Welcome to Fear Coded, a podcast where we talk about media from the horror genre and take a queer reading of a single book, video game, film, podcast, or TV show to explore just how queer horror can be.

Start date 4/20/69.

We're finishing our time in the Auguste Quadrant, a month dedicated to horrific clowns in fiction.

Before we warp speed into next month, we have one last subject to analyze The clown from Star Trek Voyager Season 2's episode The Thaw.

I'm Tyler.

I'm David and.

I'm Marilee.

Now before we engage in a battle of wits with a mind reading computer clown, I want to check in with my Co host to see how things are going for them in the landscape of horrors that our real world has to offer.

What's making y'all scared or what's making you feel prepared?

I come today in a state of preparation.

We, you know, I thought a lot about it because there was socialization last night, but now that's in the rearview mirror.

So there's nothing to be afraid of there.

It's, it's past me now.

Although I didn't get I didn't

get home until 2:30 AM.

Oh, rippers.

Party animal.

So well that's that is normal here I.

Think that's right?

That's right.

You're in Spain.

Oh, true.

Like 8:00 or 9:00 PM It's wild.

Midnight.

8 or 9 I wish merely that is that is the early bird special and it was 33° when I walked home and I that is it.

Is can you put that in American please?

It's like high 80s.

Oh high 80s poor baby.

At 2:00.

At 2:30 AM Two.

30 AM like it's too warm for that late.

Yes, no I I agree it is too warm.

I'm sorry I I'm Texas brained.

I wish it was in the 80s at 2:00 in the morning here.

Yeah, But I will say that I'm prepared, and today I come prepared because of bread.

I think that through a lot of my life I was told that bread was bad for me.

And maybe that's true.

Maybe carbohydrates aren't the best form of energy.

But now that I have embraced sort of living in a world in which there are no preservatives in bread, I have, I find that the bread is actually a much better part of my diet, and I have been enjoying it.

Now, if I don't eat the bread that I purchase within a day, it's done.

It is dead bread.

I can make French toast with it, that's about it.

It is or croutons, but it is no longer bread for all intents and purposes.

So I've just been enjoying going to the bakery and get in a baguette.

I'm just eating that mother fucker with some cheese with some meat by itself.

What kind of cheese and meat do you put on a Hobbit meal?

Maker of mine.

Sure.

I mean, I'll I will take whatever is handy.

So at said social engagement, there was just a platter of dried meats and cheeses and someone else at the party was like, what are these?

And I was like, what the fuck do you need?

Like 1's a meat and one's a cheese.

Like it's like a fucking adult lunchable up in here.

You don't need to know but I think my my preference Tyler would be an Iberian hamone which is this dry aged cured ham.

Yeah, my preference is always Iberian ham.

Give it to me any way you can, please.

Thank you.

I'll eat Serrano, but the the the good stuff is the reserva, the one that where they feed the pigs only acorns and it apparently changes the taste of the meat because of the acorn situation and Visa V cheese.

I can really go for anything.

I had a really nice manchego last night that was really twirling my socks.

This was creamy and smooth and just a little nutty there at the end.

Can't ever go wrong with like a nice Emmenthal goes with everything and I was just having a little bust and that was just apertivos.

That was just really for me because everyone else was getting drunk and it was me at the meat and cheese board being like Daddy's home.

I feel that in my soul.

When everyone else is getting drunk, catch me by the food.

They put out some crackers that were particularly good too.

Although they looked like they were for children, they they seem to be in some sort of animal like shape.

Incredible.

God, I I love this for all of us.

Just the three of us gathering at the appetizer board where everybody else is getting sloshed because that's me.

Also, let's just eat the snacks.

Truly, truly.

And every once in a while, I'm a little suspicious of a salami.

But they had a salami and it was, it was a, it was a perfect salami.

I love that for you, Salami.

So good, so well.

I do not blame you for being prepared in the slightest.

That sounds like the most prepared you've ever been.

I've true and and that is about food, I think should shock no listener to this podcast.

We're big food fans here, like we're, I think big proponents of having delicious.

Gummy foods gay, so of course we're fans.

True, we've said that on air, we have said that on air.

So but but it, it is at the core, it's bread for me and bread is what's bringing me joy.

But what about each of you?

Marilee, let's turn to you.

Are you feeling scared or prepared this week?

I'm simply not prepared.

I'm sorry, gang, you're.

Not prepared have you have you veered into scared or are you just sort of, I mean ether?

I am also a little scared.

I've got like, I have a lot of chores that I need to do this weekend and it's really bothering me.

Like I have a stack of laundry that I simply have not done.

That is like, it's going to be like two or three loads worth of laundry.

Then I keep looking at me like I really should take care of that.

And then I'm like but I'm tired so I don't and I'm running out of other clothes so I need to do my laundry.

I'm in the same boat.

I'm in the same boat.

It's awful.

I hate why are chores the worst but.

Being an adult is just trying to figure out what to make for dinner and doing your laundry.

Every day.

Every day.

And the answer to both are bread.

If you just ate bread for dinner and then wore bread, you'd be fine.

I don't think that that would work, but David, I love your.

Enthusiasm.

I mean, I haven't heard of a sandwich board, David, but this is a little.

Much.

Yeah, that.

Was good.

That's good.

Well, Mary Lee, I'm sorry that the chores await you, but I I am glad that we could be here to distract you from doing laundry.

Listen, it does not take much as an excuse to not do laundry, but boy, this is one of my favorites that I've used yet.

Some people like to listen to podcasts while doing laundry, and you are podcasting in lieu of laundry.

Yeah.

And listen, sometimes you need, you need a podcast to get a chore done.

I love that.

I, I'm with you.

I am you.

And if you're doing laundry as you listen to this podcast right now, please know that I'm spiritually like giving you a hug, because that fucking sucks, homie.

Treat yourself to a baguette.

Yes, absolutely.

You should go to a bakery, get a really nice bread.

Because you deserve it.

You deserve.

It Tyler, what about you?

Gain.

I have to say I'm feeling prepared today.

Hey.

What's up?

I am prepared because I am now going through my backlog.

Which backlog, you might ask?

There's so many to choose.

From there's so many to choose from, but the fact that I am actually digging into it now is a minor miracle because I I have put, I have put so many things off.

So in this case, one of the things that I put off is a game called Avowed, which is on yes.

So it's on Xbox game pass or just available on Xbox if you want to get it.

It's made by Obsidian, who did Fallout New Vegas, the outer worlds.

A lot of other games are grounded, I think also, but it's it's like a fun fantasy game that's a little bit Elder Scrolls ask, but I like it more because the story's better.

But you it it exists in the same world as the Pillars of Eternity games.

And your character is just described as just I think is meant to be kind of a little ugly.

So I kind of made like a like a like a munchkin man, like like just like not pleasant to look upon.

I would say he's got some huge button shot.

He kind of looks like he just came out of a time machine from 1860, just just a little, just a little grubby, got big mutton chops, things like that.

But he's gay.

And he has a sword that's on fire now and like an old timey flintlock pistol, which is also fun.

Yeah.

So wow, that's what I'm.

That's what I'm doing right now.

So it's just the fact that I am digging into my backlog at all.

It is very satisfying.

I'm also starting to get back into some books to read, shows to watch.

It's great, I love it.

I love that you're making progress on multiple fronts of media backlog, Tyler.

That is very impressive, Absolutely.

Yeah.

We in the household have been doing the same because for a long time people have recommended that Mr.

Robot show and we are like a hot minute away from being done with it.

Oh wow, how do you like it?

I like it a lot.

I mean, it's, you know, like we've left the realm of reality far, far behind, and that's OK.

All right, One more time.

Mike asked, is this going to be like lost?

And I didn't know if he was asking it in a complimentary way or a disparaging way.

And all I could say is I don't know because I haven't seen it yet.

So now that now that we've watched it, I think it's a lot of fun.

Someone recommended some gimmicks episodes for us to cover.

And now that I've watched it, I can sort of evaluate whether or not those are those are right for the podcast.

OK, OK.

Would I recommend someone else watch it in case that's where you were going with this?

I don't know, Tyler.

I don't know.

Like, I'm really happy that we're watching it and I'm happy I only have two episodes left.

Interesting.

Oh boy.

OK.

Yeah, good to know.

Good to know.

Yeah, I like that Rami Malek.

I mean, we talked about him on Until Dawn.

