you've missed it.

It was it was a good podcast.

Get that crankin arm ready, it's a good time.

I just had there's just like whole like wardrobes full of these vinyl episodes of Hoop Cast.

Again, it is not vinyl, it is on a phonograph.

Come on, Tyler, OH.

God I Well, to be fair, I don't know what phonograph discs are made of so.

Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring the party down a little bit.

I, I don't, I don't know when we were going to get to this, so we may as well put it out here, if not the first.

This supremely did not work for me, so I'm gonna keep spirits high and be into something you're both into.

This is usually Marilee's job.

It's true, yeah.

So I'm gonna I'm gonna be the one bringing us down a little bit today.

Almost turned the series off a couple times, but I did make it.

And so we will talk about that as we go.

Wow.

Well, let's let's dive into actual criticism of the show in that case, both positive and negative as we talk about the theme.

So our first theme would be fairy tale whimsy.

So steeped in classic Americana aesthetics of the 19th and 20th centuries and running on a kind of dreamy fairy tale logic, it's easy to picture the series as being completely out of time.

The unknown could be anywhere, anyone with Wirt and Greg running into Hefalump and Woozles in the 100 Acre Woods instead of Beatrice and the Beast.

Personally, I found that the the thing that really sells this is the art design.

Yeah, I think I think something that we can all agree on is that this is a very beautiful show.

Yes.

There Mikhail has talked about his references to Americana, things like old Halloween postcards from like the Victorian era to different forms of animation throughout history.

One of the reasons I really enjoy watching over there on Wall every year is because I like that it kind of feels like a love letter to the history of animation.

There's a lot of cool animation tricks that are being used in here.

There's a lot of references to things.

The music plays into that as well with the types of songs that are being sung.

And so it feels very unique in a way that kind of reminds me of what Tolkien was trying to do with Lord of the Rains, where he was like, I want to create a mythology for Great Britain.

This feels like let's create a mythology for America, which I like Success, failure, whatever.

I always love it whenever a creator takes a shot like that.

I think that is really cool because America is the is so fucking young in the grand history of things that it's it's kind of interesting to to see how how we define America through art.

Yeah, I think that's a really excellent point.

I just, I really do feel like the animation of music together brings this show a very timeless feel and I think that that is really important to making the gag of the first couple episodes versus the last couple work.

Yeah, and so I think the other side of the coin then for me, because I also the visuals are fantastic and I might truly enjoy watching this without dialogue because the music and visuals are like to die for.

This is a gorgeous piece of art.

The writing is not as strong, the story is not as strong as the visuals and the art allow it to be.

A lot of contemporary reviews pointed this out as well.

Robert Lloyd, writing for the LA Times, said that the writing is a little too intent on its own folksy Ness.

And Mike Hale for the New York Times wrote writing was sometimes weak and the stories perilously thin.

And that's what I ran into.

And where I think I got the most stuck and hung up on was that I was looking at something that I can understand why visually is so beloved.

And yet there were moments where the writing, the dialogue or the story just screeched to a halt or went in a bizarre direction that the art and music did not support.

That's interesting criticism of it.

I think merely I just heard you gasp, but what did you want to?

Say no, I just, it's like it was a noise of affirmation of like, I understand why he would think that.

Moreover, I do think the fact that David just sat there and watched it all in one sitting does mean it suffers a little bit.

Because I do think that like, you can watch it all as one.

And I think when you already know and love this story, then that's OK.

But I do think that, like shotgunning, the series does.

Maybe do a little bit of a disservice.

I agree, I think it does.

I think I do not find this to be a perfect show by any means and I love watching it every year.

But I do have issues with it and I think part of that has to do with pacing.

The storylines are not given enough room to breathe because it is a short.

And so every story has to be self-contained within 11 minutes.

And so some things are dismissed as a gag.

Some things are dismissed as just like, OK, it just didn't go that way.

And that's one of the issues that I've always had with the show.

But it's never been enough for me to like, like, David, turn it off.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a very valid opinion for you to have, David.

But I like, it's never bothered me to quite that point.

But I do agree, like, the writing does tend to suffer sometimes because of that.

I think if the show had been extended, so each episode was maybe like 24 minutes and it was still kept to a mini series, we would be having it for a discussion.

Yeah, yeah.

What's wild is I think both were true.

There were times in which I felt like there was too much for 11 minutes, and then there was a time with 11 minutes on the clock.

I was checking my watch every 30 seconds and that maybe the incongruence of that was the bigger issue.

I also heard how to say like, I just, I don't have child child like whimsy.

Like that's just not my, it's not my default setting.

I, I, I, I came out an old Crone and I'll leave an old Crone, gosh darn it.

And that's fine.

There are just things that aren't for me in this world.

I'm going to be honest, David, I saw your, your, I can't believe we called them skeets.

But yes, I saw your blue sky skeet about how you didn't have childlike whimsy.

And I clocked immediately he's like, oh, he just watched the show.

We're going to have an interesting time when we record.

And I love that.

I know you well enough to know that.

Yeah, and to my followers, you don't need to fix my lack of child like whimsy.

I just don't have it.

It's just not, it didn't come with my model.

I got other things like the ability to use Excel.

Yeah.

Listen, we all have strengths.

I can have your whimsy.

You could have your Excel powers.

There we go.

So damn straight we're going to V look up this shit.

Well, Speaking of shit, our next theme is shit gets real.

The first few episodes seem like a grand adventure narrative, sure, but things steadily grow darker until the penultimate episode pulls the rug out from under the viewer and reveals that the story has actually been set in the 1980s, with Wert and Greg drowning the whole time in the real world.

Quite the reveal.

I I've personally always loved this reveal.

It feels very archetypical Wizard of Oz to me.

Plus in the real world you could spot all sorts of references to the world and denizens of the unknown.

Like Quincy Endicott's tombstone is in the graveyard, which is the proverbial garden.

I, I always found it to be kind of fun in that way.

It's and I really like those kind of narratives as well.

Those speak to some sort of emotional connection that I have to the like the, the fairy tale or fantasy genre.

I think it was one of the reasons why I loved Harry Potter growing up so much, cursed be its name.

But you know, I, I like the idea that there was another world that you can escape to and you could be the hero.

You can run into all sorts of fantastical creatures and then you and then you come home and you come home a better person or you're changed in some way.

I, I really like those kinds of narratives.

And so this really works for me.

And then I actually posted I'm, I'm not going to call it a skeet.

I refuse.

I posted on Blue Sky when I was watching this and I finished it and I was, and I said that the show always makes me so melancholy that it ends and no other show does that.

No other story really does that for me because I want to go back and explore that world.

I find it so beautiful.

And so when it's over, I I'm sad and I think that speaks to the emotional impact that it has on me because it does work for me quite well emotionally.

I have a lot of connections to the show and like that kind of genre reminds me of when I was young and full of childlike whimsy.

I love that.

And and you know, like, like you like looking back and seeing the real world reflected in the unknown.

I do think it's really fun that if you're paying attention, you can find the opposite and find the real world in the unknown.

Like if there are lots of weirdly modern dialogue choices that happen, like where it's asking for looking for a phone or, or talking about high school and and those are actually hints of the reveal, which I think is very fun.

Yeah, the reveal didn't work for me, possibly because I buy 9 in and longer than Jurassic Park.

I I, I had not yet really bought into the series and then so then doing a rug poll for me did did not endear me to any of the the following.

And I I actually kind of felt like the Oz metaphor is so apartment.

And if that's what we had gotten Hallelujah.

But I just don't feel like it was earned because the for for 8 episodes.

I had learned that there are really no consequences for your actions.

And that means that there are no consequences for this flashback.

It it this is where this is one of the times that I was like, how much more do I have to go?

And to know there was only one episode and I was like, I'm gonna keep going.

I'm gonna make it, which is a shame.

I love a flashback episode.

The episode 9.

It's 9 right.

That is the yes, the flashback fucking one of the best looking ones of the series just because it's taking the art of a Mystic world and applying it to a modern and normal 1.

And it is.

It is a very, very exceptional thing to do and I loved that.

But the content of it didn't end up working for me, and so they reveal subsequently didn't really work.

Interesting.

Yeah, OK.

I really do feel like because like you and I, Tyler, have like a decade of love built in.

It's it's difficult for us to to like navigate around the flaws that do exist in the story.

And I think that David is like your perspective on this is really interesting.

Yeah, David, I'm like, I don't want you to feel like you have to be a cheerleader for us with this episode, like.

I am a cheerleader for both of you because I love that it brings you joy.

It's just not.

It didn't bring me joy.

And I'll tell you it did not bring Mr.

Arnold joy either.

He left.

Wow, what about the young David from the in the 20s did he enjoy?

It sadly not staying over when we watch this.

OK.

Maybe I'll, maybe I'll show it to him.

That's a one day.

Well, David, you not liking the show?

Sounds like it's a burden for you to bear.

Which leads us in.

Yes, top ten, Top ten transition on this podcast.

Yeah, we get real sweaty on transitions sometimes.

You're killing it today.

Tyler Wow.

Which is really.

Because I'm getting the Nyquil sweats right now.

Fuck, I was gonna make that show, God damn.

I'm on it.

All right, so our next and final theme for Over the Garden Wall is your burden to Bear.

While Greg adores his brother, Wert has a much more complicated relationship with Greg.

Not only is he a much younger half brother to his mother's second marriage, Wert is also constantly blaming his brother for getting them both into the situations that they're in.

In many ways, Over the Garden Wall is a coming Asian narrative showing work growing up to take responsibility for his brother and to care for him more completely.

I enjoy Wert's character progression.

I think this is large part due to Elijah Wood's performance.

I think work is not as pleasant or as just a a good character without Elijah Wood's performance.

100% agree.

Yeah I think that without Elijah Wood would be insufferable.

However, they did get an actor that could make me relate to anybody.

So great casting.

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah, pretty much.

I, I, I do think that there are time.

I think if the show had just been longer, I'm going to keep saying that like if each episode had been longer, it would have been nice to spend some more time developing work as a character.

I think a lot of work's character is told to work and therefore told to the audience, but work does not always demonstrate that.

And I think it's interesting because I think that actually is called out in the narrative, but just because it's kind of like referenced in the narrative doesn't totally justify it.

So like, I, I find Elijah Wood really does a lot of work to make work so pleasant to be around.

And like for that, Mister Woods, you, you nailed it.

Please, Elijah Woods, come on the podcast.

Come.

On come on the podcast, defend yourself from my love.

Yeah, I it's funny because when you first of all, I will just say a lot has been written about over the garden wall to the point that I had to remind myself that when this came out, it was a different Internet.

It was an Internet that paid people to write things, even if those things only had a tether.

In this reality, people were were paid to write things.

And so there's a lot written about this series with some very tenuous thesis statements, but one I kept seeing was like, this is the best children's coming of age story.

And my friends, it is not a very good coming of age story for a child.

It is it doesn't do what a Buildings Roman does.

If Wert had woken up and Gregory wasn't real, but a part of his psyche, that could have been interesting.

If if this had all been a dream.

This of course there's.

As we will discuss, there are two major thoughts about the ending of this series.

It was all real or it was all a dream.

A death sequence dream if Wert's sort of struggle with who he was and who he traveled through this world.

My younger self represented by Gregory and my current self represented by Wert.

And when he woke up, he was reconciling that.

That could have been an interesting coming of age narrative.

But the story that we got is fun.

