003 Valerie Frostman === Kevin Rose: [00:00:00] Today, associate Zen Master and Musician, Valerie Fortman. For over 20 years, Valerie performed at an absolutely insane high level inside the precision of classical music. This is a world where even a single misplaced note could shatter the perfection of a performance. And one night in Dallas, after winning a coveted opera position, she found herself caught between old disappointments and future anxieties. She said it felt like the past and future were sliding apart, tectonic plates splitting open. So on the advice of a friend, she walked into a Zen Center. She told me, I had no idea what I was doing, but it felt like I'd come home. That was nearly 30 years ago. Since then, Valerie has pursued Zen with the same intensity she once gave to music. From [00:01:00] chasing flawless performances to discovering what Zen Masters call empty hands. She became an assistant teacher, and today she's the guiding teacher at Mountain Cloud Zen Center in Santa Fe. But what I really loved about this interview is it's not a story about leaving one life for another. It's about what happens when you stop holding it all together. When the perfectionist discovers that there's never anything to perfect, and when the performer realizes that there's no one performing, we get pretty deep and talk about what happens in those moments. A single step becomes the universe walking the floor rising like breath in a distant mountain suddenly in your chest. And for Valerie, those moments opened into something deeper. She shares a turning point in her practice, a retreat experience where standing in the shower. She vanished, no self, no separation, only the [00:02:00] weight of all human suffering revealed at once. It wasn't a nightmare. She says, it was the greatest gift of my life. And what followed wasn't fear or detachment, the compassion and unwavering desire to serve this interview is kind of a front row seat into Valerie's journey of becoming a zen teacher. It's a wild world of surrender, letting go. And for those that have these awakening moments, they see the world in a very different way. And you'll hear it in her voice in zen. They have this saying that it's the lifting of the veil. I have no doubt many of you listening to this are insanely high performers. And one of the questions I had in my early days of kind of a deeper practice was, if I take this seriously, if I go deep here. Am I gonna lose my edge? Am I just gonna stop caring? We dive into that and you'll see that's certainly not the case. And if anything, [00:03:00] one of the benefits is less burden. So this podcast is for the Zen, curious and really for anyone, and I certainly put myself in this camp that senses there's something just out of view. And I hope this conversation is a great signpost for you. A reminder that you have everything that you need, you just might not know it yet. And please know that I'm approaching this with as much humility as possible. I've had zero awakening moments, but I have had a couple little hits of a shift in perspective and I like, I really like where it's going, so I'm spending more and more time these days on the cushion. If you'd like to learn more about Valerie's work or sit with her at Mountain Cloud, you'll find all the links in the show notes. And now here's our conversation, associate Zen, master musician and friend Valerie Forman.[00:04:00] Well, thank you for doing this. Valerie Frostman: Yeah, I'm curious. Uh, it's just nice to see you and you know, be in conversation. Kevin Rose: Yeah. I'm excited to chat today. One of the things that I found really beautiful was when we did our last little mini retreat. You kind of gave a little bit of your backstory on how you came into this practice, and I was wondering if you could repeat that here for us today. Valerie Frostman: Ah, thank you. So I started life as a classical musician, fell in love with classical music, trained seriously to be a flutist. Did that profession for more than 20 years. But, uh, along the way I won an audition to, uh, play principal flute in the Dallas Opera for a season a year. [00:05:00] And that was just a joy. I was, uh, doing a lot of different kind of work and that just complimented it so beautifully, all of it in music. And then at the end of that year, as was the regulation, they had a national, actually international audition. So I had been the interim principal flutist and I really wanted that job. So I went into training. As one does. We had about three months to prepare and every day practicing these excerpts, practicing a bit of a concerto that was on the list, just in training. And as that audition was nearing, I realized that I would, I was waking up in the night, uh, sort of remembering past experiences, um, some of them disappointments. [00:06:00] And during the day I was, you know, practicing so that I could play a certain way at a future time. And it felt like the past and the future were just sliding apart, like these tectonic plates. And where the present would be was just this chasm. And I felt like I was losing my love for playing. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: So the week before the audition, I played with the Dallas Symphony, which I often did. And uh, a good friend said, Hey, how are you? And I told him just a bit about this and said, you know, something needs to change. And he said, oh, I have just the thing, come and sit. And it turned out he had discovered the Maria Kanzi Center in Dallas, where I was living like about six months earlier. [00:07:00] So, you know, the audition happened on the weekend and Monday night there was an orientation at the Zen Center. So I went to that and I had done a little bit of reading the three Pillars of Zen and Mind Beginner's Mind, but that was all so really a true beginner at this practice. And still, uh, just even hearing that first introduction and then we went in and sat one round of 25 minutes and I just felt like I had come home. There was something very recognizable about this practice though for quite a while in the beginning. Um, I. You know, I had a experience like many people do of this what's in calls monkey mind. The Buddha even described it, you know, that our [00:08:00] minds are like a monkey swinging from branch to branch. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, we just get entangled in thinking and yeah, that would happen. And nevertheless, I found myself leaving. We would, uh, a night at the Zen sitter would be three rounds of 25 minutes with a five minutes of walking in between, and then maybe a short talk or a cup of tea together in a formal way. And I would leave and get in my car and start driving home. And though the sit might have been almost dizzying because of this monkey mind, somehow the streets and the road signs and the streetlights. Just seemed, uh, brighter. Uh, there was a, a kind of clarity coming on about things, uh, even a bit of luminosity [00:09:00] that really intrigued me. And so I just kept going. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: And that was, I don't know, almost 30 years ago now. And, uh, it, it put my feet on this path. And I find that now with students or other practitioners that many people, um, come to this silent, sitting to zen practice often because of some experience of suffering. In our lives, and sometimes it can be crisis, uh, and sometimes it's just like it was for me, not really a crisis, but a recognition that, you know, I've really wanted to live a more authentic and present life. And so after doing this [00:10:00] practice for well over, I. 10 years. I, uh, was invited by my teacher, Ruben Avi, to Roshi to, uh, join what was an annual teacher training with the Abbott of Sambo and Yamar Roshi. And, uh, that was in 2003. Um, I went to Europe to this, uh, gathering of what they thought might become new teachers, uh, from all around the world. A week of intense training and, uh, you know, with some trepidation, but also great gratitude, I would not have missed it. And at that, after the, the end of that first week, um, of this training, which we do annually, I was appointed an Assistant Zen teacher. So that was the beginning of this teaching path. [00:11:00] Kevin Rose: I don't often think of people that are coming to their first Zen sit who have already read Zen Mind, beginners Mind, and three Pillars of Zen. Uh, was there, how did you find those books to begin with? Was there already some curiosity around Zen? Yes, Valerie Frostman: great question. Um, so I went to, uh, Oberlin College for my undergraduate, actually the Conservatory of Music. And um, they had a program where every January was, uh, sort of a. A free month where you were expected to study something, but um, it wasn't usual classes and you could do it either on campus or off campus. So, you know, one year I had the opportunity, my parents were living in Germany and I spent that month with them and went around [00:12:00] listening to concerts and writing about them. And, but one year, um, actually my senior year I stayed on campus and there was another senior student who was deeply engaged in Zen Buddhism, and he offered one of these ad hoc classes in Zen. So for four weeks we did that possibly every day. That was what led me to read those two books. And I will say, I mean, send mine beginner's mind resonated with my musician's spirit and mentality. There's so many resonances connections, but the three pillars of Zen, uh, seem pretty foreign. You know, that is about a period in Japan, uh, fifties, sixties, uh, uh, a style that is much more formal. Um. Kind of old school than what I'm doing now at Mountain [00:13:00] Cloud, though it's deeply rooted in that tradition. Uh, but it might have been three pillars of Zen, especially those, uh, first 90 pages, which is a basic old school introduction and a window into a kind of practice where there were shouting and hitting and, you know, people weren't hurt. But it was Kevin Rose: pretty fierce. I've never been in that environment, but I have to be honest, I kind of want to try it sometime, like a more formal version of Zen just to see Yeah. What it feels like to have that type of. Pressure cooker like environment, you know? Yeah. Valerie Frostman: I, I will say I've, I've done many what we call sen or these intensive retreats where, you know, either in, in Japan or in Europe where the ku, this long bamboo stick is, uh, was used and, you know, you're, you're sitting hours of meditation.[00:14:00] At some point, someone so designated and trained goes to the altar, does these bows, series of bows, lifts the stick off the altar. And just ceremonially walks or very formally walks around the zendo behind each person. And in some places, the person wielding the stick will simply turn and hit someone and it's twice on each shoulder. You sort of lean forward so they can get the muscle and not the bone, but it's this whack, whack, you know, whack, whack, very sharp. And even if you're not the one being hit, the sound just, you know, wakes you up. Kevin Rose: It's a cup of coffee right there. Yeah, that's it. Valerie Frostman: That's it. And, uh, I, I like it. Now, the, the session where that, I've gone [00:15:00] to where the stick was used. You're the person wielding a walks behind and if you want it, you just raise your hands together in what we call goho. So you signal that you want to be struck. Uh, and if you don't do that, they, they pass you by. So it's, it's sort of the step on the way toward something that's a little more congenial for the folks who are practicing, Kevin Rose: what would classic Zen texts say about that type of practice? Where did it come from? What's the positives? And is it enough just to give you that caffeine, give you that boost? Or is it more hardcore where you can walk away with some, some kind of welts on your back? Like what are we talking about here? Valerie Frostman: Yes. I think, um, I. One can have welts. Now, I, I didn't have that, but you know, this is an ancient tradition, [00:16:00] uh, Chinese, Japanese, uh, Korean Buddhism. And it is, you know, we call it the wake up stick or the encouragement stick sometimes. But I had a chance to sit in a Rinzai monastery in, uh, Kyoto some years ago. And this would've been, it looked like it would've looked, you know, hundreds of years ago. The Zendo was. Open air. So when it's hot, it's hot. When it's cold, it's cold. Of course, the monks all and robes in a rinzai tradition, they were up on platforms or tan. Uh, my good friend Maria, hobby to, and I went there just to, to see if we would be allowed to visit. And indeed we were. And we had tea with the Abbott who spoke very good English. And after a really, you know, beautiful [00:17:00] conversation, he just turned to each of us, turned to Maria. Do you know how to sit? Yes. Turned to me. Do you know how to sit? Yes. Then you may sit for an hour with the monks and it was an hour without, you know, just sitting, no walking. And so we arranged ourselves and started sitting and about 10 minutes in this cheeky or monitor, got off his platform and went to the altar and picked up the biggest stick I have ever seen. Oh my God. Kevin Rose: Did you, were you looking, were you like, 'cause you're supposed to be facing the wall, you know, Valerie Frostman: bef I mean, I just sort of noticed this and Yeah. Before that I was, you know, I had this, my eyes opened, but with a soft, lower gaze as one does. And when I saw it, my eyes opened and I just was riveted by what he was doing. I followed him around, [00:18:00] uh, with my eyes and he would walk behind the monks. And of course they're facing him. So they could, they, when he came to them, they could see. And if he had the sense that a monk needed this, you know, somehow he would just sense whether, whether the sitting was kind of drooping, maybe not clear enough, not, you know, energized enough, not taught enough in a way, or maybe he would sense great potential in the city, you know, like this moment. So, uh, but he would simply turn and face the monk and they would immediately lean forward. And that was the loudest, whack, whack, whack, whack. Um, I, I don't really know what, what that's like, but [00:19:00] there must have really been, not only among. Teachers tradition, but also among practitioners, a sense of this being useful. You know, uh, this practice is really, uh, about awakening, about being fully human, uh, seeing clearly what is this world? What, what is this reality? Uh, you know, in the old days, monks would sometimes join a monastery because they needed food or they needed a place to go or, you know, that happened. But, um, you know, I think nowadays that's much less common. People are really pursuing their true self. So yeah, all these practices and [00:20:00] formalities, I think. They come up around that and just tradition has a way of course, of keeping going. Kevin Rose: Yeah. Well, I, it's on my to-do list, my bucket list of things to, to try at some point. I'm, I'm and curious and you, you need to Valerie Frostman: learn. Oke also the, you know, this is a, a lovely part of it, but a bit of a challenge when you're in a formal session like that. Chances are they'd also do karaoke for meals, which means that you sit at your sitting place also at, you know, in a seated position. Like, oh wow. So you're just sitting so much, you're, you have your bowls and the meal is served right there in the zendo and everything is part of practice. Kevin Rose: Wow. If you're at a cocktail party or you're hanging out and you're meeting someone new for the first time and they say, I've heard of [00:21:00] this zen thing, or, it seems, it's a very loaded term these days. It's been co-opted by pretty much every, everything from greeting cards to, you know, you name it, a bumper stickers. Perfumes, yeah, exactly. How do you describe the practice that you're involved in? If someone is truly wanting to know what is zen all about? Valerie Frostman: It is really, uh, an invitation to sit in silence with yourself to begin with, to taste and see what. What's actually going on in our minds, in our bodies, this whole sensorium. And, you know, the, the basics of this practice are, uh, posture, breathing, and stilling the mind. It is that simple [00:22:00] to find a posture that's conducive, um, to being able to sit still, to being able to really follow the breath, rest in the breath, to come to a point of rest. And, uh, in some ways, there, there are ways to help ourselves focus, uh, on the breath. Uh, become more absorbed, more of course present, more available to tasting. This very moment, what we call the present moment. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: And to allow thinking, just to settle, you know, as I described my own beginning, that can be very challenging. But if someone's willing to give it a try, there's something [00:23:00] quite compelling. And, you know, now in our day it is so counter-cultural to cease all the musk multitasking. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: To sort of let be it bay the onslaught of information. And you know, we're, the stimuli are just coming at us from every direction all the time. And to, uh, pause all of that is really. Can be very transforming actually. Mm. You know, Zen has this, uh, way of kind of enumerating, well, why, what are the reasons that we come to practice? And it, it'll say there are four basic reasons, which means infinite number of reasons, but somehow they may fall under these general baskets. And the first one is [00:24:00] curiosity. A second one is described as. You know, wellbeing, seeking, wellbeing, seeking more peace of mind. The third is sometimes described as a spiritual path or practice. And the fourth one, I, I often call hair on fire. You know, my beloved colleague, Henry Shukman goes, what? 'cause he doesn't have any hair on his head. Uh, but, but Dogan talked about that this great 13th century master, you know, love sitting in Zen as if putting out a fire on top of your head. He wrote, uh, that's pointing to these sort of fundamental questions. You know, what is it to be human? Who am I? [00:25:00] What about life and death? And so that's the fourth motivation, you Kevin Rose: know? Yeah. Valerie Frostman: But you know, usually people come with some kind of combination and all of them are, uh, good reasons to take this up, pick up a practice, explore what this is. Kevin Rose: Why do you think that some of these answers come from a place of less chatter and slowing down thinking less, whereas the intellectual would want to think their way through to the answer to some of the questions that you just posed, but yet it seems that the practice is all about stealing the mind. Then why does that work? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. [00:26:00] Uh, that's so well put, Kevin. Uh, yeah. Zin is always talking about how, uh, this practice, this realities beyond words and letters, you know, the words can't convey, are you can't get at it conceptually. And when, yeah. I just flashed on a couple of lines from this, uh, master Mumon who compiled the Gateless gate, this collection of 48 Koans. And, um, one of his verses, he wrote a verse to each case. It has these two lines, not using steps or ladders, jumping from the cliff with hands free. Uh, you know, the steps or ladders are all of our thinking, all of our understanding, our concepts. Like we [00:27:00] see this even in science. It's beautiful. Physics now is getting ever closer to seeing the world that is basically empty. You know? Uh, they've gotten down to just, I, I can't remember how many zeroes after the decimal point there are now to, to this. Just, there's nothing at all. That's what we're made of, you know, and, but they ca they haven't yet made the last little leap possibly because there's still someone they're measuring. And when we're thinking, you know, there's still. This sort of, well, for one, there's the scaffolding of our assumptions, our thoughts, our habits, our patterns. You know, we're looking for something that fits in a framework that's already established. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: And what this invitation to those [00:28:00] questions, I named these sort of fundamental questions that takes a leap. Kevin Rose: Well, you mentioned Koans, but I think a lot of people listening wouldn't be familiar with what that is. What, what are these, what are these special little passages and, and how did they come about? Yeah. Valerie Frostman: The Koans, what are they? They are, they, they're a record of, uh, exchanges between Zen or Chan or Zen masters, uh, or between a master and a disciple, sometimes several disciples. And they, they contain, uh, a kind of seed of awakening. The masters are sharing their world, this world, or you know, they're trying to help a student. Wake up to it. Some of them are [00:29:00] extremely short. Some of them are a little longer, more like a story, but they, you know, developed in, uh, mainly in China during the Tongue Dynasty. We have, uh, these collections of them that have been handed down, uh, compiled, you know, 11th, 12th century. Well, the transmission of light was in 1,301 begins usually with a, you know, famous sort of entry level koan that could take a, you could keep company with for a long time. You could really practice for a long time. And there are, there are several of those, but you know, the most famous one is this Koan Mo from Josu or Chacho, this Chinese master. Eighth, ninth century. [00:30:00] And a monk comes and asks, does a dog have Buddha nature or not? And Josu says, Mo, he would've said Woo in Chinese. But it has now come to us through the Japanese Moo. And as you know, when you're given this ko on you, you just practice with Moo. And uh, Duggan wrote about this Moo, he's the only master who actually said Moo is. And he said, Moo is a sun with stone melting power. You know, it's been described in many ways, but uh, the. You know, the student is given this co-ed. If, if one comes [00:31:00] really with those fundamental questions. Uh, like when my, when I first met Ruben face to face, my teacher, my root teacher, he asked me, what brings you here? And maybe I was lucky that I, I had missed the last introductory talk and because of his schedule that they wanted me to go go ahead and see him. And so I didn't have this template that I laid out here over these four reasons, you know, like you're supposed to say, which, which reason in the spectrum, right? I didn't know that. So he just, he asked the question, what brings you here? And what just lapped out really forethought was, I want to be my true self, just this. Longing for authenticity for not any gap. [00:32:00] So he gave me Moo and it was really like receiving, uh, a jewel. Actually it is sometimes described that way. A this precious jewel, or sometimes it's described as the sharpest sword. And I went and began to sit with it. And maybe during the first week, I, I worried the question a little, does a dog have Buddha nature or not? You know. Kevin Rose: Do I Valerie Frostman: have Buddha Nature? Kevin Rose: This? Can you explain to people what would Buddha Nature actually mean? And then what does it mean to sit with something? Yeah. How would you instruct them to do so and what would they, what should they be doing in those first few, you know, weeks and months? Valerie Frostman: Yes, yes. So it's so simple. Uh, I usually say, uh, you [00:33:00] know, encourage them not to worry the question, but just to, uh, settle into your