Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine Is a 4-Letter Word. My guest today is Kevin Schnieders. So welcome to the show, Kevin.

Kevin: Hey, thanks, Lori. Thanks for having me.

Lori: Absolutely, I'm really excited for this conversation, because I just have a feeling it's just gonna be, it's gonna be not just entertaining, but also valuable. I think you have a lot of value to share. So let's jump right in and tell me what the values and beliefs were that you were raised with. I know before I hit record, we started talking a little bit about your family. So tell me that.

Kevin: Yeah, thanks Lori. I was so lucky growing up, right? I was one of those kids, we didn't have a lot of money, but we never wanted for anything. Older brother, younger sister, so middle kid. And my parents, think my dad passed unfortunately a few years ago, but my mom now, I think they would want to hear me say, right, that it was about treating everyone well. And that is certainly part of what we talked about a lot, treating everyone with great dignity and finding the best in other people.

And also a work ethic that I got from my dad. I used to joke, Lori, that I only saw my dad before he passed away for his 77 years in two positions, completely vertical or completely horizontal. So he was either asleep on the couch or working either around the house or working at work. And he just had an incredible work ethic. And I know I picked a lot of that up as we mostly do as kids just from observing more than talking about it.

Lori: We were talking also before I hit record that when you were in college, you were focused on becoming a sports reporter. And so I'm curious, since you only saw your dad in those two positions, was he an influence in your love of sports?

Kevin: Not especially. It's so interesting, right? So my mom was a professional cheerleader. My mom was a Pittsburgh Steelers cheerleader for two seasons, which I thought was the coolest thing growing up. And so my folks were originally from Pittsburgh. They moved when they were 21 to Detroit. So I was born and raised in Michigan, but we love the Pittsburgh Steelers. And so I watched every Steelers game with my dad from seven years old until he passed away. And the fact that my mom was a cheerleader made me feel like there was a connection to the team and they would have her back occasionally to honor the cheerleaders and the history there.

So I just, you know, more than anything, Lori, my love of sports came from having a very bright older brother. So my older brother was incredibly talented academically. And I think like most kids, you're like, well, what's my space here, right? Where can I, and so I wasn't really aware of those things, but at a very young age, I was, you know, I had some ability in athletics and pursued every sport.

I do think there was some hyperactivity too where I had to be moving. And so I just, I love sports, played three sports in high school, played sports in college. So now, that considered, you know, at that time I considered that to be my first love is this with sports. And when in school said, hey, I want to be a sportscaster. And then, you know, my parents being extraordinary, which they were, my mom is.

They said, hey, you're going to be a great sportscaster. But just in case, why don't you get a certificate to teach? And so I did and loved teaching. I just typically will see what's great about a situation or what I can do to be additive there.

And so loved teaching and just kind of fell into one conversation with my dad. And he told me about a project that they were doing at EDSI and never thought I'd have anything to do with this place full time. We all had to work here growing up or got to work here growing up. And then he, I remember vividly, Lori, when I went into his office and I helped him out with some curriculum.

And I said, dad, think I want to do this full time. And he said, I know why. And he paused and I said, well, why? And he said, because you love people. And I said, I know, I thought I loved sports, but I love people. And when I look back on it, all the sports that I loved were Sports Illustrated about like reading Sports Illustrated about people's stories.

Reading biographies and autobiographies, watching the Olympics to hear their backstories. So for me, it was about this amazing love of people that I was kind of misconstruing for just a love of sports. But I really love, even today, I don't watch a lot of sports, but I love watching people excel and pursue and stuff like that. So sorry, long answer, Lori. I apologize.

Lori: No, I love it. I love those stories too. watching the Olympics and the sports, like what are the people's stories? How did they get where they are? Yeah, and so did your dad start this company?

Kevin: He did in 1979. He was a school employee. He so he taught for about seven years, then he was an administrator. So he was a vocational director and he was going to be a superintendent. And he went home and told my mom, I can't do it. Not one more day. He just didn't enjoy administration. He loved being a teacher and he kind of got forced into administration and didn't enjoy it.

