Hello and welcome to Something to Talk About.

For Stella Podcast.

I'm Sarah La marquand your host, and every week I sit down with some of the biggest names in the country because when Australia's celebrities are ready to talk, they come to Something to talk About.

It's been nearly fifteen years since a grass fire changed Terria Pitt's life forever.

Since that moment, she's become one of the most well known names in Australia, coaching over forty thousand people, competing in the Ia Man World Championships, walking the Kokoda Trail, and raising two boys with her partner Michael.

But despite those achievements, Teria reached a point where she felt like a fraud.

She was a beacon for overcoming adversity, yet in truth, she struggled to speak up for herself.

She wrote a book about happiness, yet she was privately struggling with a mental health crisis, and she kept saying yeah when what she really wanted to do was say no.

For her new book, Selfish, How to Unlearn the Rules that Are Breaking You, Teria embarked on a journey to reclaim one of the harshest words anyone but particularly a woman, could be labeled selfish and reclaim it as a manifesto for setting boundaries and embracing self work.

I have placed so much unnecessary pressure on myself.

I have made my life so much harder than it needed to be.

And I have expected myself to do all of these things, but without having the support system behind me or the systems in place to be able to do that.

And when I haven't been able to do all other things, I've been disappointed in myself.

This is Teria as you've never heard her before, unfiltered, vulnerable, and very funny.

From writing a breakup letter to alcohol, to confronting the invisible mental load of motherhood to finally giving herself permission to stop trying to do it all, Tera opens up about the pressure, the guilt, and the surprising freedom of being unapologetically selfish to reappear Welcome to the Stellar Podcast.

Thank you for having me on the Stellar Podcast.

I have to say your new book Selfish, How to Unlearn the Rules that are breaking you, I mean, gosh, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people, men and women, but certainly the women of Australia that that really speaks to me.

And tera I'd love to start by asking you about the word selfish, because it feels as though you are reclaiming this word, a word that is used against people, particularly for women.

God forbid any of us are selfish.

How intentional was that?

You know what?

When you go to a wedding and they do the vows, often the groom will say, I love her so much, she's so selfless.

And women really are valorized for being selfless, for being nurturing, for being caring, for thinking of others.

And so I just started to write it selfish because I'm a bit of a smart ass, and I was like, oh, fuck that, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna call it selfish.

It's going to be fun, it's going to be a bit cheeky.

So that's why I use that word.

And I also know that for myself, I need to overdo things.

Does that make sense?

I need to overdo things so that I can understand them and learn them.

But when I finished the book, I realized that nothing I wrote about was actually selfish at all, you know what I mean?

Because there's nothing selfish about wanting the distribution of labor at home to be more equal There's nothing selfish about wanting to go to the gym and exercise.

There's nothing selfish about wanting to sit down and eat your lunch without doing a million other things.

Nothing selfish about having bound in place.

So I think, yeah, I think that's why I called it that word.

Have there been times in your life where your own relationship with that word has changed when you become a parent, for instance, women particularly think being called selfish is literally the worst thing that could be said.

Sometimes when you're a teenager, people automatically assume, well, she's selfish.

They're selfish, their self centered.

And now as you're really helping reclaim and help people reevaluate that word, if I or someone else was to say to you, my gosh, you're so selfish, would that sting at all?

No, of course it would sting.

Of course it would sting because you can't undo all of that conditioning that we've had over our lifetime.

And you're so right.

When someone goes you're so selfish, I can't believe you did that.

It's probably one of the worst insults that you can hurl at a woman in particular, and as a mom, you never want to get called selfish.

Because you're constantly doing things for other people, and so I think we pride ourselves on being selfless and giving and being nurturing, and so I think, even though I've called it, you know how to be selfish, and in the book I detail how it can be more selfish.

If someone said to me, Terrea, you're being really selfish right now, that would hurt.

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest, that would hurt.

Well.

Hopefully, by the time people have read your book, they will feel, especially women, I think, a little less self conscious and a little less hard on themselves for tapping into being able to take care of themselves without thinking that it is the worst thing they could do.

