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Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions, we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know we need. This is the CIRB order. I'm expected to say stand down I expected to direct you to go back to work. I expected to end this strike. Not now! I stated pretty clearly when this strike would end. I said it clearly then and I will say it clearly now. This strike will end when we get a collective agreement that works for our Netherlands. Well, you heard it there. That was QP President Mark Hancock tearing up a back to work order and promising to strike until they got a deal. And as of this morning, August the 19th, the flight attendant did in fact get a tentative deal from Air Canada. Labor journalist Kim Siever joined us in the studio yesterday before this latest development to fill us in on what exactly led to the strike. what assumptions the employers were likely operating under, and his predictions on what might come next. Now, we don't know the details of the deal just yet. We don't know what the workers will think of it. We do know that watching a union defy unconstitutional back-to-work orders felt really fucking good. It clearly took the bosses at Air Canada by surprise, and it hopefully set a precedent for negotiations to come. Listen in as we learn the details on how workers at the Air Canada component of CUPE got to this point and what the moment could mean for the larger Canadian labor movement. Welcome to the studio, Kim. Can you introduce yourself before we get talking? Sure. My name is Kim Siever. I am a labor journalist with the Alberta Worker, which is an independent media startup that I founded about five and a half years ago. and a perfect person to talk to about this Air Canada work stoppage, work action strike. You wrote an article about this before they even took a strike vote. So I was hoping you'd help set the stage here for how the workers in Air Canada got to this point. And then of course, we'll talk about what everybody is deeming a historic moment perhaps or the makings of one. know, the tearing up of back to work order. But let's see, what is this grievance? What are the grievances that the workers have? Honestly, it comes down to two main things, wages and unpaid labor. So the workers got in their last contract, which was signed back in 2015. And technically it's three contracts. keep seeing people say that they signed 10-year contract, but it's technically three back-to-back They got two percent in each year over the last ten years in those three years two contracts which gave them a combined increase about 19 and a half percent when you Take into consideration compounding increases, you so two percent on top of two percent on top of two percent or two percent so that That adds up to 18 % or 19.5 % once you compound it all together. But inflation during the same period was over 27%. So they ended up behind by about 8 percentage points in real wages, which is wages adjusted for inflation. So they're sitting behind. For the top step in the wage grid, so basically the most anybody can make, that's gone up by about $3. in the last 10 years. puts it into perspective. Exactly. The workers were told, asked to take a wage cut of $10,000 several years ago. They still haven't been paid that money back. It was supposed to be temporary, but you know how employers grow. We'll give you three, like in Alberta, when the NDP were in power, they gave pretty much all the public servants. all the public sector workers wage freezes during the entire contract. And then we still haven't recovered from those wages, right? And so they always, employers always do this to the workers. They always want to make them concede on things. Sometimes they'll tell them it's temporary, but then they never make it back. So they're still trying to make it back on these 2 % increases, this $10,000 wage cut, all these other things. And then on the... topic of unpaid labor. What a lot of people don't realize that is very common in the industry for flight attendants to be paid block to block block. Basically when the when the airplane is moving. So as soon as it starts to leave the gate, and then as soon as it stops at the gate, anything in those two periods, that's what they get paid for. I'm just laughing because, know, anyone who's flown into Pearson knows you can sit on that plane for quite some time before you can disembark, right? So that can be a lot of time with them having almost no control over how much time that could possibly be. Exactly. Yeah, I flew with WestJet, but back in November, I went to Edmonton. And because I have a disability, I'm able to get on the plane early on at the beginning. And there are a few people ahead of me who were in wheelchairs getting onto the plane. Those were flight attendants pushing them onto the plane. They didn't get paid for that. When they're welcoming everybody in, they don't get paid for that. When they're going along, closing all the doors over the overhead bins, they don't get paid for that. If they're helping somebody try to get their carry-on into the overhead bin, they don't get paid for that. When they're doing their safety spiel, as long as the plane's not moving, if