[SPEAKER_02]: This is Cynthia Gannoff, and you are listening to the mesmerized podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hey friends, welcome to the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Glad you're here.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just came off the fall break here, and let me just tell you something fall break in Texas?

[SPEAKER_02]: No.

[SPEAKER_02]: It is not fall break.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's nothing fall about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: It couldn't be hotter last week.

[SPEAKER_02]: However, I was my best mom's self.

[SPEAKER_02]: I knocked it out of the ballpark this year.

[SPEAKER_02]: If I do say so myself, we went to the fair.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we had the Fletcher's corn dog and drank the lemonade and saw the butter sculpture and went into that nasty petting zoo area and bought the food things that they don't want and tried to get them to eat out of JB's cup and we did it all.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we did it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then, because I'm just just who I am this year, I'm like, we're going to go to Austin.

[SPEAKER_02]: So we did JB and I went to Austin and saw Kate and went to see world in San Antonio.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where there's some miscalculations on my part because.

[SPEAKER_02]: In my mind, when you go to sea world, you're going to see the sea lion show, which we did in those little otters.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, cutest can be.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then you're going to go to that killer whale orcass show.

[SPEAKER_02]: We used to refer to it a shamu that apparently since shamu ate some people, that is no longer the case.

[SPEAKER_02]: We just refer to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: as the workers show where the killer whales and no longer are the employees in the water with them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we did that.

[SPEAKER_02]: We saw the shows.

[SPEAKER_02]: We did it all.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they put in these big old rides now.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, JB is go bigger, go home.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that is how he lives life.

[SPEAKER_02]: And most of the time I feel like he's going big and I'm going home.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, there we were, the huge rides, well, in your 20s, 30s, 40s, you knock yourselves out, you do those big rides if you want to, but in your 50s, no, I'm no longer constructed that way, and so that became a problem.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I did what you also don't do in your 30s and 40s when you're parenting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I took him up to each of those big rides, he wanted to ride, and I walked through the line with him, and then I put him on the ride with strangers.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I don't feel bad about it either.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll have you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I tried to find nice strangers and so the old little judgmental maybe that I looked for the teenage girls.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, hey, can he ride with you?

[SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, oh, okay, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it was awkward for them and me, but the worst part is then I had to walk back down the stairs, you know, for the riding and leave.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's like the walk of shame.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now I will not ride the ride.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, and then I'd go to the end and meet him at the end and then we'd go to the next ride [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I'd like to give a shout out to Jennifer and all the teenage girls that spent time with my son, but yeah, that's what we did.

[SPEAKER_02]: We had a great time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I got the steps in between the state fair, the sea world.

[SPEAKER_02]: We got to spend time with Kate.

[SPEAKER_02]: We came back, went to Nate for Gatsy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Holy cow was he hilarious.

[SPEAKER_02]: So no, we really did it at last week.

[SPEAKER_02]: So this week I'm pretty much shut down.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, because I'm out of commission.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was a lot of activity.

[SPEAKER_02]: But boy, did we have fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: So back at it here.

[SPEAKER_02]: So grateful that you are with me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And listen, we have Lisa Turkers on today.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love Lisa and she has a really necessary.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, important word, talking through divorce and Joel is with her.

[SPEAKER_02]: He works for her ministry and he's at theologian and he has an incredible biblical perspective on divorce that walks hand in hand with Lisa's and Lisa's experience of going through an unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I will tell you, Lisa was on the road when we taped this.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's in a different location than I am and the different location in Joel.

[SPEAKER_02]: And she had terrible service.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so we had some issues with her disconnecting at the end we lost Lisa.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, she doesn't get say goodbye, but she sends her love and says goodbye, and thank you.

[SPEAKER_02]: She wanted to try to retake it later, and we just couldn't make schedules fit, and I knew it didn't matter.

[SPEAKER_02]: Lisa is there for three-fourths of the conversation, and then we lose her at some point.

[SPEAKER_02]: So if her audio is a little off, you'll know why, but this is so important, and I'm so thankful that we got the chance to talk with John, Lisa, that I want you to hear this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can I ask you to please consider sharing this with friends, family members, people that you know, that have either gone through a divorce, maybe aren't a process of one, or walking others through a divorce?

[SPEAKER_02]: I think this is something that is important.

[SPEAKER_02]: This is important word, so if you would share it with your friends and family, it means so much to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, with all of that being said, let's kick it off with Lisa and Joel.