Wert's journey is delightful, but I don't think about it so much as a coming of age narrative.

See, that's so it's.

Really more of a hero's journey.

It's a hero's journey, yeah.

Absolutely no.

It is a hero's journey and, and, and I do think that that's like a really interesting point, but I do think that your, your idea that like Greg is part of word does come from the fact that you are an only child.

And I could tell that you are an only child because of that opinion.

Because like again, I do have siblings.

I have an unrealistic standard of siblings because I get along with all of them.

But that wasn't always the case when we were younger.

And so I do see a lot of like the older child's with much younger sibling thing happening in their relationship.

But I do think like it's essential to the series to understand that work didn't like his brother in the beginning and then at the end he his first thought as soon as he wakes up is Greg.

And he like cares about him in a much more profound way that he did before.

I think that's closer to my reading as well.

I think if anything, Greg is the one who has a little bit more of a coming of age narrative because at the start he's just silly rock facts.

Yeah, I'm leaving candy trails and everything.

But at the end, he is willing to sacrifice his life for work.

And he is also shown to be like pretty clever overall.

Like like you think he's he's the fool, Like he's he's really silly.

But he does make people's lives better and he is able to kind of like come up with interesting ways to solve the beasts riddles by the end.

And he also just eventually admits that he stole the rock from the rock facts.

So to me that feels like a designation of maturity.

So that does feel like more of a coming of age narrative to me is for Greg, whereas work is more of a traditional heroes narrative like a Joseph Campbell kind of.

Cycles and not to steal your Thunder, but at an 11 minute episode, I never feel like we get to know each of them enough to really even track that that progress the way that we would in a novel, the way that we did would in a longer series or the way that we would in it in an honest to God feature.

Because I think I think part of me going into this was thinking this was more like a feature that was told over 10 episodes.

This is 10 episodes.

Truly and honestly, this is a limited series and every meaning of the word.

Yeah, because I think we also have to keep in mind this is aimed at children.

And so I think children would have a better job handling the series if each episode was a self-contained narrative with a slight through line that goes beyond just like we have to get home.

So I think that is also something for us to kind of keep in mind, not to say like, oh, that means over in the garden wall gets a pass on anything critical that we give.

No, nothing ever gets a pass.

I think that is, no, they never gets a pass here.

But, you know, I think that is another thing that we have to kind of remind ourselves, like, OK, why did they make this choice?

It's because of the genre trappings and the limitations of being in a mini series on a nationally broadcast television channel.

Yeah, that sells commercials, you know?

Yes.

And it made a very specific investment in their cartoon brand during this year.

I'll talk a little bit more about that when we talk about if it's queer.

But before we do that, there's a first question that we must ask of every media we consider here for the Fair Coded podcast, which is is it horror?

Would you all consider Over the Garden Wall horror for consideration as part of the other things that we discuss on POD?

I would say yes, I think it is.

I think it's children's horror.

And I think that's this is something that we will also have to remind ourselves of as the month progresses.

Does is it scary?

Is it scary?

For how long?

How scary is it?

So if something scary shows up, so like in the first episode, there's the dog monster with big scary eyes that's trying to kill and eat two children, that is horror.

Straight up.

Grimm's Fairy Tale.

Very horror.

Very horror.

Yeah, however.

However.

And I think this, I think this is I think this is something I'm going to run into all month long as we talk.

But I think that in order to make it also palatable for a child who doesn't talk to their therapist about this for the next 20 years, you have to have it cut to to Greg being like, I'm Greg.

Here's Candy.

And those, if they were a little less frequent, I think would have kept me in in episode 1.

They're a lot, but even when we get some of the great horrific designs later, there's a lot of cut to Greg doing something inane that that works to cut the horror, but I think is maybe just too heavy of a coat of paint on that particular way of of being.

That's interesting.

Yeah.

OK, I see that.

I also think per Merrily's comments, watching this back-to-back to back-to-back, you notice things like we've cut to Greg again to make this a little less scary.

Whereas if I think I had watched 2 episodes a night for five nights in a row, which that was the broadcast if I remember correctly from I think.

That sounds right, but simply it's been a decade I have.

No idea.

Yeah, I think you're right.

David I.

Think it was November 2nd to the 7th.

They did 2A night in a 30 minute block.

I think that if I had done that, I wouldn't have become so waylaid.

I also think that once I read that I did the math and odd numbered episodes were the things that I thought about piercing out for and the even number kept me back in it.

So there was intent done to keep you hooked for tomorrow that I was missing on a binge.

That's so interesting.

Yeah, I just like the idea that there is now like a Star Trek movie rule that's being applied to David's experience with the garden.

Wall yeah, you can skip odd numbers that's.

Insane.

Oh my God.

OK, listen, horror, horror, whatever.

Can we consider this miniseries through the lens of queer theory?

Like how are we feeling on this one?

I think due to the nature of it being in miniseries, the genre of it being children's animation and also children's horror, and the relative thinness of characterization because everyone gets a motivating force, but usually just one or two.

There's not really any room for queerness.

There's not any sort of like, there is a like a romantic aspect to work.

He is attracted to a girl named Sarah in the real world and he's clearly hung up on her because he's like a 14 year old boy.

And that's what they do, yes, but there's that's it.

That's that's all you really get.

There's not really any sort of suggestion of romance anywhere else.

If I don't think there's really even anyone that's married to one another.

Oh, what am I saying?

Quincy Endicott that episode.

But even that is kind of played for laughs.

Like it's nothing is treated very seriously that is typically treated seriously in like an adult narrative like romance.

Because we don't have enough time and kids don't really care.

Yeah, I actually found this to be like a very unqueer experience.

I'm I'm excited to hear.

What you, yeah, like I'm really interested in because I know you, David.

I know you've dug into some some weird Cartoon Network back files and have a really interesting story to tell us.

Well, I'm I'm going to do the TV of all this at the end, but I've just got to say on the page words, motivations don't come from a queer place.

OK, Sarah, fine, whatever.

Like you're allowed to be into girls, I guess.

Whatever his, his motivation, it's not even from brotherly love until like the last like little tick of a clock.

So there's not at first I was like, oh, maybe we, I could sort of do this as a found family thing cuz he's sort of 1/2 brother.

Is there something a little bit about that making a new type of family?

But it's not there.

It's played as conflict with them, played as resolution.

His motivations are about winning.

They're about dominance, which is that kind of sucks, honestly, to have to see a preteen or teen go through that and then he is sort of resignation to a system once he reaches his depression point.

Greg, similarly, although I loved Greg, his child like wonder was amazing, but his arc is to sort of be the hero and uphold the systems that are there through faith.

Even our side characters, Melanie Linsky.

You got Melanie Linsky for this queer hero and you make her an Eve.

She committed one sin and must be punished for the entire series from here on forward.

Nothing good happens to Beatrice, and that sucks.

I don't care for that at all.

Even the Woodsman is motivated by a frigged daughter who then like magically, is OK in the end.

I found a lot of this to be a culmination of everything that we've talked about so far on the podcast of like sucky bad, unqueer ways of thinking about characters.

That's.

That's so interesting.

To yeah.

And then like, it's you're not wrong, which is the most devastating part.

My whole thing is that anything can be queer.

So like to push back on that a little bit, but that's mostly just because who I am as a person.

I think you're 100% right, and that sucks.

However, just throwing it out there, the way that work reacts to Jason Funderburger in specific, in the way that he's like, Oh my God, he's the whole package.

Is is he?

I don't think anybody else thinks Jason Funderburger is the whole package besides you, my man.

I think maybe you got a crush.

No, no, no, I, I, I, I don't think he's got a crush.

I think it is that stupid teen boy thing where it's like, Oh my, the girl I like is attracted to this.

I'm doing a Jason Funderburger impression actually.

It's just like, is is clear.

This girl is clearly out of my league, so she's clearly got to go for this other guy.

And.

Then that's just, that's what teen boys do when you're 14.

I remember doing stuff like that when I was 14, David, You probably did stuff like that when you were 14.

Having no experience being a teen boy, I will take your word on this one.

Not yeah, not not to brag, Tyler, but I was Jason Fenderburger.

You got the.

Whole package.

I believe that.

I was the whole back.

Thank you here.

Here's the deal, though.

To add like insult to injury on this one, this all comes during the time when Cartoon Network is investing in what HG Lee called the Kidalt demographic, which are folks who were raised on a very specific type of cartoon that was pandering to them as a young consumer to pull on their nostalgia to drive consumerist behavior.

And Cartoon Network said, we can keep that going and we're going to invest in that.

Which means that they specifically talked to creators about limiting the influence of queer narratives.

You can read a lot about this in the history of Steven Universe.

It's there from Adventure Time.

It's part of all of the series that we're coming out on Cartoon Network during this time and over the garden wall benefits.

Slash is a victim of that time of investment of Cartoon Network.

Interesting.

A.

That sucks.

B Jokes on them.

Trying to go home is a queer narrative, and you can't stop us from claiming that.

That's fair.

Trying to go home is a queer narrative, and I do like that reading merrily.

I mean, it's Dorothy.

Like we're all friends of Dorothy in the end.

That's true.

You're trying to be.

I'm trying to be.

Yeah, also, I think, I think the genre itself of transportation to a fantasy world is queer.

It is a sense, it is a type of wish fulfillment for people who, like me, were growing up in a world where I was like, I can't be the person I want to be.

Maybe I can go to a place where I can.

And I think in that sense, this is very queer.

This is a very queer theoretical genre, you know, like, I, like no one is being gay in this.

The gayness outlawed, you know, there's no gayness in, in the unknown.

But like outwardly, wink, wink.

But like, I think the genre itself and just the idea of I, I wish I could be somewhere better.

Yeah.

Where somewhere where I could be a hero is queer.

Yeah, and I think it'd be even better if there were a little bit more symbolism that we could draw from.

But 11 minutes an episode, 10 episodes, shaky writing to begin with, but like, you've got Toto already.

That's the frog.

You, you collect characters along the way that could be the Tin Man and the scarecrow and you could have gotten a cowardly lion in there.

But we, we sort of dispense with Fred pretty quickly.

You know, he doesn't go stick around and finish the journey.

Beatrice ends up being a betrayer because she's Eve.

Unfortunately, I just don't think like that that's even working on a symbol level, which is kind of a bummer cuz I think gay people would love that.

They'd eat that up.

We do.

We love.

When there's a door thing, Yeah.

Well then let's dive into the beat by beat for the 10 episodes of Over the Garden Wall.

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The series opens with Wert and Greg discovering they've become lost in the woods.

They run into Beatrice, the talking Bluebird and a woodsman who is worried about their safety with the beast, so he takes them to an abandoned mill he's been using.

Wert worries that the Woodsman means them harm and thinks about knocking out the Woodsman and running away, but gets lost in his own on Wii Greg It goes in search of his missing frog and discovers a horrible creature with glistening eyes and sharp teeth.

Wart and Greg try to escape the Beast question mark and destroy the mill in the process, but discover the beast is just a dog that swallowed some sort of evil turtle.

The Woodsman is horrified about the destroyed mill and tells the boys that it wasn't the beast after all.

He still gives the directions to a town and tells them to get out of the unknown if they can.

So we immediately jump into the boys are lost or confused.

They don't know where they are, but, you know, they've clearly been having a conversation and it's just like you just woke up in a dream, which I think is.

Yeah, yeah.

I think we have to get through a lot of like character work here.