And so my mom said, well, great. but you do have a salary and a pension and medical benefits, so go ahead and figure it out. And I always tell my friends and family the story that without my mom's courage, right? Because we usually honor the founder and the courage that my dad had, which was significant to do that.

But the courage that my mom had to believe in my dad that way, he would not have been able to do it without her. She literally would not have given him permission, I think. And so we had an 11 year old, I was seven and my sister was two. And so just to sit down in the basement at a steel desk and start making dials is something that takes an incredible amount of courage. And company was always about 15 people and did about I don't know, probably two, 300,000 in revenue doing consulting work.

And that was great. And he never wanted for anything else. And then we sort of both got accidentally into what we call workforce development together and helping people find jobs. And what was so cool, Lori, is neither one of us had a clue about what we were doing that first day. So most of the time in family businesses, you've had a parent that's been doing it for 35 years. And in that area of business, my dad and I really had very little to no experience.

And so we were just helping people in an honest way that we thought they would need our help. And so you imagine a person who's unemployed, long-term or recent, going from point A to point B of having a job that's fulfilling and rewarding, we understood B. Like we didn't understand anything about A, like where they were or welfare to work or any of that. And so we figured that out together, which was just joyful for 13 years. I mean, 99 % of it was just a blast and I had a great time with my dad.

Lori: The interesting thing about that is a lot of times when you are, when kids are joining a family business, they have to kind of fight to make their own place because their parents or their, you know, grandparents, whoever started it, this is how we've always done things, right? And so you have to fit yourself into that, or you have to fight to say, but modern

day world now requires this. You know, I think of like Gary V coming into, do you know Gary V? Coming into his family business and saying, hey, you know, there's a whole wide world over here that we haven't even explored. And, but for you to do that with your dad is, seems unusual in that you were both like, hey, let's go in this direction. It's totally new and we're both new at it.

Kevin: Yeah, well, it was so cool, Lori, and thanks for saying that because I think you have a great insight in terms of the family business about where it could be expanded, what the young people could bring to that, the next generation. We did it a little bit differently because of what you said. We were kind of both doing the same work together and expanding a company of 15 people to about 160 when he left and so big growth in the company.

And one of the things that I always tell people, we had four arguments in 13 years, which is a sign that we probably should have had 44 great conversations, but we had four arguments. So two times he fired me and two times I quit, right? And so each time, Lori, when this would happen, he'd go home and talk to my mom. And every morning then after these four arguments, he'd come in and say, hey, I talked to your mom.

Here's what we're gonna do. Well, after the last one, about six years before my dad retired, I purchased the company from him about 18 years ago, over 13 years, because he would say he's fair but not generous. So I bought the company over 13 years. And when he came in about six years before he left, Lori, he said, I talked to your mom and she told me what to do. She said, you love people and you do really well with people and I'm getting in your way. So you're going to do everything with HR and culture. He probably didn't even say culture. He said HR and operations. And I'm going to do everything with sales and banking.

So I tell every generation, family, like if you're going into business together, really be clear about what the skills are of that next person that second generation, third generation and give them carve out some carve out that can be described that specifically. HR and operations. What was crazy though, Lori, is we thought we were like confusing each other. There were a hundred people in the company that didn't know how to call like who for what. And so it's like, well, then they knew it was very clear. And so I think that clarity is one of the chief ways of being a great leader is how can you be clear? Can we, I want to double back to one of your questions because it was great. And I don't, I don't know that I answered it very well, but in our family, I'm really fortunate to have a 19 and a 16 year old daughter.

And my wife and I, there's no greater joy for us than parenting. And so she puts up with a lot of my crazy ideas. Wendy, my wife does. And so when you talk about values, that was the first thing that I brought to EDSI when I bought the company. And I didn't really know what I was doing, but we fell into show up, smile, and support. Those are our values of our company. You show up, you smile, and you support. And we define those words for what they mean. We don't mean you go around with my cheesy grin all the time, smiling at everybody, but you're positive in terms of your approach to how you're moving forward. So a long story.

