Don Ross [00:00:00]:
Where the church has gone wrong is that what most men are really asking is, what does it mean to be a man? And the church is trying to answer the question of what does it mean to be a good man?

Ryan Zook [00:00:13]:
This episode of the Men of Iron podcast has been sponsored by Garmin Builders. Garmin Builders sets the standard in home construction. With more than 50 years of expertise, Garmin Builders has been building homes, communities, and connections that positively impact the lives of others. By blending tradition with innovative building science, Garmin delivers a better built, more efficient home. Discover the edge@garmin builders.com thanks again to Garmin Builders for sponsoring this episode of the Men of Iron podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Men of iron podcast. At Men of Iron, we exist to change a culture one man at a time. And we do that by leading you to thrive in your core. 5. We want you to be the strongest man possible in your faith, you, family, friends, fitness, and finances. And if you're not quite sure how to do that, you can always check out our resources. They're linked in our description. We have any number of resources that can help you out. The big thing we want you to do is get a mentor. We believe every man needs a mentor, and that is true for you. So if you're not sure how to get started, there's a link in our description. You can click that or you can just reach out to us@info Menofiron.org, we'd be happy to help you. Today on the podcast, we are joined by Don Ross. He is the founder of manhood tribes. He's also very passionate about investing in men. So I'm excited about our conversation we're gonna have today. Welcome, Don man, thanks for being here with us.

Don Ross [00:01:27]:
Yeah, Ryan, thanks for having me. It's a real treat and a privilege of mine to get to be here with you guys.

Ryan Zook [00:01:32]:
Yeah, for sure. So before we dive into the whole manhood epidemic, tell us a little bit about yourself and what got you to where you are today.

Don Ross [00:01:40]:
My background is in pastoral ministry. Although I didn't start out anticipating being there. I went to college actually to be a doctor, and God got a hold of my heart through college ministry and had decided to kind of shift my focus and really just fell in love with doing ministry. And so, yeah, joined up with a college ministry after college and then worked in church ministry for a long time. Kind of wherever I went, I really gravitated towards working with men, whether that was actually my job or not, and just really began to feel like over time that for the most part, guys were having a hard time connecting with churches and ministries, and churches really weren't doing the best job of reaching men. You know, it was kind of a both and situation. And since that was really kind of what I cared a lot about, I just started to think, hey, maybe I could build a better widget here. And so I started to take a stab at what does it really look like to build community for men. And I think, you know, we can get into some of those things today, but that's kind of what led me down the path of saying, and I want to try to build kind of a different type of men's group and what that really looks like and how to do it well so that it's geared towards the way that men work. And so, yeah, I actually left full time ministry about four years ago and jumped into digital marketing as a way to be able to help me learn some skills for reaching men digitally and virtually and trying to help them be able to build up something for themselves locally through that kind of a platform. So that's what I've been doing now for a little while.

Ryan Zook [00:03:12]:
That's fantastic, man. We got a. We have some similar backstory. I was a pastor for a long time, I think. I think just in what you teed up already, there's an interesting challenge in churches, reaching and caring for men. We've had any number of guests on the podcast that highlight that. And, you know, for all the men that are out there and searching, we know there's a lot of them, they really struggle to find authentic, meaningful community in church settings. So. So you wanted to talk a little bit about just what's going on in the manhood space, I guess, however you want to phrase that, set us up. Let's talk about that.

Ryan Zook [00:03:46]:
Yeah. So, you know, I think, I mean, like, it does. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to kind of read our culture at the moment and, you know, recognize that we're having a real hard time just with the whole conversation around gender and masculinity in particular. And I think one of the reasons for that in the church world is that our culture tends to kind of vacillate between these two really extreme versions of masculinity. One of them is what's kind of become known as toxic masculinity in the culture, right? Where we have these just sort of like uber macho males, you know, that are obsessed with, like, muscles and fast cars and how many women can you sleep with and, you know, your body count and your bank account. And, you know, like, all of those kinds of things, none of those things are necessarily bad in and of themselves. Maybe the, you know, the extreme body count is. But in and of themselves, those things aren't necessarily bad pursuits. They're just being done in bad ways. But because of that, like, all of masculinity has kind of gotten lumped into this category of being toxic. And, you know, I don't think that's realistic. I don't think that's fair. I don't think most men do either. But, you know, the cultural narrative tends to reward people who have extreme viewpoints, and that's certainly an extreme one. And so it gets a lot of attention. So, right, we're kind of over. On one side we've got this toxic version of masculinity, and then on the other side is what I would really call nice guy masculinity. And it's really just kind of about being like, there's a little bit of passivity to it. It's about kind of accepting the culture as it is and going along with the narrative that you're being fed. The nice guy is really focused on. And this is going to sound a little familiar to guys who have been around the church setting for men's ministry for a while. It's really focused on family. So it's focused on, you know, being a good husband, being a good dad, kind of keeping the peace in your home, being as relationally present as you are physically present. All of those things are good things. But at the same time, it's a little bit of a neutered version of what it means to be a man. Right. So it kind of strips men somewhat of their feeling of. Yeah, like there's an. There's an inner power to masculinity, and nice guy masculinity kind of takes that away for the sake of kind of keeping the cultural and the. And the. The residential peace, you know, just kind of keeping things easy and moving. Now, you know, like I said, if you've been around the church for a while, I think most. Most church guys have heard some version of that nice guy masculinity preached as biblical masculinity. Right. That. That's what we really want to see men be, is to be good husbands and good fathers. There's. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think where the church has gone wrong is that what most men are really asking is what does it mean to be a man? And the church is trying to answer the question of what does it mean to be a good man. And men are kind of, you know, looking at that, going like, I don't know that that's really what I'm interested in all that very much. That sounds a little soft or a little weak to me. And I'm asking. I'm asking questions about things that you're not actually answering. So I think that's part of the challenge that we've got in front of us is men are really, you know, the church is kind of getting the cart before the horse. They're trying to tell us how to be good, and men are trying to say, how do we be men? And those are two different questions.