Like, we understand that work is like paranoid, kind of negative glass half empty.

And.

But also, yeah, in that sort of angsty teenager who writes poetry.

Yeah.

Which is exactly who Wert is.

He's an angsty teenager.

Yeah, he is a romantic with a capital R like romantic.

Yeah, like a Percy Shelley, sort of, or by a Lord Byron type of deal.

But then you have Greg, who is the polar opposite of all of those things.

He's very positive.

He he's fun, he's silly, doesn't think things through, and is very impulsive.

He also says things like beans and ain't that just the way, which are now part of my regular vocabulary.

Yeah, I said, ain't that just the way like at least three times this week and not meaning it as a bit And then I clocked it was like, no, that really is just who I am now.

I've also got to give credit, they are both in strange garb.

We've got Wert, who is dressed up with a cone.

Cone what?

Why am I saying cone so weird?

He's got a cone on his head and he's got sort of a cloak frock because he's voiced by Frodo.

It feels very Frodo esque, and so it's hard not to like get a little bit away from that culturalism.

And then Greg, of course, is wearing an upside down teapot on his head.

And it will not be really until the penultimate episode that we get sort of a justification of why this is.

You're just sort of accepting that these are the character designs for these people.

And I don't think it's until we meet the Woodsman that we're like, well, this is kind of like weird for them to be wearing this, but it's just their character design.

And when I finally meet more humans, I'm like, well, I guess that's just their character design.

And to me, it actually kind of works as part of the timelessness that we discussed earlier.

I think both of their outfits are like archaic enough that I believe that they would they belong to this universe.

Like this feels like, you know, we've stepped into early Americana fairy tale sort of things.

Sure, where it is dressed like a garden gnome.

Why not?

Yeah.

This may as well happen.

So I think the designs are really effective in that way.

Yeah.

So I think by and large, everything that we can agree on is this is a very beautiful show.

And so that goes down to the character designs as well.

Well, it's very smart to give Wert headgear that increases his visual presence on screen if the goal of the series is to tell about the difference between these two characters.

Absolutely right.

Yeah.

And like, the cone makes Wert taller and pointier, and the teapot makes Craig seemed short and stout.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

What do we think of like Christopher Lloyd?

Cuz there's there.

We didn't mention this, but there's a lot of big name actors who provide voices in Over the Garden wall and Christopher Lloyd is our first major voice.

Actor.

Besides Melanie Linsky, obviously.

Of course, besides Melanie Linsky, queer icon.

Love her to pieces.

Melanie Linsky, come on the podcast I will truly incinerated like I stared into the Ark of the Covenant.

Sorry anytime I think about Melanie Linski I think about the time when someone said great idea bringing Melanie Linski on to your show.

Now the gays are going to love it.

And Melaninski saying like oh I love you guys and then some random person being like straight people love you too.

And her responding that matters less to me, but thanks.

Yeah, it's so important.

To Iconic, Iconic I I Lloyd is giving his usual brand of excellence.

I think there are a lot of other guest actors who are doing it capital it.

Wow, I didn't even mean for that to be a reference to a later guest star.

But they are doing the most with what they are given and I think Lloyd is just giving me his usual brand of excellence.

OK, Yeah.

He's good, he's really good.

I think he nailed the brief, yes.

Yes, yes, yeah.

He came to work and did a job worth doing.

But I wouldn't have put this up for any sort of award consideration for Lloyd because the bar of Christopher Lloyd, he is, he's meeting the bar that is Christopher Lloyd.

Yeah, yeah, for sure, I think.

And how do we feel about like, the the woods been like kind of narrative misdirection because the Woodsman seemed to be the villain for a while there, and then we discover I know the Woodsman is not the villain, but he's also not totally an ally.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I, I mean, I like all of it because it's told through the kids.

And that is effective in children's horror is letting the children tell me what's scary rather than making me do the homework because I'm not a child.

And I think children need that when they watch horror, and Wert and Greg do a great job on that.

With, again, the caveat that Greg sometimes plays against the horror of it all.

To take a step backwards to the point of even Greg knocking out the Woodsman made me be like, well, then the Woodsman's not a threat.

If Greg can knock him out, then that's that's not a threat.

Yeah, that's fair.

I agree with that.

I, I think that's that is exactly what you said though, David.

It is just kind of like a trapping of it being the children's show, you know?

We can't have overly complicated like layering like this in something so short that is aimed at kids.

Right.

Right, you know, cuz I think like this is, I definitely think that this is a show that is very, to me, smartly written for children.

I think children who watch this, I think they will have a very positive experience.

I think that's scary, but in a way that kind of works for them in the same way like Adventure Time did that to you.

Like, there's some scary shit in Adventure Time, but it's not like Pennywise eating a child's arm, you know, It's nothing like that.

So I think like the monster that we also have in this episode is also really effective too, because that thing does look really scary.

And it's got big, scary glowing eyes and Julie teeth and it helps like, destroy the mill.

Yeah, but at the at the end, we then just find out it's a regular dog that just eat a turtle, which is like ridiculous.

But that's also it's a cartoon.

So I'm yeah, I'm OK with that.

And I overall, I, I do enjoy this episode.

I think it's a good starter.

I think it sets the table really well.

And I think it also sets the tone really well because it's got silliness.

It's got like crazy characters, but it's also got some scary stuff.

But at the end of the day, the scary stuff is not so scary anymore.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Would you say it sets the kids table?

I absolutely would say it sets the kids table.

Well, good thing we're starting with it then.

Absolutely.

But let's move on to our second episode as Wert and Greg move on to hard times at the Huskin B.

So the boys ran into Beatrice yet again when Greg frees her from being stuck in a Bush, meaning she owes him a favor.

Now she tries to bring them to Adelaide, the good woman of the woods, but Wert would rather go to Pottsfield.

On the way, they both step on pumpkins, but they finally made it to society.

They find the entire population of Pottsfield in a barn, bringing pumpkins and celebrating the harvest.

Wert and Beatrice are both unnerved, but Wert asked the resident for help going home.

The thought of leaving, however, causes a commotion until Enoch, the giant pumpkin maypole gets involved.

The three of them get sentenced to a few hours of manual labor for their various crimes.

Their last task is digging holes.

Beatrice is, of course, convinced that they are actually digging their own graves.

Wert thinks that's unlikely until Greg discovers a skeleton.

The skeletons awaken and Don their vegetables, then kids are released to go on their way.

Wert and Greg decide to follow Beatrice to Adelaide, so this is another interesting episode to like kind of jump into and set the stage for what we're going to experience going forward.

I think the introduction of Pottsfield, the town is really effective.

It's very beautifully drawn, very like wonderful colors, actually, like all of the animation and colors and choice of like environmental setting is great.

We have like animals, bugs, things like that.

It makes the world feel alive and it also makes you feel like it's autumn.

Like this show does such a wonderful job of expressing the feeling of autumn.

It's hitting all the right notes.

It's got the colors.

It feels cold when it's cold out, like I I and I think that's one of the reasons why people always return to it around October, November is because it absolutely captures that feeling.

And so and I think hard times at the husk can be is like the number one example of that.

We've got pumpkins with faces, we've got skeletons, we've got turkeys, we've got autumn leaves.

It's it's so beautiful to watch.

I think it's also really cool to listen to because as our heroes are venturing into Pottsfield, they can hear singing coming from the barn where they're having their party.

This is actually something called shape note singing.

If you've ever seen Cold Mountain, this is the type of singing that they're doing in the church when they find out there's a civil war happening.

But it's like a common force in in the in the 18th and 19th century, especially in America.

It's really helpful for people who have low literacy and so kind of just kind of need to like keep rhythm with everyone else.

And so like they do like hand motions to kind of indicate rhythm.

And typically they're singing songs.

But there were also a lot of like children's songs or just like community songs from this time period.

And so I think Mikhail using that is great.

And then if you listen to the lyrics of it as well, it does foreshadow the truth behind the residence box field.

That's so interesting.

Like I thought that this the music, especially in this section was really unique and and also classic in a way that it was very difficult for me to put my finger on knowing the history about shape note singing.

Fascinating and makes perfect sense.

I love that.

I love that.

I also loved all the folk whore of this.

Like I felt this was a gift that you had given me earlier in the year.

I was like, Oh no, a maypole.

I know what that means.

Disaster ahead, and I've got to say that while Christopher Lloyd was doing his usual Christopher Lloyd excellence, Chris Isaac, who voices this like giant pumpkin man fucking killing it here.

This was an incredible performance.

I loved this and so I was very here for this episode.

I thought this was very good, even with a couple of the moments that I thought didn't really play for me as well.

But I but I but Chris Isaac just was stand out for me in this in this sequence.

Absolutely.

And and just so you know, it does reveal later that like Enoch is actually a black cat.

The maypole wasn't sentient.

And I do think that that's even funnier and like more autumnal even that of course it was a black cat.

Who is the weird leader of the Skeleton Pumpkin Village?

Well, it, it's it kind of does that thing that I talked about a little while ago about like Mikhail was inspired by like old Halloween postcards for the Victorian era, a black cat and a pumpkin and a black cat coming out of like pumpkin.

Maypole nails it perfect.

That totally nails the beef.

And I and I love that.

And again, I think this is one of the reasons why the show is such a frequent watch or in in autumn in the US especially, is because of this episode.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I do want to point out that the name Pottsfield comes from the term Pottersfield, which is a graveyard for unclaimed bodies, which I thought was very fun.

Yes.

Horrifying.

I, I agree with you on that.

And I think it also kind of like, I think one of the reasons why people like over the garden wall is that there are a lot of little things like that in there that you kind of notice either based off of researching the show afterwards or rewatching the show every year.

That adds like just kind of like another layer of darkness to it.

And I think that is also something that was really common with Cartoon Network animated series at that time, was that there were darkness present on the surface level, but there were even darker references or jokes or meanings the further you you dug into it.

Yeah.

Yeah, and we love that shit.

Yeah, that was, I think that was another reason why over the Garden Wall was so popular on Tumblr is because Tumblr loves doing that.

They love, you know, the people of Tumblr love digging into the properties that they love to find little things like that because they're like little, almost like Easter egg hunts.

But I think they also add like another layer of appreciation for the show.

OK, well that's enough good things.

Greg Wert and Beatrice are on the road to Adelaide's.

Beatrice tries to tell them to hurry up, but the boys get entangled in the drama.

At a local school run by Miss Langtry, but she's trying to run a school for animals with a broken heart after her beau left her, but Greg thinks it's too bland and boring.

Plus there's a wild gorilla on the loose.

Greg tries to spice things up at lunch by singing about potatoes and molasses when Mr.

Langtry bursts in, objecting a highly to the use of his funds for frivolity, and takes away their instruments.

Break out of the school and discover that Mister Langtry actually took the instruments to sell them.

He's running out of money to fund the school and this is all that he has left.

When he wakes up, he discovers that Greg Wharton, Beatrice took the instruments back and have created a concert for the animals performing to raise money for the school.

Suddenly the wild gorilla appears.

Turns out Missus Langstree's fiance Jimmy didn't abandoned her, he just got stuck inside a gorilla suit.

Now you know whenever you take a group photo and they're like, OK, smile for the camera.

OK, now do a silly one.

This is the silly one.

Yes, Yeah.

No.

Yeah, this is where I almost walked away and it was potatoes and molasses, which goes on too long.

It goes on too long, Tyler.

It goes on too long.