[SPEAKER_02]: Joel and Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being here today.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, it's an honor to be with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, appreciate it, Cynthia.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I always love visiting with you, Lisa, I interviewed you a couple of times before.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if I've ever said this and if I have, you probably don't remember either way, but I just think you need to know, I'm not sure anybody out there has better titles to their books.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's coming from a girl who just had to title her second book and it's so hard, and I'm sitting here looking at your book titles, it's not supposed to be this way.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to trust you, but I don't.

[SPEAKER_02]: good boundaries, bad boundaries for giving what you can't forget and then surviving an unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, my goodness, like nailing it on the titles of what you want people to know.

[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, just want to say that like great titles.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it takes a lot of hard work.

[SPEAKER_01]: They don't just pop into my head.

[SPEAKER_01]: it's one of those things that we do a lot of brainstorming, it takes several people to be very intentional about thinking them up.

[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they're really good.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so listen, today we're going to talk about divorce and I was telling Joel at least up before you jumped on here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was saying that I felt like this is a topic that maybe as believers we don't cover well or don't [SPEAKER_02]: Or we are all scared maybe to touch it or we're not sure exactly where we stand on it and I love the minute I saw it I was like, oh yeah, we're gonna talk about this because this is so good and so can we just kick it off by just saying kind of What at least in less someone's been on a rock they know who you are but Joel would you even just tell us kind of what you're what your position is and the ministry and what you're gonna kind of speak into today [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_00]: So I get to serve as director of theology and research at Proverbs 31 Ministries.

[SPEAKER_00]: I've known Lisa now for a while over a decade and I've been on the team at Proverbs for we're going on 10 years now, which is kind of wild.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, [SPEAKER_00]: I like to joke with our team with Lisa.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think somehow I con myself into the very best job in the entire world because I get to study scripture.

[SPEAKER_00]: I get to study the Bible and I get to study with some of the most incredible gals and we got a couple of guys in the ministry as well which is awesome and we just my favorite days are theology study days and so that's what I get to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: You can summarize all of that to say that I'm a Bible nerd.

[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, if we're gonna be known for something, let it be that, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, well, okay, we're gonna talk, let's just hit it, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, out of the start, Lisa, out of the gate, people should know, probably know people, if they don't follow you, they need to be following you, but there's been some tumultuous years in there, hence the books, the names, the books, the ministry that you've created from the heart.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just talk to us, like, let's start at the beginning, this surviving and unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that you're saying it was unwanted.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was us.

[SPEAKER_02]: anything ever in the plan.

[SPEAKER_02]: Just talk to us a little bit and start us off with that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I [SPEAKER_01]: wanted with all of my heart to be married for the rest of my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to have a legacy of a family that stayed together.

[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when my kids were little, I used to tuck them into bed and if they would hear about another friend's parents that we're getting a divorce, I remember even saying to them, you don't ever have to worry about that with mommy and daddy, like we're [SPEAKER_01]: you know, we're very, very committed.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that was such a well-intentioned promise to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I believed it with all of my heart until one day, it all came crashing down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember having to face the reality that it takes two people to want a marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes two people to participate and help the ways to have a healthy marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it takes two people being fully committed to Christ and to God's intention for marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I suddenly became the one person doing that.

[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I wanted with all of my heart for the marriage to get to say together, even to the point of risking my own health to do so.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there were noble reasons for that, but I also think there were some unhealthy reasons for that on my part.

[SPEAKER_01]: Joel was with me throughout that season.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was years and years and years of me trying for giving giving second chances third chances for chances fifth chances.

[SPEAKER_01]: doing crazy amounts of intensive therapy work, and eventually I had to accept a very harsh reality, and it's not a reality that I wanted, but at that point I had no other choice, and I didn't walk away, but I did accept that harsh reality, and suddenly I was faced with a very unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: And Joel, I'm so glad to hear because I have, I promise I have some questions, I think we're all wondering about theologically speaking, but let me ask you one other thing, Lisa, before we get there.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love in the book you talk about this misguided messages that Christian women receive and related to being a godly wife.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you may, you kind of differentiated a difficult marriage versus a destructive marriage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, wow, that's a great way to look at things, because I think anyone who's been married to some degree has had difficulties in the marriage, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like putting two lives together like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: There's difficulties, there's differences.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I love that you speak into that destructive, versus difficult marriages.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's different when you're looking in the eye of a divorce, and one of divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: So talk to us a little bit about that.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, this comes straight from my good friend, Leslie Bernick, and she really taught me that there is a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage, a difficult marriage is where you are having a hardship that's identified, and it's a good reason to go to counseling, but both people have the humble posture of being willing to work on that marriage, both people.