I I like him.

I like that his eyes are slightly bigger than his head.

I think that's awesome.

I think that makes you very expressive, which is.

True.

Very intense actor as well.

I like him a lot.

I remember when Mr.

Robot came out, I watched the first couple episodes that I remember thinking this show's probably gonna be really good and that I'd never watched it again.

Yeah, yeah.

OK.

Well, it's got, it's got, you know, it's got a, it's got a few twists there in the first season, merrily So if you go back.

I I actually know one of the big ones already because that it's impossible not to know if.

You don't tell Tyler, don't tell Tyler or other people because I came into a totally surprised and it was a real tickle I loved.

It Yeah, I know absolutely nothing about this show.

I would never spoil something like that without someones express permission.

I do have to say, though, I do have to say this is not Umbridge with Mr.

Robot itself, but with its parent network USA, the USA Network and, and, and Universal Studios owned by Comcast, etcetera.

We need to go back to shows like Psych and Monk on that station.

Just like good, like Saturday afternoon summertime TV shows where it's like cozy funny mystery, but like the acting's like pretty good.

Tony Shalhoub is there.

I I just, I, I want more of that.

I have real nostalgic feelings for putting that on and just like do my own thing.

But it's like good background noise TV, it's good laundry TV, Bring that back.

I don't need I don't need more drama in my life.

I have enough of that in my life and on my phone.

Just give me give me something pleasant to watch.

It's called Blue Sky Programming and I was such a huge fan.

Psych is one of my favorite TV shows of all time.

So yeah, classic, classic.

Well.

We are.

We're talking about a classic.

We're talking about one of my favorite TV shows of all time.

Because this episode we are talking about the 1996 Star Trek Voyager episode, The Thaw.

Stupid name, just right off the front.

Could have been named 100 Better Things.

This one was directed by Marvin V Rush with a story by Richard Goddess and a teleplay by Joe Manoski, A name you will see a lot in 90s Trek.

For the uninitiated, Voyager is the story of the Starfleet vessel, the USS Voyager, which is attempting to return home after being stranded in the distant Delta Quadrant.

The ship is captained by Catherine Janeway, a much beloved, if slightly controversial character in the Star Trek fandom.

The thaw begins with the discovery of a planet that has recently recently recovered from ecological devastation.

When scans revealed that a small group of survivors should have been awakened by their computer system, the Voyager crew descends into a simulated world run by an omniscient avatar of fear, represented by a clown.

Directing Marvin V Rush discussed in Star Trek Communicator that he was instantly attracted to the story, having resonated with the themes of fear and paralysis.

He also indicated the importance of casting the right actor to play the clown, which is a common refrain that we've heard discussing great clowns in horror today.

Michael McKean is the scary clown in the hot seat as we discuss his betrayal of the clown.

What's everyone's experience with The Thaw or Star Trek Voyager in general?

I have never really watched much Star Trek game.

I'm going to talk about this some more and when we get to the theme section.

But I never really like got into it.

And I watched a little bit of the classic series, like a couple episodes here or there.

I tried to watch Next Generation, but it was a little too daytime TV for me when I watched it, like in my college age years, early 20s.

So that was like early twenty 10s and I only really got into like the more recent Trek stuff like Discovery and Stranger Worlds, but we haven't watched it in a couple years.

So we're a little behind.

But it's something that I'm like kind of familiar with.

Like I love Rafa Khan like that.

That's a great movie, but I haven't really seen any of like, I'm not really conversant in Star Trek TVI guess that's what I would say.

So seeing this, I thought it was kind of like a good introduction to Voyager in terms of like, OK, this is who Janeway's personality is.

This is who some of the people that are around Janeway, this is what they're like.

This is what their roles are like.

So I thought it was kind of like a good introductory episode for me.

And then it's also just kind of like it was scary, which means I'm going to like it.

So yeah, what what do you guys think?

I had never even heard of this episode before.

Like I knew Voyager but I'm I'm not a huge sci-fi person so I I I knew the Voyager existed but I I never really watched it.

Most Trek I've tried to watch and kind of bounced off where for one reason or another, I, I wasn't able to like watch more than a couple episodes at a time.

But honestly, I'm really glad that I now have watched this episode.

I'm obsessed with it.

I love this.

And, and I, I think the Voyager maybe is going to be the secret Trek key for me because I loved this episode.

I've I've I can't wait to watch more.

Yeah, merrily.

I'm I that's where I'm with you too.

Like after I watched this episode it was like wow, I kind of want to start watching Voyager now.

Well, it thrills me to hear that because this was a series that I was very into when it aired live.

This was the flagship of the UPN network.

I've got to say that I I remained a fan of Voyager.

I watched this when I went to college.

I would put this on.

It was something that was very interested in continuing to watch.

I got it on DVD.

This was in regular rotation for me.

I think this is a great thing to just have on and not pay super close attention to if you need something to be in your life while you're doing laundry or playing bilatro.

But I think there are a few episodes, and this is one of them, that are just must watches.

And a lot of that comes down to Mckeon's performance, which is just outstanding.

And if you're interested in Voyager, there's a really great episode of Gimmicks that you guys did about Voyager.

I liked it.

I was not on that one and it is about episodes that I do not care for.

Oh my God, no.

I don't, I don't think Derek is too far off from from my viewpoints on that.

I like that we're actually, we're talking about a holodeck episode in for all intents and purposes, because it is sort of standard Trek fare for the characters to be whisked away into another reality where things are represented, where something technologically has gone wrong and is trying to kill them.

And so, you know, we're this is this is a pretty standard Trek situation, except that I think that the performance really brings it above and beyond what you might see of of on the other episode.

Yeah.

For sure.

So we're going to dig into that and more when we get to our theme section.

So obviously we're talking about August this month.

All sorts of scary clowns.

So scary clowns and fear are inextricably linked together.

So our first theme is fear is the mind killer.

Fear, personified by the clown, is draped in shapeless Gray fabric with matching Gray face paint, a menacing void in a kaleidoscopic cyberspace that the computer has created.

We discovered that the clown was created by the computer system itself as the manifestation of the aliens fears about death in their home planet's recovery.

The Voyager crew have to contend with negotiating with Fear itself.

But how do you defeat Fear?

This is the question the crew grapples with.

Our Scared or Prepared segment is much beloved by not just us, but also I think our audience as well.

You all, when we're feeling scared, how do we hope to resolve that situation?

And do you agree with Jane Wade by the episode's end that Fear's existence is meant to be conquered?

Yeah, part of why I wanted to pitch this episode for Auguste was to talk very specifically about the central conflict and the philosophical conversations that ended up driving the resolution between Janeway and the clown, The clown representing all of fear.

I think that this is a concept that media previously has and would continue to engage with the personification of identities.

We did a little bit of this in our Twilight Zone coverage, but like this is we're like 20 years out from inside out coming out.

You know, this is this is something that we have gone to in media several times over again to explore what it means to for your emotions to be manifest and how we reconcile our emotions.

So I think this episode is actually a really good way of us talking, not just about a scary clown, because here we are, but also a scary clown that represents the sort of emotional regulation which I think is a very important part of engaging with horror media on a critical level.

IA 100% agree.

I one of my absolute favorite parts of this episode.

It was just like such a a tiny little thing.

But when Janeway first enters the computer, she she says something along the lines of no, no, no, I trust that fear is going to do this like fear is like I trust my fear.

It's like a healthy emotion and, and, and I was floored with that because it's just such a smart take.

I, I spend a lot of time with my niece and nephew and so I watch a lot of children's shows.

And a lot of the time you will see the idea of like fear is this bad guy that you got to get rid of when it's actually, in my opinion, an incredibly healthy part of your psyche.

You need fear.

You just can't let it take over.

So I've had the whole thesis here, was so smart and good and I loved it.

Yeah.

I mean, I think one of the things that I that I used to see at Star Trek with is that there's amidst all of the scientific jibber jabber, there's also a lot of like discussion of philosophy in some of the better episodes.

And obviously like fear is a uniting factor in what makes us all alive.

We share it with animals, we share it with, in this case, other aliens.

This is something that's just kind of a universal emotion or concept.

And so I think Star Trek is a really fun environment to have that discussion in because on the one hand, it feels like like a universal eternal thing.

We have to try and make sense of our emotions, which include things like fear.

