[SPEAKER_02]: My sister sent me a photo of like Selena Gomez in the bathroom of her wedding with Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus and Ariana Grande, and I did ask was like, that day I like I just didn't even listen.

[SPEAKER_02]: So no, like I think it was real.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've not seen it like I haven't even really realized she got married until I went to a pub quiz and that was one of the questions Well, let me send you the photo So you can see because that does sound like an AI committee like I can't imagine it Bullying like AI so my sister sends that she goes teen girl squad my mom goes nice to see they're still a squad heart They don't hang like they used to that.

[SPEAKER_02]: What are you talking?

[SPEAKER_02]: Funny yeah, I mean my parents are like way more tapped in on celebrity culture than I am Wait, but I also like love your mom's investment in this like non-existent friend She's not I was like you're capping she doesn't care about this at all.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was like what are you talking about?

[SPEAKER_02]: You're capping this is like not a group of people who historically have like been known to hang out with each other Also, which is really funny [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't it look AI?

[SPEAKER_02]: That's fake.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's definitely fake because Ariana Grande is like half the height of these women.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like, myelys ours is taller than I'm pretty sure she's in like Taylor's should be towering over them.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's also Ariana Grande's hair from like 2017.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think this is A- That's not my least iris as face, like that looks so weird.

[SPEAKER_01]: They wouldn't all be bridesmaids.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're the only same color.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, it's from Facebook and everything on Facebook is A-I these days.

[SPEAKER_01]: Literally, Facebook doesn't let you scroll down very far anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: It'll just be like, okay, that's enough for today.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so you're scrolling on Facebook.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because I was using Facebook Marketplace and then, you know, you'll open up Facebook and then you're like, oh, this abandoned person is buried.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's crazy.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm like, I wonder who else is randomly married that like, I don't have on Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: So you'll scroll down your feed.

[SPEAKER_01]: Half of it is like stuff like this.

[SPEAKER_01]: This A.I.A.S.

[SPEAKER_00]: photo of Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's Selena Gomez's wedding.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to watch your parents get go by A.I.

[SPEAKER_02]: or like, damn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Squad goals alert.

[SPEAKER_01]: Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande and Miley Cyrus, showing their love and support for our girl Selena Gomez on her special day.

[SPEAKER_01]: These queens are not only attending the wedding, but also standing by Selena's side as her bride's maids.

[SPEAKER_01]: Women supporting women is ultimate goal.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they definitely aren't all her rides me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like Ariana Grande was never a part of this click.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think my only Cyrus and Cindy Gomez were like friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love that I'm like fact checking.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I remember that.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is just also a photo of Ariana Grande from 2010 years ago.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, she don't look like that anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like she's a different human being now.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's not what she looks like.

[SPEAKER_01]: AI is so frightening.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so weird, but also speaking of vintage Ariana Grande, I have a story to tell you.

[SPEAKER_02]: And we go out to spill.

[SPEAKER_01]: So in July 2015, a 22-year-old Ariana Grande walked into a loss-angeless donut shop with a group of friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: While the shop employee was out of view, Ariana and one of her friends approached an unattended tray of powder donuts and began [SPEAKER_01]: Ariana then goes on to say, I hate Americans, I hate America.

[SPEAKER_01]: This incident was captured on the shop security cameras and leaked to TMZ who posted the video online.

[SPEAKER_01]: The backlash was immediate, not only was Ariana being openly unpatriotic, but the donuts she victimized that day were sold to unsuspecting customers and the donut shop in question was subjected to a reevaluation by the health department who'd downgraded them from an A to a B.

[SPEAKER_02]: This was pre-Beldyl fiend selling her bath water, like Ariana Grande licking the donut.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like that could have been sold all over the web.

[SPEAKER_01]: Thousand percent, unfortunately they also didn't realize she had licked the donuts until after they'd sold them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.

[SPEAKER_01]: So they couldn't even monetize on it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, how can they monetize that?

[SPEAKER_01]: She's a hustler.

[SPEAKER_01]: You got Chris Jenner brain.

[SPEAKER_01]: Don't me a Dermaplayn facelifts while you're at it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I found wrinkles yesterday.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ariana addressed the public outrage directly by tweeting, quote, need to clean up this mouth of mine and set a better example for my babes.

[SPEAKER_01]: I apologize and I love you.

[SPEAKER_01]: Always learning.

[SPEAKER_01]: Attached to the tweet was a screenshot of her iPhone notes app which contained the following statement.

[SPEAKER_01]: I am all caps extremely proud to be an American and I've always made it clear that I love my country.

[SPEAKER_01]: What I said in a private moment with my friend Ryan, with two ends at the end, who was buying the donuts, was taken out of context and I am sorry for not using more discretion with my choice of words.

[SPEAKER_01]: as an advocate for healthy eating.

[SPEAKER_01]: Food is very important to me and I sometimes get upset by how freely we as Americans eat and consume things without giving any thought to the consequences that it has on our health and society as a whole.

[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that the United States is one of the highest child obesity rates just right in the world frustrates me.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need to do more to educate ourselves and our children about the dangers of overeating and the poison that we put into our bodies.

[SPEAKER_01]: We need to demand more from our food industry.

[SPEAKER_01]: However, I should have known better in how I expressed myself, and with my new responsibility to others as a public figure, I will strive to be better.

[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.

[SPEAKER_02]: She wrapped it all into one.

[SPEAKER_02]: She really did.

[SPEAKER_02]: She really did.

[SPEAKER_02]: She did PSA.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's doing some Jamie all over.

[SPEAKER_02]: She, it's like the Dixie chicks got, you know, persecuted for being unpatriotic, but we never talk about Ariana.

[SPEAKER_00]: We never talk about Ariana.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's she, I guess she's like stole enough in people's boyfriends to kind of Trump her her tie rates against America and their food industry.

[SPEAKER_01]: So, this to me is a beautiful artifact of internet history because one, it's sort of deliciously ridiculous in a 30-rock, like Jenna Baroni from 30-rock kind of way, that I don't think celebrities do enough anymore.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's so out of touch, it's kind of beautiful.

[SPEAKER_01]: But also the apology itself contains multiple grammatical errors as well as the sentence as an advocate for healthy eating.

[SPEAKER_01]: So though Ariana appears to have deleted this statement from her social media and I think she did so pretty quickly, she made history that day.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because this is the first notable celebrity notes app apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: In this week's episode, we're going to dive deeper into the notes app statement.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's used as a PR tactic and our skepticism towards the public apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Hannah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this is rehash, a podcast about the internet phenomena that strike a nerve in our culture only to be quickly forgotten, but we think are due for a revisiting.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you're like our show and you'd like to hear more from us, you can join our Patreon at patreon.com slash rehash podcasts.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't want to join the Patreon, you can like and review us on Spotify and Apple podcasts because that helps us out a lot.