they're still refueling in a wetter burials. They don't get paid for that. If there is some delay of some sort that they have to sit on the runway, don't get paid for that. If there's an emergency, they don't get paid for that. Cause the plane's not moving. So all these sorts of things. then that they have to come in and sit in a, like an orientation meeting, talking about this flight, what's to expect, all the logistics. don't get paid for that. So there's a lot of things that they do that they don't get paid for. that's. Basically, it comes down to wages and unpaid labor. I just took like 10 minutes to go over that. Now it was only about five, but you know what? It's really reminiscent of Cup W. Now they're kind of in a situation that we might not have enough time to really give a clear update on. But back when they were ordered back to work and that was largely the issues there was this promise of delayed wage increases. Everyone took it on the chin when there was a whatever that lockdown was at the onset of COVID, right? A lot of workers were asked to take a pay cut or a freeze or, you know, minuscule increases with this feigned but unwritten promise. And then it didn't realize. as well as the idea of just continuing to add on tasks for postal carriers, letter carriers, more and more commercial mail, you know, that Canada Post is banking on, but they're not getting paid really much more to deliver it. So it's part of this trend of forcing more and more unpaid labor and not keeping up with inflation. I think folks are aghast when they hear about how much unpaid labour there is, but sometimes the wage increases are harder for the public to get behind, right? That selling point that like not keeping up with inflation is in fact a pay cut doesn't always resonate with everybody else, right? Because they are kind of sitting in the same boat. They probably maybe don't do a whole lot of unpaid labour, but they sure aren't getting wage increases. Yeah, and there are probably a lot of women seem to be supporting these workers standing up for unpaid labor because they themselves perform a lot of unpaid labor throughout the day. Well, that gender disparity is seen in the way Air Canada negotiates with its workers as well. I mean, they settled with the pilots. We see this like this is common in the public sector as well with with cops and the firefighters and whatnot. yeah, female dominated. occupations tend to face this kind of hardball negotiations. So they voted to strike, right? What was the percentage there? Yeah, just before I get into that, you brought up a really important point about the postal workers having more work to do. I was just reading an article, was either yesterday or today. about this very thing regarding flight attendants is that they too, they're able to put more passengers in per plane, whether that's lengthening or reducing leg room or whatever it is that they're doing. They're able to get more passengers in per plane, but they have reduced the number of flight attendants, the size of the crew on planes as well. what they were able, what they used to have to have four crew members for, for example, they now, you have three crew members for. So they're having more passengers and fewer and smaller crews to work with those passengers. So it's the same thing with these flight attendants as well, right? They're more overworked, but they're not getting paid in ways that they should to make up for that. Have they attempted to put that in the collective bargaining agreement or is that a concession they had to make, those smaller crew sizes? How did they get there? QP doesn't use open bargaining. So I haven't been able to see any copies of the proposals. So I'm just trying to piece things together in news reports that I've seen. So I actually haven't seen anything that confirms whether that's something that they're bargaining for or not. It's like that's, it's so tough. Some of the things that capital and the corporations are coming up with to increase their profits, you've almost got to get ahead of in the collective bargaining agreement. And quite often some of those catches or adjustments to new awful trends in labor, they're left on the cutting room floor, right? Because they just drive such a hard bargain, the employers, right? And they don't negotiate fairly. up until now, many of the unions have been trying to make as many concessions as possible without totally screwing over their workers, right? When you hear how many concessions Cup W made, to try to get a deal and over the years have done, you know, gone without a real contract. I'm feeling the same a lot with the flight attendants here at Air Canada. Have you spoken to any of the, I tried to get one of the 10,000 QP Air Canada component workers on, but it was a bit short notice. Have you spoken to any in the time that you wrote that article and updated it? I haven't, no. I'm not sure if I know anybody who works for Canada as a flight attendant. On Saturday, I had to pick up my children from the airport. They came in on a WestJet flight. But as we were driving away from the terminal, we happened to see the picket line. So opened up my sunroof and honked my horn and raised my fist in solidarity with the striking workers. I