I went to a friend of mine was, well he became a friend of mine, but he's speaking to a professional group and his kids were older at the time. And I went out to dinner with him when he was back in town. And I said, if you're, if you had it to do over again, our girls are only six and three. Like what would you do?

And he said, I would take the values that I've worked on in my company and I bring them home. And so I went home and I asked my wife if we could use show of smile support as our family values. And then we define those words differently than we do at EDSI. And then every Monday night we'd say, okay, this week we're working on keeping your commitments. This week we're working on always being honest. So they had a cadence of nine weeks in a row. They would go over a focused family value. And then I developed these, these coins that they got for gratitude.

And on the back, said, show up, smile, support. On the front, they had our family logo, which we didn't have a family logo. I came from a normal family. And so I developed one that has like a pizza slice and a travel and all the things that are important to us. And every time I catch them doing something right, I would give them one of these coins. And so people would say, Lori, like, do they have any monetary value? And I would say, no, I don't want to ruin it. So they have piles of these coins in their closets. And I just gave one to our daughter not too long ago.

She was doing something with the tennis lesson and the other girl wasn't at the same level but the coach called me and he said she made her feel great she was so kind so generous and I just told her that I gave her the coin she beamed right her face just lit up. Riley couldn't have been more excited to get it so values for us both at the company as a leader and at home have been so fundamental to like what I'm trying to do as a leader because you look I talked too much and I'm gonna say a lot but show up smile support is what they will always always remember so.

Lori: I freaking love this so much. First, all of the points you said and because yes, this is what they're going to remember and you're building those like rewarding the behavior or the culture that you want. And I'm all about gratitude. So I love that you created that and the fact that when you're sharing gratitude with your family or your employees, your teams, it doesn't have to cost anything. In fact, it's almost more valuable if it's not something that, it's certainly not money because there's one of my favorite books is called Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely. I forget what he calls it. But like if you go to somebody's house for dinner, you bring flowers or dessert or something like that. You don't stand up after dinner and go, hey, that was a great meal, let me write you a check. And at the same time, you wouldn't be paying your mortgage company with flowers, they expect money. But you don't wanna confuse those two things.

Kevin: No, it's huge, right? And you're doing such a beautiful thing, Lori, saying, hey, Fine Is a 4-Letter Word, right? And so you're really wanting to listen to people, wanting to know how they're doing. When you demonstrate gratitude, it could be as simple as just making sure that people know how much they're appreciated. Yes, but just spending time with them, showing how much you appreciate by just sitting down with someone who represents your company well and saying, how are you doing? Right? When I drive out of this building and seeing the people who are doing the landscaping, rolling down your window and saying thanks for all your efforts.

Thank you for what you're doing to help us, right? Just showing that gratitude to each person you come into contact with, it costs nothing, right? But it can be so transformational. I've certainly seen it with our girls, which has been fun. just didn't, like it's a big social experiment with kids, I know, but I just wanted to, I knew that word, was like a repeat. I just wanted to be on repeat with the things that were most important and yeah, they're the best and it's a fun effort. But there's so much transfer and crossover, Lori, between that and being a good leader at work, I think, is what you're trying to do in both spheres.

Lori: Yeah, and I think it's really important that you are living those values in both places, as opposed to a lot of times leaders feel like they have to be one thing at work and something different at home.

Kevin: Gosh, yeah, I was so fortunate not to have a lot of business training or business experience. I grew up with an entrepreneur. What a great blessing that was in many ways. I saw the perspective of the owner and what my dad had been through from seven to 22 or whenever I started working with them. So I knew that, right? I knew the practical applications, but I was not trained. And so as I came into the company as a leader, I just looked and said, well, what am I good at? Like, what can I bring? What can I offer to support and serve other people?

And it was all just about relationship and connection and people and being intentional about how folks are experiencing it. And how do you create an environment where they can be recognized as their true selves and be respected individually and choose to sacrifice a lot of that for the greater good of their team and the work that's being done. So yeah, it's a blast. You can tell I still have the same enthusiasm for it as I did when I walked into my dad's office and said, is what I want to do, because it's great joy and very, lucky.