[SPEAKER_01]: In the years to follow Ariana's anti-donate manifesto, the notes app will come to replace the daytime talk show as the favorite format for celebrities to directly address the public.

[SPEAKER_01]: By the next year, in 2016, New York Magazine was already calling them quote ubiquitous on celebrity social media, and some notable [SPEAKER_01]: pun intended.

[SPEAKER_01]: Apologies from this time include when James Tarles apologize for being ignorant about the country of Africa after tweeting about not wanting to get Ebola on a school trip.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's crazy that he got cancelled kind of the exact same way that Justin's to echo about cancelled where they both tweeted something kind of like offensive about diseases that are prevalent in Africa.

[SPEAKER_02]: Got on a flight, got off the flight and they were full blown cancelled.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's like if I had a nickel for every time.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then, James Charles's apology is pretty beautiful because he starts it off basically being like, all these people were trying to construct like a PR statement, but I'm just going to apologize from the heart because I don't think that's like how you're supposed to do an apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then he went on to call Africa country twice.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, bless him.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's an American education system.

[SPEAKER_01]: Come on.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what he should have done.

[SPEAKER_01]: He should have gone on a tie rate against the American education system, Alla Ariana Grande.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: As an advocate for healthy learning.

[SPEAKER_01]: So other instances of notes up apologies from those years, it was Kendall Jenner apologizing on behalf of her and Kylie's clothing brand for trying to sell shirts that superimposed photos of them over photos of Tupac and Biggie.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's really funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: YouTuber Logan Paul famously posted a notes-up apology after he filmed his suicide forest video in Japan.

[SPEAKER_01]: That one was not funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then more recently Justin Timberlake posted a notes-up apology after he was caught holding hands with his co-star from like a movie, even though he's like very publicly buried to Jessica Biel.

[SPEAKER_01]: He also then posted another series of notes-up apologies [SPEAKER_01]: apologizing to Britney Spears and Janet Jackson, like 20 years late.

[SPEAKER_01]: Justin Bieber also kind of posted a crazy note-up apology from around this time where he basically meditates on like his experience growing up in the limelight and like his experience as a child star, but then goes on to like vaguely apologize for just like random behavior of his and like [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, there was something almost like philosophical about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: That boy, I think tends to really like big Instagram statements.

[SPEAKER_02]: And over that time that he comments it on Hailey Bieber's photo, where he said, Bays Boobs, and that he did, like, two eye emojis.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I clogged that and I said, that's so fucking funny.

[SPEAKER_01]: He's a wordsmith.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always struck when it's very clear that a celebrity runs their own Instagram.

[SPEAKER_01]: Facebook, you know, they say step aside to Pog, let Justin be like those.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Kendall Jenner, why don't you super impose a photo of Justin Bieber over your face?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: So before we talk more about the notes app apology, I want to talk more about the notes app itself.

[SPEAKER_01]: What are your notes app habits?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like what do you use it for, typically?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, so funny you should ask.

[SPEAKER_02]: All right, so let's go through it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of every single person I've ever slept with.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of my friends in New York because I kind of forget who I know here.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're kind of disparate, they're disparate.

[SPEAKER_00]: That's so funny and also like so devastating that gets leaked and then so...

[SPEAKER_00]: It's in all of there.

[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it's all brand new.

[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like spread a part of the other range.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm kidding.

[SPEAKER_02]: But they're like kind of spread it like in my friends.

[SPEAKER_02]: They're all spread a part in there.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like a cohesive friend group.

[SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes I'm like, I leave someone out of something or if I forget like, oh, I should hit this person up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, you're such a Virgo with the fuck.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of work stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: Random notes here and there, like left over stuff from different projects.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have like a nutritional advice.

[SPEAKER_02]: on here.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of baby names.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of like takes in case anyone would ask me might take about something.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have one.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's like the most mightier thing ever.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just have to like interject.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm also.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of celebrity crushes.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we got skied all rich.

[SPEAKER_02]: We have like, uh...

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of words you like.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of strip songs, good songs to strip too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have a list of songs to do karaoke too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have obviously like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Left over like wall of text messages to various exes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have essay ideas.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have...

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's kind of yeah, that's like most most of what I've got.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a lot on there, but I use it for everything.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll do like a daily list if I have something to do in the afternoon today.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll make a list of those things and then just delete it at the end of the day because I'm like, got it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Do you delete notes after?

[SPEAKER_02]: I never done that.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm trying to have that all stored in my eye cloud, you know, storage is limited.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good point.

[SPEAKER_01]: I just like have, I've just hoard notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's like random notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I know, yeah, I use my kind of similarly, like, definitely a Vicario G-Song list, grocery list, to do lists, brainstorming, writing down something that I will absolutely forget.

[SPEAKER_01]: If I don't write it down immediately, [SPEAKER_01]: When I go to like art galleries and I want to remember the names of artists, I write them down because I get embarrassed taking photos sometimes in art galleries because I'm really judgmental about other people's photojacking behaviors.

[SPEAKER_02]: I kind of owned it recently.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I will be I'll take a photo of something that I like and I'll just be like whatever.

[SPEAKER_01]: It depends on the gallery and how populated it is, but like it's my new thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've become such like an old cremogen about.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, I got it, I got it.

[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, usually my notes app is like fairly practical for the most part, my use of it, but [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I've been thinking about the notes app and I feel like something I find very interesting about it is that in the grand scheme of our digital lives, it's one of the few places where you're technically creating things, but those things in question aren't really made for public consumption.

[SPEAKER_01]: So like, you know, when you take photos on your phone, like obviously not every photo is going to be shared.

[SPEAKER_01]: But there's sort of this expectation embedded within the apps function that those are photos that will probably be seen by someone else's eyes.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then like, you know, you think about something like Strava and like music apps, all of these kind of elements of our life have social functions now and like we just literally didn't episode about stalking and like stalking your little butterfly playlists.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like the little weird little ways that we're like stalking each other and our behavior is and that can be monitored.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so those behaviors are then kind of being shaped because they become almost content.

[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the notes app obviously has like a group notes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Function.

[SPEAKER_01]: We use them sometimes when we're like joint brainstorming something, but generally speaking like the App has stayed kind of the same over the years and may it never change.

[SPEAKER_02]: May it never change.