was just going to say back to your original question about what the strike vote was like. is it was they helped they announced the the results on the 5th of August so about almost two weeks ago as of this recording and it came back with 99.7 percent so if you route you could round it up to 100 percent especially since they represent about 10 000 flight attendants so like that's not even 100 people who didn't vote in favor that is a solid yes that is the trend too that i am seeing in Canadian labour, like when folks are ready to strike, they're ready to strike. And clearly we're seeing this because, you know, they've defied that back to work order that I think almost all federal workers, unionized workers, are expecting at this point. Like, surely they all go into negotiations knowing that this is a likely outcome. The Liberals have made a history of it. And the conservatives, as you said, I think in a tweet today, like they're both anti-worker. need not discriminate, but there are some people out there that are rightfully upset with Carney, but in a way that they're implying that, know, Trudeau wouldn't have done this. And I feel like, I know we have short-term memory as an electoral electorate, but come on. Like how long ago were the posties ordered back to work and then you reminded me of the the dock workers and I had forgotten about that one twice twice so Yeah, I thought maybe as we go through this discussion that was part of like correcting some of the bad takes out there that you know Carney is I think much worse than Trudeau, but this is just part and parcel of How the liberals have been treating their federal workers? Yeah, Carney hasn't been in for nine years yet. So give him some time. I'm sure he'll be just as bad as Chudo. No, I don't know. He's winning. I mean, if we're cheering for conservatives over here, which we're not. But the response has been a little bit different in the lots to complain about, perhaps the lack of solidarity that existed around some of those other back to work orders. Right. That's very frustrating. I'm sure for a lot of people because the rights of strike, know, this is preaching to the choir, a to the audience, but it's really all you have. Absolutely. It's the like tools down strikes. I don't care if they're legal or not. Like withdrawing your labor is almost all you've got. Right. And if you're a lot of things are hinging on labor, holding the key to change. You can't give up the right to strike no matter what the consequences are. think, you know, and it's easy for me to say that I'm not facing arrest by making that challenge, right? But I think my tweet the other day was if you're a labor leader in this day and age where we see like fascism, I mean, whether folks want that label, it's official or not, but the rise of fascism, attack on workers and like a laundry list of things that we need to be acting on, those not worth their salt, like not will. willing to be arrested for defying orders. think maybe just need to step down, maybe just, you know, take a rest because like this push from the federal government, it's coming from the private sector as well. And, but I think we're kind of seeing them take a stand here. Do you want to tell us about what the response has been like? So I keep jumping around the timeline, but I'm sure my audience is used to that. So they held a strike vote and it was overwhelmingly a yes. This is back in October 5th. Air Canada, what was their response to that and the federal government? Well, right after the strike vote, there wasn't really much of response other than the fact that they're just ignoring it. And I mean, typically, and this is what I said in my article at the beginning of the month is that If a majority of the workers vote to strike, the bargaining committee could take those results back to the bargaining table and use it as leverage to try and convince the employer to make some more concessions. That didn't work, obviously, because they ended up giving their 72-hour strike notice and a few hours later, Air Canada gave their 72-hour lockout notice. They locked them out, right? Because they know the liberals will order them back to work. Yeah, I just like they did with the rail workers, just like they did with the dock workers twice, just like they did with it. CUPW twice. You know, it's of course they're going to and every time the liberals do that, it tells employers, oh, we just got to wait it out. Drag things on as long as we can wait for the workers to go on strike and then we'll just get the government to do our work for us. OK, so. the liberals do as expected, right? Then they order those workers back to work or rather the Canadian industrial, my acronyms, the Canadian industrial relations board, we call it the labor board. That's what's easier for me to remember. They issue an order back to work. And if you haven't seen it already, I'll link it as well. There is a video that's circulating, cause it's stirring up emotions for folks of CUPI national president ripping up the order in front of a bunch of cheering workers and promising that the only way that those workers were going back to work would be with a collective bargaining agreement that they vote for. What'd you think of all that? Yeah, I have