And this is a really fun way to do that in an interactive medium that's also sci-fi and which means it's kind of sort of magic because there's impossible things that are happening because the technology is so advanced.

It's indistinguishable for magic, as Arthur C Clarke said.

But I think it's also kind of like fun at the same time because it's a little bit campy and very classic, like old school sci-fi stuff.

Like I was really reminded of the Twilight Zone watching this because not only was a very twilight zone situation where it's like you're trapped in one place and and fear is here and you're trying to figure out how to defeat fear, but also like it the dialogue that was used, the kind of speeches that they were giving, it felt all very like almost like Ray Bradbury asked in terms of like, oh, we're doing that sci-fi sort of thing where the sci-fi isn't just about the science, it's also about the human component.

So I thought that was neat.

And I think that's a cool thing that we were able to to kind of view in here.

And I think it's also cool that this is one of the only stories that we've seen this month that's actually about like the real defeat permanently of fear.

Because in everything else, even it, there's still a chance that what if the evil comes back and in this case, we defeat it.

And I think that's a nice way to end August.

Yeah, the evil is defeated.

The evil is defeated.

Did you?

Did you?

Well, did.

You sort of have a sense that, like, Rod Serling was gonna like, poke his head up at the end and be like, here's the lesson, Tyler.

Here's what I wanted you to learn from this.

No, it was.

That's the ending is so good though it doesn't need it.

Yeah, true.

It's Janeway.

That's our Rod Serling, really.

Wow, wow, true.

Listen, I I am excited to talk Janeway for you.

Well, great, so let's jump into that then.

So our second theme is more of a universal theme when it comes to Star Trek, and it's that Star Trek is gay.

So as I said at the top, I have not seen that much Star Trek TVI liked the original series, but the Next Generation, like Bridge of the Enterprise, has the exact same upholstery as my pediatric dentist's office and therefore the.

Trauma.

The trauma.

It's inextricably tied to the trauma.

I can never watch it without feeling and hearing the the grinding buzzing noises.

Oh my God.

They try to use like like laughing gas on me or whatever to try and make my like help make cavity filling and whatever easier.

It didn't work anyway, that's why I don't watch Next.

It's like Joker gas, No, Yeah.

Joker Gas Joker Venom No.

That's why I'm so pale.

But that's a Star Trek.

I also never really got into the other 90s and early 2000s shows like Voyager and Deep Space 9, but like watching this episode of Voyager made me want to jump in and watch the series.

Like I really liked it because like the crew is diverse, which I think is kind of unique for a 90s sci-fi TV show.

I think Captain Janeway is also like a total badass.

She's like, she's not like, she felt a little bit like, like Kirk with the bun, but like, still her own individual person.

And I think that was really cool.

I know that Kate Mulger's character is much beloved in queer circles, as is Star Trek really as a whole.

So as someone who's not really into Star Trek, what do you think draws queer people to this franchise?

And do you feel like this episode is illustrative of Voyager as a series?

David, this is kind of your area.

Do you want to start?

Yeah, I mean, I, I can certainly speak to whether or not this is emblematic of it as a series.

I think this is definitely a peak of the early Voyager.

I think that there are some real stinkers in season 1 and 2 that you can fall into.

Like a lot of series that are getting off the ground, still finding its footing, figuring out who everyone is figuring out kind of what to do.

But I think Tyler brought up some really good points in that this is a diverse cast that you see on the screen.

And that's very exciting and interesting for us as as media consumers.

And that was a directive from the network.

So when we picked this up and when this was planning to be the pilot for UPN, and I will not make this podcast about UPN.

I could go a solid 3 hours just talking about UPN and the the utter batshit insanity that was the UPN network.

But at its score, it was very, very important that that people felt represented when they watched television programming on the UPN, which is why within three years time this would be the network for black sitcom comedy was not able to find a footing anywhere else.

It would all end up coming to the UPN.

And so you had like WWF Voyager and then Moisha like it was, it was an absolutely wild set of circumstances.

And then UPN would try to save itself by buying Buffy and Roswell.

Just wild, wild network situation.

But that they made the decision that we would have people who represented us made the cast look so dynamically different and so dynamically more interesting than something like The Next Generation or even DS9.

But there were some complex and problems associated with that.

The casting of Catherine Janeway in particular mirrors a lot of the experience we had with the casting of Benjamin Sisko in DS9, who was the 1st, for all intents and purposes, black Starfleet captain that we had seen.

And Janeway was the first woman character.

And so you can see the things that the creators put into the character to make them a little bit more palatable to the straight white sis male audience who was engaging with Star Trek.

So Janeway's a little bit more authoritative.

She is Kirk with a button, in some ways the bun of steel as it was known.

And she is a lot more scientific.

And for Cisco, it was his love of baseball because like, how can you hate a person who loves baseball?

This is America and it it is funny to watch these things run.

But for both Cisco and Janeway, their characters actually like leaned into it and built off of it.

And they became more successful because of it.

And I think that's particularly interesting.

I love that this series has three white men.

One of them is required to be in makeup 24/7 when you see them on screen, and one of them has to be bald.

The only one you get that maybe looks like you young teenage listener is Tom Paris and you're supposed to think he's kind of an idiot.

And God bless.

God bless.

That's so fun.

I guess I'll I'll add to that.

Is that because of the sort of edge that they gave Jane Way?

I think you can read some masculine qualities into the Jane Way character and that creates a situation in a circumstance for queer identification.

And by season 4, we would be bringing on a new female character who would later be canonized as a queer character.

And that is also kind of an exciting part of the Voyagers history.

Yeah, and isn't I?

I feel like I remember that a lot of people have a very like the one of the big ships in the Star Trek versus a lesbian one with, with with with, with Janeway, right?

Like Janeway and and the Borg person whose name I don't remember this number.

Janeway and seven of nine yes, it the I think the relationship is very mentor mentee and if that works for you, for your kind of slash fiction, I think I always write a little bit more mother daughter.

So it never worked for me.

Got it got it relationship level, but I could totally see people going for it.

And since 7:00 is a lesbian, later it, you know, sort of fulfilled its own destiny by having the slash written about it.

Got it, got it, got it.

I mean, the thing about Star Trek being gay is that from the roots and this is like I again, I've always appreciated Star Trek because I know it's history and I know that why people love it.

I just have never been into it myself.

But you know, like the term of slash fiction when you're talking about ships is was invented by fans of the original series.

They invented slash to talk about Kirk, slash Spock ship fiction.

So, you know, you got to honor your history.

Truly and honestly, this is where it comes from.

This is where slash comes from and there was even a sub sub genre of K&S which was when they were friends.

Yeah, you know that.

Was the the thing K?

And S friends K/S They're into each other.

Something else, something bonus, little extra.

Oh, I like forward slash there.

Well, the other thing I like about this the clown.

Yeah, the.

Clown.

So let's talk about this 3rd and final theme for the episode, The clown and other Bozos.

Michael McKean is a wonderful actor with a long and prestigious career.

From Clue to Better Call Saul.

His clown feels like a mixture of all the clowns we've seen thus far, the sadism of Pennywise, the color palette of art, and the humor of the Joker.

However, he is also an explicitly sci-fi creation, a malicious computer program holding hostages like AM from I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream.

The connecting tendon between all of these clowns is that they play by their own rules.

As trickster archetypes.

They can get away with breaking reality to pull pranks on their victims.

In this way, they reject the status quo and live according to their own whims.

Y'all are clowns.

Queer.

I mean, yeah, I hate that you have made me include, you know, the art, the clown somehow in the this conversation for a media that I really enjoyed.

But yeah, no, I mean, clowns are queer.

I think that we could all agree on that.

I actually think this ends up being a really nice bookend of the month because of that.

I think that this is sort of a celebration of clown horror, and there is something queer about the idea of being inside something different than people perceive you to be.

On the outside.

We see clowns, we perceive them to be, I don't know, goofy.

But in reality, there's a lot more going on for them, and we get a lot of that from Mckeon's performance.

Yeah, right.

And I mean, if you think about it too, like, they're also like killing straight people.

Yeah.

Always so so automatically makes them gay.

Yeah, even even if you're straight, when you kill a straight person, you become a little gay.

We.

Give it a little.

Bit I think McKean is another reason that this sort of raises to the top of queerness because it his performance benefits from the fact that McKean took a lot of roles as a gay character, even though he's, I mean, well, I'll get to it in a second.