[SPEAKER_01]: May it never change.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I really appreciate how [SPEAKER_01]: little innovation has been done for the notes app, because ultimately, and it took me a really embarrassing we long time into working on this episode to kind of reach this epiphany.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the notes app at the end of the day is just a digital notebook.

[SPEAKER_01]: and it feels really dumb to call something analog that's on your phone, but it's one of the most analog aspects of the smartphone life, is it suppose?

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so in thinking about it as a notebook, it did make me think of Joan Dudian's essay on keeping a notebook, which is the first essay or like piece of her writing I'd ever read, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I was just obsessed with it when I was younger, but in the piece, Didian talks about the notebook as the place where we write for like an audience of one in these abstract and like fragmented and you know, sometimes inaccurate terms, that even when we're kind of going back over them as our future selves, we can't always decipher what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER_01]: And [SPEAKER_01]: You know, going through my notes app with that in mind, like I was coming across these like strange things that I couldn't fully remember the context of But then when I was trying to remember and I was looking at the date and I was trying to place what was going on in my life [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of forced me to think about, like, and reflect on those periods in time and reflect why I'd be writing them, or like, why certain things stuck out to me.

[SPEAKER_01]: And this, like, Joan Dedean argues, is the real purpose of the notebook, so she writes [SPEAKER_01]: I think we are all well-advised to keep on nodding terms with the people we used to be, whether we find them attractive company or not.

[SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, they turn up unannounced and surprises, come hammering on the mind store at 4am of the bad night, and a man to know who deserted them, who betrayed them, who is going to make amends.

[SPEAKER_01]: We forget all too soon, the things we thought we could never forget.

[SPEAKER_01]: We forget the loves and the betrayals alike and forget what we've whispered and what we screamed for God who we were.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know, I think there's something really true about that and something that does, I don't know, like, did you kind of write about the notebook and people who keep notebooks in her piece as a specific breed of person, the people who have to compulsively write things down?

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that maybe before we had, you know, the smartphone, [SPEAKER_01]: at our disposal that was the person who was making a conscious choice to care and just end a book and a pen and write things down.

[SPEAKER_01]: But now that is something that I think more people have incorporated into their lives and I think it's kind of a nice practice even if we're not consciously doing it because it's not like a diary.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a it's a keeping of records that are almost not important enough to keep elsewhere.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's very, there's something extremely mundane about it in a way that I find enjoyable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I find it so enjoyable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I love the archival aspect of it because I don't really keep a diary or journal.

[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I did.

[SPEAKER_02]: I have one, but I just don't use it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I never remember, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think, like, since I called out a school like the act of writing, I find kind of physically difficult.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's, I mean, a convinced I have pre-earth right as, but maybe it's, like, my little pre-earth right at hands or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: But, um, [SPEAKER_02]: I find it kind of difficult to write these days with a pen.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I find the notes app, I know that's horrible chimp read of me.

[SPEAKER_02]: But the notes app, yeah, there's something so comforting and delightful about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like I was just at an event where we had to print off our notes apps, like different notes from the notes app, and then kind of scrapbook them, and like annotate them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, yay, finally someone gets to see my notes app.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, there's something really interesting because sometimes you'll write stuff in there and you're like This is brilliant.

[SPEAKER_01]: This is so interesting.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one is Everyone to see what you wrote It feels important enough to write down, but not important enough to actually escape the walls of the notes up.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, except [SPEAKER_01]: when you go through it and you're like, wait, why did I need to write this?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I was going through and I found a note that was like, watching, finding Nemo, making me emotional.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, why did I write this in my notes app?

[SPEAKER_01]: I also don't remember watching, finding Nemo in the past five years, but I did.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, you did.

[SPEAKER_02]: I actually remember this, I feel like.

[SPEAKER_01]: You remember that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so you mentioned it in our shared home.

[SPEAKER_02]: But in our shared home, on the premises.

[SPEAKER_02]: But um.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's nice.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a fleeting thought that I think is beautiful and like you want to maybe you want it to revisit it later or maybe you are pushing me to make a video about it or something.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes, Hannah will get really interested in something and be like, you need to make a video about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I really want her to make a video on Frank Caprov for Christmas, and she won't.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just skipping December this year, but I would love to.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was, I know this year sucks, because I'm skipping October in December, which are the two months that you could do like a themed video.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's a bummer.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I'd love to talk about Frank Caprov, fucking love, it's a wonderful life.

[SPEAKER_01]: next year.

[SPEAKER_01]: So when we think about the notes up in this regard then like as this rare place on our phones for you know introspection why do we think it's been the choice format for the celebrity apologizer?

[SPEAKER_02]: Well I think going back to that concept of intimacy like I think that it kind of belies a sort of like personal touch like it's it's it's it's it's almost like someone wrote [SPEAKER_02]: to show the work that went into it like I think with a PR statement it's hard to kind of authenticate the person's personal hand in the writing of that statement like you know that someone also to for them so it kind of shows that they don't care [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas with the notes habits, it's supposed to kind of reveal that personal element and the labor that goes into writing the note and I think the typos also kind of suggest that as well like, oh, I wrote this myself, you know, I'm a human just like you, you know, you're knocking on a peg when you apologize so [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like Brian Feldman at New York Magazine called them one of the true joys of the post-tabloid age, a perfect example of the democratization of social media in which even the rich and glamorous are forced to use the same cobbled together cludges as the rest of us when they need to publish a lot of texts on a site like Instagram.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well it's like fun even thinking of a celebrity looking at stories like you're like oh they use this app too.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well, no exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, like we were saying, like, there's a real simplicity to the notes app, it almost feels dated, just because it feels like the least optimized aspect of like the iOS lifestyle.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the iOS lifestyle kill myself.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I agree and then also an article in Vanity Fair also pointed out how the notes up apology disrupts the feed of like an otherwise curated celebrity Instagram page.

[SPEAKER_01]: So there's something about it that's almost like humbling because they're like, you know, when a celebrity's trying to [SPEAKER_01]: seem very sincere about something and they post a video and they don't wear makeup.

[SPEAKER_01]: It kind of feels like the equivalent of that It's really like defacing the feed.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's ugly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I would say like there is also a spectrum of [SPEAKER_01]: authenticity when it comes to the notes app statement or apology because, you know, James Charles and Ariana Grande, I think both of those statements felt pretty clearly penned by the people posting them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Ariana's was so unhinged, it had typos.

[SPEAKER_01]: She did delete it afterwards.

[SPEAKER_01]: James Charles is, I mean, what publicists would let you apologize about Nebula tweet and call Africa country.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like presumably not, unless they were really going for authenticity.