a few thoughts. I'm sure you do. So the strike took effect on Saturday, like early morning. like two o'clock in the morning or something like that. Patty Hadu, who is the jobs minister, the federal jobs minister. Not the labor minister. Yeah. She she had posted an update on her Twitter account saying that they are not they they weren't going to get involved right away, that they were going to try and wait for the parties to negotiate things. So this is on Friday. The strike happened on Saturday and within seven hours of the strike starting. she had issued her directive to the Relations Board to implement a body stop the strike and then lock out and implement binding arbitration. Well, first of all, Air Canada was expecting the workers to stop their strike because there's impending binding arbitration. That binding arbitration hadn't stopped yet. So the union's first response was, no. In fact, what they said before the binding arbitration even happened, They said, no, this strike is going to stop when we say it stops. And that should be in the warning to the federal government, the Industrial Relations Board and Air Canada. But no, the Relations Board issued their work stop order. And like you said, they came back in response and ripped up the agreement. And there was one journalist who asked, the president of QB, Mark something, I can't remember what his last name is, and asked him, what if you have to go to jail over this? And he said, so be it. And so the workers and the union are standing together and insistent that they're only gonna step down for one thing, like you said, that's for a negotiated agreement, not one that's forced on them from the federal government. And it's been really interesting to see the support for the workers. The support started coming in like middle of last week once they issued their 72-hour strike notice. I saw unions from all over the place, AUPE, which is the largest public sector union here in Alberta, CUPE, course, UPW, Unifor, the Canadian Labor Congress, Teamsters, lots of, I saw, I saw solidarity statements from all sorts of places. And then when they went on strike, workers from various unions were showing up in solidarity on the picket lines throughout the country. And then there was an emergency meeting that the Canadian Labour Congress held in response to U.P.'s insistence that they weren't going back to work until they were ready. Yes. I mean, all the language they use around that, they wanted to make a real statement, emergency meeting, Canada's union leaders, like all of them, you know, like that's what is implied. And that had real weight to it, as did the statement itself. And it started off, tell you, it's linked in, in the show notes for folks to read it verbatim. But for me, it started off a bit weak, right? We're going to demand this of Carney. And I was like, oh, of course. Yes, of course. I really like to withdraw the back to work orders and to stop using them. But this is a demand that had been made of Carney and his predecessor many, many times, and no one was keeping that. But it's more what they promised to do should that not happen and should legal action be taken. They kind of drew two lines there. We're gonna do this, they're going to, you know, stock the legal fund and the strike fund, help raise money. They're going to help mobilize folks by, you know, disseminating picket line info and, using their resources to mobilize as many people as possible around the workers. And then, like I said, the other line in the sand and the possibility that's looming is legal action against the workers and the union leaders, which you referenced there. And they say if that happens, they will take extra steps. We're not exactly clear what they will be, but it's a promised escalation for sure. Yeah, what do you think of the statement coming out of the CLC who we have every reason to critique before this, right? So what's going on here? Yeah, honestly, I'm extremely surprised. I'm extremely surprised on two fronts. The first CPE's response. I haven't seen that before. I didn't see it from the postal workers. I didn't see it from the teamsters. I didn't see it from the dock workers. They're really taking a huge stance. They're willing to take this onto them. Luckily, my understanding is that for illegal strikes, there's generally fines, but that generally goes to the union and not necessarily to the workers themselves, which is good because then it's... insulates the workers from having direct punishment for these things. So that's good. I'm sure QP has a lot of money, but if the Canadian Labor Congress is going to raise funds to help them as well, that's awesome. And that $10,000 fine is some of the, is the weapon that the federal government has to force unions to do what they want them to. But if that's not going to have any impact, then the federal government is going to run out of options. If they've already made striking illegal by issuing the work stoppage. Right. And so, well, it as be a wildcat strike, because if it's going to be illegal anyhow, you might as well just go right up, do the whole thing altogether. Yeah. That reminds me of the discussion that the larger discussion of the recognition and legalization of unions came with all of