I love potatoes in molasses.

I wish that y'all could see the face reaction that's happening between Tyler and David right now.

This is this is wrong.

This is when Mike left the room and he said, I'm done with this.

I will be in my office.

And I continued on.

And this is where I wrote in my notes, Is it horror?

Because this was This is an episode of Glee.

Just truly and honestly, we've lost the plot a little bit of what's going on here.

This, to me was a big step backwards in the series.

I really like hearing your thoughts on that, David, Cuz I think Michael, when I was doing research on this episode, McHale said that he wanted to do episodes that were really heavy on the kid horror.

But then we're also just kind of like light and silly episodes.

And so this is one of those light and silly episodes.

And it reminds me of things like Richard Scary, like the busy world of Richard Scary.

There's a lot of just kind of like references and silly things.

And it just, it feels like I've stepped into one of those fairy tales, but it's just kind of like the archetype of it, you know?

So I think it's very charming to see small animals dressed up in clothing, having to go to a school and then playing musical instruments.

I just find this episode really charming.

So I'm sorry it didn't work for you, David.

It does work for me really well.

I also love Potatoes in Molasses.

And then I love that at the end of the series, when we find Greg being turned into one of the edelwood trees, there's a version of potatoes in molasses being sung by Greg's voice actor in Latin.

And it's really sad sounding.

I think that's a neat little callback to to later on.

So I will always love this episode.

I also love that a gorilla is the is the villain because that's just so totally random.

And I love that it doesn't fit.

To me, that makes it extra funny because it's just totally innocuous, not innocuous stops to that it's it's just it makes no sense.

And to me that actually works.

I find that silly and charming in its own way, especially because people will be talking about something like rapping, like, you know, talking rhapsodically about something personal in their life.

And then they're like, and then there's also the gorilla on the loose.

And I just find that so funny because it's just me.

There's a gorilla on the loose.

It's so absurd.

Yeah, I had a feeling that David was really going to bounce off this one.

I do think this is one of the weaker episodes of the show, but I still love it completely.

I do think that it's like it is silly, but I I like silly fun.

I do think that the the the gorilla on the loose does give me a little chuckle every time somebody says it.

And and I just we're we're not here to have a serious time and I do like and respect that.

I but I, I knew that David was not going to like this one as soon as soon as I was like, Oh, no, child like whimsy, right, Got it.

I know that about David.

Yes, I find this to be a very whimsical episode, so if you do not have the whimsy, this probably does not work for you.

Oh, did Mikhail work on Adventure Time?

I can tell now.

It is very clear at this episode.

Yeah, David, how do you feel about it, Adventure Time?

Because now I I just realized I don't know your opinion.

Well, well, there's actually a really great gimmicks episode about that, so.

Ah, what episode would that happen to be?

It was about, it was about they brought in a glitch artist to come in and do a glitch.

A glitch is a glitch, glitch is a glitch.

I think was the name of the episode that we covered.

It was a fantastic episode.

I watched a lot of Adventure Time in preparation for that and can also tell you Adventure Time is not for me and I was clocked heartily by Derek of of of him knowing that it would not be for me in advance of that episode.

Yeah, for like little fun behind the scenes stuff.

There are two little things I wanna to point out.

1st, that Miss Langtry's lament is the song that she sings where she's like going through the alphabet and like complaining about her situation and her fiance and all that stuff.

There again, they're only two very short snippets in the song in the episode, I think maybe 3 actually, like you, we get AG and Yi think the entire song, all the letters is on the soundtrack.

And she's so long.

It is like, yeah, it's it's it's almost twice as long as most of the other songs on the record.

And I will say that this is a fine song except for when you have to listen to two minutes and 17 seconds of it.

So it is actually my least favorite.

So this this whole episode does get points dinged for Miss Langtry's Lament hurt to me.

And then secondly, Jimmy Brown, her fiance has only been missing for three days, so she is slightly insane.

Do I also love that as like an absurd thing?

Because it's just like everything about this episode is just absurd and silly, and I happen to love absurd and silly.

So this did work for me, especially at the end when Jimmy Brown like gets the hat not or the mask knocked off of them and everyone sees it's not no good Jimmy Brown.

And he just says, that's right, darling.

Ah, was the gorilla.

It, it kills me every time.

So yeah, I again, I'm sorry it didn't work for y'all.

It does work for me.

I.

I like this episode, I just think it's the weakest of the 10 episodes.

Does that make sense?

Yeah cuz I I have an opinion on a future episode that I think is the weakest.

Yeah.

I'm spicy.

I'm not even sure I would call this one my weakest of the series, but I it definitely potatoes and molasses was a weak moment for me.

It was just the length.

If that had gone right next to the entirety of the ABC song, I might have lost my mind.

David, if it helps, I don't think that is an uncommon opinion because I know Marshall also hates the potatoes in molasses song.

Well then.

I think potatoes in molasses is silly fun.

Would I want to eat potatoes in molasses?

Oh God no.

That sounds disgusting.

Absolutely, but it is It's silly fun.

I also honestly one of the funniest moments in like the first half of the series to me is Greg goes up to Miss Langtry on the piano.

He's like, Hey, can you play something like this?

And he just like bangs his tiny little baby fits on the piano and she goes, oh, so something like this and starts playing the potatoes in molasses melody, which is of course nothing like what he just banged it's faces.

No, it's so funny.

And his face does a little journey of like thinking about it and be like, well, obviously not, but I could work with this.

And she was like, sure.

And then start singing.

It's it just it kills me.

It's so funny.

And then I, I, I grew up loving the busy world of Richard Scary.

So I think I'm I'm also biased towards towards.

Living such I truly don't know what that is.

We I I'm.

Afraid we have talked about this episode too much.

Wow.

It's a it's a wonderful, wonderful piece of art.

I recommend everyone look into the busy world of Richard Scary though.

Not horror merrily, but I think we could cover it because his name is scary.

So our next episode that we cover is Songs of the Dark Lantern work.

Greg and Beatrice go to a local Tavern to try and ask directions to Adelaide.

Beatrice tries to take the lead but the Tavern keeper doesn't let birds in.

They're bad luck while stuck.

While stuck outside, Beatrice hears someone chopping wood and sitting in the rain at night and goes to investigate.

Inside the Tavern, they assigned Wert the role of the Pilgrim and asked to hear about his adventures, but they have a surprising reaction to his tale of the Woodsman and the Beast, saying the Beast is the one who has a dark Lantern.

They all hear Beatrice cry out in pain, so Wert and Greg go to rescue her.

They discovered Beatrice on the ground with the Woodsman standing over her with an axe.

They get her away from the Woodsman and light one of the creepy Ada Wood trees on fire.

When Beatrice wakes up, she reveals she accidentally knocked herself out by flying into a tree.

It all ends happily though, because they get directions from Fred, the talking horse.

Elsewhere in the woods, it's revealed that the Beast is indeed real, and the woodsman's daughter's soul has been trapped inside the Beast's Lantern.

That's why he has it and he needs the oil from the Edelwood trees, which we also discover were former travellers that got lost in the woods and the Beast transformed to keep the Lantern lit and his daughter's soul alive.

So I think something that we didn't touch on in the summary is that the people who are in the Tavern are all like character archetypes from famous, like like folklore, folk tales, things like that.

Yes.

And everyone is also referred to by their archetype, yes.

And so a lot of the bulk of this episode is spent trying to determine what archetype work fulfills.

And they decide it's the Pilgrim, which I think is where we get the delineation between is it work or Greg's coming of age story.

And it's really more like Greg's coming of age and works is more of like a hero's journey because the way they describe the Pilgrim is as a person going on a hero's journey.

And I think that's neat.

I think that it's actually really fun to play with these different archetypes and to acknowledge them because these are archetypes that were also just are common throughout, you know, tales and, and folk tales and American mythology as well.

And so this episode really works for me.

And it also really works for me because there's another love letter to animation in this.

Yeah, so.

I think you could very easily ascribe a type of animation or artist to each episode of this series, which I think is one of the reasons why people really enjoy it.

One of the the big reference in this one is to the type of animation that we saw like in the 20s and 30s with like Betty Boop and rotoscoping becoming a big deal.

So there's the Highwayman sequence.

You.

Know the Tavern keeper is like a really obvious Betty Boop.

Analog.

Yeah, Yeah, that's very true.

Yeah.

She's totally sounds like it.

She looks like it.

But then we have a sequence with the archetypical character, the Highwayman and I, I don't love the Highwayman song just because it's not my type of music.

But I think creatively and artistically it's great because it is really just a like a rotoscoped performance of a guy doing a reference to a very famous rotoscoped animation.

That was in another like Betty Boop kind of cartoon where Cab Calloway, who was like a famous like scat jazz singer and performer was rotoscoped.

It performed St.

James Infirmary Blues in 1933.

You might have seen it.

It's the one where there's like a ghost who's like doing like a weird sort of jig and he's like revealing bones and not bones and pictures of hell and stuff.

And he's singing like this really creepy, kind of like old scat Blues sort of song.

And like I think we should include like a link to it in the episode.

But it's really interesting and I think that's a nice reference for for Mikhail and his artistic team to to put in here.

Yeah, completely agree.

This was this was my favorite episode of the series.

Like Tyler, I didn't actually care for The Highwaymen song.

The the song itself didn't really work for me, but everything else going on here did work.

I think 2 was as many as you could do and they chose to do both, which was fake out about Beatrice's injury.

Oh, I just flew into a tree and fake out about Greg the horse.

But I I was watching the clock because there was like 10 seconds left and I was like, this fucking show's going to put a third one in and ruin it.

But they did not, which is good.

They just did too.

A a modochrome of self-control for once in your life.

Thank you for expressing it.

And that made this one stand out because it wasn't heavy-handed on on the sort of that's a random jokes.

Everything was set up and then delivered the archetypes as sort of a you're going to have to choose your role.

Your role is the Pilgrim.

And then later Wert loses his faith is fucking delicious.

If this had immediately followed hard times at the Huskinbee, it would have felt like a natural next step.

Because you took some very iconic horror things and then you moved into talking about some other very iconic ways of telling stories, and the iconography would have sung together.

There was just a little break in the middle.

Interesting.

David, you might I I was joking about the Star Trek movie rule at the start, but maybe you're on to something like all the even episodes of the the ones that are going to be more like serious a plot heavy.

Wait till I do the same description for the next one, Tyler.

Oh boy.

Real quick, before we get there, there's a very fun behind the scenes tidbit where in this episode, at one point they decide that word is a young lover instead of the Pilgrim.

And they asked the young lover to sing his love song.

And there's a bit where people are like sing lover sing.

Apparently in the recording booth, Pat McHale and like the Greg voice actor were actually there like throwing marshmallows at Elijah Wood, trying to make him uncomfortable before he sang his love song.

And Pat was like, I don't think this did anything because Elijah Wood is obviously an incredible performer, but I had fun with it, which I just makes me love that scene so much more.

It's so fun.

God I love it behind the scenes.

I'd love a behind the scenes feature.

We need more of those.

Put those back.

Put those back.

You have a whole DVD full Tyler, you just have to wait until there's a crisis for you to access.

I do.

I can see it.

It's right over there.

Wow.

You can't see that because this is an audio medium.

But we believe you.

Yeah, it's in a glass case, literally like says break glass in case of emergency.

There's like a hammer next to it and everything.

Like what an insane setup do you've created for yourself, Tyler?