He is married to a woman and his identity may benefit from an interpretation of that.

He's never come out.

We could interpret him to be heterosexual because of that.

But you look at him playing not Fox Mulder, but Fox Mulder on The X-Files where they body swap.

It's incredible.

Obviously as Mr.

Green in Clue, I thought they called people like you a fruit.

Just truly and honestly best in show where him and John Michael Higgins are a couple raising dogs together.

Like there is this is a actor who has who has chosen not to be discomforted by taking queer roles over and over again.

And I think that lends itself a little bit to the interpretation of this, just because if you have seen Michael McKean in something else, you probably have seen him acting as a queer person in one way or another.

Yeah, about halfway through the episode, I like stood up and shouted, that's Mr.

Green.

So so it really I agree 100%.

And then he's going to go home and sleep with his wife.

Well, and he and he will Tyler because in 1999, I think Michael McKean does the gayest thing that any person could possibly do and he marries Annette O'Toole and like truly and honestly the dream.

Yeah, and I mean, talk about like the book ends too as a result, because we got Annette O'Toole in the miniseries.

Truly and honestly, what a blessing.

What a blessing.

Yeah, very true.

I think also like Mckean's clown in this is very like kind of haughty and campy.

Like he's definitely playing.

He's so.

Camp.

He's so camp, which is really fun because never mind, because he's a clown.

He's supposed to be funny, but he's really good at also flipping between funny and scary.

And if you know some gay men very capable of that as well.

Wow, Wow.

My exes come on the podcast.

No.

Well, Speaking of scary exes, I I guess we do need to roll into the criteria that we look for for every piece of media that we consider on the podcast.

The first of which is, is it horror?

Were you scared watching Star Trek Voyager?

The Thaw.

I think there's a couple bits or scenes that are scary with the clown.

I think the his torturer Harry Kim is the scariest scene.

But when the spectre shows up, which is the the very tall like ragged creature thing with big teeth and like get a very indistinct face, when he showed up, I screamed.

You love him, I love him.

I love him so much.

He's like dog face.

It's great.

He's like bad snuffle, bad snuffle up, but I can't even say it.

Snuffle off, I guess.

Yeah, like, I think like afterwards I was like Slay, but when I first saw him, he's just so different looking than all the other, like clowns around.

I he just stood out to me and it's like.

Yeah.

I love that it's the sort of thing that I.

Actually kind of wish we had gotten from Joker's posse last week.

And yeah, like, weird.

Hench people did nothing, but this guy, he did a lot.

He did.

He did a lot.

He did a lot sometimes.

You just need a weird little guy sitting in the corner.

I I I always sort of write him as having a bemused or like, happy expression, which I think adds to the terror of it all.

Yeah, definitely.

It's.

Like why is he?

Why is he?

Happy.

What's going on here?

I don't want him to be happy.

I don't like it.

I am, that's I'm.

Excited to hear that from from you, Tyler.

I would be interested in your perspectives as well.

Marilee I.

Think this squarely falls into horror like any way you slice it, like I, I, I was never really scared.

I was just so viscerally delighted basically the entire time that the clowns were on screen.

But like it's just the the the actions of the computer program and everybody inside people being scared to death.

Like even when you think about it like the horrible events on this planet that has left only 5 survivors Horrible, horrible.

It's horrible from top to bottom and I love it delicious.

If he'd be more, well, that makes me very.

Happy.

I was a little worried this would be light on scares for you all.

Light light on the horror of it all.

And I'm, I'm delighted that you're both picking up on it.

I, I, to me, I, I, I love this episode.

I think it's fantastic.

I'm glad we're covering it.

I, I was worried because it felt so much more science fictiony than horary.

And but I, I think the philosophical conversations about fear that we're going to dive into and sort of take apart as we go, the beat by beat are totally worth it.

And I think belong in like a fucking a 24.

Like I think this is like introspective meta navel gazing about fear is is a part of the horror genre and it is an important thing for us to consider, especially when it comes to emotional regulation of fear as part of our psyche.

Absolutely.

I really truly agree.

I think, you know, this was David's suggestion, obviously.

And I, the first time I watched this episode, I was like my, my heart held two emotions only first of all, visceral delight and, and, and, and relief that we got to talk about something good, that this was great.

I loved this.

And then also just like a real gratefulness that this is going to be the conversation that we have to end this month because this is so perfect.

It's really is all of the best parts of clown horror rolled into one.

And I wish that we had been talking about stuff like this so much.

Yeah, I also.

Watching this made me be like, God, I wish Pennywise had a little troop with him.

How fun would that have been if you had little guys with him?

Because I think one of the things I love about the cloud, which is the only name we have for Michael Mckean's character, like I, I just love his little contrary of people.

I love them.

They're so great.

They're so little freaks.

I love them all.

And he the the episode wields them so perfectly and so unsettlingly.

Like all of the moments where they're like behind him in a chorus are fantastic.

Like the moment where he goes to like conference with them away from everybody else.

Like even the moment where we see the clown being down and they cheer him up and be like, why don't you go torture those people you got?

And and he's like, Oh my God, gosh, thank you.

You're so smart and like gets up to go and do.

It's all so good.

It's delicious.

I love it.

It really is.

I love that in our.

Conversation about is it horror?

We brought up the fact that they have like a little meeting and anyone who's been in a modern day office knows that a meeting is horror.

Like, Oh my God, always.

Yeah, but listen, that's not.

Enough.

It's not enough to be.

It's not.

Enough.

For for us for fear coded to cover it, it also has to be queer.

So what are your guys's feelings like?

How are we going to, I'd like, talk about this piece of mania through the lens of queer theory.

Yeah, I think this felt.

Like a very queer selection.

And I'm glad that it is the thing that we end up the month on because like the the clown as this trickster figure who is a little who's not a little very campy and just a little like not not masculine, not effeminate, just like his his own deal.

And I think that's a wonderfully queer thing to like visualize and materialize.

He's also not even like a person, although he acts like a person, which I think is also a little bit of a queer thing.

And he also plays it like post humanism a little bit, to which queer people do, you know, kind of connect with in some ways, especially nowadays, which it's all about just like what is humanity in the world of machines?

So I think that's all very, very queer.

I think it's also lots of bright colors and just, it's a lot of fun.

It's making fun out of something serious.

And I think that's a fair thing to do.

It's a very queer thing to do because.

It's like a survival technique that we've learned.

So I feel like this was very queer.

What do you all think?

I mean, I agree.

I think I think part of the textual queer reading of this is that he is someone who makes normies uncomfortable.

And I, I think if you're going to send a normie in Harry Kim is is the template the the only better one you could have sent in to be like, here's a normal person quote normal person like Fox Mulder.

Don't you hate how normal your life is?

You'd send in Tom fucking Paris.

That would be that would be like the the NTH degree.

Harry is like 1 notch below that because he's so young and nubile and it's just an NTH in.

And I love it.

I love that Viscera and his like crew of remaining survivors was freaked out by all of this.

I think it's a queer reading to say that like the eruption of the clown came from a suppression of a feeling.

And if you suppress queerness, we will simply erupt and we will make a a little circus freak cadre to follow us around that that is what we do.

And so ban us at your own risk because or else is coming.

Well, that's a found family for.

You and found families are queer yeah yeah.

I 100% agree with both of you.

Wonderful.

I think this is gay I.

I am really excited to to talk about a lot of the reasons why, but I think a lot of them are going to center on the clown themselves.

Yes, because there's.

There, there are, Camp King today, truly.

Well then, let's dive into it and do the beat by beat of the 1996 episode The Thaw of Star Trek Voyager.

The episode begins with Ensign Harry Kim playing his clarinet in his quarters with another crew member, but they are interrupted by a call to the bridge.

A planet has just been discovered.

The planet is in the early stages of ecological recovery and automatic Hales play a recording of one of the last survivors, an alien man named this.

I think it's Vizora, but.

I also just.

Girl, you know what?

He's the alien guy.

Vizora explains that he and a few other survivors are in artificial hibernation below the planet's surface, but their computer system would wake them up in 15 years.

However, Vizora and the others are four years past their scheduled awakening, and Captain Janeway just cannot help herself and go back home.

Girl, it is a long trip.

She's got to stop and help them out because they're four years over their little sleepy time.

She orders that their pods containing the survivors be beamed to Voyagers Cargo Bay, and over a period of investigation, the crew discovers 2 things.