[SPEAKER_01]: are very committed to honoring God through the process, and in essence, even if you disagree with your partner, you're still honoring the partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: A destructive marriage comes when one partner no longer has the best interest of the other partner in mind.

[SPEAKER_01]: It, when one partner becomes extremely selfish, extremely self-focused, and starts doing things that not just, they dishonor God, but not just dishonor God, but they start to be emotionally and potentially even physically and sometimes sexually destructive, caring, great risk for the partner.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's where we've got to really pay attention and not elevate the institution of marriage over the individual image bears of Christ.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, please, when I hear that, I don't want you to hear that the institution of marriage is not sacred.

[SPEAKER_01]: It is sacred.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's important.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's crucial.

[SPEAKER_01]: But we don't want to allow the destruction of a faithful image bear of Christ who is trying to honor God in their marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: We cannot risk that person's very life in order to preserve the marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know Joel, you have a lot more that you could even say about this, but.

[SPEAKER_01]: I feel very passionate.

[SPEAKER_01]: In my story, I not only suffered great heartbreak emotionally, but it took such a physical toll on my body that in the summer of 2016 after going through [SPEAKER_01]: months of not knowing whether my husband, my then husband was going to want me or not want me, we were going back and forth, we were doing intensive therapy.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wound up in the hospital, my colon twisted.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was directly related to the emotional trauma that I was going through.

[SPEAKER_01]: I wound up having to have surgery and the doctors were not sure that they could save my life.

[SPEAKER_01]: It had cut the blood flow off inside of me and even some of the test results that came back said that my body was already in a state where it was dying inside.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I remember a counselor looking at me and saying, Lisa, it's always going to be your choice to stay or to go.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I do want you to know that this has become such a destructive marriage that if you stay, I don't think that you will be alive any year from now.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think it's wise to minimize the physical realities of what can happen to someone when the emotional trauma is so severe that it's taking a toll.

[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a serious toll and I just don't want us to ever minimize that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, you kind of reference this, but Joel, I read in the book where it said when we elevate marriage itself above the dignity and safety of the image bears and marriage, we actually dishonor the picture of marriage that Christ puts on display with a love for his bride.

[SPEAKER_02]: So talk to us about that.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I kind of want to start by just saying that one of the things that we're so passionate about at Proverbs and one of the things that Lisa has really encouraged me in over the last decade is this phrase, I think it's so important, a theology that is unlivable is absolutely unhelpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: at theology that it's unlabelable is absolutely unhelpful.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to start like our conversation on theology with kind of the origin story of one of the hardest days of ministry for me.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa and I, we do life together.

[SPEAKER_00]: My kids call her auntie Lisa.

[SPEAKER_00]: They literally fish at her pond.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like they've got this little spot by the house.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so like literally do life together.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the hardest day for me, one of the hardest days was coming to a great table that we do these amazing theology study days at, and our mutual friend Leah was with us, and Leah's really like our boss, right, Lisa, both you and I, it's boss in very real ways.

[SPEAKER_00]: But sit there, and Lisa had to walk out.

[SPEAKER_00]: She's the scheduling boss.

[SPEAKER_00]: Lisa walked out, and when she walked out, her eyes were red.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I could tell that the tears had stopped a long time ago, but you could just feel the weight of what had been going on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And she sat at that table and she looked at me starting the face and she said, Joel, what does God say about divorce?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I began to spot out like, well, theologically, here's some thoughts and I did, you know, and then you kind of stop me and you said, no, Joel, what do you think the Bible is saying based off of all these ideas, like, what does the scriptures teach about this?

[SPEAKER_00]: And, and that was a moment where theoretical theology, [SPEAKER_00]: collided with real life-lip theology, and I just want to start with, like, I just recognize that there are so many women that are either facing that, have faced that, or there's a possibility that they will face it at some day, and so I don't want you to hear the theological conversation that we're about to have void of the real sensitivity of the heart of the human heart, and so [SPEAKER_00]: the herd of the human heart.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so when it comes to marriage, we all have words and phrases that we say, and I think sometimes those become kind of like equivalent to the very weight of scripture themselves, but if we were to ask that question, like, where do these words actually come from?

[SPEAKER_00]: Are they from scripture?

[SPEAKER_00]: We'd be like, wait a minute, they're rooted in the Bible somewhere, but there's a context around it.

[SPEAKER_00]: there's an intended meaning for it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And when it comes to marriage, you might have heard the phrase, well, don't you know you made a covenant with God?

[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's what marriages you made a covenant with God.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would just want to bring a little bit of clarification because I think precision really matters in our language.