I got little pumpkin stickers on it.

Wild to use a hammer and not a face painted rock, but you do you, yeah?

Hey, hold on, can you twist the hammer?

You have painted the rock face.

Facts.

The rock fact face on the hammer?

What intention to detail?

I'm just that good.

Well, we must do it.

You can't delay this any longer.

We have to move into the next episode.

Mad Love Wert, Greg, Beatrice and Fred have conned Quincy Endicott, a rich tea merchant that Wert and Greg are his nephews, in order to rob him so they can have enough money to ride the ferry to Adelaide.

Wert doesn't feel great about this until it's revealed that they literally only need 2 pennies.

They split up with Fred and Greg going to hunt a ghost with Endicott to distract him while Wert and Beatrice look for money.

Wert and Beatrice have a heart to heart and she reveals that she used to be human and is trying to get to Adelaide to turn her family back because they were cursed to become Bluebirds with her.

Elsewhere, Fred gets increasingly worried as they search that Endicott is mad and killed the actual owner of the house.

They encounter the ghost, who was a real woman.

Wert has figured out the mystery.

The ghost is actually Endicott's business rival, and their mansions are so large that they actually connect.

Marguerite and Endicott are in love and combine their companies.

They both give pennies to Greg, but he tosses them into a fountain.

I hate that ending.

I hate that he tosses it in there and he just says I got no sense at all.

It's like this, doesn't?

What do you mean?

It really doesn't make sense.

You're right.

Like it just, it drives me nuts.

I however, because I can already tell that David hates this fucking episode.

Hate this episode?

Yeah, look at him.

I hate that Steve is coming out of his ears.

I.

Know, but I actually really like this episode.

You made me listen to 11 minutes of John Cleese.

There will be punishment for this future fucking Brexit racist ass.

I couldn't And Bebe Neuwirth.

You can do better.

Don't marry this man.

I was actually shook when I found out that it was Bebe Neuwirth that's in this.

It's I mean, it sounds do you do you now recognize it like it sounds so like her.

Yeah.

She is not doing a voice.

She's.

Just Lilith.

She's just Lilith with a French accent, yeah.

Incredible.

I actually, I, I like this episode, even though I acknowledge that there are major problems with it.

I, I do enjoy.

So this is before Brexit and before we all realize that John Cleese is a monster.

Sure.

Yeah.

So whenever John Cleese says some joke about like, yes, I, I, I must be going, I, I crack up.

And that has also entered by lexicon.

And I have used that in D&D many, many a time.

Nice as well actually as as Greg calls Quincy Endicott Unki.

I used that in my first DND campaign and everyone freaked the fuck out and thought it was the most disgusting part that's ever been said.

Unki.

Oh my goodness, I.

Know and I was like it's an over the garden wall reference you guys, but I I do I think there's some good jokes in here.

I do find that the ending makes this a shaggy dog story, which I fucking hate because then, as I'm sure David could attest, then it feels just like a waste of time.

Yes, and having a good time is never a waste of time, but unfortunately I was kind of bummed out from the very beginning because I was like, what the fuck are we doing here?

How did we get here?

It does make sense at the end when you realize this is their grand journey that they went on or a death dream.

Whichever way you choose to process the ending.

If it's a death dream, this is just a new neuron firing in a different way.

If it's part of a grand journey, we did kind of miss somebody saying like I bet we could steal money from Endicott.

It just seemed it was a little too in media race for me and that made it hard to buy into.

It's that thing what we needed more time for the pacing, Yeah.

Yeah, cuz we do.

It truly is in media res because we do just jump straight in straight in having dinner and then it's just exposition, exposition, exposition.

Why are we here?

What are we doing here?

Why is Fred the horse here?

Oh, we need money.

Oh, we only need 2 cents Like it's and so it's many things like that happening, a lot of stuff that is poorly paced because of the short runtime.

I wish we had spent some more time setting this up and starting off by saying like, you know, Beatrice just drops like OK, before we get to Adelaide's, we need to pennies and then has to explain before they actually get there.

Even if they were just like Greg pulls a shrub aside and is just like, oh, do you think we can get money from someone who lives with that giant mysterious mansion over the Herald?

That would have been great.

Perfect, that would have been great.

But I otherwise I, I think there's some good gags in here.

Yeah, as I said, like Elijah Wood clock in the this is more of a French rococo style as opposed to Endicott's Georgian sensibilities.

Always kills me.

Oh my God, he's so good and.

Then back in the day when I listened to Arcade Fire cursed me their name.

I always thought about the song Rococo whenever he said that.

Yeah, I just I agree with you.

I think that there would it be nice if there was a little bit more set up for how we got here.

But I really do enjoy the journey in this episode because I do think some of my favorite bits happen here, including like work going we didn't steal Fred.

He's a talking horse.

He could do what he wants.

Like Pan over to Fred the horse being like I want to steal and like a little gasp, but that work makes and like his face.

This is one of my favorite jokes of the whole series.

I think that's so funny.

Like, and then the Peacock jumping into the Arboretum too, and.

It's so funny it just screaming Greg calling them like weird chickens heart to heart with like work and and Beatrice like we haven't really gotten into it, but work, Beatrice specifically have like a really combative relationship in the first couple episodes.

And like this is the part where they start to like come together, which is going to be important like very soon.

And I just think that there's a lot of really good stuff here for all that.

It is in fact a story that is a circle and doesn't really accomplish anything because work throws away the money in the end.

Yeah, this is a very Adventure Timey episode, which I think might also be another reason why, David, this did not work for you, because it does that thing that Pendleton Ward did so often in Adventure Time where it was like silly, absurd, stupid humor.

And then also, hey, let's have actually like a serious kind of heart to heart character development moment.

And now it's back to silly, stupid random.

That kind of humor.

Yeah.

Because I I really do love that exchange that Wert and Beatrice have when they're stuck in the wardrobe.

And then they find like the little secret passageway and they're.

And we kind of learn some more about word and we get some of those hints about them actually being not from the unknown and instead something closer to modern times.

Yeah.

And we also get our first, like, info that Wert is a musician.

And then he plays like the.

Is it the open clarinet?

The clarinet which will come in handy in the in the following.

Episode yeah like the the reveal where like Beatrice was her heart of the line is like I used to be human my family is cursed and Wert his secret is oh I like this girl these two pieces of information are exactly the same to him is so funny yeah.

Yeah.

And and I do think, yeah, go ahead, David.

I just hated that.

I I hated it so, so very much because not like I get it, he's a 14 year old boy that that's fine.

But like that is such A to have a female character, which there aren't a lot of in this in this show, really dump her guts out and then have sort of our one of our two insert characters be like, I like a girl.

I just, I mean, I was so mad.

My notes were just like rage writing at this point of time because it's it's such a disservice to a character that's already got one wing behind her back because she has to be Eve to suffer all of sin that has ever been been cultivated.

And then for the person who's supposed to be developing a relationship with her to bring the most surface level thing to the table, that it hurt, it hurt me and it made it.

Then I was like, well, there wasn't even good character development this episode.

So it wasn't even that Pendleton Ward thing where there was something fun in between.

I just, I, I just episode 5 can't do it.

Skip it.

What a really good point.

I hadn't really considered it under that frame narrative before, but I do think that is going to be a thing that I ponder going forward.

I, I really enjoy this conversation though, and I really hope the audience like you all are enjoying it too.

Because I think at the end of the day, like we are all very passionate about this show, either positively or negatively.

And I think that is something that we want to communicate to that and just share our thoughts and share our feelings.

And I, I love that we get to have this conversation cuz David, I think you're the only person I've ever met who is critical of the show.

And so this is extremely refreshing.

Not a lot of Reddit threads of people being critical of the show.

A lot of Reddit threads of people saying that's a rock fact.

And that's a rock fact.

Yep.

Yep.

Oh my God, Incredible, incredible work.

Everybody All right, next episode on the frog ferry, Work and Greg are in high spirits, but Beatrice isn't a strangely bad mood because they snuck onto the ferry because of course Greg threw away their 2 pennies.

They do have to avoid the frog police, a cab, even frog cops.

Beatrice wants them to turn themselves in, but when the unnamed frog that they've been like having around this whole time start to sing a beautiful song which is accompanied by Wert on the bassoon, they are allowed to stay.

When the boat arrives, Beatrice urges them to spend the night with the frogs instead of arriving at Adelaide's too late, but she flies ahead without them.

Wert wakes up anyway and they follow her to Adelaide's and discover that Beatrice had made a deal to bring her children that she could enslave in return for scissors that could turn her and her family human.

Wert and Greg are discovered and they all fight with Beatrice eventually killing Adelaide, but Wert doesn't forgive her for this and they leave her behind.

This was fire.

I loved everything that happened here.

I loved the Frog Band.

It was a little silly, but I had a lot of fun with it.

Music was great.

The vibrancy of the art was incredible.

Absolutely I.

Loved getting to Adelaide's Let's just look beyond Beatrice's like betrayal turned like.

Hero onus.

Yeah, because I guess she, we, we, I called out like the, the Adelaide wants them because she wants these child servants, slaves or whatever.

Beatrice doesn't know that.

She's like, yeah, I thought you just wanted some yard work done.

So, like, it is not.

She wasn't intending that.

And she was even trying to find some way to stop it.

But like, work because of his passionate romantic nature.

Just so it was like cuts, ties and and dips.

But it's, it's a great cliffhanger of an episode because I do care about Beatrice being part of this little adventuring party.

And now she's gone right when our Bard revealed himself in the face of the frog.

We, we, we thought we were getting a full party.

And now, now we, we have to dip with Beatrice.

I, I really liked Lullaby and Frogland.

I thought this was a great episode.

That's great.

I actually going into this thought you would not like it, David.

I I thought that perhaps that there were nothing really like the silliness of the frog band was too much.

There's like and like we haven't talked about this either, but there is a long running gag where this unnamed frog is unnamed because they keep cycling through different potential names for this frog.

And in this episode it's George Washington.

And then we find out George Washington the frog could seen perfectly beautifully.

He's a narrator.

Over the Garden Wall is my favorite song from Over the Garden Wall.

I know all the words.

I love singing the song just like while I'm like doing stuff throughout the day in the autumn, like I think and like the lyrics of it too are are beautiful and work for the setting as well because it's a it's a song about frogs.

Really wonderful episode.

This is another one of my favourites and I think that ending works.

I think it ends up too fast.

Agreed.

This is one of the episodes that I have a major problem with pacing on.

Yes, everything wraps up far too neatly in like the last two minutes and I don't think that was a smart idea.

I think we should have spent far more time merrily wrote like exactly what happens without leaving anything out from from like the point that they get to Adelaide.

Like, like literally what she wrote or what is exactly what happened?

Yeah.

So I wish we had gotten to spend some more time with this ending.

I think the pacing is kind of fucked.

Yeah, it's like 2 sentences in in an 11 minute episode.

We need more time.

I actually am feeling more in David's seat here because I I find that it doesn't work and I think we're going to learn something about what work does when he leaves that I think still kind of pisses me off when I think about it, even though I understand that he's a 14 year old boy and he's dumb.

But I, I feel so bad for for Beatrice and I think she is still our eve when this happens because even though she did try and turn it into a heroic moment, she is still punished because she is excluded from the party.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and so I think, David, I think your your criticism is still very valid here about that.

Yeah.

Having said that, though, this is still like one of my favorite episodes.

It's so beautiful.