Another really interesting aspect of the book Selfish, is your relationship with alcohol, and you actually write a breakup letter with alcohol or ALKI as you call it.

This is an issue close to mine my Heartterrea.

I actually this weekend has been five years since I inadvertently tripped into being sober curious for five years.

Obviously you discuss it in your book.

Can you talk a little bit about what brought you to that decision and what your relationship with alcohol is today.

Yeah, you know what the starting point for that is.

I picked up a new hobby called surf skating, and it's as ridiculous as it sounds.

You've got a skateboard type contraption, but you can do surfing maneuvers on it, so you can like bottom turn, you can cut back.

So I picked up that hobby of surf skating, and I had a really bad surf skate accident.

It wasn't didn't break Anyvince didn't need to go to hospital, but I was bruised.

I was graised.

I was despondent, and I was really down on myself as well, because I was at the early stages of writing this book, and so I thought, you know, how can I have more energy?

How can I be more present?

How can I make sure I'm showing up as the best mom and best leader and you know, the best mate.

And I realized that my relationship with alcohol was complicated.

And you know, growing up I lived in a small town, there was a culture of binge drinking.

That's what I did too.

Of course, when I went to UNI, I did wining engineering.

That was a lot of heavy drinking, which I took part in it.

I took a sense of pride in being able to keep up with the boys, even though I wasn't able to keep up with the boys, and even though I would black out, I would have horrible embarrassing moments that when people would recount them to me the next day, I would want to curl up into a ball out of shame and out of embarrassment.

And there was one particular moment, you know, on the way back from preschool with my kids, I stopped at the bottle shop.

I got the kids out of the car and we went in, and the boys like, why are we you know, why are we here, mummy?

And we went home.

They were playing and I cracked open a beer and I started swinging it, and those first couple of seeps of alcohol are actually so good.

I don't know if anyone can relate to this.

You feel this relaxation, You feel like, oh, you feel like the weight of the world is taken off your shoulders.

And I just.

Thought, maybe the fact that this feels so good, and then I want it so bad, and I'm writing this book about how to be selfish, and I want to have a better relationship with my body, like maybe I shouldn't.

Maybe it should be something that's part of my project, and so I tipped all the beers out.

So that was the starting point.

I wrote the breakup letter to alcohol, which was like a fun exercise, but I also did more such I suppose about how how harmful alcohol is, and I don't want to be you know, he you don't want to be the fun Police being like no, it's bad for you.

And I don't want to be like that because I can't speak for everyone, but I know for me, I couldn't.

I couldn't moderate it very easily.

And so yeah, I stopped.

I stopped drinking for about a year, but later on in the book, when I get depressed and found out I picked back up the habit of drinking.

I really relate to what you're saying about that fear that talking about it makes you feel like the fun Police, because say, it's so embedded in our culture.

I think whatever part of Australia you grow up in it yeah.

Yeah, associated with that relaxation.

Barbecue speach.

Absolutely, you know with mates, Oh, if you've got bad news, let's go, like, go to the bottleshop, Let's have some beers.

You've got good news, Hey, let's go to the bottle short shop.

Let's have some beers.

Like, it's so part of our Australian culture that I do feel I feel a little bit like I'm lecturing the person that's listening to this, saying like, don't drink alcohol.

But at the same time, I don't.

I don't really know what it adds.

Doesn't add anything to my life at all, I'm being honest.

Yeah, when you read the breakup letter too, ALKI in the book, it's the opposite of lecturing.

But there is that instinct that it almost feels I'm Australian or or however we describe it in disgataging terms these.

Yeah, I'm patriotic.

I'm patriotic, Like, how dare you?

Well?

Speaking of beverages, but of a different kind.

I wanted to talk about the first anecdote in Selfish, which, yes, these books starts with of all things, a man and some hot chocolate.

Now, if people don't want to read beyond that, I mean I can't help you, So over to you to about that the role the anecdote about hot chocolate plays in this Yeah.

So that was the origin story for this book.