these fucking guidelines that make them less effective. it's, you know, that's why tenant unions have such promise because they're, you know, unregulated and they can go on a rent strike and there's, you know, there's just other possibilities for them. But this seems to be something else. this, what do you think is setting this apart from the other work stoppages? Why are we seeing this kind of response from the CLC and largely, you know, other unions, you know, we saw ETO, which is the elementary teachers here in Ontario, like Pearson Airport was chock full of flags. Every union was trying to show face there and make it clear, you know, on social media that they were down there. Laura Walton of the Ontario Federation of Labour, she was down there making a statement, you know, this is, this seems and feels massive. It gives me the same kind of feels as the almost general strike that we had in Ontario, which led to a lot of disappointment, largely at the hands of the CUPI national president. So I'm trying to be optimistic. I'm really trying to be optimistic here that everyone says or does. what they say they're going to do. So what do you think is making this the moment for folks? Why the flight attendants? Why the 10,000 QP Workers for Air Canada? I was going to mention the almost general strike in 2022 in Ontario. And I'm wondering if maybe QP learned their lessons because there was a lot of pushback from Labour when they decided to turn around. Once Doug Ford says he's going to withdraw the notwithstanding clause, they said, OK, but our purpose is done here, where they could have, they were building a movement. They were creating momentum and they could have used that, exploited that momentum to be able to bring about real change beyond just this one specific contract that they were trying to win for teachers and well, education workers. And I'm wondering if maybe QP has learned from that, learned from the feedback they got. and realize we could do something more here because their responses are different. The responses say, so be it. The response saying, no, the strike ends when we say that it ends, right? Those are not, that's not rhetoric that we heard in 2022. And the fact that the Canadian Labor Congress is now getting behind this as well seems to tell me that it's different as well. Because it didn't, it seemed like it was Ontario only in 2022. And I wonder if that's part of it as well. this is a national issue because these workers aren't just in one community. But I think there's, I think there might be something about the things that they're fighting for, like maybe the wages, but I think this, I think the idea of unpaid labor is really resonating with people. Like people are just shocked, even though this has been going on for decades, and not just in Air Canada, but all the airlines. People are just shocked. It seems like people are responding in a way that they've never heard of this before. And they're just shocked that flight attendants, who are primarily women like we talked about, are having to perform labor that they're not being paid for. And there's a huge public outcry. And I wonder if that's fueling some of the actions from the CLC and QP. I would like to believe as well that it's the timing. that I mentioned earlier, this moment of history that we're in more broadly, globally, that at some point there's gonna, we have to take a stand, not just for unpaid labor and inadequate wages and things in the collective bargaining agreement, but against fascism itself. And I think at the end of the statement that the CLC released, they kind of hone in on Carney. And I feel like they're taking a stand against him. They may feel a little bit betrayed. As we know, you know, there was a big push in the last election, anybody but conservatives. We saw a lot of endorsing of liberals to make sure that that happened just for Carney to end up being the most right-wing prime minister. We're not immune from what we're feeling happening in the South of us, you know. We feel it. There's a political shift happening, right? We call it a paradigm shift under Carney. And I'd like to think that this is labor recognizing a good moment to capitalize on themselves, right? So reading that mood that you're talking about and the larger, more defiant mood that is brewing and yeah, just trying to capture as much as that as possible. Yeah. And I think as well, like, This is the seventh time the liberals have done this since they got elected less than 10 years ago. it's more than once every two years. it's almost, we're almost to the point where it's once a year. Like, that the straw that broke the camel's back? Well, I think that's contributing to it. Like in addition to the things we've already said, like they keep doing this. I think this is the first time it's happened to QP under the federal government. And maybe there's say, Okay, this is enough. You've already done this six other times to workers. You just did it less than six months ago to the postal workers. And now you're doing the game. It's enough. We're tired of this. We're tired of you guys using section 107 of the standards acts. And we need you to stop. You need to stop forcing us back to work. You need to stop taking the side of the