Ryan Zook [00:06:59]:
We're actually, historically, in a unique cultural space because it's actually kind of rare for men to give up that manhood piece of who we are. And we. We always call men to be godly men. You're kind of referring to the. The good men as kind of that feminized church version of manhood. We're always calling men to embrace their manhood and be godly men. And what's interesting on either side of the road, that's how I like to talk about it. Like, we're. We're. To be godly men, we're trying to travel down this road, and on one side, there's this ditch that is that extreme machismo that's, you know, guns and cars and tattoos and bank accounts. And it can be this extreme prideful drift. The one we've had Pastor Joby Martin on, he says, man, I have guns, I have cars, I do lots of hunting. That doesn't make me a man. It does make me awesome, but it doesn't make me a man. And I love his perspective on it. And that's. That's. If you're not careful, you can fall into that extreme tough guy mentality that's all over the Internet. The other ditch on the side of the road is this feminized version of manhood that's just passive. And it's. It's celebrating, like, careful and consistent compromises where it's like, well, I'm trying to keep the peace. I want to represent God as much as I can, but I don't want to cause any kind of uproar or any kind of battle. I just kind of want to steadily go down this road. And I think the thing that erodes on in both of those ditches is that we give up our leadership in the space. And so one of the things Men of Iron calls men to do is like, you are the leaders in your families, regardless of where you are. So if you're a single guy, you'll be a leader in your family at some point. If you're married, if you have kids, you're going to be a leader. And that's an active role that we handle with care, but we handle well. And so either side of the ditch kind of gives up that leadership because one is extremely selfish and one is extremely passive. And what we want to do is call guys to be godly. Men who carry their identity well, represent God well, but in an active, present way.

Ryan Zook [00:09:07]:
Yeah, I think that's really good. I think where I would maybe counter and say, you know, be a little more cautious, is, uh. I think for so long, the church has focused on this idea of masculinity that exists within the context of family. And I think part of what we're really wrestling with right now as a culture is we need a definition of manhood that exists independent of the family, that we can then bring into the family. But I'm not a man because I'm a husband and a father, right? Those are roles that I can play as a man. As a man. But there's a whole bunch of men who. Who don't play those roles that aren't husbands, aren't fathers, or have. You know, are no longer those things for one reason or another. And does that mean that they no longer can be an authentic man? Right. Are they robbed of their manhood because of those things? I don't really think that most churches would say yes to that question. Like, I don't think they would. They would tell men that, no, you're no longer a man because you're not a husband and a father. But most churches don't preach a message about manhood that has anything to do with. Other than being a husband and being a father. So I think that's where I say we've got to really kind of pull back a step, you know, like, we got to get outside of the family and talk about manhood from that perspective. What does it actually mean to be a man independent of what roles you play, what relationships exist in your life? Masculinity is a thing in and of itself. And so let's. Let's go after that and then begin to bring that into the family context.

Ryan Zook [00:10:34]:
Yeah, I agree with you. It's. It's not a position that you're waiting to hold. The way that we hear that all the time is like, well, I'm a young adult dude in college. Does that mean I have no role to play until I eventually get married or I eventually have kids. Like, absolutely not. Like, God's given you a mission exactly where you're at, and it's an active role to build his kingdom and be involved in being a man for God's points and purposes. So I appreciate that. That's good insight on that, man.

Ryan Zook [00:11:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So my. I'll just kind of jump in and say, like, my take on that is I wrote a book called how to Be a Man, and it really kind of talks, you know, those kind of specific things that I think are true of men kind of across history and culture and time and place. So these aren't necessarily the things that would tell you, like, how to be a biblical man. They're certainly not the things that would tell you how to be a good man. They're just the things that, if you look at men anywhere, you're going to find these things. And so I call them the five marks of manhood, because I do think they. They don't necessarily define masculinity, but anywhere you have men showing up, you see this cluster of traits. So it's kind of, you know, naturally associated with masculinity. And those things are strength, courage, skill, honor, and allegiance. So again, they are. They're all kind of like morally neutral things that can be done in good or bad ways, but they are the traits that men tend to exhibit wherever you find men. And so if we can learn how to live those things out, we can actually get better at being men. And I think that's one of the things that our culture is really desperate for right now is what does it actually mean to be a man? You know, for so long, our culture really positioned masculinity around roles. You know, and in particular, in the Post World War II era, that role has been provider. To be a man really means to be the provider of your home and of your family. And now with, you know, with the rise of feminism and gender equality, like, we've really kind of shifted the way that we understand that role. And it's left men really confused, because for so long, this is what we told men they were supposed to be. And now we're telling them, well, you know, actually, you're not as needed for that as we maybe once thought that you were. So we're all kind of left scratching our heads, going, all right, well, what does it mean to be a man? So that's where I say, we gotta back up from. Let's get away from roles and really kind of Talk about some of these defining traits. So again, five marks of manhood. Strength, courage, skill, honor and allegiance. And if you can live those things out well, you're doing well at what it means to be a man.

Ryan Zook [00:13:07]:
So did you, how did you come up with those five things?

Ryan Zook [00:13:09]:
Yeah, through. That's, that's a great question. Through a lot of just like reading, personal research, conversation, you know, exploration, watching good man movies, you know, studying history and culture, you know, like all kinds of things. So there's no, like, you know, it's not a scientific explanation of manhood. Um, it's more kind of my own just, you know, by observation of lots of things. This is what I've seen.