[SPEAKER_01]: But although those incidents were pretty early in the lifespan of the notes apopology, so I think they were genuinely just like utilizing this tool because not everyone was on Canva yet and they're like, how do I type something out?

[SPEAKER_01]: and post it, but I think in the cases of both the Kendall Jenner apology and Logan Paul's apology, if you were to read them, they have these very political styles to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like they're so obviously written by somebody that isn't them, like there's no way that it was Kendall Jenner's writing style, it's very formal.

[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know if Logan Paul can write, so I just feel like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, [SPEAKER_01]: pretty ha ha, but within a few years like, people started adopting the format to get messages across that were phrased and created in a way that was very similar to the traditional PR apology or statement.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and one of the first kind of clear examples of this where we knew that that was taking place came in 2017 when Taylor Swift posted a notes app statement to her Instagram addressing her feud with Kim Kardashian and Kanye West.

[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, Kanye West put out the song famous.

[SPEAKER_01]: He said he wanted to sleep with Taylor and because he made that bitch famous and then [SPEAKER_01]: She had a, I can't remember, I think it was a Grammy speech where she was like, don't let anyone take credit for your fame and then Kim and Kanye were like, you approved a lyric and then they posted a video where she's like, is shown like a proving of the lyric, it was doctored, but at the time it really looks like she'd been like lying to everybody.

[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so they were in the, because like, who was in the wrong there?

[SPEAKER_01]: In the grand scheme of things, [SPEAKER_01]: She had said that she took issue with being called that bitch and in the video that they posted They didn't include that, but someone later posted the full unedited version of it where she is addressing the things that she said she took issue with [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think that she was being made to look more deceptive, but it's like, I think everyone's annoying in that context.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_01]: But in 2017, we didn't have that unedited version.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what we have is someone who seems like they're taking this to like fuel this narrative of like, [SPEAKER_01]: Basically like we everyone was already questioning her credibility because the video had leaked, but then in the notes app statement, where Chief famously said she'd like to be excluded from this narrative, it's clear if you look at the top that she'd found it using the search bar and people online sort of deduced the [SPEAKER_01]: that that meant that she'd written this statement far back enough that she had to use the search bar to find it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Even though it was posted pretty quickly after the video so it felt like it was this organic like oh shit all this is going down I'm gonna like quickly respond to this.

[SPEAKER_01]: It was really fast.

[SPEAKER_01]: It seemed like this would something that she knew maybe was going to come out so she'd had this on hand and then also on the image.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like if you write on notes up [SPEAKER_01]: And then you like scroll down and write more.

[SPEAKER_01]: If you scroll down, you can still kind of see the faint remnants of the words that were typed above.

[SPEAKER_01]: So people zoomed in and noticed that more I've been written.

[SPEAKER_01]: So it seems like she'd been working through draft so she'd cut something out that no longer seemed relevant.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it just sort of fed into this narrative that she was lying about her complicity in the whole feud, I suppose.

[SPEAKER_01]: And it just sort of also confirmed to people now who were catching on and meen the firing really the notes app that this is being used in this really disingenuous way to try and make celebrities seem more relatable or like yeah exactly or like I mean lighting their own apologies.

[SPEAKER_02]: To give her like benefit of the day like maybe she also had a conversation with him kind of didn't feel great about it And then immediately was like, oh fuck like I'm gonna have to say something You know what I mean like maybe started good strategy, but maybe not in such a malicious way as people would assume Also the drafts also show that maybe that does humanizer a bit to me too where she's like I know this doesn't work like let's try this but like I don't know I give her a little bit of the benefit of the day out there [SPEAKER_01]: You're such a Taylor Swift-to-pull just now, it's so funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what's happened to me, but I don't know, I feel like I'm someone who anticipates things a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: And kind of gets paranoid about things, or kind of like stressed about things.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll write stuff on my notes out to just have the thing there, in case in a more emotional moment, I don't fuck up.

[SPEAKER_02]: Something else, you don't even like, I don't have to explain it.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I understand maybe why she did that.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also think these are like the communications between some of the biggest celebrities in the world.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously there are publicists and teams mediating in this and their correspondences like obviously.

[SPEAKER_02]: I guess you've definitely like crazed as managing or like talking to people through this.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like talking through this in a way that's like, I don't want to prefer that to her just crazily posting something with a bunch of typos that may be like, I mean, I guess this all made her look bad anyways, but like, you know, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: In this moment, people were already mistrusting of her, and there was this sort of preconceived narrative that she was this very calculating person and sort of like, hmm, fake and all that she was trying to end all these men's careers vibrating songs about how they set up, yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think because she's using this format that people are kind of dubious of, or that feels like if you are a miss using it, feels really manipulative.

[SPEAKER_01]: It did really help her or the notes apology.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, definitely doesn't look great for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And people are definitely right to be suspicious of the no-dop apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: I found this interview for Vice that the writer Hunter Harris did where she spoke to an anonymous celebrity publicist and they broke down the public apology crafting process basically.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the publicist told Harris that timing is very crucial.

[SPEAKER_01]: So enough time should pass basically that the apologies don't seem reactionary, but they should be quick enough that they don't feel like they've been forced out or like encourage a domino effect where people are, you know, mad at you and then they start on her thing like past behavior or like more indiscretions that you've done on social media.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so many times it's been a double take where like Logan Paul, for example, from what I remember, like posted an immediate apology that was not really an apology.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was like horrible.

[SPEAKER_02]: The lead of that then posted another notes apology from what I can remember about that incident.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like it was two apologies.

[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of people have done that, where they'll post the first apology, that's not good enough, then they'll post another apology where they're like, I actually thought this through even more, and here's what I have to say now, and like I wrote that in the rush, so I think, I don't know, it's interesting, and it's in both cases often, then I would tap as used to do so.

[SPEAKER_01]: yeah well it's just like really interesting to think about like the kind of performance of it as opposed they also said that you know they might have a client right a first draft from the heart but that obviously then they will exchange many drafts back and forth with them until it's become [SPEAKER_01]: you know the right apology and they have like checked all the boxes so they're like oh if you know they're first draft isn't like compassion enough or like doesn't take enough responsibility then we'll be like okay it's good your feelings are here but now we're gonna make people actually like accept this apology [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think a huge element of friend bonding has been to like draft up some wall of text to someone who's like, you feel has wronged you And then crowdsource it to your friends and have your friends edit it for you.

[SPEAKER_02]: They mentioned of sal with a friend and have them be like, oh, no, not that like say this instead, you know, and yes, it is got a human like I don't know it's funny [SPEAKER_01]: actually the amount of like drafts in my notes app that are just things that I've sent to boys that I had my help me construct.