So I've got a beautiful partner.

Everyone in Australia is in love with him right.

He's kind, he's handsome, he's humble.

He took care of me, he changed my bandages, he fed me soup, he drove me to appointments.

He's a lovely human being.

Where parents are two little boys.

We both worked all day.

Would come home.

You know, when you come home after work all day, the kids are hungry, You're already a bit frazzled and stressed.

And I started cooking dinner.

And along with cooking dinner, I was drinking wine.

That's how I was coping with the stress of that moment.

And I look over to my beautiful partner and he's sitting on the couch and I think, oh, that'd be nice just to kick back from work.

That'd be great to be able to do that.

But no, I'm cooking dinner.

And so I'm cooking dinner.

The kids are pulling at my legs, I'm trying to respond to emails on my phone.

All of this is stressing me out.

The oil from the meatballs that I'm cooking it's like searing my wrists.

So I'm just shitty, resentful stress, and I'm just I just keep drinking wine as well, just to manage that situation, and we sit down, we eat dinner.

I don't eat my dinner, shovel it in like a maniac.

Can.

I get up and I start cleaning things and clearing things, and my son Hakaba says, Oh, I want to hot chocolate onm So I go, yeah and no worries, and I bring out the packet and he doesn't like the brand.

He doesn't like the brand that I bought, and he says, you've bought the wrong one.

And I was feeling a bit snarky in that moment, so I said, well, ask your dad, ask your dad to buy you the brand that you like.

And he said, no, that's your job.

And I'm someone who I would consider myself to be a feminist.

I would consider Michael and I to have equal roles in our house ausehold.

But yet my son thought it was my job to remember the brand of hot chocolate that he likes, as well as all the other things that I did to keep our family on course.

So that was a catalyst.

That was the first chapter of this book, and that's what launched me into this project of being selfish.

It's such a powerful way of illustrating what is being replicated all around the country, because you also cite research in the book to read.

The Australian Institute of Family Studies, for instance, finds three quarters of mums carry the mental load, while only three percent of dads take the lead.

And as you have spoken about in your beautiful story there, it's not about demonizing men in any way.

It's just about having a genuine national conversation about how, even in the most modern and progressive and well intentioned of households, is this still happening?

Do you have any answers to that?

And obviously these are things you exploring the book.

How on earth do we solve this?

I really don't know at a policy level how we could solve it.

I suppose at an individual level, Michael and I played this.

There's like this system, it's called fair play, and you play these cards.

And what's good about it is it makes the invisible work, you know, the mental load visible, and you can kind of delegate to each other who's doing what, who's doing school lunches, who's cooking dinner, who's doing laundry.

So we did that.

I thought that was quite quite an insightful exercise for both of us.

But then I sent out a survey to my audience, and about a thousand people responded with how they felt how they approached the mental load in their household.

I suppose the responses I got were quite depressing, because women wrote in things like I've tried everything, nothing changes, I'm tired, I'm stressed, I'm resentful.

It just seems like one thing to do it.

It seems so unfair.

So I think when people say running a household's easy, having kids is easy, working is easy.

Sure, maybe each of those things individually is not that hard, but it's doing all of those things all at once, wanting to do them all very very well, not having much support because most days it's just you know, a nuclear family typically and they might not live close to extended family, so it's very very hard to get all the things done to a really high standard.

And then obviously at the moment a culture, there's a conversation around trad wife and younger women stay at home girlfriend.

And oh, that's such bull that's such bullshit.

I'm sorry, because the trad wife thing is like they're still working.

Like back in the day, people thought Instagram is just taking photos whatever.

But these days we all know, most of us know that creating content, editing that content, putting it online, like that's a that's a job, so that the trade wife is is working.

If some people want to stay at home and raise their kids, that's amazing.

I'm really happy if people get to get to do that.

The reality is, though, like most of us can't just survive on one wage.

With the cost of living, it's impossible for a one feeling which is survive on one wage.

So both both parents typically need to be working.

And so both parents are working, but typically there's only one parent who's managing the household and the kids.