Ryan Zook [00:13:33]:
Yeah. All right, so let's, let's take them one by one. So when we're talking strength, what are we talking about?

Ryan Zook [00:13:38]:
When we talk about strength, that's a really good question to ask. To start, we're primarily talking about physical strength. It doesn't mean that there aren't other forms of strength like mental toughness or grit or, you know, any of that kind of stuff. All of that can be and is important for men. But what we're primarily talking about is that men's bodies are built for physical strength. And this is really kind of our core attribute. Everything about a man flows from the fact that we are meant to be physically strong. Now that doesn't mean that we have to be bodybuilders. You know, it doesn't mean that we need Hollywood six pack abs. It does mean that we need to take care of our bodies. It means that we need to invest in our strength because that's part of how God built us physically, is to be counted on for our strength. So, you know, I kind of say as a, as a measuring rod, like you need to be able to have the strength to make it through the basic activities of your day without getting winded. And then you also need to be able to have some kind of reserve strength in the tank for emergency type situations where you might get called on as a man. And you need to be able to show up and provide some additional strength that's needed in that moment. Whether that's, you know, pulling your kid out from under something that falls on them or, you know, whatever the situation might be, you know, to sprint across the, the yard to be able to get to a family member, you know, whatever, like whatever that is, you need to be able to have some reserve in the tank. And that's the kind of strength that men are looking for. It's functional more than it is for show. But you've got to work on it to be able to maintain that functionality.

Ryan Zook [00:15:08]:
It's interesting. One of our core five is fitness. And I don't, I mean you're working with guys. We get, we do get pushback on fitness sometimes. Like when you're, when you're speaking to a room full of guys, you'll get a couple guys are like, nah, come on. Really? Like I want to honor God, sure, but I don't know that I need to start working out. And if you think about those ditches, one side of the ditch that you fall into is like your fitness becomes an idol. So your whole identity is those six pack abs. Not there's anything wrong with that. I would love me some six pack abs. And then the other side is that you're just, I mean, almost passive and lazy. Like you're not, you're not paying attention to your physical state at all. And we're constantly trying to call guys out of that. Hey, we're not calling you to be bodybuilders, but take your, your body seriously. Like take, eat, eat good food. That's harder and harder to do to eat good food, get active, get outside, touch some grass, man, it's going to be good for you.

Ryan Zook [00:15:59]:
I think that's exactly right. I think, you know, I like, I mean, you know, for the ease of memorability. I like your, your five Fs there, you know, that that helps with it. I think the word fitness for guys might be sometimes a hang up in just the sense of that, you know, that wor associated in our culture with the gym bro and the gym membership and the six pack. You know, fitness means, you know, what we think of as a fitness model in a sense. And I don't think that's right. Like, and I don't get the sense that that's what you're after. But I do think guys need to take care of their bodies and I think we need to be training for strength. Like whether that looks like going to the gym, whether that looks like getting out for a run, whether that looks like you do some pushups every day and you've got your kid on your back while you do them, you know, like it can look like anything you want it to, but your body is built for strength. That is how God designed you. And it's just a matter of stewardship of saying, I'm going to take care of what God gave me and this is part of what he gave you. And you know, as we get into the rest of these marks of manhood. Like I said, strength is really the core of it. It's from that place that all of these other things flow out of. And so if we're not taking care of that core attribute, we're going to be weaker and suffer in all of the other things.

Ryan Zook [00:17:11]:
All right, what's your. What's your next one?

Ryan Zook [00:17:13]:
Yeah, courage is the next one. And so, you know, kind of very obviously flows from strength. Courage is just the ability to face your fears and move towards them. Right. So it's not kind of this, again, machismo, bravado, sort of like, I'm afraid of nothing, you know, kind of mentality that. That's a Hollywood myth, honestly, that doesn't actually exist in human beings. If it does, it's a. It's some kind of a pathology. Right. It's not a healthy thing to be afraid of nothing. Courage is actually being able to say, yeah, like, I have some fears, I know what they are, I can name them, but I'm willing to face them and to move towards them to try to do something about them. So courage is kind of both the opposite of passivity, right, which is doing nothing in the face of our fears, but it's also the kind of the opposite of bravado, which is like, I'm going to mask my fear with sort of an overexertion of something, strength or arrogance or, you know, who knows what courage is? Just saying, I am afraid, but I'm going to move towards that and try to do something about it as a man.

Ryan Zook [00:18:17]:
It's good for men to do hard things. So we want to be constantly stretched, we want to constantly grow. I think to put the godly spin on courage. Like you can constantly see throughout the Bible. These guys that are being called to do things that are hard things, and they're trusting that God will see them through those things. I've been talking a lot about Gideon. When we're first introduced to Gideon in Judges, he's actually like hiding out in a wine press because he doesn't want to be seen by his enemies. And God's like, hey, I'm going to give you victory over your enemies. And it ends up being God that gives him the power to do that. So it's not, hey, I'm afraid of nothing. I'm just going to blast through doors. I'm going to trust that God is going to equip me for the task that he's put in front of me. And because of that, I can trust him and I can move Forward. And again, it does. It takes strength. It takes courage, because we've got to tackle some things that we haven't done before. And that's, I think, how we push against this passivity that's so prevalent in our culture. Everybody's telling us to sit on the couch, relax, and let things go by. It's a whole different thing to stand up and say, no, that's actually not what I'm going to do. I'm going to call you out of where you're hanging out, where you're hiding out, to grab hold of the life that God's put in front of you. It's an active thing. It's not something that's going to happen by accident. It takes a lot of courage.

Ryan Zook [00:19:30]:
Yeah, that's well said. And I think that's. It's. It's lacking in our culture right now. Right. The nice guy version of masculinity is really soft on courage. It kind of encourages us to downplay our courage. Not to stand up for things, but just to sort of go along with the flow. So I think courage is something that's really needed in our culture from men at the moment.