[SPEAKER_01]: You and I have done this so many times together.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's my PR team as are you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Usually your life just doesn't matter.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, usually I'm just like, for free, let it pass over, let the scandal move on, the new cycle will continue.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so then they'll also, like, interestingly, like, a range of statements so that if it's being posted on Instagram, say, [SPEAKER_01]: And they have to use multiple slides to kind of get the message across.

[SPEAKER_01]: They'll put all the important parts at the beginning, like they'll address everything on the first page so that if people keep scrolling, they'll at least like see the important bits or like the main.

[SPEAKER_01]: points, which is also interesting to me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they always get kind of general and vague by the end where they're like, I've worked for this and like, I love you, you know.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it's like you had to like hit all the main beats, which I mean, it makes it a lot of sense.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I thought it was fascinating to have someone like come out and admit to this process, even if, you know, as the public, we're already assuming that it's taking place in some capacity.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so now I want to talk a bit [SPEAKER_01]: public apologies in a broader sense and also what we want from them.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm curious like what makes a good apology for you?

[SPEAKER_01]: And do you think that those same standards would be applied to a public apology versus like a private apology or the expectations different?

[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, I feel like I'm in a pretty unique position where like when it comes to public apology, [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say why in a bit, but in terms of just a general apology, I think recognition of what you have done, here are the things that I think I may be like missteped on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Here's what I think I can do better, look me dead in the eyes and be like, I'm sorry, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a lot of talk around people who were like, I'm sorry you felt that way and the way that I kind of like, [SPEAKER_02]: Vades accountability like self accountability so I think like just being like I'm sorry It's important.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I apologize all the time.

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'm Canadian But like I feel like interpersonally I feel like pretty comfortable with apologizing for things You're like admitting what I did wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like if I'm in a conflict with someone I like the conflict and as soon as I can or like I think that [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you'll have like a conflict and then a moment of catharsis that like, oh, no, this is bad and then kind of like a, okay, here's what happened So yeah, I think a recounting of where you missed out recognition of how you maybe think that can change and then I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's good to me [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that that sort of become like the golden standard for apologies for sure.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think especially with for talking about like an interpersonal situation, I think that's probably always the best way to handle it.

[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things about being an adult is learning how to apologize, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: You be amazed at how many adults don't know how to.

[SPEAKER_02]: What was the second part of your question also?

[SPEAKER_01]: So do you think that those standards like for you, would they apply [SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't want anything out of a public apology.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: I just have really turned around on them over the years.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think historically, I was like, you know, I was really into accountability and like I was like, you know, take account for yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I've become extremely cynical towards like pairs of reality and this expectation that like every celebrity needs to be as pure as possible.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think if a celebrity is done something so terrible as to like, you know, inside the criminal justice system, like, [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even want an apology, I want to see, you know, some form of justice happen, I don't know, of a person, but like, you know, like some form of justice.

[SPEAKER_02]: With like, celebrity misdemeanors, I can't bring myself to care, because it would reveal that I have some sort of parasocial relationship where I feel like I'm going to feel better if they apologize for their actions.

[SPEAKER_02]: When ultimately it's like, could you apologizing to, what do you owe the public?

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think what I learned from Lindsay, I know it's a case by case basis, but what I really learned from Lindsay Ellis, [SPEAKER_02]: who, what I believe haven't when we haven't episode about it was that she like defended herself immediately got taking down even more because she like responded to the backlash with what was happening to her really stupid backlash that was happening with her and then I don't think she's ever actually apologized and I actually really appreciated that because for her apologizing with then be recognizing some sort of truth or validity in the criticism of her and it was invalid like I [SPEAKER_02]: Listen to the valid criticism.

[SPEAKER_02]: Listen to the valid criticism.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, none of this fucking criticism is valid.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's all coming out of bad faith.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's all bad and all of you are bad faith actors like across the board.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think, I think that's made me really reticent to apologizing in general.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think every time I apologize, it's just opened up more room and I've done it a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've done it a lot.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just opened up more room for people to then be like, um, it makes you fallible.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it makes it so that you're not like this distant public figure.

[SPEAKER_02]: It puts you in close contact with your audience who then feel like they can do it again or like throw tomatoes at you.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're basically make yourself closer to the tomatoes.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I feel very strongly about putting out a perception of myself to the public that I'm like a do-gitter because I find people who do that end up getting taken down the hardest.

[SPEAKER_02]: like they put themselves up so high that further they can fall and I feel like that was revealed to us like in the first season I think that's most evident you know with like the try guys episode with net former being this kind of like beacon of like good guy sentiment getting just like completely taken down in this like cheating scandal and like and like other people like someone who has not positioned themselves as good of a person would not be able to fall so far like Trisha Patus for example.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, for sure.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's not as palpable, and so I think, yeah, I've learned a lot from that.

[SPEAKER_02]: In my general life, I try to be as good a person as I can, but I don't need the public to know that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I just don't, they don't, I don't know them that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't owe them any sense of my own morality because I just don't feel beholden to them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yes, I've just stopped caring about apologies, because what do I want from this person?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't feel owed anything by them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know them.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, yes, that's my very long-winded answer.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think I and I agree with you, but public apologies, I think, from what I've seen, that's like definitely not the wider public's probably approach to them, I think a lot of people would argue that those standards of like taking accountability and just saying sorry, [SPEAKER_01]: should be present in a public apology, at least like those are the standards that we've like raised for celebrities.

[SPEAKER_01]: So I found this study and admittedly it's like from pre-social media pre-notes app, but it's like from 2000 to 2012, this study published in social psychology quarterly where the authors examined 183 celebrity apologies from those years.

[SPEAKER_01]: And they categorize the Apologies first based on their angle, like their style.

[SPEAKER_01]: So the categories are first people who choose to deny their like wrongdoing that happened at all, or like that they were the one who did it.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then there's people who evade responsibility for it.

[SPEAKER_01]: They try and pin it on someone else.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then there are people who reduce their role or the impact of their actions.

[SPEAKER_01]: then there's people who take a corrective action and promise to do better and the last one is taking a sense of mortification, which is like asking for forgiveness and admitting guilt like wholeheartedly.

[SPEAKER_01]: Based off of what we know about how the public has typically responded to apologies, what angle do we think was most associated with the highest apology rate?

[SPEAKER_02]: Mortification seems to be the one that everyone goes towards.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding [SPEAKER_01]: Then you have context-driven, which are ones which begin with like trying to give context for the event and then you have double-cassing where the offender depicts themselves as both guilty and a victim Hmm, which do you think would be the most effective and like which one do you think had the highest you'll get in the victim?