Yes.

And the gags work really well.

I love the whole thing about like the baby tadpoles and then like, they fall onto the floor, which, and then one of the cops, like, slips and falls on a tadpole.

And that's just so funny to think through, like all the way because it's like he just slipped and fell on a baby.

Like, it, it I think it's I think it's a great gag.

I think there's a lot of silliness that happens on the on the ferry.

And so this this episode still works for me, even though I do not care for the ending.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It needed at least like 5 more minutes.

Give us 5 more minutes at least.

Come on, Tartu Network.

Yeah, but you know what, Adelaide?

You were in good company with Miss Western, RA.

A gust of air blew you right away, as we knew it would for her back in our discussion of Dracula.

Yeah, I do think that that's really like a fun way for her to have been deceased.

Like the night air, which is most people think is refreshing, just killed her dead.

I thought that was great.

So our next episode is the ringing of the bell.

Wert and Greg find a house in the woods and hide there from the woodsman, who they still think is the beast inside.

They meet Lorna who urges them to hide from Auntie Whispers.

Auntie Whispers could smell the brothers and begs them to come out before they're devoured alive.

Convinced she's instead just smelling the black turtles, Auntie Whisper rings her rings her magic bell to command Lorna to clean the floors until they shine, and then goes upstairs to bed.

After Whispers falls asleep, Wert hatches a plan for Lorna to escape.

He'll help her with the cleaning so she can finish early before Whispers wakes up and takes her to another task.

As they finish, Greg chases the frog upstairs and wakes up Auntie Whispers.

She warns the brothers to get away from Lorna before they're eaten up, but they can't find the bell to command Lorna.

They make a break for it, and as soon as they have locked the door between them, Lorna starts to change.

She's possessed by an evil spirit, which is why she follows the Bell's commands.

Luckily, the frogs swallow the bells, so Wert orders the evil spirit to leave and never come back.

Wert might have saved the day, but he's beginning to give up hope that they'll ever get back home.

The beast sees this and starts to celebrate.

The woodsman thinks there has to be another way to keep the Lantern lit, but the beast assures him that there isn't.

David thinking such an interesting face here.

Agreed.

Let me start off with something positive.

Whoa, please yes, start.

Hi.

So I like that we are now beginning to have a Wert is starting to get possessed by his own gloom and on we and and feelings of, you know, futility.

Greg is now having to step up and I think that is a sign of maturity on his part.

There's a quick little line that gets spoken over by word as part of the gag where they're trying to look for shelter and Greg says, as long as we don't go to that creepy old and then word says, let's go to that house.

And it's like the first time I think Greg has ever actually said something like opinionated that wasn't just, like, a silly statement.

And I think that is a neat but important moment for him.

I think it's also key that he is the one to kind of figure out like, that the bell is connected to everything and then work gets, like, the final shot.

Yeah.

So to speak.

Yeah, and then of course the Lorna demon scare would have scared the shit out of me as a child.

Sure, this was a this is.

I mean, there were a lot of well designed set pieces in this one, the Lorna demon among them.

Even the barrel full of black turtles, which sort of the red herring of this entire 10 episode series is never.

Yeah, nobody ever explains the evil black turtles.

Don't worry about it.

Yeah, and I think Tim Curry is fun as anti whispers.

I, I mean, I am having a good time with that, but this entire episode just feels like we need work to be a little more depressed and otherwise we're just treading water to get there.

And this was the most like nothing matters of, of the sort of odd numbered episodes.

I I just did not care for this at all.

That's such a bummer, I really like this episode.

I do too.

And of course we haven't mentioned it, but Auntie Whispers is voiced by Tim Curry.

Yeah, who does?

I think like a pretty serviceable job in in this role he is much like John Cleese, or not John Cleese, but who?

Who was it that we just mentioned?

Christopher Lloyd, Yeah.

Christopher Lloyd, thank you.

The Nyquil Sweats are starting to come back.

Funny.

So my brain is like.

Brain fever No.

The thing that killed Misses Westerner?

No, that was a breeze.

Never mind.

I also do love the little gag at the end that Auntie Whispers is the sister of the Adelaide of the forest and she warns them like beware my sister Adelaide, she's actually really bad after they've already killed her.

I think that's fun irony.

What did you guys think of this song in the middle here?

Oh.

I think it's fun, it's cute.

Yeah.

David hates this episode.

The problem is I just felt like we at this point in time, I was like, you just want there to be a song in every, every time.

And I just didn't feel like this one belonged here.

Like even though I didn't like The Highwaymen song, it belonged there.

The frog song belonged there and I liked it.

The potatoes and molasses, whatever, it did belong.

That's what I will say.

I didn't like it, but it did belong.

And here this was a song that I felt like was there because I made a bit to have a song every time and I've got to commit to my bit and it's just better Writing would have made it feel like it belonged and it just wasn't there for me.

Apparently.

You said you really liked this one.

Was there anything in particular that made you like it would did?

Did you like words transformation?

Did you just like the design?

Are you are you mad for turtles or what?

No, well, I do like the little turtles.

I do think Greg being like, we're here to burgle your turds.

It's just that's that's a fun sentence.

And I like then Lorna calling the kids my little turtles.

I think that I don't know, I like the turtle stuff, but mostly, you know, I just like the idea of like whispers and Lorna and like the reveal that it was Lorna who was bad the whole time.

I don't it works for me.

I don't think it's I just thought it was fun and I do like the bell, like the ringing of the bell commanding the spirit inside the girl is like so classic fairy tale that I enjoyed it.

Like the whole thing just reads like a story that I've heard before in a fun way while still being just new enough.

I also thought that the bell looked like a classic grave and like craving, like you would see that sort of design on a an old tombstone, which I thought really worked for like the reveal as well as the way the world worked.

I listen.

I don't have a good explanation, I just like it.

No, I like I I am with you on that, Mary Lee.

I I still like this episode.

I don't think it's one of the strongest episodes, but I still really like it.

I think it's very charming and I think it's actually like one of one of, if not the scariest episode because of Lorna demon.

And then of course, the bell is really important, important to the ending.

Yeah, too.

And the fact that gives us our little like maybe it was real after all, kind of kind of thing, which I think is, is fun and charming.

I, I think one of the reasons why I I love the show is that I do find so many of these little moments in here charming and archetypical because this does feel like such like a show that wears its references on its on its sleeve.

Yeah, that's 100% true.

Yeah, you know, I just David said that it feels like this episode is treading water and I I do think that that maybe is a little bit true because what happened in last episode with Adelaide is kind of like almost like the the mid season climax, right.

And so here we are just trying to keep at the same level.

We're establishing stuff for where we're going to go next.

Yeah.

So, like, if you like the vibe and you're here for the good time, then this is a good episode.

But if you're already on shaky ground, I I understand why you don't fuck with it.

Yeah, well.

I don't particularly affect on the next one either, but here we go.

This is this is where we buck my even odd situation.

By the way, Tyler, just in case you maybe were curious.

No, no, no, this is the one I was complaining.

Oh good, well that makes me feel better.

In the next episode, Babes in the Wood Babes in the Woods Wert and Greg hear the beast singing as they continue to search for home, but Wert has completely given up and blames Greg for getting them lost in the 1st place.

Wert decides to try to go to sleep and Greg wants to dream up a good way to get home, so he wishes on a star before falling asleep.

Stars hear him, so as soon as he falls asleep, he goes up to Cloud City and meets Lando Cal resident the residents there.

Greg accidentally releases the North Wind, who immediately starts causing trouble and in the woods, a cold wind starts blowing.

In Cloud City.

Greg defeats the North Wind and the Queen of the Clouds descends and offers him a wish in return.

Greg, of course wishes for them to get home, but she tells him she can't.

Wert has been claimed by the Beast already and shows him wrapped in the Edelwood.

Edelwood, what are we staying here?

I tell him this is so loud.

Edelwood branches.

Greg wishes for something and whispers it in the Queen's ear so that we do not hear it.

Greg apologizes to Wert for getting them so lost and being a bad leader.

He asks Wert to take care of their frog before he walks off into the woods with the Beast, where it wakes up to Greg gone and panics.

He tries to follow them, but the frozen river ice breaks under his feet.

Beatrice and a friendly fish get him out of the water, but he can't tell them where Greg is.

So I know you guys both hate this episode.

I I do not hate any OK?

I do not hate any particular episode of this show.

Let me be clear, I love this show.

I don't like this episode.

So I feel like the animation love letter to it is beautiful.

It doesn't work for me.

It feels like it uses up too much time just kind of having fun with itself.

So and just kind of trying to be one of those like Steamboat Willy kind of shorts from the early 20th century because that's what this is.

It's a throwback to those sort of like 20th 1920s animations that were just kind of like silly and just things sort of happen because it's fun to animate that.

David, I noticed that you kind of were like OK about the North Wind guy and that just the North Wind's presence just feels like it's there because it, it fits that style of animation from the time.

Like, of course we have to have like a, there's got to be a villain and he's got to be something silly and thematic with the setting.

And then we have like a little fight with Greg and the North wind and you know, it's it.

They even do that thing where they go into a house, they fight in the walls and the the roof are moving up and down and then someone gets knocked out and then pulled back in after rolling their sleeve up.

I think that's really fun.

And I like the gags with the like the community, like the different committees that are all welcoming Greg at the start, and Greg is starting to get tired of them by the end.

And I think those moments work.

I don't think the entire sequence works for me though to communicate the story that it's trying to tell.

OK, Marilee, you do like this.

So I do agree that I think this is maybe one of the weaker episodes of the show and I think that Tyler had a really great point when he he talks about how self indulgent it is because a lot of the episode is them playing in a sandbox that they have created for themselves.

However, I personally think that the release of the north wind calling in winter in the unknown is really smart and I like that a lot.

Because as soon.

As the yeah, as soon as the north wind starts blowing, this is when it starts to snow.

This is when like there's there's a serious wind in the unknown for every episode after this, even though in Cloud City they've already like bottled the wind, but like it's already been released out into the world and we're in like serious winter now.

I think that's really fun and smart.

And then like the end of the episode, to me packs a big punch because just like not knowing what your sibling is like the way that Greg says goodbye to work, like a lot of alarm bells for me as an older sibling.

And like, I just, is it a a good episode?

That's a question.

I like it though.

I like it for Greg cuz we haven't really had an opportunity to just focus on Greg.

It's always been either work and Greg or just work.

And so I like that we get this time.

And it also demonstrates that Greg is maturing.

And I think this is kind of like his coming of age moment when he makes the choice to like, OK, I'm going to sacrifice myself for my brother.

And that shows tremendous maturity that I don't think the Greg that we saw at the beginning of this series would have made that choice.

Like, I don't think that would have even entered into his brain.

Yeah.

And so I think that is is a very neat character progression for his character.

Absolutely.

I think that there's a really fun through line if you pay attention to it.

Like at the very beginning of last episode, like, Work tells Greg that you could do anything, like, you're in charge of yourself now.

And like, his first reaction when, like, the tree falls down right there is like, oh, no, my enormous power.

And then it's very funny in this episode, Work makes Greg in charge of them both.

And so he's like, oh, this is my responsibility now.

If I'm the one in charge, I will try and, like, do things that are best for both of us.

And I think that it is an enormous amount of maturity for such a small child and the way that he wields it, like totally appropriate for Greg's age group.

I just, I don't know, I like Greg a lot.