One, that the survivors have scans that periodically show them the condition of the planet, but they have chosen not to end their hibernation.

And two, some of the colonists who died in their pods show physical signs of prolonged exposure to fear accompanied by death due to it's a heart attack.

Lot going on.

There's there's a lot of setup in this episode yes, and this is a very.

Voyager thing though, Tyler, this is very Voyager.

It was a really.

Great way to set up the episode.

I was intrigued and confused where the whole clown was going to come in because I that's why we were watching it.

I knew there was going to be a cloud eventually.

I don't.

I wasn't sure how we were going to get to abandoned planet to Clown, but then as soon as I saw the pods come in, I started to get excited.

It's.

So funny to me that if you change the music in this beginning to something scarier, it would have worked as like the start of a sci-fi horror movie.

Absolutely.

Yeah, clarinet's a scary.

Instrument.

My God the.

Worst.

Yeah, a read.

I've got to say, though, this is We'll later use other tropes for Harry, but Harry playing his silly little clarinet is code for Harry is just a little child.

He's just a little baby.

This is going to be an episode about Harry being a little baby and everyone's got to save Harry and just kind of funny.

It is a nice way to do that for both of you who are brand new.

You probably got a little of that text, you know, either subtextual or textually from it.

But it if you if you just look, if the episode opens with any any mention of the clarinet, you're like, Ah, yes, you're just a child.

And later we'll use other techniques to do the same thing for poor little Harry forever and Ensign Harry Kim, a little baby.

Hairy.

Cute.

Oh boy.

Well, Captain Janeway orders Harry Kim and Lieutenant Belana Torres to enter the computer system using 2 empty cryopods.

A subroutine will grant them an exit.

Once inside, Kim and Torres enter the Matrix system.

Which looks brightly coloured.

Labyrinthine and overall circus like clowns and damper dancers jump around and play around while a grey clown overseas the arrival of Starfleet.

The clown shows Kim and Torres around, alternately dancing and playing with them as the crew members are pushed along by the crowd of performers.

Eventually the music shifts, becoming more sinister.

Before them is revealed a pink guillotine, very aesthetic, operated by a hot executioner who presses a red button and chops a log.

Kim and Torres are separated and Kim is placed in the guillotine.

There's a great commercial break.

Here I think, you know, we're doing, we're doing everything that television used to remember to do, which is to use your breaks very intentionally.

Absolutely.

I just this whole thing is great.

And first and foremost I got to say hot pink guillotine.

Oh, it's great.

Let's go.

The guillotine is fantastic.

I, I think the musical lead up to all of this, which is just, Oh yeah, it's crowded.

It's giving you claustrophobia and the sort of the sort of push zoom in on the guillotine for the execution to push the button and chop the log synced up with the music is just it's high art here and I, I absolutely love it.

Yes, yeah.

The the way that they use music in this episode in particular was really phenomenal throughout.

Yeah, the.

Director even talked about using a film by Federico Fellini called 8 1/2 that he was inspired by.

So I think some of like these more like interesting camera work, touches like the the slow zoom into the guillotine and the way the crowd kind of moves around and becomes like an organic mass that's all just operating under the behest of the clown.

It's very effective.

It's even spooky.

And we actually see stuff like that in more modern, like 21st century horror, which I think is really cool.

Yes.

I am of course most familiar with the musical sequence because it is one of the times when you can see the executioner of the most, which meant that I wore it out on my VHS tape.

Oh my God, David.

I love you.

I'm sorry this.

Man is perfect, He is.

What the fuck?

Like I, I, I, I.

Can't beat the allegations that this is the reason I chose this episode.

Truly and honestly.

It's been a long con getting the two of you together for the podcast so that I could talk about this on air.

And you know what?

Worth it.

Proud of you.

Yeah, proud of you if.

This.

If that was real, then I would be so impressed with you right now.

He would, absolutely.

Be like a model student at the Arvagas School of Portly Gentlemen.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah, Professor.

Truly and honestly.

Yeah, Professor.

Emeritus, No.

No details on this actor.

He it's sort of a mystery of other fans of Bears have talked about this man for many years.

Even hotter.

We love an international.

Man of mystery don't know who he is, They.

Just found him and put him in a.

Leotard, yeah, but that's how the 90s used to.

Be the 90s knew.

The 90s knew what I needed Tyler before I knew what I needed, and it was the executioner.

None of this.

So suddenly, Viscera and the other two survivors appear around the corner.

Viscera tells the clown that if they execute Kim the star, then Starfleet will shut down the system.

The Cloud concedes to Viscera begging and releases Kim.

By plugging in the system, the clown can read a person's thoughts and now he knows everything about Kim and Torres.

He plays on their insecurities, mocking them and revealing that he has to keep Kim and Torres as hostages.

If everyone unplugs from the system or the system is deactivated, then the clown and all of his cronies will disappear.

The clown also reveals that he is the cause behind the death of the other occupants in the pods.

He scared them to death.

This.

Is a great sequence of scenes where we get to see like first Viorza or the the alien and his alien companions showing up.

And now there's like a new dynamic involved.

And we're also getting like the answer to the question of what happened to the survivors.

And there's only three of them coming from 400,000, which is really like a little sad.

But we're moving and and so fast into clown territory.

We don't have time to keep up.

And I love Mckeens real like dialogue delivery here.

He gets, he has to talk so much in this episode.

He definitely is like saying the most words and spending the most time on screen and he is making the most out of every minute.

I love the way he's doing this psychological play with Kim and Torres and merrily, I don't know about you, but I actually liked that because it helped me understand a little bit more who Kim and Torres were.

Yeah.

And I and like.

As someone who never saw Voyager before, super helpful, right?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So really.

I also have to thank the.

Clown for making this easier for us to get into.

Yeah, I was pretty sure.

That Torres was Klingon, but like the the the clowns like being like, Oh yeah, you got that from your mother, huh?

I was like, OK, family, I get it.

I get it.

And.

And the way that the clown talked about Harry King's mind really made me understand who he was a lot more.

Yeah.

And.

And I really.

I thought I was into it.

I just God, this guy guys.

I was really struggling with this month, gang I, I was, I was struggling.

The last two episodes really drained me.

I was not looking forward to clowns.

If you you know me in real life that you probably heard me talk about how I was so tired of fucking clowns for for several weeks there.

But it was somewhere in here that I, I paused to realize, Oh my God, I am enjoying this.

I'm having such a good time.

I loved the idea and I just I this clown made clown horror fun for me again.

And I just he the way that he thread the needle between whimsy and threat was so perfect.

It was just it was exactly.

It was the remedy that I needed.

Yeah.

And I.

While while I think that we had to navigate the brambles to get there, I do think that clown horror elicits a type of edginess that we ended up getting exposed to, whether that's from the Terrifier franchise and Art the Clown therein and Leon's, you know, issues that he needs to deal with or the way in which people interpret and tell stories about the Joker and all of the problems that go along with that.

And yet to bookend the month we had Pennywise, Yeah.

Legitimately excellent and.

Here the clown who I think shows you what it means for this to work to be fun and terrifying that it it just it's not enough for you to just be a clown and be scary.

You have to sort of be clownish and then have the fear come in almost out of nowhere to let it be a hidden second thing.

Yes, and.

And it's just it's accomplished so perfectly here.

And one of my favorite instances of that in this section is what he's talking about, how he's in everybody's minds now and he has, like, this giant, like, huge Starfleet badge.

Like, yeah, I'm part of you now.

And he, like, shines off the batch.

It was so perfect.

I loved it.

Made me so happy.

Oh yeah, It was fantastic.

I loved it when he did that.

That was like the the camp, the horror, the humor all wrapped up in one after this routine.

Appears in the manufactured world as a Bigot computer panel.

The clown angrily demands that it be get rid of.

Kim argues that removing it would mean removing a way to contact the outside world, which eventually convinces the clown to keep it, and the clown agrees to send a Taurus back, but Kim must remain as a hostage.

Back on the ship, the crew tried to determine their next steps, and after a philosophical discussion on the benefits and drawbacks of fear, Janeway orders the crew to figure out a way to interact with the clown without a physical connection to the system.

Returning to that circus of nightmares, Kim and the other hostages talk about how the Voyager crew are working on their escape.