[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that when you get married, that marriage is a covenant, the Hebrew word is bereath, and it hasn't mind contractual obligations.

[SPEAKER_00]: It was very known in the ancient world.

[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, every covenant had to have two partners, right, a person A person B, but there had to be a witness in a judge, like somebody who said, oh, yeah, we authorize this.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is a true legalizing of this union.

[SPEAKER_00]: In the context of Eden, you have two people brought together Adam and Eve, and they're brought together in covenant marriage, and your covenant is with the other image bearer of God in the witness and under the judicial authority of Yahweh of God Himself.

[SPEAKER_00]: So this is actually a bit more significant because you're not initially having a covenant with God.

[SPEAKER_00]: You're actually having a covenant in the presence of God as judge, which means each individual image bear has to uphold their part of their responsibility, you know, and this is how the ancient world understood it.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if that covenant broke, then there was a judge who witnessed, who saw what it was intended to be, and the love of that judge, the love of our good father, [SPEAKER_00]: is going to protect the innocent and also have a sense of accountability for the one who broke covenant, not in a way to damage them individually as a person but with the intent to stir their conscience that they might come into repentance and be restored into right relationship with God.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so there's this famous statement, you know, that God didn't create man for the Sabbath, [SPEAKER_00]: but the Sabbath for man, the same idea as with marriage, you know, and to echo what Lisa said, for far too long, I think that while meaning, Bible-believing ministers, leaders have elevated the institution of marriage, above and beyond the two image bearers that actually represent that marriage.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is our desire to rightly view the like the marriage covenant that the Lord gave us and we want to honor the Lord in that which means that we want to hold these two individuals to the standard by which they came together in Holy Matcha Moni.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's really, that's really good.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I used to be a lawyer, fun fact.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not really that fun.

[SPEAKER_02]: But even in legal terms, like to have a contract, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You have to have two parties.

[SPEAKER_02]: And if one person breaches the contract, you don't have a valid contract anymore.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so just like even from a legal standpoint, [SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting that anybody, anybody in business, any believer probably would agree with that.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's how a contractual relationship works.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yet when it gets so tangled in the divorce side of this, when we start thinking of it, spiritually.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that you gave us kind of that clarification.

[SPEAKER_02]: Lisa, as a girl, I grew up in church, my whole life, and as a girl who also grew up in church and has known the Lord for so long, there's so many things that we hear, like, you know, I don't believe in divorce, like we've, maybe we've said that, I don't know, there are two sides to every story, I mean, my goodness, I've heard that one, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm million times, I'm, well, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, [SPEAKER_02]: Were there hurdles that you, I mean, of course, but were there hurdles you had to overcome just as a girl who's been in church a long time that aren't even necessarily doctrinal, but just the things that we say we believe is church girl.

[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, you know, you brought up one where there's two sides to every story and when people would say that to me, I would often say, this isn't a spectator sport.

[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we even talking about sides?

[SPEAKER_01]: This is a family down on the field getting decimated and so instead of choosing sides, why don't we why don't we just step in and help the one who's been hurt, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of well-meaning people really want to honor God.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're scared of divorce, and divorce is a really horrific thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes when you don't know what to say, you just pull a clip out of the air.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you say it, thinking maybe this will be the answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: And one of the favorite clips that people like to pull straight from the Bible is from Malachi, Chapter Two, and it says God hates divorce.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I just want to shed a little light and Joel, I'm going to ask you to also help me theologically.

[SPEAKER_01]: But let me just first before we theologically talk about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me share when that was said to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me share with you what I heard.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I heard is not only is your marriage failing, but you, Lisa, are a failure in God's eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you couldn't [SPEAKER_01]: than you are failure and not only does God hate what divorce does to people, but the additional marriage was if you get a divorce, God will hate you.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I know as we sit here today, we can take a step back now and for me, I can see that of course God doesn't hate me.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in the moment where your heart has been shattered, you feel so low and so vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's just not a statement.

[SPEAKER_01]: Someone needs to weaponize against you.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like kicking you while you're already down.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, one of the most important reasons I wanted to write this book alongside Dr.

Joel Munimale and Jim Cress is because [SPEAKER_01]: I want people to have access to correct theology and correct therapy so that these statements aren't weaponized when someone doesn't know what to say and they just say something that's utterly unhelpful.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll get to the theology of the verse in Malachi after two and just a second.

[SPEAKER_01]: But let me just say one other thing, I believe surviving an unwanted divorce is not just for the person who has walked through or is walking through a divorce.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also feel like it's for friends, walking beside someone, it's for family members, walking beside someone facing this and it's also for church leaders and church small group leaders, pastors.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's crucial because we've done the hard and heavy lift.