I think that this is, you're right, a really good Greg alone episode.

And but it is very silly and I understand why you guys don't like it.

Yeah, I think I think the problem is that so much scaffolding gets it's put into place to do some really good character development.

And then we end up doing like a little Adventure Time episode in Cloud City where Greg may as well be Fin the human like it it it just it kind of loses the plot because I really felt like maybe at the again, we're talking 11 minute episodes.

So what am I talking about here?

The first 90 seconds we're we're setting.

We're setting worked up to be Kirk and God's night of reluctance or night of resignation where he is the loss of faith, and we're setting Greg up to be the knight of faith who is going to uphold and keep that.

And these are things that play against each other.

It is this concept that in Western philosophy has talked about like this, but in Eastern philosophy has talked about in like Ying and Yang.

There's a really cool ability to play around here that could have carried the next two episodes to like this really, really fun, amazing thing.

But in instead we we go goofy, which is there's nothing wrong with going goofy, but then why get out this hardcore big philosophical stuff and then kind of ignore it?

It it does feel like we set the kids table with caviar and nobody wanted to eat that.

I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on on the next thing, because I'm I'm not.

I totally buy your Kierkegaard analogy here.

I think that is actually very, very to describe.

I'm kind of curious to see where you think it falls apart because I think that actually carries through up until the resolution in in the unknown.

Yeah, I mean, spoiler alert, my biggest fall apart was that there actually is a Gray.

Well, I can't help you there, David.

All right, so let's let's talk about the next episode.

We've kind of been teasing this like the whole episode of our show here, but like 9 is kind of a big deal because this is where we get the rug pull reveal.

So in a bedroom in a modern era where it struggles with a choice before grabbing a tape that says for Sarah, putting together a costume of like a Civil War era like re enactor cloak and a Santa hat with like this the white trim cut off, heading to a football game and then looking longingly at a dancing bee mascot.

Greg finds him and asks if they can finally go frog hunting, but Wert refuses.

They run into some high school friends and Greg tells them that Wert's tape is for Sarah.

The girls offer to give it to Sarah for work, but they warn him that if he has a crush on her, he better act fast because Jason Funderburger is planning on asking her out tonight.

Dejected, Wert and Greg start to go home before work, remembers the tape.

Sarah, Jason and a bunch of their friends are drinking age appropriate drinks in the cemetery and definitely not doing anything illegal, which is such a funny standards of practice joke.

As they approach the Group, A cop car pulls up and all of the kids scatter.

A cap.

Wert and Greg climb up the graveyard wall to try and escape, but while they're up there, Wert sees Sarah discover the tape with Jason, who wants to listen to it with her.

Wert and Greg jump down the other side of the wall and Wert yells at Greg about him and his father always ruining his life.

But Craig doesn't really notice that he's found the frog.

Wert tells him to name it himself when a train comes around the corner towards them.

It turns out they are standing on train tracks.

They jump out of the way and they roll down a hill into a lake, sinking towards the bottom.

Wert wakes up in a tree of Bluebirds.

It's Beatrice's family and Wert heads out into the storm to try and find his brother.

A lot of stuff in this one.

A lot of stuff.

I like that if you look closely in works room there's a lot of fun cultural references in there.

There's a tape on his desk for a band called 3 Non Blondes instead of Four Non Blondes, which I think is so fun.

There's really good just like overall design of the setting, like the the red shag floor, the wooden panel walls, the mirror that is like fastened to one of those walls with like a billion little brackets.

It it feels very like classic 80s, early 90s to me and I really love that.

Yeah.

And then, you know, we we get to meet Greg and see what Greg was doing and calling old, old lady Daniels and.

Yes, Sir, young man.

Yeah, yes, Sir, young man.

Like it's just I I like that we are getting into this world.

I think it's and and David, you, you pointed out the art style.

Fantastic.

It really sticks out here because of how vibrant the colors feel.

It feels like both stepping into a memory and and like watching something that I know from personal experience.

Like I can like the the ground looks wet as though there were a recent rain.

The autumn leaves are are falling, but they don't look as quite as like charismatic or charming as in the unknown.

It's it's good stuff.

I I like the designs in this episode.

Yeah.

And smart to have it be winter in the unknown so that we can not have any confusion that this is a different reality for for Greg and Wert.

Very keenly done.

Beautiful.

I just think some more writing and story missteps here because this anytime we're not spending with the brothers is time that we should be spending with the brothers to build them up so that I care about what happens to the brothers in the next episode.

And unfortunately we do a little bit of of time wasting with that.

Some of them are, are legitimately good jokes and I got some laughs out of this, but I, I just feel like with 11 minutes to play with, this has to be about Wert's relationship with his brother.

This has to be about Greg's relationship as a as a young man who doesn't he hasn't done anything to earn Wert's ire that this is about Greg's father.

This isn't about Greg.

There's so much that is ready to go there and we don't do it and it's a little bit painful that we don't get to do it.

I'm going to push back on that a little bit.

Do it.

I do.

I do think that Greg, I do, I think that the brotherly relationship is not as strong because we have to have work focusing also on his crush on Sarah because that is a major motivating factor in his character.

But I think Greg's, like, relationship with work is visible, not just like when those two are talking, but also when Greg is talking to the people around work because we learn more about, like, how people see work because work feels like he's a loser that no one likes.

But then people are like, oh, hey, it's work.

Yeah, Greg, like, keeps pointing stuff like that out to work, Like, oh, you know, you should join the band because then you could spend more time with Sarah.

And it's just Greg genuinely trying to make this connection with his older half brother.

And the fact that work just ignores it, I think does inform us about the brotherly relationship because we are now going from work doesn't give a shit about Greg and yells at Greg before they fall into the lake from the train to now where is spending all of his time and all of his will to save Greg once we return to the unknown.

Yeah.

And I think to to compare those two things, I think demonstrates this is what the relationship of brothers was in the past and this is how it is now going to be changed and is going to be changed forever going forward.

Yeah, like, there's a line, like right at the end.

Beatrice's mom is like, don't go out there.

You're no use to your brother dead because she's trying to like, hey, you're going out into a Blizzard.

It's like, pretty serious.

But he looks right at her, dead in the eye, Heisen says.

I was never any good to him alive, either.

I'm like, what?

A mic drop.

So, yeah, but yeah, so I, I like this episode.

I think that there are definite strengths and weaknesses of it, but I think overall, for me, it still works.

Which leads us to The Unknown, our final episode of Over the Garden Wall.

So it starts off with Beatrice sees Greg and the Beast but can't get to him with the strong winds of the storm and is blown away.

Melanie Linsky voice in that sequence, in that moment, by the way, terrific top ten.

Yeah, love hearing her scream in the wind.

The Beast tries to get Greg to give up by assigning him impossible tasks.

The Greg's childlike logic gives him solutions like the sun setting itself into a cup.

Him sitting in the snow for hours pleases the Beast anyway.

Beatrice is blown into work and she leads him to Greg.

At the old mill, the woodsman does everything he can to get oil into the Lantern.

He hears the Beast standing in the woods and finds Greg wrapped in Edelwood branches.

Horrified, he tries to free Greg, but the Beast tries to steal back the Lantern and they fight.

Wert and Beatrice find the Lantern and Greg.

Wert apologizes for everything and tells him that they have to get the frog, Jason Funderburger home, right?

Greg agrees that's the perfect frog name before passing out.

Wert and Beatrice try to free him, but can't get him out of the tree.

When the Beast returns and offers to put Greg's soul into the Lantern if Wert would like to be the new Lantern bearer, Wert agrees before he realizes that's done.

He's not going to wander around forever because the Beast is obsessed with keeping the Lantern lit.

It's almost like the beast's soul is in the light.

Horrified, the Woodsman realizes that he's right.

Wait, that's dumb.

And just suddenly I know the answer.

It kind of sucks This this could have this this could have been 2 episodes and and merrily was right to stop the notes here because this is a a a great place to sit and talk.

But this could have used more space to breathe.

We could have seen a little bit more of this.

Instead, it just work just knows the answer and that it kind of blows.

Honestly, it kind of takes a lot of the wind out of this victory against the Beast I.

AM 100 and 10% with you on that David I I this is the problem with the pacing of the show for me.

So as beautiful as I think the show is and I think sometimes it gets to know in its own way and we're saying wait, that's dumb is a very Pendleton Ward sort of moment yes, because Adventure Time is far more absurd than over the garden wall.

And so if Finn were to say something like that, I would believe it, but because that's true to the universe that they have created.

But here I really, really, really, really, really hate that work just goes, wait, that's done.

Even though I think it's not wrong, it does feel too much of an easy out writing wise, and it feels more of a concession to the time limit as opposed to what is true to the narrative.

OK, so I I wish work had maybe had like more of an exchange or if Beatrice had also spoken up here and said something about like, hey, it's almost like your soul is in the Lantern.

Like if she were the one to make that realization, I think that would have worked really well because it also would be kind of like our found family because you know, it it ends up going from just being like Wert and Greg to now it's Wert, Greg, Beatrice in the woodsman.

Yes, and and unfortunately that does not exactly work.

Everyone is does is still kind of like in their own slots and Beatrice unfortunately kind of disappears a little bit in that exchange between work and the beast, and I feel like that's not the best creative choice that could have been made.

Yeah, listen, I'm not gonna to disagree with you guys here.

I think that those are all valid points.

I think wait, that's dumb is funny.

And I do think that the show has proven that work is like good at putting together puzzles.

Like he figured out what was going on in the Mad love episode just by looking at architecture styles.

So I do think it's not like wildly out of character for him to just put together the pieces on like on the fly, especially because this is something that had been like mentioned in the Lantern episode and like he had a lot of pieces that he's putting together here.

But I'm not going to argue and say that this is good writing because you're you're right.

Just because I think just because it works for me doesn't mean that it works.

It just means that I will go on to lengths to to appreciate things.

And that is something that we all know about me.

Yeah, and I just feel like to pivot to the joke, even though the I mean, I laughed at the joke too merrily.

But to pivot to a joke when we're talking about whether or not you would sacrifice yourself for a brother that you just realized is important to you through this combination of a flashback and this struggle through the Blizzard and that he had already sacrificed him for you.

I mean, this is like Supernatural season 4 shit going on here of people trading their souls for each other and, and, and to just be like, the premise of trading souls is so stupid.

We should just not do that.

I've come up with another way.

Maybe it is in fact the levity that is the biggest problem to me.

And then if it had been played a little bit more straight, like, hey, wait a second, might have been better.

But we get there and whatever.

I just, I, I think maybe there were better paths to get there.

And frankly, it would come from 11 more minutes of rent.

Yeah, and I I'm totally with you both or I'm I'm totally with you on that, David.

And merely like I I'm also with you as well because I think it does it still works and I think it's true to work's character.

And I love also that you did clock that he is good at figuring these things out because that's just kind of like who he is.

He's very like, internalized and introspective.

And so someone that is that introspective person would probably be able to crack like, wait, there's something going on here.

Yeah.

I just feel like this is not a moment for humor.

No, this is a moment for for something more subtle that I know the show is capable of.

And so when it does this, it just kind of feels like an easy way out that I know the show could have done a better job of executing.

And unfortunately, it just doesn't for me.

And it feels like we have to wrap this up neatly because we have to make sure that this is kept to the exact runtime because we need to sell commercials for Hot Wheels.

Right.

Yeah, I wish this was a double episode.

You guys are 100% right.