But the Clown hates that kind of conversation, so to teach Kim a lesson, he first makes Kim old and then a little baby, and then forces Kim to remember a traumatic visit to a colony after a radiation disaster.

Strapped to a Gurney, the Clown mocks and terrorizes Kim before the Doctor appears, interrupting the Clown's fun.

The doctor from Doctor Who.

No, this is a a.

Different.

Doctor.

Not that doctor.

Different kind of doctor I.

Thought this was such a fun sequence, like like like a couple minutes of great television.

So I love the the whole thing.

Back on the ship, we get to see like this philosophical discussion.

It's lit very well, too, because they're talking about fear and horror and what that means.

Meanwhile, the office meeting room they're in is dimly lit.

People are cast in shadows.

They look kind of mysterious.

It creates the sort of ominous vibe that is really omnipresent in the virtual world.

And the.

Clown.

The threat of the clown was so real, like in all of this, the scenes, but in this particular section of scenes, the threat of him was so visceral.

It was fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, I loved.

It I, I, I love all the, I mean, poor Harry, but like, I love when, when bad things happen to Harry Kim, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's a, it's a device that has gone to because you are meant to empathize and, and feel for this lost young person is on his first assignment and he gets completely stranded in a completely different part of the Galaxy.

It is, it is, it is a character who is meant to be struggling with these kind of fears and.

And you, you really feel that and, and you feel how brave he is.

Despite all of that, I will say there is one line here that really threw me for a loop.

When the clown is talking, he's like she's like a deer old mother to you and like why are we treating Jane away like she's old Like that is AII tried to look it up.

I was like, maybe because I am in my mid 30s now, I can't and I know that Kim is supposed to be younger.

Am I like reading this wrong?

But I looked it up and and people are like saying that in season 1 Jane way is like 35.

So she's 36 here.

She's not an old lady.

I don't understand why we're talking about her like she's a matron.

She's not I, I I think that.

Entire line of dialogue goes to serve Kim alone.

It is not about Jane Way at all.

It is about how Kim perceives his boss as his mother, which he does.

Maybe that's fair.

I still wish that they had expressed that a different way, because don't treat Jane like she's an old lady.

She's so fierce.

Well, I really.

Loved just the whole rest of that horrific sequence with the clown making Kim old.

I thought like the makeup job that they did on old Kim was fine.

It was serviceable.

I it, it all felt very much like I have no mouth and I Must Scream, which is a short story about a psycho godly computer program torturing humans.

And that's absolutely what we get here.

And it's also playing on the psychological aspect too, which I think is always fun.

I think there's a fun irony also to like, as David is now revealing to me, like there's some like conflict with Harry Kim in the show and how young he is, how inexperienced and just kind of naive.

And I think making one of his fears being that he's afraid of getting old and and taken care of by a parent or by a nurse.

I think that was neat.

And then just immediately flipping the switch and doing a 182 Kim being a baby.

And then also like the way the clown was handling the baby was like, the baby is not in danger but the way he is behaving with the baby makes ones brain go like take save the baby.

So I thought that was also really fun.

It's just like it's all one kind of like fun scary thing after another like a haunted house until shit gets real and Kim is strapped to the Gurney and the clown is standing over him with a scalpel yelling at Kim, which is a first.

We haven't actually seen the clown do that before.

Which then leads us to meeting the doctor.

What a joy.

What a joy this is a this is a sort of series long campification of the Doctor a a emergency Medical holographic program that is that was activated after their own doctor died.

And so it he is a computer program that operates in sick Bay alone because he has a hologram, he cannot leave.

And Robert Picardo was such a a comic actor that they started to slowly provide him as sort of a Comic Relief to a lot of the things like turn me off before you leave or things like that.

And so this is this is perhaps one of the the greatest steps forward in this man being an absolute camp icon.

And he will continue to do that throughout the series to the degree that by the end he is performing in an opera because he learns to love to sing.

And he almost leaves the ship to perform opera on a planet I love.

This, I treasure this.

Thank you, David, for that context.

I'm even more excited to dig.

Into this show now.

Yeah, like I, I know.

Picardo.

I've seen him in lots of other things, so like I he's looked the same for 30 years, by the way.

So as soon as I saw him, I was excited.

I figured he was some sort of, of, of robotic something or other.

I figured he was more like Data in some way.

But knowing that he's just a hologram that was created because they're Doctor died, that's insane.

I love this.

Yeah, he appears in.

One of those Star Trek movies, I think Crusher summons him to like deal with the Borg and he's like, I can't help you with the Borg.

I'm a doctor.

And she's like, man, the door.

And yeah, he's he's, he's part of the the world.

Because apparently every Starship had one of these.

Just in case your doctor was out of Commission, you could launch this up and it could like, I don't know, wave a device over something which is All Star Trek medicine is just waving fucking things over people.

Be like, you're healed.

Get out of here and we'll have even more of just.

Waving a device and it works very shortly, but I, I.

Love this like Kunti delivery of being like that's not how you hold a scalpel.

Just it it is, it is, it is the doctor at 11, but it will become his four in a couple seasons.

And just know that there's so much.

Can't wait.

Treasure.

That.

His line delivery.

Every word was like, it tastes too good, you know?

Exactly.

And again.

I know Picardo, so this is this is he is putting on a camp performance with a capital CP here and.

Delicious.

Wonderful.

Everyone has.

Seen this man in other things by the way he has been in like, Oh yeah, you know who he.

Is you don't know it, but you do know exactly who he is.

And again, he's looked the same for 30 years.

So just like Michael McKean.

You have seen him in things, even if you don't realize it.

And as it turns out, Michael McKean and Robert Picardo like came up together with their their careers.

So I think it's fun.

It's even.

Better that way, truly.

So the Doctor, Robert.

Ricardo Voyager's medical hologram physically and mentally disarms the Clown.

The Clown can't read the Doctor's thoughts because the Doctor is not in the system.

The Doctor politely brushes the topic aside, informing the Clown that he is a representative of Captain Janeway.

Janeway is offering a simulated brain in exchange for all of the hostages.

Release but the Clown box at the suggestion.

When he demands that Viorza confirm whether such a clean would be such a thing would be doable, Viorza says that it can be done by modifying the optronic relays, which sounds like gibberish, but it is relevant.

The Clown dismisses the Doctor, who reports back to Jane Wade that the Clown is unpredictable on and unstable, just as fear is.

After discussing the matter with the crew, Torres deduces that Viorza was sending a message.

She can disassemble the environment by input.

By interrupting the system's optronic pathways.

Instead of extracting the hostages, they can remove the harmful environment around them.

Yeah, one of the.

Critiques about Voyager is that there are always these scientific and engineering based solutions, versus TNG where it's a lot more relational and DS9 where it was a lot more political.

I fucking love it because for all intents and purposes, this may as well be fucking potion making and alchemy because what the fuck is an optronic relay?

I don't care in the same way that I don't care where Dragon's root grows.

But if we throw it in the cauldron, like, we're going to fix the problem.

And to me that makes this Series A lot more adventury.

And that's what I was really looking for as a young person trying to get into Trek.

I love TNG, but TNG is a soap opera in space.

Where you're just waiting for Riker to kiss someone and he does a lot.

Me, I wish, but I also love and it was wild watching this today.

The conceit that essentially the science fiction question that we're dealing with is the conflict in this sequence is, would an artificial intelligence be motivated by an artificial audience?

And the clown says, like, no, I don't want an artificial brain.

That's not going to be fun for me.

I want a real brain.

And it just feels like we're wading into this very issue, not about fear particularly, although if you're making a ChatGPT for just fear, maybe, like, consider this episode and stop doing that because it seems like it's not enough to just do your job.

You also have to do your job for an audience.

Yeah.

That's a really great point.

And, and there's a minute where Torres says in this section that an artificial brain will never like replace a regular one.

And the doctor is offended by that.

But I I really got that because it's true.

I don't think that you can.

Art needs a human touch.

And the clown clowning is an art form.

He wants.

He wants the real thing.

Exactly.

And.

And I thought that that was a really smart commentary and very poignant for this moment in time.

Yeah.

*.

Trek always remains relevant and invents the things before where the reality invents them.

So just another fun example of Star Trek predicted it.

But I do think it's also like kind of can't be as well.

The way the clown reacts to this whole thing.

This is around the time I believe when they he's kind of like playing around with his troop trying to like like deduce like, what should we do here?