[SPEAKER_01]: The victim-driven one, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, victim-driven in general, like this is how you guys have been affected by this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I would assume guilty and a victim, but no, yeah, it's a completely normal person like that.

[SPEAKER_02]: The people, you know, the ones people like the most, yeah, I'm assuming guilty arms up.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, I'm so sorry, this is horrible, I'm admitting guilt, and it's all about the victim, and the public is like the swath team outside the house, and the celebrity is like the hands of murderers walking in the house.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: This makes sense to you, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: These two being the most effective.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, it makes sense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Lindsay Ellison, I just referenced her for everything because I do think what happened with her was just completely Parade, I'm shifting for me and like how I approach everything in my career completely.

[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe so deeply cynical But she kind of described it as like people want you to slay your wrists and want to watch you bleed Like that is kind of like metaphorically like in an in person apology you want to feel like you've healed your relationship with someone You want to feel like you can move past it [SPEAKER_02]: But with the audience is asking celebrities to apologize, there's more of an element of like shot in Florida.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like you just want to see someone stripped naked basically.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: Like stripped of all artifice.

[SPEAKER_02]: You want to knock them down below you as an audience.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think the complete vulnerability of, I'm completely in the wrong, and I'm sorry.

[SPEAKER_02]: And like there's no defense.

[SPEAKER_02]: You're not allowed to defend yourself.

[SPEAKER_02]: Is what people want out of that.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like there's an insidious subtext to asking for that [SPEAKER_02]: apology, I think.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so I can see why it would be so popular because I do think audience are acting from that instinct.

[SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't present.

[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we just like we do live in like a very punitive society where if we think someone's guilty of something, we have a very easy time completely stripping love their humanity and a way where it's like, someone you don't see as a human being, you don't really want to know why they did the thing.

[SPEAKER_01]: you don't want to like hear their defense and I think we have this weird kind of instinct to assume that someone trying to mitigate something like their role in something or just like provide context like we always take that as like amoral but I think it's like very natural to want to do that and sometimes called for like sometimes actually knowing the context for something helps us understand it and maybe reduces it's harm at times or like reduces like totally [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like a much less cynical take on the world to assume that people aren't just like acting from a place of malice all the time, and to want to say new ones are important.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and obviously I feel differently versus, you know, about like Logan Paul in the suicide forest to me revealed that he has mildly like, um, [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was more revealing as something systemic of like, oh, people who are engaged in influence or culture have completely lost their humanity and like their ability to see human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: They see everything through screen as a form of content as something to capitalize on.

[SPEAKER_02]: It reveals something about Logan Paul's character that's like very insidious.

[SPEAKER_02]: Versus like Ariana Grande looking some donuts is a little bit bad behavior, but I don't know fucking care.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't care, but we treat it like some mortal offense to us, and it's like because she's not like getting women and we've talked about it forever on this podcast, but are just held to this ridiculous standard that they need to uphold.

[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so generally I think that context is important and interesting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm noisy, I want to know what was actually happening, but most people don't want that again because these people aren't human.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't want them to be human.

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, it just falls back into this thing where, like, we love to be retrospective about things and realize that we should have maybe, like, taken in easier stance or been more understanding, but we love to do it in retrospect and we never just want to hear it at the beginning when someone's like, [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, maybe we could make less of a deal of this if we actually understood it was going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Dude, the people proming up Monaco Lewinsky, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like every single last one of your chimp brains would have been absolutely tearing those woman to shreds in the 90s.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, don't even purchase.

[SPEAKER_02]: You do similar things with other people just under different contexts, thematically different.

[SPEAKER_02]: But you do that exact same behavior with other people.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know?

[SPEAKER_02]: So we, like the CEO cheating scandal, for example.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's just like, we are not different.

[SPEAKER_01]: We get kind of as like a weird thrill out of like chastising the people of the past, but it's like we're constantly kind of teeing things up to like be material for that in the future.

[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, okay one day when we have our heads glued on right, we will see this situation differently, but in the meantime, [SPEAKER_01]: like shame on this person.

[SPEAKER_01]: Then the people ahead of us in the future, or our future selves will shame us for doing such a thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's like one of the most personal, this current day, iteration of the cycles that back then, at least there was a bit more honesty about the [SPEAKER_02]: A trillion times like I hate it, because you're saying you're doing good but when you're just you're kind of just picking up a tomato.

[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I had this really interesting essay about public apologies from the rhetoric perspective, from a rhetoric perspective by Adam Elwinger.

[SPEAKER_01]: He wrote it for the rhetoric society quarterly.

[SPEAKER_01]: The essay was published in 2012 so this is like prenotes apps.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think his observations are even more relevant now, so Elvinger argues that the public apology is a performance of something called metanoia.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's a rhetorical concept for, quote, a profound conversion of the heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: So he writes, public apologists are encouraged to perform a complete change in their public persona or ethos, a change that closely parallels the transformation that animates the Christian conversion experience.

[SPEAKER_01]: In other words, this turning away from sin is rarely an act of will but rather a happening.

[SPEAKER_01]: In a moment of inexplicable clarity, one sees oneself for who one is and in doing so [SPEAKER_01]: Metanoia is nothing short of a wholesale reconstitution of identity.

[SPEAKER_01]: So basically he's arguing that like one of public figure apologizers were basically accepting nothing less of like a full-blown come to Jesus moment where they're like I've had a change of heart.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a new person.

[SPEAKER_01]: I've been reborn.

[SPEAKER_01]: Something's taken over me.

[SPEAKER_02]: And they fit the mold of what we want them to be.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the type of person we imagine them to be.

[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like we've like exercised this like malice from them and like they've become this new person because the old person we could never like accept yeah we could that for like re-except this tainted person who done this thing and I think you know going back to the earlier question of like by celebrities go for the notes apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: I think the notes up apology also like really helps tell this narrative because it basically suggests that this celebrity has maybe been sitting there and just like had something come over to them.

[SPEAKER_01]: They've like realized their wrongdoings.

[SPEAKER_01]: They're being reborn and they need to share it immediately.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like the kind of like, yeah, the immediacy of it, the sort of pressing nature of like, I'm going to forego all of these other avenues of communication and [SPEAKER_01]: type it out from my phone whatever yeah and so I think what the note top does is it like [SPEAKER_01]: reinforces this idea that we need an apology to feel as organic, as authentic as possible, when even though deep down we sort of understand and suspect the fact that an apology is a performance, it's like a mediated process and it's something where you are technically trying to talk your way into the best possible outcome for yourself a lot of the time.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, especially if we're talking about a public apology.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a huge difference between public and interpersonal apologies because public apologies come from public pressure like they're coerced, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, I'm human being having some sort of scrooge in the, you know, with the ghost of Christ's past, like companies this time moment.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that is, that is of your own will.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's of your own will in volition, often.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, public apologies.