Lori: Yeah, that's awesome. So with all this enthusiasm, because the show is called Fine Is a 4-Letter Word, was there ever a time where you were kind of going through and saying, yeah, everything's fine, but it wasn't fine?

Kevin: Yeah, you know what? More than I realized in a very specific way, think, Lori, two times in particular that I can think of in my life. I mentioned earlier that my brother was super smart and my parents never put that on me. But I realized that I was putting that on myself. And I'm talking perfect score on the ACT. I mean, just really gifted. And so coming up behind him four years later, wasn't like teachers said, hey, you don't seem as bright as your brother or anything like that. But I knew that A's and B's were OK.

But all of his As were different. So anyway, flash forward, I own the company at this point. I'm in a professional group. There's a guy named Sir Ken Robinson who just passed away a couple of years ago right after my dad. And Sir Ken was obviously knighted by the British government and he's working in education, but he came to speak to my professional group. So at this point, we're all together. There's about 140 business owners in a room. And he asks a simple question. How smart are you? Zero to 10.

And people, he's like, how many tens do we have in the audience? And I couldn't believe it was some people like raised their hand. I'm like, oh my gosh. And so then he says, okay, six. I think I raised my hand at six. Like how intelligent are you? But then he said, how creative are you? And I remember vividly where I was sitting positioned in this auditorium. And I raised my hand for like a 10 or nine creatively, right? From a creative standpoint. So afterwards he said, I've been doing this with people all over the world for dozens of years, thousands of times. There's two things that never happen.

One, no one ever asks me what kind of intelligence I'm talking about. They assume reading, writing, and arithmetic because that's all we care about in the UK and the United States. And he said the second thing is the people that raise their hand for a 10 out 10 intelligence have no embarrassment for saying there are five creativities, from a creative standpoint. He said, look, there's emotional intelligence, there's creative intelligence, there's all kinds of different ways to be intelligent, not just academically. And I remember going up and talking to Sir Ken afterwards with tears in my eyes, just tears in my eyes. And I said, you've changed my life. Like I've always been comparing my intelligence to someone who is a 10 out of 10 academically intelligent, but I've got all this that I feel like is a 10 out of 10 emotionally and creatively from a creative standpoint.

So it changed my life. And so if you would have asked me, I would have said I was fine. But I was carrying all this around for decades, my entire adult life of like, no, I'm not that smart. And no, that's my brother, right? That's his thing. That was one thing. Do you have time for another story, Lori?

Lori: Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Let's go.

Kevin: Because there's another point that's even more significant in my life. So right before the pandemic, again, I'm the guy that said, hey, I've been given a lot of gifts. I've been given a lot of people in my life that have invested in me. You put your head down and you work harder. And that's what fine meant to me, right? It is fine because it always worked out to this point and I'll figure it out. FIO, as we say at home. And so I was with a friend of mine, Jane Dutton, who is incredibly talented, internationally recognized academic at the University of Michigan. And I had been assigned in graduate school probably 10 of Jane's papers before I met her.

So to meet Jane was like a really fun thing and then to become a person that she knows over a decade and a half was really fun. So I was at a conference and Jane comes running across the room as only Jane would to just tell you something about yourself and how interested she is to see you and she goes hey I talked to a former student he's leaving you know this career applied to law school but he mentioned EDSI and you and I wanted to make sure you knew that in his letter of recommendation that he asked me to look at.

I said, Jane, that's really nice. Thank you. But how are you doing? You're just recently stepping away from teaching and how are you doing? She goes, my gosh, yesterday I took the greatest class I've ever taken. And I said, I'm going to sign up on Monday. And she goes, you don't even know what it is. I said, Jane, you just said it was the greatest class you've ever taken. So she said, well, it was on self-compassion. And it was through Kristin Neff and self-compassion. And I said, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm going to sign up on Monday.