So normally, and I don't want to you know, I don't want to add to any stereotypes, but normally is it is the mum who's doing those things.

It is definitely a stereotype for a And isn't it because statistically, as I say in the research that you cite in the book.

Yeah, that's what the research shows.

Yeah.

And I'm not saying that guys are assholes or that guys aren't great and that they don't have their own their own expectations placed on them.

Like I'm really worried about how I'm going to raise my boys to be kind and generous and loving.

But at the same time, I don't have an experience.

I don't have any experience of what it's like to be a man.

I'm a woman, and this book is just written from my experience.

It's also wanting to be a role model.

You've always had an extremely strong work ethic, and you seem to be somebody that throws yourself in two hundred percent of everything that you do.

It would be very hard for me to imagine a world where you were not contributing to the community and in all aspects of your life as a mother, as a partner, but also as public figure.

What role does that play in your decision making process?

To read being a mum of two boys and being conscious like me of raising good men and also men that take women seriously as not any caregivers and people that are apparently responsible for fetching the hot chocolate, but as highly respected and critical participants in our community.

Yeah, and you know what, it's really hard because if you want to be that highly respected thought leader who's contributing to society, but you also want to be a really good parent on the home front and make sure you raise your kids in a way that they'll be respectful and kind and have good boundaries and all of those things.

And then you want to have a great relationship with your you know, with your partner if you have one.

But then you also want to go to the gym to make sure that you're looking after your own well being, but then also don't look like shit, so you've got to put an effort there.

So there's all of these I suppose expectations that are that are put on us, or maybe that we put in ourselves, or maybe it's a bit of both.

And so what I'm trying to do now is honestly, do do less.

And I feel lucky that I can that I can do that right, that I can do less.

My husband is working way, I'm not working as hard this year as I did last year or the years before that.

But at the same time, I feel feel a bit disappointed because I'm not able to do all of these things I don't want to do.

So there's that there's a there's a bit of tension there as well, And maybe it's going to get easier as the boys get older, maybe maybe not, I don't know.

Coming up, how Trea really feels about being called a self help expert.

There's a lot of self reflection in Selfish, and there's a part where you talk about Daria, how for a long time your work ethic revolved around your mindset of quote I beat the fire, Yeah, and therefore nothing could stand in your way.

And I was thinking about that where you were just saying that you have slowed down a little bit.

Can I ask you just to expand a little bit on that.

Yeah?

That was not because you're right.

I've always prided myself with my work ethic.

I've always had this ability to work hard, keep going, pushed through, don't stop.

And then last year my husband started working away, the most senior person on my team left.

I had difficult relationships with some family members.

I felt and rather than stopping and thinking, hey, I'm going to need some help, I'm not going to be able to do all of these things that I committed to.

Instead I thought, no, suck it up, don't complain.

You wanted a business, you wanted kids, You've got both hyps of people.

Do this.

Stop bitching, stop complaining, get over yourself.

And obviously speaking to myself that way didn't make anything any easier, and it got to the stage where I started to feel like I was an inconvenience.

I felt like I was in the way, and even though a lot of friends and family offered me help, I said, we know Michael's working a way.

Let me know if you need anything, or do it when I cook dinner tonight.

I said no, I said, no, it's fine, because I was too too proud, wanted to portray this image of being able to do do everything and do everything well, I don't know, and so it eventually led me to being really depressed and needing professional help.

And what was it that brought you out of that?

Was that because you started to be a little kinder to yourself, to be a bit quote unquote selfish.

No, it was I think because I'd let it get so far that I started to feel like I was in inconvenience that people would be better off without me.

I think if I'd just tried to, you know, be kinder to myself, I'm not sure if it would have worked.

Because I was in I was in a state of crisis, and so I was quite fortunate.

I hadn't really close girlfriend who I called told her how I was feeling, and she said, yeah, I think you should go, you know, see GP get a mental health plan.

And when I went to the GP's office on her shelf, I could see my book Happy and other ridiculous Aspirations, and I felt like such a fraud because I wrote that book about happiness and now I'm here because I need help with my mental health.