Ryan Zook [00:19:52]:
What's funny is one of the things that comes out of that is we were encouraged to, like, passively accept things. And then there's all these background conversations. Like, I don't really like that, but it's kind of how it is. It's like, well, it doesn't have to be that way. You can take a stand. You can actually change what's around you, but you're going to have to embrace the task in front of you.

Ryan Zook [00:20:10]:
Yeah, for sure.

Ryan Zook [00:20:11]:
All right, so you build on courage. What's your next one?

Ryan Zook [00:20:13]:
Yep, the next one is skill. And skill is probably the easiest of the ones to understand. It really is just kind of straightforward, you know, Liam Neeson style. You need a set of skills. Right. So men, pretty much like forever, throughout all of time, you know, all histories and cultures, men have been counted on for a set of skills. We are depended on for being able to do things, to make things happen in the world. And so, you know, whether that looks like the particular skills for your job or just kind of the jack of all trade set of skills that men are, you know, needed to have these days. That's a part of it, I think, in particular, though, where we see in our culture today where skill is getting so strangely transformed by things like AI and just the digital world and how, you know, for the most part, men, you know, our skills used to be tied very closely to our strength. You know, we did things physically, and that was how we accomplish things in the world these days. Most men, you know, we sit in front of a screen all day, right? And so our skill sets are less and less tied to strength. And so because of that, I think it's. It's really important that as men, we try to cultivate a diverse set of skills. We do need to learn to kind of be like masters in a few kind of small things. Like, this is what I'm really kind of like an expert in, or this is what I really have to offer to the world around me. But we need to be developing skills in things that are diverse and that cause us to kind of get out of our comfort zone, because that's what's actually going to push us to grow as a man and not just to, you know, kind of, again, sit in front of the screen. And not that that's being lazy, but it is neglecting some of what we are capable of as a man to just focus on kind of like digital skills.

Ryan Zook [00:21:59]:
I love that that's one of your five, because I think about my. My dad and my grandpa, like, they can pretty much do anything. Like, if, if it's. If it's broke, it's going to get fixed. If you need it built, they'll build it. If they got to drive something somewhere, they're going to drive it there. And they're not discouraged by the task in front of them, and they know they have the skills to do it. And it's because the men before them entrusted them with the skills that they knew. So they're like, there's this legacy of skill set that I do. I think it gets lost a lot. And if we're not careful, if we're not continuing to teach and grow in those legacies of skill, I think we're in trouble. And there's a lot of fulfillment and satisfaction that comes from those things, right? So not everybody has to build houses or fix cars, but when you have built a house or you fixed a car, it's pretty satisfying to sit back and say, man, I used the skills, I learned new skills, and I accomplished a task. And I do think that's missing on a lot of people. I heard a study recently, particularly in video game culture, young boys really resonate with video games because they can accomplish a task in front of them. So you think about a Minecraft or something, they can build a whole town, they can build a whole building, they can build a whole city, but none of it's real. And so at the end of the day, you end up with this digital accomplishment that doesn't equal anything in the real life around you. And because of that, we're getting this sense of fulfillment from something that's not tangible. And so the guys that were doing this study were encouraging men to pursue physical, tangible skills and getting that satisfaction from real accomplishment.

Ryan Zook [00:23:41]:
Yeah, I think that's great. And I think the way you said it too, and I know as you guys, as an organization, really valuing mentorship. Yeah. I think there is something really critical in the whole realm of skill for men that relates to the passing on of skill from one man and one generation, really, of men to another. Because it's not just the passing on of skill, it's also the passing on of masculinity. Right. So we're not just imparting skills, we're transferring something from one man to another when we do that. And, you know, these days, when it comes to skill, like most of us, our mentor is probably YouTube. Right. If we're trying to figure out how to do something, we go to YouTube first to figure out, you know, what do I do? And look, I don't have any problems with that. I use YouTube, you know, as much as anybody does. Trying to figure out how to, you know, take care of something around the home or fix something on the car or, you know, whatever. That's kind of just a part of life these days. But I tell you a story of kind of like how I wish that it could go more often is back. This is probably five or six years ago, a buddy of mine set out to build a table for my living room. So kind of like a farmhouse style table. And he's a little better skilled as a carpenter than I was, so I was glad to kind of have him as sort of a, you know, a mentor and a guide in that process. But we looked up some videos, you know, and like, how do we do this and how do we make this cut? And I'm not sure about, like, is this going to hold and what would we do to shore it up a little better? So we did look up some things together, but that the camaraderie that was built in, sharing that exercise and building that table was irreplaceable. And the skill that transferred from him to me came along with a bond that was strengthened by doing that activity. And you don't get any of that from YouTube. Right. You might get the skill accomplished, but you're not getting any kind of transference of masculinity. And I do think we're. We're losing that in our culture today. So, you know, I encourage guys, whenever you're trying to learn how to do something, it's not bad to go to YouTube to look for some answers, but try to involve some other man in the process as well. You know, whether it's, you know, if you've got a son, involve him in the process, even if it's just for the sake of, hey, let's work on this together. If you've got a dad or an older friend who can, you know, kind of help you and be a part of it, even if they're not an expert, it's just an invitation to say, hey, will you come be an extra set of hands with me on this? And in that extra set of hands process, you impart something in terms of masculinity that just doesn't happen from looking it up on the Internet.

Ryan Zook [00:26:09]:
I. I'll add to that that young guys, they tend to gravitate towards those guys with skills that can help them with it. Like, it. I mean, my sons, for example, when I'm changing the oil in the minivan, which is probably the least masculine oil that you can change, they. They want to be there, and they want to know what's going on. They want to know how you're doing it, because they're soaking up those skills.