employers. And I just wonder if that's another component of this difference. Yeah, I absolutely hope that there were discussions beforehand between these unions who've experienced the same tactics, especially that, we have your back. Like, take this moment, make a stand, because we will all benefit from it. Yeah, exactly. Right. The same with bucking those trends. Like, even if you're not a unionized worker, even if you're not a federal employee having to deal with these same negotiators and whatnot, you are subjected to the trends that they create. Oh, yeah, totally. This happened here, like locally, just a few weeks ago, the town of Coaldale, which is just east of Lethbridge, has been trying to drag their feet on negotiations for municipal workers. And they went so far as to go to the Alberta Labor Relations Board and request that they force bonding arbitration onto the workers. So they're trying to do something similar. on a smaller scale because they just saw the federal government do it six times in the last nine years. And now it's seventh time. I mean, luckily Alberta Labor Relations Board shut it down. They said, no, we're not going to do that. But still, it's, you don't have to just work in a federally regulated industry. It can happen to anybody. It can happen to provincial workers. It can happen to municipal workers. It doesn't matter. They're just, and if you take away workers, constitutionally guaranteed freedoms, could be workers anywhere. Because they're going to see what's happening, they're going to use it as precedent, and they're going to try to do it within their environment too. Which is exactly what we do, right? So let them look back at this, see this massive disruption that it's causing, the money that it's going to cost their Canada, is going to far surpass what they could have just paid their fucking employees probably in the end. I mean... They've already canceled hundreds and hundreds of flights, like leaving folks stranded all over the place. Really bad for the brand if they care about that, which I'm sure they do. Latest numbers, you just to give people an idea. That means like 130,000 travelers a day have been disrupted. And you know, the media is reporting on them crying at the booking, the ticket counter, you know, and trying to have us empathize with people going. on airplanes and traveling as opposed to the workers helping them get there. And folks have done a good job of listing the CEO salaries as well. They are obscene. It's incredible. I'll post that and link it. I don't have it handy. But it's the same old story where the money is there. It's a plenty. But these employers also don't want to set trends. It's in the right direction, in our direction. They do not want to give an inch. It's not even employee salary. It's not just employee salaries either. Air Canada posted $1.72 billion in profit last year. Billion. Billion dollars. And not only in addition to the profit, they also purchased, they also purchased 20 million shares last year just to cancel them. So I don't know how much they spent on those 20 million shares, but yeah, they spent a bunch of money for to pay to buy back. over 20 million shares. So they had the money to post almost $2 billion in profit and they had the money to purchase 20 million shares. That's not including the 15 million shares that they purchased in the first half of this year either. It's fun to note that they've had to tell their shareholders that they won't be able to report on their prospective profits. quarter. Because they did not expect the workers to respond. They had a plan, right? We're going to hardball them. We're going to lock them out. They'll go on strike because we've been so awful. Then we will lock them out. It like, no, I quit first. Then, know, Kearney will come to the rescue. Those schmucks will go back to work. Yeah, muahaha. And yeah, we won't we won't even miss a beat. Right. And they They played dirty too. They started canceling flights ahead of time. Mind you, they blamed it on a work to rule. I don't know the details of that, but they were just banking, totally banking on a lack of defiance. And I think they read the room incorrectly. Obviously they did, right? The profits that you're talking about, your Canada posting, that helps eat away at one of the last bad takes that I've been seeing out there. A lot of liberals like little L liberals lamenting on what's going on. I feel for the flight attendants, but elbows up, man. Canada is in an economic crisis. We can't afford a strike or disruption like this. What do you have to say to those people? There's a really easy way to stop this strike. Super easy way to stop the strike. They would stop immediately if this happened. That's to have a negotiated settlement. We're in this position because Air Canada has refused to negotiate in good faith. That's why we're here. There would be no strike if they hadn't negotiated settlement. Sounds so simple. It sounds so simple. So I don't understand why people don't punch up continually, you know, or why they think the health of Air Canada is so detrimental to the country's economic situation, but it's just part of this larger pattern too, that you're just seeing on all fronts and folks should have seen this coming