[SPEAKER_02]: are inauthentic inherently because they're coming from public pressure and they're asked to do so so quickly that the person doesn't actually have an opportunity to change if we're actually asking them to change they don't have an opportunity to change they're just writing something out like you're saying to kind of change the situation for themselves and ultimately like I don't think that it's rehabilitative in any way like I don't think it's progressive I don't think anything because [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking for my own personal experience the times I've been like widely criticized about things, that thing becomes almost like, um, I hate the word trigger, but it comes a bit of a trigger in my brain, like I start to have a negative association with the thing that I've been criticized about, even if it's something that I love.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, if it's about a movie that like I love, that I spoke about and people didn't like how I spoke about it, I started to dislike that movie.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I've a cause is that I care about so intensely that I like involuntarily start to have a negative response [SPEAKER_02]: Approached the cause, you know what I mean?

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's really disheartening, but I think that goes for a lot of people who are being pressured by a public.

[SPEAKER_02]: I do think that it actually has like the complete opposite effect.

[SPEAKER_02]: And it's literally anti rehabilitative, it's extremely retributive, and it's extremely anti progressive.

[SPEAKER_01]: No, but exactly and I think it's just this thing where when we want people to apologize, we scrutinize the apology for its authenticity, for its sincerity, we scrutinize the person to see signs of they've actually taken to heart what they're saying, but then we've also like you're saying, we've pushed them to this place where they're giving the apology, so we can never be satisfied.

[SPEAKER_01]: So what this really ends up being, and this is what [SPEAKER_01]: where no one's really getting like nobody satisfied here but we can't punish someone for like let's say saying something problematic right or like that kind of an indiscretion so it's like rather than trying to make out that we want to like make that possible we've just like forced them to kind of be punished in a different way like not legally but like socially right and by [SPEAKER_01]: basically stripped themselves down and like beg for our forgiveness.

[SPEAKER_02]: Look at that, there's a due process in the court of public opinion, you know, it's kind of like a coercion confession, like you're like, see what you did was wrong.

[SPEAKER_02]: Say your guilty and it's an immediate emission of guilt.

[SPEAKER_02]: When like, okay, Ariana Grande thinks she's guilty for looking some fucking donuts in a moment that she was being surveilled without.

[SPEAKER_02]: knowing is like yeah what is that you know what is that what are we asking for what we want that's like us to just restore we're like forcibly restoring Ariana Grande's image for her you know and it's punitive [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_01]: And then also, like, I think it keeps us in this state of paranoia.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, Elwanger kind of articulates, as he says, looking within the public response to apologies and metanoia is the sphere of what cannot be known.

[SPEAKER_01]: And both the apology and metanoia, the only evidence of the inward movement is the testimony of the profess convert.

[SPEAKER_01]: So we're like taking them at their word or like, we're sort of forced to.

[SPEAKER_01]: But then I think that [SPEAKER_01]: about these apologies already and their authenticity and yet people are trying to find these more creative ways to like obscure the elements of it that [SPEAKER_01]: They're like artificiality like it's just making us more stress and more distrusting and I guess I'm curious like do you think our suspicions towards public apologies have forced them to become more manipulative like using the note tap for example or Have they gotten so manipulative that they forced us to become more suspicions like are we suspicious because celebrities are always trying to like [SPEAKER_01]: pull an over and as or like do they feel kind of like they have no other choice because we're so skeptical of them.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's like a cyclical thing but I or like a chicken and egg thing but I do think that yeah I'm leaning towards our suspicion is driving the kind of more manipulative elements of it because the celebrities didn't have to apologize I wouldn't apologize like you know it's it's and so I think they're forced into more and more sophisticated modes of [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: Statement masking is all the intensity, and that calls us as to be like, hmm, like trying to detect the authenticity there, which is funny, you know, like people's zooming in on the remnants of work text from Taylor Swift's apology is like, okay, that's insane.

[SPEAKER_02]: We also, we want celebrities to be bad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ultimately, we actually want them to be bad because we enjoy it.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, it's like, Lindsey L's called like mask off.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we're constantly trying to unmask people as like the Scooby-D villain.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Ariana Grande is not how she says she was.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's not a sweet little music theater girl.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's actually a donut liquor.

[SPEAKER_02]: Unpiqued your audience donut liquor, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Logan Paul, I was like, okay, no one should be shocked here.

[SPEAKER_01]: There's no mask on Logan Paul, Logan Paul's addiction.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he's there that was obvious to everyone from the beginning or should have been.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that felt like kind of the natural evolution of his behavior.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I think the funny thing there is trying to like somehow retroactively mask that by putting out a notes up apology, which is supposed to seem very authentic, but then having someone write it in a tone of voice that is so clearly not Logan Paul's, but it's like no person would read that and thank you, wrote it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I also think we're coming out of like this period where the goal of the celebrity in the 2010s was almost to be as quite an authentic as possible.

[SPEAKER_01]: Like that was a selling point.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so we were really obsessed with trying to obscure the hand of the publicists and of the team.

[SPEAKER_01]: We were trying to make things seem more genuine, you know, are you on a grandeur?

[SPEAKER_01]: Also, just like, for example, used to be on social media in this really messy capacity at the time of the donut-licking thing.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, was I following O-snap?

[SPEAKER_02]: It's already back in like freshman year of high school, part YouTube channel, where she post covers and probably makes like somewhat offensive jokes.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I loved it.

[SPEAKER_01]: I watched all of it.

[SPEAKER_01]: She was tweeting about Pete Davidson's dick in like 2018.

[SPEAKER_01]: And like, oh yeah, it's literally been seven years and that just wouldn't happen today.

[SPEAKER_01]: Well now we just turned around to a fucking weirdo.

[SPEAKER_02]: She talks with an accent that she doesn't have, because we really, she's like, the masks, she's just wearing like five masks.

[SPEAKER_01]: For sure, she's definitely a mascara, but I think even thinking about Taylor Swift, like, I don't think Taylor Swift would have posted that no double apology at all today.

[SPEAKER_01]: She's kind of like, for gone any direct communication, or she's been very selective about how she communicates.

[SPEAKER_02]: She's wearing any masks, although maybe she came out to win a mask off, because now she's a basic like anthropology girl, and that felt a little mask off actually, in the best way.

[SPEAKER_01]: perhaps.

[SPEAKER_01]: But I think like do you agree with this?