And so I come back to the office and I said Jennifer I'm fortunate to have worked with the same administrative assistant for 19 years she's the most talented most effective person and I said Jen just sign me up for this class and at that time I don't have a desk now Lori I just have a locker but at that time I have a desk that was like eight feet away from Jennifer and I said sign me up you know no offices or anything in EDSI but I said sign me up for this class and she goes it's every Monday for eight weeks four hours it's like 32 hours.

Okay, we'll just block off my schedule. know, Jane said it's the best. Okay. She goes, well, it's only like $300. I go total? And she goes, yeah, I go, okay, well, just sign me up. I don't know. So this is what I'm invested in this. Like, I have no idea. I just go in because Jane told me to. I go to the first class on Dr. King's holiday and my wife happened to be home. She worked with schools and my daughters are home. And she goes, where are you going? And I go, I'm going to a self-compassion class. She goes, you don't have any trouble with self-compassion.

So I go to the first class, they give me a survey and I go, she was talking about self-esteem. She's still looking at me going, don't have any trouble with self-esteem. So I'm like, I had never once in my life ever looked in the mirror and said it's okay. Never once did I apply self-compassion to myself. Anyone you call right now, Lori, would say that I've probably given them as much or more compassion than anyone else they've ever met, but I never gave it to myself.

And it completely changed my life. And how fortunate am I that our last class was on video because the pandemic had begun. And I always tell people, Lori, if I didn't get my puppy and my self-compassion training, I don't know where I would have been at the end of the pandemic. Because those two things, as if they were sent from the heavens, just, they saved me. mean, it was, it completely changed my perspective on how I treated myself, which was very different.

Lori: That absolutely was sent from the heavens because I believe these things happen. And when you're paying attention, you heard what Jane said and you took action on what she recommended or what you thought was important. That's the two, I think, main pieces that a lot of people miss is getting those messages, those downloads, in whatever form they show up, and then taking action. A lot of people talk about, I would say inspired action.

Kevin: Thanks. Yeah, that's a great, what a great insight on your part.

Lori: Like, you know, people, there's more to working and being successful than just constantly doing. It's about paying attention to those messages and getting them and then taking action on those as opposed to just running through like you're robot, doing all the things that you think you're supposed to be doing. Cause that obviously was not something that you would have ever said, I'm supposed to be doing this to be a better leader.

Kevin: And I taught a class throughout the pandemic. There was an hour long from Kristen's material that I learned over 32 hours. I have a poster in my phone that I developed as an infographic that are just the reminders. And so every week I'll film a quick one minute gratitude video for our representatives. And I try to put in a piece of self-compassion in each one of those. Hey, these are the things that you can do for yourself today. You can write a self-compassionate letter. You can really do it as a study and be intentional about it.

Lori: Yes, so can you now look yourself in the mirror and say I love you to yourself?

Kevin: Yeah, I'm getting there, right, Lori? I think I'm getting there. I think I know my intentional behavior. I know my effort. And I think that's the part that I can appreciate when I look in the mirror is that no one's going to try harder to like really be generous to other people and show up for them. And so that part I appreciate. I certainly do. It's a weird thing.

Can I look in the mirror and say, love you? I haven't, right? And so I would say, I would have to answer your question honestly, no. But I don't, there's nothing about myself today that I would change and no part of my experience, right? When we look at like regrets that we have, I really do feel like it all led me to where I am. And as I tell the girls, our girls, our daughters, it's either great or I'm growing.

It’s going to be great or I'm growing. There's nothing else that's going to happen. And so I think that part of it is the pursuit of growth. Like I love aspects of what I'm trying to do and how I'm trying to live. I don't know that I've ever translated that into saying, hey, I love you. Even though I think it's key to, as Brene Brown would say, like talk to yourself like you talk to your best friend. Like that part of it, I get way better than I did before the class. And I just, when you would have said before 10 years ago, how are you doing? And I would have said, I'm great. I wouldn't have said fine, I would have said I'm great. And there were things that I uncovered almost accidentally that it's like, wow, I can't believe I was living that way and carrying that for so long. And so it just helps your, you in my mind, it helps your growth and development.