[SPEAKER_01]: of doing the biblical theology of divorce and unpacking what the Bible actually does say and does not say.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's really crucial.

[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes when people don't know what to say, they either back away from the person totally as if the person who's getting a divorce has some form of leprosy.

[SPEAKER_01]: and it's better to just stay away because we don't want that disease to hop on us, or they'll say something, but they're unsure exactly what to say, so it kind of is reduced down to all pray for you, but I don't know what else to do for you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Prayers are important.

[SPEAKER_01]: but it's also important to give some practical and spiritual help to the one who's been so devastated.

[SPEAKER_01]: So from a theological standpoint now, let's jump to Malachi chapter two.

[SPEAKER_01]: When you read this, in many versions of the Bible, it says, God hates divorce.

[SPEAKER_01]: But Jill, I want you to take us back past the King James version because the King James [SPEAKER_01]: Great theologians have set a better interpretation of the Texas as we look at the direction of the hate.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a key point.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_00]: I like to always joke a little bit about this.

[SPEAKER_00]: If you guys could see me, you'd see that I'm Indian.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you'll know that I'm Indian.

[SPEAKER_00]: But my wife is white, she grew up in the Portland area and one of the things that we did early on in dating is I would show her Bollywood movies and There'd be like these Telugu movies that we'd watch together as family and there'd be this hilarious jokes and this is prior to captions in the whole non yards that we have today and there'd be this hilarious joke, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And my girlfriend at the time, Brett, she would look at me like, people, will you translate that for me?

[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm laughing, he's like, yes, you're gonna die laughing.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is so funny.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I would try to translate a joke from Thelugu into English.

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll know what happens when you try to translate a joke from one language into another.

[SPEAKER_00]: Not funny, funny, no more, exactly.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, there's something beautiful about the original language, the word play, and the poetic kind of imagery that's present.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the Bible that we have today, I want to just be really clear, we can trust these major translations that we have today, the ESV, and the NIB, Lisa, we joke, Lisa loves the NIB.

[SPEAKER_00]: I read from the CSB.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think Jim often reads from the ESV.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so we've got these major translations that we can trust [SPEAKER_00]: and it's important for us to recognize that all translations are being translated from original language and by nature, that's an interpretation.

[SPEAKER_00]: We're all going to have to make some interpretive decisions along the way.

[SPEAKER_00]: And Lisa mentioned it, the King James, the KJV 1611, the New King James Version.

[SPEAKER_00]: made a interpretation decision with Malachi to 16.

[SPEAKER_00]: And if you read those versions, it will say that God hates divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: So the Hebrew word for hate, to shanah, and the question is, what is the object or who's the subject of that verbating?

[SPEAKER_00]: Who's doing the hating?

[SPEAKER_00]: And this is where other ancient manuscripts are super helpful for us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you talk to any Hebrew scholar and you ask them, put up Malachi 2016, the original Masteratic Text to them, which is the original Hebrew language, they would say, whoo, hold up one second.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is gonna take a second.

[SPEAKER_00]: I gotta figure this out.

[SPEAKER_00]: This is hard, you know?

[SPEAKER_00]: And so the Hebrew Bible is translated into Greek, which Lisa, that's referred to as the [SPEAKER_00]: Septuagint nailed it I knew she's gonna get that she's she's a she's a she's a scholar in her own right and Now on nervous it got all sweaty like law school that I was gonna get called on next I'm like I don't know I don't know you're okay, but the next time we do this absolutely you're going to okay, this was the freebie [SPEAKER_00]: The Septuagint is the Hebrew Bible translated into Greek and in some ways are very first commentary on the Hebrew text.

[SPEAKER_00]: And the Septuagint actually brings clarification, not just the Septuagint, but you also have the Latin vulgate.

[SPEAKER_00]: You've got the Targums, you've got all these ancient manuscripts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now some of you are like, whoa Joel, I'm so interested in this.

[SPEAKER_00]: I want to encourage you in surviving an unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's a whole section that we wrote.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I wrote kind of an extended section for my Bible nerd friends that are interested, especially for my pastor friends and ministry leader friends that want to understand the technicalities of the discussion.

[SPEAKER_00]: For our sake, I'm just going to summarize it.

[SPEAKER_00]: The summary is that the King James Version suggested at some point that the hatred of the divorce was God.

[SPEAKER_00]: He was the subject.