Ryan Zook [00:26:32]:
When.

Ryan Zook [00:26:33]:
When I was a pastor, I had a. Had an old Kawasaki motorcycle that I was rebuilding in my garage. And some of the best connections with some of the guys I was pastoring was when they came over and they were checking out the motorcycle and I was teaching them how to do it. And it. It's. I mean, honestly, from a ministry perspective, it's some of the most effective times of investing in other guys I've had, because most guys don't want to sit in a coffee shop. I recognize many people do, but most guys don't want to sit in a coffee shop and talk to each other about their lives and their issues. What's interesting is when you're sitting in a canoe with a guy fishing or you're sitting in the garage working on the car, all that stuff comes out naturally, and it's way less weird. So I like your focus on skill. I think that's. I think it's sharp, man.

Ryan Zook [00:27:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks.

Ryan Zook [00:27:16]:
Take us into the next one.

Ryan Zook [00:27:18]:
All right, so I'll actually do the. The next two and one fell swoop. So we're talking honor and allegiance. So honor and allegiance a little different than the first three, the first three are really things that a man can kind of work on independently. So those are things you can develop just by yourself. Yeah. Honor and allegiance are inherently relational. So honor really focuses on kind of like the peer or like the horizontal aspect of relationships, whereas allegiance is kind of the vertical or like authority figure side of relationships. So men have these relationships in their lives whether they want to or not. You know, it's just a part of what it looks like to be a man. But as men, we are really, really shaped by these things. And that's why it's important to understand that there are marks of manhood. So on the honor side of things, when it, as it relates to kind of peers, honor really just is the idea of doing right by your peers. So it's kind of an older definition of the word. It isn't quite the same way that we use it today, where we tend to think of honor as being more like integrity or, you know, having upstanding character. That's a little more morally positive than what the kind of older definition of the word is, which is just to say you're doing right by the people around you. And if the people around you are not doing good, then you could still have honor if you're living the way that they're living. But you're not necessarily living good, you know, you're not necessarily living well. Honor is just saying that I'm going to pursue the esteem and the appreciation of the people around me. And men do this without thinking. Like this is just built into our blood. Right? We, as at adolescents, we call it peer pressure. It is just the, you know, the way that we gravitate towards trying to act like, be like, do like the guys around us. It's just kind of who we are as men. And so because we're wired that way, we do have to really think about what men am I surrounding myself with because I'm going to naturally become like the men around me. And probably an even more better question for our world today is am I surrounding myself with men at all? Most men don't have close friends, they don't have a tribe of guys around them. They're not functioning in any kind of a close knit community with other guys. And so they're not becoming like much of anything other than some aspirational celebrity figure or whoever that they're trying to model their lives like. But that's really not how honor works. Honor has to be a peer relationship. And so you're going to become like who those people are that are around you. So it's really important that guys figure out how to prioritize having men in their lives that are trying to better them and they're trying to do the same thing for those guys. And then on the flip side of that is really that allegiance side of the equation, which is to say, you know, you've got to, as a man, figure out how to relate well to authority figures in your life. And as a boy, this might look like your parents or teachers or coaches or things like that, but as an adult, it starts to look more like your boss or it looks like, you know, people in positions of government authority or law enforcement or things like that. You know, how do you relate to the authority structures of the world around you is really important. Are you just railing against them? Are you angry all the time time about the way the world is working? You know, all of those things matter, and they matter as men, because our allegiance as men often shapes the relationships around us, even as much as it shapes us. So as a man, you know, who your authority structure is is probably gonna, if you have a family, it's gonna shape your family, son, right? Who you choose to give your career to, your boss, you know, is going to shape what your family begins to look like, not only in terms of what you are capable of and what you can make as a husband, but it also shapes like what your attitude is, like what time you have available for your family or anything outside of your work. All of those things really impact a man's world in a way that's more holistic than just, you know, my relationship to my boss. But then he goes beyond that as well. So allegiance has kind of like an asterisk category that I call ultimate allegiance. And that's really about a man saying, what is the God or code or ultimate principles that I am choosing to live my life by? How do I kind of orient, you know, the big decisions of my life, the day to day activities of my life around, you know, this certain set of ideas or this religious figure that I'm following, You know, as a, as a former pastor and as a Christian, you know, I obviously would say that I believe that Jesus is the man who's most worth following and the most worthy of our ultimate, ultimate allegiance. But a man needs to wrestle with that. He needs to wrestle with who is my ultimate allegiance. And is that person, that God or that thing really worthy of the allegiance that I'm giving to it.

Ryan Zook [00:31:55]:
It's interesting, you call out the like, Jesus is the ultimate manhood figure I think one of the, the big growth things that we've seen in men is it. It's common to say, well, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian. Like, I, I follow Jesus. It's a whole nother thing to understand, like, is your allegiance to Jesus. That's two different things. And so when, when a man actually decides, no, I'm going to give full allegiance to Jesus, that means that I'm going to learn what he taught me. I'm going to actually do what he said I should do. I'm going to build the kingdom that he's called me to build. That's where you go from passivity to like, yeah, I'm a Christian. I go to church and I do this thing to like, no, I'm actually actively engaged in this relationship with Jesus where I'm actually committed to what he's called me to be committed to. And it's, it's transformational.