That didn't Yeah, that didn't really feel very good.

And I didn't know at the time about the mental health crisis that we have in Australia.

You know, one in three people are going to have a mental health condition during their lifetime.

Average rating time for a psychologist is I think four to six week.

Out of pocket expenses have jumped up, so I was fortunate.

I had a supportive partner, I had the money to be able to pay for these appointments, I had resources at my disposal.

But it just suppose it angers me that we've built this system that makes us feel like if we can't cope, but it's somehow our fault, and that we can't get any help unless we pay for it as well.

That really angers me.

I think it is so powerful coming from you particularly, and I hope that this doesn't sound insincere, because it's the opposite of that when I use the word courage here, that your vulnerability and your honesty, because I imagine that moment that you're talking about, sitting in the doctor's office and seeing your book happy and thinking this is the definition of irony or the opposite is all of us.

Of course, how our external persona is no doubt different to how we're feeling insideer someone like you, Taria, who has been this hugely inspirational figure to so many Australians men and women.

You first became known to the country when you were recovering from those terrible burns when you were caught in a grass fire in twenty eleven, almost fifteen years ago.

Now and then you have you are very funny and candid and for people to hear that vulnerability, and then more than a decade after triumphing against impossible odds, you're then sitting in self doubt and serious depression.

I really do just want to say really respect and applaud that bravery because I think coming from you, that's going to surprise people in the best possible way, because people might think, well, I'm not strong, I can't be invincible in the way someone liked to rear is.

But what you're saying is no, no, I'm right there with you, and there is no happily ever after here.

And you can have a book called happy on the bookshelf and have meant every single word in that book, and then a couple of years later find yourself in a whole other excuse the pun, chapter of life.

Yeah, it's extremely ironic, now that you've said it, now that you've now that you've said it like that, And I suppose that's why you know.

Number one, I'm grateful for this book because I wouldn't have I wouldn't have done the self reflection to realize that I needed help as early as what I did if I wasn't writing the book.

So I'm grateful for that.

But also I think I had those expectations of myself because I had beat the fire, which was a catastrophe, So like, come at me, life, what else do you want to throw at me?

And so for me, things like my partner working away, solo, parenting, running a business, they don't really seem that hard, and so there was a lot of self flagellation of me criticizing myself that it shouldn't be hard, that you shouldn't complain that you should tough enough that you should just be able to cope with all of this.

And I think that's part of the reason why I put it in the book, because I think that it is something we can relate to.

One in three hours, is are going to go through some kind of mental health crisis or issue in our lifetime, and it can happen can happen to any of us.

Absolutely, and the average life.

I mean, obviously you and I both know there's no such thing as average life, so quotation marks around that.

But there's for some people moments of profound trauma and unimaginable catastrophes, and then there's little things that can also derail us.

And I think this is also an interesting component to what you're talking about here and in the book, Toreer, is that a life can have both of those, and sometimes it might be the smaller things that absolutely derail you.

It can be something that seems quite innocuous that just has you thinking, oh my gosh, even though you have shown superhuman strength through other more overtly challenging eperiods of a life.

Yeah, like, this was the hardest book I've ever written, which is so strange because there is no grass fire to chat about.

There is no grueling operations or years in hospital.

There is I didn't lose anyone that I loved, there was no life altering diagnosis.

But it was still the hardest book I've ever written.

And I think part of the reason it was so hard was because we're told constantly that our stories don't matter, you know, that we shouldn't complain, that we should be grateful that no one's going to care anyway, even if we do tell our story.

And I think that's part of the reason why I wrote the book, and I hope it really No.

I'm glad you said it was relatable, but I hope people find it relatable as well.

It's hugely relatable, and I think especially coming from you, where people would say, well, I know I'm going to read or listen to Terrea's work and find it inspirational, but to find it relatable is not necessarily something that people would have ten years.

Yeah, my experience is very different.

But I do think there's something really beautiful, and I think like moments like that hot chocolate anecdote.