sitting. Some people may have a little body scan so they can just get into a place of balance, release, sort of poise in the body, maybe take a few breaths so you, you settle in to the breath and then when you're ready, you just invite in. Boo. Uh, in the beginning it may seem like just this sound that you're riding on the breath through the whole exhale. So just silently letting boo ride the whole exhale. And, you know, then, uh, boo can [00:34:00] kind of over time I. Open up. So it, it, it can have this quality of sort of filling the whole space, not just your breath. Um, or it can, if sitting gets a little sluggish, you can kind of turn it up a bit so it's stronger, can have this power about it as well as this spaciousness. And then after a while I might invite a student to just check it out, off the cushion as well. Sometimes this happens so naturally, you know, if you're on the cushion, you're letting mu prints pervade everything, let it prevail. What, you know, what teacher says. So you're soaking in moo everything is, uh, oven off the cushion. You know, you might be. Doing something. What's it like if Mo does [00:35:00] this? Uh, going for a walk, washing the dishes in the shower. Um, so it can gradually become more and more free. Uh, we might get glimpses along the way of, of, um, yeah, one that happened to me, uh, when I was pretty deep into moo practice, but it was still fairly early on and we were doing a day of Zen, which is a common practice, like a little slice of that session I talked about, uh, just one day and we were doing this pattern of sitting 25 minutes, sits with five minutes of walking, and I was, what we say? Mooing, you know? Yeah. So every exhale is. And by then there was a starting to be a [00:36:00] sense that I am not really mooing. Moo is mooing and sort of the whole room is mooing, you know, uh, just talking to you about it. Now, this desk, this cup, this microphone, the computer is, and so I'm in the day of Zen and we're walking, and I remember exactly where I was in this little zendo taking a step, and with one step, all of a sudden the whole universe took a step. That may sound very foreign to, uh, someone hearing about this without experience, but, uh, it was, it was remarkable. It was such a strong and clear experience. Of this oneness, I would say this entirety. And in that, you know, second [00:37:00] my separate self that, you know, I could say I disappeared, just walking. And then in the next step came the thought. Did you see that? Did you see that? The whole world just took a step? And of course it was. But this, you know, so it could be a very beautiful dynamic practice. Um, and it's, it's one way to go at it. You know, earlier, just before this, you asked about Buddha nature. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: Because that's part of this question Kevin Rose: mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: That the monk asks, this Buddha nature, Buddha just means awake, awakened. Uh, so our awake nature, and is it just another phrase for the true nature, original nature, uh, what, what is real? What really is this, you know, that's [00:38:00] rising up right now in our talking to each other. What is it? And, uh, the tradition would say Buddha Nature. Uh, you know, at the same time, this monk may have thought, this is a really lofty. Reality. Uh, this is ultimate, absolute reality at, you know, it's clear and luminous. Maybe he had heard in the sutras and the tradition and the teachings does this lowly dog that can't even talk, you know, this mange creature that it wouldn't, dogs were not beloved at that time as they are now. So often does even that, you know, lowly dog have this lofty Kevin Rose: quality of Buddha nature. The answer here is, is so confusing. Yeah. Because in a sense, if we, if we were to do, and, and [00:39:00] please correct me if I'm wrong here, it, but if the literal translation of MO is a lot more like. Not, or nil or nothing, or no. Right. Is is that? Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, it sounds like it was a non-answer. Was it a non-answer to the back, to the monk? Valerie Frostman: Oh, I think it was an amazing answer we could say on just a surface level. Well, what you're saying is maybe it's a contradiction because the tradition, the sutras, the teaching all the way back to Buddha, all sentient beings have this Buddha nature Kevin Rose: mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: All sentient in sentient. That's what this world is. And the monk would've known that teaching. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: So he might come in with the, with the idea. Everything has Buddha Nature. Does even that dog have it Kevin Rose: Right. Valerie Frostman: Well, when Josh says no, uh, on a perhaps the most shallow level, you could say there's no [00:40:00] having or not having. If you're gonna ask, does it have it? No. Mm-hmm. That's what it is. But I, I feel it's infinitely more rich and profound than that. He this moo, this no has no opposite. He's actually showing the fact right there of what this dog is, what this Buddha nature is, what this monk is. And at the same time, maybe the brilliance of this response is he gives us a way to practice, a way to find what he's also presenting. Kevin Rose: So in this response. This is, uh, the most famous qu for, for newcomers to take up. They sit with this on exhale, as you mentioned, and then something [00:41:00] happens. Could be six months, could be 10 years, could be 20 years, something eventually with enough diligence, uh, and dedication. What happens? What do you notice? What do you see? What's the next step when someone comes to you and believes that they have figured they have an answer for you here? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. Well, Dogan called it, uh, dropping away a body and mind or falling away, you know? And with this new practice, it can happen and it can happen in myriads of ways. In an unguarded moment. Mm. Suddenly a sound, a sensation, even a thought. It's always in one given [00:42:00] moment and suddenly that sense of a separate self just falls. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: It goes. And as Dogan said, what can happen when in this vacancy? It's amazing that the whole world comes rushing in. So, you know, one aspect of this is this. Really clear experience of oneness. Like I had just a taste of in that step, but it's thorough enough that, uh, it doesn't come back in the next second. Mm-hmm. Like mine did. That sense of a separate self. And the other part of it is, so this, it was one [00:43:00] reality. This, you know, one boundlessness where everywhere you turn, whatever you, whatever you see, that's you, that's your real face. And another aspect of that is whatever you pick up. Any one thing is all of it. Just all of it. And then the other aspect we hear about in this experience is this kind of emptiness. You know, the, the world that seemed to have fixity and substance is suddenly, uh, devoid of that very transparent, luminous, as I mentioned. And you know, this. [00:44:00] Kind of capacity is there, but it, the, the creativity of it just comes forth sort of moment to moment, always just right, right now. And, you know, a student could have a, a real opening and maybe not, I haven't described all of this in great detail, but they might not see it all. But, but there's an aspect of it that has just become so clear that's opened up that they can come in and, uh, you know, they might not come and say, they might come in and say, I've had an experience. And then you, you begin there. I remember coming into Ruben and this had just fallen open in the middle of a session. And I was in line for dosan, and fortunately it was dosan is the face-to-face meeting with the teacher. Just it's, it's so beautiful, this [00:45:00] tradition