Ryan Zook [00:32:41]:
I love that word allegiance for really thinking about a man's relationship to Jesus. Because, you know, in our world, at least when we think about allegiance, you know, sometimes we might think of it in the context of, like, the Pledge of Allegiance or something like that. But for the most part, I think guys kind of summon this idea of, like, knights and a king or, you know, something along those lines. It's like, you know, I'm kneeling before a king and he's, you know, tapping his sword on my shoulders, and allegiance looks like, you know, me giving myself to the king, that I'm going to do whatever he asks of me. And I think that's such a beautiful picture of what our relationship does need to look like as men, that we need to think about him that way, that he is our king. And if he says, go and do this or don't do this, like, my allegiance means that. Like, okay, like, the answer is yes, you know, whatever the question is, whatever the command is, my response is yes, because you are my king. You are worthy of my allegiance, and I have given it to you. So that's, that's like me predetermining what my response is going to be to what you ask of me.

Ryan Zook [00:33:39]:
I would assume along with that, with honor, you're. You're building a brotherhood of guys that are following that same path. Their allegiance is in the same place. And again, they're not just guys you hang out with that you can watch football with. They're guys are saying, hey, you screwed up here. This needs to change. I'm seeing this in you. If this changes, you're going to be a better, more effective man. They're holding you accountable, they're pushing you forward, and you're honoring them in that process. Like, it. It's really solid, good peer pressure to have other strong, godly men around you, pushing you that direction. Sometimes it's hard to find those guys.

Ryan Zook [00:34:14]:
It is. Yeah. And because it's hard to find those guys, that's really what I've tried to, you know, kind of invest myself into is just what does it look like to kind of build this tribe? That's what I call it. You know, I call it a manhood tribe. And how do you do that? How do you put together a group of guys in a way that we actually do push each other towards becoming more of those kinds of things? So one of the things that I do. Well, I'll say this before I kind of get into, you know, what does that look like in a tribe context? I would encourage guys out there. The harsh reality of our culture at the moment is that there aren't guys in tribes just sitting out there that are waiting around for you to join them. Just like there. There aren't groups of guys who are doing this on the regular basis. And so if you want a group of men like that to be a part of, the reality is you're going to have to start it. Like, it's kind of up to you to make that happen in your world. And so I think there's a little bit of a call to action there for men of just saying, like, don't be afraid to get off the fence and just go after this. Yeah, it might be hard, and it's certainly going to be unfamiliar and uncomfortable because like you said, you know, there aren't men in our world that are doing this, but because it's unfamiliar and uncomfortable, there's a lot of room to make mistakes. Like, you can go after this and not do it perfectly and nobody's going to know. Right. There's no model for how to do this super well. So giving it a shot and doing your best is going to go way further than most men are going. So, you know, I would just say to guys like, who are. Who might be listening and thinking, man, I really wish I had a group of guys like that to be a part of. It's up to you, dude. Like, start it, make it happen, you know, bring it together in your world and go after that. But you know, what I was going to say kind of like to that point is I have a tribe. I've built one myself, you know, and we've been together now for coming up on seven years. But one of the things that we do regularly as a way of trying to kind of push each other towards this vision of, you know, increasing allegiance to Jesus, is we have what we call manhood challenges. So every month we take those five marks of manhood and we each kind of come up with our own challenge for like, what aspect of manhood, you know, what of these five marks do I need to get better at for the moment? So it might be, you know, like you mentioned, you know, changing the oil in your vehicle. Most guys in our culture have never changed the oil in their vehicle. You know, for our grand, our grandparents generation, you know, our granddads would look at that and say, say, what is wrong with you guys? You know, that's just, that was normal. That was a part of what they did in terms of maintaining their own vehicles and property. For us, you know, we, we take it to the Jiffy Lube or whatever, and that's where we get our oil changed. So just figuring out some of those kinds of things, you might need a skill challenge of like, I need to get better at being able to take care of my own stuff. Maybe you need a strength challenge, which is to say, yeah, I've, I've got to start prioritizing my physical strength. And so I'm going to try to make a goal of being able to do 20 push ups unbroken, you know, by the end of the month. And so that's, that's what I'm working towards. I'm kind of working on that goal every day. Or maybe it's like, you know, you're one of those unfortunate people who still has to go into work every day and your office is up on the third floor and your strength challenge is going to be, I'm not going to take the elevator all month. I'm going to take the stairs. Every time I'm going up or down, you know, to the office, I'm taking the stairs. You know, it could be whatever. It's like anything along those lines is a way to push you, to challenge you, to try to make those things happen. We try to grow in manhood, but then of course we can do an allegiance challenge as well. And that's where we do kind of get into the realm of saying, I've got to figure out how to strengthen my relationship with Jesus. So an allegiance challenge might look like I need to try to memorize some scripture verses this month, or I need to be more intentional about having my devotional time, you know, every day this month, or I need to, like, actually take some time to invest in prayer. And I'm going to do that not just on my own, but, like, the church prayer group, you know, is getting going. And so I'm going to join up with that so that I have some other people to do that with. You know, it can be anything, really. Like, that's the point. There's no, like, limit on what a challenge can be, but the goal is just to say, like, here's what I need it to be, and then there's a brother somewhere in my tribe who's going to not only hold me accountable to that, but likely is going to try to do that thing with me. Like, if it's possible for another man to participate in the challenge with me, he's going to come be a part of it as well. And that will help, like, me grow and accomplish what I need to, but also build our brotherhood by strengthening our tie and doing that thing together.