[SPEAKER_01]: I think we've returned to like a more classic motive celebrity after you know the 2010s felt like this period where celebrities were kind of toying with like how accessible to make themselves.

[SPEAKER_01]: Social media was new.

[SPEAKER_01]: We as a public wanted people to feel really wanted them to feel authentic.

[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't want them to feel [SPEAKER_01]: like these like otherworldly beings that they felt like, especially in like the 20th century, do you kind of think that maybe we're going back to that because people saw what could happen if you get a little too comfortable with the public, I suppose?

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, and I'm down for it.

[SPEAKER_02]: These people are not us.

[SPEAKER_02]: They are not attainable.

[SPEAKER_02]: They live completely.

[SPEAKER_02]: They live lives that are so completely different from our own.

[SPEAKER_02]: Are they human?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[SPEAKER_02]: But like, they're not attainable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need these fucking people to be attainable.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't need them to be one of me.

[SPEAKER_02]: I want them to do their work and I want to see it when it comes out.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't want to peek behind the curtain.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't really care.

[SPEAKER_02]: I've stopped caring.

[SPEAKER_02]: I feel too old.

[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes I like a bit of celebrity gossip, such as Jessica Chastain sits by the phone and has no friends like that's funny.

[SPEAKER_02]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like celebrities are not trying as hard to like pander to us, and I also think that the pandemic played a role in this when like, it just became so clear the lines between the halves and the halves, not, but then having the celebrities be like, we're just like you, we're also locked down, but like, in our mansions, um, but trying to go down.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like just like they were like look at this like democratizing thing that's happened where even we can't like go to a private island or whatever but I think people have grown increasingly resentful towards that and I think that the notes up apology is sort of like a microcosm of that because it like started off as this thing that felt like there was a lot of like understandable reasons why somebody would use it and like why it could be interesting or like [SPEAKER_01]: Productive form of communication, but like it quickly became something that like one got abused And also something that we all became incredibly cynical about if that makes sense and I think just like I don't know fed into this This weird thing where like we were demanding people to feel like human beings But we refuse to treat them like human beings.

[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose it's also just like ultimately old news like you just once something's been done too many times [SPEAKER_01]: which leads me to, like, my final part of the discussion, which as I want to talk about the current state of the apology.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because I [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like no one's really talking about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: But the Instagram story has sort of replaced the notes up as people's way of addressing the public head-on and it's interesting to me because I think if the public was dubious about the notes up apology, then Instagram stories to me are even worse.

[SPEAKER_01]: Because one of the aspects of the notes up apology that I thought worked really well [SPEAKER_01]: in arguing on its behalf is the way that they kind of like aesthetically compromised the issuers Instagram feed like we were saying earlier and like especially if you're thinking about an apology as this like humbling moment or whatever and we want people to perform it in such a way then there's this suggestion you know when someone posts like an ugly notes app screenshot that someone has like sacrificed something in order to get their message across [SPEAKER_01]: But an Instagram story disappears after 24 hours, so I guess just thinking about what we want out of an apology and like this whole discussion about like we want people to sort of kneel before us and beg for forgiveness There's something so blase about an Instagram story.

[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like that's how people are communicating with the public these days [SPEAKER_01]: It's about not talking about it.

[SPEAKER_02]: I like when they post what they're rainbow, do you fall background?

[SPEAKER_02]: So for the Instagram brand background, like, give it to me, I want that.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I like that it's a piece of a femurad.

[SPEAKER_02]: Those people were deleting their apologies anyways, you know?

[SPEAKER_01]: Like, but I think it's just, why is no one talking about it?

[SPEAKER_01]: But I thought about this.

[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I feel like I have a 10-foil hat on my hikes and like, no one's talking about it.

[SPEAKER_01]: No one's, think piece to this to death.

[SPEAKER_01]: But it's, it's a weird that that's become this, [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I guess coming out of an era where apologies felt one, like they were happening so frequently and also they were being so heavily scrutinized that we started getting really meta about like how to write a good apology and when someone wrote a good one, we were like now that's how you apologize folks.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's playing into the fact that [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're saying, the celebrities have turned, they've become more obscure to us, they've become a bit more opaque.

[SPEAKER_02]: So no one's really thinking about the notes app as much.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like also a story, yes, is a femoral, and it's like a covert, like it doesn't exist on the grid forever.

[SPEAKER_02]: But it can also be screenshoted, and like often they are screenshot and posted to Twitter.

[SPEAKER_02]: So it doesn't feel like that far away from the notes app in a way, especially if the notes app's being posted to grid and being deleted two days later, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know.

[SPEAKER_01]: I see it as just like it's probably to me it's just uninteresting in my personal opinion Like I just maybe because I'm facing my whole character, but like I just don't care I felt like this was a really cool You can't call it an interesting and undermine my in my final thoughts [SPEAKER_02]: I think that we, we, so agree to disagree, but I also have my pretty harsh stance as about this in general that I'm sure many people agree with.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not against people making an apology on a story.

[SPEAKER_01]: I'm more baffled that the culture that has felt so kind of bloodthirsty [SPEAKER_01]: about people's apologies and the art of apologizing has somehow been overlooking this and because we're seeing a major turn.

[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's like a we're seeing a major turn in our culture.

[SPEAKER_02]: We don't celebrities, celebrities in my opinion.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh my god, I can't stop seeing it.

[SPEAKER_02]: Celebrities or celebrities are more a pig and the public is petite.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's just ultimately what's going on.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like I just don't think, I think we're just coming out of that era a bit, you know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Post 20, 20, I think things have really taken a different turn.

[SPEAKER_02]: And honestly, like, I'm kind of glad to see it go.

[SPEAKER_02]: Because I just, like, I'll never so talking about how, just stop hearing about celebrity so much, God.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just exhausting.

[SPEAKER_02]: Celebrity, culture is exhausting.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[SPEAKER_02]: And I'd really like you to write me a notes-up apology for responding LOL to all my texts.

[SPEAKER_01]: to my fellow Americans.

[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, I am deeply and extremely proud to be an American, and I need to learn to our communicate better.

[SPEAKER_01]: As an advocate for abbreviations, [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's a shame that we, as a country, have gotten so far away from the message that we think that LOL is anything less than a genuine expression of, laughing all about, and the joke of our friends.

[SPEAKER_01]: And as an advocate for healthy eating, [SPEAKER_01]: I think that by typing fewer things in a day, what we're really doing is saving more time for chopping vegetables and eating salads.

[SPEAKER_01]: And so, to finish takes off, I'd like to apologize to the country of Africa and me and Maya and [SPEAKER_01]: And I promise, I will not do it again.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's the way it's like, thank you.