Lori: Yes, absolutely. so now, as how many employees do you have now?

Kevin: 856.

Lori: Wow, okay. And so how are you or are you, it sounds like you're inclined to, help them become better versions of themselves and be better at their roles in the company?

Kevin: Yeah, sorry, Lori, I didn't mean to cut you off. I apologize. It's one of the descriptors of our values, which says I am the best me that I can be today. So there is definitely agency there. There's definitely what we can do. There's also responsibility that business leaders have to create that environment for people to be the best version of who they are, right? So we don't put too much on them. I always say we spread pressure at EDSI like butter on bread.

Not hammer in the nail, right? Like too often people are just turning to the next person and saying, well, that's your fault or your responsibility. DDSI, there's no blame. And we all share our share of the responsibility, like butter on bread. And so we spread that around. And those are the things that, yeah, people know they have a responsibility to come in and be the best version of who they are.

That doesn't mean you leave everything at the door or the things that I was trained with years and years ago. We want to know people's stories. We want to know when they're struggling. there's so many things, Lori, that come up that I'm, like I mentioned, Jennifer, I'm so fortunate to be able to work with Jen.

I always tell Jen, it's like us working together is like plugging an acoustic guitar into an amplifier. Like either one of us could have been successful without the other one, but wow, is it different because we get to work together? And so as we think about that, like she does 90 meetings with me a year where I meet with all of our employees every year in groups of 10 or less. And I don't let them talk about work.

And so when they come on, you're saying, how are you doing is the first question. And we want to leave space for that stuff that's feeling heavy or hard right now. And if you're feeling joyful, we want to hear from you too. But I do want us to look forward to one thing. You I want us to be able to over the next year, look forward to it. So they'll tell stories about grandparents or grandparents that are healthier, grandkids, people and cruises that they're going on. And Jennifer is there, not in the background, but right on screen taking all these notes.

And so then she puts them into my calendar so that I can follow up with people. And so every day I'm reaching out to people saying, hey, how was your trip to Ocean City, today? And then I get an email back. So it allows me to stay connected in a human way with 856 people and celebrate all those things that are great in their life, but then they're inclined to reach out when things aren't so great in their life. They're reaching out to me with problems about their career, problems in their life. I mean, we just had two representatives in Missouri lose their homes, you know, to the tornadoes. So you're definitely interacting with people differently because at least as a CEO or a chief servant leader, as I like to say.

You're intentionally saying, this is the connection that I want to have with you. I want to know what's going on outside of work. I want you to bring that into work. I think it obviously makes people feel like if nothing else, they're like, they're not a number or something silly like that, right? They're a person that we recognize, that we see, we identify as a unique, special individual with special skills and talents. And they're here for a larger purpose. And we love that.

Lori: I have to commend you because with 856 people, that's a lot of people to be personally in touch with. You know, a lot of the companies that I work with in creating internal podcasts, have, once they get past like 100 or certainly 200 people, it's hard to stay in touch with everybody on that personal level. corporate culture starts getting a little fuzzy because when you have a smaller company, everybody knows everybody and everybody knows what's going on. And then as you're growing, it's harder to do that.

Kevin: Yeah, well it was very frustrating for me, Lori. I mean, remember when I joined my dad there were like eight people and a couple of them were related to me and so at that point it was easy.

As it grew, people would say at some point, they'd almost like pat me on the head and say, well, that's great. But at some point that model won't scale or it'll break or whatever. And so it probably 250 representatives, 300. I started to say to Jen, I'm just frustrated. I don't know the people like I want to because this is what I have to bring, right? It's the culture and the people and the connection. That's my ability to help as a leader. And if I can't do that, I'm not going to sit in meetings and go through spreadsheets. And so, you know, she and I came up with the idea.

How could we make it more generative and even cooler? And so as we've done that, we do half of them in the spring and half of them in the fall. And there's about 45 meetings, a half hour long. And we just figured out how could we do this at scale. Now I'd love to tell you I have this special ability to remember the stories from 900 people almost over 10 years. Because we've been doing this for a long time. I don't. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, we have, but we do have a baseball card.