Ryan Zook [00:38:46]:
Our organizations totally have that in common because everything we do is built on goal setting and accountability. So it's. It's one thing to say, you know, I really want to be a better man. And if. If today you're watching this podcast, you're like, yeah, I would like to be a better man. If there's no goal tied to that and there's no accountability with that, you're likely not going to become a better man. You have to actually set out to do it on purpose. And we always say, break it into the smallest chunks possible so that you can actually accomplish those things. So we're not, you know, if you. If you've never read the Bible, we're not telling you to read the whole Bible today. Just read a chapter. Great. Did you do it? Did you not do it? Have somebody check in on you, somebody from that brotherhood to say, hey, did you do what you said you were going to do or not? If you haven't been spending time with your kids, hey, I'd like to spend 20 minutes with my son today. Great. Did you do it? Did you not? Awesome. I'm going to hold you accountable and push you forward. It's just transformational, and I think it's something that a lot of guys don't have again, because when we're passive guys, we, you know, setting goals is kind of scary. Like, I don't know if I want to set that goal because I don't know if I actually want to do it. It's really exciting to say, you want to do it. It's a whole nother thing to set a goal and then to tell somebody else to check in on you and hold you accountable. I love how you're highlighting to ask them to do it with you. That's a whole other level and it makes it way more likely for you to be successful in what you're setting out to be. So when you have goal setting and accountability as just a regular part of your rhythm of life, it's almost impossible not to become a better, more effective godly man because you're setting out to do it on purpose. I wanted to earlier, when you're talking about seeking out that brotherhood, like, you're just not going to find those guys unless you try to do it. The stats say that 75% of men desire some kind of connection and relationship with another man. That's going to hold them accountable and call them higher. Only 30% of men will actually go and ask for that. So a lot of us are afraid to invite that kind of connection, but all of us are looking for it. And I don't know what's going on with the other 25% of men. I guess maybe they'll come around eventually or something, but. But, like, the odds are high that when you ask somebody to help you grow, they're going to be willing to do it. It doesn't mean they're going to be perfect in that, but they're probably looking for it, too. We just don't talk about it and we don't share about it very often.

Ryan Zook [00:41:04]:
Yeah, that's right. I think one of the big barriers there for men is that they, you know, they have that desire and might even have the courage to ask another man to kind of be part of it, but they just don't know what that looks like or how to do it. And so inviting another man into it feels like, I think risky is the wrong word, but just kind of like awkward and cumbersome. Like, what am I even doing that I'm asking somebody else to participate in? I don't. I don't really know myself. So I kind of wish that somebody else was leading this and I could jump in with them if they knew what they were doing, you know. And I think the problem is that, like, nobody does, you know, there's just guys who nobody knows what to do. So that's honestly kind of like what I, you know, where this tribe model comes from is to be able to say, okay, here's at least a model of a way that you can do it. Here's here's a way to be able to get something started. Here's a. Here's how you can pull together a group of five guys or eight guys and, you know, get something going in your garage or in your backyard or, you know, in your living room when it's cold, you know, whatever. But here's what you can do. Here's the ways to go about it, and a whole, like, kind of trying to get away from sort of the church model of we need a curriculum all the time. Like, what's this latest book study that we're going through? Or what's this, you know, material that we're going to do or that we're watching on the tv? And like, again, that stuff isn't necessarily bad. But when guys are dependent on curriculum to be able to build a tribe of men together, as soon as there's not curriculum, we lose the ability to know how to meet. And that's unfortunate. So, you know, I tried to build something that was a little more of a method and not really a curriculum. And then that way, you know, guys are not dependent on somebody else to know what to do when they get together. They can just get together and do it, and that's what's great.

Ryan Zook [00:42:49]:
So you've had. You've had your tribe for seven years. I'm assuming you have some other ones going on. Is that you got some other ones around the country or something?

Ryan Zook [00:42:55]:
Yeah, I've had a few kind of get started, and that's sort of where I'm at in the process is hoping to really kind of help men and help churches, be able to launch more manhood tribes and see this thing really take off. I know that guys are hungry for it.

Ryan Zook [00:43:07]:
So in your experience with the. With the five that you have, what's the. What's the thing that you notice guys are struggling with the most? Like, what are. What are you guys trying to improve in the most?

Ryan Zook [00:43:17]:
What they're struggling in the most, I think across the board, is honor. And that's really just because of a lack of friendship. Right? Honor is dependent on friendship. And because guys don't have close friends and don't really know how to have close friends anymore, honor is really kind of the one that most men are struggling with. They may not even recognize that that's the one that they're struggling with the most. But when they start to get around these ideas of here's what honor does to you and does for you, they begin to recognize, like, I've been without that for way too long. So I Think that's probably the one that most men are struggling with. I think the one, especially in the church context, that most men want to improve in is allegiance. I think most men of faith in particular have a desire to grow in their relationship with Jesus and want to improve there, but have kind of found the church a little bit lacking in terms of what they're feeding to men as a way to actually be able to grow in their allegiance to Jesus. So that's. I think that's a part of it is just saying, like, yeah, I do think men can grow in their relationship with Jesus in a way that looks different than women. And that's okay. That really is okay. God designed us different, and so why would we be surprised that we might connect to him differently than each other? But most churches don't take a kind of gendered approach to discipleship, and I think that's unfortunate. But I think that's why men are really hungry for how do I grow in that allegiance? And what you're telling me to do doesn't really feel like it's going to work for me, or I'm just not interested in.

Ryan Zook [00:44:45]:
Or they just don't share at all because they're in some kind of small group setting and they're just not going to open up about what's going on. I was, I was just speaking at a church recently. We had a. It was a men's group. There were like 40 guys. They had just finished curriculum, six weeks on hidden sins. And so I. I step up to start talking. I'm like, okay, so you guys have done six week on hidden sins. Is there anybody in this room that has definitely not shared the hidden sin that's in their lives? And this, this dude right in front of me goes, oh, yeah, for sure. I. I definitely have not shared. And you could see in the room, it was like, oh, okay, we're actually gonna be honest about this. Okay. And other hands start to go up. And other hands. I was like, guys, you've done six weeks on this. When else in your life is this even gonna happen? And why haven't you shared and kind of the thing. We kind of kicked that around for a while. And one of the things we came up with is guys tend to thrive a lot more in very small settings, one to one, very small groups, because trust is a big deal. I'm not going to just open up about my hidden sins with 10 guys that I don't know. So building a brotherhood is hard. But the other thing I noticed is once we kind of cracked that. And it was like, oh, so you're going to be honest, you're going to say you got some stuff. Like everybody was willing to share their stuff because it was like, oh, this is actually a trust based circle here. And a lot of them were very interested in what a smaller setting that's intentional. That's a long connection, what that would look like for them. I think we've seen at Men of Iron, guys just thrive in one on one because it's like, hey, I've got another guy across from me that's going to hold me accountable, that's going to hear my stories. It's not going to judge me, but is going to encourage me to move forward. And it's just been transformational. So I'm, I'm pretty convinced, especially in the church space. But I know it's not only in the church space. It seems like women are just fine to sit in a group of people and share about what's going on in their lives. Men don't seem to operate the same way. And I think that's one of the primary issues that we, that we're dealing with.