Like what's the game plan?

Something we haven't talked about and helps make this episode kind of creepy, is that there are cuts between characters in one location suddenly being in another.

This happens a lot with the clown, who's just seemingly able to teleport from one spot to another instantly.

But it also happens with the crowd, because the crowd is also a simulation, so they can just be wherever they need to be.

And I think when they're talking to the clown and then suddenly there's a huge crowd behind the clown, it helps make it spookier.

And I think we have some of that in here as well.

I think if you also want to extend it, it just shows like how making a found family of queer people can be, you know, intimidating to straight people, but, you know, it keeps you alive.

And I think that's what the clown is trying to do here.

So I, I really enjoy this whole sequence.

I think the artificial brain also kind of works in the sense that, like, if we ever try to map the human brain onto another like, device, it just probably would not work that way because the brain is too complex.

But even in the world of sci-fi and Star Trek, the clown is able to call that out.

So yeah, all, all just a lot of fun.

I also just really like the solution and I like that the optronic pathways are not like the solution in the sense that like oh the Viorza was just telling you the instructions, but instead he used the gibberish for like a plot reason.

Yep, Yep, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I, I the gibberish always works for me.

I'm.

I'm here to tell you, But people who hate it absolutely hate it.

And there's a moment in a very early episode where Janeway and Tori's are together and they both shout warp particles at each other, which is like, what the fuck are we even doing here?

But they're both so excited about it that it's infectious.

And I say get your warp particles, ladies, let's do it.

That's cute.

I.

Love that we love war particles.

Here we do love war particles.

This is a pro war.

Particles Podcast.

All right, so the Doctor returns to the virtual world as Torres begins disassembling the Otronic relays.

As the Doctor and Kim work together to distract the Clown, parts of the environment and even members of the Clown's troop phase out of existence.

The Clown eventually notices, and the remaining performers attack in real space.

Torres moves quickly, but a small force field delays her.

The bodies of all of the hostages are slowly showing physical signs of distress, especially Viorza.

He has been captured and marched to the guillotine.

Although Kim and the Doctor try to save him, the crowd is overwhelming.

Viorza is executed and in real space.

His body fails.

He's dead.

Janeway concedes, saying we've lost in the manufactured world.

The clown and his troops celebrate.

He declares proudly.

We've won, we've won.

We won the the balance.

Between Janeway saying we've lost, which would typically be the commercial break, to then cutting back inside to have them celebrate is, it is the most delectable moment of this episode to me.

Oh, yes.

Oh.

My God.

And I think McKean knew.

It too, the way he was really leaning into the scumminess of saying we've won, we've won.

Just like I hate him but I love him I.

I do not hate him.

I do not hate him even a little bit.

I love that little slap ball.

My favorite.

RIP yours.

You were straight and therefore had to die.

Yeah, but he did leave.

A dramatic voicemail for the crew.

So well then he, you know, he tried to be.

Queer there at the end, yeah.

He was like, I'll.

Stir some tea and untucked.

That'll be my last, my last issue, the house.

Boots, Mama, that's what he said.

Well, Jane Way, grief stricken, paces around as the Doctor attempts to console her.

Jane Way instead focuses on the mission.

What does fear want?

She asks.

People enjoy fear in dangerous environments, like on roller coasters.

The Doctor suggests that people seek fear to seek the boundaries of 1's sensory experiences.

But Jane Way counters, asking what it is fear itself wants back in the manufactured world.

The Doctor appears with Janeway's ultimatum.

Release all of the hostages or she shuts down the system.

The clown, initially confident, begins to panic and refuses the suggestion.

However, the Doctor clarifies.

In exchange, Captain Janeway will offer herself as hostage, and the Clown emphatically agrees.

It's delicious.

It's so.

Good.

Oh yeah.

Kate Mulgrew, come on the podcast, talk about your hand performance in this scene because Mama, you are doing some like a lot of letting the hands talk for you.

And you know what?

Not even a criticism because I do the exact same fucking thing.

Truly, she loves to justiculate.

She she's, she's there, she's everywhere and I love that for her.

I I really like her in this sequence.

It feels really good to see like a powerful woman have to like solve the situation.

I think especially like in 2025, it's just really satisfying to watch her do that and get the best of someone that's really, really scummy and smug.

So I again, I like, really see why people like attach themselves to Janeway like queer people do.

Like she is kind of, she is giving, mother, she is giving.

Mother and I also do.

Love just the way the clown begins to panic.

Mckean's performance here is is just so good.

It feels very classic, like Adam West Joker, like from the old Adam West Batman series.

Like it's just like, I'm having fun, I'm having fun.

Oh no, my plans.

Yeah, I, I, I agree.

But I, I love how eager he is to get Janeway, because it's almost like scaring Harry Kim would be boring.

It would be very easy to.

It'd be like scaring me.

Like, wow, how, how easy for you?

Like, take the training wheels off and like, do someone hard.

And he has a sense that this is the person who would be more fun to scare for the rest of her life and all of that sort of subtextual.

And I love.

I know that it's part of the story because I've obviously read a lot about Voyager, but I also know there's nothing in the script that really proves that.

And so you get it only off of Mckeens performance.

And again, I think in our laurels for Michael McKean, this must be among them.

Yeah.

And you?

Know another thing here is that you you get very much like the I he enjoys the idea that someone would want to be scared would want to spend time with him in like a real way and and that comes across phenomenally yeah cuz then in.

Our next scene, which I'm going to get to in a moment, like they're taught, like the clown talks about, like finally someone appreciates me, right when it comes to fear, right?

Yeah, it's it's so very good, the whole thing.

And I, I while we're like giving Kate Mulgrew her flowers, like we didn't expressly say this when talking about her, but this is Flemeth from Dragon Age and I just wanted to make sure that that wasn't lost on you, Tyler, as a big Dragon Age head.

Oh, no, no, no, I.

Knew.

OK, trust me.

Good.

Her presence was sorely missed in Dragon Age.

The Vale guard.

I'll just say that.

Yeah, Well, so.

So.

Was me having any amount of fun playing the game?

Yeah, me too.

But this isn't a criticism of Dragon Age The Veil Cost podcast.

This is talking about the end of the episode, the thaw from Star Trek Voyager.

So I'm gonna take us home now, just like Janeway is supposed to take them back to Earth, but they're trapped in the Delta Quadrant.

The clown and Kim have.

One final conversation.

The clown is all confidence, squirming with excitement as he feels Jane Way's brain scammed by the system.

He's even telling everyone clean up the place, make it look nice for Jane Way.

And although the clown briefly suspects that Kim does not believe in Jane Way's plan, he is rebuffed by Kim's truly objective knowledge that Jane Way would sacrifice herself for her crew.

Janeway shortly arrives as parts of the environment and clown minions disappear.

She circles the clown, both engaging in witticisms with him and sizing him up.

Kim leaves with the other hostages, and Janeway eventually comes clean.

She is fully conscious, her mind interfacing with the system via hologram.

The clown has no power over her.

The lights dim as the system begins to shut down.

With the hostages safe aboard Voyager, Janeway suggests that the clown wanted to be defeated and that Janeway was the only one to do it.

Because Start Fleet captains do not succumb to fear.

After all, fear exists for one purpose, to be defeated.

The Clown, bathed in darkness, utters a final draft before the episode ends.

Oh, it's so.

Good.

It's such a good ending it.

Reminded me of like really great X-Files episodes, the way that they'll just end in the most shattering way possible, but it's done in the quietest way you can.

So good, so very good.

I, I also loved that that we did get to see a sad clown eventually this month because it it's hard to get a sad clown in horror.

That's true.

They're usually kind of unstoppable and they're, they're sort of above and beyond the notion of this.

But a sad clown is such a beautiful and wonderful thing.

And it is actually, it is a psychological phenomenon that we have looked at.

So psychologists Fisher and Kaufman looked at how comedians would sometimes mask the pain they were having through their performance.

But in doing so and not dealing with their actual issues, it led to emotional out and violent outbursts, harm to others or harm to self, which helped inform the entire nature of what we think about as scary clowns today.

And that is all grounded in the in the idea of performers hiding their pain in order to perform and in using that pain to perform.

Which takes us back to one of the things I originally wanted to pitch for the month, which is the opera Pagliacci.

And the joke that is somebody comes to the doctor says they're depressed.

The doctor says, oh, I have the right thing for you.