[SPEAKER_00]: He is the one who hates divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: But if you look at modern translation today, like Malachi 2016 from the [SPEAKER_00]: Christian standard Bible, it says, if he, the husband hates and divorces his wife, says the Lord God of Israel, he, the husband, covers his garment with injustice, says the Lord of armies.

[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, because of this, watch yourself carefully and don't act treacherously.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so what we find with Malachi to 16 is actually a difference.

[SPEAKER_00]: And some people be like, well, Joel, is that a difference with the distinction?

[SPEAKER_00]: I'll say absolutely it is.

[SPEAKER_00]: a flat statement, God hates divorce would then suggest that God hates both people that were involved in that divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's they're feeling the hatred, they're feeling the the displeasure, but the reality is that there's often a covenant breaker that's what Malachi 26 is saying that there's a person who has broken covenant.

[SPEAKER_00]: And what this is saying is that God's displeasure, his anger, his frustration, his grief, is another word you could use for Shana, his grief, is aimed at the one who broke covenant, because it is damaging the other image bear.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we have to take this verse and let of all the other incredible verses to that scripture that say, hey, there's hope for repentance, there's hope for restoration with the Lord, even if there might not be the possibility of reconciliation.

[SPEAKER_00]: with the other person.

[SPEAKER_00]: There's always the possibility of reconciliation with the Lord.

[SPEAKER_00]: So we want to keep all of that in mind, but also be clear about what this verse is saying and what it's not saying because on the other end, Lisa and I do these retreats called haven't placed where we've had hundreds of women come through.

[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Lisa can talk more about this, but often when we do this teaching, it's like, this was such a weight of a woman's shoulder [SPEAKER_00]: Man, God really displays what really hates me, and to that, I would just say, Sister, God does not hate you.

[SPEAKER_00]: He is not displays with you.

[SPEAKER_00]: He grieves over having to care the weight of such heartache that you never intended and he's with you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that is so helpful and so enlightening.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because the snarky side of me, because I need Joel, like we all need Joel in our ear, the snarky side of me when I think people would say something like that, like God hates divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want to be like, yeah, you know, Eddie also hates pride, he also hates obesity, he also hates, I mean there's a whole lot of things he doesn't like, so let's just add that to the list.

[SPEAKER_02]: It just so happens, the thing you're pointing to is not the thing here at the moment struggling through it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I love that you actually gave a doctoral answer and I wanted to give a snarky answer.

[SPEAKER_02]: that's very helpful.

[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about this for a minute.

[SPEAKER_02]: At least at you, you make the points in the book that there are signs of emotional abuse or manipulation that women might not recognize as valid reasons to leave a marriage.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we can bring Joel and probably on this too because we all think we'll infidelity.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the one.

[SPEAKER_02]: You can get an escape route on that one, sexual infidelity.

[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, so talk to us a little bit about that, both of you if you don't [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say we also have to take a look at physical abuse, emotional abuse that can cause, that's so severe that, you know, that can cause physical harm to someone.

[SPEAKER_01]: We also have to look at sexual abuse.

[SPEAKER_01]: We have to also look at abandonment.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so there's many things at play here and I'll I'll toss to Joel for some of the theological underpinnings of this, but here are some signs.

[SPEAKER_01]: Let me just talk about a few signs here.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of us have heard the term gas lighting.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I want us to keep I want to I want to put this at the very top, okay.

[SPEAKER_01]: love seeks the other person's highest good.

[SPEAKER_01]: Love does not seek to deceive and destroy the other person in the marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when there's gas lighting, which can often happen when one person is hiding something from the other person, [SPEAKER_01]: You're so close in a marriage that you can see things and then when your spouse tells you, you know you did not see that, know you did not hear that, it can start to make you wonder, do I have a skewed view of reality?

[SPEAKER_01]: And the question that I started asking myself when this was happening is, am I crazy?

[SPEAKER_01]: Am I the crazy one?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think anytime someone starts to wonder if they're the crazy one, you can know there is some kind of gaslighting, there's some kind of deception, there's some kind of manipulation involved that's causing harm to the faithful spouse, to the one who's living in truth.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've discovered that sometimes when somebody has something that they wanna hide, the truth is no longer wet lines up with the facts to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do you and I?

[SPEAKER_01]: The truth, there's facts that make up the truth, to someone who's hiding something, the truth to them then becomes whatever protects their their narrative whatever protects their secret whatever protects their addiction whatever protects their fair whatever protects whatever protects whatever protects their bad behavior that suddenly is the truth to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: then in order to justify their behavior, they start to form a narrative that makes them often the perpetrator, the victim.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so they will do whatever they can to destroy the innocent one because they want to have some justification here.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they will make the innocent one seem like you're in a loveless marriage.