in Zen, uh, one to one. And, um, so there were this big, a big session. So there were five pe five places to wait. And by the time I moved to the first mat and cushion, right before the door, my lap was wet with silent tears. I, and I went in and sat down before him, and he looked at me and said, what's happening at, at first I said, nothing, you know, and, and then gradually with his insight and wisdom and compassion, uh. It became, I mean, it didn't take very long for it just to blossom. And there are traditional set of checking questions around this. The, then you come, what is Moo? What is [00:46:00] moo? You know, and I just was able to say, and, and then all these checking questions just seemed like, like you're asking me about, you know, if this cup is full or if this pencil is yellow or Right. It was just, it was like this very natural world that we're in that has just fallen open and all of its dynamic creativity and intimacy. You know, Kevin, I, I just have to mention it just came to mind when we were in that, uh, lovely small session that we did together in April. Um. And at one point we were sitting, facing in so facing one another. And then after that we had a Q and A period. And you mentioned that you were sitting and [00:47:00] mooing mm-hmm. And the floor started to breathe. Yeah. You're breathing and the floor started to breathe. Kevin Rose: Yes. Valerie Frostman: And that reminded me of that single step. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: You know, just kind of a signpost. Kevin Rose: Yeah. Yeah. That was, um, unexpected. Um, well, speaking of unexpected, it, it seems that, I don't know if this is a hindrance or not, but the more you try to, I. Pursue with a sense of, I want, I, I want to obtain this, I want to go after this, I want to figure this out. Uh, you know, there's, there's a lot of I in there and it feels like, from what I've read and a little bit of coaching that I've received, [00:48:00] it tends to hide from people that do that well, Valerie Frostman: because Kevin Rose: why? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. It's what, what it is that we're looking for, you know, in this pursuit. Which is it, it is, uh, Roshi would say you're pursuing your true self, but it's not something outside yourself. And so when we try to get it, it's like we're reaching for something. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: Uh. And it, it, again, you can't get it. You are, it, uh, you know, this wonderful famous koan between Jo Chu and his master, um, nonsense, oh, uh, 40 years his master and early on, but Joshi was, was deep into [00:49:00] practice, but he goes to nonsense and he asks, what is the way? And, uh, you know, that's pretty fundamental question and nonsense says ordinary mind is the way. And Josh, who says, should I turn toward it or not? And nonsense says, if you turn toward it, you go against it. You know, like if you're reaching for this, you're actually deluded about it. You know, uh, you've got an idea in mind about it. Mm. And, and Josh who says, well, if I don't turn toward it, um, how will I know it's the way? How will I know the way does not belong to knowing or not knowing not success. Kevin Rose: Of course. That's the answer, the most zen answer ever. Valerie Frostman: You know, when you really discover this, it's as vast and [00:50:00] boundless as the great empty firmament. How could it depend on right or wrong? You know? It just doesn't divide that way. Mm. Uh, when we're trying, as you said it, so well, there's an eye involved in that, the, the little eye. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: And so really, uh, our sitting is, is just this opportunity to. Let that dissolve, let that go quiet. Let it, you know what's going on. We, and you can sort of start to see that it's not even like, I have to let go of this eye, even though it, it can feel like that there's not really, it doesn't exist as we imagine, you know, we, we have this sense of a fixed self at the center of our experience that's separate from everything else. That is an idea that, uh, when it goes, it's such a [00:51:00] relief. But then you see, oh, it never was there the way I thought. Kevin Rose: If that is true and someone feels that it must be a fantastic relief because if, if you see that it was all an illusion, I'm assuming, then you're also seeing that there is no death as well. Valerie Frostman: Yeah, I mean. It does when these experiences are really clear, it resolves the matter of life and death. It really does. Kevin Rose: To a point where you just don't care. To a point where you're at ease with the whole thing. Because obviously the body will Yes. Eventually pass. Yes. So how do you right size that for someone that has yet to experience this? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. It's not that you don't care, it's really something. In fact, uh, if ever that creeps in, [00:52:00] like dismissing, you know, all of the suffering in the world, and if I feel like, well, um, it's all one and it's all empty, so it doesn't really matter. That's conceptual. That's not it. And I think coming to this realization that. Who we truly are just doesn't die. That may take more than one experience and typically in a lifetime of practice, one does have a series of openings, you know? Um, and over time, ease, freedom, peace, compassion. Yeah. So the matter of life and death, it's just endlessly to be [00:53:00] explored, but the problem of death is dissolved. Kevin Rose: Hmm. How far into your practice were you when you realized that for yourself? Valerie Frostman: Hmm. I mean, uh, right at the beginning there were clear inklings of that. Uh, it, it's sort of wonderful the way it keeps opening, um, over time, you know, with this practice of head a series of really memorable experiences that each one sort of just was a big shift. It's almost like different aspects of this reality have. Have come home in, in those experiences, one of them, uh, a very clear sense of everything [00:54:00] just collapsing, uh, the joy that came with that. So it, it, it's strange language if you know, from, from maybe outside of this. But, uh, yeah, that was deeply liberating. Uh, and there a sense of the utter newness of, you know, just even to say moment is, is not quite getting at it, but that became so clear. And, um, yeah, I would say with, with that collapsing, I couldn't. You know, it felt like a great, resolving a cut of everything, though my, you know, [00:55:00] my individual life didn't change. Uh, I was still doing all the same things and, uh, but much more freedom. And there was another experience later on, very unexpected again in a session. This one in Europe, Han Roshi was guiding and I was sitting very near him when he gave that talk. And then I was the next person in line for this doan or face-to-face interview. After the talk. I went in and I, at the very beginning, I just said, Roshi, if my whole life consistent of just hearing that talk, it would be complete. It just came out. It was true. He, you know, a, a tear left one of his eyes, a [00:56:00] single tear, uh, kind of fell into his lap. And he just said, is that right? I didn't have time to prepare. It was so bare. You know, it's simple. Mm-hmm. And we did the koan, and then I went back to my seat. When I sat down and the zendo, I suddenly had a, a, I guess, a vision. Um. It was like I was, I, I felt myself being up in the corner of the room and I was in a hospital bed dying surrounded by family and doctors, and it was very quick. But I died. I saw myself die. And sometimes in sitting, we have visions and things happen and you just, you just let it go. I mean, I, I did too. I, I was just, [00:57:00] that happened. I went back to, you know, mooing and when it, when the bell rang and we stood up and started walking around the zendo, I, I