I mean, I definitely hear that, and I'm sure that a lot of other Australian women will too.

I guess a little bit on that aspect of the disconnect between what a public persona is as opposed to your actual real day to day experience.

Wanted to ask you about the idea of being a self help guru.

You have spoken to more than forty thousand people on stage.

I mean, could be more than that, but it's definitely that you know, you've been alongside people like Tony Robbins seen as one of as I say, using the word again, but there just really is sometimes no other word, a hugely inspirational public speaker and public figure.

How does that title sit with you?

Glenn and Doyle was on the Stellar podcast a few months ago and she really she struggles a bit with the idea of being described as someone that works in the self help space.

What about you?

Yeah, I struggle with it too.

I think maybe because it seems quite seems quite masculine, you know, like it's like being masculine and then you're like, I'm going to help you, you know, I'm going to change your life kind of lives.

So I don't like, Yeah, I don't really like being described as a self help guru.

And I think that might be because of again, how I've been raised.

It feels like I'm big noting myself to say, yeah, I'm a self help I'm a self help guru.

That feels a bit a bit ankorish to be honest.

Yeah, So I don't.

I don't.

I don't love it and I don't really identify with it because all of the stuff that I've I've made, my programs and courses and books, I've made it because it was something that I just needed at the time.

And this this book, Selfish, is no different.

And the one thing I learned throughout the book is that I have placed so much unnecessary pressure on myself.

I have made my life so much harder than it needed to be, and I have expected myself to do all of these things, but without having, you know, the support system behind me or the systems in place to be able to do that.

And when I haven't been able to do all of the things, I've been disappointed in myself.

And so I've always had so much guilt, particularly when it came to parenting, that I wasn't being good enough mother, or I wasn't doing this, or I wasn't doing that.

And through writing this book, I realized that those expectations I had of myself were so completely unrealistic that no one is able to do all of those things.

Maybe there are some people out there who he'll be able to do all of those things, and power to them, but I couldn't do all of them.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about your partner, Michael, who, as he said, everybody fell in love with him when they fell He's adorable.

Yeah, he's adorable, He's lovely.

How does he feel reading the book?

I imagine when you sat down to write the anecdote about hot chocolate, you either talk to him or he's presumably read it.

How does he respond to that in terms of thinking about it at seeing things through a new lens, whether it's changed any behavior or had him thinking about things differently, whether there was a conversation between you, And also, how does he feel about these stories being shared with with your readership in a national.

Yeah, yeah, and that's and that's that's a fine line to balance because Michael's intensely privates a He's a very private man, and you won't really ever see him on podcasts or or doing interviews or things like that.

But he also understands that I like to think about things, I like to write about things, and I like to share things as well.

So I shared the manuscript with Michael, and you know, he gave me some feedback and I made some changes, and I think ultimately I was happy with his feedback as well.

Because I wanted it to be I didn't want it to be like a man bashing book.

I've got three brothers, I was raised by dad, I've got two little boys.

I didn't want it to be that at all.

The two of you have been obviously through so much together.

And I mentioned earlier the grass fire and that coming up to fifteen years career, and of course since then you've raised or given birth to two children who the two of you are now raising.

How will you talk to them about that chapter of your life.

Is it something that they're asking about more as they get older, and also how that played out publicly.

No, they haven't asked about it more.

I think because they've always known.

Does that make sense?

So when they were younger and they said all wiser hand different, I would say, well, I got burnt during a grass fire.

So because it's always been their reality, I've never sat them down and been like, Okay, kids, I'm going to tell you the truth about that that day, because I've always told them the truth ever since they were old enough to ask about it.

I think in the chapter about boundaries, part of the reason why I wanted to get better at them is that I noticed it was affecting how I parented because someone might come up, they could say something in insensitive to me, and my kids would be there, and rather than shutting the stranger down or closing them off, I would placate them and I would say, you know, for example, if someone said, oh, what happened to you, I'd say, oh, I got burned.

It was a really long time ago.

Well, good night, Good now how did you get burned?