[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this woman that I've cheated on, she's never loved me.

[SPEAKER_01]: She criticized me so bad.

[SPEAKER_01]: She spent too much money.

[SPEAKER_01]: She, you know, she, she have all kinds of crazy behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: Now, is it true that sometimes women spend too much money?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, is it true that sometimes as women we can get overly critical, yes?

[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the level I'm talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: Those are marriage difficulties.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm talking about on the level of destruction, where one spouse, the unfaithful spouse has something that they're trying to protect.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a lie and they will then spend the narrative to justify that lie thus making the other person.

[SPEAKER_01]: make them feel crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a huge part of this.

[SPEAKER_01]: So Joel, I know that I want you to talk a little bit about the theological realities, and especially around the word abandonment, because I think that's a really important part.

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I think if you notice all the things at Lisa had kind of sad kind of go back and review them, you'll notice that they kind of fit into categories.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so one of the things I'm going to often say is that the Bible gives us principles, not policy.

[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes we want policy.

[SPEAKER_00]: Like we just want about like able to be always equal to C.

And it would be nice if the Bible is like concordance or an index.

[SPEAKER_00]: And we just like flip to whatever issue we're having today and tells us exactly, but that's not what the Bible is often doing.

[SPEAKER_00]: The Bible is often trying to teach us a 360 degree view of these kind of principles that we ought to live by.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I want to just start with that that we're not going to give you or tell you what to do.

[SPEAKER_00]: but we're going to give you a lot to think about in the process that you can bring it into some wise discernment.

[SPEAKER_00]: But each of these categories, they're three categories.

[SPEAKER_00]: The ancient Israelites, the rabbis, were the teachers of the time that they would kind of funnel each of the things kind of least to set into these three large categories and it's based off of Exodus.

[SPEAKER_00]: Chapter 21, kind of this famous passage, and the three categories are material neglect, so material would be like withholding food, clothing, and shelter.

[SPEAKER_00]: Emotional neglect, I mean this is amazing.

[SPEAKER_00]: You've all heard the famous phrase, sticks and stones, may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.

[SPEAKER_00]: horrible.

[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know who ever decided to make that, but it's like, I think it's like sticks and sounds may may hurt me, but like, and words will always hurt me even more, because you can't see the damage that's happening to your heart, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: And the rabbis had this in mind, so emotional neglect with holding intimacy, conjugal rights, but they also had an entire, uh, [SPEAKER_00]: in mind a kind of cruelty and humiliation.

[SPEAKER_00]: That was present in the last one is physical neglect.

[SPEAKER_00]: So once again, unfaithfulness, adultery, physical abuse.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I just want to just because people, I think, might be interested.

[SPEAKER_00]: Exodus 21 starts in verse 10.

[SPEAKER_00]: It says, if he takes an additional wife, so it's talking about the context, the cultural context of that time, and he's talking about marriage, he must not reduce, look at this.

[SPEAKER_00]: food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife.

[SPEAKER_00]: If he does not do these three things for her, she may leave free of charge without any payment.

[SPEAKER_00]: And then the second thing is, did our 2041, if a man marries a woman, but she becomes displeasing to him, because he finds something indecent about her that Hebrew phrase is very important, or Vark Devar.

[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, once again, people are trying to figure out what that actually means.

[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's connected to that, you know, those first three kind of categories because he finds something indecent about her.

[SPEAKER_00]: He may write her a divorce certificate, handed to her, and send her away from his house.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, all of this to say that the Bible has in mind a process, [SPEAKER_00]: by which to try to encourage the restoration of the marriage of possible, the rabbis would come in, they would do basically the ancient version of therapy sessions, and they try to figure out what's happened, what's gone wrong, is it one of these three areas, how to fix it?

[SPEAKER_00]: But in extreme cases, like what Lisa says and what our friend Leslie Wernick says, when it shifts, from something that is difficult to something that is utterly destructive to that image bear, the rabbis had in mind this idea of a certificate of divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: and that's a certificate of divorce, so actually, while there's a scholar named Dr.

Inston Brewer who's the leading scholar of this topic, he identifies after looking at ancient archaeological kind of fines and certificates that the ancient world around Israel, there was no such thing as a certificate of divorce.

[SPEAKER_00]: But there was one for Israel.

[SPEAKER_00]: So where does that tell us?

[SPEAKER_00]: It tells us that God's heart has always been for his daughters.

[SPEAKER_00]: God's heart has always been for the weak and the vulnerable.