Ryan Zook [00:46:41]:
Yeah, yeah. You know, men have some. It's just not. That's not the surface level way that we connect. Right. That's not where we start. It doesn't mean that we can't get there. And I think when men do get there, it becomes really powerful. Right. It is incredibly cementing in our relationships with each other. It builds brotherhood like you wouldn't believe. You know, in the tribe model, we call it getting naked. When you kind of can get to the point place where you've really been able to expose what's going on under the hood with you with another guy. It builds that sense of camaraderie and honor in ways that nothing else does. But guys don't start there. You know, I don't know that women actually do start there either. I think they're a little more comfortable dipping into that side of the pool. But guys usually start in a place of action and activity and work their way up to that kind of level of vulnerability over time. It just takes a lot more for guys to, to get to that place of trust. But when they do, man, there is like, it is hard broken to be able to interfere with guys who develop that kind of trust because they tend.

Ryan Zook [00:47:43]:
To last a long time. You know who you guys are, you're doing life with those guys. They're going through stuff. You're there for them, you're going through stuff they're there for you. It's a long haul kind of thing. And I think you kind of made a little bit of this case earlier, that that is actually how the world has functioned for a long time throughout history. And it's. It's just not right now. So when you find it, it's rich, it's meaningful, it's lasting, but you do have to go look for it. It's not going to slap you in the face by accident.

Ryan Zook [00:48:11]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, to encourage guys, like, I think the reality is, is that men are hungry for this. So, you know, if you are the guy who's thinking, like, I really would like to have something like that in my life and maybe I'd try starting it, but I'm kind of like, is any kind of anybody going to be interested? Like, am I just going to get a whole bunch of no's? Man, I would just encourage you. Like, there's lots of guys who are hungry for this who maybe lack the courage that you have. You know, like, you can be the guy who has the courage to stand up and say, I'll give this a shot. Why don't you guys come try it with me? And I think a lot of guys are looking for that kind of, you know, this bringing it back full circle to what you talked about at the beginning, that kind of leadership. You know, just looking for a man who will stand up and say, I don't exactly know the way, but I'll try to get us there. You know, if you guys will follow me and we'll do it together, like, I'll help lead. And even that kind of like, almost like hesitant but humble form of leadership can be really powerful in helping men get to where they want to go, because it doesn't come across as arrogance or expertise, which I think in our culture in particular, men are often turned off by. But that humility that comes along with the, like, I don't have it all figured out, but I'm willing to try, is the type of leadership that men actually really do like to follow.

Ryan Zook [00:49:25]:
I love it, man. I really like what you're up to. I think there is an incredible hunger among men. I think. I think collectively we're kind of tired of the way things have been and we're looking for something to change. But it takes men that are going to make that change and make that stand. And it is. It's just saying, hey, I don't have it all figured out, but I'm going to try. Do you want to go with me? And you are, you're going to get no's. Like, spoiler alert, guys are going to say no, but you're going to get yeses, too. And once you have that tribe and you can do life with that tribe, you're going to be a stronger, better, more effective man. And everybody around you is going to benef from it.

Ryan Zook [00:49:57]:
Yeah, man. I'm so encouraged by you guys and what Men of Iron is doing. Like, I, I think to your point, you know, like, I think men are hungry for something to be different. And I think in order for that to happen, it really takes a groundswell of guys doing what you guys are trying to do, you know, of making that happen in a whole bunch of places and in a whole bunch of ways. And so I'm excited to see kind of all of that happening and what you guys are doing as well.

Ryan Zook [00:50:21]:
Well, I appreciate the conversation, man. How do, how do guys find you? Where do they get the book? Where do they find the tribes?

Ryan Zook [00:50:27]:
The easiest place, actually is I've got a free resource that guys can download and that will get you kind of into the orbit and help you find all the things you might be looking for as it relates to manhood tribes. But I have a free quiz that's called how manly are you? And it's an easy download. It's a great way for you to kind of take a look at those five marks of manhood and see where you measure up on each of those things, what you might be strong at, what you might need to grow in, and maybe how to take some next steps. So if you go to manhoodtribes.com/manly, you can download that quiz right there and get started.

Ryan Zook [00:50:58]:
All right. Thanks for being on the pod, man. I appreciate the conversation.

Ryan Zook [00:51:00]:
Absolutely. Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it.

Ryan Zook [00:51:02]:
Hey, thanks again for listening to the Men of Iron podcast. Make sure you go check out Don Ross's content. Look at joining a tribe, look at, find out how manly you are. Do the survey. Thanks again for listening to us. We'll be back again next week.

Don Ross [00:51:15]:
Thanks for listening to the Men of Iron podcast. Be sure to, like, subscribe and share at Men of Iron. We exist in to change a culture one man at a time. And we'd love to have you partner with us. So go to menaviron.org to see how you can get involved or donate@menaviron.org donate.