Oh?

Well it was during an ultra marathon, you know, grass flights ages ago.

Oh what happened?

And so this interaction would just extend, extend and extend, and my boys would often be near me, and so I had to think about I suppose the example I was setting them.

I was demonstrating that if somebody comes up and asks you a question, doesn't matter what the question is you've got to answer.

It doesn't matter if you find the question uncomfortable.

You've got to answer it, and you've got to be polite.

And so.

Even if I was holding my kid's hands, I could feel them squeezing my hand as if to say, well, can we go, and I would still be there having this conversation with this stranger who asked an intrusive question.

So that was part of the reason why I explored boundaries and really wanted to have better boundaries around myself.

You seem to have been successful with that, and I am glad to hear if that is the case, because this is certainly something of course people in the media I think we rightfully grapple with.

This is inviting people or expecting them to relive certain chapters of their life.

You have obviously been very very effective and very generous at sharing parts of your story with people, knowing that it resonates.

But that is very different to people thinking, and I include journalists in this, that they can demand you to tell that story at any time that we happen to either in a forum like this or it is somebody running into you on the street while you're bringing your boys home from school.

Yeah, and I think it depends about the context.

Right, So on a podcast.

When I'm speaking about my new book, I would expect some questions about the Ultra Marathon, and I'd be okay with that because I would think it's you're promoting a new book, and the journalists might ask those lots of questions, and that's going to be fine.

But I think in the situation of I'm at the shops grabbing some food for dinner that night, my kids are with me, I'm kind of a bit I'm a little bit harried already, and then if someone says, hey, what happened to you, it kind of pulls me out of what I'm doing.

So, Yeah, and I've gotten so much better at shutting down those s lot of questions.

So when I say I don't want to talk about it, and then it's just all of that time I would spend with that person, I don't need to anymore.

I can just carry on with my day.

And it's bizarre that I never realized I could do that before.

And I mean, it's so appropriate with everything that we're talking about today with Selfish, because it really is about boundaries, isn't it?

So much of it?

Yeah, just and so I'm trying to get I'm not perfect at it.

But I'm trying to have better boundaries.

And you know what is really interesting, even if I've said yes to things now sometimes I'll cancel them even after I've said yes to them, which old me would never have done.

I would have been like, you've said yes, you've got to stick to it, you have to follow through, Whereas now I'm like, well, if you cancel, what's going to happen?

They're going to be pissed off?

Is that the end of the world.

It's not.

Really is it going to be better for your wellbeing not to do the thing?

It is?

Well, o case, like cancel, Let's say no.

And that's been a really good lesson for me too.

But also interestingly, sometimes if I cancel things, the person comes back no dramas totally understand and they really understand it too.

So that's been really a really great thing for me to realize.

A lot of the time the person on the other end of that message or they.

Don't they don't want to do it either they don't want to do it either or.

No I exactly.

That's my favorite kind of message in the world, to be honest.

Oh yeah, I got to cancel this might Oh thank fuck yeah.

I didn't want to go either.

What about when you get the message and you think, yay, they're going to cancel, and then they go all still good for seven o'clock.

You're like, damn, yeah, they're like looking forward, looking forward to seeing you.

Could we finish up then with a little bit of a I was going to say game that sounds a bit scary, game meets please.

I just thought, in the spirit of selfish, we could maybe have a bit of a game around what would Terrea pit do.

There's a great anecdote again in the book, we just talk about that mental load, especially for women.

But we're coming up to Christmas, so we'd think all of it, the shopping and the Santa and the parties and the invites and the school parties and plays and things.

So could we start with that.

Say child comes home and says, Mum, there's a parade tomorrow.

Got to have a costume.

It's four thirty in the afternoon, a few things to go that afternoon.

I'm already stressed just thinking about it.

What would Terrea do?

Because Michael and I have done the fair play cards, he's actually in charge of festival type things.

So I would say go tell you dad to start with, but sometimes sometimes he's Dad's not going to be there because he works away.

So then if I didn't have anything on that AVO, I might be able to make it happen.