[SPEAKER_00]: And he built in a system of protection for them so that if they were given the certificate of divorce, they could then re-marry.

[SPEAKER_00]: They could then move on with their life.

[SPEAKER_00]: They would actually receive the dowry, the Katuba, that was handed to the husband in the marriage.

[SPEAKER_00]: as even financial security for them, as they tried to figure out the rest of their life.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so again, this is a principle that is at play in the ancient world and Old Testament, and Jesus in Matthew chapter 19, he actually refers to this again, and in his mind, he's thinking about this context.

[SPEAKER_00]: He's thinking about these three areas.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so Joel, this is, I mean, there's so much to this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, and I love the hard work Y'all have put in to kind of help us have a theological understanding as well as the practical side of it from Lisa, as well as having a counseling perspective on it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess the last thing I would say that I would want to ask you about, or maybe what would you want people to know [SPEAKER_02]: And think about when it comes to whether or not we need to forgive the person if we're walking through this ourselves that whole forgiveness component is so hard and or if we're if we're a bystander to it, you know, our our daughter has gone through something really hard and and then wanted to force our best friend or whatever, how does forgiveness play into this.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's crucial for giving this is so crucial in it and in fact Lisa has a book called for giving what you can't forget and I kind of helped bring the theological core into that we were working on that project together and in it we spent over I spent over 2,000 hours, Lisa and I together just studying that topic and she jokes that she would say the majority of that time was trying to find and escape hatch to forgiveness like you know like like what's the one area that I can weaken but you know what we found is it's a command [SPEAKER_00]: Like, that is the command that's given to us.

[SPEAKER_00]: Now, in that forgiveness is actually a gift that has given to us in that it protects our heart from becoming bitter, it protects our heart, from becoming disenfranchised with the world.

[SPEAKER_00]: It actually keeps our heart soft so that we can still experience the hope of the future.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so I would just say that it's really important to remember that forgiveness is two parts.

[SPEAKER_00]: Forgiveness is fact and impact.

[SPEAKER_00]: And so, we learned to forgive the fact of that moment, and then we learned to continually continue to forgive the impact of that as life goes on.

[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that we will learn that the more we embody the through the spirit, relationship to five, our ability to get a little bit faster in the process of the impact of forgiveness will continue to grow and to become faster, and will realize that our hearts are actually so much more hopeful, [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and so if you want more on that, of course, for giving which you can't forget is a great resource.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's great.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, a little behind the scenes, everyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: We lost Lisa at the just a minute ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's in a hotel room and her internet.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not great.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, um, I would probably ask her this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just going to answer it for her out of the book, but I probably say what's one thing you would want to say.

[SPEAKER_02]: to someone going through an unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the good thing is there's four things that they have at the end of the book, and it's this, it's kind of an oath, something you can save yourself, but we will stop trying to understand our ex spouse and why they did the things they did.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will work on ourselves and not them.

[SPEAKER_02]: We will take the time we need to heal before jumping into another relationship and lastly, our lives are not over.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, a beautiful words, the whole book is such an incredible resource.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, it's surviving an unwanted divorce.

[SPEAKER_02]: This resource is out November 11th.

[SPEAKER_02]: Everyone, grab a copy and to Lisa's point earlier, not just something if you're going through this yourself, but this is for all of us that are walking it with friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: And based on the stats, Joel, we're probably all walking with friends, right?

[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, all right, well, thank you for being here, and Lisa's trying to get back on, but we're not having a connecting point.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, you just tell Lisa, we said thanks for being here, and it's been so insightful, so helpful, and we will be grabbing copies of the book.

[SPEAKER_00]: You bet, thanks guys.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, like I said, Lisa, since her love, sorry that we lost her near the end, but I'm thankful that we had her for most of the interview, since her reception was so poor at this hotel she was at.

[SPEAKER_02]: So happens, happens.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening today.

[SPEAKER_02]: I know this is a hard topic, but I think this is important one.

[SPEAKER_02]: So thanks for taking time to listen.

[SPEAKER_02]: Please share it with friends and family that will benefit from it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then stay tuned.

[SPEAKER_02]: Y'all, we have some fun, stuff coming your way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Max Locados coming up.

[SPEAKER_02]: love him and Melissa Radke, you know, who she is, right, hilarious, funny, Christian, comedian, friend of everyone.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's going to be on for a couple of weeks.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have some fun stuff coming away as we get closer to the holidays, so Matt Chandler, others.

[SPEAKER_02]: So stay tuned.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot's more coming.

[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for being a part of the Mads Prize family.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're the very best.