when Carney said, you know, he would prioritize the economy first and foremost, no matter what, he would get certain projects done, no matter what, connect the country and all of that hoopla, no matter what. And you know, some people flagged it for denial of Indigenous rights. Some people flagged it for You know, other things that it could mean giving up, but it also means labor rights. It'll also mean cutting back on federal spending, which is wages as well. And just generally more neoliberal policies that weaken unions. That is absolutely what people who voted for Carney signed up for. It doesn't mean they deserve it, but I think he was pretty forthcoming. Not to mention the fact that he's a fucking banker. like a neoliberal banker with a set of tenants, you know, that he thinks is a formula for success and are now shocked to see him taking these steps. That bothers me is like, I feel like we're not doing our job or they're not listening enough to us, Kim, because surely we rang some warning bells on Carney and expecting this. What do you think happens next? I don't know. I'm really, really. anxious to see what happens next. Anxious in that, like, I can't wait to see what happens next. Because we haven't been here, at least not for a long time anyhow. And so I'm really curious to see how the Liberal government's going to respond to this. And I'm curious if they're going to follow through and start finding people and find them because the Air Canada had asked for the the the ruling to go through the courts and the industrial relations board said they weren't going to do that. They were going to issue it normally and then see how it goes. And then if the buy them, they were going to go through the course with them, which would mean then once that happens, they would be in contempt of a court order. So yeah, it'll be really interesting to see how things progress from here because they're potentially, there could be some people potentially facing jail time in addition to the fines. And then we'll see what happens going from there. Is it bad that I say, like, I hope they do? I mean, they typically don't because they really don't want an escalation. They want a capitulation, but not at all costs. And I think when they're seeing emergency statements coming out of the CLC, I'm thinking that will make them tread a little more cautiously. I don't know what that looks like either. And I've actually been proven wrong so many times. I think we all have, we're like, oh, they wouldn't do that. They wouldn't dare. A hundred years ago, they were they were shooting and killing striking workers. Right. Yeah. So it's not that far away. I mean, it is something that the state is possible of doing. Yeah, I am. I am hoping for the best and we'll keep folks updated on how this escalates labor wise. And this will be a moment to write. Not just will they keep their word? Should there be legal actions? But what will that contract look like in the end? Because sometimes that's the worst part is the deals that get done behind the scenes and we cheer because we find out that they did get an agreement, a contract, and they signed up for it. And it was filled with so many concessions that you may, it makes you wonder whether it was worth it. That's essentially what happened to the education worker. I'm like, I'm traumatized by, we all are by that general strike let down because That was it. Like in the end, many folks will say that that contract wasn't, wasn't much to celebrate and losing that moment of defiance also wasn't worth it. But now I think we're seeing that flame didn't completely die, even though it felt like it did, like at least in Ontario, right? It was a real kind of peak and then let down. And clearly that simmered within labor. So this is how it's manifesting me thinks. I hope so. mean, I'm hopeful. I like that. In that I am hoping that this will happen. I am hopeful that will come about and we'll see some real change, because if we do, if we see that the workers are successful in getting what they wanted out of this, then maybe we'll see in the future when workers say, hey, we're going to we're giving you a 72 hour strike notice. And their employer might come back and say, well, I don't want to happen to me. What happened to your Canada? Yeah. We'll see some honest negotiation. Is that the least we can hope for from you? Can you at least negotiate fairly? No. I have to give it to CUPE. Like they're willing to do something that people haven't been willing to do yet or unions haven't been willing to do yet. So I have to give it to them. And I hope that in the long run, this ends up good for the working class. Absolutely. I'm with you on that and I do appreciate you taking the time to come in and help us understand it a little bit more. I'll link folks back to the Alberta worker, but anything else you'd like to say on the matter? No, no, I don't think so. I think we've touched on a lot of the things I was hoping to cover. And I just hope again that this ends up benefiting these workers specifically, but the broader working class generally as well. Yes, let's make a trend of it, shall we? I hope so. Yes. Thank you, Kim. Thanks, Jess. I appreciate it. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.