was gone. I, I really had just. Disappeared and everything else seemed very translucent, transparent, and the day unfolded. We went to lunch and you did just reaching for the bread basket and passing the food. And there it was just nothing going on. And yet, very beautiful. And I went up to my room afterward and there was a break and you know, what am I gonna do? I was just in this state of wonder and I thought, oh, I'll take a shower. You know what, what would it be like to take a shower? What's it gonna be like with no [00:58:00] body? Kevin Rose: Yeah. Valerie Frostman: And so I just sort of, you know, got ready. He turned on the water, felt that it was warm, stepped in, and the moment that water hit my body. I suddenly saw, uh, all the suffering that has ever happened that will ever happen that's going on right now. I mean, it was, you know, war rape, oppression, hunger, illiteracy, just, it was, it was really all at once, all now, and, uh, utterly overwhelming. I was down on my knees sobbing and, you know, the, the sobbing, [00:59:00] I don't know how many, how long that went on. It was, it was a while. Finally, I turned off the water and got out and it was sort of standing there, uh, kind of. Taken by this and reeling in a sense, but then, uh, it was as if Reuben and Yara Cohen, Roshi Rio Roche's father, who I never met, uh, great respect, but they were on either side for just a second. And I felt this little tug like back into the world, this world, everyday world. And, uh, yeah, I dried off and I rested for 10 minutes and went back to the set. And somehow that experience of this, this, uh, [01:00:00] remarkable grace, and I don't think it would've been possible if I had been there. You know, because we, if there's any sense of a container, you just can't fathom it and you can't survive it. You can't, you know, but to, to see this absolute oneness of all human suffering that is a boundless heart, that really was another whole level of resolution. I mean, I'm trying to explain it. It's not, it's really beyond understanding, but the effect of, uh, you know, that, well, great [01:01:00] gratitude, just, there's no separation. Kevin Rose: I don't know how you would've gone back out after 10 minutes into your seat after a revelation of that magnitude hitting you. I mean, that seems like, wow. How did you recover from that? I, in some sense. And how did that turn into a positive thing for you? Yeah, Valerie Frostman: that's the wild thing. Yeah. It was, it was, it was a gift. It was, it was really, if, if I look at this whole life, it might have been the greatest gift that moment. Kevin Rose: Why? Why is that? Why was that? Some people would call that a nightmare Valerie Frostman: because, uh, this, to really see this one heart at, at also so clear all time now, um, and to be able to. Be with that suffering, you know, not [01:02:00] separate from it. Uh, just, you know, to see our humanity in that kind of intimacy. I mean, now I'm just trying to describe, but mm-hmm. It was never, uh, a nightmare. I mean, the, the vision was a horror, but, uh, it just broke everything wide open. Kevin Rose: When you come back to this world and this body and you, you're like, okay, well I, I can still, I have a body, you know, the shower is really, you know, I, I still need soap, it turns out. Yeah. How does that reframe you in a sense that makes you more compassionate for the world, that really allows you to return in a capacity of you want to help? Is there a direct line between that experience and that type of feeling? Yes. I think there Valerie Frostman: is, this though is a characteristic of, of all of these kinds of [01:03:00] openings, gratitude and how can I help sort of wanting to serve is just an inclination that comes from this, you know, and we find what's ours to do. I mean, you're serving right now for me that, that experience I just described turns me towards other people with just, uh, uh, amazed at the humanity and people, you know, and it seems more and more apparent just this human life. But I, I think we can go through it without ever really seeing Kevin Rose: that. When I read some of these accounts of people having these awakening or experiences, oftentimes there's a description of this idea of a lifting of the veil or a world that is seen through a, a fresh set of eyes and, and a sense of beauty and [01:04:00] awe or everything around them. Talk about intimacy, like a new layer of intimacy. And then also that's coupled with this idea of this deep sensation of kind of coming home to something that you've always known has been there. And to your point earlier about not trying to get something new, but actually revealing about what was always there. Yeah. What is it like to look at the world through those eyes after that moment occurs? Valerie Frostman: Well, it's uh, there's great joy and wonder, like, how can this be, you know? Things just come forth, uh, at a kind of beauty as well. Uh, one, one aspect of this experience is that, um, distance kind of falls away. It does, uh.[01:05:00] I remember being at, at one of these retreats up in Canada, uh, long ago, and another opening had come and I was just out for a walk after dinner and there was a, a lake and then a mountain on the other side of the lake. Uh, very beautiful. We were in Canton, uh, Ontario, and all of a sudden the mountain is, you know, right here, right, right. Where I'm walking. And that there's a, there's a way that things just come forth and they come forward and they're, they are so near, and, you know, you use that word intimacy, which, uh, Dogan says, uh, awakening is intimacy with all things excluding nothing. Kevin Rose: Hmm. If you were to introduce me to someone that knew you prior to your.[01:06:00] You're way down the zen path. What would they say has changed in you? Is the road rage gone? Like, what is day-to-day life? How has it changed? Yeah. Do you still argue with your partner? Like people must be wondering, like, okay, if you have this level of depth and intimacy, does it lead to a different life? Or, or is there still struggles and trials and tribulations that you personally run into? And, and how, how has that changed? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin, I mean, I, it's, it's not such a mystery, you know, we all have these personalities. I, I remember someone once asked Ruben, what is a human personality? And he just right away said, a lump of karma. And I'm still that lump, but. It's much less tightly held together. Still [01:07:00] can get caught by these what's in calls, the three poisons, you know, this, uh, greed, anger, ignorance or wanting, not wanting and just not seeing, but usually very quickly, if that comes up, it shows itself and it just goes, there's a much easier way of being in the world. And yeah, more compassion. Just more sense of love. Uh, when I was growing up, I, I was lucky to have a loving family, and they, even occasionally without proselytizing, would talk about unconditional love. I remember thinking in high school and even my early twenties, that's a beautiful concept and really fitting for others, but not for me. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Valerie Frostman: You know, there's just, we, we all have [01:08:00] some sense of being flawed and adequate. Um, whatever our experience, I, I think it would be unusual not to have that, and I had it in a big measure. I really, I think I have kind of a perfectionist tendency, you know, if you just think about what your lump of karma is. Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. And, Valerie Frostman: um. That has changed, by the way, in a big Kevin Rose: way. Wow. That's interesting because yeah, I, I would imagine with a professional musician, you kind of have to be built that way. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It, it sure, Valerie Frostman: uh, worked out, you know, where you just, you, you're going for perfection. You just don't make mistakes. Or if you do, it's, you know, you never forget it. Uh, but you know, this unconditional love, and when I had that very first opening that I described long ago, that was a [01:09:00] big shift. Like I realized, oh, this unconditional love, it's not something you give or receive, it's what you are. Kevin Rose: Mm. Valerie Frostman: You don't have it. You are it. And so already it started to just, I. Free up, you know, and I mean, with that comes more humor, you know, uh, just more ease. And, you know, it may also be that now, you know, no longer being a professional musician, I'm, but now, you know, almost every week I give a zen talk. I used to really have to navigate stage fright as a musician. Uh, it was, it was just part of this lump of karma. Mm-hmm. This isn't a performance performance. So when, you know, I prepare these talks and give them, and there's, it's just not [01:10:00] like that. You are just sharing what you can and maybe it's fallible, you know? Mm-hmm. Or it, or it often will feel like, well, I'm not even doing this. It's just the dharma. But I don't mean to make that sound lofty. It's just, uh, a really different, that sense of perfectionism or the way we hold onto things. Is it, I really feel with a pretty reg good regularity that my hands are empty. Kevin Rose: What do you mean by your hands are empty? Valerie Frostman: Uh, ah, well in, you know, in his, in the zen sense, in the truest sense. There's really not only nothing to hold onto whatsoever, but I don't even have any hands. But then there's also the, [01:11:00] just the more common sense of that where I, I'm not trying to control this Kevin Rose: situation. Mm. I love that there's so much peace that comes with that, just letting go of control. Valerie Frostman: Yeah. Yeah. Kevin Rose: One of the things that I want to make sure that we touch on for this interview is that when I talk to friends of mine about taking meditation seriously or going deeper into practice, something that professionals can point to is saying, I don't wanna lose my edge. I don't want to. I'm not ready to dedicate my life to a practice like that because I'm afraid that I might just become so nonchalant about everything that nothing really matters, and I just, like, I'm no longer a working professional or whatever it may be. Yeah. One of the, one of the reasons I was drawn to the Sambo Zen was because I've, [01:12:00] I've seen that is, that is absolutely not the case. Can you, can you speak to that a bit and how Zen works for the everyday person and even the professional? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. I mean, a practice like this is not going to take away an edge. It, it may, uh, free it actually to be, uh, more spontaneous and more, uh, what is it? Um, more true. So you don't have to. Put another head on top of your head to, to be, uh, to do something that you're passionate about in the world. I mean, and of course, Sambo z our, our Abbott is this international businessman who thrives at his work Kevin Rose: still today. And his, Valerie Frostman: yeah. And you know, many of his employees don't, may not even [01:13:00] know that he's a, you know, a zen master, the Abbott of this tradition. He, but they do see his humanity. When I started in and really got deep into this practice, my playing, uh. I was so helped by that. You know, I, I just, I mean, we're helped in terms of, of course it cultivates flow to sit, of course it does. Mm-hmm. But this whole other level of freedom where you get out of the way, you're, you don't even have to get out of the way. There's nobody there doing, you know, all these things are happening and nobody's doing anything is incredible release of all of this extra effort and energy that we use to hold this complex of very dilutive ideas in place. And, you know, all of a sudden you have all of this [01:14:00] freed up energy to do what you really care about. Kevin Rose: You're probably sitting there with 30% overhead of cognitive burden around all of the little things that you shouldn't even be carrying around to begin with. That's right. Valerie Frostman: Yeah. Yeah. There's a nice phrase from this master Faia and Hogan who said, I suddenly realize the fresh breeze that rises up when the great burden is laid down and yeah. That, that breeze can carry you through the day, you know? Kevin Rose: Mm-hmm. Yeah. For me, this is a no-brainer to have a a, a practice that I have started to build over the last few years is it's been, I just have always been drawn, I've always had this feeling that there's something that I just am not fully seeing. I felt like there's something so much deeper here that I, it's, it's just like, it's in my, yeah. There's just [01:15:00] something I'm unaware of. Yeah. And it's, I, it's here, but it's, I haven't seen it, but I know it to be true. Yeah. And that's the weirdest feeling. I don't know if I'm making any sense at all. Yeah, Valerie Frostman: you are absolutely making sense, Kevin. And it's visible in you. Actually, Kevin Rose: it, it feels true to me. Oh God. I, we could get on a rabbit hole for hours here, but like the, the thing that really messed me up, uh, in a good way a couple months ago is when I was sitting, it became clear to me that there is no other time to sit than right now. And I also realize the only time I can ever have a moment of insight or awakening or anything is also right now and time. Mm. Just collapsed in on [01:16:00] itself a bit in that there was like almost no. Yeah. Wow. Valerie Frostman: That that's so Kevin Rose: true. Yeah. Because there's not, it's, it's like, it's like the tip of a burning match, but that can't burn because there's no weight roofer to go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. Oh yeah. But that's just like a, a, a taste. I don't have any insight. I don't have any real lasting anything. Yeah. There's just these weird little moments that start to happen the more that you sit. Yeah. Valerie Frostman: That, oh, it's so beautiful. You're, you're calling up this, uh, this line from moan after when he has this commentary on Moo and he's, you know, 'cause he had such a powerful. Opening with his koan after six years for him. But he's a monk. He's sitting all day, every day. You know, he's but six years. And, and the la end of that commentary, he said it's, it's like a candle that's lit by a single [01:17:00] touch of flame. Hmm. A single touch of fire, you know? And that it's now is the only time. And you know, it's not some future and now is all time, which is just like Kevin Rose: Right. How, right. Valerie Frostman: There's Kevin Rose: nothing hacking. So break breakdown for those listening. What does, I'm curious about Zen. I'm Zen curious. And I want to start a practice look like in terms of commitment, what does, I'm ready to take it the next level. And then what does a path for someone that really eventually, and I'm not saying that obviously people don't need to jump into this version, but what would you consider to be a senior kind of very serious student that wants to take their practice to the next level? Meaning like some, some someone, [01:18:00] not that I'm a senior student, but someone like myself that says, okay, I'm willing to commit, call it 50 minutes a day in, in meditation, along with a couple silent retreats per year of seven days. Is that, is that, what do those buckets look like for people that are curious? Valerie Frostman: Yeah. Starting out it, you know, um. I think it's really helpful just to get some kind of good guidance so that you, um, can figure out these basics of posture, breathing, stowing the mind. Kevin Rose: Um, and you do an introduction course at Mountain Cloud as well as on Zoom. Valerie Frostman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're