And so I asked Jennifer to help me create baseball cards where there are pictures on the front and all their stories are on the back. And so if I go visit an office, I will review all of their stories and get up to speed on their lives, right? So you can connect in that way. I wish I could remember all of the stories and we're very upfront about all this stuff too. And in their baseball cards, if I have a one-to-one like I do tomorrow, I'll open up the baseball card, Jen will send it to me electronically and look at all the stories and then you know who you're talking to again. And some people obviously I've worked with for 30 years, but other people, you gotta bone up on it before you go to the office and make sure you know all their stories.

Lori: Gosh, I love the the baseball card idea. And that makes perfect sense coming from you with the background in sports. So yeah, absolutely. Are there any other skills that you've been working on improving?

Kevin: You know how much I talk, Lori. You've had to put up with it here for a few minutes already. I've tried to be a better listener. That is a learned skill for me. It's so funny, Stacey DeSantis that works in the office here with me. She's been here about seven years, so she's a newbie by EDSI standards, but she's extraordinary. 10 out of 10, she's really, really talented. And I went up to her the other day and I was watching one of our other leaders and they were talking a lot in a meeting.

And he's extraordinary too, but I just noticed that he was doing a lot of talking. And I said, when I'm in a meeting with you, do I do that? Like what percentage of time do you think I'm talking? And she said, is it a professional meeting or are we just having a conversation? And she said, I go, a professional meeting. And she goes, you're fantastic. Like you talk maybe 10, 20 % of time at most. Like you ask great questions and you listen.

And I said, what if we're just talking like we are now? And she goes, no, you talk a lot more. So I know that it was, I love her, frankness. Thank you for calling bull crap on the boss and telling me. I also love that it's like, I've done it, right? I've done better. I'm growing, I'm learning. I see really gifted people like Arlene, our chief talent officer, Colleen, one of our leaders, my wife, Wendy is an extraordinary listener, my mother, right? These are people that are naturally gifted. I had the natural gift of gab and had to learn to be a listener. So that's the biggest one. How can I get to an even better question?

How can I make sure that it's one I absolutely don't know the answer to? Like when I coach two people full time since I got a coaching certificate about 10 years ago, pro bono that just comes into my life. And in that way, Lori, I'm always trying to ask great questions, right? And you're staying in question mode as you would. And in that way, it's like, it's harder to coach a CEO than it is to coach someone that I, lawyer or something that I'm less familiar with because you are generatively asking really ignorant questions that you don't know the answer to if you don't know the industry.

Whereas you have to calm this voice if you're a CEO to say, gosh, I know the answer to this. I've been doing this for 30 years. So I love coming into it with a sense of wonder and a sense of curiosity. I think that's the second thing that I always tell people makes a great leader. You have to be clear and you have to be curious. Those are two of the big three things that if I've learned anything in leadership, those are two of the three for sure.

Lori: You said two of the three, what's the third one?

Kevin: Yeah, the last one is consistency. Just be consistent, right? Know who you are and just give that to the world. Don't try to be all things to all people and don't get out of your lane. I only have so much to give. I've got limited talents. And so the ones I have, I want to really make sure that I'm honed in on and being consistent. And if I came into the office and started screaming about quarterly outcomes, they'd be concerned.

So be clear, be curious and be consistent. And those are, for me, the ones that I've anchored in for sure.

Lori: Cool, I'm gonna ask you about your hype song, but I have to go back to something I heard you say earlier, and I took a note of it, and I was like, wait, wait, wait. So you said you don't have a desk, you only have a locker. What?

Kevin: Yeah? Yeah. Well, we were very early pioneers. It started with my dad, actually, and he and I were very different leaders. He was the best leader I've ever worked with, Lori. But we had different styles. He actually said to me before he passed away, he said, I think I would have liked to have led like you did.

I just wasn't trained like that, which is ridiculous because I have my mother's personality. So I know why we and I work together so well because they adore each other. So, yeah, he went we went to meet with Father Cunningham, who ran an organization called Focus Hope in Detroit that was very famous internationally. And when we went to meet with him together, we said, we're here to see Father Cunningham. They said, all right, go back. He's at the little steel desk in the corner. And my dad and I were so struck by this international figure who had been on Oprah.