You should go see Pagliacci.

And the guy goes I'm Pagliacci because he is the performer and he is sad and last time together with Pagliacci is I will get you all to watch an opera eventually or at least read the comic based on the opera.

Is that the Doctor, when he goes down to perform that opera dresses as Pagliacci?

Why?

Who knows?

Listen, I you know you.

You.

Act like we we we said no David and threw you in the street when you suggested this.

We were both gay and it just didn't end up happening.

There are only something weeks in a.

Month.

It's hard.

Yeah, let's let's just.

Get in front of the the David firing squad real quick before you know we all get murdered for not enjoying opera.

But I will add, opera is not included in the list of media we start every episode.

That's true.

That's true.

That's true.

You got me there.

You got me there.

Yeah.

But I love.

That in the end, we.

Are we are left with not only fear that is defeated, but this sort of moment of sad clowness that I really thought if we were going to talk about clowns and horror, that was the thing that we were kind of missing was the special sauce.

We, we never actually talked about an August clown either, even though we named the month August.

But Oh well, maybe, maybe next, maybe next time we cover clowns, there are only so.

Many weeks in a month.

We can't cover everything.

Yeah, it would be hard, Goose.

Too electric?

Boogaloo.

Similarly, it would be.

Hard to find it a goose clown because the goose clown is like the normal person who gets hit by the face by the pie.

They would never be the murderer clown.

Like wait, we could do.

A tree House of horror focusing on Krusty.

There you go.

There you go.

OK, well and that would be?

A super short episode because it would only be like 10 minutes.

File it away, Tyler.

Add it to.

The list.

Add it to the list.

Got it.

Yeah, I I think this is a great ending.

I love that little draft to end us on.

I also love that Janeway showing up is basically the equivalent of Superman showing up.

Just like, OK, play time's over.

I'm here to fuck your shit up, clown.

And I love that she does it by saying that Starfleet captains do not succumb to fear.

Yeah, like, that's so badass.

But it also is like, a little silly, which I think is fine.

That's Star Trek.

Star Trek is badass sometimes, a little silly a lot of the time, but they all kind of intermingle.

Yeah.

And I I think you could.

Give that line to Picard, I think.

You could give that line to Cisco, I think.

You could give that line to Ansem.

I think any captain would deliver that line incredibly well and incredibly powerful, which is why it does work, even though I think if you see on the page it is a little goofy and silly.

Mm hmm.

But.

That's what Starfleet captains.

Are And that's part of why everyone respects them, yeah.

And I think that's great.

If I were in charge of Starfleet, I would stop investing in all our technologies and I would just invest in like better caffeine for captains.

Never let them sleep and just make them go all the time because they fix shit.

Everyone else breaks shit.

Harry Kim breaks shit.

Janeway fixes shit.

David, weren't you kind of the.

Person that fixes shit for your old job, sure.

I was for a little while, well.

Maybe, maybe burning them out with nothing but coffee and keeping them awake.

I'll taste saving.

Saving the Enterprises is the best idea.

Jane Way loves herself a.

Cup of coffee, though.

There's coffee in that nebula.

A famous Jane way lie.

Wait, really?

Yes.

That's real.

I thought that was immune.

Oh.

God, I have to.

I'm watching.

The show, when we're done well, how do we feel about The Thaw in terms of horror and queerness after our conversation?

Any other final thoughts for the episode as a whole?

I think it's pretty obvious that I love this, but one thing that we didn't really have a chance to talk about was the makeup for the clowns and the troops, because I think that it all really, really worked.

Like the way that the clown like his face is blocked.

It's so interesting because like, it's clearly like the clowning for this other culture that we don't know anything about.

Still has like a, a very like a, a flat face with makeup, but it doesn't look like any of our normal clowns that I really liked.

I also loved how you could see that same like nose, forehead, Ridge on the clown as well as several of the other like big troop actors that we see several times.

And I thought that was a really fun, smart addition.

Like they didn't need to do that, but it was a really great touch.

Yeah.

And.

I think the the thing that calls to question really is like, oh, this this civilization that burned itself out, probably from fossil fuels or whatever.

They had clowning like they they had clowns.

And so you have to create a clown but also make it alien.

It was it was like a it was like a great drag race challenge, like clown but also alien.

Yeah, OK, but works.

I think we've just created more world building than the writers of this episode put into the episode.

The aliens don't even have a name.

The planet doesn't even have a name.

This is the only time we ever see them, apparently.

Yeah, yeah, I looked in the Star Trek wikis.

Ah, but you know the.

Clown comes back.

He does.

He comes back.

Yes, on.

The Star Trek Lower Decks episode 2 VIX, which is a send up of all of the things that happened in Voyager.

They misfire the Hollow.

The holodeck, safety protocols and all sorts of baddies from Star Trek Voyager are created in holographic form, including the clown.

Incredible.

And it is a.

Michael McKean come back to voice it is a sight gag only the.

Only voice that does come back was from that gimmicks episode that barely mentioned earlier.

The husband of the OR the sorry the the man who Janeway wanted to stoop where Janeway deleted his wife.

It was a hologram and he's yelling where's my wife?

That is the only person who is.

It was a spoken line from the Janeway.

Deleted.

A wife?

Yeah, delete the wife.

Another.

Famous Janewayism I'm going to have to like.

David, you're going to have to give me a guide or merely and IA guide for what Star Trek Voyager episodes to watch and which ones to skip.

OK, OK, fair enough.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you're only going to watch one other one, you should just go straight to Bride of Chaotica, where Janeway has to pretend to be in a black and white serial acting against a hologram who has come to life in the sentient.

Feel like it happens a lot.

In.

Like 90s Star Trek.

Yeah, I would.

I, I if.

Again, if I was in charge of Starfleet, I would like disable the holodeck.

Any benefits to mental health are being dragged down by the fact that this thing is always trying to kill you.

Just always trying to kill.

Hey.

People.

Play in the holodecks with the safeties off.

They do.

It's just like, their fault, yeah.

Yeah, that's their own damn fault.

Starfleet Lees to make sure if you go that safety stays on.

Yeah, Cave diving?

No.

That's your.

Fault.

It's your own damn fault.

Wow.

Incredible, incredible.

I but I loved this episode.

I'm really glad we got to include it for the month.

I do think it's super fucking queer.

None of our conversation made me feel like it was less queer.

And I don't.

I already kind of felt like I was on the ceiling, so I didn't, I didn't go any further from it, but I was already up here and I'm happy about being here.

Yeah, me too.

I don't think we.

Talked about it enough, but this, the vibes here are so queer in ways that are difficult to pin down or explain.

I promise if you watch it, you're like, oh, that's camp.

That's gay.

We're here.

Yeah, the.

Only pushback that could be that merrily is that if I was pinned down by the executioner, I could point out where it was gay.

I mean the executioner.

Was associated with a log yeah the episode starts with two men playing with a phallic instrument together and they're.

Making too much noise.

They are making too much noise.

They are making too much noise.

Oh my God.

Truly and honestly, what a.

What a wild journey.

What a wild journey.

Well, August.

Wow.

Yeah, but that's a wrap on.

August, everybody.

Bye bye clowns and thank you all so much for listening to this episode.

Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

We've got three tickets to the Delta Quadrant Symphony Orchestra and you're invited.

One of us can't go though, because we only do have three tickets.

You can find us traveling through space and Instagram on Blue Sky at Fear Coded Pod this podcast.

Is a proud part of the Glitter Jaw Queer Podcast collective.

If you'd like to listen to more queer media podcast, you can check out the full roster of Glitter Jaw shows at glitterjaw.com and a couple of announcements as we roll into the next couple months.

First and foremost, we are sick of all of these clowns.

I have clown sickness and the only cure is less clowns.

So we are going to blow the circuit stunt and get lost at September with a month of nautical horror, but also for a glimpse beyond the water's edge.

We want to let all of you know that this October we will be celebrating Fangs and Widow's Peaks as we cover Dracula all month long, which will include the 1897 novel Dracula by Bram Stroker.

It is not a short text, so just in case you wanted to read it with us, we wanted to give you plenty of runway to be aware of that in advance if you'd like to read it yourself for our conversation.

But first, raise the sails, pull the jib, and come about as we start lost at sea timber with the totally normal cruise aboard the movie Ghost Ship.

But for now, we will simply say goodbye.

The.