really available now, uh, these courses on the basics of Zen and just how to learn to sit and then it, it's, it's pretty simple. You, I would suggest, uh, if possible setting up a place in your house where you sit. That also can be simple. It can, you know, if [01:19:00] you don't have room, you can, but getting, uh, basic equipment like, you know, a fu or cushion that really fits your body. And I like to have a mat under it, what we call a bouton, just to support my knees. Um, it's also fine to sit in a chair, uh, you know, a, a good introduction will just show the various postures and start sitting and find out what it's like for yourself. You might, you know, if somebody's really fidgety or feels like I just can't do this five minutes a day, for starters, just to get, just to enter in, to dip in the toe, as you said, and then widen that to 10 minutes a day, more important than, um, how long you can sit is a regularity. Mm-hmm. So to, to really cultivate a daily practice, something that supports that is, if there can, it can be at the same time every day. Uh, you know, just because of our schedules, how [01:20:00] it's so easy to let something like that go. I don't have time today. Mm-hmm. Um, I prefer sitting in the morning because I like the way it sets up the day and then I know it's, I haven't missed it. Mm-hmm. You know, it's just ea by the time the afternoon or evening come, all the more things could be getting in the way. So for starters, if somebody is in a situation where they could go once a week and sit with a group, I think that's a great support. Gradually expanding that time. 10 minutes, 15, 20. Maybe For me, I sit 25 minutes and if. If I can, I, I walk even at home for five minutes and sit again for 25. We do that online, every d every morning at Mountain Cloud. So that's, I often will hook in with that, uh, or go there. But if I'm teaching a lot of students, I've [01:21:00] just, I'm home next level. I think it would be really helpful to get a teacher, if possible, a guide, especially if somebody is interested in coon training, Coon study this practice. You really want a teacher then, but even just for some practice guidance now and then checking in, uh, can be very helpful. And trying out a day of Zen, trying out a shorter sessions, you know, this would be the middle sort of basket. And then for yourself, what you described, it sounds really. Really good, you know, to, to have a couple session a year. Mm-hmm. Those are so helpful and a daily practice. And you have a wonderful guide. So, you know, you, you are sort of the example really, uh, of a natural way to [01:22:00] do this in a committed way and how that has evolved to that for you. Kevin Rose: I will say that the biggest unlock for me, you know, I, I stop drinking. And when you have that extra window at night and it's not post dinner when you've had a couple drinks and then you're like, well, there's no way I'm doing it now. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And then all of a sudden my kids go down for bed. I'm gonna sit for my second sit, you know? And it's, and that was never available to me before. Yeah. And it was just such a powerful unlock to have that. Valerie Frostman: Yeah. I, I really applaud that and agree that it's wonderful to frame the day and sitting, and also to sit kind of when you're gonna unwind and go to bed mm-hmm. Kevin Rose: You know, Valerie Frostman: just opens out into the night. Kevin Rose: Yeah. Valerie Frostman: Yeah. If you've had, if you've done some partying, it's not as easy to do that. It's [01:23:00] true. Kevin Rose: I'm at that point in my life where I realize I'm in my late forties, and if I want to give this practice my all over the next couple of decades and really go all in, I have to prioritize it. It's not about finding time. It's about making time for it, you know? And that's a slight little shift in the way that you frame it internally, at least for myself, you know? Yeah. Yeah, that's Valerie Frostman: well said. Kevin Rose: I would love to tell people where to find you is the best place to go to mountain cloud.org. Valerie Frostman: Yes. Mountain cloud.org. Yeah. And, uh, we are offering sitting every day online and, uh, weekly dharma talk. And every week there's a Wisdom Wednesday where, you know, there's a more informal talk and q and a and there there's teaching available or you know, I'm the guiding teacher, but, uh, we have three others who also are available to work with students. So [01:24:00] really, uh, it's a great joy when people reach out. And also Mountain Cloud is a great place to visit in Santa Fe. Oh, it's Kevin Rose: the best. Valerie Frostman: And uh, you know, we have people come here kind of on pilgrimage. They can do a personal retreat for any length of time, or we also have a small residency program where people who can, will come and stay a month or sometimes two or three months. Uh, so all of that's available and yeah, it's a place of beauty and community. Quiet. Kevin Rose: One last question for you before we go. This one is a, I say this question, it's very personal to me. It's raw, but I like that about this podcast. And then I want to be able to bring up stuff that's a little bit more personal. One of the hardest things for me to deal with was the loss of my father. And this was a while ago. This was over a decade ago, but I still really miss him. I'm curious. [01:25:00] How do you feel about those that you've lost in life? N knowing what you know, Valerie Frostman: uh, what a touching question. Yeah. What came up when you were saying was this, uh, this may may sound a bit distant from it, but a memory just briefly of being, having been in a week with Rio Roshi and he came down to the dining hall, getting ready to leave so that we could wish him well, you know, say goodbye. And when I came to him, just what leapt out was Roshi, please don't leave. And he just wrote and totally said, I can never leave you. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: And. That moment for you with all time. Now there's also [01:26:00] really, he, he couldn't go anywhere, and of course he went to the airport and got on a plane. I'm not, but I, that was one of those moments where I know this is so true. I've also lost my parents. My father was very close to, uh, both parents. But, um, yeah, I, I mean, I don't know when that, that kind of ache of missing, which of course does come up, but where it, it sort of makes the turn to just this. Great gratitude. Kevin Rose: Yeah. You know, I get hits of that because I realize that the ache and missing is really just love. Yeah. It's just love. It's just love. Yeah. All it, all it means is that I [01:27:00] love this guy so much. Yeah. Yeah. That it just is just pure love sitting there. Raw as could be. Yeah. Yeah. Valerie Frostman: I know. And I mean, I just, I know you must also sense him around and close and Yeah, yeah, me too. Uh, and of course in this human way, we just, we just sense that, and also in, in this way, where we talked about mo, you know, parading everything, uh. That reality. I mean, you know, you, I remember when we had a, a really beautiful, important zen teacher. A woman died, you know, a late fifties so early, and, [01:28:00] uh, she missed her. But he just said, you know, I look up and see, you know, this tree or the fence post. You are right here. You're right here. Kevin Rose: Hmm. Valerie Frostman: He was so confident and that, yeah. So Dear Kevin Rose: Valerie, thank you for this interview. Thank you for your time and your practice. Every time I run into you, it's such a blessing to see you. Oh, thank you Kevin. Valerie Frostman: Yeah, Kevin Rose: so, so thank you for, for everything over the last few years of getting to know you. So appreciate it. Valerie Frostman: Yeah, it's really a joy. So let's go straight on.