All this other stuff that with the humility that he led his life with, that he said, you know what, next time we move the office, we're going to knock down all the walls. We're just going to knock down all these walls. And this is long before anybody had open office concepts.

So as we did that, he and I mistakenly had the biggest desk. So we had like these mega desks in the corner, even though we had no office, we weren't there yet. And so then I thought, you know what, if I have a chance to build out the office again, having learned what I've learned, I just, won't have a desk. We have like a hotel and concept on the first floor. And then for people that want the upstairs, they have their own desk.

I just like to move around and have a lot of hyperactivity and so that part of it is fun but I just go where I'm needed and I keep my stuff in the locker and it's served us really well down here.

Lori: That's such an interesting concept. I gotta say, you're the first leader I've talked to who does not have a desk. That's cool. So it's an interesting concept.

Kevin: No, why would you need one, right? mean, yeah, it's really fun. We have to clean up every night. You can't leave anything out. And we do bedazzle our lockers. So there's a lot of pictures, magnets of the girls and stuff and my wife. And then we have our personality indexes on there, our AccuMax profiles for how we like to be treated at work. So those sit on everyone's desk. And for us, they just magnet to the locker. So we've kind of figured a lot of stuff out, but we're learning a lot more than we're figuring out too. So it's been great.

Lori: What a great balance. All right, so clearly after this conversation, I know that you already have a lot of energy. So I can only imagine what happens when you need an extra boost of energy. But when you do, what is the song you listen to?

Kevin: Yeah, so the latest one is Be Who You Are by Michael Franti. And if you don't know Michael Franti, not you, Lori, but anyone listening to this, please go check out Michael Franti. You know, he's a guy, Lori, real quickly, if I can. not, I'm a lot of things. I'm not succinct, as you've learned, but I took, had tickets that I bought for my buddy and he was playing locally and Michael was in town and my buddy already had tickets because he was such a big fan. But I said, Oh, I'll just take our 13 year old at the time, Lauren, who's now 19.

Kevin: And she's like, dad, I want to go. I don't even know who this guy is. And I said, well, just let's go halfway through Michael's concert. Our 13 year old is dancing in the aisles with random strangers. That's how positive and impactful Michael is for other human beings. So I adore the guy. I've had a chance to meet him a couple of times now. His music is incredibly positive. It's incredibly uplifting. Just such a special human being during the pandemic. I scheduled a surprise video call with him through Cameo.

And it was supposed to be 15 minutes, maybe 10, like a real brief call. And I surprised Lauren, our oldest daughter. I told her we had a meeting with our pastor at church and she shows up, you know, just getting out of the shower. And here's Michael, you know, this video call. Do you know that he stayed on for an hour and 25 minutes?

Lori: What?

Kevin: He played a song that had never been released. And I'm like, Michael, we only paid you for 10 minutes for this call or whatever. He's like, I'm not doing anything. What, let's just, yeah, this has been a great conversation. Just incredibly generous in spirit. And so yeah, I love anything that Michael does. And his latest song, Be Who You Are, speaks to a lot of the stuff that I love too, and is just so heartfelt.

Lori: I will put a link to that in the show notes so people can listen. And I also just want to point out that his generosity to you is a reflection of your generosity to others.

Kevin: Really kind, Lori. Yeah, thanks for saying that. Yeah, really kind.

Lori: If someone wants to continue a conversation with you, Kevin, where's the best place for them to reach you?

Kevin: Yeah, they can email me just check out edsi.com anywhere in the world. You can just go to Google and search EDSI or you can email me at kevin at edsi.com and certainly would be glad to hear from you and appreciate all the work you're doing Lori and the way that you're doing it. It's really important and I appreciate who you are.

Lori: Thank you so much for joining me. And I will put a link to your contact information in the show notes as well. And again, Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today on Fine Is a 4-Letter Word.