This should have been longer.

Like even like all of the episodes before this have been like 1 section section talking point and like even spacing this out to give us more conversation time.

Like the the fact of the matter is that there should there's too much meat on in this 11 minute bone and we needed more time to explore and breathe with that, right?

Totally.

The second-half of the episode, the beast threatens Wert, but he calls his bluff and threatens to blow out the Lantern and the beast blinks first.

Wert gives the Lantern to the woodsman and goes to free his brother.

Wert asked Beatrice to come with them and offers her the magic scissors that can change her family back when she refuses, which he's had since.

Adelaide Woodsman blows out the Lantern as Wert and Beatrice say goodbye.

In the real world, Wert rescues Greg and Jason Funderburger the frog, who by the way, can swim, and they all go to the hospital.

When Wert wakes up, Sarah and all of the high school kids are there not voiced, with Greg entertaining the group with stories from the unknown human.

Jason Funderburger is confused about the frog, which is still shown to have the magic bell in his tummy.

Sarah asks Wert about the tape, saying she doesn't have a tape player, and Wert invites her over to listen to it together.

The frog narrator, who was Jason Funderburger all along, sings the title song and shows the fates of various people in the unknown.

The Woodsman reuniting with his daughter Jimmy and Miss Langtry going to the circus together.

Lorna and Auntie Whispers are still together.

Beatrice and her human family are all together and the story comes to a close.

OK, I am a mixed emotions with this ending.

First of all, I I think on the whole I love it.

I I as much as I have some issues with pacing and how neatly things wrap up, which is even referenced in the narration from Jason Funderburger frog.

So that's how things ended and everyone's happy, you know, like that sort of thing.

I which I don't love.

I still think that the ending works overall, but things I do still feel a little too neat and I think just saying things that uniquely does not really like kind of let you off the hook from demonstrating that.

I think we have such wonderful views of the different characters and we see how their lives have been improved by Wart and Greg, which does add some more like substance for me.

When we go through episodes that are like, what's the point here?

You know, we see that the point was that their lives have been made better by the coming of these brothers.

I just wish that we had more breathing room.

If we had just expanded that stuff out, I would have loved it far more.

Yeah, just the fact that the very last line of the series is Jason Funderburger saying the happiest lies of all may be implying that this isn't true.

Does that change your opinion on how neat it ends up at all or no?

I think it I think it's a fun little wink at the camera to make you think that exact question.

OK.

I think it also is it's interesting to call the story lies because technically all fiction is just a lie.

Like none of it is true.

So the story that we just watched this didn't happen.

It's quote a lie.

But it's lovely, It's happy and.

Isn't that what matters by the end is how you feel about it?

And I think that is kind of the final week in period for over the garden wall.

Period.

Got it.

What did you think, David?

My bummer on this is that we're spending time with the wrong people.

We should be having a little bit more Greg and work together and the other teens being there is it creates a way for Greg to be distracted.

So it gets to be Greg's story, which is actually really fun for Greg.

But I need them as brothers to reconcile that their their shit that they went through together, whether it was in their minds or or it was something they literally experienced.

Maybe per the magic bell, like get Funderburger out of here.

I mean, yeah, we got some good jokes at his expense, but like, get this guy out of here.

And, and I don't, I don't care what happened with Lorna and Auntie Whispers.

I care about what happened with Greg and Wert.

And so to spend even 3 seconds on them is 3 seconds that I could have given to these brothers.

And that's where I needed the story to be.

And for Wert's ultimate outcome to be that he asked Sarah to come over and listen to the tape fucking sucks.

I, I just despise it.

I, I it's not just that it's heterosexual, which I do hate on spec, but it is.

That's not the lesson you should have learned here.

And Frozen is doing this around the same time that it is the love for a sibling and not the love for a man that you need to be caring about right now.

And it sucks that that didn't make its way to Cartoon Network.

Yeah, I got to say, for as funny as like the teens in like talking with Greg is, to be clear, it is funny.

I do kind of hate that we don't get their mom and dad in this moment.

Like, I don't know why all of these random high schoolers are in the hospital room without the mom and dad.

I think that getting like closing the loop between work, Greg and the mom and dad I think would have been a more powerful moment for the show to end on.

But then that would mean designing new character models and hiring other voice actors.

So we simply can't have that.

Yeah, if we had even just gotten like a little look between Wert and Greg just kind of showing like, hey, we made it like a like the end of Fury Rd.

you know, we we get that final look and I wish we had gotten something similar to that here because I do agree with you, David.

I think it does kind of suck that and, and I've always thought about this.

Every time I watched it, it was like, why don't we just have like one more line of dialogue between the brothers in the scene?

I mean, there is a little bit of a wink towards that when they're both talking about Jason Thunderburger the frog.

And I do think we didn't really mention it, but I do think the fact that Work finally gives the frog a name, which is what Craig wanted all along so that their frog can have a name that Work picked is kind of important because again, Greg has always loved his brother.

And I think that that's that's a sweet like through line.

So like them talking about Jason Funderburger and both agreeing that, yes, Jason Funderburger, the frog obviously kind of works is that.

But I see why you would be disappointed that we don't get more.

So how do we feel about Over the Garden Wall in terms of horror or queerness?

After our conversation, do we have any other final thoughts for this episode?

I personally for me, I still find it very creepy.

It is not queer.

Yeah, that's fair.

That's fair.

I respect that.

Again, I, I if you really dig, you can find Nuggets of queerness in it.

But boy, this was a 2014 like Cartoon Network show.

Yeah, which is this was not a priority for them for sure.

And you can tell.

Yeah, I mean the horror part of this, I think, I think children deserve competently written horror and I think we're over the garden wall Falls apart is the competent writing.

I think the designs perfect.

I I would change nothing.

We didn't even talk about it.

But at one point in time, the Lantern goes over the beast, and it is a horrific half second and it is perfect and beautiful and storyboarded incredibly.

But children deserve competent writing in addition to competent visuals, and Over the Garden Wall lacked that.

Yeah.

It's interesting, David, because yesterday when I was watching the show, I was thinking to myself, like, I think the show won an Emmy.

It did, but did it win a Peabody?

It won because I.

Could have sworn it won a Peabody.

It won an Eisner.

It won an Eisner.

Better.

I'm not better than a Peabody.

Different than a Peabody, Yeah.

But I could have sworn it was and I think like one of the things that I had an issue with on Cartoon Network because I actually was not super into Cartoon Network suite of shows during this time period.

Over the Garden Wall is kind of an exception.

I watched Steven Universe because everyone was watching Steven Universe and I did enjoy it.

But I also am familiar with the travails that Rebecca Sugar had to go through to make such a wonderful show.

And so I, I, I want the show.

I was even thinking about this yesterday, too.

Like, what would I do to make the show something that totally I find fulfilling?

And it would be just to make it longer.

Yeah.

I, I want, I want more dialogue between the brothers.

I want more symbolism.

Perhaps I because I think more Beatrice, you have more Beatrice, more, more opportunities to spend time with Beatrice.

And maybe the whole, like a whole episode dedicated to her would have been nice.

I know Mikhail talked about that he and Cartoon Network decided that a miniseries would better get across the themes that he wanted to communicate as opposed to a full 13 episode TV series or whatever or 22 episode TV series.

But I don't know man, if we had just split the difference or made the episodes like full length, that would have made this like so much better.

And I think it would have won a Peabody because I think the bones are all there.

It's very citizens of Pottsfield skeleton like that.

We have such wonderful structure in place, but it is beset by pumpkins, like rotting pumpkins, like they are beautiful to look at, but overtime they will rot.

And so I wish that the show reached the heights that I I have always felt it it could reach because the opportunities behind it are so wonderful.

But it doesn't totally nail the nail exactly what I want entirely.

Having said that, I still love it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I love I very much.

Words and all.

Agree with you.

I I, Is it perfect?

No.

Does that make me love it any less?

Absolutely not.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Tyler has Tyler has done something magical which is make me say the following words.

This might do better on streaming because you're not contained to 11 minutes an episode in a streaming series.

You could be 1, can be 16-1, can be 24, one can be 8.

And this maybe was just too early for what media would become an only kind of only like 3 years later.

This could have been something really, really different looking because the media landscape changed so much with streaming.

On at the same time though, like on the other side of that.

Where animation?

Is now, yeah.

Even in the world of streaming like like we lost Infinity Train, which I think was the the spiritual successor to over the garden wall in many ways.

You.

You haven't watched Infinity Train though, right?

No, I'm going to make you.

Watch any episode.

It's going to happen.

Let's sail the seas, baby.

Yeah.

But you know, I think like, yeah, I think three years, maybe even 2 would have been a sweet spot for it.

But I think also the only reason we were able to get to such a sweet spot sweet spot is because of the impact that over the Garden Wall had on animation and the way that we saw animation.

Because this was happening at the same time where Adventure Time was occurring.

People were seeing that Adventure Time was getting really popular with like college age people.

And then, you know, they just saw dollar signs from that.

And over the garden wall was kind of like the first sign.

Like, hey, we can make something that is like really artistic and profound, but we can also put our claws into it and make it the thing that we want as the corporate overlord.

And I think that is a shame.

I wish that artists had more opportunity, especially in in animation.

Like we just had K pop demon hunters come out and that is literally a phenomenon and it makes me hope that animation will be taken more seriously in the future.

But.

God bless.

I hope so, doubt it though.

I know I just doubt it the the people in charge these these fucking bureaucrats and and and corporate bullshit and politicians that don't give a shit about workers rights especially like in the animation and film industry like.

Forget it man, Forget it.

We're we're in dark times, but Oh well.

One final thing before we move on, do you guys know anything about the Forcera tape?

No, Yes, I did.

I found out about this yesterday.

Yeah, so.

For Sarah, that tape has been made real and like a physical object that you can purchase and it has like Elijah Wood reading poetry and like really bad clarinet music.

And the idea is like this is the tape that was trying to give.

And I fully under like I haven't been able to listen to it myself because I don't have a fucking tape player.

And that is the only way that it exists, which I think it's really lovely.

But I I do understand why words like let's work up to this one because what an insane thing to give your crush.

Frankly, listen to the three non Blondes.

They're going to sing a song called What's Happening?

Nice, nice, Paul.

Oh my goodness.

Well, thank you all so much for listening to this episode.

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This month we've got an episode all about multipliers.

It's Bilatro, baby.

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And join us next time as we continue sitting at the horror kids table.

And we are not a nut bag, but we are VA very afraid as we talk about the episode The tale of the Dangerous soup from the series Are You Afraid of the Dark?

But for now, we will simply say goodbye.

Bye.

Hey, I know what to do here, Miss Langtry play something like this.

I like this good enough.

Oh, potatoes and molasses.

If you want some, I'll just ask us.

The warm and soft like puppies and socks filled with cream and candy.

Well, I think, Oh never mind, I almost dropped it to your transition.

Well, you're doing so good.

Transition.

I know who wears.

I'm getting a little too big for my transition bridges.

I was just about to say, who's wearing the pants on this podcast?

Glasses.

If you can't see and put on your glasses, they're shiny and large, like a fisherman's bunch.

Rich, Greg, Beatrice and Fred have conned Quincy Endicott, a rich tea merchant, and Ritz and Greg are his nephews, in order to rob.

Him are we?

Are we things rich, everyone?

Shout for.

Potatoes.

I'll start again.

And.

Molasses for potatoes and.

That's enough.