But if I did have stuff on that AVO, if I was doing a master class that night or whatever it was, I'd just say, sorry, a man, I can't, I can't go to the shop.

You haven't given me very much notice.

And he would be disappointed, and would I would be disappointed that I couldn't make it happen for him, But you know what, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

And I have done that a couple of times, and my kids have actually learned to tell me things a little bit earlier so that that doesn't happen.

Yeah, well that's right, because if you do sometimes have those boundaries in place, it can be an exercise.

Yeah, it can really be.

It can really be a learning exercise.

And not that I ever do that to my kids, like to be like they've got to learn a lesson.

I don't do that at all.

But I'm not a magician, you know, I can't just magic things up.

I go to work.

I've got to cook dinner.

I've got things I have to do that are on wie agenda for that night, and I don't always have time to go to the shops to get this thing for this concept that I've only just found out about.

Another scenario for you, you happen to have a free afternoon on your own, get a couple of hours.

There's a lot to do, kitchen needs cleaning up, could start dinner prep.

There's a bit of a work project on the horizon, not due tomorrow but in a few days.

But also you would just love to sit down and finish that book you've been trying to read for a couple of weeks.

Do you take a couple of hours to yourself or do you like getting there?

I think, I think.

I think it depends how I'm feeling.

Like if I feel tired and overwhelmed, I would I would sit down with the book.

But if I felt like a little bit energized and a little bit like I got a couple of hours, I can cook down and start the work project.

Do this?

Do that?

I might also do that too, And I also have been guilty of a right well, I should do the work, trying to do the work, not really being successful.

I should cook dinner, not really having much energy for anything, and they were just flaughing about a lot.

That time probably would have been spent better reading the book, but probably at that time I felt guilty and I wasn't doing enough.

I'm loving these answers, so I hope you don't mind, and might just put one more scenario then to and say the friendship circle.

Yeah, I feel like I'm failing though.

I feel like well, I mean, I feel like I failed the game.

Well, first of all, it's not a yes or no.

I want to win.

I want to win.

Then we will do a score at the end and we'll see how you go.

But if the measurement of this is me finding it really helpful, well then tick tick you've won.

So final scenario again, really busy week, got a lot on, not much regal room between family and work.

And then some a friend messages you and says, would you have time for a coffee?

It's just something that I want to talk to you about.

You really don't have time?

What would you do?

Sorry?

Are they a good friend or or a tire kicker?

Like there is a that's a great question.

I was thinking somewhere in the middle, so not like you know, write or die best friend, but not just sort of you know, someone that's a little bit of a yeah tire kicker or yeah no friend in that yeah, sort of a middle one.

Yeah, I would say, yeah, I can read you for a coffee, but not until next week.

Yeah yeah, And that might that might be a bit harsh of me, because maybe they're struggling with their mental health and maybe that they need some help, maybe they need some support.

But I've fallen into the habit of of helping other people before I've given my self any attention and giving to other people before I think about what I need and what whine needs are, you know, resting, sleeping, spending time with my family.

And what happens is what happened last year is when I become burnt out and depressed, and that wasn't fun for me, and I really don't want that to happen again.

So I would tell that friend, yet, I can meet you for a coffee, but not until next week.

I love it.

Well, well win you want.

You won the game?

Okay, the rules and you won the game.

I genuinely found them all like really helpful answers, and I think if people didn't need to hear that, well, then lucky then they've one too.

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

It's been Yeah, it's been a joy to speak with you, and thanks for being so Thanks for understanding the book as well.

I've been so worried that about putting it into the world and how people will react to it, or if people will think I'm just winging a lot.

So that's really great that you've gotten some stuff out of it.

Thank you.

No, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that.

You know it has been a difficult time for you, but I think that you have done the best thing possible that any of us can hope with the chapter like that, you have funneled it into something really helpful and relevant and impactful.

And I really enjoyed the book.

And TIA's new book, Selfish, How to Unlearn the Rules that are Breaking You, is out this week on October seven.

Thank you for joining us today.

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